The Team House - Female Engagement Team/Cultural Support Team, Combat Camera, Mil Journalist | Amy Forsythe | Ep. 161

Episode Date: September 3, 2022

Amy Forsythe began her career as an enlisted military journalist in the U.S. Marine Corps and has included two tours of duty in Iraq and three in Afghanistan in addition to several other overseas locations. Amy is an award-winning journalist and her images and video reports from covering military operations around the world have been featured in numerous international and national media outlets through the years and continues to be used for historical purposes. Amy was first stationed at Camp Pendleton in 1995 and still has strong ties to the base and surrounding communities. She currently serves in the U.S. Navy Reserve as a Public Affairs Officer and is involved in supporting various local veteran service organizations in San Diego County. Heroes Live Here started as a passion project to showcase the memorials and markers on Camp Pendleton and has turned into a collaborative work of art that honors our fallen heroes of the post-9/11 generation. Buy Amy's book here: Heroes Live Here: A Tribute to Camp Pendleton Marines Since 9/11 https://www.amazon.com/Heroes-Live-Here-Tribute-Pendleton-ebook/dp/B09RGMTGGV To help support the show and for all bonus content including: -2 bonus episodes per month -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests -Ad Free audio feed Subscribe to our Patreon! 👇 https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Team House merch: https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963 Social Media: The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21 Team House Discord: https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here: https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links): https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample Want to sponsor the show? Email: 👇 [e-mail] #cst #teamhouse #jsocBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

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The Team House with your hosts, Jack Murphy, and David Park. Hey, guys, this is episode 161 of the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with Dave Park. And our guest tonight is Amy Forsyth. She served as an enlisted Marine. And today continues to serve as a lieutenant commander in the Navy, serving in a number of different positions in the public affairs. And also had some input and visibility on the female engagement teams and cultural support teams.

And she is also the author of a new book, Heroes Live Here. that we'll be talking about momentarily. So, Amy, thank you very much for joining us on the show tonight. Hey, thanks, guys, for having me. Great to be with you on this as we start our holiday weekend. Super. So, Amy, I'm going to ask you the first question that we ask, you know, all of our guests really is about their origin story.

And I'd really like to hear if you could tell us about, you know, your upbringing and sort of what took you into initially the Marine Corps. Well, thanks. you know, I was born and raised in Northern California, not really a high recruiting area, but I was just always drawn to the military. I grew up with grandparents who had all served, even my grandmother was a nurse in the Army during World War II overseas. And so I was just always drawn to the legacy and the patriotism of the Marines. And I tell you what, the Fleet Week in San Francisco was what did it for me. When you go to those Fleet Weeks, you just can't help but come away

with being inspired and want to serve. And so I saw those blue angels. I saw Marines walking down the street and enjoying themselves. I said, I want to do that too. So I pursued the recruiters relentlessly and wanted to join almost 30 years ago. So to the shock of my family, really. But that was what drew me to the Marines, especially,

just that dedication. And I got the job that I saw. specifically wanted as a combat correspondent so I could be a photographer and really a storyteller in the Marine Corps with great opportunities to tell the story of the Marine Corps. What was it that led you to combat correspondent? Well, you know, I first had known about the Marine Corps' Toys for Tots Drive, and I thought that was great. Well, I could just collect some toys and help get the word out about some events, And I didn't really understand that that was like a Marine Corps reserve function, but I was under the impression that that's the kind of job that I would be doing while I was in the Marines.

So, and I was always interested in journalism. I was on the yearbook club in high school. And so it just seemed like a good fit. And so the recruiters, you know, you had to take it back then a typing test and an English diagnostic test, have the right as-FAB score. So luckily, I met all those requirements. And it wasn't. it was open to women, you know, at that time and the early 90, late 80s, early 90s, open to women for a job. So it seemed like a great fit for me. And, you know, coming off the, really the Vietnam era with the Good Morning Vietnam show, the popularity of that. And then, of course, the popularity with the other movies talking about combat correspondence during the Vietnam area, those movies.

really influenced me. You know, full metal jacket with the character Joker, believe it or not, was, you know, a combat correspondent. And some of those stories really made an impact subconsciously about, well, I could do that too. Why not? If not me, then who, right? I think it's amazing that the most horrific war movies are the ones that inspire, like that full metal jacket inspired so many people to join the military. I don't think that's what Stanley Kubrick thought when he was directing that film. Right. Intriguing. Like, I want to be in that. I want to be in that. Yeah, yeah. So what did, what was your impression? Because this is like you say later 80s, early 90s, I assume what was your impression of Marine

boot camp when you went? Well, surprisingly, my, my recruiters tried to prepare me for Marine Corps boot camp and get your running up, be ready to be yelled at. And I was like, I played sports in high school and you know my mom was always yelling at me for something so I was I'm I'm good I can do this and so when I got there of course it is a little bit intimidating and you're not sure what it's all by design you know you show up in the middle of the night and you get on the yellow footprints and people are yelling everywhere but I was kind of surprised and really three months flew by and it was just quite an experience that kind of lives with you forever really you can't really ever shake that sort of indoctrination and so you know once a marine always a marine and those memories kind of live

with you and so it was quite quite easy i wouldn't say it wasn't physically demanding um so i was one i was considered sort of older than most of the other girls i was 22 when i was at boot camp so i was one of the older ones so it sort of seemed um easy for me for the most part, really. Interesting. And then what was the correspondence course like? Did you cover journalism and photography? Was it the whole skill set? It was. So I was lucky enough to be a student at the Defense Information School, which is now located at Fort Meade, Maryland. But it's really a premier training house for all the services who go there. And you get trained in radio operations, video production, back then in the print around the right and be an editor at a newspaper.

And then, of course, do the community relations and then the media engagements and training our senior leaders on how to engage with the media. And now they've incorporated a lot more of social media and, you know, understanding media in the information environment. But I spent about seven or eight months there and got a full, I would say almost like a bachelor's degree is worth of media. training that really served me well through my career and then beyond working in TV later as a reporter. But that's initial training at the Defense Information School was just second to none, really top training. And there's a lot of other people that have come out of that school and served and gone on to careers in, you know, entertainment industry and radio, television, newspaper. So it's kind of a legacy we're very proud of at the Defense Information School.

I believe wasn't Hunter Thompson a Air Force journalist? I think so. There's some other notable names that have come through that school, definitely. That is a long time for a military school. I mean, especially when you spread it out over so many different topics, and it's not like a technical school, like engineering, you know, like that's eight hours a day of that long. That's right.

It's very intense, but really one of the best. journalism training pipeline schools out there. And so you get some really good talented, you know, all the military photographers that come through there and other journalists and video production. Pretty much everything you see on divids is produced, which is the defense video imagery distribution that comes from the students and all the services that go through that school. And the public affairs officers as well go through the training pipeline there. So it's some great training initially. So I was there. It took me about a year to once I finally hit the fleet after boot camp and then the training

and then got to my first duty station. And so you did about eight years as an enlisted Marine in that position? That's right. Yeah, my first duty station, I had orders right off the bats over to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba at the Marine Barracks there at the Marine Security Detachment working as a combat correspondent. I was assigned to actually the AFN or the Navy Broadcasting at the time and I was doing radio and covering stories there in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. And it just so happened, this is kind of my first wave of real world operations going on.

If you recall, in 1994, when the Cubans and the Haitians had a mass migration to come to the United States. So they got on rafts and boats and any way they could set sail to try to reach Florida. Meanwhile, we picked them up at sea and brought them back to the big. base and what was known as the very first elements of Camp X-ray, which would evolve through the years. But we had about 60,000 migrants on the camp at the time on a base that was designed for 4,000 people. So I was right in the thick of it, documenting everything, and really got to see a joint task force stood up. And then we conducted a non-combatten evacuation operation where we got all the family members and non-essential personnel off the base because things had just gotten. so bad with riots and people were breaking out of the tent camp cities. And so it was great to be

part of that firsthand and see just how our military response to humanitarian crisis, but then folds into the preparation for a joint task force and doing some of these humanitarian missions. So you were hitting the ground running. A lot of people think that nothing was going on in the 1980s and 90s in the military, but oftentimes it's not the case. Right. And so it was a great training ground for me. I was a, you know, brand new to the military and had my camera in hand. And I was just trying to tell a story and learn as I, as I was going, going. And then you eventually you had a, did you have a break in service between being an NCO and an officer? Well, I stayed. So I left active duty after eight years so I could go back and get my bachelor's degree. But I stayed in the reserves. And then, uh, right after I left. active duty and was in the reserves actually earned the civil affairs MOS and I was assigned to a reserve

civil affairs unit here at Camp Pendleton and while I was getting my bachelor's degree here at Cal State San Marcos in north San Diego County, 9-11 happened and so sure enough people were getting the phone call getting mobilized and so I had been mobilized several times for active duty by the time I ended up getting a commission in the Navy years later. And so I just continued my service. So it sort of felt like I never left because of all the demand for mobilization for someone with my skill set. But it was a great lead up into becoming an officer in the Navy, which expanded my opportunities and horizon to just continue doing and serving in different capacities and within public affairs. Was there a specific reason that you went to civil affairs? Was it just

because that was what was available in the reserves or something? Well, yeah, that was a great, a great experience for me. So one of my last assignments while I was on active duty was covering the civil affairs unit, which I'd never really heard of. They were doing a drill weekend. And I said, oh, come cover it while I was still on active duty at Camp Pendleton. And then they said, oh, well, we drill once a month and we're looking for, you know, help. Can you?

I said, well, I'm going into the reserves. And maybe I need a unit to join. And they said, well, sure, we'll attach you to our unit. And while I did that, I was able to go through the training that, and I earned the Civil Affairs MOS, and it was very helpful because I ended up getting mobilized to be public affairs for an Army Civil Affairs Task Force in Afghanistan. So it was really just a confluence of good timing and really just a willingness to kind of like extend and learn something new and what that really important mission is in the moment. in in our military as civil affairs. So I'm starting to pick up here that you're through your career, you just have a ton of training and experience in that sort of,

that sort of interface between the military and society, between being a journalist, a civil affairs specialist, and then a public affairs officer. Yeah, you know, I sort of brought it all together and I've been lucky enough to want to really, you know, at the heart of being in public affairs, you have to love what you're doing, because you're always out there talking about, you know,

showcasing and sharing the courage it takes to serve. And you want to tell people that and you work with the media and you community doing community engagements. And so really bridging some of those gaps out there. Really, full circle, ultimately the bottom line is recruiting top talent, right? We always are looking for the next generation to fill our shoes and to make sure that parents, coaches, teachers, and all those influencers out there are sending their best young people to come and serve.

And, you know, if not me, who's going to tell them what to expect and how to recruit the next generation? So it's been a great kind of a balancing act. And 9-11, of course, changed the trajectory of my career so much, just like everyone else. So what was your first deployment to Afghanistan? sound like when did that happen? Well, right in 2002, after we started bringing more boots on the ground, really, I got the call and got mobilized. And so in December 2002, you know, I've been a whole year, but really they committed more

resources and they realized they needed a civil affairs task force there. So I was like a global source. We said we need one Marine to make a joint task force and an army unit. So I was on a plane and headed for Afghanistan. in December 2002 to serve at a Joint Task Force Civil Affairs Unit there in Kabul. This was the early days before ISAF, before resolute support, you know, the unknown, because I didn't know a lot of people that had already been, and this was before Iraq and everything. So I was just trying to learn everything I could and figure out where do I fit in and what can we make of this.

and really excited and exciting, you know, opportunities to what we thought to go in and, you know, help people and move the mission forward of, you know, eliminating the Taliban or, you know, we weren't really sure at that point what we were doing. But we had a lot of civil affairs projects or rebuilding, the reconstruction, the schools, the partnering. Right. Really at the standup, really, of the provincial reconstruction teams. And that was a partnership with the State Department. And so we opened up the very first eight PRTs is what they were known as. And so that was very, you know, new and progressive to try to partner with the locals and state department as well. And when you when you arrive there in Kabul, did they know what they were going to do with you?

Did they have a plan for this marine attached to this unit? Or did you guys have to figure it out as you went? Yeah, well, they did. I was a replacement to someone else at gunnery start. She had been there. And so she'd kind of carved out her way and I fell in her footsteps. And there was some liaison there at the embassy, the old embassy complex in Kabul and really just managing and working with the senior leadership to develop some projects. But really, how do we communicate this back to our families, the states and what people were doing and working with the local Afghan media?

So some coaching and mentoring there that they were trying to keep things up and running. You know, we wrote some stories, took a lot of photos of the reconstruction that we're doing and inserted it into their media as well. And, you know, little did we know that how things would turn out, but really just trying to take those core principles of civil affairs and apply them in those early days. And going out, you know, to the villages, you know, some are four or five hours away driving. So we were on the road and trying to reach as many small villages in the different provinces as we could in that first year, 2002, 2003 timeframe. And then later in 2003, towards the end, they stood up the ISAF and big army came in and built up, you know, some of those major bases there in Kabul and then, of course, Bogram. started pouring cement and building hardstand buildings and brought in more troops. Burger King.

Yeah. What were some of the challenges and what was your impression like working with the PRTs in those early days? I mean, for myself, I think for most of us who went over there, I'm sure for you coming from Northern California, I mean, a lot of culture shock, right? And I mean, what was kind of your impression of what Afghanistan was like? and what it was we were trying to accomplish there from your position on the ground. Yeah, well, it was really exciting. And, you know, Afghanistan,

we all kind of hardly knew much about it, but it really, once you go there, you can never, it's so magical and mystical and ancient, you just really can't even, it's so surreal. You know, you just look up at the Hindu Kush Mountains and you realize that these people really have been untouched by the modern world and their culture, has been so well preserved, really. And so, you know, I realized just how insignificant and small sometimes,

you know, we are here in the States as these people and they're living, you know, kind of day-to-day and just basic survival. You know, it always makes you appreciate everything that we have and what we're fighting for and the things back home. And so that kind of creates some reflection, right? if you go, like people back in America don't even realize just the big world out there, you know, and learning their culture a little bit and understanding that we had such an enormous mission. And the impression that we could leave and make and turn was really, you know, one handshake at a time. And it kind of always every, each service member over there could feel like the weight of this is on my shoulders. I want to do the right thing and everyone kind of has skin in the game and wanted to try and make this work with the PRTs especially.

And it was a partnership with State Department. And so we were all in. Everyone was all in doing everything we could to make these PRTs work and build the schools and the hospitals and partnering at the academic at the university and Kabul and, you know, trying to create ways. So there was no model and there wasn't a playbook for this. And so it was all hands on deck trying to figure out creative ways to build capacity for the Afghans. What was your relationship like with the big military with the special ops units? Was it contentious? Was it cooperative?

Did it depend on the command? Yeah. I've always had great relationships. And people always wanting to, what can we do? What do you need help with? And so trying to tell that story is really just never ending. You know, there's always a way to reach someone else or what can we, what can we, what media can I help tell that story also. And that using, I say using the media, working with the media to help frame the seriousness of it and opportunities for them because they have such a lot of,

larger bullhorn than, you know, we do oftentimes. So helping them was helping us, you know, and if we could help also keep in mind that the American perception and the public back home, we had obviously keeping them informed. And so how do we do that? So it was just an omnipresent approach and trying to get commanders on board, the right people, the right spokesperson, training them, getting them comfortable, and then creating what are we saying about? this what are we doing to reflect you know the overall mission so you know can be quite daunting sometimes when you're not sure or do we have approval who's going to say what and and all those echelons and training echelons in our DOD in the military about everyone getting on the same

on the same sheet to identify opportunities to tell that story Is there was there a specific type of metric that like commands wanted to measure with you guys for success the way they would like with combat soldiers? Yeah, I think, you know, the heart of the story is always with the combat operations, right? The media were like, take me to the front line, take me out to where the troops are. And our goal is to get them where they want to go, get them out front, get them talking to the soldiers. on the front line. You know, the soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, they always make the best spokespeople.

And, you know, we know that the media, that's what they want. They want an unvarnished impression about what things are happening. And so finding the right balance and making sure we're connecting with the right people and talking about the stories that matter,

especially to that audience or a back-home audience. And so trying to figure out how do we talk to the media and get them to want to go out. And most of the time they do, and I've done media escorts for, you know, top, top media in our country, global media, international,

and trying to provide them what they've asked for and partnering with the right people. Can be challenging sometimes. But yeah, in the information environment that we're in now, it's more important than ever before to just make sure we have the right. partners, the right media partners matched up with the right service members to share the courage and talk about their own experiences from their own perspective.

Yeah, I mean, you're right. It's more important now than ever to share some of the Army's story or the military's story because if we don't do it or if DOD doesn't do it, our adversaries have a story they want to tell about our military as we see what the propaganda to China puts out. So I mean, if DOD doesn't tell the story someone else is, right? That's right. And so the urgency is, uh, and, and priming that and making it a top priority to be responsive, understanding deadlines, understanding the time constraints that reporters are under is very important. And so what actually when I left active duty, I stay in the reserve, but I worked as a TV reporter for many years covering different stories. And so I really got to

learn, you know, that in the media industry. And so now working as a PAO, I can definitely empathize and understand the constraints and the media are under. And so I think that helps a lot to build that trust with knowing just how important these stories are. But they'll go on without the story. So our goal is to always have a say and provide the right people to talk about the right topics. So there are, you know, some incredibly talented national security journalists out there. But I do got to ask, I mean, which was the most obnoxious to work with? And if they were a previous guest on this show or even myself, feel free to go for it. You know, I've had such a great experience with so many. I really have. And I couldn't say, you know, one was better or worse.

I've had such a great experience with all reporters that I've ever worked with. True professionals. You know, I just can't think of a time that I had a bad encounter. You know, I was rooting for them. I want them to tell the story and do a good job. And we want to, you know, make sure that our service members are comfortable and can feel proud about the work that they're doing and talk to their specialties. I just want to tell you, if you want to spill any tea on Jack right now, you're free to. No, no, we have to talk to the Socom PAAOs or the SF Command PAOs to get the good stuff.

Yeah, you know, I've gotten burned maybe a couple times, I would say, where we thought we were doing one thing and then the reporter comes up with something else. Yeah, yeah. You know, that bait and switch has happened before. But it all worked out. but there are some media out there who will bait and switch you. And yeah. Sorry, if a reporter does that, then do they essentially lose access or do you keep on giving them chances? Well, so being overseas, I'd definitely be escorted out and off and, you know, basically

remove from, you know, the camp and on a plane. If they're there on your dime, you flew them in, you're putting them up and they're In beds. Yeah, they're under and have signed ground rules. And so if they violate that, they would be off the premises, definitely, if they violated that. Now, giving them a second shot. They know they don't get second shot. So that's the thing is that they have to play by the rules. And they know they will not be invited back or have any access. So that they know that. Because through 20 years of experience, there's been some PAAs out there who do not play second chances. Yeah. So from this 2002, you said you left in 2003 from Afghanistan, then Iraq hits. Was that your next deployment? That's right. So the unit that I had been assigned to was ramping up the, you know, the major battles in Iraq, 2003, 2004, the heavy fighting in Ambar from Marines from Camp Pendleton. Yeah. And then it was kept going.

And so I mobilized in late 2005 and then deployed with the first Marine Expeditionary Force to Camp Volusia. And really my job was to cover all of Ambar with a satellite dish, a satellite link up to go live with commanders at any time with like media hits, basically doing live interviews. You know, you see the split screen going live with all the top media. So it was my job to bring a dish to do the uplinks. And we also, things, you know, deteriorated badly in 2006, the summer of 2006 in Belugia and Ramadi. And so I was all around the province, just taking that dish around interviewing top military, but also we worked in the pan-Arab media. So we were getting local Iraq leaders up on the net, so to speak, talking to the military.

talking to the media about what was going on. And so one of the hardest jobs, physically hardest jobs traveling in the middle of the night by air lugging these pelican cases filled with this dish and then setting the dish up, you know, in a safe manner. And so I did that for one year through that 2006 deployment. So that was very, I learned a lot and very interesting times. just really awful, as you can imagine, you know, we were losing up to 100 people a month at the time when, you know, the casualty rate was so high, mostly in Anbar, but some in Baghdad and around the country in Iraq. And so meanwhile, Afghanistan's still going on, but we were so all in that time. And so I also was going out on patrols with with the combat, you know, operating forces as they were going house to house, looking for bad guys, getting Intel, but I was out there getting footage, really getting footage and photos for the media who couldn't be there. So they had stopped bringing media to Iraq because it was just too dangerous and they didn't want to take the liability. So they said, well, if military journalists can

go get us the footage, the B-roll and the photos, we'll use your footage and B-roll for that. And so we go out every day and get that and then upload it and match it with the, you know, the commander's talking points or the whoever we had featured for live links to cnnn fox msnbc and all the cable stations so in that what really developed at that time in early 2004 was you know there hadn't been too many other women going on foot patrol in ambar with troops but what we notice when we're going the houses is that the women of the house would want to talk to any woman, you know, military. And so I was like, these women will keep wanting to tell me something. They want to talk about the issues and what's going on, where the bad guys are, and noticing

that we were able to get more information from them than the guys could from the males in the house for the villages. And so that was really the planning the seed of the female engagement teams. And so from that, a sense of urgency to ramp up this program, get some female Marines together, talk about what could be in the realm of possible to help gather intel and try to make this a partnered effort between, you know, men and women, Marines to go out on patrol to try to get more information. And so and then the program evolved. And so it was just a really interesting time to be there, just happen to be a woman to be able to see firsthand how the women, and Iraqi women were responding to seeing another woman.

Yeah. I mean, and it took them quite a while, both in Afghanistan and Iraq, to sort of catch on to the fact that, especially like you mentioned, the PRTs or whatever, while, you know, the men were doing whatever they were doing, the women would call the American women off to the side, you know, and tell them stuff that, you know, that the other people were trying to get and weren't going to get. Who's blowing up the wells, who's moving in and out? That is exactly it. I was blown away by the information, the willingness to want to share with, say, me or another woman and not with the men, obviously. So we took all this back to the drawing board and said, well, we need to get some women out there. And then, you know, be kind of more formalized the programs and the intent and with by design and, you know, doing some checkpoints, having female Marines out on checkpoint and doing those searches.

really made a difference. And then, you know, it elevated the women Marines, you know, to an urgency and a need and a combat imperative that was going to help save lives in the end and try to, you know, turn the tide in Anbar that we needed because things had gotten so bad. You know, we had interesting conversations about this topic with Alana Duffy and Sam Juan, who was a CST. And even, even I admit I had a mistaken belief at one point that, you know, these are societies where women have very little power. Why do we need to go and collect intelligence from them? But I think some of the things that they had to, that those two women

had to say and what you're saying, Amy, were kind of fascinating. And hell, half no fury like a woman scorned. When they come in to talk to the hum mentors and dish dirt, it gets pretty wild from what I understand. Yes. And, you know, so there was a Marine that I worked with, Julia Watson, who ended up. Being a parent can be really challenging. Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five with free support services to help them on their parenting journey.

Everyone deserves someone they can turn to for help with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. Giving a TED talk about why women in war matter. And I was fascinated by this. served with her in that deployment and she was really the catalyst behind the female engagement team. And what what she talked about in her TED talk was that, you know, it might say, well, women in uniform and American women, this, that, but really the women in war, so whether it be the mothers, the sisters, the daughters of combatants can influence in such a way we had never

really thought about that, you know, whether it's the mothers of a combatant or, you know, mothers of Taliban, ISIS, al-Qaeda, how are they helping or shaping? Or are they, you know, are they influencing in any way? And so trying to get a handle on that. You know, in that culture, the women of the house kind of run things. You know, they're a collective. They run things in that they can have a lot of say. I mean, but in the house, outside the house, none. But if we could just influence them a little bit to get the men, these young men, either to join the Iraqi police at the time. We were recruiting and sending them off in the middle of the night to go get trained and come back as an Iraqi policeman or Iraqi soldier. If we could influence them to join and go serve, we could win.

You know, we could win if we just had them to give permission to tell them to go with us, to go to get this training to become an Iraqis. lackey policemen at the time. You know, that was so critical if we could just get reach them. And so, but men, male Marines couldn't reach them. Only women Marines, service members could reach them. And we take off your helmet and they see that you're a woman. They're like, oh, let me, you know, let me show you my kitchen. Let me show you everything. And that was my experience. I was like, did you guys know all, you know, the commanding generals? Did you know this was happening? And I want to tell you my experience. So we're like, let's experience. Let's put more women out on foot patrol and kind of gauge the response.

And that's really how things took off. Yeah. Yeah, particularly in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, if you're doing, you know, battlefield interrogations or interviews on target or, you know, trying to find things out, you're not, if you're a male soldier, you are not pulling women into a room at all. You speak with them about what's going on, even though they might want to tell you or tell an American, what's going on. And really women, you know, female, you know,

American female military members are the only people who can do that. Yeah, and having to play in 2018 with women, soldiers, who were now part of this cultural support team, they're just amazing. Like the training that they were getting and it evolved so much and so much more of a formalized program and acceptance,

especially with the Rangers and, the special forces, you know, these guys really had accepted what had be, what we had learned in the past 10 years, which is really great to see and know that they know that women have a place in those types of operations. If you're looking for bad guys, you're getting intel, you need to be embedded in this and here's why is because the women and the children are, they know where the bad guys are and they know what's going on. And so trying to reach them, it was important. And watching the Army has adopted this and, you know, experimented with the success. Could you drill down a little bit deeper into how the CST program grew out? I mean, you mentioned it, but about how these two programs evolved and developed and became more formalized and integrated into the special operations units. I'm just, like, fascinated by the history of these things.

Yeah, you know, so from what I understand, you know, jumping back from 2006, and then 2008, I actually returned to Ambard province in 2008. And I would not have believed it if I hadn't seen it for myself, the tremendous progress that was made in Ambar province. Once a pulverized city, Ramadi had new buildings, and people were in college, and the roads were paved. Just a tremendous turn of events. And so really proud to see that if we could do it in Ambar,

it can be done anywhere. If it could happen in Ramadi, places like Ramadi, it could be done. And so it gave me some hope and inspiration there that if, well, in Afghanistan, if places like Masary Sharif or Condus, Kabul, even, or in, you know, Jalalabad, or just some really hard places to convert and make progress, those places were, were ripe for if we could just get to the root of the problem. And so more troops, more, you know, Afghan troops to join the commandos. And that training pipeline was amazing. But the cultural support teams were in there. It was just a, the pipeline training was, you know, 12 to 18 months. But the success

is we were, we were convinced that that was a key to success. And by all margins of measurement, we had tremendous success there with these programs. And so I hope that they will continue to be part of the training and a part of a key aspect to the success of special under special operations. And so while the perception was, well, special operations will never accept women. And it's going to be hard to get them to agree on that. They're the early adopters. You know, they're the ones that see the value.

because you're picking top women, dedicated women, people who are ready for this, who know what they're getting themselves into. And so there's just some tremendous young ladies out there who are ready for this. And I think with the change in mindset after we saw the success, special operations is ready for it. And going forward, I think we've really moved the needle on this topic. I don't know if you guys have heard and you've talked. talk to people. You have some believers out there. Yeah. Well, there's been historically believers and nonbelievers, right, in the special operations

community. And I think it's the CST program is interesting as well, because we have to keep in mind that when this started, when this program started, women were barred by federal law from combat positions. I'm not to, I know you know all this, Amy. I'm just saying for our audience in their sake. So the CST program really was kind of groundbreaking in that sense that you were, were, as you say, embedding female soldiers with special ops front line combat troops? It was. Having seen the needle move all the way from, say, left to right, it was just an amazing spectrum, like a pendulum, swing so far from one end to the other. And so here we are now where women are allowed to, you know, serve in combat arms MOSs from, you know, the early days where America wasn't ready for women to come and come in body bags was the, you know, the Desert Shield, Desert Storm mantra of why women can't go forward.

And, you know, I'll tell you a story about my boss in 2006, Major Megan McClung, she was a media officer who was killed in Ramadi by an IED. and she was escorting media at the time. And, you know, she was a Naval Academy graduate, triathlete, super, you know, gung-ho, Uber, Uber fitness girl. And she was killed. And so that really got people's attention. You know, a lot of people knew her. A lot of media knew who she was.

Bright red hair, always running triathlete, you know, marathoner. And, you know, if someone could, like her could be at risk for, you know, death and they realize, okay, like, this is for anyone and everyone. But she knew the risk and all women know the risk, but I've seen a real shift in the mindset between of men who, you know, weren't sure if women are all in or not. And if you know the risk going in, I think that that gives some trust there. Can I trust you? Do you know what you're getting yourself into? Do you understand the consequence? And if anyone, wears a uniform and, you know, kits up, steps off, they know the risk.

And I think there's some been just a little bit of move the needle with men, especially, knowing that like, hey, if she's willing to step off and do this, then, and she knows what's at risk because I think there's been about 150 women who have been killed in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. And so while it's not the super significant, it does say we know the risk. it's worth it, we're going to do it. And for that, I think some men, it's opened their eyes and realized that the tide has turned, you know, as 20 years ago, that would be almost unthinkable of where we are today.

Policy change had caught up with the actual thing where women were serving in combat, serving in combat zone. But when you don't have like clear parameters of, you know, anyone was at risk, right, just your mission. So that front line thing is sort of not, we all know that that wasn't really true to, true to life where it was maybe in the Vietnam era. Right. Right. And that really, I mean, just early on, the whole Jessica Lynch thing in Iraq, like that, you know, it was sort of like there really are no frontline troops or, you know, or lines in these wars. It wasn't. Anyone's at risk. You know, your cook, your intel, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're. truck drivers, your pilots.

And so while I'd say that that was really, it's tragic, but it's sort of necessary to get us to this point where I truly believe that this generation of new military members can see women as viable, trusted counterparts to go forward and serve in the mission. if they've been trained, they know that they've gotten the same training. And there isn't any skepticism like, can I trust you? Are you all in? Are you realize what you're about ready to do? So I think that for the 20 years at war, there's been some movement in that. And so now it's not matter of like, can you do the thing? Are you ready to do the thing?

So the best compliment I got when I arrived at the task force at Bogra, under the J-Soc umbrella working with the Rangers was like, okay, welcome, we've got a ton of work for you to do. We're glad you here. Let's get started. It wasn't, well, you're in the Navy and you're a woman. It was like, we have a lot of work to do, so let's go. And so when you can be welcome like that into a unit of that nature,

and I really didn't know what to expect, but that was the best compliment because they didn't really care. They were like, glad you're here. Let's get to work. And so by that, yeah, I mean, it's great because I think they're so far ahead in their mindset that they, they're not hanging on to this legacy of that. Because we all know it's all hands on deck effort right now. And time is of the essence. It's an urgent matter that our national security is at risk.

And we all need to be ready and prepared for what's next. So in 2003, when you went out on that first operation, and I'm not. asking you to throw shade or whatever. But how was your interactions with the combat troops around you on that first thought? Yeah, you know, that was, I do remember people, you know, some raised eyebrows and wondering, are you realize where you are, are you ready to be here? But luckily, you know, when you have a camera and you say, I have a mission, you have a mission, let's get this done that people are like, hey, if she's, if she's here and she knows what's going on,

let's just keep with the mission. I, you know, there's been times where people didn't want to cooperate or were hesitant or reluctant. But I think with anything, understanding where your place is and understanding your mission and your deadlines and your due outs and how to integrate with the staffs and really showcase what you're trying to do. have passion, people will cooperate. I think what in Afghanistan, the thing that really surprised me most was that the Afghans had never seen really a woman's face with Western and then blonde hair. And so their impression was they just couldn't stop staring.

They're like they'd seen a ghost. You know, they just had never seen anything like it before. So, and some of the males are like laughing. You know, like they've never seen, you know, this type of woman before. So that was the biggest kind of hold up sometimes as these men didn't understand they'd never seen it before. So it was quite interesting. And the CST program has been since shuttered. But as you say, the needle has moved, right?

I mean, now we have female rangers. We have a female green beret. We're in a different world now, right? I think so. I think we're kind of over that initial skepticism and you know there there are probably going to always be people that say they have no place in you know the the regiment and the battalions or working on teams but and obviously in the Navy too there could be some resistance there but I think some of those lessons learn if we can retell those lessons and understand that it's no longer. or just the physical aspect of can you do it? It's the emotional and the spiritual, mental capacity to understand what you're trying to achieve. And not all men can do that, really. You know, if you're training to kill people, some men can't do that. And so women have that capacity and the physical aspects and the emotional and the mental resilience that they need

in order to be sustained at that high op tempo, I think that men are ready for that if they understand what women can bring to the team. I truly do think that this kind of new generation is a little bit different than the one that we grew up with. And I mean, don't get me wrong, I've had a lot of people in my career, you know, obviously go out of their way to, you know, not be helpful and didn't want early days you know in the Marine Corps especially in Guantanamo Bay Cuba where they were like fence line and you know code reds and all that was real like the mentality was real right and they did not want a woman even there so I know what that feels like but I do sense a little bit of different approach now and it's all learned behavior

and if they can see some good modeled behavior about all hands on deck I think that are viable applicants in joining the military right now is very thin. So I think that mixed with, well, who can do the job? And there's been some such great women who have paved that way, kind of pathfinders and said, hey, I'm going to pass this torch to the next. And we can bring in some really good, strong women who not just physically strong, right? I mean, I think everyone knows there's some really tough, tough women out there, triathlete level. professional athletes, but it's at emotional capacity to, you know, create, you know, take violence against an enemy, kill, you know, in any way possible, the enemy. And, you know, not everyone

can do that. That's a trained, you know, event that you have to get mentally prepared for. out of curiosity as a photojournalist how hard in a combat scenario and you know historically for military photojournal journalists how hard is it not to become like target fixated in a combat environment and sort of lose tactical awareness because that happens even when you know you have a gun and you're in a firefight but as a journalist trying to get the right photo is that tough for people it definitely is a lot of people ask me would you shoot your photos or your camera instead of your gun or you know of course um shooting a gun is more important if you're in survival mode or you're you're uh being attacked that automatically kicks in your training kicks in and the camera

can wait but really capturing that photo and capturing what is happening is your job is your job and if there's no photos it didn't happen right video where it doesn't exist. And so being able to know the difference and know when you need to shift and make that the priority. So luckily I've been in with some great Marines and teams and knowing that they know that I have a priority job and that they have a priority job. But of course, there's no hesitation with anyone who's a trained service member that they would ultimately need to engage a target first before going and switching to a camera if someone's life's at risk or your own. But being able to capture those photos and, you know, the photos that we cherish now so much

showing Marines in combat and the emotion and the expression and what was happening without all those photos, you know, you just can't really relive it. And so just like the photos of the Iwo Jima flag raising and some of those other iconic photos. of Vietnam that really, you know, we live by and that those are the ones framed in our, in our brain. And those are so important to carry on the legacy. You know, a lot of times I would take photos and video of service members and then find out just a day later or two days later that they've been killed in combat. And so the parents and the families just cherish that last photo or that last video report with them in it. And so just having that honor of,

you know, being able to share that with the families through my time of documenting so many people and sharing that could be their last photo. And so that's been giving me some real connection with people. That's amazing. Out of curiosity, are there moments where like a photo feels it tells a story it captures you know troops marines whatever in a moment but you decide not to take it because it also feels like invading privacy does that make sense like like if if they're emotional about something or like the world needs to see it but also is it private like is that a tough thing for you i don't know it is you know it has been especially at memorial ceremonies where we're taking photos of memorials and people are crying and it's probably not their best.

And while we want to document it and they might think, well, if they take this photo of me, they're going to put it, you know, and release it. But really, if you don't capture that emotion on the spot and then no one else does. So the balance of not getting too close sometimes or, but I do it anyway because I know that if I don't, then it could have been a missed opportunity. just never know. And so without invading someone's privacy, but they understand that you have a job to be sure. Sure. Sure. There was one time, though, I was on assignment covering the hurricane Rita. It was after Hurricane Katrina. And we had, we were airlifting some water to some

residents as National Guard troops. So Black Hawk, we were delivering water and things. And I got off on the ground. And there was a guy who was out there volunteering. and we started talking about his efforts that day to offload pallets and help push out water. And, you know, he just broke down and started crying. And I wanted to stop rolling tape. But the back of my head, I was like, keep rolling, keep rolling because this is good. This is good stuff. You know, I wanted to like not gratuitously like use it later, but it was good and emotional because we could share just how torn up he was about the damage and destruction.

What people are going through there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. And, you know, oh, please. Go ahead. Yeah.

Well, just the, those emotional memorial ceremonies, you know, you just through that year, especially in 2006 and then through the years, you know, you just, you can't even attend them all because there were so many. But when you do, you just want to not be on the job, you know, but after attending so many and taking pictures of the people and the speeches and the emotional roller coaster that journalists, military journalists, go through because they're kind of in it, then they're documenting it, and then they process the photos, and then they connect with the families. And so it kind of takes you through the whole journey and like at every step of, you know, in a combat zone of out

documenting, but then it's also the aftermath and the in-between missions, you know, that, at least for military journalists who go through that, feel a deep connection with people when you take their photo and you learn about them and hundreds, thousands of people that you connect with and to tell that story. It sounds tough. Is there a lot of burnout with that type of pace and that type of roller coaster? Well, you know, I think that it is very demanding for sure. And, you know, you can get burnt out because not only you're juggling that job, but you have to also do all the training and you go to the meetings and you're engaged and you're planning. And by far, I think public affairs folks get the best of everything,

but they do, you're never done. You're always working. You do kind of burn out and you need a break from time to time. But you just can't even do it all, you know, because there's always a soldier or sailor, airman, marine that you want to highlight and do a story and make sure they get the photos and what's the commander want. And so there's, you kind of have to. to cut yourself off and say, okay, it's Saturday morning. I'm not going to keep doing social

media for the command or I'm not going to keep writing more stories even though you can or edit more video because you just really could get sucked into projects. And for all the military journalists out there who, you know, we know you work overtime on all your projects just because you want it to be good. It's your name on it. It's your reputation. You want it to be good. And there's so many great ones out there, you know, and like a Jeremy Locke. I don't know if you guys know him. He was an Air Force. He just took some amazing photos and just some great photojournalists out there in the military.

Amy, could we talk about how you landed this job becoming the PAO for the J-Soc Task Force and going out running around with Rangers? We've had plenty of operators and Rangers on this show. We've never had anyone from your perspective. talk about it. I'd love to hear what your experience was like. Well, thanks. Yeah. So as a Navy reservist, you can volunteer or you can get involuntarily mobilized for certain individual augmentee billets that were going on, you know, through the years, the teen years, the 15, 16, 17, 18, 19. They had, you know, a handful of these ongoing mobilizations. And my original mobilization was to JT.F. Hoa, Horn of Africa, Djibouti.

And I volunteered for that. And I said, I want to sign up. I want to go because I'd already done Afghanistan and Iraq twice each. So I get in the pipeline. I go through the training and I get remissioned. And I find myself in North Carolina assigned to Special Operations Command. And at first they said, well, we're going to need you back here in the at the compound in North Carolina.

And I had packed my bags. I was ready to go forward. And things changed. I was going to be assigned to a Navy SEAL unit, you know, at Enhoa. And we'll need you to stay back here in North Carolina. So while I was disappointed, I did make a few phone calls. And I said, you know, I mobilized. I wanted to go forward.

That was the reason why I took this assignment. And they said, okay, no problem. We've got a job for you. you. We're going to send you to Bogram, Afghanistan, to support the task force. And, you know, they're so good at keeping secrets. I had no idea what the task force was, right? So I find myself landing in Afghanistan at Bogram there assigned to Camp Alpha, a very secretive place, but I was ready to ready to for the mission. I love that, you know, that was really the pinnacle, I think, of my operational years. I was a lieutenant in the Navy and kind of a fish out of water because it'd been

several years since I was assigned to work with the Army. But knowing that the information space in Afghanistan at that time was just this, you know, chaos, organized chaos, really, about what missions we were doing, civilian casualties, al-Qaeda, ISIS. Taliban, tweeting, people doing, you know, all kinds of things out there and doing missions and targets, targeting. And what were we saying? Were we winning the information were or weren't we? And it was really hard to tell because things were very confusing and convoluted.

But I arrived. I was happy to be there and learned how to work night shift. Had to get on the night shift sleep cycle. and just really was just eager to learn and understand, but couldn't have been more thrilled to be a part of that team, really assigned to the SOTF, which was the Special Operations Task Force, and it was really just mostly the Army Green Berets, the Special Forces, and then supported also, which was sort of a higher headquarters

at the task force there under the command of an Army Colonel or Ranger. And so all the elements designed to really just do the specific targeting of high value targets was our job. And I had a combat camera team that was embedded to do these missions with the, with the Ranger teams and the commandos at the time, these Afghans who were trained to go on partner missions. And also they had a women tactical female tactical platoons. Those were the Afghan women that were trained as well.

And so just sort of really pulled back the curtain and opened my eyes. So a lot of things that I thought I knew about having deployed four previous times of combat zone but those are the things that you just don't know that much about until you're in it and so i just could not believe um the level of professionalism and the willingness to tell the story so i was welcome really with with open arms and trying to create ways with the commander what are we messaging what are we talking about what what strike videos are we going to release and how to redact them and try to kind of use it as well-aimed rounds against, you know, the media there locally because oftentimes they would come out with something if a helo went down or someone got killed or injured

American, they would come out with something completely opposite and try to counter our narrative. And so it was just this tip for tack game. And so really took some, just some experimenting about what can we say, how fast can we get it out? And if we did a mission or a race, or got a target, we want to put that out because that would just counter the narrative. And so that was a lot of my job, too, working with that and embedding, you know, only top media cable and then top media like Newsweek time. Ian Pinell from ABC News Network came out. We got him out with the ODA team out in Nangahar for a good week.

And then he went on patrols and talked about life, that type of life out in that austere conditions. And so hopefully, if nothing else, it really just helped that day-to-day effort in that information war going on, but also to bring the story back home and putting it back into American living rooms where they may have lost track of what was going on in Afghanistan, wondering, are we're still there? And what are we doing? Because it had really fallen off the radar so much. So ABC Newsweek and a few others that we, Wall Street Journal even, had a great interest.

and coming out and going out with the troops. So, you know, I say ODA teams living out there in those austere conditions and what we asked them to do, it just takes tremendous courage and sacrifice. A lot of people don't even realize. So one of my best experiences by far working on that team. Did you see a shift in the overall military and the special operations in their relationship with the media in terms of wanting, you know, the embedding and things. things like that as the war progressed?

I truly believe that commanders especially were understanding the value of the information space because I want to say we're getting our butts kick, but, you know, if they're faster at tweeting and faster at getting the information out, that really could jeopardize our missions or could jeopardize targets we were trying to get because if they were just faster at it because we have, you know, more processes for. checks and balances and vetting and approvals and things like that. So we felt like we were just sort of or whatever grasp or gains we had, we were sort of slipping by if we didn't get this information piece worked out. You know, I was sitting right next to the miso guy and the

sci-op guy and under all the information-related capabilities, commanders understand the imperative of fast, flat, and getting that information out is just got to have a really well-organized, machine and people who understand how the media works and how the social networks and media operate. And I, they were, they were not hesitant at all to do things that I recommended and coming up with ways and what, what we can message or why we don't want to message certain things, why we let things go silent or why we want to emphasize certain targets that we got or, or, you know, we had something happen that was.

sort of a hostage rescue opportunity that had White House visibility on a mission. And so getting that thread all the way up from down at the 06 level, task force commander level, all the way up to the White House level. And everyone was like, what do you need? What can we do? How can we support to understand that if the thing happened, the rescue occurred successfully, that we were going to need to act fast and move really quickly with the information. And so everyone all through the embassy and on and at that task force level was supportive and understood the information environment. So I'm hopeful that going forward, information environment is where it's at. And, you know, PEOs slash comps communication strategy officers, that information will always be woven into the operations plans because without it, you really can't do much.

And, you know, those are, that's with the results and the means. media that has to be a part of the planning process. It's interesting. How much would you say that that media effort, the info, the information affects, like even the war effort back home, like you said, that Afghanistan just falls off the map and people in America, but in general, even going forward in future wars? Well, I think we have seen a lot of, you know, what Russia and Ukraine and China are doing with their information and propaganda.

And, you know, the U.S. has the Department of Defense principles of information. And we're sticking to that and we're going to play it straight and we're going to be truthful and we're going to tell the truth and craft, you know, carefully what we're saying and what we're doing to protect our national security and our troops and, you know, our missions as well. But I think that there has to be that integrated planning with people understand how what is strategic, tactical and operational levels, and everyone understands what that is. And so when we have a seat at the table and say public affairs has a seat at the table and your documentation teams, your photo, your video, your social media players,

that everyone needs to be kind of like level up when it comes to understanding how that works. It's no longer the days of, well, I took some photos and we're going to wait three days for the commander to approve them and then we'll release it. Things need to happen fast and they need to understand the imperative what we're trying to win. What are we trying to win? The narrative, the back home, the American audience, or are we trying to message something in a forward posture? What were those stories? Because as you mentioned, there's a story you're trying to tell locally to the local population.

And then there's one you're trying to tell nationally here back home. What were those stories at that time that you were trying to communicate? Yeah, you know, that's a great question because oftentimes there are two very different stories, right? If we're trying to message locally, I'll use Afghanistan as an example, if we had a high-value target, where it was a number two guy, number three guy, we wanted to let the networks know that we got the enemy. We got this guy. And so urgency with speed, accuracy to get that message out. so that it could affect the networks and then the human intel people could do their thing

and then work on new targets. But making sure that they knew that we knew, we've got it. Now, of course, that is not the message that we're sending back to the American audience. And so the stories that were generated to tell the American audience kind of different, but showcasing the talent, the technology, the people, the processes, the winning spirit,

back to the American audience. So oftentimes you have to wear kind of a different hat. Am I an operations, public affairs communication strategist, or am I, yeah, a public affairs officer where I'm doing hometown news releases about, you know, Sergeant John Smith has just got an award here on, on, on, on, Bogram, you know, and those are the things that the parents and the families like to see. And showcasing how proud they are of their service, not necessarily the operation, So those are across the spectrum of the types of content and writing for different audiences. But definitely in a forward deployed combat zone where we're posturing and positioning for winning, the public affairs, the information specialist or communication strategist needs to understand

that there's two different audiences and kind of balancing between the two. If you're trying to win an information war on a target or in a zone, you have to know how to do that. And then also the back home piece too. Right. Because the American people in general don't care about the number two guy in a network that they've never heard about before. Right. Oftentimes we were releasing these names.

And, you know, the media would pick it up and run it as is. But we, you know, just as a general release. But that doesn't mean anything. Right. Did you ever have a time where, like, you were trying to tell the story of, you know, the American soldier to the folks. back home and the fluttering American flag. And then like one of the green berets or the Rangers just did something so stupid to

sabotage it. And you're just like, oh my God, why'd you do that? No, you know, I was very lucky during my deployment there in 2018. And we really didn't have any incidents of, you know, shortcomings or behavior or character issues at all. So I know there have been some that kind of throw a wrench into things, but during my time I didn't, luckily. But, you know, a lot of that is handled by the rear area type PAO offices and a lot of that reach back. And so if you're forward deployed in the information space, you're really just focused on that particular mission and anything else kind of misconduct type stuff will wait.

We did have an incident, though, where we had a reporter on scene in Nangahar and at a small outpost, a forward operating base, and we had Wall Street Journal reporter out there, took a couple of photos, and they ended up getting mortared. And so they started returning mortar fire, and the soldiers, the guys out there, it was a mortar platoon at a base with Green Berets. but they were in flip-flops and their boxer underwear with Kevlar on and a helmet. And so that photo made it into the paper and people were questioning like, hey, you know, the typical star majors. I remember this, yeah. Why are you not in full uniform? And we had to kind of smooth that over. Like, there was no time to get in full dress.

They woke up, you know, just let this one go back. Army regs are going to have to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So that was like, oh, boy, here we go. Has the military journalist and the PA of a soldier or a Marine, a sailor says something on social media,

did it, you know, it gets pumped and you guys are sort of left handling it? Well, certainly you've read stories. You've seen it out there where military members take to the, the net and yeah Instagram and TikTok and post their personal feelings while in uniform or you know someone catches it on recording and it's very unbecoming and and so actually the Department of Defense just recently a few weeks ago released their first ever social media guidance which lays out some ground rules some parameters I think there's still more work to do with helping people understand their role with using public platforms and talking about their experiences.

And, you know, I know there's a lot of strong advocates out there of like more training or more understanding of how impactful that can be and how something can go viral very easily. So there's definitely a lot more we can do to help guide people. Now, I always think military members make the best spokespeople, what they talk about, honestly, their service and there's a lot of great influencers out there. there who have really inspired people to join and have a large following. But I think that the senior people feel that that can be very intimidating with these influencers, these military influencers in uniform that with that comes a lot of power and influence. Sure. So there maybe don't trust them. It's a trust issue or they're not sure. They want to know what are you posting

and sort of try to protect that brand, protect that legacy. But I think if we encourage them and bring them into the fold and help with here would be great. Let's leverage your creativity, your techniques, your style, your advocacy. We could go further together. But instead, I think the sentiment is right now they just kind of want to keep a lid on things, you know, because they haven't really figured out who's who, who, who can we trust. How do we want to amplify this? But I think in the next couple months or a year, I think we're going to see some more guidance. But I think people do want to express themselves and talk and share their military lifestyle, you know, for the likes and the views and the sharing that can either boost people's personas or boost their confidence.

But doing it in a way that can make other people proud and not cringe or get worried about. You know, because if someone's a Marine or in the Navy, they represent me too. So I want to make sure we all want to do what's right and what people are comfortable with. I've heard that the special ops meme accounts on Instagram send commanders just into a frenzy. And that these commanders are trying to find out who runs these accounts with all the diligence of Jay Edgar Hoover looking for communists in the 1950s. Like they're trying to suss them out. I believe it. I'm sure that they want to know who is behind.

It's probably people who are veterans or got out. You know, it's no one on active duty. But there have been some people who take a pen name and they created some really strong accounts. And nobody knows who's behind it either, you know? So, you know, there's a balance of like, let's not take ourselves too seriously, you know, or. can we use this to our advantage to recruit top talent to retain talent but then again you know when it crosses the line and to conduct and behavior and people need to know that online behavior is you know punishable by UCMJ and making sure that people understand that that is very influential

and it could have national security consequences as well that all falls under the shoulders of the public affairs certainly You'll get a call or a message saying, please check this out. Let's look into this. What do you think? Where do we stand on, you know, is this a message we want to continue with? Or let's get to the bottom of it for sure. It's very interesting.

Yeah. I mean, I feel for the public affairs officers out there, you know, having worked in the media and as a journalist. And, you know, I have to do my diligence. but nonetheless they're the guy that wakes up in the morning and oh here's an email from Jack Murphy asking tell me about your soldier who did insert completely bat-shit crazy thing here and how would the command like to respond would they like to offer comment on this completely insane thing and and I know that that puts the public affairs officer in a tight spot no one wants to wake up to that I know it really is almost a full-time job for some

of these larger units, you know, where you're managing so many things. And so some of those times, the rounds are just coming down range. And some of them you have to let go. Some of them you've got to like, okay, well, this is big. And then you get a call from the commander saying, come see me and what do we need to do about this? And so especially, you know, things that can be funny, sometimes they're very serious and require JAG involvement. So the PAO and the JAG are like, you know, tight. Yeah. Have you ever had to

talk a commander off the ledge and convince them that something maybe wasn't as serious as they thought it was? Occasionally, yes, yes, indeed. Or the opposite. You know, this is important because and we need to message it this way or here's my proposal for why we need to counter this or counter that. And so, you know, you're talking generational spans, too, you know, different perspectives on different things. And so it can be challenging with different life experiences. You know, some commanders never even on social media. They don't even know what it is, but they know it's bad. Right. So trying to. They're not wrong. Yeah. We've been just some common processes and then seek guidance, you know, from other people with different experiences and figure out what would be the

best way to handle that. But certainly coming at it from all different experiences. Some commanders are like seeing that a thousand times, not a big deal. Yeah, you know, we'll work on this and not that or something like that. As somebody who specializes in journalism and public affairs and also having sort of that background with the female engagement teams, like, do you feel the story of team lioness, the female engagement teams, the cultural support teams, do you think that those have been told enough and in the right way? Do you think there's enough public consciousness about those? You know, thanks for asking that question. It's hard for me to tell because I was in it a little bit and it's been a part of my journey to cover that. But I truly don't think that people

know that much about it or that the general public still thinks that women aren't even allowed in the Marine Corps, you know. So there's a lot of misinformation out there. And so it's just a constant, steady drumbeat of information told in so many different ways to just educate the public and help them understand so that they can, you know, influence like our next generation of people joining. But I don't think that that story has been told enough. But really it important to tell to our own troops and our own internal senior leaders who, have never heard of this and didn't know and still learn today for the first time that women were you know more than a hundred and some women were killed in iraq and afghanistan you know i just

don't think that those women get any kind of um those stories are told so for example you know we always hear about the uh dakotemeyer and the kyle carpenter and the other all the other brave service members, the Medal of Honors, the Marcus LaTrell, those guys. Great stories of heroism, but you do never really hear, and I'm often surprised when I come across women who are have our amputees or who have suffered great casualty in combat because I never knew their name and never heard their story at all. And so sometimes I think there's a misproportionate a disproportionate amount of attention paid to to men and and their heroism, which is great.

But oftentimes when we overlook the significance of just how important those sacrifices are and to show people that not only did women serve, women also were injured and killed in combat. So any chance I get to help pass that along, I do. Especially with, you know, for example, Megan McClong, who was my boyfriend. boss, you know, and as a major, she was a major in the Marine Corps who was killed. So, you know, that stereotype that only junior enlisted people at the front lines and the combat arms MOSs were the ones bearing the brunt of combat and, you know, of the Vietnam era, of course.

That dynamic shifted in Iraq and Afghanistan. So now we have, you know, field grade officers, women, non-combat MOSS getting killed. And so that just speaks false. I think and so any chance we get to tell that story that will recruit and retain you know top talent in any way possible whether it's men who want to serve with these women and say like hey we're partners like you're you're badass like I want to I want to whatever you've got you know and women to the same you know like I want to be on that team I want to be on the so calm team in any way possible and and there are people drawn to that and

That standard of like service, I think is there, but we just need to keep telling that steady drug. As you come across these female veterans or soldiers who are out there mixing it up with the enemy, I mean, feel free to send them our way. We love interviewing people like that. And our base is rather male dominated on this show because we're kind of special operations focused and women have only very recently been allowed in. but we're happy to reach out. We're not afraid of the cooties on the team house. We're not that regressive. So yeah, no, we're very happy to have any of those folks on the show in the future.

Oh, thank you. You know, and it's people like you guys and venues like this that really have that target audience to kind of open minds and help people like, hey, there were women going on these missions like front and. center doing all kinds of cool missions you've never heard about. And so opening those doors for the next generation, really, we need that top talent to come in and encourage them to, like, there is a, there is a place for you if you want it bad enough, you know. And I think it's coming. It's coming. It's coming. So thank you for. Yeah. I mean, and, I mean, it's not just the military, you know, the intelligence. I mean, we're still trying to make Marty Peterson a household name. So, but it's, you know, the intelligence, like, there are, there are all types of places

where women honestly just, I don't want to say they don't get the recognition, because their stories just aren't being told and out there enough, you know, um, yeah. So Amy, what have you been up to since that deployment since 2018? What have you been up to since then? Well, thanks. So actually, I was living on the island of Guam for five years during that deployment. I was working for the defense media activity covering all the large-scale exercises in the Indo-Pacific area. So I was traveling on assignment to places like Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Singapore, Palau, just some amazing places that we have troops working and doing partnered exercises and missions in the Indo-PACOM. And so really learned a lot about what, you know, living it, you can't help but feel the pressure coming from North Korea who had threatened to send a missile over to Guam while we were there. We woke up that morning when North Korea said, we're going to get Guam and everybody was like freaking out. So that was crazy. But in 2019, I picked up another assignment. I went to be the

P.A.O in two unique places, kind of off the beaten path for U.S. service members in Romania and Poland. So I was a PIO for the Navy's Aegis Assore, ballistic missile weapon system. And so I was traveling between the two, doing media engagements under the NATO umbrella. That was just an amazing experience. It was a hot fill and they needed someone. I'd just come back from Afghanistan and volunteered for that. And so that really shaped my opinion about what early what's going on in europe and ukraine's we were like uh where the egypt shore navy base is it's super close um to the baltic sea and really close to clenningrad and so you're right there on the border and you can really feel the pressure of what was uh taking shape um and what

things to come but i've since moved from guam back to camp pendleton and i'm now working as a uh civilian public affairs uh specialist uh at camp pendleton for a special for a special a unit where we where we train and teach and test, uh, C4I equipment for the purpose of acquisition for the Marine Corps. So we do satellite up legs, do computer programming and all these really cool high tech things. And we're actually hosting a big exercise and army exercise, army led exercise next month called project convergence. So it's all JADC2 stuff, the joint all domain command and control. Um, I've really learned, uh, a lot. about that and really enjoy representing that command and teaching people about how important that is.

So we'll be hosting that next month. We're drawing in, you know, lots of media and interest in that JADC2, what we're trying to all achieve there, very important. And I just wrote a book called Heroes Live Here, as you know. And so when I came back to Camp Penson where I'd been stationed for many years, There's so many beautiful tributes and monuments to the Marines of Camp Pendleton who had deployed for 20 years ongoing throughout Iraq and Afghanistan. And through my research, I learned that more than a thousand Marines just from Camp Pendleton had deployed to both places and were killed in combat. And so there's an enormous amount of, and that's more than any other one base or station in the country. And so the community here has been second to none in supporting the family. is left behind and really making that community partnership and being living here and being a part of

the operating forces that have come from camp penelton a really special place to be and so it's been great to be able to document that and we actually have an upcoming event September 11th so if you're in the area in Oceanside or San Diego or L.A., you must come see us on September 11th. It's a special day where two other authors, Marine authors, Scott Husing and Fred Galvin, who hot books, right now, the author of A Few Bedmen, and Scott Husing is the author of Echo and Romani. And we're connecting to do a live in-person panel discussion and hosted by special guest moderator, Robert Young Peltin. And for those you don't know him, what a treat it is to have Robert come and do a guest moderation. It's going to be Sunday, September 11th, starting at 7 o'clock,

in person panel discussion in Oceanside. You can get all the details in the show notes there. And we would love to see everyone who can come out. You don't want to miss this because bringing these guys together is just really a treat to kind of, I want to say reflect on a special day for all of us on September 11th. And we wish you guys could be there. That would be amazing if we could get you guys to come in. We wish we could have you in studio. But maybe next time when you're coming through town.

And we've had Fred on the show before, a great guy. And as I was telling you earlier, Robert Pelton's books actually had a pretty big impact on the direction of my life. Yeah. So it's cool you guys are going to be together. Oh, that's wonderful. Yes. You know, he happens to live in the area and just by coincidence, I had done an in bed for him

many years ago with an ODA out in Afghanistan, so we connected. But he's a perfect fit. He's just the master storyteller and he's been there, done that. And so it's going to be a real treat. So I look forward to seeing anyone who wants to come. We'll be live streaming it, though. So if you can't make it, we're going to live stream. So we want everyone to share and hear what these guys have to say.

That's amazing. So heroes live here. Can you hold that up one more time for us, please? Yeah, thank you. Yeah. And so you guys, obviously they can get you, they can buy it wherever they buy books, but also your website is heroes live here.com. And proceeds from the sale go to the Semperify and America's Fund. That's correct.

I partnered with Semperify and America's Fund. Some of you out there might be familiar. But it was really the original nonprofit, help our Marines. It was actually Marine spouses who around their kitchen table decided in 2003. that we have to do something, raise money to bring family members, fly them in, put them in a hotel so they can be bedside with their fallen Marine while they're doing recovery or recovering from their injuries in the early days of 2003 in the initial Iraq invasion. So it was the original Camp Pendleton organization, just near and dear to my heart.

But the book is really just filled with photos from Camp Pendleton and story. contributions from people about the base and the history of the region. This year marks the 80th anniversary of Camp Pendleton, where we've been training Marines for combat operations in World War II, Korea, Vietnam, and then, of course, in Iraq and Afghanistan. But the graphic design, we have many graphic designs in the book. We're all done by Marine Veteran. And some of these photos and stories of our units that are stationed here,

just really some fascinating backstory. Before Camp Pendleton was a military base, it was a working cattle ranch, part of that old California history that some people may be familiar. So I've got a little bit of everything in the book for people to enjoy. So thank you so much for sharing that.

Yeah. Hey, folks, buy the book. How about, you know, we have any questions. here from Scott. He says, what are your thoughts and have you dealt with reporters like Jessica Donati, who we've also had on the show, who just go out in the middle of Afghanistan to get the story? I've had a few free range reporters out there. We call them free range. Definitely independence out there. You know, we definitely highly discouraged that method of doing that and not coordinating

and working with the embed process and letting us help facilitate the best partners to work with. But great question. Yes, sometimes reporters have their own mind made up that they want to cover it their way. And oftentimes, if they're not under our rules or regulations or agreements, they are free to do that. And they put themselves at great risk oftentimes. times and then come come to the front gate begging for safe haven safe entry into you know a compound or something i've heard of that happening a lot of that happens too and i believe in jessica's case included it's because the military won't let them in bed or for whatever reason the military has

they shut them down and so okay well how do we get the story yeah it does put it put the journalist in a difficult spot and having worked as a journalist myself I know how frustrating that can be when you don't have a cooperation of your public affairs team or your Comstratt team. And so I'm trying to find that happy balance of I want the story, I want access. So you kind of have to tiptoe around a few things. But I think most PAOs, experienced PAOs know that being fair, granting access, providing the right partners and showing them everything that they would like to see, there comes

with a bit of trust. So trust is key when working with people. And, you know, I can't speak to this certain situation or her in particular I've never worked with. But oftentimes, being an honest reporter about what you're looking to do will get you, we'll get you the foot in the door. And you can take it from there. So what's next for Amy Forsyth? You told us about this event coming up. Otherwise, what's the next step for you? Well, I am, I'm looking forward to kind of opening the next level of either maybe another book or more travel now that COVID is over. Kind of got that itch to travel again, overseas travel doing some photography projects or video projects. I would, I think I want to try to bring my book to life and maybe do a little documentary and talk about these memorials or just share with the community.

but leaving a clear calendar can sometimes open up opportunities I don't know about. Absolutely. Yeah, so that's what I'm enjoying the summer here and just kind of taking things as they come. So, guys, next week, I hope you'll join us with Gail Helt. She was a China analyst at the CIA. Really looking forward to speaking with her. and Amy, thank you so much for taking some time out of your evening to tell us about your book and about your career and share a really unique perspective. Well, thank you guys. It's been fun chatting with you. I really, I can't be more grateful for your willingness to, you know, include women more and different stories and different perspectives and your curiosity about those female engagement teams and the origin.

And really, I think we've moved the needle. And now we're just looking for the next. next generation to step up and integrate and use those hard lessons learned for the past 20 years and apply those to the future because we'll need them. Ask those CST veterans to inbox me. I would love to have some more on the show. Well, that and the FET and Team Lioness, like, I mean, this goes back a while. And sort of the Marine Corps, didn't they kind of spearhead this? Yeah, that's right. It was the Team Lioness. emerged in those early days of 2006 in Anbar province where we were realizing some real gains with the information. And so those female Marines really played a key role in trying to get some information and make inroads any way possible.

But what they were doing as far as a consequence of that is that they really helped bridge some gaps between, you know, the male Marines and female Marines and to kind of so we can move a little bit closer together and close that gap and hopefully across services as well so we can work as one team, one fight, all together. I think that really moved the needle for us, for females, but also for men too. And now, you know, just a little bit here and a little bit there, and which will attract top talent out there for women who are thinking about the military as a career giving them some some inspiration and some openings to consider all right amy thanks so much we really appreciate it and uh we'll see all you next week so take care of people thanks thanks bye