The Team House - Ed Kugler Marine Scout-Sniper in Vietnam, Ep. 57

Episode Date: August 29, 2020

Ed Kugler served as a Marine Scout-Sniper in Vietnam. After seeing action during the uprising in the Dominican Republic, Ed volunteered for Vietnam and was trained in the second scout-sniper class run in country. From there, he began a two year odyssey hunting and killing NVA along the DMZ with North Vietnam. His book, Dead Center, is a brutal but real account that tells it like it is. In our interview, Ed talks to us about war and the journey home. Dead Center: https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Center-Kugler-Market-Paperback/dp/B00IJ0P2WE Firefights of the Mind: https://www.amazon.com/Firefights-Mind-When-Demons-Follow-ebook/dp/B00PWZ7AVU Support the stream on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/m/TheTeamHouse The podcast version of the stream is here: https://soundcloud.com/user-796052562/lrrprangers-in-vietnam-with-kenn-miller-ep-56 SubReddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here: https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links): https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Being a parent can be really challenging. It's normal to feel uncertain about whether you're doing the right things to raise healthy and happy children. That's why Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five with free support services to help them build confidence in their parenting journey. Everyone deserves to have someone they can turn to for support with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. Being a parent can be really challenging. Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five with free support services to help them on their parenting journey.

Everyone deserves someone they can turn to for help with parenting. Visit Child and Family Resource Network.org today. Okay, we are live. I am here with our special guest, Ed Cougler, on the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy. I just recently read Ed's book, Dead Center. it is about his time, his two years as a Marine Scout sniper in Vietnam, 1966 and 67, up on the demilitarized zone.

And there's a lot to unpack on this book. I finished reading it this week. I was really impressed with Ed's book, his combat experiences, and really just the rawness of his memoir that is really written as he experienced it. It's not a glamorized or glorified account of war by any stretch of the imagination. It kind of tells it is and how he lived it as a young man. So, Ed, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you.

I'm looking forward to it. Appreciate it. Could you start by just telling us a little bit about where you grew up, how you came into the Marine Corps, where you came out of? Yeah, I grew up in a little town in Ohio. It was called Lock 17. It was the 17th lock, they say, on the old Erie Canal. And we had about 75 people there. But I was surrounded in that little town by veterans from World War II.

So I grew up with a lot of people that, you know, impressed me and impacted me. And I actually, there's no kidding, I actually did a book report in the fifth grade called The Story of the U.S. Marines, and from that time forward, I wanted to be a Marine. So two weeks after high school graduation, I was in Paris Island. And that was quite a shock. Yeah, I thought that whole part of the book was really interesting, Ed, and you were talking about how you sort of went to Vietnam chasing the Marines that you read about in fifth grade. I did. I actually did. I got my first combat was down in Santa Domingo in April in 1965. They had a little uprising there and we were on a Caribbean cruise headed to Panama for jungle training. And so we did a landing there and went in the city. And so I got wounded there along with 36 other Marines. We had four killed in about. It all happened in about four hours.

It was over after that, primarily. And when I was laying on the hospital ship, I thought maybe I made a mistake. You know, you didn't get hurt doing this stuff. You know, that was a very interesting part of the book for me because the uprising of the Dominican Republic at the time is something that you sort of read about in passing in other books or articles. But reading, you were the first. first-hand account that I had ever read of what happened that day. And like, you were really

in the shit. Like, you came in there and they dropped ramp and like you were under heavy machine gun fire in the middle of the capital city. Like, like there was some serious stuff that you were in. Yeah, it was real intense, like I said, for, you know, probably the most intense for a couple of hours, you know. And yeah, I mean, they put us in, well, we got pinned down, cross into old. Santa Domingo and then they brought Amtrak's in and picked us up and turned around and went right dropped the gates right in front of that 30 cow on the roof and I followed one of my fire team leaders. I was a grunt at the time and I followed him through a plate glass window. He put his rifle out of crash, crash through because we had to get out of the street. And there were

was a guy and his wife and two little kids in there. And we kind of dusted ourselves off and left, you know. I mean, it was, you know, first time it was just chaos. You know, it's always chaos, but you learn to live with it. But this was a shock, you know, because there was live bullets fly. But how come that experience didn't deter you? And you continued on. you actually volunteered for Vietnam.

I did. I came home from Santa Domingo and was in the hospital short time. And I don't know, the guys from Vietnam started returning to Lejeune, which didn't really supply people for Vietnam. You know, Lejeun was kind of for Europe. And they started coming home talking about, you know, helicopter or a jet setting fields on fire and you know just all the glory of war you know that's not real but you hear it and uh yeah uh something in me just said i got to go and so uh

i volunteered and was uh was gone um pretty quick after that took about six weeks i was on the west coast and went through jungle training in the desert you know i didn't have a jungle in California. And it was real fast. And then I went over on a ship. And then we went into the Nang. And then we were supposed to be replacements. Our ship was 900 Marines.

And they were supposed to be replacements for people rotating home or killed. And that's when the staff sergeant, Gondy sergeant, that was starting the scups, that's when they came around that morning looking for volunteers. And then how did you, as a grunt, you know, arriving, I mean, you know, fresh in Vietnam, how did you find your way into scout snipers? Because it was one of those things where it was one of those specialty positions that the military, both Army, Marines, I think, you know, that we we did away with after every single war. Yeah.

And they, the Marines had done that as well. And they were just, when I arrived, they were just starting to start to scout snipers up again. And so I was, these gunny and the staff sergeant came around to each. We, you know, we were organized in platoons, the 900 of us, you know, we were laid out on the beach to get our name called to go, which grunt outfit we were going to. And to each group, these guys came around making a pitch that they were starting a scout sniper school. And you had to have already been an expert on the rifle range. You had to already be qualified as an expert, which I was. And then you had to pass an interview with these two.

And so I honest to God made a calculated decision that I didn't know what that was exactly. but I knew it was probably better than charging machine guns. That's what we didn't send to me. And I thought, I don't know what this is, but give me a little more control. And that was my, honestly God, that was my motivation. And so there was. That may have been the difference between you being already a combat veteran and a lot of the other guys standing in the formation that day.

is kind of like you had already charged into machine gun fire, kind of like, yeah, I don't know about all that. Yes. And out of all those Marines, there was only, there was about two dozen volunteers as all. And then they chose 11 of us. And one of the reasons I know that, because I'm still friends with the staff sergeant,

again, he's retired Marine now. But one of the reasons, I was chosen was that I had combat experience. So we, that afternoon, we were put on a helicopter and flown up to Fubai, which is just outside away. And that's where the fourth Marines were. And so it was a regimen at that point, the sniper platoon was regimental level reported under the colonel. And the design was that we would be divvied out to the three battalions of fourth Marines. The way it worked out, we'd be divvied out to whoever wanted us, you know. So we ended up sometimes with South Vietnamese, sometimes. I never worked with the U.S. Army. I only worked, but I worked with a lot

of different marine units, you know. But our training, we got there and our training was really simple. We were the first group ever trained in a combat zone, snipers. And so we had a range set up in a little draw outside of, you could see our base at Fubai, but we'd go out there and all our targets were, was they had engineers go out and put tent stakes, those metal tent stakes in, and they'd put a 105 canister shell, canister, a canister of, and they'd put a of an artillery shell on each stake. And it started at 300 and went 400, 500, all the way out to 1,000.

And the way we worked, we'd go out at 0600 every morning. And we'd lay there with a partner. And I'd shoot for 30 minutes, each shoot for 30 minutes. Then he'd shoot, then I shoot it. We did that until 1,600 every day for a month. And that was that was sniper school. And it was only the second course run in Vietnam, right? Yes, yeah.

There was one at Chulai before us, which is south of the name. And then we were the second. And we were supposed to have 30, I think it was 30 or 32 snipers in the platoon, but we honestly never have more than 18 or 19. The whole two years, I was that reason. And go ahead. I was just going to ask if you could talk a little bit about the weapons platforms that you had at that time because it was quite early on in the program. Yeah, the choice of rifles at that time was either Winchester Model 70, 30, out six, and it had a four-inch extended barrel on it.

And it had a floating barrel. And it had a real heavy stock. And they called it a bowl barrel. It was real heavy. And it weighed about 17 or 18 pounds. It was not light. Wow, yeah. And the other rifle was an M1.

That was it. That was our two choices. And then Scopes, you had a choice of a nine power unirdle. It's a real long, narrow scope. And it just said Marine on it. It was a 3 by 9 variable. And it just said Marine. I don't know who made that.

I took the 3x10. I took the Model 70 and the 3x9. And my partner took a Model 70 when we first started at a Unerdle. A lot of guys liked the Unirdle. I like 3x9 myself. And that was that was the platform. I mean, that's all there was. The choices.

Now, the ammo was all match ammunition, you know, sent in from the states, you know. But beyond that, the only other training we got, it was kind of funny. They sent us to landmine warfare and demolition school for four hours. and they authorized us to go out and take movie traps, you know, part, whatnot. And so, and we had, I think it was a day. It wasn't more than that. A few hours of Forward Observer School.

And we were permitted. I got pretty good at it. We were permitted to fall in, you know, artillery. mainly artillery, but I called in the New Jersey battleship one time, air strikes. You know, it was the Wild West, quite frankly. It was it was the Wild West. And this was, you know, and I like to hear your take on it, of course, but I mean, 1966 was, this is sort of the period where like big army and Marine Corps are starting

to get in there, but it's not super built up yet. No, it was building up, you know, and in early, I want to say it was, well, in the summer of 66 was the, in June, I think, late June or early July was, I know that I don't know the Army's thing down below, but in the Marines, the first battle with the North Vietnamese happened in June or it was either, it was Operation Hastings, which was a meat grinder that I've been. surprise no one ever wrote about, you know, it, they, my, one of my drill instructors, actually, I saw him in Vietnam after Operation Hastings, and he ended up getting the Medal of Honor in Operation Hastings. Wow. And, and I saw, this is kind of a funny aside, but I saw him, I was with force reconnaissance in the mountains for Operation Nation. So I saw it more as an air thing than I did. You know, I wasn't in that battle.

But what had happened was they had, I had actually talked to Sergeant McGinty, it's his name, John McGinty. And I talked to him years later, but they had went in, recon had went in to the LZ and scoped it out. And they said four choppers could land. at a time. And between the time they scoped it out and the time the battle went in, the Marine Corps had shifted from the old UH 34, you know, the gas job with the high engine and everything in the front to the twin blade, sea knight, which is like a Chinook. And they were bigger. And so when the four

Chinooks or you know the sea nights went into the LZ they all hit blades and they went down in the LZ and so they were they were all cut off you know and that's with the battle that McGinty won the Medal of Honor as did he was there with him by Gilleske and they were taped in there for three days and and so in my book now this is years later you know in my book I mentioned that after that battle, we were all back at Dong Ha. And here comes, McGinty was walking along, you know, and I described him in the book as ashen face, you know, because he was. It was a hideous experience, you know. And so I was traveling. I used to travel a lot for business.

And I was traveling. I was watching History Channel one night. And they were featuring different Medal of Honor. So here's John McGinty, you know, talking about that. So I called the Medal of Honor Society and said, is there a way I can send my book? And they said, yeah, send it here. So fast word about three months. I forgot all about it. And I'm home one Friday.

And the phone rings at like 8 o'clock in the morning. I answer it. And I hear this, just like boot camp, but I hear this. Googler. And I said, yeah. And he says, McGinty here. And I said, for real. and he goes for eff and real.

And so we had a really fun conversation. But the first thing he said to me is what the F is this ashen face BS. And so we got to laugh about it. But it was an adventure to say to the least. That's unreal. And it's, well, I mean, I'm sure we'll get into it. but I mean, it was cool to hear about how so many of you guys stayed in touch after the war. Do you know, a lot of the guys after Vietnam, they were just kind of like,

there's no closure for anything. They were just out there on their own, you know. And it sounded like you guys stayed pretty tight after the war. We did. We still get together with those of us that are left, you know, still get together once a year, you know, at least, and talk on the phone and stay in touch. We had one of our guys committed suicide probably two years after he came home, you know, and he only lived a short distance from me. And so, you know, I was able to be there.

But, you know, he just had some demons that he was trying to kill with alcohol and drugs, and he just never did. Ed, I was wondering if you could tell us about your first patrol, which I thought was very interesting that you, you know, early on in your sniper career, you were supporting force recon and going out with them. Yeah, that was, when we, you know, quote, graduated sniper school, you know, there wasn't anything formal or anything, but we were now officially put up for grabs, you know, the unit could, And our gunny and Saff sergeant, they would try and sell us, you know, places. And because it was all new, you know, and they didn't, there wasn't really doctrine, you know. And so my partner and I, he came from the grunts. And he had actually been in Operation Hastings, not at Hastings, too, one before that. But he had been already been.

So I picked him as a partner because he was really just, the thousand-yard stare thing, you know, is real. But he was kind of, you know, they say a guy's a functioning alcoholic, you know. Well, Hutch was kind of a functioning thousand yards stare. He just didn't care, you know. That's honestly, so we held her hand up. when they said they wanted two force recon snipers. And all I knew about force recons at time was, you know, they're kind of our badass.

You know, that's about all I knew. And so we went over to sign up with them and stuff, and they, they, very professional people, you know, very professional. And their patrols were intricately planned. And even back then they had aerial photographs. of the LZ we would go into and you run to this tree, you run. And so we go out that day and we got inserted about 1,600 hours probably. And the plan was you always, for about an hour, you book it, you know, from the LZ.

And when we went in, when I read about some of the things going on in Iraq and Afghanistan stuff, on the pole because when we were inserted as force recon, we had a spotter plane with us. We had our insertion chopper. We had two gun ships and we had two phantoms, you know, that could drop bombs and, you know, so they were on station every time we were inserted, you know. And so if you got in trouble, stuff was right above you. So we get out of the chopper and start booking it. And they assigned us.

There was five recon, two of us. And they always sign off in pairs or threes. If you get hit real bad, you split up and come back together. And so I was assigned at the back end with pale and Charlie. And so I was next to him. He was last. Now I'm packing a 30 out six, five round, you know. bolt action and nothing else because the Marine Corps wouldn't get, we asked for 45s, you know, to carry with our sniper rifles.

And that wasn't in the manual, you know, so we couldn't, we never got them, you know. And anyway, we took off for, and we were on the ground probably five minutes along this stream, just like we were told. and pretty soon a strafing run goes right over ahead and these 20 millimeter shells are falling on you know and he was shooting in front of us but they they had spotted a goop patrol out in front of us and so we all hit the deck you know when that happened and and honestly i'm thinking well you know we've been exposed you know they're going to pull us out you know and the point man on recon simply pulled out of machete and made a left turn straight up this mountain and hacked his way up this mountain. And we, I was dying because it was my first patrol, you know, and the heat and my legs.

And we went to the top of this thing and it leveled out. And we took our first break and it was literally an hour and just took our break. and had sentries out there and everything. And we got hit from behind. They had been following us the whole time. And I was pumping that bang, bang, you know, with my 30-odd-6. And two recon guys got hit pretty bad.

It happened real fast and it was over real fast. And I took a round through my pack. ruined some sea rats but other than that. And so that was that was the first patrol that we we went on. And then that night, because that was very, it was getting dark and we were in the, you know, deep in the jungle and the canopy and everything. So what they did was we crawled into this.

This was a recon kind of thing. We crawled inside this thicket. and laid shoulder to shoulder opposites, you know, one facing one way, one the other. And every other person was to stay up all night, you know, guarding because we couldn't get our wounded out. And so I'll never forget that I ended up next to my partner, Hutch, you know, which I said. He was a wonderful guy in combat. And so I stayed up, you know, in my hour and I hit him, you know, next to me. And said, okay, it's your turn.

It's supposed to be hour on hour off. And he says, okay, I got it. Or he whispered, you know, okay, I got it. And so I, he didn't get up. And so touch. And he finally said to him. me, think about it, Coog. We crawled in this ticket. They'll wake us up coming in. Don't worry about it. I stayed up all friggin' night. And he slept away. This was Zulu in your book.

Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's who it was. And that's just how he was. But he was there when it counted, you know, he was, he was a different guy, but he, uh, he just died about a year ago. But so then the next morning, you know, they came and they, they, uh, we had to winch these guys out, you know, because the canopy was 60 feet or something. And, and, um, the rest of the patrol was somewhat uneventful, you know, but what happened was when they winch these guys out, they took our sniper rifles with them and gave us their M14, you know. which we felt better about, quite frankly, you know, but, and so when we got back, because you never talked out there,

you had little pads and you wrote notes and showed people, you know, you did not talk because we were 30, 40 miles from families, you know, and we take about an hour for help to get to you. And so being a parent can be really challenging. It's normal to feel uncertain about whether you're doing the right things to raise healthy and happy children. That's why child and family resource, Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five

with free support services to help them build confidence in their parenting journey. Everyone deserves to have someone they can turn to for support with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. When we got back, we recon guys were happy with us. They told us, hey, you know, we trust you, you know, this and that. And so we said, well, how about when we make a deal? we'll go out with you next time, but give us M14, you know, or give us something, and we'll leave our sniper rifles here.

We just didn't tell our sergeants, you know. And it was the best thing we ever did because those three months, I worked with them for three months. We'd have patrols and then you'd have a couple days off and then go back out for eight to ten days and a couple days off and back out. And just incredibly professional guys who, I learned so much from the, I applied when I got my own sniper patrols later. But funny, another funny, when they had an armory

that they had all the fancy stuff at the time, you know. And so they took us down the armory about two hours for our next patrol and they said, you can leave your sniper rivals here, we'll take care of them. And you got your pick, you know. So Hutch and I picked Thompson submachine guns. You know, the 45 caliber.

shark like World War II Thompson's yeah yeah that's what they were and they had the big 30 round mag you know and oh the drum bag or no not the drum they had the the stacked magazine oh it wasn't a drum it was this giant you know this magazine well that sucker's heavy you know and well then you know they always tried to carry enough ammo you know you wouldn't know but but the theory was carry enough for an hour of firefight you know because it takes an hour for help you know So they may just carry all these magazines of these friggin' this Thompson, you know. I'm not kidding you. I was in good shape. I jumped out at Chauber. The Chauber has never landed. You know, they'd get close, you know, and you'd jump three or four feet.

I'd buckle my knees. All that weight, you know. And so we only carried those one patrol. We said, give us the court feet. We're good, you know. And they got a kick out of that. I think they already been through that. but it was fun to have it one time and get a picture. As a sniper in Vietnam, I mean, I'm interested to hear your perspective because sniper engagements are not necessarily possible in the jungle. So I was just curious, you know, how did this work out?

What was the employment of snipers in Vietnam? How were you guys able to operate? Like you were talking about how you were happy to set aside the bolt gun and use an M-14. Well, how did that pan out in the long run? Well, in the early going, most of my first year, well, the first three months was with recon. And, you know, what we realized, you know, recons out there to recone, you know, so they don't want a shot fired, you know, because then they know where they are. So that's why we negotiated this deal and had fun for three months.

And then our compatriots back at the platoon, you know, we're all getting killed. you know, and we weren't because we were recovered. And so we decided to go back. So the early deployment was all you would do, it was not a good use, you know. You had a unit partner and you would be assigned to an infantry unit for a operation, you know. And then you're just out there and they would yell snipers up if they saw somebody. and, you know, you do your deed, you know. The problem with infantry, as you would know, is they aren't quiet, you know.

I mean, they're not, you know. Yeah, after, you know, you guys, like you guys as snipers, you were like what, six-man patrols, the previous guest we had on was a lurp who also six-man patrols mostly. Once you get above that, the noise, you know, you're talking about. about a platoon of infantry, 40, 50 guys, forget it. Yes. And so we did that for several months, you know, and you have limited success with that because for us,

it was probably a little safer because we were in numbers, you know, versus two of us or something. We ran a few two-man patrols, but they were pretty short outside of bases and stuff like that. And but then we got this idea, why can't we do, similar to recon, you know. And so we had a colonel at the time, and this was my, you know, I'd re-uped for six months. And so it was in May of 67, we proposed to the regimental commander, this colonel, that we run our own patrols,

just like recon and whatnot. And he approved it, you know. So we started with a four, well, a five-man team, sometimes four, and then it would range from four to six over that. And that's what in the book, our radio call time was the roads. And so today they probably wouldn't like to have that. Let me share some of the pictures that you were nice enough to share with me. I just want to put them up so people can see you guys. that's how we look

and so tell me about the rogues who were these guys well there were different ones over my time there you know but because we we we on it we didn't have any we had snipers killed

but the rogues we had several wounded but none killed but I'm on the right in that picture the guy next to me is called him red He was a red head and red beard and all that. And the guy next to him was from Mulberry, Florida, a poor gas station placed. The first time I called him after Vietnam and talked to his mother, I couldn't understand her.

It was so deep south. I mean, I'm serious. And then the one on the left was with a shorter time, but he was one of the roads. And he was from a little town in Pennsylvania. and then the guy taking the picture in that one was probably he just passed away last year. We called him boo for water boo. He was a big Iowa farmer.

But I tell you, we were all just middle America, you know, it was no special training. We had one guy that was my point man toward the end who had an MBA and was drafted, so he chose the Marines, and they wouldn't even go to office or school, and he said, no. And so he ended up volunteering to be a sniper. And so. Was that a debt cord?

Well, no, that was, debt cord is a member of Mensa. And he's not in this picture. But he spent a lot of time with us. And he was fascinated with explosives. And so we let him be our demo man, you know. And we'd make him walk a little far from us, because if he'd be. took a sniper around, he was going up. He carried so much demolition and stuff.

And it's funny, you know, he's been talking now for 50 years about the coming revolution, and I think it might be here. But he's still alive. He's in Indianapolis, but he has a couple of degrees. And last time I talked to him, he was driving a peach of truck to stay in shape. but he's smarter than you can imagine taught himself Vietnamese actually. Right, right. He was your translator.

He was my interpreter. Yeah, he was my interpreter. Yeah, but boy, you couldn't trust him too much with those explosives, but he was fun to have around. Yeah, it was like, you know, definitely a motley crew that you recruited, you had it in the, yeah, the rogues. I mean, very, like, interesting personalities, to say the least. Yeah, now this is the one on the left is the one that they wanted to be a Marine officer. And he was from Dubuque, Iowa. He now lives down Nashville, North Carolina.

But he was a tough young guy and a wonderful point man. And the one in the middle is the one in the book called Tomo. And we really called him. The reason the names got screwed up was 48. hours before my manuscript was due, some lawyer from random house calls me and said, do you have authorization from all these guys? You know, and I, knowing what I know now, I would have just lied and said I did. But, but, but so I, they made me change the, even the nickname, you know. Wow. So, so really his name was, we called him Motto, because when he arrived, he's 5'7,

way 2-10. He's a bad motor scooter, you know. And he's in the middle. He died of brain cancer, I think, three years ago. I'm sorry to be with him. Got to be with him at the end. And that's me on the right. But it was a motley crew. It was, we had a spell where, you know, we were authorized, quote, to disarmed movie traps, you know. So the sky. out part of our job was sometimes to walkpoint for grunts and stuff. And so we, you know, we'd go walk point. And if we found a booby trap, you know, the protocol you're supposed to set it, yell fire in a hole, you know, all that crap, you know. And so we got sick of that. And so we would simply go, we'd take turns and we would simply go up with a crag grenade and lay it by

the booby trap and run like hell, you know, and it saved a lot of time. And the grunts really kept their distance, quite frankly, from this. Yeah, you guys were pretty balzy about some of those booby traps, and like you related in the books, some incidents where, like, guys would get the tripwire, like, hung up in their bootlaces and stuff. It was like, oh, my God. Yeah, I was, the one guy there for. from Florida that I mentioned.

His actual name was Poo, the last name was Hood. And that's what we called him. But he was, he was a cat in the jungle. He was unbelievable playing. And he, going down a slick morning,

just a little position, we were trying to go down to get the position. We always tried to position ourselves before daylight, because you got most of your shots the first hour of daylight, you know. and he slipped. And, you know, you couldn't talk out there.

And I was, I always walked second. He always walked first. And so I had to slide myself down. And he whispers to me that I got a trip wire on my boot. And he had a trip wire on his boot. And I was right above him. And, of course, he's below. It would have got us both.

And there's only three guys behind me. And so we had to have them just kind of set up a small perimeter, and we had to wait till daylight, you know, to get his boot off of there, you know. And I mean, it was about an hour, but, and I tell you, he never flinched, you know. He just, in fact, when I was getting his leg and, you know, lifting it up so I could pull it back off of the drip wire, he said, oh, that feels good. go and never had a hold of this way. That was when we, in hindsight, I think we started being there a little too long because we just were sure we were invincible, you know. And I mean, for, in a lot of ways, it seemed like you were.

Like you guys were able to go out and rack up quite a few kills out in this area, out by the demilitarized zone between north and south Vietnam. I mean, I mean, you really saw a lot of action out there. We did. Ours was not, you know, ours was, I mean, at times, I was in a few of the set piece kind of battle, you know, with the grunts. But most of ours was small, you know, small unit fights, you know, and stuff. And so, but we, I got to the point, the shot wasn't my thing.

The thing was pulling off the patrol and pulling off. you know, like sneaking into this place that no one would dream I could get in, you know. And so that kind of became my thing, you know, I just, I just, could we really do this, you know. And these guys, it was a, it honestly was, our patrol was a democracy. I let them, we, we argued about things and we, we either, greater we didn't go. You know, if everybody didn't agree, we didn't do it. And, and, uh, almost every case, they, they agreed, one too many, you know, we, we had a situation in this valley. We, there was a lot of infiltration prior to the Tet Offensive. And so we went, we lived out there for six

months. Uh, we'd come into grunts and get supplies and stuff, but we had beards and long air and kind of looked like that like that at times, you know. And, uh, And so we just loved it because we were out of the, by then, by the second year, into 67, the Marine Corps started getting petty again. You know, they got organized, they got, you know, started having rules and, you know, just nonsense stuff for combat zone. So we loved it because we could just stay out of that. You know, we were, we were on our own and the colonel supported us because we got results, you know. And so we had these gooks moving around about 1,200 meters out and we couldn't reach it. You know, we could pretty consistently hit 1,000.

But I think they figured it out, you know, and so they changed their route a little bit. And so just pissed me off. And so I'd call artillery on them and stuff, you know, but you don't know what results you got. And it was flat out there. which was not our turf. You know, we like to stay in the hills and shoot out and the flyline. And so I convinced my five guys to let's go out because I know they got bunkers, you know, we had aerial photographs and stuff.

And they would be out at night, you know, the gooks would be out at night because they were mostly cadres who were there to supply the troops coming down from the north. So there wasn't a lot of them. out there, you know, at the time. And so I came up with this brainstorm to go out there and get in the bunkers of theirs when they were gone and call artillery, you know, when they came back and bet on the come that it wouldn't hit my bunker. And so I convinced these guys to go.

And fortunately, about a halfway out, Hood was walking point. and there was an ambush waiting for us, and he poiled the ambush, so we had to exchange a little gunfire and ran like, heck, you know, and got out of there, and we never did it again. But they even agreed with me to do that. Yeah, that was probably one of the more, like, insane schemes that you would come up with. Yeah, yeah, it was. Do you want to talk about that one shot that you made at, 1,300 meters out at the Arvin camp. Yeah.

That was pretty interesting. Yeah, that was, we got sent out with the Arvins to Contient before, before the this was in 66. So it was before all the, I mean, it was dangerous out there, but it got really ugly in the grunts. There's a real history and a book about it and everything. So I was there with the Arvins when it was a small. camp and it was a French cement bunkers and stuff, you know, from the French days. And so the Arbid, there was one guy spoke English out there. It was all, and he was an Arban lieutenant. And so he, he wouldn't let us shoot, you know, because what we realized, I was out there

for three weeks with him. And at night, you could actually watch troops infiltrating from the north because they had flashlights. About every fifth of one had a flashlight. And the Arbans had a deal with them that the North Vietnamese wouldn't attack Contean if they didn't attack them. Right, right. So we would see these streams going by a night, you know, and they wouldn't. And so it was kind of a bizarre place out there.

Well, one day we see this guy and it was a demilitarized zone. Nobody's supposed to be there. And so he was by this hot. And the only reason I knew it was 13. 1800 meters. It was on the map, you know, there was this little hooch he was in, and it was on the map, and it was the only one in that grid square. And it was 1,300 meters.

So I called the Arvin Lieutenant over and gave him the binoculars and said, can I shoot? And he laughed and said, yes, you know, so well, cool. So we laid on top of this bunker, it was a grass roof. my partner and made us a little stand with sandbags. And so my first shot, the guy didn't even look up. You know, I mean, and now I got five shots, you know. And so my partner's spotting and he picked up the second shot, but it was probably 200 yards short. The guy still didn't look around.

and the third shot, I could see it. It hit the dirt, you know, so it was just in front of him. The fourth shot was just behind him, and then he went in. And so we waited and disappeared for about an hour, and then he came back out. And so my fifth shot, he ducked. I mean, he fell to the ground and it took off, you know, and went back in. So I had to reload, you know. And by the time I, honest to God, I got him on a sixth shot.

And it was like my rifle was almost like an artillery peach. You know, his head was in the bottom of the scope, you know. And I dropped him in his track on a sixth shot. And he was stupid enough to keep coming out there. And so the Arvin lieutenant was not happy. He was not happy. So like the whole, you know, the, this trope or whatever, the stereotype, like one shot, one kill. Like, is that real life?

Like, is that the reality of sniper operations? Well, it is up to about 600 yards. You know, beyond that, it's, you know, it's, I wouldn't say, I don't know if it's luck, but if you got him on the first shot, especially. back then, you know, because we didn't have anything. They just taught us that if you happened to see a flag, you know, out there or, you know, well, if it's partially up, it's about 15 miles an hour. And if it's all the way up, it's 30 to 35 miles.

Well, you rarely had a flag. So you'd have to watch trees and stuff like that. And then the heat would make the bullet take off also. You know, you had to, you know, kind of learn that, you know. But it's one shot, one tail, if you're close, you know, if you're, I would say within 600 yards. But you get out beyond that, it's not common, you know. I just point out that the current record holder along a sniper shot is a Canadian in Missoule, Iraq. And it's like crazy.

It's like over two miles, like crazy shot with a 50 caliber rifle with all of our today's modern technology. and one of my sources told me that was about the 150th shot from that sniper position from that sniper hide that had been fired. I would believe that, you know, because I hear some things

and see some things and in two miles, it would be hard to even see the target. Right, right. I mean, I guess you have better things. All we had was 750 binoculars, you know, and through the scope, all you had.

in my case, nine hours at the best. But yeah, I hear some of those things, and I would believe that because it's an art, not a science. You have a lot of data, you know, like at that shot that you made, you were gathering data with each shot and increasing your accuracy. Yeah. Yeah, because I had the left and right down, you know, it was the distance that you. you had to get, you know, it's like, you know, you can aim right at him, but you got to get the distance right, you know, and had he not keep coming out, I would have never got him. I don't know he's digging, but it must have been important. What are the other interesting, you know,

missions, actually you're out there for a while, what it seemed like was a rock pile, I think it was called when you're up on top of mountains. Yeah, yeah, that was, we were, the rock pile is a famous kind of place there. The Japanese were the last ones on. it when we went up with Forest Reconnaissance and nobody climbed it you know it was it was craggy granite peak just sticking out of the jungle just just slightly south of the DMZ on highway 9 running from Dong Ha-o to Kaysan and and it would but it was a major observation post you know because it was and so the top of it was all just just sharp granite, you know. And so I went up with five recon guys and me and my partner and Zulu in the book. And they just had to hover the helicopter there and we had to jump onto this thing. And the only thing up there at the time was us and some rock apes. You know, they were about four feet high, you know, and we apparently unseated them, you know, because there was a,

sister peak that was about 50 meters away that, you know, there was kind of not a trail, but there was a rock formation that went over to it. And we would see them over there in the daytime, you know, these little rock age. And, but we stayed up there for three weeks. And RECON was calling in air strikes and stuff. And we got a few shots, but we were so high up that it was eight, 900 meter shot, you know, down to where these, you know, where the gooks were. But, but it was, it was really interesting up there because you had to just sleep in a part of the rock. You just had to find a place. We didn't even tear your clothes. It was just, it was an interesting place. And we just sat up there. You couldn't go more than

20 feet in either direction, you know. And, and so one night, one of the, one of the, the recon guys were screaming and a rocket had started beating on him you know he wasn't biting him he just he just came over there and started slapping the crap of it and so but it was interesting because none of us shot any we didn't really have a desire to shoot them you know but that's all it was up there and then they shoot they shot i don't know if they still use recoil do they still use recoils Oh, they're definitely out there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And the gooks used to shoot those at us. And so when they would shoot them, we would kind of climb down over the other side of the rock file. And they never hit the top of the rock file, but they got close enough that you heard the whoosh go by. And so they'd hit below us. And then they'd try and hit us, and they always went over us. And so it was. it was interesting and I think

the other thing that comes out in your book too that I have to mention is that as these missions went on some of the guys I think Zulu was one of them maybe crude was another like you can see that the longer you guys are in country doing these operations

like some of their minds started to come apart like there was a psychological effect on them as time drew on throughout the war? Well, there was. Like, mine, I know this in hindsight. I didn't know at the time.

Mine just became this zone that I was in that I liked. And I, it was a camaraderie, you know, and all that. But I did have one guy, he passed away two. years ago with cancer, but he weiner in the book, okay. And he had an unfortunate experience. He was out with the grunts and another of our two. We had a team, you know, two men team with one set of grunts, two men teams, another set of grunts. They were in the DMZ on different ridges. And it was the monsoon. So, you know, it's cloudy.

It's, you know, everything. And it's difficult at 600 yards, even with 750 binoculars, to tell whether that's an American or, you know, Vietnamese. And so his lieutenant called in, they saw movement. It was about 600 yards. And they had movement across the way and on another thing. So they called COC, Combat Operation Center, for, check, you know, and with a lieutenant with the other group reported that he was somewhere else. So he, they got the green light.

So they set the false report. Yeah. And out of, you know, 100 grunts or 50 grunts or whatever it was, the guy that Gary happened to shoot and kill was one of our sniper. there were two of them out of that group and he got a headshot and and killed him and after that he really and he was cleared of any you know problem wrongdoing right what he was told you know and but it really worked on him and he after that it kind of snowballed and he he got um He got into, I tell you, we used to lay grenades on, you know, booby traps and run and stuff. Well, he got into what he called blowing mines.

Let's go blow some grunt mines, you know, and stuff. And so one time he, after that, he, I actually think, honestly gosh, I think my book would make a good match series because of the characters and stuff. But Gary, after that one time we're waiting on our 519. waiting on, we were around the grunts of the air, you know, air thing. And we're waiting on a chowper to take us out. And he saw a supply guy that had some yellow paint, you know, how they stencil stuff. And so he takes that paint and sprays his boots yellow, his jungle boots, just sprayed him yellow. And then sat down. We're waiting, and this lieutenant comes walking by.

Marine, why are your boots yellow? Gary stood up and said, sir, my boots aren't yellow and argued with you. And the grunt lieutenant finally walked away. And one time, Gary lit, he took lighter fluid and just soaked the front toes of his boots and lit him when he saw an officer coming and went through the same dialogue, you know, that my boots aren't on fire. And then he was very, very, very, very quick tempered. And, you know, somebody took his seat. I don't know, meeting. I don't know, back at one of the bases.

And he just leveled the guy. I mean, just stand up and just leveled it. And so he and I spent a lot of time together in the last 20 years, you know. And he passed away two years ago, but he had been married 48 years, you know. Wow. And he had a lot of problems through there that she saw him through, you know. And but a wonderful lady that he was married to. And the funny thing with that when my book came out, I was in Spokane doing the book signing, you know.

And that's where he carries from. he said, oh, stay at my house. So I did. He says, well, I'll take you down in the newspaper because they were, they were going to interview me. And so on the way down and stuff, he tells me he was a teacher, high school teacher for 29 years. And no one knew he was a veteran. Wow. He had a ponytail. No one. He had never told anybody. And so we're riding down there. And he says, he told me that. And I said, Gary, you know, this story's more about you than me. You've lived here, you know, and you were there 18 months, you know. No, no, I don't know anybody. No, I finally said, when we got ready to walk in the studio, I said, well, Gary, today's you're coming out for her. And so they, it worked out in the end great because he, the story was more about him than me.

It was about the book, but it featured him. And then everybody knew, you know, at work. But his wife said that it was the last part of his life there after all that was the best because he came to grips with it all. You know, he had in his head that he was in trouble for, you know, for shooting this guy and stuff. And I was able to sit down with him and go, you never got in trouble for that, you know. So I'm sure it's guilt and, you know, whatnot. Yeah, the shame that he held onto that for 29 years and wouldn't talk about. Wouldn't talk, it wouldn't even say he was a Marine.

No. Nobody knew, you know, he, and he was a real Marine. You go to his house and he had a Marine room, you know, and everything. And but after, after that, we were able, during the Iraq War, especially in Afghanistan, the current Marine snipers would have us out to, At that time, the best sniper school was out in, in my opinion, was out in Hawaii. And so they would host us and we would go out for graduation and they just treated us like, you know, royalty. And so Gary got to do that and it really, really helped it.

I'm so happy to hear that. Yeah, yeah. Because there was just a lot of incidents through the years that his wife endured that were hard. Yeah, yeah, of course. yeah unbelievable um it there were you know things got kind of like uh you know apocalypse now at times though there's that one dude on your on the on the team who had like an ear collection uh that you write about in the book yeah he he was actually the NBA guy oh Jesus Christ really yeah he was and And he would, you know, kind of, well, he wore a piece of com wire, you know, around his neck.

And he had this collection of ears and he'd dry him like potato chips. God damn. And that was at least, you know, not so much now, but through the years, you know, people say, well, you know, what movie best he picks, you know, Vietnam? Well, there isn't one because everybody's experience. was a little different. I'm sure it's like your war, you know. But for me personally, it was apocalypse now up until the end. You know, the end got weird, you know, Brando and all that stuff. But, but, you know, where the choppers came in, you know, with music and that, you know,

blaring music, they did that, you know. I mean, and, you know, we would, as snipers, we would literally just, when we worked up north at Dong Ha, our platoon, was still 60, 70 miles south at Fubah, you know. And so when we wanted to get mail or anything, we had to go back there. So when we were working with recon, they were up north. And so Hutch and I, my Zulu in the book, would have to fly down for, like tonight and fly back tomorrow morning to be with RECON. And we would literally, marine pilots wouldn't help us out because they were protocol. But the Air Force pilots, they loved us. And so, these C-130s would come in multiple times a day from Danang, and they would fly all the way to

Dongha and back, you know, parrying ammunition and whatnot, you know, supplies. And we, this is, it was bizarre, you know, because Hutch and I would just go out. They'd see our sniper rifles, you know, and they like to talk to us and stuff. And so we'd say, hey, would you drop us at Fubai? And they'd go, well, yeah. Yeah. And they'd stop that big, four-engine plane, we'd run out, go over our bait, they'd go, be back here at 0-600, and we'd be back out there, they'd stop, because they'd take us up the down. And if it had it went down, nobody knew where the heck we were, you know. It was bizarre. Speaking of which, I wanted to ask you also about that incident, a really interesting incident that happened where you guys had smoked

up some NVA, some legit bad guys, but there was a civilian wounded in the process. And the process and like some real heat came down on you. When you were you were really legitimately trying to do the right thing there. Yeah, it we had they had the kernel or above over there as my understood it would declare any area of free fire zone. Meaning the grunts would go through and literally move everybody and they'd take them down to the, you know, the, kind of the the beach area, and the C-Bs would build them a new village. And they were told they can't go back. Oh, it's a strategic hamleting.

And that would be where there's massive infiltration, just problems and weed traps and everything. And so what happened on this, the bad guys would learn from the Arbans where the edge of that free fire zone was. It was on a map, you know, there wasn't any signs or anything. And what was happening, And we were effective out in this valley.

We were knocking off, you know, a lot of people. And so they would come up with these berry pickers, usually women. And they would, you know, the rice batty daddy hats. And they would be right at the edge of the free fire zone. And they would lock mortar that, you know. So I thought, you know, we need to end that crap, you know. So we snuck in at night in these very badges and were sitting right at the edge of the free fire zone, but they weren't in it. And there were the bad guys, you know, mixed in them.

We could, we know what we could see him. And so we shot them, you know, we took them out. I mean, we were 50 meters, you know, I mean, it was close. And a young, probably 16 year old or something took a graze, you know, in the leg. you know, from the shooting. And so, you know, we went down and, and they, you know, the ones that were there were upset, you know, and everything.

And so I called a medevac for her. And I knew if I called, and it wasn't a Marine, I'd wait three hours, you know. So I called and said, we took a casual. Well, well, here they came,

you know. I mean, two gun ships are buzzing the place. You know? And this, this Metaback comes in, and when he saw who we were taken out, he was talking to me on the radio,

and I finally just had to squelch him, you know, because he was just pissed. Yeah, like, click, we're done here. Thank you. Yeah, yeah.

I did. I turned my back and walked away. And it was not 30 minutes. I get a call on the radio that says the colonel shoppers coming to pick you out. Just me and not anybody else. And so, you know, I had two kind of new guys out with me that time. They're freaking out. So I just said, look, I'll take the heat, you know.

I mean, I'm making this decision, nobody else, you know. And so the colonel shopper did come and get me, flying me back. And see, we had a lieutenant in charge of our snipers, like between us and the colonel. But this guy was totally admin. You know, he never went to the bush. He wasn't a sniper. He was just in charge. And so he and I had gotten into it.

And he was a turned out he was a good guy. But when he came to the platoon, he thought we needed discipline, you know. And so he ordered us to shave, you know. And so we just went to the bush, you know, and stayed away from him for six weeks. And when he saw me that guy, he ordered me. I'm giving you a direct order. Well, I had memorized the Marine Corps order. I forget it now.

But it said Sergeant. Starved about your mustache. Yeah, can have a mustache, you know, because I shaved, but I left my mustache. And he said, and he came back with one that you have to obey your commander or something. So he finally said to me, I requested mass, which in the naval service anyway, I wanted to see the one above him. Well, the one above him is the colonel. Well, the colonel had me buying his wife stuff when I went on on an R. He said, okay, 0630 tomorrow, we have a meeting with the colonel.

mustache, I am going to court marching, you know. So I smoked that for a while and and shake, you know. And so I go into the request mass and, and the colonel, honest of God said to him, why are you effing with this guy? Said to the lieutenant, the lieutenant says, he said, you don't know what these guys do. Leave them along. He goes, grow your mustache. And so I had it ever since. You know, I, when I went to work with Frito Lay after Dom, about 10 years after Nam, I went to work for Frito Lay and was a manager and stuff. And my boss, when I moved to headquarters in Dallas, told me I had to shave my mustache because they wanted, and I said, so I told him that story and said, it ain't happening. And so he let me alone. And but what happened

is so that lieutenant and I you know I had kind of beat him with the colonel there well I get back and who do I have to see but him and he sits down and I thought I'm toast

and so he sits down with me and said okay this is where we're at you know they came back and said you shot him off water above below you did this and honest to God, the just blatant

truth has never failed. I mean, and I looked at him and said, sir, there were no water before. And he looked at me and said, I'm going to talk to the colonel, and I'll let you know. And he came back to me

about an hour later and said, the chopper will take you back out. You're good. Yeah, no, that was cool. But I did think I was going to get it. That was cool that he backed you up in the end. Yeah, he did. You know, he was a Mustang.

You know, he had come up through the ranks. He was a lieutenant, but he'd been in the, you know, he's been a gunny. And I got to know him after that. I think he was just frustrated that he was an admin, you know, role. And then I think he grew to respect what we were doing. It's supposed to screwing with us, you know. Speaking of which. Ed, there's a point in your book where you take a guy out and a guy who's not necessarily

a sniper because he wants to get a kill in. Oh, yeah. The way your book is written, I mean, people really got to read your memoir, Dead Center, because it's written, you have a very sarcastic sense of humor. I'm just looking at the book. I want to read a few passages. What a place Vietnam was. It was sick enough to go around and shoot people, but to want to kill so you could beg the

dudes on the Marine rifle, so you could brag to the dudes on the Marine rifle team? Well, let's lock and load, Sarge. And then he shoots the guy, and I want to hear the story from you, he shoots the guy, but wounds him. And you wrote in the book, this really jumped out at me. You say, our eyes met, I could tell he didn't like me any more than I liked him. Fuck, it's just a game, man, nothing personal. Well, what happened there? Well, we were, we were, we kind of owned this valid, you know, I mean, we knew every nook and cranning. We'd been there for months, you know, and we knew the infiltration route, you know, we knew everything.

And so when this, this guy was a career marine nice guy, he was the Hawaiian guy, we'd call him pineapple. and he was our armorer. He took care of our weapons. That was his specialty. And he was a member of the Marine Rifle Team. And so we just knew him as a good guy, you know, back to rear that took care of our stuff. And, you know, we had shots every time we went out, anytime we wanted to. And so he did.

He came to me and said, I'm going home at the end of the month, you know. and I'm on a Marine rifle team. I don't want to say I was with fourth Marine snipers and didn't shoot anybody. He says, could you take me on a patrol? Yeah. So we took him out to a favorite spot of ours where we knew, you know, there was infiltration.

And we tried to be somewhere that no one would dream you'd be, you know. And so we sat in this grass. It was about four feet high and camouflaged ourselves. and we did it at night. So morning comes. And normally our shots there were about three to four hundred meters. And, you know, they're kind of chip shots. And so there was a little mole in front of us, probably 100 feet.

It wasn't far, you know, that it's grassy and stuff. And so we're sitting there that morning. Hadn't seen anything. It was probably 9, 10 o'clock in the morning. And up pops an NBA soldier on this normal. hole, literally, 7,500 feet from us, looking all around, obviously didn't know we were there. And so the sergeant said next to me, you know, pineapple, he was the staff search. I just hit his leg and kind of put my hand out and said, there he is, you know.

And so he got up, you know, got his rifle and everything. And he cranks off around, but he was shaking, you know, it's probably like they say, deer fever or something, you know. And so the guy goes down, but he starts yelling, you know, and being to me, well, I can't have, you know, I had six guys this time because I had him, but I can't have 20 guys running up over that hill, you know. So I just jumped up, grabbed my M14 and nothing else. I have my stuff off, you know. And I ran to the guy, you know, and two of my guys just took off on either side, you know, to give me cover. And I got down to the guy, and he was younger than me, you know, it might have been 20.

And he had his AK laying right next to him, and he was bleeding at the leg. He took the ground in the thigh. And our eyes didn't meet, and I knew he was younger than me. He was dressed in the NBA stuff. And nobody ever came up over the thing. But I know he wasn't alone because he was yelling, you know, for help. And anyway, I got right to his feet and I have the drop on him with my 14th. And I think I had been there too long because I just thought, you know, maybe give him a hush, you know.

And so I stepped around. I was going to kick his 14 or his AK away from him, you know. And so when I reached down, he grabbed that sucker and pulled it right, pulled the trigger right in my stomach. And it misfired. I still have the bullet. Our lieutenant took the frigging AK, you know, but I still had the bullet with the broken primer in it.

I used to wear it around my neck, but, but, well, then I took care of him, you know, I thought. Yeah. And did you like, I mean, it was almost like you had this like supernatural type of luck. Like there was that one point where you stumbled and you fell, your foot fell inside a booby trap. And it was a how it's around and it didn't go off. There's the incident that you just described. There were booby traps.

There were guys to your left and right who got killed. And somehow for two years and nam, like you came through it. Like, was there any point that you started? started to feel like, you know, either I'm a one in a million or like I'm the next to buy it. Like, what's going through your head? I never thought I would get killed. I don't know. I mean, that's probably a mental thing, you know, maybe survival thing. I don't know. But I just never thought I would. And I at the time, I was, I was raised no religion, you know. I mean, it wasn't. And Tomo had atheist on his dog tag.

So you know how he paid for that in boot camp. You know, I mean, he paid, you know. And I don't know if either one of us were. He ended up being a Catholic and I ended up finding Christ. But, but we were both pretty amoral, you know, at the time. And so my thought was always, I'm lucky. I'm just lucky. I never thought of it from a religious, you know what I mean?

Like anything like that. It means something to me now more, you know, that I found Christ. But at the time, I just said, damn, I'm lucky. Yeah, fuck it. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what I felt. That is. Because I just had this thing, if I'm going to go, I want to go on a blaze of glory. I want to go fighting.

I don't want to step on a booby cat. And you have no control over that, but that's what I hope. I think it was also interesting that, you know, you really do a good job in describing being a young man in combat and also bouncing between going on R&R, going to Hong Kong, going to Thailand, going back home, and kind of juxtaposing those experiences, especially when you went home.

And it was like, you're like, I have nothing to, relate to here. And by the end of the war, I think you wrote in the book, like, going home was more terrifying than anything I had faced during Vietnam. Yeah, going home the second time, you know, I went home between my years, you know, and I, you know, I remember stepping off the plane in Cleveland Airport and my mom was wonderful because she supplied our platoon with stocks. I mean, she was...

Yeah, she put up with you. Yeah, she sent us booze and baby bottles so that the post office couldn't figure it out, you know. And then she... But she was a great gossip, you know? I mean, she just... She would help anybody, but just had story after, you know, and I remember getting off the plane in Cleveland, getting in the car,

and she starts telling me all this gossip and stuff. And I, you know, all I could think of, put me back on the plane, man, I can't cope. No, it's just, it was a different world, you know. Right. It was, you know, it was, and I remember, you know, when I, uh, when I left, Growing up, my dad worked hard. He was in trucking, you know, and he drove and then he got one and two and all that. So I never saw him, you know, much. But until he was a good provider and everything, but like not around the house. He just, he would hire somebody.

He would, which is fine. But I remember one of the incidents, I came home and went to get a shower. and the same streak of hot water that was there when I left, you know, one streak had never been repaired, you know, and stuff. And I remember it just set me off so much. I took off and went to a motel and ran in a room to take the shower, you know, it was things like that, you know. And when I told my mom I wasn't staying, I was going back, you know, for another tour. And she said, I really think you should see someone. She wanted me to go see it shrink or somebody, you know.

But it's, and I'm sure you guys experienced from what I see. It's like you're in this world with a totally new, different set of rules, you know, over in wherever you are, you know. And you come home and you realize that nobody gives a shit, you know. Right, right. I mean, there's a few people that genuinely do. but they're far and few between. There's a lot of lip service, you know. And that, to me, didn't, you know,

I didn't get too hung up in the 60s coming back because I personally never had anybody spit on me or any of that. And talking to vets through the years, I think that happened more in cities than it did smaller towns where I was from. And so, but I had a lady come up to me because my dad, when I came home the second time, my dad picked me up at the airport. And we used to be really involved in go-kart racing.

And so he had to build a track. And, you know, he was presently association. So the family was really into it. And I got, I never got really back into it from after Vietnam. It was different then. And so, but I remember coming home, it was a Sunday. and he picked me up and took me straight to the race track. And then he went, my mom was running the concession stand.

My dad was running the races and I was left sitting there, you know. And it just didn't connect, you know. I mean, it was just like, you know. Your dad had a real hard time relating to you, I felt like reading your book. Yeah, he did. And me, him, you know. He was, now that I'm older and can raise. reflect and stuff. You know, he was a product. He had to quit school and go to work at 14 because his dad died on a railroad accident. And so to him, the world was money, you know, like security was money. So he grew up in the depression. Yes, he did. And, and so, you know, I can't relate to the, I mean, I can now more, but, you know, as a kid, you can't. You just know your dad's not there, you know. And, and so, um,

But I remember I was sitting there and this woman who I really didn't know came over to me and her husband was the big wig of the carding association stuff from out of town. And she sits down and says, oh, I understand you just got home from Vietnam and said, I did. She says, well, aren't you glad to be home from that awful place and all those awful people you were around? I said, no, ma'am, I would love to go back there right now and be with them rather than you. you know and it it just you know you're just a different world and and and i think that the one of the things i think i've learned over the years and i did i wrote a book about oh i don't know maybe eight years ago um co-f firefighters of the mind and it's about my pt you know PTA experience coming home and sense that, you know, and how it sticks with you.

And, and, but I think one of the things that gets people is the injustice of, okay, I went and did these things, you know, for my country. and then you see the deceit and everything that goes on in war from Washington and annoy and whatnot, you know? That is what sets me off today. You know, I've never had a nightmare about Vietnam, but I, my wife and I finally, I finally was able to articulate about 15 years ago what happens in my head, and I call it the bees, you know, like when something sets me off, it's like these bees came out of hive in my head and I have to get them back in, you know. And so my wife bought little bumblebees.

They sit them all around the house. And so when I when I when I when I when I when I when I sleep she just points to the bubble and it actually works. You know, it's a but so you know mine has never been one of regretting what I did. But I'll give you a really good example of with what's going on in the country today with the riots and wanting to tear down the statues and all that stuff. I have a friend around here who was a Navy pilot in Vietnam. And I met him a few years ago at a high school used to have a Vietnam symposium down here. And that's where I met him. And now he moved up here near me. He's a pilot still. But he's the proverbial fighter pilot he's short he's all attitude wonderful guy but he he's he's picture perfect and

and he um his wife and daughter got hold to me just not long ago you know probably six weeks ago and said can you help and and so and i had no idea because he has the same humor we do you know of a dark humor because he flew three three different mission here you know six months stints over there so he did close air support annoy you know everything and and and so he had gotten so upset that his wife left you know and so i went down and spent about four hours with him one night, three or four hours. And what it boiled down to, what set him off was when all the Minneapolis riots, the Portland bullshit, you know. And what set him off was he said to me, he says, you remember the end of the war? He says, I was flying close air support for the

Arvans when the North Vietnamese stormed across the border. You know, it's like 73 or four or something And he said, normally from my vantage point when I'm flying, you can't see people, you know, because he said, I'm starting in at 5,000 feet. He said, the North Vietnamese were so, there was so many of them, they looked like ants on the ground. And he said, and I was dropping, I think they call them daisy cutters where they go down and blow, the bomb goes out, splits into 100 bombs or something. and then three feet of other cluster of munitions yeah okay and and he said i don't know how many i killed but i i'm sure i killed hundreds if not thousands and he said and i'm okay with that because i i did that with a clear conscience for my country because there was a war going on. But now I look at these punks who are destroying my country from my grandkids,

and I see people doing nothing about it. And now I doubt myself. And that was insightful to me, because I didn't expect it coming from him. You know, I mean, he's not a guy if he met him, you know, he's got the military dark humor and, you know, he's been there, done that and all that. But, it deeply bothered him what he did. And he said, it's never bothered me once in my life, but I see how our kids have just been dumbed down, you know, that they don't know history, no, and they don't.

And so I think part of the problem with you guys coming off Iraq is you come home, and it's the injustice. So I just did this, and I saw all my friends die. and you guys are playing games and watching, you know. Yeah, yeah. And every year it gets a little bit harder to explain why we're in Afghanistan or why we're in the Middle East. Yeah.

Yeah. In Vietnam, I wouldn't, I mean, it's not double digits or anything, but I know many times we would just lose 100 Marines fighting for Hill and then leave the hill. You know, and at 19, you're still sitting there, even at 19, you're sitting there going, what the hell is going on? And so, you know, I have been a student of the war since I left. You know, I had my mother send me books when I was there, and she sent me Ho Chi Men on Revolution, Mao on World of Warfare.

I wanted to understand my enemy, you know. And so I spent a lot of time, and I still have all those books. and now I probably have 500 Vietnam books. And I've read it from protesters' point of views, you know, everything else. And I honestly think it could have been a just war because Vietnam is now communist, and Cambodia is communist, Laos is communist. But we didn't fight it to win, you know. And we didn't lose battles over there.

you know, we lost to prepare us, you know. And that's the injustice, that's, probably the thing that sets me off most, more than anything is injustice. Yeah, well, yeah, the injustice is that we threw away 50,000, you know, plus American lives in Vietnam, and we all have to ask ourselves, you know, what did they die for? Yeah. Yeah, you do.

And the problem that I've found is that old people get a, into war, but young people fight it. And one of the challenges with that, and I know from reading your book, I know you know this, one of the challenges with that is for many, it was me, probably you, it's a, it's a, the adventure of a lifetime. Yeah, yeah. Right? I mean, it does. You hate to say that, but it is. And so that's, that's kind of, that's kind of, have a conundrum there you know with yeah yeah no it it absolutely is um that you know we go into these things as young guys and it is an adventure and it is very exciting and we're as you experienced as well at it's intoxicating it's an it's a it's a lifestyle yeah um and then coming home from all

of it is uh can be quite difficult and painful you know oh it is i you know my wife and i laugh now but but I couldn't stand crowds, you know, I still don't like it, but I can't, I couldn't stand them when I came home. And so when we decided to get married, it was what we got to invite this person and this person and pretty soon, you know, we went down to Winchester, Virginia, and you got married by Justice of the Peace, you know. And on the way home, we stopped to get some things for the apartment. And she turned to me and had two towels. And she said, do you think we should buy thick or thin and I said I'll see in the I'll see you in the car that was I couldn't get my mind around that I could not get my mind around that you know I could not get my mind

around that you know it was it was just and and and but you're right it's intoxicating in that my dad would get frustrated with me I raced the really fast go cards and stuff And it was very competitive and very good when, you know, in high school before I went to Marines. Well, I come home to Vietnam and thought I still. I actually thought I wanted to try and get into racing cars. And I loved the speed, but I could be competing at 20th place or first place. It mattered not to me, you know.

I didn't care. And it would frustrate my dad, you know, because, well, you've got to win. And I'd go, all about the adrenaline, you know. You know, wheel to wheel. You know, that was the thing. You know, I went out and skydive, you know, thought maybe that was it. And I learned to fly a plane and, you know, all those things, rock climbing. And then you finally realized that you're chasing the adrenaline. Yeah, yeah. And I was fortunate enough. I don't have a college degree. I dropped out. I, I unfortunately,

I wasn't going to Kent State campus, but I was going to a Kent State branch nearby. when the shootings happened. Oh, yeah. I did not want to go to college. My wife wanted me to go to college, you know. So I got about two years in, but when that happened, it was always liberal, but when that happened,

I remember a sociology class, and this woman would just turn it in. Every day she would turn it into, I was working full time, going school full time. And she was, turned it into a big bad government problem, you know, and everybody would agree, you know, on this, and her and I had to do one day, and I walked out and swore I'd never go back. And I didn't. And,

but I made it to vice president of compact computer without a college degree. So. And I did want to ask you about that because you were like the literal atheist in the foxhole, um, in Vietnam. And you, And you talk about how, you know, you got married after the war and your wife brought you to Jesus. And I'm not really a religious person at all, but I'm very interested to hear your experience and how you came and, like, you accepted Jesus into your life. Like, this became an important thing for you. Well, when we were getting married, my wife was going with the time we met, she was gone with a guy that's now an anesthesia. and stuff. And so she came from a very poor background stuff, but she always wanted to be better. And so she was probably thinking she was going to marry him.

At any rate, we went out and I convinced her he'd make more money and I'd have more fun, you know. And so I convinced her to get married. We got married about nine months after we started dating. And I didn't intend on getting married. I honestly didn't. And when I came back, you know, they didn't have contractors like they do now. You can go, you know, get your adrenaline. But I had designs on becoming a mercenic, you know, at the time. And I had worked one time with a British Marine captain over in Nam. And he told me a bar to go to in Brussels, the hell to me,

where they recruited for the Belgian. And so that was my plan to party the summer and then head off to Brussels. I don't know if I would have ever done it, but I met my wife. At any rate, something told me if I was ever going to really do anything good, I needed to marry her. So I convinced her, but she had two conditions. One was you have to work. I didn't have any attention going to work.

I honestly got it. And number two, You have to go to church sometime, you know. And so I went, you know, I went to work and kind of put my adrenaline into that, you know. I went to Freed Away and was one of over five times and six years, you know, and stuff. And was blessed with a company that recognized they wanted results, you know. And so I knew how to get results. Military people do, you know.

And so. And then as my son was born, he was our first. That was about four or five years after we got married. I was very uncomfortable with myself. You know, I was drinking. I had a serious drinking problem. And I don't blame that on Vietnam because I started when I was 14, you know, when I was a kid, you know.

And it probably Vietnam might have exacerbated it. Right, right. you know, because I would, I had a one of them basket chairs in my basement and I would sit down there and just drink and trip out about the annum, you know. And, and so when I, when I drank, I was not a violent drunk or anything. I just didn't talk. I just kind of went into my shell and, and wanted to relive it, you know. And so I, I was uncomfortable. So I, I, I've always, from Vietnam made me a reader. And so I just, I read a book a week probably, I don't know how many years, you know. And so I read this book called I never once considered religion. You know, I started reading Lao Tzu and I started meeting Da Di Ching. You know, I started reading all these things, trying to find something, but I never considered religion.

and so I ended up picking this book up for adventure reason Thor Heyerdahl it's called well his first book which was published after he became famous

you know for Contiki and the raw expeditions his first book was Fatu Heva which is an island in the South Pacific and when he was a getting out of college him and his wife they wanted to live the way Adam and Eve did.

So they found an island called Fatu that happened to be Fatu Kiva. And they went there with a machete and an iron pot. And they committed, he was a biologist, so he got a university to pay their passage in the tournament. So he spent a year there, and without belabor in that, he was raised by an atheist mother and a Roman Catholic father. And he described the balance of nature he found there and, you know, the lemmings and, you know, all this stuff. And he said something that made me realize God was real for the first time. And I wasn't seeking that. He said, I don't know about organized religion, but I know there's a God when I look at the balance of nature and how the cycles work.

And, you know, he went through that detail. And my light bulb went off, you know. Dang, I think there is, you know. And I remember my brother worked for my dad, you know, and he had a company. And so I remember walking in there and telling my brother, I know the truth. And he goes, you're drinking again. And I said, no, I haven't started drinking. But the truth is, there is a God.

You know, and so from that, I was on a business trip with my wife's, one of my wife's best friends, her husband went with me on a business trip about four hours away. And on the way back, I'm telling him about my frustration with myself, you know, that I'm not who I should be and I'm not living my life, you know, because I was kind of haunted by, I mean, I think I was a good father, but and and he knew me during my drinking days so you know it took a lot of courage for him and that night he uh like it was like near it was midnight or later we lived in akron oh hi we're driving back in and he says um he bore his testimony to me of christ and i I my light bulb went on I it was like boom and and I and I got involved and I for for the next 10 years I read nothing but the Bible and related books I didn't read a business book I didn't read anything because I felt like I was behind the power curve and so since then I've served as a lay minister twice and And so it was a dramatic change, you know, that just happened.

You know, I mean, I wasn't seeking it. And so once it did happen, all those experiences in NOM kind of mean a lot. Right, right. Yeah. You feel like J.C. and his boys were like looking after you, you know, when your foot went into the booby trap and all that kind of stuff? I do now. you know, I do now. Because when you look at the odds of that happening,

because I'd have to look at my list, but it was like a dozen, maybe 13, 14 times. Yeah, yeah. You know, I actually walked across the pungy pit one time, and it fell slow. Like the guy digging, it must not have dug it straight, the edge straight down, and it had a little bow in it.

And so it hasn't. just a second before it went down and I was able to jump forward on with my elbows and catch myself. So my feet went down for the stakes a little bit. And so my friend, Greek, who's in the book, he's the one of lost the leg over there. And he was a Catholic from Brooklyn, New York, you know, an Italian. That's why we're calling Greek because he was Italian. But I ended up with him. He would volunteer to go with me every patrol because he said, if I'm next to you, nothing's going to happen to me.

And I used to laugh at him and stuff. And he used to say to me, God's saving you for something. And I would laugh and say, yeah, right. And the first patrol he went on without me after that, he lost his boat. So he was more convinced that. Yeah, yeah, it was really incredible. It was like every time that you went on R&R or you went somewhere else and the guys went out on patrol without you, like something bad happened. Yeah, it did.

It really did. It was the reason I called my book an Odyssey, a two-year Odyssey, because that's what it was. Yeah. It was just bizarre, you know. I don't know if it was our, I think Odyssey is a better world. It was word. You know, it was, it really was the wild. West. It got more organized and you probably experienced that. The more the formal military

gets involved, you know, it just, it's not the things they want you to do in a combat, you know, and but, but it was the experience. I'm, if it's okay with you, I'm going to ask you to stay just like another 10 minutes. I just have a couple questions to ask you for a bonus segment, if that's cool. I really appreciate you taking a few hours out of your evening to spend with us tonight. This has been an incredible conversation. I really want to encourage people to go and read your book, Dead Center. And what is the title again of your book about PTSD and coming home?

It is Firefights of the Mine. That's right. And it's available on Amazon. Yeah, they're both available on Amazon. on, I read a dead center on Kindle. It was, it was great. I mean, it's a brutal read. It's not glamorized.

It's not glorified. It's like Ed kind of telling it how it is, how it was when he was in Vietnam. And it's not pretty at all, but it's real. And I appreciate that you wrote it from that perspective because there's always, you know, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years after the war. You can write it kind of like as if you're 30,000 feet above the war. or writing it like you're, you know, like this godlike being with all this knowledge that you have. But when you were 18, 19, 20 years old down in the battlefield, you didn't know all that. You were just responding to what was in front of you.

And I think you captured that very well in the book. That's what I set out to do. I didn't, I don't like, I just like to tell it like it is, you know, with all the wards and everything else. But, you know, that's why I told my boot camp story. You know, I just, you know, I. Oh, right. You went in a while. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, there are way more stories. Like, in this interview, like, we barely scratched the surface because Ed and his teammates saw a lot of action out there in Vietnam. So, like, we're just barely scratching the surface. So we'll do the bonus segment with Ed. I got just a couple other things to ask. But in the meantime, go check out his books. Please like this video, share it. Give us some comments down below.

Let us know what you think of the show and how it's developing, how we're doing. There's also going to be a link to our Patreon down in the description if you want to support the channel. And I'll put a link to Ed's books down there also on Amazon. I'll do that right after we wrap up here. So again, Ed, thank you. so much and thank you for, you know, the 100-some-odd people who showed up to watch tonight. Well, it's my pleasure to do it. And I would say that if anybody has other questions, everyone asks me personally, I'm on Facebook, just friend me. It's Ed Cougler. That's all.

Outstanding. Okay, so thank you. And we'll see you again next week. Oh, I should tease out who we're having on next week. So next week, September. the fourth, Chuck Woodson. Chuck served in Special Forces. He was down in Danang, worked with the Australians, and he's also done a lot of work on Special Forces history. He actually got to interview Aaron Bank a number of times. So we're going to have an interesting interview with him next week. So thank you guys, and we'll see you then.