The Team House - From CIA Spy to Fiction Author | I.S. Berry | Ep. 225

Episode Date: August 7, 2023

I.S. Berry spent six years as an operations officer for the CIA, serving in wartime Baghdad and elsewhere. She has lived and worked throughout Europe and the Middle East, including two years in Bahrain during the Arab Spring. She is a graduate of the University of Virginia School of Law and Haverford College. Raised in the suburbs of Washington, DC, she lives in Virginia with her husband and son. Grab Ilana's new book "The Peacock & The Sparrow" here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Peacock-Sparrow-Novel-I-S-Berry/dp/1797155563 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Today's sponsors: The Lite Sleeper⬇️ (VETERAN OWNED, US MANUFACTURED) the perfect addition for the light backpacker, ground sleeper, or prepper/survivalist. https://THELITESLEEPER.com/discount/teamhouse click the link to get The Lite Sleeper and get 10% off your first order! https://THELITESLEEPER.com/discount/teamhouse  The AARP Veteran Report⬇️ https://aarp.org/VETREPORT Free, Twice Monthly email newsletter that salutes military service & provides a mixture of inspirational human stories and practical info for vets. https://aarp.org/VETREPORT --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To help support the show and for all bonus content including: -AD FREE AUDIO -AD FREE VIDEO -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Team House merch: ⬇️ https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963 Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter:  https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Dave’s Twitter:  https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: ⬇️ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️  https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️  https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample Want to sponsor the show? Email: ⬇️ [e-mail] #cia #spyBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Hey, folks, I just want to take a minute to ask you to go in rate this podcast, let the Team House know how you think we're doing, go and rate us on whatever platform you're listening to this on, whether it's iTunes or Spotify or whatever else. Those ratings really help us out, and we really appreciate the feedback to let us know what you like and what you don't like. And if you do like the Team House and you'd like to support us, go check out our Patreon page and you can actually support the stream as well as get access to our team house. and you'd like to support us, go check out our Patreon page, and you can actually support the stream and well as get access to our bonus segments and bonus episodes. Yeah, if you're going to give us a great review, please do. And if you're going to give us a not-so-good review,

why don't you just send us an email and we'll talk about it. Special Operations, Covert Ops, espionage, the Team House, with your hosts, Jack Murphy, and David Park. Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode 225 of the team house. I'm Jack Murphy here with David Park. Dimitri behind there producing, pressing buttons. We don't really know what he does, but he's back there pressing buttons and turning dials.

And our guest on tonight's show is Alana Berry. She's the author of The Peacock and the Sparrow. She served as a CIA case officer and now writes espionage fiction. I read this book just a few months back, really loved it, wanted to have. have her on the show as soon as possible. So we really appreciate you jumping on here with us tonight. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. So, you know, we'll start at the beginning like we usually do. We'd love to hear sort of about how you grew up, what your upbringing was like and sort of how that kind of propelled you towards governmental service. Well, I think I grew up in the Cold War.

So, you know, for me, there was always kind of a clear bad guy. And I think, I mean, I think that that really was part of it. And then I studied abroad in college, and I kind of fell in love with the world beyond and foreign affairs. And so I think that really kind of pushed me toward intelligence. Also, my dad served in the Israeli army. And he was born in America. He just happened to be traveling in Europe when the six-day war broke out in 1967. Yeah.

And he was just like young and, you know, adventurous and went to Israel. And he was like a Galani. And he always told me stories about that. And I don't know. I just felt like at a certain point, you know, I wanted to serve my country. I wanted to do something. So. So, I mean, explain.

on this a little bit. I mean, you had this sort of father telling you some of these stories about conflict, but then also, you know, you're growing up and getting interested in international affairs. And I mean, you said you studied abroad in college? Yes, I studied at the London School of Economics. Yeah. And what was this like a thought in the back of your mind that maybe you were going to try to parlay this education into the intelligence community? Or how did that kind of percolate in the back of your mind. Yeah, I traveled around Europe. I loved it. And then after college, I interned at the Office of Naval Intelligence. You guys are familiar at that? Yeah. And I loved it. And I had applied to law school. And I kind of was like, I don't know if I want to go to law school. I'd actually

been accepted. And I, you know, I was like, I'm going to defer law school. So I deferred it for two years and applied to the Joint Analysis Center in Molesworth, England, and for the U.S. Department of Defense. And at the time, so this was, I graduated from college in 1998, and this was, if you guys remember, the Balkans were the big issue in the 90s. So this was post-Daton. So that was really what I worked on. And I would go back and forth from Molesworth to the Balkans.

And I loved it. It was just really fascinating. I loved Intel analysis. I loved working with the military. How did you, out of curious, how did you find out about this analysis of job over in Europe? I mean, the internet, you know, like you're not doing job searches on the internet or anything. No, we didn't have the internet.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it was through the Office of Naval Intelligence. And my dad had suggested it. He worked for the government doing various contracts in the national security sector. And he'd heard of Office of Naval Intelligence, and that's where I started. And I analyzed Iran at the Office of Naval Intelligence. But I fell in love with the Balkans, too.

I thought it was such an interesting conflict. It was so murky, much like the Arab Spring later on, you know, when I was in, Bahrain. But yeah, I just, I found the work fascinating. And I love sort of being in the thick of foreign affairs. And what was the, I mean, after doing that through the 1990s, I guess that winds down. I mean, I should probably ask you then, you know, a question that comes up a lot on this show is, you know, where were you on 9-11? And how did that impact your career trajectory? Yeah. So I spent two years working as an Intel analyst. for Department of Defense at Molesworth, near Cambridge, England,

going back and forth to the Balkans. And then I thought, and that's when I applied to the CIA. I felt like that was kind of like the next logical step. In the sense of I'd worked with the agency in my DOD job, I'd worked with the military, and I felt like I loved being overseas. I wanted to continue to be an intel. So I applied to the CIA, but back then the, the time was glacial, the processing time for your application took forever. It took like two years. So in that time, I went back to law. I went to law school. I had deferred my entry. So I went to law school at University of Virginia. And then 9-11 happened during my sophomore year. And so I had already applied to the CIA. I was already on track. So I think it cemented, you know, my resolve, my feeling that, because I was like the only one in my class,

who everyone else was getting whined and dined by these big law firms. And, and it was a little, you know, at times, I was like, am I making the right decision? Like, I'm foregoing this, you know, lucrative career at a big law firm. But then 9-11 happened. And, yeah, I remember we watched it, you know, on these screens. They canceled classes for the day. And we watched it on these big screens.

And yeah, I felt like I was I was doing the right thing. So did your your application with the agency suddenly get pushed to the forefront? You're getting phone calls. Is that? Oh, no, I wish. It was such a bureaucracy back then. I mean, I wish. Yeah, no.

It still took another. Well, no, it still took a while. But then I started. But I think that also impacted my willingness to, you know, I volunteered to go to Baghdad. and I think that that definitely was part of it. Well, also, I mean, you made the jump from being a DOD analyst to being a case officer. Was that the position you applied for? Or like, how did that come about?

Yeah. So, yes, I applied to be a case officer and not a CMO, which is a collection management officer, which they kind of describe as like the hybrid between a spy and an analyst, which might have been a better fit for me. I mean, the case officers are the ones meeting the sources more. and the CMOs, the collection management officers kind of sit at station there, the intermediaries between the analysts and the case officers going out on meetings. You know, I think I thought this is, I wanted to just be in the trenches. I wanted to be at the tip of the spear.

You know, I wanted to be where the action was. I loved being in the Balkans. I loved being in Bosnia. I loved, you know, working with the military. I just loved everything about it. Just the immersion of it. And so I think I thought. felt like a case officer's job would be more like that than an analyst job.

In reality, like what I found out, I think it wasn't such a great fit for me, to be honest. I think, you know, maybe I would have been better off as an analyst. I mean, I really loved my job as an analyst. And a case officer, you know, you use your brain in a different way. You use your brain to think about someone's vulnerabilities, you know, or their weaknesses or what kind of snacks they like or like how to run a surveillance detection route, logistics, tradecraft. So I don't think I realized fully what the job was like. Well, how could you either? Yeah. And yeah. So, I mean, I think it probably wasn't as good a fit as I had hoped it would be.

What did you major in college that sort of led to your analysis job and the internship and analysis job and then later the agency? Yeah. So I was a double major in economics and Polly Sye. And I had really been mostly interested in just domestic politics. But it wasn't until I studied abroad. and I traveled around Europe and I was like, wow, this whole other world is out there. And that's when I really became interested in foreign affairs. And in law school, I mostly took international law and national security law classes. So it was very much, it was very similar. So walking through the process, I mean, what year was at about what time when you got accepted into the agency to begin training? So 2002 is when I started.

And then so I did a bunch of training and then a rock happened, as you guys know. And they meet, and I just graduated from the farm. So I graduated from the farm in May of 2004. And they wanted volunteers to go to Baghdad. I mean, the station hadn't been set up that long. Before we breeze through that, I want to hear also a little bit about, like, what did you think of training at the farm and now you're learning all this trade craft? I mean, how did you enjoy it? What was going through your head at this time?

Yeah, I did enjoy it, oddly enough. The training was very traditional. It's the same training that I think they've been doing for years, which was, I mean, it's basically two components. You have the kind of psychological training, which is how to develop sources. you know, how to meet them, how to find out their vulnerabilities and their weaknesses and how to get them to, you know, betray their country and give you information. So that's the one part is sort of the human component. And the other part is the logistical component, which is the trade craft, which is like how to run surveillance detection routes and how to get snacks and how to, you know, do covert communications and how to do commo plans, things like that. So those were the two.

So it was very traditional. I mean, it was the same kind of like just almost cold war tech training, the same nuts and bolts that I think that the agency had been doing for years. And, you know, so I liked it. It was, it was intensive. I do, you know, it's interesting because looking back, I feel like there weren't a ton of women. And I feel like some of the worst sort of, I don't know, sexism. my experience was at the farm. But that really didn't, it didn't diminish that it was overall a good experience.

But actually the training, I think, was not, I mean, as I can talk about later, I don't think the training was really geared toward the kind of environments that we would increasingly operate in. The war on terror. Yeah. because I virtually I used very little of the training that I learned at the farm in Iraq. And so you graduate and you said they were looking for volunteers at this point. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there was there was kind of a debate. Like do we force people to go or not? And. Well, I've heard that they can't, that they, unlike the military, the CIA can't force you to go to a war zone if you don't want to. I don't think they can because it's civilian. I mean, I think that, you know, I mean, the worst that's going to happen is you get fired.

They're not going to, like, court martial. Right, right. What can they do? So, yeah, I mean, right. But there was talk that it was going to be like you were going to have to do it or you would get fired, for example. So, yeah, so I was, I started off right out of the farm. I had requested and I received Central Europe division. And that was sort of, and because I'd worked in the Balkans and that was sort of my natural fit.

But then Iraq happened and they needed people and I volunteered. I thought, you know, better me than than like someone with a family. I mean, I was, I don't know, Dave, how did you feel? I mean, you were in Baghdad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I wanted to be there, you know, like it's, you know, Jack was there too. Yeah.

You know, and yeah, I mean, I wanted to be there. Like everything that I had done in my life up in that point kind of was waiting for that moment, I guess. It was funny we were talking before the show. We were all in Iraq at the same time. I mean, I was further north in Missoule, but you two guys were in Baghdad in 2005, right? 2004, 2005 for you. Right, right. Yeah, so November 2004 to November 2005.

So almost all of 2005. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it seemed it seemed like the right thing. You know, Saddam was a horrible person and his sons were horrible people. Like it seemed, but, but, but. I think we saw the same thing there, right, that we saw in the Balkans, because you talk about the Balkans, with Tito going Tito was a horrible person.

But in a way, he was, you know, holding Yugoslavia together. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So same thing. I just thought, you know, this is the moment when my country needs me. I'm just going to volunteer. So I went. And, I mean, I had to do a bunch of training.

But I guess it wasn't that much. Yeah. It was not long after I left the farm. They plussen you up on like some weapons training and things like that. They did. Yep, yep. I had had a little from DOD, but, you know, we had different weapons when I had to go to the Balkans. We carried a barretta in the Balkans, and it was a block in Baghdad.

So, yeah. Did you enjoy that portion of the training, the sort of like, I guess, like paramilitary training, like driving around, smashing through barricades and shooting guns and that sort of stuff? Some of it I did. Some of it, so some of it, they had us go down to a course that was run by a company, I won't say the name, but they were a little bit like a little bit loosey-goosey with their safety. And they really did not like women. I'll be honest about that.

I was the only woman in my training group, and there were no women instructors at all. And, yeah. This wasn't a notorious mercenary firm that worked in Iraq, was it? I'm not going to say. Yeah, yeah. You know, there's a lot of, you know, whenever the CIA is portrayed in the movies,

all the agents are also like, you know, CQB experts, they all, but as a case officer, if it hadn't been for Baghdad, would that weapons training have been a normal part of your pipeline? No, absolutely not. No. And we're talking like minimal training. We're talking, I mean, I maybe had more than most just because I had worked for DOD. But, and they do, they do a little bit of training at the farm, um, weapons training and then you do a little bit of extra training it, you know, for Baghdad. But, but, but no. I'm, Oh, it's so funny because, like, no, I mean, most of the case officers had minimal weapons training. They didn't really know how to handle weapons.

I mean, every now and then you'd get a report in cable traffic like negligent discharge. And it was funny to me because the military had such strict rules about, you know, what to do with your weapon. And we really didn't. And I mean, like we had this bar, the Babylon bar and people would just, you know, get wasted with their, and their weapons were loaded. And it was like, you know, no one thought anything of it. Yeah. It was just whatever. And I remember constantly like going, maybe I'm skipping ahead, but like going to, you know,

Chow Halls in Baghdad. And I would have my weapon loaded because that's just how we rolled at the CIA. I mean, we didn't really ever clear our weapons. And I mean, the military would be on me. They'd be like, you need to clear your weapon. Like, what's wrong with you? And I was like, oh, sorry. This is my safety.

Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. But the military was always like, what's wrong with you guys? Yeah. What was your first impression when you got to Iraq? You know, I think it took me about a month to realize just how shitty it was, how dangerous. Like, really what a shitstorm it was.

I mean, I don't know. You know, I'd be interested in hearing what you guys think because, like, I remember landing. And it's like, you feel like, okay, this isn't so bad. And then you start hearing these sounds, like these thuds. I mean, I remember hearing these thuds in the office and then in our trailer, in my trailer. And you don't know what it is. And then like a big mortar crashes near you, you know, and you hear the, you know, the sirens and the run for cover. And, you know, it was like a delayed reaction.

I think like about a month in, you kind of, you kind of, you kind of. kind of realized, wow, this is such a fucking shit storm. Like, you're getting, you know, we were getting hit. I mean, I think from about the time I arrived to when the elections happened was like the worst of my time there. I mean, we would get hit maybe 50 times a day or in the green zone with mortars and rockets. And, I mean, what was, what were your experiences? I mean.

most of them's awful right it was it was it was I mean this time frame you're talking about was heating up and I mean by the time I got there was that summer of 05 and um you know at the time you know with the rangers being part of the task force I mean it's almost like uh like you're one of those toys inside the machine with a big claw that comes down and grabs you and then moves you and then pops you down so okay from fort Benning we fly in land in Missoule and now you're you're at war and um You are right up until the day you get on the ramp of that aircraft to fly home. So, yeah, it's sort of a surreal experience. But, I mean, yeah, things were very hot back then. Yeah. Definitely.

Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, and we would go out. So basically, we mostly stayed in the green zone and sources would walk inside the green zone. And I should say off of that, like I've written nonfiction pieces over the years that I have not published, but that the agency is cleared. So that's why I know what I can talk about with this stuff. So we would have sources walk into the green zone. So that was, you know, I guess relatively safe,

although we would often wait at the checkpoints for them to escort them in. And that was like a big target for suicide bombers was these checkpoints, you know, which were like bottlenecks. So that was shitty. And then we would occasionally go out in the reds. zone and pick up a source and then bring the source back, which was always harrowing and scary. And we had these big, like, gigantic hulking armored vehicles that just, we call them bullet-magnet vehicles because that's what they were. And, I mean, you know, the military had it so much worse.

They were going out every day. There was, there was no comparison. But I don't think I was at all prepared for just how awful it would be. Yeah. It's interesting, too, because the DIA would go out in thin skins. Yes, exactly. They would go out in disguise and thin skins. And the agency would make you guys go out in these up armored SUVs that would draw, like you're not doing a covert pickup or a clandestine meat in, you know, in an up armored

suburban or whatever. Exactly. I mean, you are 100% right. And I was very close with our, with our DIA counterparts. And that they were doing that every day. They were going out, as you said, in these beaters and, you know, in local garb. And I mean, personally, I felt like it was, it was maybe a better way of operating. But I don't know.

I mean, there were pros and cons on both on both sides. Yeah. Yeah. We got to give a shout out to our sponsors here real quick. So our first sponsor for this show is The Light Sleeper, which our friend Dustin Ward, it's a veteran-owned company, he's a ranger, who came up with this, should have been obvious, should have been invented 100 years ago, but he invented it. He took a wooby, a poncho liner, and designed it so that it has a pouch in it. You can put a sleeping pad in, and there's another pouch who can put your inflatable pillow in, and this whole thing stuffs up into a stuff sack. and you know anyone who served in the military particularly in the infantry knows that the poncho liner is basically the best invention

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They're amazing. We had one in the studio to show. I took it on vacation. Now we don't have one in the studio to show. That's awesome. I'm going to buy one. So in Baghdad, tell us a little bit more about, you know, what you're experiencing out there. I mean, I'm not going to ask for, like, details about sources you can't reveal, of course.

But, I mean, as deep as you're able to go about, like, you know, what types of people you're meeting with, what types of information you're trying to get. What were your objectives? Because CIA is usually worried about strategic level information. Now you're a tactical environment. Exactly. I mean, you said it perfectly. It was a little bit of a mess, to be honest. And because, and I don't blame anyone because I think it was so sudden. We were just thrown into this war all of a sudden. And like I said, the training was not geared toward that. Nothing was geared toward that. We kind of, they just threw us in Baghdad and it was like, go find Zarqawi. And that was it. And we had no idea. I was in the counterterrorist branch. And yeah, I mean, in theory, we were supposed to be going after Zarakawi. And, and. his cadre, you know, dismantling his network. And in reality, we were just, you know, we'd be lucky if we could find information on a roadside bomb. And we, we, like I said, we didn't, we almost never went out into the red zone. And we definitely weren't out like, hey, you know, what's

happening? What's, where's the next terrorist? You know, where's the next terrorist attack? We weren't out, you know, talking to people, schmoozing. So we relied on people walking into the green zone. And 99% of it, or I don't know what percent, but you know, most of it was just crap. And it was whatever people gave us. And we kind of had to hope that we would get a gem. And part of the problem was that, you know, the military had the same mission we did, which is different from a peacetime country. You know, usually the agency has a pretty clearly defined mission. In a war zone, we were kind of stepping on each other's toes.

We really didn't, there was no real difference in our mission. and the military was going out a lot more than we were. And they were actually like getting more sources than we were. But we didn't have a clear demarcation of responsibility. So it was sort of, it was just kind of a mess. And for example, we would have, we relied on this one tactical human team at one checkpoint in particular. When we would get walk-ins, they would call us. But that was just through their good graces.

It was just because we built a relationship with them. They didn't have to give us sources because they were just as much interested in those sources as we were. Right. You know, like it's interesting because you mentioned the military going out. And when you say the military, I assume you mean like the DIA, like the military intelligence, your counterparts. Well, not just DIA, but there were other, you know, military intelligence. Right, right. And was there, what was you?

You said you had a good relationship with them and you worked with them. But what was the organizational relationship? Like, what did the agency at all kind of come in as like swinging the big stick? Like, this is ours now? Yes. Yes. 100%. I mean, when I got there, so my background had been working, you know, as a civilian with the military.

But I was like overseas, I was like one of the only civilians. And I loved, loved working with. the military. I loved the culture. I loved everything about it. And I got to Baghdad in the middle of a war zone. And like the CIA was not talking to the military at all. They would not give them the time of day. They wouldn't share information. And they were like angry because the military wasn't talking to them. And I was like, this is ridiculous. Like you're in a war zone. Like the military runs the show. You know, you've got to play with the military. This is, you know, you've got to share information. So I reached out.

It was, I think, I'm trying to remember. It was the third brigade combat team or the fourth brigade. They switched while I was there. It was first, the third, and then the fourth brigade combat team, or I might have it reversed. But they were stationed at prosperity in the green zone. And they were the ones going out on patrols. And we weren't even talking to them. We didn't even know who they were.

So, you know, I said, I guess I just kind of, I was like, I'll be the one to do it. So I went over there and introduced myself, built a relationship with them. And I was kind of a liaison. So, you know, so we were able to build a better relationship with the military. I don't think it changed significantly the fact that we still weren't really coming close to Zarqawi. I mean, there were so many other factors. Like I said, we weren't going out. We just weren't even close.

We weren't getting the kind of sources we needed. Now, with this relationship with the military, obviously you needed them, or at least their like tier one assets, you know, in order to action any kind of intelligence, actionable intelligence you guys got. And how was that relationship for you guys? So, well, first of all,

we didn't really have that much actionable intelligence but yeah so that that was so we had so we had like special forces units that I guess I'm talking about kind of big army that we didn't have a relationship with

we did have a relationship with particular you know SF units yeah and they would have to they would help action yeah could you tell us about what it was like

a little bit more like when you did have to go outside the wire on some of those, you know, rolling meats and things like that, what that was like for you? Yeah. I mean, it was, God, it's so hazy to me. But, you know, it was nerve-wracking. I always, I don't know. I just, like, I felt like we were in this big bullet magnet.

Like, it was just luck whether, you know, someone was going to shoot at us or bomb us. And I remember one time we had a checkpoint out like in downtown Baghdad. And, I mean, just some random. It wasn't an official checkpoint. It was just some random dude with a gun. You know, it's like you get that in every war zone. And it's like, what the fuck? You know, like, you don't know who they are.

They're just going to. It turned out it was a Curtis checkpoint, actually. But I just remember that being like, oh, my God, I'm going to die. And so I don't know. I was, I was scared a lot of the time. I mean, I was. It was just, it was harrowing. Yeah.

Did you, what was your impression of like the GRS guys you worked with? I mean, they, like, we know some of them. Yeah. They're solid dudes, you know, the ones we know. I thought they were great. I mean, I love those guys. I mean, I felt like my life was in their hands and they kept us safe, you know. I mean, they were just awesome.

I mean, they were risking their lives more than anyone because they were going, they would take all the case officers out all the time, you know. So they were awesome. I mean, yeah. And as times going on through 2004 and to 2005, are you seeing the situation in Baghdad kind of like deteriorate more and more? Yeah. So it deteriorated pretty steadily up until the elections, which I believe were in January 2005. And so you guys were there, I think, during the elections as well. I think I was.

I'm trying to remember. Well, I mean, we all thought the shit was going to hit the face. on election day. I mean, it had just gotten so violent and so bad. And we thought every polling location was going to get blown to bits. Like, we thought this was going to be the biggest disaster in history. And it was, I still remember. I mean, that day, it was miraculous. Like, it was so peaceful. I mean, it was more peaceful than our own elections here. I mean, it was, it was incredible. I mean, there was like, I don't know, maybe two people killed that day. I don't remember what it was, but, but it ran so smoothly and people were lined up, uh, outside the polling,

the polling centers to vote. And I remember one, so I was like calling my sources saying, what's going on, tell, you know, give me the, the, the, like the sit rep. And, um, and, and one of my sources said, it was so jubilant. And he was like, oh my God, people, people would wait in line for hours because that's how important the right to vote was. Like even though they could be blown up by suicide bombers just waiting in line, they did it anyway. And this and my source I remember was like, yeah, people are waiting in line, but people brought chocolate and they're all sharing chocolate with each other. And I just remember like it was such, it was one of the best feelings I had when I was there. It was like, oh my God, like this is this is the real deal. This could really be happening.

And so I remember that day just being jubilant and a day full of hope. And then what's kind of sad, I think, is that, you know, in the months after, there was sort of this power vacuum. And I do feel like, you know, the, I don't know, all the ruling authorities kind of squandered the opportunity. because I think, you know, that was the time when the country had kind of united and violence subsided noticeably. It was like a huge, that was the most resounding blow to terrorism that I witnessed while I was there. It was not any strike or, you know, military attack. It was those elections. And it was really powerful.

And I thought maybe this is the start of something. But it was like weird, you know, nothing really happened in the ensuing months. you know, to build a functional government and then eventually it kind of lapsed back into chaos again. Do you guys have thoughts on that? Yeah, no, I think you put your thumb on it pretty well. I mean, from purely a military standpoint, whereas it's seen as a huge failure and in the end it was,

but there was a moment created, right? There was a moment that we were targeting what we call day QI at the time so heavily that they were pretty much wiped out by a certain point, right? And that created an opportunity, as you say, for governing authorities to step in. And whether you can blame the government of Iraq, you can blame our government. There's lots of blame to go around, lots of finger pointing. But whatever the case, that didn't happen. And that led to, you know, we all know what happened to Iraq after we left. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

So your tour in Iraq starts winding down. How long were you over there for? A year. A full year. So what's the next step for you when you get back home? So let's see. When I got back home, I, oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. I thought I turned everything off. It's live TV, things like this happen. Sorry.

Oh, my God. No, it's all right. So I think, you know, I took like a month off and I think for sure I had PTSD, although I didn't recognize it at the time. And I remember, oddly enough, I remember looking it up online at the time, like, what's the definition of PTSD? And I remember the definition was you have to have witnessed a very specific traumatic event. Right. And I was like, oh, I'm good to go. Like, there was no, I didn't watch someone get blown to bits in front of me, you know, so I'm good to go.

And now, of course, they know that's not true. Right. And that it's a broader definition. It's much more cumulative. So, I mean, well, I don't know about you guys, but I, like, for me, coming back was hard. It was, like, like, the obvious stuff, like loud noises. And, like, I remember Jim, Jim, Jim, wait, dropping on the floor like when the ground would shake, you know, I mean, that would send me into a panic and, and, you know, in traffic jams, like you want to have an egress, you know, you don't want to, or crowds.

I mean, even to this day, I still get panicky in those situations. So, you know, a lot of it was just adjusting to regular life. And that took me about a year, I think, to get fully, not fully, but mostly reacclimated. back at the agency, I basically bided my bid by, by, bid my time until I started language. I was supposed to do, I was supposed to do kind of back-to-back combat tours. I was going to go off to Afghanistan, which I had requested. And so they had me enrolled in Farsi language. So I kind of, but, you know, given the timing of the class, it didn't start.

to like the following fall or something like that, I forget. So I just I just kind of laid low at headquarters for a while and then did a year of Farsi. Yeah, so I mean, that's a whole year of Farsi. I mean, you must have been fairly fluent by the end of that. I was fluent. I mean, it was, it was awesome. Like, I loved learning Farsi. And it was one of the highlights of my time at the agency.

But in the end, I ended up resigning after that. I never went on the Afghanistan tour. I think I just, it was like I said, the agency was never a great fit for me, and I felt like I was ready to move on. Yeah. You also mentioned, and I mean, I've had other people mention this to me over the years, some of the sexism in the agency. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that and why you think it persists, you know, maybe in that organization in a unique way that, I mean, it exists everywhere in society. but, I mean, uniquely in the intelligence community. 100%.

Yeah. I mean, it's weird because, you know, I worked at DOD, and DOD was more heavily male than the agency was. And I never felt like a second-class citizen as a woman at DOD. Really, never. I mean, you'd have like a bad egg here and there, but as an institution, I felt very respected. And I think that, and not really true at the agency as much.

And I think the fundamental difference is that DOD, I think, is a transparent accountable organization. And I think they have such strict rules and they do like sexual harassment training and they're accountable. And I think the agency has just, it's so shrouded in secrecy. I mean, there's this culture of just impunity

and a lack of accountability and people just think they can do whatever and there are no consequences and they're kind of right. I mean, and I mean, it's very much kind of, like kind of an old boys network. And, you know, you didn't want to, you don't want to speak out about it because you're going to be blacklisted. I mean, I remember, you know, the head of a very senior guy in my division, you know, telling me he wanted to talk to me about, they did not send me to Baghdad in alias for no clear reason, which was, it was so, so assinite. It was like arbitrary.

They would, they would send some people an alias and some people not, and it was just luck of the draw. I was like, whoever your guest officer happened to be. And I'm Jewish, and I have a Hebrew name, Ilana. So I'm like, you know, I don't want to meeting with these. Like, you know, I don't want to meet with some of these people with a big Hebrew name. And they were just like, we don't understand what you're talking about. What does that mean? What's Hebrew, whatever?

Anyhow, so long story short, this, I ended up, by the way, just putting duct tape on my bag. That was my cover. So, like, these terrorists wouldn't. You know, I mean, I would listen to them at these meetings and they'd be like, oh, I'd be like, you know, where, who's behind this bomb? And they'd be like, the Zionists. Like the Zionist planted those roadside bombs. And you're like, okay, thanks. But anyhow, my point is that one day this senior guy in my division was like, you know, he asked, oh, did you go over an alias, you know, because you're Jewish?

And I was like, no, I didn't. You know, I wish I had. And he's like, well, come into my office and we'll talk about it. And I'm like, okay. So I go into his office and he like closes the door and he's like, you know, I find Jewish women very attractive. And it was like, come on. But that's the kind of shit. Smooth like sandpaper, man.

He's a player. Wow. Put on his sex panther before you can. Yeah. Yeah. And it was like here I'm like thinking, oh, finally someone's going to listen to my case that I for an alias. Like they're going to, you know, they're going to fix the process. Right.

Right. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that's a good example of the shit. You know, and what am I going to do? He was like one of the senior people in my division. You know, what am I going to do?

Like report him or, I mean, it wasn't a big deal. I was just like, you know, no thank you. But it just happened. Yeah. Yeah. So you depart from the agency. and what's the next stop for you? So that's when I used my law degree that I had never used before.

So, you know, like I said, I've gone to law school while I was waiting for the agency to process my application. So I had this law degree, and I had never taken the bar exam. I never thought I would practice law. So I took the bar exam like five years after I graduated from law school, which is ludicry. and I don't recommend that to anyone. And then I practiced law for a couple years.

And I worked for a really small national security law firm. And we were sometimes like on the other side of the bench from the agency. So, I mean, basically I like to say our firm kept government honest. Like we would represent people who kind of got screwed by the government, you know, which happens. A fair amount. Yeah. A bit. A scoge.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So, you know, people who had clearance issues or whatever, you know, had some grievance against the government. So I did that for a couple years. And then in that time, then I got married and then I had my son. And then I was just like, and then I just stopped and was mom for a while.

And then, so when my son was a year and a half, then my husband, so my husband works for DOD as a civilian, and he used to be Army. And but he, he was stationed, he got a tour in Bahrain. So for two years. So that's when, that's when I moved to Bahrain for my husband's job with our son. what was what was that experience like as a uh do d dependent with child in and in berrain and also as a former intelligence officer yeah no i know i mean it was like it was so kind of frustrating at times because i was like oh i just want to go out and like do stuff you know and here i am just like one of the i'm just one of the wives and i didn't really like that

but you know yeah um yeah so i mean it was it was interesting because yeah i was the expat community was interesting. I mean, it was such a, well, you got, you, Jack, you know, because you read my book. I mean, so the, you know, I ended up writing the book about Bahrain and the expat community is a big, a big part of that. And I mean, I just felt like the expats were so insular and so, like, privileged and elite. And they lived in this little bubble. And so it was, it was interesting for sure. I mean, but like, they wouldn't go out and explore the island. And I was so interesting. in the politics and like I would go out and um you know I'd travel with my son I would bring in places and I love to talk about the politics of the country and people were always like shushing me they were

like don't talk about it like we don't want to I don't know because you know there's not a lot of freedom of speech in Bahrain but I was like you know I think the monarchy is really repressive and and it was interesting to talk politics and yeah do you want to flesh out a little bit about Bahrain because I'm testing my own memory here. I read this great book. I've never been to Bahrain, but I read this great book years ago, sectarian Gulf.

I don't know if you came across that. It talks a lot about Bahrain being during the Arab Spring and how it, correct me if I'm wrong here, Bahrain is a Shia majority country right next to a Sunni majority country, Saudi Arabia, connected by a bridge. Correct. Bahrain going through the nascent,

Arab Spring, potentially a revolution, whereas Saudi Arabia has this Shia minority along the coast on the other side of the bridge. Do you want to talk about that, about the geopolitics of the region a bit? Yeah. I mean, you said it perfectly. You're so much, you're perfectly well, and you're perfectly informed. You said it exactly. I have my moments.

I mean, so there's a tiny Sunni monarchy. I mean, it's the minority, and they run the Shiite, they rule the Shia. some people call it a plurality depending on who you talk to because there's so many foreigners that's actually the majority like workers who come from the Philippines and India etc so yeah I mean it's it's sort of a weird demographic in the in the Gulf and you know that's different from other countries and that the majority is not ruled I mean they're not the rulers they're the you know, the subjects. So it was so interesting. And so the Arab Spring kind of spread to Bahrain in 2011. It began with this thing called the Day of Rage. And it kind of simmered and would flare up.

And it was very much in effect when I was there. So I was there from, we were there from early 2012 to the end of 2013, so almost two years, which was sort of in the, you know, in the center of the Arab Spring there. And it was so, I mean, it was very much in effect. You would see uprisings and you'd see the, you know, the government forces using like tear gas, which was not tear gas because you could smell it. It was some, as I talk about my book. I mean, they would use really heavy-handed tactics. And, and it was really interesting.

So the other interesting part, though, as you said, Jack, is so next to Bahrain is Saudi Arabia, which is almost. entirely Sunni. And it's basically Bahrain's benefactor. I mean, they support, they support Bahrain. And they're the ones who really supply the muscle behind, behind repressing the Arab Spring. Because Bahrain is a pretty inconsequential country without Saudi Arabia, and it no longer has much oil.

Like Saudi Arabia props up, props Bahrain up financially as well with oil. But on the other hand, so, you know, this is in press report. You have Iran that's, I think most people agree, is probably providing some level of funding and support to the insurrection to the revolutionaries, the Arab Spring. So, I mean, it was, to me, it was such an interesting conflict because there wasn't really a clear right side. Like, on the one hand, you have this relatively enlightened monarchy. I mean, and they're repressive, but not as repressive as some gold monarchies. I mean, I didn't have to wear, I didn't have to be all covered up.

and they're relatively tolerant religiously. So on the one hand, you have an enlightened monarchy that's backed by Saudi Arabia, which is like kind of our ally, kind of not, you know. And then on the other hand, you have these revolutionaries that are legitimately, you know, fighting for rights. They were denied representation in government.

They were denied being able to work in various ministries of the government, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Ministry of Defense, like all the important ministries, basically the Shia are excluded. So you have this legitimate movement, but then it's kind of being funded by Iran, which, you know, does not have good motives and wants to take over the goal. Right. And basically, you know, it's like a cold war.

It's like a proxy war that people don't realize is going on. And it's amazing that for being a proxy war between, you know, essentially like Salafist and, you know, Shia, you know, these two, very opposed competing interest that Bahrainis generally a peaceful, like it's a very advanced, you know, like technologically architectural, like things like that. Like they still, they still somehow get by through this. Yeah, I mean, despite like the simmering conflict. Yeah, that we don't have another like Lebanon, right?

We don't have another like Beirut or something like that. You're right. You're right. You're right. I mean, it never really, I mean, the Arab Spring never really found its feet in Bahrain. Well, the Saudis also sent the National Guard over to squash it, didn't that? Yes. Yes.

I mean, that's exactly right. I mean, if it weren't for Saudi, I think it would be a very different story. And Saudi should be heavily, I mean, not should be, but in like a moral or ethical sense, but should be from a self-preservation sense, very involved because they don't want a Shia. That's right. neighbor for Iran to, you know, influence. Absolutely. Yeah.

Absolutely. And also they have their own sort of pocket of revolutionaries, as Jack was saying, and they don't want it to spread to their country. Right. And then the missing, the other missing part of this, of course, is the American presence on Bahrain. Right. Right.

Right. And that's what was, I mean, that's what was so intriguing to me. It was like, you know, like, what side do we take? What role do we play? I mean, we have our fifth fleet there. And, of course, that's really. largely to, you know, fend off Iran. We want to keep an eye on Iran. So we have to be friends with the Bahrainis and with Saudi, but, you know, at what cost? Because there are these, you know, at times pretty

horrific human rights violations. So, I mean, that was so interesting to me. I don't have a good answer. I mean, I think, as you can probably tell from my book, I mean, I think it's such a, it's such a complex calculus. And there are so many different facts. which which is what made it interesting to me. So when you got back from Bahrain and this whole experience, I mean, was the was the book already in the back of your mind or was there some more things that kind of led up to that? Yeah, not really. I mean, it wasn't really in the back of my mind. It was such a fascinating setting. So so that was kind of, you know, I definitely felt like, oh, maybe I should write

about this. But I didn't necessarily have a clear story. And originally I started writing, it was it was kind of like a spy-flavored thriller. And then I realized, you know, it was like all my years of spying sort of, I don't know, they just, I kept thinking about them and I kept thinking about, you know, just some of my experiences and operations. And I don't know, when I started writing and editing, I thought, you know, I need to write a spy novel. Like I just, I felt like, I mean, so there was one operation.

in particular in Baghdad. So I had, I had helped to, one of my sources helped to track down this, one of the military's top 10 targets. And he was alleged to have participated in the 2003 bombing of UN headquarters in Baghdad. Oh, yeah. We had, we had Bob Adolf on this show, who was the head of security for the UN at that building. Yeah. Yeah, his wife would.

was injured. Yeah. Because she worked there. Yeah. I mean, yeah, if you guys go back into the previous episodes we did with Bob Adolf, you hear him describe that, that event in detail. Okay, I will for sure. Yeah.

So there was, so there was this guy, I mean, this terrorist, alleged terrorist, who was supposed to have been part of the bombing and who was also supposed to be responsible. So I wrote about this an article, but I didn't mention this part because I feel like this is so tricky to talk. about but he was also but it was cleared by the agency so he was also alleged to be responsible for Mopen do you remember I'm trying to remember I think he was promoted to sergeant sergeant Mopen he was the last US soldier who was still

missing in Iraq for for a while I don't remember exactly what happened but does this ring any bells I'm trying I'm trying to think I mean there were a couple soldiers or when our fob got attacked and they pulled one or two guys off the fob and then executed them on the side of the road. But I think they found those guys relatively

He was with the 724th transportation company. Mopin. It's M-A-U-P-I-M-A-N. Yeah, he was missing since a fuel convoy came under enemy attack in Iraq. Okay. 2004. And at the time, he was the only

the only soldier still missing. Like he, you know, they hadn't found out what had happened to him. And this guy was responsible, was alleged to be responsible as well for for his disappearance. And so, so, you know, kind of through luck, my informant was able to track down this, this alleged terrorist. And we brought him in and we questioned him. And at the end, you know, he didn't admit anything. And then at the end of the interview, you know, we detained him. We put him in a helicopter and sent him off to a detention facility. And it went on and years later, you know, I found out an agency colleague had had questioned him at a different detention facility. He was still in the system and he still

hadn't confessed to anything. And, you know, we weren't really sure we had the right guy. And I don't, I have no idea what happened to him. And I don't know. he was the right guy or not. And it was, like, it, it really kind of stuck with me and it haunted me. And so I think in a lot of ways, like my book was kind of, you know, in my book, this guy makes these decisions that affect the course of the Arab Spring that he doesn't necessarily anticipate. And I think in a way it was just me kind of processing my own experiences.

So when did the idea that this book first come to mind like, hey, I'm going to do this? Probably when I got back from Bahrain. And like I said, I had written some nonfiction pieces over the years. Like I had written about my experiences in Baghdad. But at the time, they were too personal. I felt like I don't want to, you know, I felt like I needed to write something. but I didn't necessarily want to publish my story because it was just so personal.

So I think, in my mind, I thought, I need to write something. I think it was like percolating in my mind. But I didn't quite know what story I was going to tell until I went to Bahrain, got back and thought, you know, I'm going to tell my stories of espionage, but I'm going to do it through the prism of Bahrain because I felt like it was such an interesting murky conflict.

where I could kind of portray that ambiguity, you know, and the difficult moral dilemmas. Yeah, I mean, so the book I think we were talking a little bit about before we did the show. I mean, I saw that you had written this book. I went and got it and read it, and I really loved it. I was kind of blown away by it, actually, and also not knowing what to expect. But, I mean, I was expecting my assumption was that I was going to read a book about kind a young female CIA case officer in Baghdad chasing after Al Qaeda or something like that. But what I read was a novel about sort of a middle-aged career case officer at the twilight of a

mediocre career. It had a very noir vibe that from the beginning of the book, you know something really bad is going to happen, but you're not sure what it is. And that's kind of you're reading to the end of the to find out what's going to happen. And the protagonist is not necessarily. a good guy either. No, no. Oh my gosh, and you won't believe how much shit I get for that. Yeah, I mean, no, he's not necessarily a likable guy. I mean, you know, he kind of represents the business and espionage. And, you know, it's, people are like that. I mean, I think that I wanted someone really realistic. I felt like, for God's sake, like the world has enough of the,

you know, of the spies that jump from roofs and wear tuxedos and drink martinis and are polished and, you know, awesome and can do anything. I mean, there's plenty, that's great, but there are plenty of those out there. And I just wanted, you know, I wanted someone real and gritty. And, and to me, I mean, yeah, and also some of it was a little bit inspired by the Quiet American, by Graham Green, you know, like Thomas Fowler is the seasoned British journalist who's kind of, you know, vying for the woman against the young, naive American station chief. So that was sort of in my mind as well. But, but I, yeah, I mean, I just wanted a really interesting damaged character, someone who had

been worn down by years of manipulating people and years of operating in this sort of murky, oral universe, because that's, that's, I feel like that's what espionage is. That's, that's what it produces. Um, and as a side note, I, you know, I don't, um, I don't think he's all that unlikable, which I don't know, maybe that people are going to be bothered when I say that, but I, I don't know, I, maybe because I wrote the character, I felt like there were, there were things I was rooting for him. Like, I, I felt like there were things about him I liked, you know, I thought he had redeeming qualities. Well, the, the, I think the thing that makes who want to root for him is that he's trying to fuck the bureaucracy back after all those years, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, but, you know, but that's a real person, right? A real person, like, if you think of a family member, you would never necessarily say that anybody that we really love is perfect, but that, you know, that they have redeeming qualities and we see them for those. They're still human, right? We all have our flaws and everything. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I right, exactly. I think flawed characters are more realistic and more interesting, and I feel like in the end they're almost more likable, because who wants to like some, you know, polished mythical person? I don't know. Right. That's me, but I think it's such an interesting topic.

I was thinking of like writing a piece on this because I have gotten so much shit for how unlikable Collins is. and and I just I want to be like I mean what do we look for in our fiction do we want like a best friend in our fiction is that what we're looking for I don't know that's not what I look for in fiction but I guess some people do yeah yeah they're looking for somebody to live through vicariously somebody they might want to go out on a date with you know yeah and that's not necessarily this guy um this so this time and you know maybe this time that you're in Bahrain and, you know, you had left the agency. And we didn't really talk about it too much. Did you have any regrets when you left the agency? Did you have any, like, you know, obviously you could have like changed, you know, gone from a case officer to another, you know, another field. But you kind of, you cut ties.

Yeah. No, I don't think I have any regrets. I mean, there are times when I miss being in the field, you know, like kind of just the feeling of. kind of being alive and being immersed in it, you know. And so there's that, but no, I don't miss working for the agency. I feel like it was a little bit of a debilipit. For me, it was a little bit of a debilitating organization. Like it kind of war began.

And I was always, as you said, fighting the bureaucracy or fighting something, fighting sexism. But you know, it was, I didn't feel like. So, so I mean, I think I, I talked about how much I liked working for DOD. And when I went to the agency, I thought it would be a similar culture. Yeah. It wasn't as much as I had hoped.

You know, I felt like at DOD, there's like a camaraderie and sense of mission that I had really sort of yearn for. And I didn't really see that at the agency. It was much more competitive and cutthroat. It was a civilian. It was a civilian organization and with all that comes with that. So it was not, I didn't love it. It wasn't a great fit for me. I didn't love manipulating people.

I actually hated that part of it. That was not, none of it was a good fit for me. And I don't think it would have been good with a family. You know, it would have been hard on my family and my son. So, no, I don't regret. And I also don't regret. I don't miss the paranoia and the insularity of that place. Yeah.

I mean, like you're always, oh, my God. like you're the looming polygraph and you know you accidentally carried a pen out of the out of the building and holy shit you're going to have to like confess on your next poly and you know i mean it's like this constant feeling like they're watching you and you can't fuck up or anything yeah there's a there's a giving about away too much of the plot there's an aspect of your book where you know the protagonist wants to date this woman and put this scenario plays out that I don't think is necessarily uncommon in in at the CIA is she's a foreign national he's an American CIA officer they do a background check on her like nope not her you can't so they they can actually tell you like

no you're not allowed to have what's the term they use of persistent persistent contact uh close and continuing contact yes a hundred percent and in fact I mean it's much worse than my book portrayed it. I mean, I had a friend who was denied the right to, she was going to marry an American, no, British, I won't get into the details. She was going to marry an allied journalist, a journalist from an allied country. And even that, they wouldn't let her do. She ended up having to resign just because at the time there was so much paranoia about journalists. And, yeah, I'm trying to think because he ultimately became a U.S. citizen. He might have even been a U.S. citizen at the time. But it was just, no, I guess he couldn't have been. But it was so paranoid. Like there were no other issues other than that he was a journalist.

And, yeah. I mean, it's actually kind of wild that they can deny based on something like that. I mean, you're saying that's a national security threat. Like this guy is like on the same on par with a Ruski spy. You know? Right. Right. Well, that's, and that's the weird, like, paranoid kind of distortion you get.

I think after years at the agency, it's like everyone could be an enemy. Right. I mean, I remember, like, I had a friend who I had met studying abroad who was Israeli, and we really weren't close in continuing friends. But just to be safe, I was like, I was like, well, I'll just report her just to get her approved and everything. And I mentioned in my, you know, form, I was like, all right, I mentioned to our CI guy, or, you know, oh, well, she contacted, or I said something like, you know, she's, she was living in England at the time. I was like, do I still have to report her? And he's like, I said she's living in England.

He's like, well, that's what you think. She could be from next door. And I'm like, okay, you know, whatever. Yeah. Or is she? I know, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, some of these, like, actual experiences and anecdotes obviously made it into the novel. I mean, do you want to tell us a little bit more about, like, how the writing process took place and how the plot evolved and sort of like, you know, a thumbnail sketch of like what the book is about?

Yeah. So, I mean, I knew I wanted to make it about this kind of aging spy, as you said, at the end of his career, caught in the crosswinds of the Arab Spring where he really doesn't know. what the right side is. And he gets, you know, involved with this woman and a murder and the revolution. And ultimately, he's forced to choose a side, which I also kind of took from the quiet American, you know, kind of Vietnam, like, what side do you choose? They're all bad, you know. And so it's kind of a similar situation. It's like he's forced to choose a side. Is it the right one? What are the consequences going to be? And as you know, the consequences are not really what he expected. So I kind of I knew that that was what I wanted to write. I didn't know the details, all the plot twists. Those kind of just came out as I was writing. But I parked myself at a Starbucks.

I would drop my son off at school in the morning and then I would go to the closest Starbucks and I would sit down and I would just write all day. And because of the agency's publication review requirements. I'm really fastidious about complying with the agency's rules. Not all authors are, but I'm really quite good about it. So you're not supposed to show it to anyone until you've had it approved, which means you can't show it to an editor, you can't show it to an agent. I couldn't show it to my husband who, you know, he has now a clearance and I don't, but somehow I can't show my my work to him, you know, so, so that's fine. So I did it for like, it took like five years. I just sat there, like three years writing, two years editing. And the whole time I'm thinking,

like, this could be the biggest piece of shit ever. And I've just wasted five fucking years of my life, like writing this, you know. If they shut it down. Yeah. Well, I know, or that or, or just if I couldn't get it published. Like, I don't like this could be the worst book ever written. You know, I didn't know. Like, no one had read it. Like, I had nobody to say, you know, I had nobody to say, oh, yeah, that's pretty good or no, that's shit or whatever, you know. Like, I was just like, I'm going to write this book and it might be terrible and who knows and nobody's read it. And so, yeah, so I did that and I'm like, I'll send it off to the PRB. And they and they were actually wonderful. They were, they, they, they, they, they gave it back after a couple months with just minimal redactions.

I mean, really just a few words, which was not my necessarily my experience. in the past, especially when I'd written nonfiction pieces. They were much tougher, and I really had to had to push back to get a lot of it cleared. But yeah, they were great, and then I sent it off. I had no idea what I was doing. I was flying blind. I had never gone through the process. I had no connections. I had no formal writing, education. I had no idea what I was doing. I mean, Jack, you've written books? Like, what was your experience like? Not that. I just self-published them and put them out into the world. I mean, we were at Jenkins. Put them out there. I mean, one of the, you know, autobiographical book was, was through a publisher. But the rest of

them, I just winged it. Yeah. But I mean, you're kind of a real success story. Then I mean, I just love the idea. I mean, you really are the person dropping the kid off at school and writing the book at Starbucks. That's pretty awesome. and then getting it through the review board. And so then once you did all of that, you were able to start shopping it around and try to find agents and editors and such. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Once they gave the approval, then, yeah, I mean, I barely showed it to anyone.

I just, I was like my husband, I mean, after it was approved, like my husband, my dad and like Ian Paldwell, who, you know, has the blurb on my book, Ian Faldwell. who, yeah, he was the only other, like, just the three of them, I sent it to. And then I just, yeah, I didn't realize at the time how, how, like, audacious that was and how crazy it was to just send it out there. And cold, I, like, like, cold pitch these agents, just like I was, you know, back in my spy days. I was like, what do you think of me? You know, like, let's make a deal. And I had no idea how ridiculous that was. And, and I kind of, like, used my spy skill because I would research agents.

And I'd because I would look at like who they represented what authors and be like oh, I think he would like my book. You know, I kind of tried to use my my spy skills. And yeah, so I sent it out and you know, I was really lucky. Like I got I got multiple offers from from different agents. So and and it just went from there. And once you had gone through that because you had already put it through the PRB, then you then you then you, you you know, obviously since you're a former intelligence officer, you're talking to these agents, are they happy that you've already, like, put it through the PRB and they don't have to deal with that process? I mean, yes, if they even know about it.

Most of them don't even know about it. I mean, it's not, there aren't a ton of us. And, yeah, I mean, they had no idea. It would be so easy, I think, for someone to just, I mean, a lot of it's just kind of the honor system, you know, I could say, oh, yeah, it's been approved or whatever, you know. Yeah, they didn't even know. But when they did, they were very happy that it was like a hurdle that I had already jumped.

And I think they were also surprised because those authors that do have to go through the process like me, I think it's rare that someone, I mean, I think it's a little rare that someone's as kind of, I'm kind of neurotic about it. Like most, I don't know that most authors I think, you know, oh, they have a co-author or they show it to an editor and I don't, it's probably not a big deal. But I was like, no, I'm going by the book. Yeah. And then does the paper be required that you put something in the front of your book or something like that? So, you know, they used to. And that says, you know, the CIA doesn't endorse it or whatever, but we've approved it.

And they no longer do because I had added that because they had required it for previous pieces. And then they were like, no, we're no longer doing that. So take it out. But I think they might still require it for nonfiction. Right. I mean, it makes sense to not require it for fiction because basically at that point, you're saying that this person, we're not admitting that they had anything to do with CIA, but we've looked at their book and it's okay. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The PRB is kind of an interesting beast just from people I've talked to over the years. I mean, some people breeze right through it, no problem. Yeah. I remember I talked to one guy who wrote about his experiences. I'm not going to give any identifying information. I'm just going to say he wrote about his experiences for a book. And the PRB said, no. And he's like, what do you mean? No, like, you can't publish a word of this, not even the title. Right. Right. Yeah. No, I know. I mean, it's so arbitrary. And everyone, and the pendulum kind of shifts, you know, like sometimes the PRB is being in, sometimes they're not. I mean, when I first was,

was submitting my work about Baghdad. I mean, they would redact the shit out of that. Like, they redacted my height and weight in the very first draft I sent them. And I'm like, check out my driver's license. Right, right. Like, tell the DMV that it's classified. Like, come on. Right.

I mean, they redact ridiculous things. Like, the sky was, was flat. Yeah. Yeah. I remember this guy telling me he's like, he wrote about, like, meeting a source in a field that had rocks in it. and they were like, you can't publish rocks. Right.

Because you might be able to identify where, it's like there's rocks all over the world. You can't tell me. Right. Yeah. Like, right. Like, oh, that don't give it away. I know.

And so it was totally arbitrary. But, but, and what's weird too is like, so when they redacted, you know, the crap out of it the first time, you know, I fought back and I put footnotes for every single thing. I was like, this is in open sources. This is on my driver's license. You guys are idiots. You know, whatever for like, for,

It was a voluminous work. There was for every page. And to be fair, they lifted a lot of the redactions. I mean, probably two-thirds of the redactions. It took years to do it. Now, did you, did you, the, this is after you worked for the law firm, correct? Yeah, I had just, yes, I had just started. Did you hire that law firm or Mark Way or somebody like that to help you?

That's the law firm I work for. Oh, really? I work for. Yeah. That's funny because, yeah. But did you, did you, you know, did you hire a council to help you with that? I didn't. I mean, because I was the, right, right.

I was the law firm, basically. Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, a lot of people do. And, but, and I think the fact that I worked for that firm helped, you know, it helped me understand the issues. And I think they knew that there was a possibility that potentially we could sue them if they were too heavy-handed. But I didn't feel the need to take those steps. I mean, that's pretty drastic and it takes a long time and it can be expensive. But no, I mean, at the end of the day,

I just wrote, I just was very methodical in saying, this is really not appropriate to redact. And eventually they, they listen to reason. And that was, I mean, that was like 20 years ago, we're talking, or maybe not that, no, not that long. But, but almost. Well, no, not quite that long. But since then, I think they've become much more lenient. Yeah. And it's become much better. Do you think that is a result of like a PR effort on their part?

Or do you think it's because so many high-level people have come out and talked about their experiences and written books where they can't really, like they can't tell an S-I-S, no, you can't say this? Or they've just been sued so many times. Yes. All of the above. Yeah. Yeah, we'll be above. I mean, of all of those things, I think maybe the most is, is the senior people like publishing because, I mean,

there are so many senior people. I mean, it's like you get to a certain point in the agency and it's like, you got to write a memoir and go on 60 minutes. And, and yeah, I mean, it's like, it's funny because it's like they all tow the party line until they don't like what the party line says. Right. Right. Yeah.

Right. And then there is also a special, special hell reserve for certain people who write novels who work for both the CIA and DOD. And they have to have it cleared by both. But that's someone else's story to tell. Yeah, because both want to claim. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how, like, that's almost like Kafkaesque in that.

It's like, what do you do when you get different redactions, right? It's like, well, well, it's supposed to be, I mean, which is classified, which is it? And the two agencies will fight over who has supremacy over like the first pass and stuff like that. It's a way to it's another way they can shut it down essentially. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, do you remember I'm drawing a blank on his name?

There was a that happened with a guy. Anthony or Tony. I can't remember his name. But it happened. He had had it cleared by DOD. And then and I think he or maybe I forget, never mind. It happened. Something similar happened. And it was so murky and it wasn't clear if he'd followed the rules or not. And I think the, I think the government ended up buying all the copies because they didn't want it out in the world. And it became like a bestseller because they bought it. That's amazing.

Well, there was another guy who was a knock that wrote a book that I don't think went through review and they ended up yanking it off the market. Yes, it was. It was. Ishmael Jones. exactly yeah yes that was the one yep that wasn't the one i was talking it but that's another good example yeah um so you the the the redactions for for the peacock and the sparrow were pretty light you said um you get that through um and since publishing the book i mean you talked a little bit about it but what is that what has the reception been to the novel so far either from from general public or from former colleagues?

I think the best reception I've gotten has been from people inside the Intel community. I mean, they really, I think it really resonates with them. I mean, I've been so pleasantly surprised because it's not the most favorable. It doesn't portray the intel community the most favorable life, but I've gotten great feedback that it just really resonates with them and living overseas as well. And I think people either love my book or hate it, to be honest. I think, I mean, there are people, I think, who totally get it, like you. And then I think there are people who really are looking for a different kind of spy novel,

like a spy novel that they can live vicariously, you know, sexy, and they're jumping off roofs and stuff like that. And that there are gunfights and car chases on every page. age. And I think a lot of people yearn for that or kind of a cozy spy novel type. So, you know, I'm not going to please those people. Right, right. I mean, the book, it's deliberately trying to make people uncomfortable in certain junctures, right? And introduce the sort of that ambiguity, right? Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like challenging the reader. Like, what would you do in this situation? Right. Right.

you know, how would you feel in this world? Yeah, and I mean, that's probably some of the negative reaction you got to it, is exactly that, that it makes people uncomfortable. I mean, I have to say that the thing that confounds me the most is like some of the, some of the reviews I get from readers, like they conflate me and my character. And, I mean, they actually, like, will call me names. Like, well, you're, the author must be sexist, you know, you know, because. and it's like, come on.

Like, you can't. You're writing from a perspective. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What kind of world do we live in where I have to write, you know, Polyanna characters because otherwise I'm, I'm going to be vilified. I mean, kind of Orwellian.

Yeah. Well, yes. As we know from Amazon reviews and YouTube comments alike, they're not. Oh, really? Sometimes a little off the left field. Yeah. but that's that i mean that's that's that's that's just part of being a writer though too i mean is it's it's it's it's it's nice i mean this was some advice i got early on actually someone told me it's nice

when readers are nice to you but they're not obligated to be and you do you have to accept that too you know that's that's just part of part of the part of the job totally 100% yeah i have thick skin so whatever you know no well i'm i'm glad that you wrote the book you wanted to write um And, I mean, it's terrific. I really hope people will check it out. So is there a, I mean, do you, how do you see yourself as a writer as a novelist? I mean, are you going to continue writing? Is there another work in progress?

Yeah. So I do feel like spy novels are a good lane for me and maybe like the darker variety of spy novels. And, yeah, I've been toying with the idea of, um, writing for my next novel, kind of a fictionalized account of my time in Baghdad and focusing on that that operation that I described earlier where I, you know, we helped apprehend this guy and then found out he might not be guilty and sort of all that that entailed. That's, no, that's, that's cool.

And I look forward to reading something like that. Do you see, do you see Shane Collins making a, you know, do you see like a series? based off of him? I don't think so. I mean, I kind of envisioned it as a standalone just because it's kind of this guy making a last attempt to make, you know, it's a last attempt to make something of his life.

And, you know, I don't want to give it away, but it ends how it ends. And I don't really see something following that. I haven't read it. So if he dies at the end, that was a stupid question. there's always the prequels. Someone else said that. It doesn't mean he died.

Yeah. I know I would be interested to see a novel, you know, a, a lot of novel set in Iraq. I have kind of come to this sort of like had this jarring, somewhat jarring experience that I go to these events sometimes, like veterans events and intelligence community events even. And everyone loves to talk about the six months, the first six months. the first six months in Afghanistan and everything else, the entire rest of the war is not spoken of. And you never, ever hear them mention the word Iraq. And it's a very, it's a very jarring experience to kind of hear that.

And I think the, you know, the first CIA paramilitary teams and the special forces ODAs that went in Afghanistan, I mean, they deserve to be celebrated for what they did. Don't get me wrong. But it's a little jarring that there's a 19 and a half. years of war that are just sort of swept under the carpet. Yeah. Yeah, that's so interesting. I didn't know that. I mean, this is anecdotal. I'm not saying they're all like that by any means. It's just a personal observation. So, no, that's good. So do you, what do you think of the idea? You like the idea? Yeah, I love the idea. And I mean, I think that there needs to be a bit more exploration of that.

And I mean, this is sort of the role that novels can have sometimes in providing the sort of like intellectual exploration of that type of terrain. And maybe, you know, obviously in this case or in many cases with the people we talk to, it's the author is sort of like processing their own experiences. But I mean, you're not the only person out there that had some of those experiences. And that it's like I'd be the first to admit, you know, I'm still trying to figure it out. You know, what, like the question, of course, for I think everyone who served over there is, what does it mean? I know. Like, what did that mean? And it doesn't necessarily mean that the answer is all negative or all bad, but it's definitely a question that I think a lot of people ask themselves.

Right. Right. I mean, and I feel like it's such an experience that stays with you for, I mean. How could it not? Yeah. I mean, do you guys feel like it still stays? stayed with you? Yeah, in a lot of ways.

I mean, I don't have the same sort of existential. Obviously, it's very frustrating and it's very frustrating. Like Iraq was very frustrating just the way Bremer, like going into it, you know, like disbanding a 400,000 person army. You're like, well, that's dumb. Like, why would anybody in the right mind ever think and the debathification and all of that? And then obviously, you know, in Afghanistan and even Iraq. are dealing with solder. Like, he's our enemy, he's our friend.

He's our enemy. He's our friend. You know, things like that. Like, you know, Iran is the primary enemy here. Oh, there are no Iranians in Iraq. Like, leave it alone. Like, that whole thing was all very frustrating. And then Afghanistan, obviously, the policies back and forth.

You know, and not just between the different presence, even under the same president. You know, there would be different engagement policies and different, you know, things like that. but I was forced enough to have been working with Indich the whole time. So for me, as, for me, we, we were there with somebody else's dreams, you know, and what's frustrating for me is, is how that it all ended and that those dreams weren't realized, but not the actual moment to moment. Like, we're side by side, but with these, these men with families who are trying to save their country, from something worse.

So, so, so I, so that kind of existential, you know, angst isn't there. Just the, yeah,

we fucked up and did what America has been doing since Vietnam. And, and, you know, let people high and dry. You know,

and we never had a plan. Like, you can't win, it's like a football game. Like, like, you, like,

you don't know, if there are no goal post, if you don't know how, what a score is, if you don't know, like, what the end tally is and how long it's going to last.

Like there's no metric for winning. You have to have goals. And we never had goals or an idea of what winning looked like in either one of those wars. 100%. So, you're right. Yeah. Well said. So it's fertile terrain to explore.

Yeah. Yeah. I just have to get writing. Well, we look forward to it. There's a lot to chew on there. Yeah. Yeah, we look forward to it. And we definitely...

Do we have questions? We do have some questions. Let's see here. And as far as people were interested to read the book, I don't have a physical copy because I read mine on the Kindle. Check it out there. You can get it in Hardback. And again, if you guys like e-books, I mean, I read it on my Kindle. It was awesome.

And there'll be a link right down in the description for people who want to go pick it up. Joe's got you. Thank you very much for the donation. Did your work in Iraq ever turn up any Iranian-Kuds force-related groups or activities? No worries if we can't get into this. I get it. So let me think about what they approve that I can say. Yeah, so, I mean, basically, no.

The answer is no. For some Iran, well, the answer is no. I'll just say that. Yeah. For no clear reason. Yeah. I mean, we're very aware because it's been talked about in the news, you know, within the last few years, not goods force, but she a malicious, which, you know, get their money and weapons from somewhere. Who knows where. The PMU is being directly run and facilitated by Soleimani and IRC. Yeah. There's no, yeah. There's no hide in that one.

And I think it, I think it's been well covered that, you know, the, the EFPs, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the. the improvised or the iEDs that were very good at piercing armor um you know came directly from iran absolutely yeah yeah no i you're right and that's all been in open press yeah yeah yeah yeah that some of that made its way to the shia in uh in bahrain and during the arab spring and and that was actually taken yeah just from research like real world yeah yeah um Gene Kali, thank you very much. Both Iran and Saudi Arabia have backed terrorism that has resulted in the deaths of American civilians and military personnel. Why does the U.S. government continue to side with Saudi in their conflict with Iran?

What was the first part? I didn't hear the first part. Both Iran and Saudi Arabia have backed terrorism that has resulted in the deaths of American civilians and military personnel. Yeah, I mean, I think that's sort of the essence of my book is like, you know, they're both bad sides. Who do you pick? You know, you pick the lesser two evils. I think that's, and it's a constant dance.

I mean, I think Saudi is a horribly repressive regime. And I think they have horrible human rights violations. And they produce, you know, people like Osama bin Laden. So it's like, is that a country we want to ally ourselves with and support, you know? And then on the other hand, you have Iran. And that's, that's really the essence of my book. So I don't have a good answer other than Iran is the worst of the two evils. Well, and I think the real answer here is, Kali, like, buy the book.

Everybody who wants to know the answer to that question, buy the book. Saracha, thank you very much for the donation. I think Saratja's question fell off. Are you drinking sherry casks tonight? It's Balvany single barrel tonight. Yeah, I don't think it's a sherry cast, but it does have a It's single barrel, I believe. It's cast number 363, but it's not a, yeah, but it's not, yeah, I'm not sherry cast.

Let's see here. Danny, thank you very much. Who's your favorite Jack Ryan, John Krasinski or Harrison Ford? Are they asking me that? Oh, yeah, that's for you. Oh, you know, I hate to confess this, but I don't really watch those kind of movies. is that terrible? No, I haven't seen any of the Khrzynski.

No, I haven't either. I have to say Harrison Ford because he's the one I've seen. I had a friend to ask me the same sort of thing just today. Like, you know, what, like, espionage TV show would you recommend? I'm like, I don't watch it. I don't watch it. If somebody's not casting a spell or shooting a laser, I'm not interested in espionage. Yeah, I'd much rather watch science fiction.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then, let's see here. Cat Chaser, thank you very much for the sticker. Let me see here. Behind the scenes. Oh, it's the behind the scenes. You're getting the real scoop here, people.

Yeah. You're getting the real deal. Unfettered access. And that, oh, I think we have a question or two on Patreon, right? You have them, D? No. Okay, I'll get them up. Bear with us.

Yes. You're from. Thank you, Alana. Oh, yeah. And if you guys are interested in supporting the show and getting all of these episodes ad-free, there's also a link down in the description to our Patreon. We really appreciate all you guys who support us and support the stream and keep this thing going. 225 episodes strong.

We're still here. Thank you, everyone. Okay. From Isaac. Dear Miss Barry, from your time spent during the Arab Spring, are you seeing any similarities that lead to that episode happening in America because the fringe is going around, judging for the last few years, back to January 6th to Florida, Trump's indictment?

What do you think might happen next? In terms of, is there going to be like a revolution, like an armed? It sounds like he's asking about domestic unrest. Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to think how to answer the question. I don't think we're going to have I mean, I think the Arab Spring was to try to implement democracy. And I think, you know, January 6th was trying to tear down a democracy in my view. So I don't see that being a similar in that way.

I don't see it being similar in that way. I do think it's it's unnerving that there's been so much unrest in our country in the last couple years in a way that I never thought I would see in a America. I mean, you know, having been to these other countries like Iraq or Bahrain where you think, oh, yeah, wars and unrest only happen abroad. And, well, clearly, that's not true. Clearly, it happens in our country. So, um, Duncan, Idaho, love the book with an exclamation point. Oh, cool. Thank you. Um, like prior Tim house guest, J.R. Seeger, you have a good point of view, character who is opposite gender from the author. Can you talk about this a bit and how you approached it? Interesting.

Yeah. Yeah, a lot of people ask me that. You know, I don't know. I really just kind of develop like the whole backstory of Shane Collins. I mean, Jack, as you know, like he was kind of physically abused as a kid and his parents were alcoholic. So I kind of created this whole backstory of who this guy was. And I drew on a lot of people that I had worked with. And, um, and, um, and, um, or known. And I kind of, it's just a kind of a composite of all those things. And I really, like, when I would sit down to write, I would just, I would just get into, like, I'm Collins, you know, it was like a different world. And I would just tune everything out. And I think that's partly why I like the guy, because I feel like I kind of stepped into his shoes. I can empathize. I don't know. To me, that's like the great part of writing is that you, you can empathize. with people that aren't like you. It kind of, you know, it reminds me of that old. I don't know. It was going around writing groups for a while about the bad, you know, the bad, a woman writing about a man, the way a man writes about a woman, you know, for bad authors. It was like his pert testicles, you know.

But the idea is that you're not, like, you're just writing as a human being, right? you're not trying to think, yeah. And he lets out a fart and, you know, scratches his, yeah. Yeah. I mean, did you guys think I wrote convincingly as a dude? Yeah, yeah, no, I think it was very convincing, it was very real, it was very visceral, you know. If you, if, I mean, your, your pen name is kind of unisex, too. I mean, if you didn't know that it's Alana Berry, then you probably wouldn't figure that a woman or, I mean, you wouldn't know if a man or a woman.

had write it, I mean, I wouldn't have jumped to that conclusion. Yeah. And every now and then, like, I get a, I got a review that was like, oh, he did this and he meeting me, you know, like they don't, they didn't. Oh, right, right. They don't realize. Yeah. Right.

They don't realize. I'm female. And that happened also with, um, a bookstore who wanted to, yeah, they, I mean, they, they, is your husband coming? Like, when does he arrive? Yeah. Um, Bill Gage. Bill. We love you, man. Bill Gage's former guest. I keep asking if Jack's going to bring back the

black turtleneck he used to wear on early episodes of Mac Bowlin style. What does Alana think of author Bernard Lewis in his book, What Went Wrong? I know the book isn't widely appreciated by Arab scholars viewed as an anti-Arab by some. Keep it up. Good work. Love the show. I have to confess, I read part of it years ago, and I don't think I finished it, and I don't remember it, So I can't answer that. Okay. JJ, thank you. Can you please ask about the work-life balance of the CIA?

Does she routinely work more than 40-hour weeks? Yeah, I mean, really my experience, I mean, headquarters was fine. You worked, the hours were fine at headquarters. But like in Baghdad and I think probably other places overseas, I mean, Baghdad was insane. I mean, you guys know it was, we worked seven days a week, I don't know, 15, 18-hour days. I mean, it was ridiculous. And, I mean, that's the fastest way to burn someone out and make them completely ineffective. Yeah.

I mean, it was just. And it's not like there's, you know, there's not like there's a whole lot else to do there either. No, there's nothing else to do. Yeah. So for the Babylon Bar sounds like the Star Wars Cantina. Yes. Yes. That was it.

That was what I mean, that was the, that was all there was to do was the Babylon Bar. But you didn't even really like, you couldn't even really take a day in your pod, you know, just because it was sort of taboo, you know, you just were always supposed to be working. But it wore on you. So no, I mean, it's it's it's very hard, I think, to balance, you know, family and work. And, you know, when I was there, they tell you right at the orientation, it's like an 80% divorce rate in the directorate of operations. So. It's tough on families. So where are you at today? What else is going on? I mean, aside from, you know, novel number two percolating in your mind, is there anything else going on that people should know about? No, not really. I mean, it's just, that's it.

I'm working on book number two and not really making much progress at the moment. But no, I have a. a 13-year-old son, and he's my life, and the book comes second, and, you know, that's about it. Awesome. Is there anything else that you want to plug or get out there as we wrap up tonight? No, by my book. Check out the book, folks. Again, the links down in the description.

I really hope you guys will check it out. I really enjoyed it. And hey, look, on the upside, when you get book number two out, we will have you back on the show. There's a little bit of, I hope that the team house bump, I hope that's a little bit of added motivation. Yeah, and if there's anything we need to help you, like, let us know we're happy to. Yeah. You guys are so awesome. Honestly, I'm like, I'm really honored to be on your show. I mean, this was just a highlight for me. Oh, I'm so happy to hear that. And, you know, we've, you know, I think when we had Doug Wise on the show, he said,

He said something about how, you know, this is, this is sort of a nonpartisan platform for people to talk about, you know, their military service or their time in the intelligence community. And there aren't very many of those out there was something he said. And that kind of like stuck with me that. It's like, that's a really good thing. I appreciate the compliment. And we'll try to keep that going. Yeah. Definitely.

I know him. He's a good guy. Yeah. Yeah. Doug's great, man. We had him on a couple times. And we'll probably have to do it again. one day. Yeah. He was, so he was COS of Baghdad like right after you left. It must have been after I left.

Yeah. Yeah. Is there is there a community? Because we've had on, you know, like a bill had mentioned J.R. Seeger. Like we've had on a number of people who have gone from the intelligence community to writing fiction and not, you know, not always spy fiction. Like J.R. Seeger's books were kind of steampunk. He's written spy fiction too, though. Okay. And so is Jim Waller. Yeah. I know him. You know, Jim? Yeah.

Yeah. You've had him on. And we're going to have David McCloskey will be on in a couple months. Oh, yeah, yeah. And so is there like a community? Do you guys have a community of former intelligence officers who have branched into the fiction world? So what's weird is that when I left the agency, it was like a clean break. Right.

You kind of realize when you're out, like when you're out, you're out. you know, like people, a lot of people, you're no longer an insider, you know, and, and understandably, you know, they don't have this clearances and everything. So, I mean, for like years, I didn't really talk to anybody except maybe a couple people. And then when I published this book, like that whole community kind of came out of the woodwork of like retired case officers, like Jim Lawler, mad dog, you know, and just a bunch of them. And they've been, and they've been so great and just so. supportive and um and so many of them i was like why weren't you my manager at you know when i was at the agency right but yeah i mean i i've i've connected now with more more people from the agency than i have since i was there i mean just with my book you know that's fantastic someone i have to start harassing in emails is uh is tom king who uh was an agency analyst and he's a comic book writer now well you meant you mentioned him yeah yeah i i'd love to get him on here. And you would be very interested to read. Him and the artist, his artist,

Mitch Girauds, they did a graphic novel called Sheriff of Babylon. And it's about a guy who's a contractor in Baghdad during the war. Very, very good. They did an awesome job with that. But I will, I'll have to ask those two guys and try to get them on here one day. That would be cool. And next time we have you on, we can talk about your affiliation with the, with the UFO, the secret UFO. Yeah, the secret UFO unit. I'm just kidding. It's, yeah, it's all the rage right now to have on intelligence people who talk about UFOs.

Well, I saw someone on Twitter was like something about UFO, but I didn't get it. Yeah, I, it's, uh, it's al-a-moat. Yeah, that's a whole, I'm not going to go there. It's too late in the night. I'm not going there. I'm not doing it. Sorry, guys. I'm not prepared.

You have to catch me when I'm fresh. But Alana, again, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for writing this book. And, yeah, look forward to having you on again when the next one comes out. I would love that. Thank you so much. Absolutely. And everyone watching out there, we'll be back on Tuesday with Gary Harrington.

He'll be here in studio. Gary served in special forces and then he served in the CIA himself. A lot of time in Afghanistan. So we're looking forward to having him here in studio. Last episode was awesome. So we will see you Tuesday. Elana, thank you again for spending some of your Friday evening with us. And we hope to talk to you again real soon.

Thank you. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Thanks, everybody. Bye. See you next time.