The Team House - FBI Mobile Surveillance Team (MST) and DIA intel officer Craig Gant, Ep. 84

Episode Date: March 13, 2021

Craig started off with the FBI Mobile Surveillance Team (MST) following around spies in the United States before moving on to liaison with the CIA's National Resources division work joint missions. We talk about how they helped break up a massive terror plot originating out of Iraq before Craig went on to work for the DIA where he served the SOUTHCOM AOR helping with 7th Special Forces Group Get access to bonus segments with our guests: https://www.patreon.com/m/TheTeamHouse Team House merch: https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963 Team House Discord: https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here: https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links): https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSampleBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Being a parent can be really challenging. Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five with free support services to help them on their parenting journey. Everyone deserves someone they can turn to for help with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. Being a parent can be really challenging. It's normal to feel uncertain about whether you're doing the right things

to raise healthy and happy children. That's why Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five, with free support services to help them build confidence in their parenting journey. Everyone deserves to have someone they can turn to for support with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. Special operations, covert ops, espionage, the team house, with your hosts, Jack Murphy, and David Park.

All right, welcome, everyone. This is episode 84 of the Team House. We are live tonight on Friday. I'm Jack Murphy here with co-host Dave Park. Tonight, our guest you see over here in the middle is Craig Gant. He served as an FBI and DIA intelligence officer. We've got all kinds of interesting stories and things to get into. A lot of ins and outs here to get into tonight. I'm really excited about it, Craig. So thank you so much for joining us tonight. And my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Absolutely, dude. So, you know, the question that Dave and I, we always start off with, because we're big comic book nerds, is we ask our guests what their origin story is, what your superhero origin story. If you got bit by a radioactive spider or, you know, you got put into a test tube and they forged like adamantium into your skeleton, like, how did that all come about?

How did you end up with this career in the intelligence community? It started back in the early 70s Kind of like Luke Cage You know in Chicago You know The TV show actually has them in New York But actually the origins are in Chicago

Was just hanging out, man And all of a sudden I got ruffled up by the cops They arrested me And of course They gave the black guys version of the super serum In jail And here I am Being the guy that I am

So that's how I started. So what was your childhood like? Like, did you have a fascination with the FBI and with the intelligence community? Did you watch Get Smart? I don't know. You're not that old. Actually, I did. No, no, actually, that is, that is, I did watch Get Smart.

I love it. I can tell you that, My fascination with the intelligence community really started probably around age 18. And it's a very interesting story, if you'll indulge me. So I'm 18 years old. I'm a senior in high school. And my dad was a pretty prominent criminal defense attorney in the city. and in 1988 that was the time that Reverend Jesse Jackson was running for president.

So my father got me an internship on that campaign, which was funny because he hates Reverend Jackson, but he got me the internship. So with that said, there was a former Marine and recently retired. retired Navy intelligence officer by the name of Montel Williams. And Montel Williams, I believe had just gotten out of the Navy, and he was at the campaign. So he sees me there, and he strikes up a conversation with me, and he says, he says, you know, young man, obviously, you've got some things going on. I'm paraphrasing here. The fact that you're doing something like this at such a young age.

And by the way, as a side, I was graduating that next day from high school. So Montel Williams starts talking about some of the things that he did. And he says to me, well, have you ever, where are you going to go to college? And I said, well, I'm going to Arizona State. He said, well, have you ever considered a career in the Marines or the Navy? And I was like, no, no, not really. And he said, well, what are you interested in? I said, I don't really know.

And he said, well, I'm anapolis graduate and I'm a former naval intelligence officer. And then he says to me, I'm the closest you'll ever come to a black James Bond. So he says that to me. And I'm like, all right, you know, at 18, what do you say to that? Right. But here he is this very fit African American in his dress whites. Very impressive, but he sort of planted that seed in my mind. So fast forward, let's see, that was June. So August of 1988, I'm a freshman at Arizona State University, and I'm walking across the quad, and there's a career fit. and there are tables for

DIA, FBI, CIA, and I want to say NSA. But as I'm walking by, there's this really well-dressed black man sitting at the table, at the CIA table.

And, you know, I sort of look at it. Like, hmm, that's odd. And as I, walked past him. He says, hey, young fella, he said, can I talk to you for a second? You know, I sort of give him the brother nod. Like, uh, you know, he's like, no, no, seriously, let me talk to you. So I make my way to his booth and, and there are all these very,

uh, very CIA looking white cats. in college who I could see being in the agency, but I couldn't see myself doing that. But here's this black dude who reaches out to me and tells me, he compels me to come to his table. So I go to his table and once again, sort of like Commander Montel Williams, he says, you know, what's your major? What are you interested in? And he said, had you ever thought about the intelligence community? And I said, well, there was one time a guy mentioned it to me. He was in the military.

and I thought it was somewhat interesting, but I didn't take anything of it. So the gentleman says to me, he says, well, would you be interested possibly in a career with the Central Intelligence Agency? And I was like, man, I don't have the GPA, I don't speak a foreign language.

And then being the 18-year-old asshole that I was, and so like, plus, man, CIA, in the FBI, they don't hire Black Spots. Right? So he kind of looks at me sideways and he says to me, he says, well, what do you think I do? I was like, dude, you're probably in HR. You're a clerk or some shit like that, right? And I can see the disgust he had for me in his face.

He said, look, young he said, I spent 25 years as a case officer in CIA. And he said, the only person who will stop you from doing something like this is you. in your attitude. So now I'm feeling like a jerk-ass because I insulted this dude, but I couldn't, to save face, I couldn't let him know that I felt like a jerk-ass. So I sort of took the folder,

you know, the gloss folder with all the information. I think so much, sir, and I'll check it out. So that experience was the second time that I was kind of like, you know what? maybe there's something to this. And then finally, the sort of the thing that really pushed me over the top and that maybe at some point in my life I'll try this was I read the book, The Spook Who Sat By the Door.

Oh, yeah. Which we talked about the movie quite a bit on this show before. Right. And once again, there's a Chicago element to it because the spook, who sat by the door, He was from the south side of Chicago. He was a black cat. He was actually a member of my fraternity. He was a member of Cap Alpha Society.

And Sam Greenlee, who actually wrote the book, would play chess in the quad at the University of Chicago. And my mother got the book autographed for me by Sam Green. So those were some of the things that made me think that, you know, you know, You know, maybe not right away because my teenage years were kind of dicey. And my college years were just as dicey. So let's just say I did everything in my power to make my background and my polygraph be as difficult as possible when I was a young man. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank goodness there wasn't social media back then, right? Oh, man. No. Yeah. Thank goodness. So you

How long was it after you read the the spook who sat by the door Or how long after meeting with the guy from the CIA Was it that you read the book? And was that still sort of Germinating? Yeah, germinating in your mind. It was It was very much germinating in my mind

And you know, to be honest with you I had some things working against me in that. One, I'm a North Sider, okay, but I carry myself like a South Sider. But being a North Sider, let's just say you're labeled. I came from a middle

to upper middle class family. My dad has represented some pretty high profile clients. My mom spent 30 years at the American Medical Association. So when you talk about things like

wanting to work for the FBI, wanting to work for the CIA or NSA and being a black kid, you can get ostracized. So I really didn't say much about it as a youngster. But

it probably I read the book probably the summer of, I'm sorry, the spring of 89, like over break. I read the book. And like you said, it started to germinate, but it wasn't necessarily something that was, this is what I'm going to do. Because by the time I got out of college, to be honest with you, I really didn't know what I wanted to do. I'm the poster child for anybody who was looking to get in this profession and thinks to themselves. And man, my background is shady as hell.

And to be honest with you, it was more youthful indiscretions. Yeah. You know, I wasn't, I wouldn't committing crimes, but I was a kid who we lived on the 26th floor in Sandberg Terrace. and I was dropping water balloons on people with old ladies and people walking their dogs, you know, and some other things that were necessarily anything for me to be proud of.

But with that said, I'd like for folks to understand that, never think that you can't do something like this. Because if I can do it, anybody can do it. And not so much, not so much because I was a smartest cat. I'm probably, and this is an oxymoron, but I'm the ultimate overachieving underachiever,

if you understand. And what I mean is I had all the opportunities in the world to do something, and I fucked those opportunities up. But then I matured and understood that I have the ability to overcome those things. So it was sort of over time that I gradually started maturing and understanding that even if I wanted to do something, whether it be the intelligence community or anything else, I had to stop doing the things that I was doing from 18 to 25. I think it's really interesting and kind of funny in a way that you read the spook that you sat by the door and that kind of inspired you to join the intelligence community, which the book is about. you know, probably the first black person. It's fiction. It's a novel.

First black guy joins the CIA. They stick him in the copy room, and he's so bitter and angry about this. He gets out, he wages revolutionary warfare in Chicago. But then I think, like, as white guys like me and you, we watched horrific movies like Hamburger Hill and Full Metal Jacket, and we're like, yeah, I'm going to join the military. That's what I'm going to go do. That's a great idea.

Right. Yeah. Actually, why don't you do? tell us because maybe it's kind of a obscure book and movie. I mean, the movie was actually hidden for years. They thought it was

destroyed until they found a final copy of it because it was so sort of counterculture at the time. Can you tell us a little bit about the book and then how it influenced you or why it influenced you or what it meant for you? Well,

I can assure you I did not join I did not get into the United States intelligence community to wage war and start the cultural for the Black Revolution in Chicago. If you're trying to get me to admit to that, I'm not going to do. No. I mean, now's your chance if you want to make a statement. We're taking over the radio station. Right. Hey, man.

No, no. Basically, you guys, you gave the bluff of the book. It's a black dude who well educated comes out of the University of Chicago. He was recruited by the agency. He gets there. Has all the skill sets, all the knowledge, all the background that one would have to be able to succeed. And like you said, they stick him in the copy room. And he's like, man, fuck that shit.

I'm going back to the south side. And we're going to rip shit up from 79th all the way to Bridgeport. So that's not, that's not me. Right. Right. But, but what pushed me over, if that's what you gave in that was the events of 9-11. And before I get there, I took the circuitous route to intelligence community. after I graduated from college, I spent four years trying to figure out what it was that I wanted to do.

So I got to the field of human services and child welfare. And that was pretty rewarding work for me for a while. But then I got to the point, man, that I was depressed all the time because I could never do enough. Right. Yeah. And then I started looking around at my buddies, we're 25, 26 years of age. We're still doing the same shit. I'm like, man, I can't do this.

You know, I've got to do something else with my life. So I went to law school. I applied, got in the law school. And I was like, shit, I got in. What do I do now? So, of course, you know, my dad's like, hell, yeah, fool, you're going to take your ass out there. So here I am a kid from the north side of Chicago. I'm in Bristol, Rhode Island at Roger Williams University.

And this is just another data point for people who keep at it, persevere. I got in, did okay my first semester, crapped to bed the second semester, crapped to bed the next semester. So I flunked out, got back in, flunked out, and then got back in. That in itself, my counselor said, I don't know which is more. The fact that you got in or the fact that you flunked out, got back in, flunked out, and got back in. I was like, yeah, man, it is pretty straight, ain't it? So, so it was, after I got back in the second time, I came in the realization that this is probably not what I want to do.

And it's easier, it's easier to get in than it is to stay in. So I was more concerned about wearing, you know, the law school sweatshirts and hanging out on the quad at Brown University and talking to the young. medical students over there. Like, yeah, you know, while you motherfuckers was curing diseases with leeches, us law students, lawyers were right in the Constitution. So fuck out of here. You know, but little did they know I was fucking out of school.

So with that said, I decided that I needed to mature more. And that's when I started applying to the intelligence community. And I applied everywhere. I applied to the Bureau. I applied to CIA. I applied to DIA.

I actually even applied to DEA because I just like, sound like a pretty cool thing to do. So during that time period, and this is like 2000, I also figured, well, to make me a better candidate, maybe they'll be impressed that I got in law school, fluked out twice, and got back in, but I'm going to go to graduate school and actually finish that. So went to graduate school and 9-11 happened.

And I had this overwhelming feeling of anger. One, because my wife was a flight attendant. And two, I'm not going to bullshit you. It wasn't this ra, rah, rah, patriotic thing. It was, man, we're the United States. This doesn't happen to us. it doesn't so

I'm sitting around with a bunch of cats man conspirator theorists conspiracy brother and they talk and shit and I'm like dude what have we done with our lives? What have we done? Everything that you said and you're complaining about, what have you done to change it? So I say you know what?

I'm going to apply to the FBI. I'm going to apply to CIA. I'm going to apply the CIA, I'm going to do something about this. And everybody sort of laughed at me. And so I'm in graduate school. And it took the process for me to finally get a conditional offer. I didn't get one until 2003. I had started applying back in 2001. Right. So the first agency that I actually heard from was Secret Service.

And, you know, I mean, they got a really cool name and they got a really cool mission, but it really was not at the core of what I wanted to do. But again, I was told apply to all of them. So I interviewed and, I think some of the things that I said, didn't I go well? So I did not get a call back from Secret Service. So then I interviewed with DEA. And that interview went well.

As a matter of fact, I think my background kind of sort of appealed to them. So I got a conditional offer from DEA. and I was talking to my wife, you know, and that was as a special agent. And, you know, I'd watch Miami Vice and I'm like, yeah, that's the shit right there. That's what I want to do. And then my wife said, no, you didn't apply to be, you know, Rico Tubbs. Right. You know, so you need to get focused.

And she did. She got me vector back in. She said, look, you said you wanted to do something about this. So I got a call from the FBI But I did not apply for an agent's position I applied for an analyst position And I applied for MST What was surveillance team

And sure enough I got a call from them I interviewed I went well They made me a conditional offer Interview with the agency Went through all the background Psychological and then of course I got the old man, you should be really happy that you made it this far.

Check with us in about nine months. All right. So head back to Phoenix. And I'm sitting in the recruiter's office at DEA. And he says to me, he says, Craig, I need you to understand something. He says, here at DEA, you're going to make drug cases. And the way you're going to do that is you're going to facilitate. drug sales, you will carry your gun. And at some point, you will probably shoot somebody before

you retire from this. If you're not ready to do that, you need to go up the street to the FBI. And I've never forget the guy's name. His name is Casey Ray. And he's like, hey, man, I like you a lot. But just consider this. Go talk to your wife. And I don't talk to my wife. And she was like, take your ass to the FBI. I think what is great about the MST program or the FBI SSG program is that anybody who was looking to come into the intelligence community, it is a, it's the perfect gateway. And the reason why it's the perfect gateway is because you get the foundation of espionage as well as the tradecraft that are used by every foreign intelligence services. that has a presence here in the United States. And you also get some really cool training, okay?

And you made the comment, Dave, about Maxwell Smart. I can't get into the specifics, but I went through Chronicle twice. I went through as MST, and I went through as an analyst. Well, the thing about MST training is the bulk of it is at a clandestine location, not at Cornell. Okay. And when you arrive, it is almost like Maxwell Smart,

where he gets into the phone booth and the elevator takes him down. Yeah. So, and I kid you not. I kid you not. And MST really did appeal to me because, one, it was a cover position. So you had to be concerned about commingling your regular life with your cover light. Two, you got, I learned about PLA Russian services. I got training.

This is really services. Everybody who had a presence here, I learned their TTPs, and I got a strong background and how it is they operate. here in the United States. And that served me. I can't tell you how well that served me as an analyst because there were certain things that I would see in reporting because I had been operational that a normal analyst would look at

and would not have any idea of what they were seen. And it made the 1811s the agents comfortable and taking me out on some really sensitive and high-profile cases and like, hey, man, if you go, you need to take Craig. or if you go, have him go first because he knows what an SDR looks like. Correct. He'll be able to tell you, go ahead. Can you lay out for us before we get deeper into this?

What is an MST? Like, what is that? That's the mobile surveillance team. But what do they do? What's the job? Right. It's the element of the FBI. They are collectors.

They are not law enforcement. They are collectors. Some sit on embassy, some sit on consulates, some is aerial. A lot of it is foot. You have a target, and it is a national security target. It's either CI or CT target. And your job is to provide real-time information, real-time intelligence, on the activities of that individual,

identify individuals who may be within the network of this individual and sometimes you got to get up close. I think, I mean, the guy, one of the main individuals who helped bring down Robert Hansen was an SSG member, you know, Mr. O'Neill. So, and in order to be successful, you have to learn this trade craft,

and you have to know what it is that, you know, you have to, understand what a dead drop is. For example, now that I'm out, I'll see things that just look out of place. Why the hell is that rock just sitting in the middle of the sidewalk? Or, you know, okay, this is an odd place for a Coke can to be sitting. You know, so you start to see things in a different light. And I think that that gateway training allows individuals to go on and to be special agents,

to go on to be case officers, to go on to be reports officers, because as a reports officer, you've got to take out the operational information. You've got to know what will give away what may compromise an asset. So if you have that type of background, it allows you to be pretty successful almost in any disciplines within the intelligence profession. Right. So it's a surveillance heavy job, counterintelligence. Are you just watching people to see what they do, or is this leading up to an arrest? Are you hoping to arrest foreign intelligence agents? Are you hoping to arrest their sources if they have sources cultivated in the United States government? What's the end game from that perspective? Well, with the FBI, everything, the end of the game with the FBI is an indictment and arrest. I mean, that's the end game. However, you also are looking to identify individuals within who may be connected to this individual.

And your job is to help the analyst as well as the agent identify a network. But, okay, we've seen this particular individual, he's been or she has been here, here, meeting with these individuals. I mean, you may actually have to go into the restaurant. and have a seat, two, three seats down from that person to find out what the heck's going on. And I think probably the craziest thing that I've ever seen, and I won't get into specifics, but there was an individual who was trying to throw a tail, and they go into a gay bar. Okay.

So of course Whoever has the eye You know if you got the eye You got to go in that gay bar And of course When you go on that gay bar There are people taking pictures or your team So

You go in the gay bar And you have eyes on the subject And A lot of gay dudes have eyes on you Not that there's anything wrong with that But you know, these are some of the things that you deal with. And what makes it even worse is, of course, your teammates now have pictures of you going

into the, you know, pink pony. Yeah. So how do you explain that? You know, drinks on you tonight or these pictures make their way out. So. Right. How, for the surveillance training, for the people who, you know, have watched movies and see people in black suits with little earbuds talking in a,

you know, like talking under their wrist. Oh, and those sun glasses with a mirror? Yeah. Yeah. What is surveillance actually like? Like, what was some of your training? And does tying your shoe really throw off the, uh, the suspicion? What it entails is, and I think you guys already know this, is, um, everything is about, being able to blend and you know um you you the time two things that's something that uh you saw on uh breaking bad and uh you know that that that's nothing that's going to throw anyone off but um basically your job is not to be seen and uh and uh uh uh you know uh uh uh you know uh uh uh uh you uh uh you your job is to be able to detect if you have been detected.

So because ultimately, you're not, once you've been made, they're not going to do, you're not going to see anything operational. Right. So the specifics of the training, I really can't, I can't get into you. I can tell you that. I can tell you that you get to do Teabok, which is fun and shit. And you guys are familiar with Teabok, right? I don't think so.

Okay. Teabok is a tactical emergency vehicle operations course. Okay. So you get to drive the shit out of a car. But first they take you before you do that, you have to ride the course. So myself and one of my classmates were sitting in the back of the car. I'm not very proud of this. But we're at the location. It's hot.

It's human. You got the crash emmon on, and it smells like swass. And they take you through the course, and I can feel myself getting carsick, right? And my female classmate is looking at me sweating like a crackhead. And she's like, dude, don't do it. Just don't do it. I'm like, I'm fine. I'm fine.

and the instructor hears the conversation. So now he's taking the curves even harder. And he then whips it in reverse and starts going through the course in reverse. And I just yak all in the back of the car, right? So now we're already sweaty. Being a parent can be really challenging. Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five,

with free support services to help them on their parenting journey. Everyone deserves someone they can turn to for help with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. Being a parent can be really challenging. It's normal to feel uncertain about whether you're doing the right things to raise healthy and happy children. That's why Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five

with free support services to help them build confidence in their parenting journey. Everyone deserves to have someone they can turn to for support with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. And I've just thrown up on my classmate, and she freaking loses it. So in our class photo, our Teabok photo, there's all of us and there's me with vomit on my shirt. And that is not anything that I'm proud of. The nature of the training itself, again, we do defensive tactics. And then there are other things that I just can't get into because of the

Sure. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about the job then and to some extent what it entailed some of the situations that you found yourself in once you kind of hit the street? Yeah. It's usually pretty boring. Um, it's, I don't think I saw, sorry if I'm messing up the picture. I don't think I saw more than one or two real operational things.

Um, and I actually, when I transitioned from being AG to an analyst slash reports officer, I started seeing when I would go out with agents or I would go out prior to going to the source meet. That's when I started seeing operational stuff. So, yeah, I'm not going to bullshit you, man. In my AR, I did not see anything earth-shattering. But you spend your days and you spend your nights, you get phone calls, so-and-so's on the move. You got to get up, you get out, you get in your vehicle, and you meet up with your team.

There's a surveillance plan, and you watch you. You may have some guys up in the plane You may have some guys with foot But you basically stage And then that's what you do A lot of us can't be as Lucky and fortunate as Again Mr. O'Neill who was watching

A guy like Robert Hanson You know, that's the dream gig Right But most of your time to spend TDII supporting other surveillance teams. Another thing that happens is your neighbors get kind of suspicious because you always switching out of cars. You know, so my neighbors, you know, my neighbors are like, was he, you know, is he hustling?

Is he moving weight? You know, what's he doing over there, man? Right. Are the MSTs, I guess, then, are separate than the FBI guys who do like the B&E work and install devices and people's homes and stuff like that? Correct. Correct. However, there is some coordination because in order for the black bag guys to do what it is that they need to do at a location, you got to be watching the subject to make sure that they don't, you know, end up at the location where the black bag job is being done. Right. So, yes, there's coordination there. Now, did you guys also learn, like,

counter surveillance and surveillance detection so that not only not only so you knew if there was counter surveillance at present, but also so that you knew what it felt like to be the surveillance and the survey lead? Right. You needed to know, I mean, you have to do your own SDRs, going home because you don't know if you've been made. Right.

And then you're dealing with CI and CT. Go ahead. I'm sorry to interrupt you. And an SDR is a surveillance detection route. So we're talking about taking a route. I apologize. No, that's okay. Yeah.

But it's taking a route to pick up a pre-plan route to try to determine if somebody's following you. Correct. Correct. So, yeah, those are some of the things. yes, you need to know the techniques of counter surveillance as well as surveillance, not only for yourself, but for the agents that you're supporting. You know, I mean, they get that training as well.

But at the same time, they may be focused on, they may be focused on their work. Like, again, if you've got dudes doing the black bags, then their focus is, okay, we're trying to put a track on one. We're trying to do X, Y, Z. they need to know if that subject where he is or she is and when they might be within the locale that may ultimately disrupt what it is that we're trying to accomplish. So then how did all of this lead into you deciding to switch over to take an analyst job? Because you sit in a hot car where you can't run the air conditioning and you look at it

a subject picking up their kids, the dude go on to his jump off house, You know, really not doing anything. And it's like, well, I initially wanted to be an analyst. So my foot is in the door now. Once one of these positions opens up, I'm going to apply. And the reason why I was attracted to the analyst position is because, you know, like you cast, man, I'm, you know, I'm not the alpha male dude, man. I'm just like whatever, man, chilling in the cut. You know, I don't need the recognition.

But at the same time, I like figuring things out. I like being able to make educated assessments on what's going to happen based on certain situations. Well, that appealed to me. And some of my law school training having flunked in and flunked out, that helped. So it enabled me to use a skill set that I had probably better than what I'd done if I'd graduated from law school and practiced law. So a position to open up in Phoenix because that was my AR for an intelligence analyst. I applied and I was selected and my boss was managed. Valenzuela and Mani who's also he's he's a member of the regiment former state guy the bureau

brought him in because at this time the bureau was looking for real intelligence folks director Mueller had made a decision that yeah the bureau was supposed to be an intelligence agency but they were going to make a concerted effort to have intelligence drive collections and guys like manny had that experience um so manning was our chief reports officer at the time. And Mattie was gracious enough to, he saw something in me and he hired me. So what people don't understand about the Phoenix AOR is that it's really a good

place to cut your teeth when it comes to working CT cases. Folks think of places like New York, places like L.A., maybe Chicago. but the Arizona AOR, you got to understand it down in Tucson, the University of Arizona, you had Honey Honjour, was a student at the University of Arizona, Wadiel Hodge, UBL's personal secretary, attended to Tucson Mosque also tried to purchase a plane down at the Boneyard down there. You had course, Abdallah Zahm, who I know you're familiar with, UBL's mentor. He had been to the

Tucson Mosque on multiple occasions and he actually was quite fond of Tucson. And then there are other elements of AQ, Al-Qaeda, that had made Arizona and Tucson sort of their home. And we did some really good CT work out in Arizona and, you know, it allowed me

the chance to work with guys like Ken Williams who wrote the Phoenix memo, you know, he's a dude who said, hey, look, these guys are learning to fly, but they're not learning to land. I got to a guy like Marcus Williams, you know, took me under his wing as the only black dude. in the field intelligence group, Phoenix. I was the first black intelligence analyst in the Phoenix field office.

I don't know if they've had one since either, but I don't know what that sense about me. But anyway, so I got a chance to do some really important work out of Phoenix and out of the Phoenix they are and that we worked some really high-profile cases. and people sort of look at the Bureau and they say, you know, they're not necessarily, maybe they do intelligence, but they don't do it well. I can say that in Phoenix and in Tucson, they did intelligence extremely well to the point that

we were having an impact in places like Iraq. We were having an impact in places like Afghanistan. in and some of our work actually took some really substantial targets off the debt. And I'm not talking about mid-level guys. I'm talking about, you know, senior guys. And not just al-Qaeda, but so many extremists in general. Right. And I had the opportunity to work. I was on the Arabia Peninsula squad.

So we got we worked closely with with CIA. We worked closely with DIA. And we had a lot of programs coming out of that field office that, like I said, were really impactful with the GY. Now, just to clarify, when you say things like you had an impact, you know, in Iraq and Afghanistan, that you're not necessarily, you know, you're not necessarily, you know, you're working targets in Iraq and Afghanistan, you're working targets that are in the United States that are having an impact in Iraq and Afghanistan. We were working targets jointly with the agency that allowed us to have an impact in Iraq and Afghanistan. And again, allow guys like yourself to do that.

what it is that you guys do. Right. Yeah, so you were turning up HVTs overseas that we were able to go and like drop an elbow on. Right, exactly. We were doing things that allowed you to do stuff like that, yes.

And to go in to certain locations to tell people like, hey, we were never here. You know, so we were on that level. What was the train? like as an analyst because you went from a surveillance job to an analysis position and I'm sure that obviously they have to break you in they have to tell you it's not just writing reports but it's like everything right yeah that that actually was that was pretty rigorous um when I went back when I went through in

2005 it was called ASIS now. It's called Basic Field Training Course. And remarkably all my instructors were from the agency. So all our analytical trade craft, all

our analytical tradecraft for the most part was from former agency guys who had come out of the kid school. So you know, everything from Red Team analysis to understanding

getting a background in terrorist organizations, knowing the major personalities, analytical techniques from comparative hypothesis, understanding

what it is to be a report's officer. I think that most important thing that I learned was that in order for the 1811s to agents to do their jobs, we had to be able to look at the information that was collected and sort of separate what was relevant from what was irrelevant, what was good information to what was great information. you know and based on that um it trying to think uh the majority of the the course was analytical techniques understanding the targets um you learn criminal analysis

C I C T there was a short blurb on amazingly domestic terrorism You got to understand what the different services did and what your role was. In other words, your role at that time, and hopefully still is, was to drive collections. Not just to go out and collect everything. We need information that is going to be actionable so that once again, the networks can be infiltrated. they could be degraded, destroyed, disrupted. So that was the main focus. Not just, well, I found this telephone number.

Here it is. Well, what does this number mean? You know, not only who does it belong to, but who have they been contacting? Why is that person significant? You know, why is this number significant? You know, so things like that. Great. I think that most of our viewers know this type of stuff on our listeners know this,

but what is kind of the difference between C.I. and CT, and then what are the differences between the FBI and the CIA and how they operate in the United States, and why do they need to work together? Sure. CI counterintelligence, that is protecting our ability to be able to, protecting our assets, protecting our ability and our sources of methods, and preventing the adversary from infiltrating and understanding what it is that we do. Basically playing defense,

that's the easiest way to look at it. But even in playing defense, you have some offensive capability. If you look at it from a football analogy, if a defender intercepts the ball, then all of a sudden, there's a switch in there and trying to score. So with CIA,

the focus is preventing the adversary from understanding what it is that we're trying to. to do and what we're trying to accomplish. CT counterterrorism is looking to prevent for the FBI, or I guess in general, prevent, whether it be state actors or foreign groups, to prevent them from basically conducting acts of terror to push a political, a political view or policy view, you know, try to scare us into doing what it is that they want us to do or not do. You know, I mean, a typical example is UBL. You know, he wanted us out. Being a parent can be really challenging. Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting

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You can save an extra $10 when you spend $40 or more on a great selection of participating items. Just look for the signs and save at Bakers. He wanted us out of Saudi. So what did he think? What did he do? He tried to scare us out. You know, he brought the fight to us here in the United States. And now in terms of the FBI-Scied mission, you know, it is trying to figure out what it is and determine what our adversaries are doing.

What are they trying to collect, whether it be certain technologies, have they termed some of our individuals within an organization? what is it what is it that a country like China in terms of technology what is it that they want have they infiltrated some of our defense contractors you know is the focus on hypersonic and if it is

what are they doing to try to get that technology is the focus on stealth technology all right so what are they doing there whereas with the agency, when I was with N.R. I didn't do much CI. My focus within R was making sure that the investigative equities of the FBI were being met with joint operations between the FBI and the Central Intelligence Agency. And any time that we had a joint agency,

asset. It was my job to make sure each organization stayed in its lane. That must have been funny. And I can tell you, both organizations have their issues doing that. And, you know, the focus is always on the Bureau operating overseas. It goes both ways, too. You know, when you're in NR, you see a lot of things that happen that you have to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you can't do that, you know. And the conversation may be like, well, you're a Detali over here. You can't do that. No, I can't.

Right. So when you say NR, you're talking about national resources. What is that? Yes, national resources, which is CIA's domestic presence here. But even with that, the focus is still overseas. you know um so uh we when i was with national resources um i had uh it was a it was a watershed moment for me in terms of being an intelligence officer uh because i had to sort of shift from the mindset of fbi intelligence analysts to fbi detailee who now serves at the

whim of the chief of base because at the time our location was not a station yet. So it's a base. And I had a really go-getter as a chief by the name Mike Wright. He's no longer in. But Mike made me hit the ground running. You know, Mike's like, okay, here are the requirements. I need you to go feel I'm like, Mike, I have not had the training that you guys have had. My response was, hey, man, I told you what I want you to do, go do it. So, so I got with my man, Joane, and my man, Joanne was like, yeah, man, hey, man, you're here now, you want us. This is how we roll. And he got me through it.

it. And I found myself working even more sensitive issues for the simple fact that these were individuals, but these were cases that were being run jointly with my home organization, but the agency had an interest as well. So I had to walk that fine line between making sure that in national resources fulfilling what it is that they needed done, in order to get an individual overseas that at the same time, the Bureau's mission was accomplished. And one of the things that I found is when you serve two masters, man, it can really get tense. And there's always the fear that you go native. And the one thing I always understood was, you know, I knew what my bread was butter.

Right. and I also understood that the individual who put me in this position, a great guy by the name of Mark Gigi, who was the intelligence program manager at the Phoenix office. He was former agency, former chief of station. I forgot what country in Africa, but he was also one of the deputies, deputy chiefs of the farm.

So he selected me for that position. position. And in him selecting me for that position, I knew that he selected me because he understood that I was a type of guy that was not going to go native, that I was going to make sure that both sides did what they were supposed to do and I didn't have an issue doing it. Right. Now, I think it's important for maybe some of our viewers and listeners who aren't super familiar with sort of the difference between the two organizations. When you say go native, you mean because you are detailed to the CIA that you start merging more and more getting absorbed into their way of operating. Because obviously everybody has to follow U.S. laws, but there are different laws that apply to both those organizations.

Craig's going to start wearing the loincloth and the war paint and everything. Right, right. And the FBI might have some things. That's only in the bedroom. Yeah. So we've heard. but so how did you how did you walk that line and how did you manage that and how did you keep both organizations you know sort of best interest at heart because you have to do that

when you're working detailed right right and you have to look on the law enforcement side of the FBI and the intelligence side of the CIA and also some very strict laws and authorities about what the CIA is allowed to do what the FBI is allowed to do and I mean, we can circle back around to it, but I'd also like to talk a little bit about that because this is where you get into a lot of conspiracy theories with John Q. Public that they think the CIA cannot operate in the United States under the law. Yeah, that's not. There's certain things they can't do here. There's certain things that they can do. And that falls under national resources.

Right. Or they think that there are CIA hit teams in every major city. We're not taking out the bad guys. Right, right. That's the FBI. No, I'm just joking. Yeah. So the way I walked that line was, and I made sure to do this, was I kept the memorandum of understanding on me at all times.

And I'm not kidding. There were times, not just speaking generalities here, where. Hypotheticals. hypotheticals where you know certain things were of interest to NR but because of

certain laws and just certain things that they couldn't do however as a detaile and as a bureau employee there's certain things that I could do so there was always sort of the tacit

hey you know we might be able to get that information if we had someone who didn't fall under the regs that we followed us. You know, and on the flip side, you know, you've got my home organization, the Bureau, always dealing with, okay, so there's a joint asset that traveling will,

who else is over there? Well, that is not within the purview of what it is that we're doing here. That's outside of the scope. But in being able to convey that message, it gave me a lot of credibility with both organizations. And that's the most important thing. You know, as long as they know that you're consistent and, you know, there's nothing more off-putting than and I'm going to sound like a jerk ass here, then the task force officer

who sort of identifies himself as, oh yeah, I'm FBI. No, you're not. You're with Phoenix PD. You know, just, you know, just own who you are. Right. So I was never, you know, I was very proud of the Bureau.

I understood the Bureau's background. I mean, before the CIA existed, guess who had that mission said? It was the Bureau. You know, and then, of course, you know, when, you know, the, you had OSS and then when it became CIA with a deal, you know, Mr. Hoover was like, hey, man, that's fine. You know, I'll hand that over. But we got everything domestic belongs to us then, if that's what's going to happen.

Right. So I did not have intelligence envy or organization or envy, you know. But I did notice that the culture. over there and this may rub some folks in the wrong way they were a lot less uptight um

there was the environment was a lot more free thinking um and over there I didn't feel micromanaged and

at the bureau it's just it's a totally different culture Yeah, they're cops versus spies Totally different Correct, but even within the bureau You have the CI guys And the in the cop guys

And the CT guys where They look at the CI guys You know, kind of like This is kind of weird You know And if you're not working CT You're CT is the flavor of the month.

CT is the Bureau. Right. You know. So if you're not working CT, you're kind of like, what do you even hear for? But that's relatively new, right? I mean, that's just since 2001 because prior to that. The Bureau's thing was kidnapping, spanned properties. Right.

Kidnapping. Right. Kidnapping, white collar crime. Right. You know, of course, organized crime. but once the events of 9-11

happened and it became hey look you're the tip of the spear of CT and even as an analyst

when they bring you in and they start you know racking a stack and who's going where you know if you go on CT

like shit yeah I'm CT where are you DT nobody cares about that now we care about it

right you know you know the DT analysts is now to do CT analysts I just got to imagine I mean, like you said, man, that's got to be kind of like a difficult job sometimes where, you know, you're detailed to the agency and they're asking you to do things that maybe you're not comfortable with.

And it's like, come on, Craig, do it for America. You're like, whoa, hold on a second here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, let's just say that Mike was kind of like, he was not like do it for America. like, do it because you're fucking cool. Yeah, right. Well, that's the best peer pressure, right? That's how we get down here.

Yeah. Yeah. So, but what was interesting about my time there is as I became a more of a subject matter expert because, again, you know, and I have no problem saying this. When it comes to the target sets,

whether it's LH, whether it's AQ, whether it's Daish, Those guys know it better. And I had to step my game up. And because of that experience, it made me a better analyst. And it made me a better reports officer because, you know, a lot of times IIRs are crafted just for numbers. Okay, man, I got out 15 to 20 IRAs, which are intelligence information reports.

So, yeah, well, you put out 20 IRAs, but it's all either. the circular reporting or there's nothing that people can do with this information. Well, I found that after my experience there, my IRs, my intelligence information reports, once again, we're impactful, you know, and that's saying it a lot because prior to going to NR, you know, I was a director's award winner for intelligence analysis. Like me and my team, my team and I should say, we were part of stopping a homeland plot that was a goal. Like it was our work that actually allowed for an individual to be interdicted at the airport before they could leave the country. So to go from being a director's award winner to going over to NR.

And becoming even better, it just, like I said, and then thinking back to where I was at 18 or 19, as a young man, like, wow, I couldn't believe it. Well, we can't just gloss over this. I mean, tell us what was this plot that you guys interdicted? Yeah, I knew you'd say that. Yeah, of course, Craig. Come on.

You know I'm running the wire here. without getting into two specifics there was a particular individual who was involved or had some connection to Zarqawi and there were some links to

there were some links to there were some links to a well-known raid on a military prison over in Iraq. I really don't want to get into specifics, but let's just say a lot of individuals in the United States military got in trouble because of the treatment of individuals who were locked up at this particular facility. Can't imagine what prison that would be, but continue.

Okay. So, this particular individual may or may not have been involved in a rate there, you know, against that particular location. And they had connections within our AOR, and those connections, and the plot ran really deep and from multiple locations within the United States and multiple entities that had been infiltrated. And it was, it was. Being a parent can be really challenging. Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five, with free support services to help them on their parenting journey. Everyone deserves someone they can turn to for help with parenting.

Visit child and family resource network.org today. Being a parent can be really challenging. Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of with free support services to help them on their parenting journey. Everyone deserves someone they can turn to for help with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. Serious enough that my irs were making the president's PDB, that we were briefing Director Mueller,

and that we had a multitude of fulfilled investigations, multiple agencies, multiple CIA, they were all involved. And our efforts prevented a homeland attack that was connected to the events

over in Iraq in that particular location where some folks have been pissed off because of the treatment of prisoners that this particular location. So Dirtbag AQI, was going to like hit Phoenix, Arizona? I didn't say Phoenix, Arizona.

No. Dirtbag, it was a nationwide plot, multiple targets. Holy shit. And it had gotten to the point that he had to be taken off. He had to be taken off the debt. He had to be gotten. Had he been able to go back to where he was going, there would have been

another large-scale attack. Like, like, we're talking like a string of bombings? We're talking like, if I was to actually speak to it, fools would be shitting their pants. We're talking large-scale,

multiple targets, where people just go on about their everyday life and never know that this type of stuff happens and those are the things that the Bureau does that they don't get recognition for because people never know about it right you know um and those are the type of events that when they're when they're when they disrupted then from that spends other things because now these individuals are connected to other individuals like okay so if this dude is here who was he hanging out with and why didn't they tell us about this guy you know so um yeah yeah

I can't get to specifics about it. I'm sure with you guys' connections, and like I said, I'm sure you guys know folks at Abu Garb who were there, who could probably clue you in. I think it's what you said is important for people to understand sometimes, is that with the CIA, with the FBI, with these organizations,

if they mess up and if they do something wrong, which they will because they're made up people and people do dumb stuff all the time. The word gets out. People hear about it. But people almost never hear about the successes. If at least to a big arrest, then maybe. But if it's a foil plot or if it's something like that, they'll never hear about it. And so it's very easy for the public to look at these organizations in a negative light.

because all you hear about are their failures. You don't hear about their success. And you'll never hear about their success. Right. And usually the failures are epic failures. Not just small ones. Like, oh, shit. How does that happen?

If you want your pal reporter Jack Murphy to know about these epic successes, it's Jack Murphy reporter at Protonmail.com. You just slide right in there. Just slide right in. I'm a nice guy. We'll take it from there. We'll take it from there. Yeah.

Like I said, I'm sure you know a lot more. people than I do, and I'm sure that they can, from the military side, I'm positive. There's some guys that you can talk to, and they'll be like, yeah, I know exactly what happened. Yeah, no, that's a baller story, though, Craig. And I like hearing about that kind of stuff. It's really cool that, you know, you guys were able to interdict that and stop a lot of people get killed. Yeah, it's, and the thing is, and to your point there, Dave, within that particular investigation. There were a lot of things that did go wrong that did not make the news.

Right. But had they made the news, it would have sucked for us big time. Right. Craig, were there, I imagine it was challenging, because we've talked about this, that it was challenging when you're with assigned to NR. Were there times when, you know, coming from the FBI that had, wants to process. execute cases, so you have to dot all the eyes, cross all the T's, you have to follow every law, every rule, every regulation to get to that point. Then you have the CIA who also have laws that apply to them. They're not lawless, but when they're overseas, they don't care about those countries' laws in order to accomplish their mission. Whatever times when you're working with them, where you're like, I don't even want to know how you guys get this information.

Man. It's even worse. It's even worse. when you do know how they did it. You're like, fuck, man. I really wish I didn't know. And again, I'll let you guys, I really think you probably need to get Joanne on. There are some things that we worked on together that once again,

and people have this impression that the agency and the Bureau don't work well together. And actually, they do. A lot of it depends on who the individuals are who are working together. And, man, I can just tell you what you're Wayne. You know, it's rare that you see somebody that looks like you in this business. So right away, you know, we clicked. And it's like, okay, bro, let's go catch some terrorists, man.

Let's get some shit done. And again, I understood what his mission was. understood what my mission was. And so if we were to go on a meet, if we were working and asked, and here's the thing about Shulene, here's the thing about my experience with the agency. They took me under their wing and they made sure that I had everything that I needed to be successful in that position. And they didn't have to do that. You know, and he made sure that I had everything that I needed to be successful. And he also made sure that, um, hey man, when I'm going out, I'm taking you with me. Um, and I'm taking you with me because

you have an object that I don't necessarily have. And, um, and I think that that allowed us to do some really, really, really good things and some things that, again, I don't feel comfortable talking about, I think, and I'm going to talk to him. You guys need to get him on here. I've been trying. I've been trying. Okay. He has the comments.

He can speak to some of the things that were really excited to your audience that I was a part of that I'm not going to talk about. You know, no, I've, Juerwein even worked some stuff that I was involved in the periphery as a very young soldier in Iraq. So, yeah, it's pretty interesting. Yeah, yeah. But back to my point, even with the chief of base, Mike Wright, who I told you, he gave me some requirements that he had got from headquarters. He told me to fill him. I can tell you, and again, I'm going to speak in generalities in filling those requirements. I was at a particular location, and I was under a pseudonym. And I had filled the requirements. And talking to the individual who was helping me feel these requirements that individual's boss comes over to me. And he says, look, man, Christian Gann. He called me by my full name. And I get goosebumps thinking about it now.

I'm like, how the hell does he know my full name? Because I was there under Nalius. And this dude understood that I was pumping his guy for information. and the guy was giving me the information. He finally was like, stop. So, but that's the type of confidence that they had because that's how they operate. Like, look, dude, we're going to figure out a way to get this done. And we need for you to work with your people, which I did to put you in a position to be able to fill the requirements that are going to not only help us, but they're going to help you as well.

So that type of relationship, when you have. individuals who respect each other and understand their lanes. I understood my lane. They understood their lane for the most part. And you you have the support

you have the support of your management. Like I said, man, Manny, between Manny Valenzuela and Sothea West Steen and all the folks that they had my back. Any time that I was uncomfortable doing something, you know,

the first thing the man named will say is what does the MOA say? It's like as long as you, you know, you look at the memorandum, as long as you abide by that, you'll be all right. And, you know, I'd find myself in balance with certain agents, man, where they would have FISA's open. And because of the access that I had on the other side, I'm like, hey, dude, he's feeding you some bullshit, man. You know, this, we need to do some asset validation here.

Because based on what I'm seeing. Craig, are you saying some of the FISA warrants are fucked up? I'm saying, no, you said they were fucked up. No way, man, FISA warrants. I'm saying everybody loves their FISA warrants. My point is, if a dude is making an ass out of us, you know, just feeding us bullshit, then we need to do something about it because we're missing an opportunity to get information that's really going to help, you know, the rest of the U-S. as opposed to a dude who's collecting a check telling us some shit that, man, I could go to USA Today and read.

And then, you know, everybody falls in love their asset. I get it. But the one thing about the analysts is the analysts having a bit more, not just wave top, but supposed to have knowledge about a target, whether it's a strategic or a tactical target, is able to say, well, what I'm seeing here is not meshing with. If this person has this place been in access, why are we not getting certain information? because there are other individuals who have the same placement and access, and we can validate what it is that they're doing.

So that was one of the other things that I learned while I was over there, and it served as a great training ground for me as now that was going over to DIA. Right. Well, I want to talk about DIA, but before we get there, I want to go to some of the viewer questions. We had Jirwain here donating money to the cause. He said he's just here spying. Thank you, Jureen.

Joseph asks, what was your experience like with the FBI H.R.T? And to what degree has their mission statement evolved as a result of the global war on terror? My relationship with FBI HART was none. Okay. I knew some guys who I knew a mariner made, he set the record for whatever the run was for HRT, but I had no interaction with HRT was left. Joseph asks, for recent law school grads today, how difficult is it to get into the FBI as a special agent? Not difficult at all.

it's a matter of fact with everything that we've gone through with the past administration and what I see come in with the new administration it probably will serve you will Brendan G asks who is more dangerous Chinese PLA or Russian FSB

yeah that's that's it's not the FSB it's the GRU who actually need to worry about who's more dangerous you know, I would say that the Chinese threat in general is probably the greatest threat we face, simply because they're patient, they are the mindset of eventually over time. We are going to take our rifle place, whether it's tomorrow, whether it's in a thousand years,

and they're going to do what they need to do in order to be in that position. So in terms of the greatest strategic threat, in general, I would say the Chinese. MFZ24 says, did the surveillance work help with the analyst job? Does university education help refine analytical capabilities? That's a good question. And yes, like I said earlier, there are certain things that I would see in reporting. that some of my analytical colleagues just missed because they didn't understand the TTPs of the particular service. So, for example, I would re-reporting where I could actually see that our team had been made just based on the things that was being reporting, being reported within the report.

Like, hey, man, these are the activities of someone who knows that they're being watched. Right. And that itself is critical information that our folks need to know. Whereas had I not had that background, you know, I would not be able to convey that information. And then with the IARs, the intelligence information reports, those things go out throughout the community. So it's information that is actionable not just to the Bureau, but other fellow. or agencies who get that information. So if you don't understand what you're looking at,

then you're not able to pass that information. Right. And what, like, I don't know if you can talk about this if you want to, but like what are some of the clues that when you read something that you know that, oh, you know what, this person has made the team, so they're not going to conduct any operational acts. yeah yeah

yeah yeah I can't but I guess the best that I can say is um this is this is pretty general but all of a sudden the dude blows through a four-way stop sign right

right so you're saying if they go into like a very provocative type of movement something, then they know that they've been made. I'm saying that if you say to yourself, why the fuck, did they just do that? Yeah. You know, that's probably, that's what you're like, okay. Yeah.

So then let's get into the DIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency. Starting at the beginning, what is the Defense Intelligence Agency? I feel like a lot of people in the country are just like from the outset kind of confused. Like a DOD has its own intelligence agency. What the fuck is that? Yeah. And I actually fucking love my time at DIA, even though it was challenging. But DIA is the intelligence apparatus for the Pentagon.

Our customer is the SEC DEF and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs. That's who we report. That's who our information we collect and analyze our products are for Joint Chiefs Sector. And our focus is to support the warfighter. And that's why I really loved my time at DIA, is that the information that we analyzed, the products that we put out were used by the military by by SF

to conduct at times lethal acts you know kinetic activity and and I think one of the problems with the IA is the mission creep

you know I think that I don't want to say we because I'm not there anymore but they have a great mission and it has started to creep into what the agency does. And I think if, in my opinion, if DIA just stuck with what it is, our mission, which is to support the warfighter, I think that it would be a much better organization. But there's so much redundancy.

And, you know, there was a time in DIA's infancy. the focus really was what were the Russians doing, you know, the Russian military, what were they doing? And now they're in the C, they're in the transnational organized crime. They're in this CT and not CT and necessarily how it impacts the military, but CT in general.

So when you start getting mission creep, then questions start being asked, well, all right, I know what I think you guys are supposed to do put, why are you doing this? I liken it to you when you watch TV shows and there's, there's a, there's a, whether it be a spy show and the FBI shows up in this overseas and the dude's like, what the fuck's the FBI doing here? You know, and I sort of see the same thing with DIA and that we have a specific mission set, but, and again, I enjoyed my time there, but I found that every now that I'd ask the question, like,

how is this supporting the warfighter? Yeah, it's like it's watching that TV show lost. We're like, season one, you're like, okay, this is pretty cool. I see where this is going. This is interesting. But by season three or four, you're like, what the hell am I even watching here anymore? Yes, yes. I found myself doing a lot of writing on some things.

I'm like, man, this is really interesting subject matter. how is this impacting the warfighter? And especially, yeah, I was at Southcom. So I was a DIA body down Southcom. And what I did enjoy while I was there was the interaction that I had with seven group down at Fort Walton. And we would brief those guys on the activities of a certain shield. group that may be active in the AOR and the potential of there being a mutual interest or convergence of interest between the two where one group is supporting the other.

And there was just- All the bad guys in Gotham City teaming up on us, man. And it's just like, okay, look, guys, based on what we're. we're seeing this isn't happening however when you've got uh when you have agenda analysis where somebody were your commander or whether your director where they may have a certain agenda that they're pushing um then they want the analysis to lean a particular way and when that analysis doesn't lean that way then all of a sudden you find yourself having to

craft papers where you have to put in a tone box where you make a disclaimer that I don't necessarily agree with this however this is what folks want to believe and then you find yourself having to represent your organization you know where you go you coordinate with the folks to stay you coordinate folks with CIA and FBI and they're like you know dude you know better to this

why are you even asking us this Well, because I've been put in a position where, you know, I know what I know, but maybe I don't know. And they're like, no, you know what you know. Right. Right. I'm supporting somebody's agenda. Yeah. There's nothing like somebody going and testifying before Congress and then coming back and saying,

now I need for you to write something for me to support what I just said. Well, sir, we can't necessarily do that. Great. Get me some proof. Right. Right. And then when you're like, hey, all right, well, I tell you what, what we'll do is we'll take these trips, we'll go to the AOR, we'll talk to the dad, we'll talk to state, we'll talk to station, and see what they say.

And they say, no, no, son. What the fuck do you think? You know better than this. you know so but those were some of the challenges that that I ran into there but it Southcom was you know sort of the wine and cheese circuit but the because of the the the history whether it be the Amia bombing you know you have the the large you have a large Lebanese population in certain areas in the tri-border area. You know, so there's always the thought that, hey, something, something's going to happen,

and they're going to be working with certain organizations to make it happen. And, you know, you put that out there and you're not able to support it. So the way I would do it would be like, well, I'm not going to say that that is happening, but I can't necessarily say that it's not happening either, you know. So, and then what would happen is individuals would, they start shopping agendas, you know. And that's the mission creep, right? Because, you know, special forces is very,

they're forward-leaning guys. They want to get into the fight. So if there is a transnational terrorism, narco-terrorism threat that spreads across three or four countries down in South America, that's a damn good reason for us to be down there, right? Well, that's what you said. I didn't say that. I'm just saying hypothetically, you know.

Yeah, you know, and what's funny with that is it was to the point that we were like, yeah, you know what, Craig, it would be a good idea. We need to send you to DHS for three months. because you know there's something there there's something there and this I can tell you

and this is what I knew shit was going haywire so this is 2015 and of course they're like ready going you're going to be Southcom DILA's

on to DHS at DuPont DUP Square circle whichever it is wherever the headquarters is So I'm there and I'm on the elevator and I get off and I see what I thought may have been General Kelly.

I'm like, what the fuck is General Kelly doing? But I wasn't sure. So they showed me to my desk and the individual who I was working for or reporting to you at DHS. It's like, yeah, just so you know, General Kelly, he's serving as a special advisor to Jay Johnson. And I'm like, what the hell? I mean, that's like Archie Bunker and Fred Stanford being buddies. You know, it just didn't make any sense. And then when I thought about it, it started making all the sense of the world to me.

you know, and, of course, not too much later, General Kelly ended up being the Secretary of DHS. But if folks understand General Kelly, one of his big things was what you were speaking of a few minutes ago about, you know, narco terrorism and these possible, you know, connections in the Iranian threat network in Lebanese, Hezbollah, So, you know, when you're that close to it, you see these things happen, you're like, man, it's all about the bottom line. But it sounds to me like you had some skepticism in your mind about how strong those connections actually were. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I took a couple of curve stomping. to say the least because you know when you're when you're asked to find something and you know it's not there

but you're like okay I'm going to make the effort then the one thing about an analyst you never want to compromise your integrity because that's the only thing that you have nobody will respect your reporting ever again ever or any of the product

No one wants to be the yellow cake guy. No one wants to be the centrifuge who's in Iraq guy. Yeah. Correct. So again, you find yourself writing these long assessments and then putting in a tone box where the translation where you say, hey, look, you know, based on what it is that we assess that low confidence level that such and such likely isn't happening. however, you know, we cannot say that it is happening, which translates into, hey, man, they're not going to give me to say the shit that they want me to say, but if you can buy some other motherfuckers to say it, then they can say it, and I'm all busy.

Right, right. So, you know, but I can say at DIA, my supervisor, Ron Mers, my GS-15, and it might be a Dazzle now, Joe Fernandez, they were all very supportive. But I can tell you, man, that was a really big deal. You know, Southcom really of the combat commands, you know, it's the one where folks, you know, kind of kick it. I mean, it's Miami, it's Derell. You know, there are not too many combat commands

where you're going to go in the parking lot and see Bittlies and Ferraris. and, you know, Mazarides. So in order for that command that has some relevance, there may be certain things that folks wanted, focused on that I can't say it wasn't anything.

The nexus you're describing would also, correct me if I'm wrong, drag the Southcom AOR into the global war on terror in a way that perhaps it wasn't before. Yes. now it was from the standpoint of on the Sunni side because of the things that may have been going on in the Dominican Republic and some of the you know some other places

whether it be Sheikh Faisal and folks like him but when you start talking the thing is a lot of people did not understand and don't understand that the Lebanese Hezbollah and the Iranian threat number, they are on a whole other level than AQ than al-Qaeda. Okay.

There's a level of sophistication that you have to have as an analyst to actually understand that there's a difference between associates, supporters, sympathizers, and made men.

And it's kind of like, you know, the underground, the auxiliary, yeah. Yeah. Just because I'm an Irish dude and I grew up at Belfast, that don't make me IRA. Now, it's a pretty good chance that I'm going to know somebody that's IRA. Right.

You know, I may even be a sympathizer, but that don't make me a member. Right. And I think that's sort of the comparison. And I think when you have individuals who are looking at it, they, because they don't understand the distinction, it's easy to create boogiemen that ain't actually there. Right. Yeah. And it's also, you got to understand too, man.

A lot of folks, man, they like making money. You know, they're not necessarily moved by a terrorist cause. They moved by, hey, man, I want a house in Star Island, you know. But because they happen to be Lebanese, the assumption is, where they got to be doing this man for for for LH and it just it makes for very interesting debate right whether they're doing it for the ideology or they're doing it just because it's convenient it's an easy way

to make money yeah yeah yeah right and even with that money being made and again I'm you know I was willing if there was a way if I could have made the connection, hey man, I've made it because then that made me the guy. Like, that's the dude who found the connection. Right. But, you know, the reporting is what the reporting is. Do you think that a lot of that is driven?

I mean, really Southcom is like last year's prom queen, right? Where all the money was funneled into the war on drugs in the 80s and 90s. You know, like their budget was massive. and then 2001 happens and all that money goes to terrorism. And now all the people work in counter drugs are like, look, we have to tie this in somehow to terrorism because we want a piece of that pie. Yes. Yeah. I mean, yeah, man, we can stop right there.

Yep. That's, hey, yeah, that is it. And I mean, for the people who listen to this, when we say it's about money, it's not that these generals are putting money in their pocket, but it comes down to training budget. It comes down to prestige. Prestige. Yeah. It comes in, you know, there are a lot of things that factor into the operational budgets, you know.

And somebody's got to pay for that school of the Americas. Right. Right. So you had some, an interesting parlay, if you will, in DIA, in DIA. Anything else you worked on there, aside from Southcom chicanery? Chicanery. Now, I was the lead Lebanese Hezbollah ITN analysts. So, again, I harkened back to some of the things that I did as a member of the SSG slash MST that I would see.

I'm like, hey, look, this is actually what's going on that some of my colleagues didn't necessarily get. But I also, it allowed for me to be able to interact with some of my former colleagues at the Bureau who were stationed at South Carolina. So it allowed me to be able to get information that normally, you know, one of my other colleagues could not get. Because, oh, yeah, you know, I was in class. I graduated from the same class with Craig or, as a matter of fact, one of our, one of the detail east of Southcom was actually in the Phoenix division when I was there. So there was a level of trust that I had built those folks there. No, my time at Southcom was, it was eventful and some of those things that would be of interest.

I can tell you that. the one thing that did happen that sort of was an interesting story so we are we go to Chile and we have we're meeting with our camera parts the Chilean military service

okay defense Chilean defense military service so I'm the only cat there who doesn't speak English I mean I'm sorry Spanish So I'm there with my man, Commander Clement. He's like, hey, Craig, I got you.

I got you. So after we have our meetings, they walk us to the officers club, right? And when I say walk us to, I mean, they literally funnel us through a canyon of buildings on both sides. I'm like, man, why don't they just, they brought us here in a van. why don't they just put us back in the van and drive us there? So as we're walking as a group, all these intel analysts, intel officers, you know, I start seeing these windows open. And people take me pictures.

So we get to the officer club and it's time to eat. And I have a seafood out. So I say to my man coming at a point, I'm like, hey, hey Phil I'm allergic to seafood and so they bring out the dish and you know

one thing about seafood man you can smell it like even if you like seafood smells like seafood and like Phil this is this is seafood man I'm telling you this is seafood it's like no dude I got you I got you this is not seafood

so and then he says in Spanish to one of a One of the cats across the table He's like, hey, you know, dude over here, he's got Seafood allergy. And I see the guy ready to say, I'm like, he'll be fine.

It's not seafood. So I'm like, okay. So I bite into what's on my plate and it turns out to be some form of like octopus. And I immediately, like immediately feel my throat, swelling up. So, so Comrade of Clement is looking over at me, and he's like, dude, what is wrong with you?

And I'm doing it's here. And so they rushed me out. They give me a Benadryl, and they take me back to the hotel. And I can just remember thinking that now I'm paranoid because we walk through this canyon of buildings, both sides, where they filmed it was they've taken these pictures. and I'm the only dude who doesn't speak Spanish and I'm the only dude who's kind of like sort of the turd in the bowl like I'm not really sociable

because I don't speak Spanish and I also know that they're collecting against us at the same time. And then I'm the dude who they tell that they didn't give seafood to that they gave seafood to. Oh. I gotcha.

Yeah. So, and I didn't eat anything but salad the rest of the trip there. You're right. You should have done like a skin patch test with the food. I mean. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I should have, man. I'm just thinking, you know, I'm, I mean, you have poisoned berries in the wilderness. I mean, obviously, or berries. You know, we kind of glossed over it that what was your transition like from the FBI to the D.A? Why did you decide to make that change? And also, since you were so closely tied into the CIA, how come? you didn't go be an analyst there instead of the DIA? Yeah, so the transition from, so when I went back to the Bureau,

after my two years was up at NR, I went back and I was working CI. I was a deputy chief reports officer, but I was also on the CI squad, and they had me doing some targeting, and I was also doing some collection, management. And I actually got to do some really good work with an agent by the name Casey Lee. Anytime Casey would go out again, he would be looking to recruit CHS's. He would take me, one, to help him be brief for a recruit. Two, because he understood that the things that I learned over when I was at N.R. would prepare me for what it is he was trying to do on the CI side.

So I had actually put in an application at DIA while I was still at in R. And again, going back to you, I really liked the mission set that they have. And I became more familiar with DIA. I mean, I initially applied for them way back when they didn't take me. And then when I was in our plot again, and I got re-exposed to them because of the 2008 plot that I was telling you involved, the Department of Defense and other targets. So I got my conditional hire from DIA while I was still at CIA and I went back to the Bureau, was working CI. I left mainly because I think that I had grown, I had grown as an analyst. And it was really tough for me to lead the Bureau because the Bureau, I mean, I cut my teeth with the Bureau.

For all the shit and the history of the Bureau, the Bureau gave me a shot. you know and again they gave me a shot despite the four and a half hour polygraph despite the fact that you know despite the fact that um uh

you know my my dad was I mean he was an attorney for USAA so he had spent time in Thailand he had all these foreign connections so it was really it was really a bitch and they they invested in

me and they didn't have to. So I never forgot that. But I really liked the mission of DIA. I really was like, hell yeah, man, I'm going to be supporting soft. You know, that's sweet. You know, I'm going to be briefing these guys. I'm going to be doing GIFOs, man. You know, so, and Gipo Joint Intelligence Preparation of the environment for folks who don't understand that.

but I was going to be doing things for elements that were going to be who had kinetic powers and we're going to be exercising those kinetic powers. Drop, dropping the elbow. Yeah. Right. That was cool to me. So because I had had a taste of the agency and I realized, man, that's some really cool shit. I've been in the bureau when I was like, man, that's a really cool shit.

but this over here this is the shit to me that's how I felt about it right because you know again I was supportive dudes with rays with what dogs were on I was getting to brief those guys so

it was an easy transition to me because I was really into the mission yeah yeah so for you because I mean you came in after 9-11, you had that anger, you wanted to make a difference. And for you, would you say that the idea of guys wiping out a terrorist camp or taking down a terrorist overseas? Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Outweigh an arrest being made on the corner of, you know, 57th and 3rd. Right. Yeah. It's a big difference when

you're taking out leaders of terrorist cells as opposed to chasing du rags and meth heads you know and to be able to say even though you can't really say but to be able to know

that you had a part in that to be able to know look I know that there are certain things that I did certain information that I provided that was used and made a difference. Right.

And granted, I was in Southcom, I was able to provide information about a group, you know, a network that allowed for certain techniques to be used to be able to infiltrate those groups. you know um and that to me is like i said that's that's pretty cool uh and i think that you know for a guy with with with sort of my demeanor like i said i don't i don't need to be the cat who i don't need to be the king but i like being the king maker i like the fact that i put the dude in the position to be able to say yeah i did that shit and i like to be the guy to say yeah but could have tell them without me, but everybody doesn't need to know that.

Right. Great. Can you tell us? Because we've had collectors on, and we've had some analysts, but maybe for people who don't go back and watch, like, past episodes. But we've had collectors on. We've had, like, CIA intelligence officers, and we've had people on here. And then we've had, you know, people on the very, very point, you know, from Delta or, you know, Vietnam or whatever. How does the analyst fit into that?

And when you say I provide this Intel, like, how do you make sense of all that? And, yeah, what's no critical junction? Yeah, because I think the public perception, if the public has any perception at all, is that like you guys just sit behind computers and punch on keys all day, you know, and we had that conversation with Sarah Carlson, I think, also. So, yeah, absolutely. I'd love to hear you elaborate on that. Yeah.

So for me, it is the idea of driving collection. I think without the analyst, without the person who actually knows what it is that you need to go get, it's kind of like, think of it this way. I'm cooking the meal. I need somebody to go get the groceries. So the collector is the individual. I understand what it is that is important for, if it's DIA, I understand. understand what is important for the chairman of the joint chiefs to know. I understand what

it's important for the SEC DEF to know about this particular target set, about this particular network. In order for us to be able to make our customer happy, I'm going to need you to go get that. And it's not, it could be perceived as a power thing. I don't see it that way. It's just that I have a certain skill set that is more indicative to my personality, that allows me to make an impact and allows me to help an individual do their job well. A lot of times, I can't necessarily say this about the agency, but I know with the Bureau, I worked with a particular agent by the name of Kurt Silver, man, he's a great agent, and Kurt was also detailed to the agency, but he's an agent, but he was

detailed to the agency. And Kurt would never go anywhere, never go debrief a CHS, never go to any taskings without taking me with him because he knew that there were just certain certain nuances and certain things that I knew that he would miss. And I, I, I, I, I, took pride in that. I took pride in the fact that this guy knows that in order for him to be successful, I got to have this guy with me. And to take it a step further, he had developed CHS's and he had developed some assets that if I was not alone with him, they were like, you know, where's that guy? You know, where is he? And to sort of go back, again, to bring it to how my experience with NMR helped me.

I actually as a detailee took an asset who is still currently active through the human cycle from identifying individual, from assessing to developing the relationship and actually pitching. Now, that had to be done, of course, with the case officer there. but the fact is I was able to take that over to back to the bureau

and with the agents that I was working with and they were able to leverage that and I helped them do the same thing I helped them close the deal so the bottom line is this it goes back to

intelligence drives collection. In other words, this is what we don't know, this is how we can know it. And this is what I need you to do. And I don't have a problem with somebody saying, yep, man, this is all me.

I'm like, it's all me, man, as long as I get paid. So you're really, in a way, the analyst is a little bit of the mastermind, the puppet master behind the scenes saying, this is what we want to know. So you tell your

collectors, these are the people who know what we want to know. Correct. Go recruit these people. They recruit them. Then you say, this is the information we want. You get that information. You pass it off to the ground forces, the operators. You say

go do this action against these people. So it's sort of like the Wizard of Oz controlling everything from behind the curtain in a way. Yeah. And at the same time, it is, hey, this information that you're being fed, it's not making sense.

So you're also able to, when you've got guys in the field, when you've got guys who based on information they're getting from, you know, kind of like you guys, you may talk to a tribal leader and they're giving you information. And then that information is assessed. And I'm like, hey, Jack, you know, hey, Dave, this does not make sense. Yeah. And it doesn't make sense because if, in fact, this is true, then this other asset that we have vetted in terms of their reporting, it's not matching what your guy's telling us. So you need to understand that you might want to be careful with what it is that your source is telling you or what that tribal chief is telling you. or what that stitch is telling you, because, you know, it could be a set of. So how specialized does an analyst need to be?

Because it sounds as though you need to be laser focused on a particular target set or topic or something to have that kind of knowledge. So analysts, you're not really general analysts. Like you focus on a very specific area or target? Yeah, there are some, well, you have strategic and you have tactical analysts. Okay. So a strategic analyst might be looking at, might be looking at, you know, what is, what can we expect China to do within the next 10 to 15 years in terms of what,

2PLA or what's MSS, what are they going to be doing? what are their goals within the next 10 to 15 years? And the tactical analyst is going to be looking at specifically maybe a particular individual or a particular target or particular group within that organization and what is it that they're doing. So it's more of the near term. It's more the near term target as opposed to.

And you do have, at the Bureau, you have tactical analysts who focus on, like for example, example, I was a soon extremist in an Arabian peninsula. That's what I looked at. But then you also had the China analysts. Okay. Okay. Where you had the Hamas analyst, you know, as opposed to a guy who was focusing on, you know, LH activity in the tri-border area.

Right. Right. Craig, B.P. Izzy says, as a federal law enforcement, this is eye-opening, you intel guys, don't sell yourselves enough. And then he says he initially served in Southcom, Corey Heights, when it was in Panama, now in Dural, where I'm closely working as a Fed. So that's cool. I think that's all the user questions we have, man. Do you want to talk about, you know, leaving the DIA and kind of where you're at today? Yeah, I left DIA not because I wanted to because I felt that I needed to. My next assignment actually, I was going to the defense clandestine service.

So as a comfort officer, I was literally PCSing within probably about three months. and it came down to my son was going into high school at the time and when I was down in the Southcom I was away as you guys know I've experienced I was away from my family my wife my kids and I knew that my boy

would need me during those high school years and it was the best decision that I ever made because he is now part of the regiment. I don't necessarily think if I'd have gone and in that position I was going to be deployed 30% of time. So I have served my country and that I have raised a boy who is now a member of the regiment. and hey son

if you're watching you're my man I'm proud of you we're proud of you man absolutely me and Dave are old washed up Rangers so we love to hear about

you know the younger generation that's out there keeping it alive yeah but yeah so that's that's why I got out and I went to

I worked down in the defense contract ranking arena doing a CI and inside a threat and what's funny

here is when you get into this arena you understand how it is that the Chinese are winning

oh yeah but but yeah that's a whole different story I enjoy it because now I'm spending time with my wife, my mom, and my daughter.

But had it not been for him, had it not been for that assignment, I probably would, I probably would still be there. But had I not, what I've accomplished and getting him where he is is the greatest thing I've ever done. Yeah. And the federal government jobs, like the DIA, like they do a permanent change of station. You can't say, hey, I don't want to go. I want to stay here. That's not how those jobs work, right? Not really.

Yeah. Not really. They did make, and again, this is why I have a special affinity for DIA. They did let me do 18 months at an offsite close to home. But like I said, my next position was with DCS and doing cover support. So that was, they were not going to do that anymore. Yeah. And guys out there, I just want to say thank you, everyone, for joining us live tonight.

And everyone else is going to watch this, you know, in the coming days and weeks. I just want to remind everyone, please subscribe to the channel. If you haven't, give us a little thumbs up. Leave some comments for us. Let us know how you think we're doing. And down in the comment in the description down below this video, you'll find links to our Patreon where you can support the channel and get access to the bonus segments that we do. If you want to get involved in that, there's also a link to our merch. If you want to get yourself a team house coffee cup or T-shirt, some good stuff like that.

The coffee tastes better at it by my mug. Yeah. Hey man, by the way, Murph, back in the day, when I had an old Twitter account, you said you want to give me a book, man. You want a book? I'll give you a book. You want a book?

I got books. I'll give you a book. Yeah. Well, he wants one sign. All right. All right. I'll connect with you after this. I'll get your address and I'll ship one off to him.

And Dave? Yes. I want you to reach out to. I want both of you guys to reach out to. I'm going to give you his information. Okay. And I want you to talk to. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

You're happy to. Absolutely happy to. 100%. Craig, I got a quick question for you. Just out of curiosity, when, you know, you were talking about when you passed by that CIA recruiter, and, you know, you said, oh, you know, your idea that the, that the intelligence word of the federal agencies, you know, don't hire people who look like you, right? And what, did that influence, like, how you guided your son?

Like, you almost shut yourself down, right? Or kept yourself out of the intelligence community because you had this belief. And I'm not saying your belief wasn't accurate. I don't know, but I'm saying that you almost, you didn't even give them the opportunity. opportunity to reject you. That's true, man. And, you know, your son ended up in an organization that traditionally is like, what, like 99% white? It's, you know, I mean, special operations by and it's changed. There's a lot of Hispanics. I can tell you, yes. That's an excellent, that's an excellent question. And it did, but that, that gentleman at that table did not allow me to self-eliminate.

He didn't. And as a matter of fact, not only did he not allow me to self-eliminate, but it's because of him, and it's because of Montel Williams, that I am here and I was able to expose my son to Green Berets, to seals, to Rangers. When I was in, when I was part of operations, that again, you might want to talk to Chouain about. I was working with agents who were former Long Tavers.

Mike Wright gave my son a kill patch, okay? Gave him. Okay, Lance Vining gave my son his Green Beret. And he told me, he told my son, he said, when you get your beret, you're going to give me this back. Well, my son is almost there. So my son was exposed to a lot of things. And actually, I was exposed to a lot of things.

My dad, had he not been in the position that he was in, I would have never met a guy like Montel Williams to tell me, hey, look, dude, this is something that you might be able to do. So I was never allowed to self-eliminate. And I'm here to tell not just brothers, I'm here to tell anybody, man, I'm not the cat that was supposed to be there. Not because I didn't have the acumen. It was because, man, I was a fucking knucklehead for a long time.

I mean, just flat out. I was. And just certain people throughout my life, those individuals who said, hey, look, dude, you can do this. Now, granted, you know, I'm not stupid. But there are barriers to be broken, but it's guys like me who have to break down those barriers and then blaze the trail. And my son's the next one.

That's awesome, man. Absolutely. That's awesome story. That's fantastic, man. One last question from Jim G. He asks, what college major or other skills would best prepare someone for a career like yours? I think, ironically, flunking out in law school, getting back in, flunking out, and back in probably best prepared me. Like I said, my counsel was like, man, this is amazing.

You know, I don't know how it is if I'm more impressed that you keep getting back in and flunking out or keep flunking out and getting back in. But anything analytical, and I have a master's degree in public administration, which I don't think is very relevant. I have a master's in international security, which I don't think it's relevant. I think, and I'm old. So when I went through, it was right after 9-11. So if you had a pulse and could pass a drug test and a background, you could get in. So I was fortunate. But I would recommend you focus on language studies.

I would recommend particularly anything having to do with Mandarin. I don't know if there's a particular academic discipline that would prepare you for this, but I would suggest that you focus on foreign area studies. If there's an area of the world that actually interests you, focus on that and become an expert in it and learn the language of it. you know, I'm, man, I'm an old dude, man. I'm one of the few cats, man. I, you know, I hear Spanish.

I understand it. But I don't speak it. You know, I don't speak Arabic. I hear some things I understand it. So I had to understand my target, you know. So I had to work extra hard to understand my target in order for it to take me seriously. Like, man, this motherfucker don't even speak the language. Why should I take him seriously?

But when I can talk about. you know, milestones written by, you know, a certain Islamic scholar. You can talk about Abdallah, Zah, and then you actually respect, not, you know, when I say respect, understand that who these individuals are and what motivates them. Right. That's what got me through. But from an academic standpoint, find an area of the world you like, focus on that, and learn a language. Craig, can I get you to stick around for like another, like, 10, 15,

minutes to do the bonus segment. Is that cool? Sure. Thanks. I really appreciate your time. And everyone out there, thanks for joining us tonight. Next week, we're going to have Wesley Morgan on the show. Wesley is a journalist. He just published a book called The Hardest Place. It's about the history of the Peck Valley. So I'm going to pry some nice rangers, some J-Sox stories out of Wesley. And there are other conventional units there, of course, as well. We'll have some cool things to talk about. So we'll have him on the show next Friday. Craig, thank you so much for joining us, man.

It's been awesome. It's been really good. Thanks to you guys. Cheers, man. We really appreciate your time. Thanks, everybody. All right, guys. So we're out.

We'll see you next Friday. All right. There we go, man. Craig, do you want to take a break before we do the bonus segment?