The Team House - From Special Forces to the 160th SOAR | Nick O'Kelly | Ep. 362

Episode Date: July 26, 2025

This episode features Nick O'Kelly, a former Green Beret and 160th SOAR pilot, discussing his diverse military career and personal struggles with mental health. He shares candid experiences from Special Forces selection, deployments, flight school, and his journey to finding effective treatment and breaking the stigma around mental well-being in the military.Subscribe to our new newsletter!!!!https://teamhousepodcast.kit.com/joinToday's Sponsors:GhostBed⬇️https://www.ghostbed.com/houseFOR 10% off! Mando ⬇️https://shopmando.comPromo code "TEAMHOUSE" for 40% off your starter pack.For ad free video and audio and access to live streams and Eyes On Geopolitics...JOIN OUR PATREON! https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouseTo help support the show and for all bonus content including:-live shows and asking guest questions -ad free audio and video-early access to shows-Access to ALL bonus segments with our guestsSubscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseNew merch, patches, and stickers! ⬇️https://theteamhouse-shop.fourthwall.comSupport the show here:⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse___________________________________________________Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured__________________________________Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/——————————————————————Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouseSocial Media: ⬇️The Team House Instagram:https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_linkThe Team House Twitter:https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePodJack’s Instagram:https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_linkJack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21Team House Discord: ⬇️https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6SubReddit: ⬇️https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample"Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio"00:00 - START3:07 - The 18X-Ray Special Forces Pipeline Experience13:10 - Stationed in Okinawa & Early Experiences with 1st SFG27:24 - Decision to Pursue Army Aviation (Flight School)30:09 - Flight School Challenges & Mental Health Struggles53:19 - Pursuing the 160th SOAR (Night Stalkers)1:00:09 - Green Platoon & Advanced 160th Training1:11:06 - Seeking Help for Anxiety & Misdiagnosis of Narcolepsy1:29:58 - Writing the Book "Stigma" and its MissionBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Special Operations. Covert Ops. Espionage. The Team House. With your hosts, Jack Murphy and David Park. Hey guys. Welcome to Episode 362 of the podcast. Ah, sorry, I just had to mute something.

Episode 362 of the Team House. I'm Jack here with Dave. And our guest on tonight's show is Nick O'Kelly. Nick served in special forces in first group in Okinawa, deployed to the Philippines, went to flight school, served in third combat aviation brigade, deployed to Afghanistan, went and assessed for 160th Special Operations Aviation. You were a Black Hawk guy, didn't direct deployment, and then got medically retired and now run a financial planning firm.

And you have a book called Stigma coming out October 21st. So that's the thumbnail sketch. That's our show. Thanks, guys. Yeah. Nailed it. No. Thanks for coming in.

Yeah. Yeah, I know. Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming up, too. It's always fun to have people in the studio. I agree. It's a lot better environment. It's a lot more fun.

Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, Nick, I mean, the question we typically ask our guests first is their origin story. If you want to tell us a little bit about kind of like your upbringing and how that took you towards the military. Yeah. So grew up in Western Washington, Seattle area-ish. pretty traditional family, right? Like nothing crazy.

I didn't have like a traumatic childhood or anything. Family is six. So four siblings living in the suburbs of Seattle. And then I did the traditional like went to college because I was the right thing to do route. But found myself drinking my way out of college very quickly after about a year. A year and a half. Yeah. So I like got the freedom out of high school and just went hard in college.

And like, it was one of those things where, like, I wouldn't go to class for a week. And then I'm like, eh, I don't think it's worth going now. I think I missed too much. So long story short, I dropped out of college after a year and a half. Went back home, worked for my dad for a year. He owned, like, a car magazine. And really, it was just partying and doing nothing with my life. So fortunately, in college, I did ROTC.

So I had, like, some exposure to the Army and kind of what it was. So that's what led me to be like, okay, I just. should probably do something. Let's look at the military. I initially went to the Marines and they told me basically we can't guarantee your job. Can't guarantee your MOS. So if you enlist, that's fine, but you don't know what you're going to do. So I was like, no, I don't want to do that. So went over to the Army recruiter and he showed me the SF recruiting video. And I was like, hell yeah. That's the most badass thing I've ever seen. So let's go. What do I need to do? And yeah, signed the dotted line 18xray and then shipped off for basic in July 2010.

So did you know anything about special forces or special operations at all prior to that? Not really. I mean, other than like the movies, you know, nothing like, I wasn't the kid that was like, I want to go do this, you know, I didn't have that. Like, I want to go be a Green Beret or go be a Navy Steel. No, I just was like, that sounds really cool. Sounds really hard. So let's try it.

I think that for like athletic guys, it's like they, you know, the Air Force shows the PJ or it's CCTV, the Navy shows the seals, the Army shows the Ranger SF. And they know that a lot of those guys are going to wash out. Yeah. Like they're going to go, you know, be the, you know, the deck cans, you know, the boats is mates or the, you know, the grunts or whatever else. Yeah. You know.

But yeah, that's great. So what did you, did you do any training prior to going to SFAS or prior to going to basic and everything? Yeah. So I was, because of ROTC, I knew kind of. kind of the standards, right, like the PT test and stuff. So I knew what I needed to work on. So I was already a pretty good runner. That obviously goes so far when you enlist. So I had the running background and that was the biggest thing that I think made me succeed

and do well throughout the whole entire pipeline was just the running background. But yeah, so training, but not like I didn't follow like a specific program. It was more just like, all right, let's go sweat my ass off every day. And yeah, getting good shape. Yeah, it's always interesting me, too, because, like, there's such a culture. And we've had, like, Doc Guru on, you know, T.F. Voodoo. Like, there's such a culture around, you know, kids, like, psyching themselves up for whatever selection is they're going to. And then other guys are just like, okay, I'll, I'm going to try this.

And they just do it, you know. And, you know, I think obviously fitness and shape and condition are a part of it. But there's also just like the intent of, I'm just going to do this. Yeah. And I also, I didn't mention, but during my childhood, like, my mom was, she was hard. Like, she was a drill sergeant at home, basically. I was the kid if I got like a B plus. It was like, what happened?

Would you do wrong? Not like, good job, you know? So I always had those high standards that were just ingrained with me. And I think that. like helped a lot throughout the whole thing. So 2010, you're coming into the military. Tell us a little bit about like the 18 x-ray experience. Oh yeah. All right. So it had, I will say like it had more from like the early 2000 days because I heard a horror stories from back then where it was just miserable, right? And I think by now by the time I was going through, there were enough cadre that

were 18 x-rays that they had a little more sympathy, right? Yeah. Yeah, it wasn't like, It wasn't like, what are we doing with this 18 x-ray program, right? They were like, okay, now I'm an 18 x-rays, so I kind of, you know, mutual respect a little bit. But I will say, like, x-rays have such a leg up compared to somebody just coming from the regular arm. As far as, like, selection, right? Because you go to SOPSY right before. So you have three weeks where you're basically working out twice a day, sleeping like 10 hours a day, and just eating protein and getting ready for selection. You know, they teach you land navs.

So you already have kind of a pre-selection course built in. And Big Army doesn't get that. Right. They go straight into S-MAS. Exactly. So we have, so we show up to selection kind of already, and you hear all the G2 through the pipeline, right? Through the guys that are ahead of you. So you already kind of have an idea of like what you need to do to be successful.

So I do think the X-ray program like is good in that regard. Now I will say like when you get later in the course like S-U-T and stuff like that, that's when being an X-ray sucks because later. leadership experience and stuff like that was not was not something that we had ever done before. Right. So I was just like, how am I supposed to tell this E6 Ranger, you know, what to do when I'm a E3? You know what I mean? With no combat, no experience or anything.

So it was good and bad, I guess. What was that like working with, you know, a bunch of salty characters from the big army that come in there? There was, there was hidden myths. Some of them were really cool. Like, some of them were really down to earth. And I also think it, like, depended on what type of x-ray you were, you know, because there were some x-rays that just kind of had it coming and didn't. You know, they were cocky when they shouldn't have been, you know.

So I do think that played a factor. I tried to stay humble throughout it. So I never got too much shit. Don't draw attention. Yeah. Yeah, I was kind of trying to be the gray man. So I didn't get too much shit from the hardened war vets, you know. Yeah, 2010.

So there were probably quite a few combat vets. For sure. Going through that, right? Yeah, for sure. Yep. And what MOS did you get assigned? Charlie. Okay.

So I was originally going to be at Bravo, and then there was another guy going to Oki, and fortunately he wanted Charlie, or excuse me, he wanted Bravo and I wanted Charlie. So we were able to do a hot swap in the QAug. So he already knew he was going to Oki? Or no. Good, good point. We had our languageers already, because language was first. That's what it was.

So we both had Asian languages. That's what it was. Okay. Good point. Yeah. Good point, because we didn't find out until. Yeah, until sage, after sage, actually. Yeah, yeah.

That's cool. What was the, like, what was the language? So they give you guys like the D-Lab or whatever it is. And then how long is the language course for, because it's a shorter course. So it was six months when I went through. Okay. Yeah, I did Korean. Okay.

Is the goal like 1-1? Yeah, gold's 1-1. One-1. Which, yeah, I feel like after six months, one-one's not hard to a team. Yeah, yeah. It's plenty of time to do. I disagree. Maybe it depends on the language, I don't know.

It might depend on the person, too. I was a hard head. So, Charlie, any fun stories you want to tell about going through the Charlie course or Robin Sage or anything before we move on? So I got two stories that I'll tell. Okay. One of them was me being a dumbass and almost getting kicked out of the Q course. So here I am this.

I think I was 22. Yeah, it was 22 at the time. So 22 years old, we're going through the Q course, crushing it, crushing it, you know, as well as you can. And we're going out on week nights, right? And just showing up at 5, 6 a.m. for PT. No worries, right? Everything's fine.

One night we go out and we were out to like 3 a.m. And I think we had to catch a 5 a.m. bus for the Charlie course. And my alarm goes off. Or no, not even my alarm. I get a, like my phone's just going crazy. And a buddy's calling me like, dude, where the hell are you? And I've literally just woke up. And I'm like, shit.

He's like, the bus is here. Like, you probably have like two minutes, dude. And so throw my stuff on real quick. Paul ass down to the bus. And I kid you not, like the bus doors were closing when I was running up to it. And I knocked on the door. And luckily the bus drivers are civilian. So it's not like Cadre here.

But I barely made it. And you know, like, I would have probably been. Like, I would have probably been kicked out of the course or at least recycled at a minimum. So, like, yeah, the just shoestring, you know, metric for that. Meeting the standard out there at the Q-course. You know, the worst thing I think they did for us was when we started having night classes in language school. Because you're in class from, like, one or two in the afternoon to like six or seven o'clock at night. And then you can go out drinking all.

You don't have to be in till one in the afternoon. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we were hitting it pretty hard. That's brutal. That's like the pilot life. That was not a good idea of them to do that. Yeah. Not a good idea at all.

Hence why I did not. A lot of self-selection. Yeah, why I maybe didn't do so good on the language proficiency test. Yeah, don't let a bunch of young 20-year-olds hard charge and sleep in every day. That's not a recipe for success. And what's the second story? Oh, yeah, second story. So this one was actually in Robin Sage.

So I met my wife at the Q-Corps. Really? We could, that's a funny story too. But met my wife at the Q course and I got engaged before Sage and we were literally getting married the day after I graduated the Q course. So in Sage, our G chief and the locals or whatever set up a scenario where we went and played poker with the locals. And there was this young chick there that her job was to seduce one of us, try to seduce one of us. And of course, I had to be the freaking. sacrificial lamb and you know she was going at me hard and i was just like what do i do like i'm

literally engaged in the real world you know and like but i it's you know it's sage so you're supposed to play the part and i'm just like how do i navigate this situation and i ended up kind of like lightly stiff arming you know enough to be like respectful but like you like guys help me out here like i need some help i need a curve i need somebody to step in and help out and um fortunately like i don't know if they just sense that I was like extremely uncomfortable with it or something but it did back off but man that could have been like that was one of those moral dilemmas she was like twirling her garter belt around like literally like leaning over my shoulder you know and like putting her stuff on me and I'm just like all right just got engaged you know this is not good time you went through a fun robin sage

lane yeah I mean that was one day so I mean are you sure that wasn't out on liberty yeah I know I've been to one of those bars. Yeah, might be getting some wires crossed here. The story about your wife, though, can we save that for a bonus segment for our Patreon viewers? Okay.

Yeah, okay, great. Our Patreon subscribers. Hey, if you're not subscribing to our Patreon, you should. Links down the description. It's going to be salacious. That's right. And so, by the grace of God,

graduate the Q course, get married the day after. Yep. And now you guys are bags and baggage going to Wiganawa, Japan. Yeah, and my wife was in ROTC at East Carolina University. So I was marrying up. She was, I was, yeah, got obviously at E5 when I graduated.

But she was commissioning like six months after I graduated. So it was one of those things that we were like, we got to get married before you're in the Army, you know, just to avoid that conflict and everything. But the other curveball was like, there was no position for her to go to Okinawa. She was a signal officer. So it's like, shit, are we going to be like separated by, you know, worlds right when we get married for a while?

Fortunately, and you know how the Army works. If you know somebody, it helps. So her dad was a full board colonel at West Point. And he was able to literally call HRC and get her orders like the next day. Like we tried all the avenues first, right? Yeah. And nothing just crickets. And then literally she's like, dad, I don't know what else to do.

Can you make a phone call? And next day she had orders. I was like, are you kidding me? But the crazy thing is like they had a slot for her out there. Right. She stepped in and was a platoon leader and it was actual like an MTO slot. Right. So it's like, why are you guys, you know, whatever, bureaucracy.

But, but yeah, it worked out. I mean, it's the military. Right. It's how the military works. It's just how it works. And how do you like Okinawa? I loved it. For the short period that I was there.

I mean, we were honestly like, I was probably TDI more than I was on island. But now it was really cool. I showed up to my team or my company at an interesting point, though, because they were in Afghanistan when I got there. So I was basically showed up with like six other x-rays, and we were rear-D. You remember Dave Fielding? Yeah.

Yeah. So me and Dave showed up the same time. Okay. So we were rear-D, and then the company lost the guy while we were literally, like, right when we got there. And so when they came back, man, we were just these x-rays, no experience. and I think the majority of us were x-rays, if not all of us. So no experience or anything, you know, very green.

And we were not treated well. Like, we were not accepted right away. It was very much like the, we got our click. You guys stay in your lane, shut up, you know, do what you're told, which is expected to some extent, right? But I feel like it was definitely like magnified by all that. Is this like the 2011-12? Yeah, so it would have been 2012.

Okay. Yep. Yeah. So, yeah, a guy in a company. I mean, they, yeah, they had a pretty brutal deployment. So we just had a lot of, I would say, imposter syndrome, you know, because we didn't know anything. You know, we thought we were cool. And then we got there and we got humbled real quick.

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so I need a deodorant that's going to do the job. And Mando has come through for me. You know, the body wash was great. I actually used all of that, need to reorder some more. The bar of soap is also very cool. It was very smooth, actually. So I hope you guys will go and check them out. They have a starter kit that's up there, and they have a special deal for Teamhouse viewers. So the starter pack is perfect for new customers. It comes with a solid stick deodorant, cream tube deodorant, two free products of your choice, like mini body wash and deodorant wipes and free shipping.

As a special offer for listeners, new customers get $5 off a starter pack with our exclusive. exclusive code. That equates to over 40% off your starter pack. Use code team house at shopmando.com. That's S-H-O-M-A-N-D-O.com. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Smell fresher, stay drier, and boost your confidence from head to toe with Mando. But after, I would say, two trips with the team, that's when it finally started to integrate and feel a little more. Where were those trips to? The first one was to Nepal and second was Philippines. So those were just J-sets, so those weren't like, yeah.

What's the J-SET for people who? Joint combined exercise training. So basically, okay. So it's basically where you're training with another country's military. They're training you, you're training them. It's not necessarily a combat deployment. Right, exactly. Yeah, it's more, there's like a P-O-I period of instruction.

The foreign internal defense stuff. Was your team, were they merman or Sky Kings or, you know, what kind of team was? So we were a mountain team. You were a mountain team. That transitioned to... Hence Nepal. That transition to a mobility team, which I don't know what that means. That just means...

You have trunks. You drive, yeah. But, you know, what was cool, though, was at Nepal, we got to do Everest Base Camp because we had a two-week, I think, period, white space on the front end of the trip. And we were like, yeah, let's good do it. And got per diem and everything, you know, it was high altitude training. That's awesome. You do what?

Can you, the base camp for, can you kind of explain that? Yeah. So, um, so every space camp, you fly out of, excuse me, Catmandu, which is like the big city in Nepal. Um, and then you fly to a town called Lucla, which is, if you look it up on YouTube, it's actually like the most dangerous airport in the world. It's insane landing there. It's like a super.

super short runway and it's slanted up so that the aircraft have time to decelerate like before they hit the wall. So it's it's pretty nuts if you watch the videos. So flew into there and I think that's at around 9,000 feet. So you start at Lucla and then it's 10 days up to Everest Base Camp. You end up, I think base camp is around 18,000. So you make stops along the way and we had two Sherpas with us. So it was two ODAs that did it. So it was about 20 guys and two Sherpas. And it was a blast. Like it was one of those things that once in a lifetime opportunity for sure.

You know. And I think the most amazing thing is the Nepalese people that live there. Like just incredible, man. You'll be it you'll be like 16,000 feet at like the second stop before base camp. And there's pool tables and like full bars and like somebody carried that stuff up. Like on their back, you know. It's just nuts. I remember, I went to the Annapurna bass camp.

We did that too. Yeah. That's awesome. So you know that exact walk through that valley. Yep. Did it in the summer. And one thing I'll never forget is the porters, like you said, someone has to carry that stuff up there.

And the porters carrying the things on their back with, you know, it goes from their head, the band. And then they're carrying it on their back the way they did a thousand years ago, I'm sure. Yeah. But now they're on the trail playing Candy Crush on their smartphone. I'll never forget that. No, that's a good point.

I literally Skype my wife from like the stop before Everest Space Camp. I was like, how is their internet up here? You know, like somebody put in the infrastructure. It's pretty wild. Yeah, it is. In today's world. Absolutely. Yeah.

I think they use a lot of hydroelectric in some of those villages now. And they've connected the villages with the suspension bridges, the foot bridges. Yeah, that's right. Which are crazy by the way. Especially when you run into like, I think they're ox, maybe. I don't know. But you run into like packs of like oxen or whatever they are. I'm probably butchering that.

Yeah. They'll be like on the bridge and then you see them coming on the other. side and you're like, we have to get off this bridge. Yeah. We're about to get trampled and you're getting me nostalgic. I love Nepal. I had a really good time over there. Really cool experience.

Did, uh, was there any force protection issues? Like I remember one, another funny thing was driving around over there. They always wanted to put me in the front seat because we want the Maoists to see that we're driving a white guy around. The reason being is that they do care about tourism and they don't want to scare away tourists. So they figure we'll put a white guy in the front seat and they won't put rocks through the windshield. That's interesting.

I never even thought about that. I don't remember that specifically, but that you bring up the driving. The driving over there is insane. Some of those mountain roads. Yeah, where they're doing like 42-point turns. And you got like half a wheel hanging off and like, that's death right there. Yeah, a dude back there chocking it like at the last minute.

It's like. And they just do it every day. It's like, man, what's wrong with you guys? And so the, presumably somewhere, along this J-set, you guys had actual work to do. Were you, we working with the Gurkhas or the Rangers? We worked with the Nepalese Rangers. Yeah, cool.

So it was cool. And that was my first J-SET. So it's an awesome experience. What was it like working with those guys? They were, the language barrier was vast. Like, there was no English speaking. Unlike the Philippines and stuff like that where they're, you know, pretty prominent. So the language barrier is definitely there.

So we had to rely on our interpreter a lot. But it was good. I definitely. You can say Terp, it's not a bad. Terp, thanks. No matter who says it. I know, interpreter is hard to say. Yeah, Terp is fine.

But no, it was a really good experience. They were definitely, I don't want to like bastardize this, but they weren't as competent as I would have expected, I guess, for like a special operations unit, right? I'd say it was, but at the same time, that was good for us, especially on a first J-SIC because it allowed us to really like learn how to teach, right, and really learn how to be that SF guy instead of working with a more competent. Like the Jordanians. Right, exactly, where it's almost like peer to peer, you know,

so it allowed us to be, to get into that role, really. That's cool. Yeah. Anything else you want to tell us about Nepal? I think that's it. What about the PI? So the PI, that first trip, I'm trying to remember the first trip. Nothing significant happened. We worked with the range, actually on that trip too. Scout Rangers. Yeah, Scout Rangers. Yep. They were awesome. Yeah. Man, the Filipino Army, they were like our little brothers. Those guys like the fight. They are amazing. Yeah. And they like the NBA. Like, no one else's business. It is bizarre. But, no, that trip was really good. We kind of had a,

that was kind of a Cush trip to some extent. Like we stayed in a hotel. Meg Say-Saysay? That, no, our OEFP was Meg Cic-Sai. Yeah, so the six-month there was Megsai-Sai. But, But that one was actually, I don't even remember the location, to be honest. But no, that one was good. Actually, I do have one story from that that I can remember. So I'm an 18 Charlie, and I'm teaching time fuse. And we're just doing like single blocks of C4 with time fuse hooked up to it.

I don't remember whatever, two minute time fuse, something. And we had like six blocks laid out, like spread apart in this open field, right? And we get our safe distance and we put off the time fuse and we go back to the safe distance. And everything's going fine for the first four blocks. So it's like five, four, three, two, one, bang, you know, we're all good. And then the fifth block, nothing happens. And I'm like, shit, what is happening? And at the same time, we see like a little brush fire on the side.

So it was like an open field with like big brush on the side of it. So we see a brush fire starting on the side. And we still have two live blocks. blocks so we can't do anything right and this fire starts spreading like pretty pretty rapidly and I'm like shit like this is you know this is my second trip as a charlie I'm just like oh god like what do we do I wanted to go out there but I can't because there's live C4 out there um so the six block actually went off so the six block went off so now there's a fifth block that's still just out there and I was like all right I talked to my team starting. I'm like, dude, we got to do something. Like this is about to burn down the jungle

in the Philippines. So we gave it a couple minutes. I think it was like three minutes or something, which felt like an eternity. And then at that three minute mark, me and him went down there, kind of got like a distance look, you know, very like very cautiously approaching it. But we saw that the time fuse had gotten cut from that fourth charge. So it projected and cut that fourth time fuse before it could have hit the C4. So went out there, cut the time fuse really close to the C4, grabbed, you know, obviously the block was fine. And then literally like 30 or 40 Philippine scout rangers and us rushed down and just

start taking pig branches and throwing down and trying to get, take this fire out. And it was a good probably 15 minute process. That's wild. Next time, have them tie into a ring main. Right? Yeah, right. I know. So lessons learned, right?

And how, I want to ask you a question because, you know, you did this trip to Nepal, you did this trip to the Philippines while the GWAT is still, you know, active or Afghanistan particularly, how did you, like, was there any sort of stigma about that? How did you feel about that? Yeah, good question. There was for sure, especially we had buddies who went to fifth group and third group and were already deployed, you know? And I'm just like, man, like, I don't get me wrong.

I enjoyed everything I did in Okie and I loved it. But we definitely, or at least I felt that 1-1 had that, like, you know, the party group and the you guys don't do real stuff group, you know, because we were doing J-Sids. And so, yes, absolutely. I definitely felt that. And for you personally, even though you were having a great time and you were doing, you were doing the SF job, for sure. Did you feel like you were missing out?

Yes. Yeah, I did for sure. And because you do all this training, right? Right. You're just like ready to go. And you want to use it. Yeah, you want to do the job. So yeah, I did.

Especially because our company just deployed Afghanistan. We just missed it. Right. You know, so it's like, and Oki in 1-1, you don't, it's not like a normal rotation, like other groups where you're, you know, in a year or a year and a half you're going to go. Right. So it was like, damn. Just kind of a one-off type of thing.

Yeah. Like every couple years. or whatever. So, yeah, for sure. I definitely felt that. Tell us about the second pump to the Philippines then. Yeah. So the second one was a, it was a, we were working with the law enforcement there. So the Filipino D.A. Oh, okay. Yeah. So it wasn't necessarily military. It wasn't the SAF? So is that the police force?

Special action force. So they were involved, but our primary was the DIA. It was the P.D. Yeah, P-D-A or something. So we actually worked at their schoolhouse. But it was treated pretty much like a normal J-SID. Like we did the same shooting POIs and demo POIs and medical POIs. So it wasn't too out of the ordinary other than who we were working with. But that was a, I mean, I don't remember anything dramatic or crazy happening in that one, to be honest. It was just, it was a good trip, though.

I do remember that. And so when did the idea start to occur to you that you were interested in putting in your flight packet? Yeah, good question. So when my, so OEFP was our, we did a six-month rotation to the Philippines after all those Philippines trips. So I spent a lot of time there. And my son was actually born right before that trip. So I literally like said, good luck. And I'm out.

And it was like, I think three weeks after he was born, I was off to the Philippines. So the nexus of it, and I didn't mention this before, was I looked into a program called High School to Flight School before I even went 18 X-ray. And that's essentially where you can, if you have credentials, right, if you're like a pilot already or something, you can go straight into the Army and become a warrant and go fly. So I already had that in the back of my mind that I kind of had the aviation bug that I wanted to do it. and with that deployment and with kind of, I don't want to talk, I hope this comes out right, like my wife did not deal well with me being gone all the time. Sure. Right.

So she got really stressed out. People don't get married to be single. True. Yeah, touche. So, and she was active duty. She had a baby at home, colic baby, right? So it was a lot of just stress that was weighing on her. So I kind of, I kind of saw the writing on the wall that, like, if I stay in this job and

I'm constantly gone all the time. Like I'm kind of putting her through hell to some extent, you know? Right. So I'd look to the other options. And aviation was the thing that I was like, okay, this is going to not only accelerate my career pay-wise, right, but it's also going to give me a tangible skill that if I want to get out, I can fly, you know. So those are the biggest factors that went into it.

And then during that OEFP deployment was when I would drop my flight packet. Yeah. And tell us then a little bit about that. that process of, you know, presumably your packet gets approved and now you're going to flight school. Yeah. So it's a pretty comprehensive packet. You do resume, you do letters of recommendation, the whole kind of traditional military packet, I guess, if you will. And then it goes in front of a selection board. So there's a selection board at Fort Rucker that basically goes through all the candidates and says yes or no, we're going to give you the chance to come to flight school or not.

fortunately i was obviously selected um and got the opportunity um i do think a lot of it was because of the letters recommendation well and probably being an sf guy i'm sure helped a lot um but yeah that's that's kind of how it works so and then once you find out you're selected then you just play the waiting game and wait for orders to rucker fort rucker yeah good old fort rucker yeah and how did flight school go for you i think we've talked to a couple 160th pilots about flight school. And you're like going through conventional military training, right? Yeah. So, dude, it was a culture shock to the core for me. So I was expecting this. I had this like opinion that in aviation, everybody's on a first name basis, you know,

you can grow out your hair. Maverick. Super chill. Yeah. So I had that false expectation going into it. I get to Fort Rucker and you take off your staff sergeant rank and you put on this stupid, like snowbird rank is what they call it. It's like a W-O-C, whatever. Yeah, the walk. Basically signaling to everybody that you're a newbie. Yeah. Yeah.

You're the FNG. So first, though, before you're in flight school, you go to Warren Officer Candidate School, which is, in my opinion, the stupidest army course. It's changed now, thank God. But it was not a gentleman's course. was like a mini basic training where you have no phones or anything for like five weeks. And I'm telling you they basically are trying to do basic training over again in a five week period. Which is really weird because like it's not basic training and it's not like officer candidate school.

Right. Right. Like you're taking people who have already been in who are now, you know, in this really unique world. Yep. And you're treating them like their boots. Right, exactly. And it was, it was like one of those things where you had to have your clothes perfectly dressed right dress and like label them and like all these just stupid things that you had to do to get through. It was honestly like one of those. She's been like how many pots of coffee can you chum? Like, I know. Warrants. How many course lights can you join? Yeah, exactly. How late can you be for this? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. How many cigarettes can you put out in, you know, five seconds. Yeah. So that was like a, so that was just dumb. It was one of those things you just had to get through. I ended up being like the cadet commander or whatever you call it for that, which was actually cool because the last two weeks of it, I got my own office with my sergeant major. And he was a former 160th guy, not a pilot, but he was going to flight school.

So we got a TV to ourselves. We got a coffee maker. And we got to go to like Walmart and stuff off base. So you got the real war on experience. So we got the real. Yeah. I think that's where it was. Exactly. If you excel, then you can get the taste of it.

So, yeah, that was, but honestly, that course was just a check in the block. And then getting into flight school, so I was the second flight school class that flew the new Lakotas, the LUH is. So that also came with some stigmas of like, you're not a real pilot if you're training this, right? Because it's not the way we did it in the old days. You went through the first easy course, the second easy course. Exactly. Didn't have to go up both ways. anymore. But that was a really cool experience. The Lakota is for anybody that doesn't know. It's

just a little more advanced than the old trainer. So it has a glass cockpit, which means like digital and autopilot systems, has full hydraulics and everything like that. So it's almost, in my opinion, it's a better training aircraft for where Army aviators are going, right? Because we're going into these advanced airframes that have these systems. So it allowed us to, to, to, learn how to use the systems, still learn how to fly, right? We still, like, they were, they turned off the systems, so you learned how to fly. But, but, yeah, it was a good, it was easier transition because of that to the blackout. Hey, guys, our show is sponsored by GhostBed.

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Thanks, guys. But in flight school, so since I had the improper expectations, right? And I was expecting to be treated with respect and all this stuff, that's when, I started down the mental health throughout. So my daughter was born when I was in flight school and I did not want to take paternity leave because if you get recycled, who knows how long you could be just sitting on hold to go into the next class. So I didn't take paternity leave and I was just going, going, going. And my wife is just, God bless her, but she's just dealing with everything, right? While I'm just trying to succeed in flight school.

And looking back on it, now I can see like why it happened, right? Because I was just stressing myself out to the max. But one day in class, we were just learning about the Black Hawk engine, nothing crazy. And I just got hit with this random suicidal thought and came out of nowhere. And it was the problem for me was that I wasn't able to just be like, huh, that's weird, right? And let it go. I like obsessed over it. Right.

Like I was like, why the hell did this happen? I've never been through this. I don't know how to react to it. And how the hell do I fix this? Right. And that just reinforced this like endless thought loop, you know. And obviously I didn't know it at the time. And probably like you double down on how hard you're working.

Exactly. Yeah. So, and that's a good point because it lasted for a long time. Like it lasted for a good five years. And I kept trying to just succeed my way out of it. Right. You know. Which I think is a blessing, you know, because I.

point because I didn't, you know, I didn't take my life and I didn't get to that point. Right. Because I did have a purpose. But at the same time, like, I also didn't give myself the space to, like, actually figure out what was going on. So you weren't seeking out any, like, formal mental health treatment at this time? So I did one time. So there was one day where I was leaving, leaving class from flight school and driving home. And I was scared to go home because.

of the, you know, I was just scared it was going to happen that night. Was it like an ideation? It was, 100%. It was like a vision. Yeah, okay. I literally, like, visualize it. Yeah. Shit.

Did it, I don't want to revivify this. No, no, you're fine. I'm good. Okay. So, was it sort of like, I, like, this would, like, I just want this to be over. Like, this would be, it just be, like, so easy, like, so easy to just, like. And this, whatever I'm feeling. Yes, that.

And I literally saw myself. So it was always worse when I was laying in bed, which is pretty universal. But I had my pistol in my fingerprint safe next to my bed. And I literally saw myself like do it. Obviously, like you don't see yourself die. But like I saw myself do it. And it was that vision kept coming up in my head. And it was to the point where.

it was like, I can't escape this thought. Right. Right. So yeah, to your point, it was like, like, it's just not going to go away. Right. It's going to be like this forever. And, you know, it's one of those things I think, like any sort of like, those recursive thoughts, once you sink into it, you know, if you can't just like let it go. Right. Like once you sink into it, that it just, yeah. Yeah. And it started, it started becoming like every situation too. Right. Like if I was driving, even with my family, it was terrifying because it was like, we're driving over a bridge. Right. And I'm just like, I could do it right here. You know, and it was just, they would just keep attacking me. So, but I went to the chaplain that day because I was like, I can't go home. Like, I have to go talk to somebody. So I went to the chaplain, told him what was going on, kind of poured my heart out to him. And he took me to behavioral health while I'm in flight school at Fort Rucker. So yeah. You were scared, right? I was terrified. Yeah. I didn't want to go to. behavior. That's why I went to the chaplain, right? Because isn't there like a myth that if you go to the chaplain, he's not going to tell

anybody else. That's what I thought. Right. And I, that's a myth. I didn't like look into it before, but I just thought so. Right. And apparently, because he told me that he's like obligated if I say like I have self-harmed thoughts or whatever, he's obligated to take me. Right. So literally I had to get in his car and go to behavioral health with him. That must have been terrifying. It was so scary and filled out this stupid suicide questionnaire, right? It was like, it was basically a cessation. like your seriousness, how serious you are. Did you lie on it or do you tell the truth?

So I didn't have to, fortunately, because the questionnaire was like, there's a couple questions. It was like, do you have thoughts of suicide? Yes. Like, do you have thoughts of harming others? No. Do you have a plan to do it? No.

Because I didn't really, right? Thoughts, but I didn't, wasn't like, I'm going to go do this. Right, right. And then do you want to do it was another example of the question. And I was like, no. You know, I don't want this. It's just happening to me. I wouldn't be talking to this.

Yeah, exactly. So I filled that out and then the lady takes me back in the room. And I kid you not, she just has the clipboard that I filled out. And she just reads it to me. Just reads my answers. And at the end of it, her synopsis was, well, I think this is something temporary that you're going through. So I'm going to let you continue training. Basically kind of the comeback if you need us, right?

Check the block. Yeah. Well, but thank God though, too, right? True. It's a blessing in disguise. But at the time, I was like, are you freaking kidding? You're like, this was a cry for help. And you're just going to throw me out to the wolves.

Right. So that kind of like solidified that like, all right, I'm not going to behavioral. Right. I am freaking fixing this on my own. I'm not going to chaplain. And I'm definitely not going to chaplain. Yeah. So that's solidified.

Yeah, right? I know, dude. Like that was supposed to be a safe space. Yeah, exactly. So between me and God, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Honestly, I was hoping the chaplain would just be like, come see me once a week.

It's the same with a licensed psychologist if you say I'm going to like. Yeah, but chaplains are supposed to be. like that's supposed to be like sacred yeah and i think they even like advertise that to some extent right like hey i have an open door come talk to i think they allow it to so i kind of self-perpetuate you know they might like push it along but you're not safe right and when i say you're not safe like obviously chaplain should report it obviously if they think that somebody is is in duress or you know a threat to themselves but but The thing is that like, whether it's a veteran who's worried about red flag laws or somebody on

active duty who is worried about getting pulled from their unit or, you know, whatever, flight school or whatever. Yeah. Like, there have to be ways for people to address these things, like sound off, right? There have to be ways for people to address these things that, where they feel safe that they're not going to be punished for it. Exactly. And that's that's kind of my whole like stigma thing, right? And that's what my book's about. It's, yeah. Like, we have to break that because so many dudes and you guys probably see it more than I do, but so many guys are still making that decision, right? And still ending it all because, in my opinion,

because they don't feel safe or don't feel like they can go get the help. And I think the military has proven itself even until today. And Jack probably knows more about this than I do. that they can't be trusted. Like if you go for help, many times that will end you. There are protections, but there's a very specific way. And I think it's actually the Behavior Health Clinic at the hospital, like the TMC on post. If you go in there and say, I'm having a mental health crisis, there are some protections in place for you. But if you go to anywhere else, if you go to your first sergeant, you go to the company commander, you go to the chaplain.

They can not always, but they can totally fully. fuck you, which I'm not saying they're all out to get you. Yeah, yeah. A lot of them will do the right thing and get you the help you need. But historically, yeah, there are guys that have gotten totally true. Yeah, I mean, if, like, if they want to get somebody off their books because they don't, you know, want it to be a black one. I mean, I don't know if, I don't know if they still had it when you were around. I mean, but when I was in the Army, I mean, there was like a strong social shaming aspect of it that somebody who, somebody who said, I'm having suicidal thoughts had to wear.

a road guard vest and be escorted around by two soldiers at all times. Yes. And one thing that that reminds me of is 30th AG. So 30th AG for the audience is like your first day in the army. Like when you're in processing to go to basic training, you go to 30th AG. The worst place in North America. The worst place ever, just purgatory. But I just remember, distinctly remember there being this like, there was like a quad, right? Like an open quad. And then there was a balcony or whatever you want to call it, a railing. And there were soldiers up there that were pulled from training and had their shoelaces taken away because they were suicidal.

And the drill sergeants talk shit about them, right? Like, if you fuck up, you're going to end up like them. And that's the day that everybody learned, like, all right, if you have mental health problems, you don't talk about it. Like, you keep your mouth shut out and you just freaking drive on. So you go to behavior health. She gives you kind of the clean bail of health. Do you tell your wife about this?

Yeah. So my wife picked me up, actually, because I didn't want the chaplain to drive me back. That bastard. My wife was pissed. She was mad at you? She was mad at me because I went there instead of talking to her first. More pissed that, like, she didn't know, right? And then in this came out of nowhere.

Yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely. So that's how she found out. Well, actually. I misspoke. So she found out before this, okay? But she thought it was a one-time thing. And how she found out, which is also messed up, I told her, hey, babe, I need you to go in our safe, take apart my gun, and hide the components from me. That's how she found out because I was just,

I couldn't go to bed with my gun right there available. So that's how she initially found out. And then I think this was a couple weeks later when I went to the chaplain. That's when she came and she was pissed because we hadn't talked about it since then. It was just kind of one of those things that I don't think she knew how to deal with it, right? And then obviously I didn't know how to deal with it. Sure. So yeah, she was mad. She was mad, one, because she knew the repercussions.

She knew what could happen. And she was also mad that I even had to go to behavioral health because she, like, she knew that I went to the chaplain first. So she was mad about that aspect, too, that I got forced to go there. So it's twofold. Yeah. So what happened the next day at work at school?

I can't even remember, to be honest. It was a blur. But did they, did anybody say anything to you? No, no. Nothing happened. You know, what's interesting is I didn't hear a squeak about that. And I didn't even know it was in my medical records until I was getting out of the Army. And I, like, reviewed everything.

And I was like, huh, there are. actually is a note in there about that because I was in my mind I was like man did that really happen yeah yeah well it sounds like the chaplain did maintain his confidence so I think that's probably what happened did he ever check on you though no the chaplain never came out and gave you like a starbursts and said hey no true how are you doing no isn't that crazy that is kind of crazy yeah pocket Bible yeah I think he just I think he just took the clinician's word for it maybe you know and trusted me to come back if I needed to I don't know so I don't know. I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but...

That's kind of bizarre, because generally chaplains are really... I agree. They're like Ned Flanders, right? Yeah, for sure. You know, like a lot of chaplains are like that. Hey, you know... I remember you had this two years ago. How's going, how you doing, you know?

Yeah, for sure. I remember a few chaplains that were like fire and brimstone, like, Ranger, Jesus wants you to kill America's enemies. Yeah, but they were also, but I mean, we had one of those, but he was also, like, you know, he would come and check on him. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Like, you care. Sure. Yeah.

I wonder if it was like one of those things that Rucker's just such a big trade-off case. Yeah, he could be. You know? Yeah. Yeah. He was just like. So you're dealing with some pretty significant stressors in life. And at the same time, you get assigned to Third Combat Aviation Brigade.

What was that experience like when you hit the ground there? Yeah. So I actually, yeah. So Third Combat Aviation Brigade was cool because I wanted to go there. Like, I wanted Savannah. It was my first choice. because they were deploying soon. So they were going to Afghanistan because as a new pilot,

like flight hours is everything. So the faster you can get progressed and get to pilot and command, which is when you're like in charge of the aircraft, the better for your career. So it was good, but it was very much not big boy rules like I expected, kind of like I said. The warrant officers in aviation end up being kind of the people that do all the details and stuff because the crew chiefs, the enlisted guys, are busy,

like maintaining the aircraft. So that all falls on the warrant officers. Because your officers aren't going to do it. Right. Yeah. Or they're doing flight schedules. You know what I mean. So it was like, so the warrant officers, one dude will be in charge of like, I was the

goggle custodian. So I was in charge of inventorying, maintaining all the MVGs. One guy will be the supply sergeant for the company, like as a warrant officer and still having to fly. So there's a lot of like extra duties that you have to do. So I think the short answer is I wasn't happy with my choice to go aviation initially and even through Afghanistan. I just wasn't happy with it. The long answer was like at the same time it was cool.

It was still cool, like flying helicopters and progressing through that and stuff like that. You know, one of the things up to this point that I appreciate about your story is like a lot of times people associate like a lot of the mental health stuff and whatnot with like this really severe post-traumatic stress. this really traumatizing event and all this stuff. But it doesn't, like, it doesn't have to be connected to that. Like, it can just, it can be stressors, you know, the way we perceive ourselves, the way, you know, what the standards we're holding ourselves to, whatever is. But it can come from anywhere at any time. Yeah, for sure.

And it's a testament to that. And this is not to brag by any means, okay? But you see all these high performing guys like end up taking their lives, right? And everybody's like, what happened? Like, how could that happen to him? I thought he had his life altogether, right? And he did on the outside. And that's kind of what I was, right?

Like, I ended up graduating of the Distinguished Honor graduate in my flight school class. Through all that, you know, even when dealing with all that, like, so that just shows, like, that you can mask it. And it's fairly easy to mask it, to be honest. Right. You just kind of stuff it down and keep going and just deal with it on your own. That's kind of why I want to say that Is because like there's a lot of people out there That are very high performing and they fall into this trap

Real common with the soft guys Right Like one friend of mine used to say You know it's being functionally fucked up Yeah You know that you're high performing But your internal world is just total turmoil And I think that it'll for a lot of

Especially like soft guys I think that there is a lot of miscorrelation With post-traumatic stress and that stuff. I think that there is post-traumatic stress, but I don't necessarily think that the post-traumatic stress is what leads to. It's so many other things. I agree.

Especially with the guy's transitioning, right? Yes. Because they're going so hard and then the noise stops and they're like, what do I do? Like, who am I, you know? With your process of going through it, do you know, were you able to put the finger on sort of what the trigger aspect or the balance aspect of it was for you?

you? Kind of. So I just looked at looking back, I can look at like the stressors that were leading up to it. Sure. So like my transition from SF, me not being happy with my aviation decision, the grind of flight school. And then my daughter being born, her not sleeping, you know, so sleep was all jacked up. My wife was also stressed out. So it was a lot of like compounding factors that just kind of landed at the same time. Yeah. And led to it. But the weird thing is they're well. no like slow lead up right like it wasn't like i was just like oh life sucks you know it's just like boom dude they they fielding told the same story yeah exactly yeah yeah so that was the most bizarre thing because i did not i'd never dealt with anything before you know like that so i had no idea well you know

and i think you know like you know they talk about the 22 a day and 23 a day but also if you look at men at a certain age or whatever that they're you know that their statistics are much so it's not just the veteran. It's not just the combat veteran. It's not just the soft. But it's definitely a very male oriented, like, you know, whether it's, we feel like we're not living up or we feel disillusion, whatever it is, whatever combination. Yeah. I feel like we just take on so much, right? And we feel like we just, we have to. Yeah. And we just have to push through no matter what. Yeah. I think so, too. It's very interesting. Yeah. So your missus must have been thrilled when you got deployed to Afghanistan.

Yeah. Fortunately, by this time, she was out of the Army. Okay. So it was better. Yeah. She was out of the army. We were stable in Savannah. Like, she didn't have the stress.

She was a signal officer and she hated the Army. She hated her job. Like, it was just one of those things that she was just like, give me out of here. I can't wait to get out. So stress was mitigated by that a lot. And the kids weren't babies anymore. So they were, it was a little better. Yeah. So yeah, it was more tolerable for her.

Honestly, I probably had a worse time than she did during that nine months because I was still dealing with that crap. So you were a Black Hawk guy, Black Hawk pilot. What was the Afghanistan deployment like? Very frustrating. Yeah. Yeah, because... 2017. 2017.

Yeah, so flight school was 2015 to 2017. And then Afghan was 17, 18. very frustrating because as a like former SF dude I wanted to do the cool stuff get after it I wanted to bring people to X I wanted to you know be doing the missions and 95% of our flying was ass and trash just moving people from the airfield airfield yeah just ring routes yeah whether it was day or night it didn't matter it was and when we did get a mission that was supporting like an SF team or something the senior guys would take it and none of the

the junior guys got to go on it. So it was one of those things where I was like, cool. Like, how am I going to learn if I don't get the chance? Right, right. So by the end of that deployment, apparently I have a thing with ends of deployments and changing careers, but I dropped my 160th packet because I was like, I am getting out of the Army or I'm going to the 160th. Like, I didn't sign up to be a pilot to go fly and land a driver.

Yeah, yeah. Like, that's not what I wanted to do. Yeah. So at the end of that deployment, I finally. That was the blessing of the deployment, though, is I got a lot of hours. So I went far ahead of my peers. So in a matter of a year, I was able to drop my 160th packet, which they do have minimum requirements for hours. So it's 500 hours, 500 hours and pilot and command.

So you have to be a piloting command and have 500 flight hours, at least when I assess. That's what it was. So I hit that at probably the month 7 mark of my deployment, and I dropped it right away, got my letters wreck and everything and then by the end of that deployment I had an invitation to go assess so I got back in June 2018 and then August I assessed so it was like it was perfect because I was in nine-month deployment shape you know going into assessment so and what was assessment like for you it was definitely hard mostly because I was still dealing with this crap so I was at this point it was I was having these like physical dizzy spells so

the depression had morphed into these dizzy spells, which I didn't know what they were at the time, but their panic attacks, which I didn't know. So I was dealing with that. So that part was tough. And then assessment is one of those things where it's meant for you to feel like you're failing the whole time. So I don't think anybody goes to it and is like, yeah, I crushed that. Right, right. But it was also at the same time, as hard as it was, it was a good insight into the regiment and into how,

professional and next level they are because I to be honest I was feeling pretty confident in like my ability to fly and my ability to brief and plan because I just come off the deployment and a lot of like repetition and I get to the assessment and I you have to put together a brief and stuff and I got torn apart in that brief like just annihilated and so many questions that they asked me I just had no answer for I didn't even know what they were talking about some of the times And that was just kind of like, okay, this is the big lease. You know, like this is where I want to be. It's type of thing.

So, so, yeah, it was definitely hard. More mentally and just lack of, you're just sleep deprived and having to do a bunch of things. So more mentally challenging than physically. The physical stuff was, it wasn't bad. It was like PT tests and stuff like that. So I feel like you should do well. Were you surprised to learn that, yeah, you survived that panel, that board? Have you heard about that?

Oh, man. The one you told me. Yeah. So the 160th, you're talking about the end of assessment? Yeah. Yeah. So the 160th board at the end of assessment, this is, I can't give too much away. But what I've heard and what I know now is that if you crushed assessment, they're going to be dicks to you.

Like they're just going to tear you apart and see how you react, right? It's kind of their last view of their last view of like, all right, let's tear them down and let's see what he does. And so I get through with my board and I was shaking the whole time. Actually, an interesting point is you have to talk to the psych during one point in assessment and I was still hiding everything. And during my assessment, I was like shaking. And he called me out on my board and he said, you look extremely anxious right now.

And I played it off and I was like, I mean, I am, sir. This is a lot of pressure. You know what I mean? Like I played it off. But like at the same time, I was like, shit, he sees right through me. you know um so i leave the board it's like i think it was an hour long board um i leave it i go in this waiting room it seems like forever they you know it's where they you know get their council together and say whether you made it or not and i come back report back to the room and when i walk in there's a

paper sign it's handwritten that said no go i was like fuck you know like all this freaking work so i walk in and stand in attention. And the president of the board, it was the DCO. So it was not the regimental planner, but the guy below him. And he was like, Mr. O'Kelly, like,

I appreciate you coming, you know, you put your good foot forward. We want you to go back to your unit and then come back here in Green Patoon in January. And I was like, wait a second. Like,

does that mean I passed? You know? And like, then everybody started clapping and stuff. So, yeah, I know. I was like,

Yeah. Right? Yeah. 100%. Can you imagine. Can you imagine somebody? But that roller coaster is like, can you imagine there's somebody who like spazes out at that moment?

God. What would they do? I heard a story about a gentleman at the board for Delta Force selection who picked up the folding chair and won it at the board members. Whoa. Because he's just like fucking with them. Fucking with them. They're SF guys.

Right. At a certain point, like I can't take the shit anymore. dude. Yeah. Yeah. I get it. Yeah. Dang. That's crazy. It's like Thunderdome. Yeah. Yeah. So that was my, that was my assessment. So how did that feel for you? Like, amazing. Yeah. Amazing. And I will say that the suicidal stuff did kind of get better. Like it was now it wasn't like overconsuming. It wasn't like every day I was dealing with it. Now it was like every once in a while. But the anxiety was still there. Yeah. The dizzy spells were still there. But the suicidal ideation. did get better as my situation improved.

Did you at all, you know, because, you know, you were in SF, but you didn't go to Afghanistan, then you went aviation and you were doing the ring routes. Did you at all feel as though you kept missing it? Yes. Like this, like this world just wasn't what it was supposed to be for you? 100%. Because, and then cherry on top is my brother has kind of followed my footsteps. So he went SF and everything.

And when I got back from Afghanistan, He goes to Afghanistan with 10th group and sees all this shit, right? And does all this awesome stuff. And I'm just like, dude, come on. I've been in the Army for, you know, this long. And this is your first trip. So, yeah, I definitely had that. I definitely had that, like,

stain of, like, you know, two deployments. I don't even have a CIB or a cab for that matter. Right. You know? Like, so, yeah, I definitely had that. It was like, because it was one of those things where you always wonder, right? Like, sure. Like, even though I know I would have done the job and I would have,

oh, it's not like I would have ran away. But it's always a question. It's always a question, sure. It's still that thing. And how was Green Platoon when you got there? Green Patoon was, it was great. So I, when I got, when I found out I was going to the 160th, I was told I was going to go to First Battalion and fly DAPs.

So I was told I was going to go be a DAP pilot. Yeah, so I was pumped about it. And I made the first. fatal mistake and bought a house for Campbell and found out about, I think, a month prior to reporting that I was going to third battalion and not flying gaps. So I was going to Savannah. Savannah. Back to Savannah. So we had to make the kind of decision of like, all right, we'll just rent out the house if it, you know, if it doesn't appreciate in value or whatever. So I show up to Green Patoon and the first part of Green Patoon is Officer Green Patoon. So that's when you're doing like the

the kind of soft version of basic training, if you will, right? Like, they're teaching you, which is actually good. Like, it was actually, even being a former SF guy, it was still good because I got a lot of reinforcement. Was this finally, though, the warrant world that you thought there was? Yes. The gentlemen's... Very professional.

Very much so. Yeah. And the enlisted guys, it's a different story. The enlisted green platoon, that's... They're getting smoke and they're getting kind of indoctrinated. But that's also a lot of them are like straight from basic training AIT to bear. Rightly so. Yeah.

But it did feel good to be on the other side for once, right? So yeah, we got the big boy rule as we got to do. It was a lot of like medical training, shooting, some land nav, things like that, nothing crazy. But then you move into your BNAV, which is basic navigation. And that's where you learn to navigate in there without any instrument. literally a map, a map and a stopwatch, and you're flying off waypoints. Yeah. It was plus or minus 30 seconds.

Plus or minus 30 seconds. It was so hard. Yeah. You, but the cool thing is you do, I think you do nine missions total. And this is a three-week period where you're ingrained in it, like your 16-hour days every single day. But missions, I'd say, one through three, like nobody finds their target and nobody's on time, you know. But then by mission four and five, like, you start finding it. you start getting on time and it's pretty awesome to see like what you can do right with that

training because you have to adjust for winds and all this stuff and that's all in a little bird so you're flying a little bird and literally just using a finger light on your map and like all right i hope that's that intersection you know and like yeah it's it's pretty cool yeah it's pretty cool to see it all to come together and then by mission nine like yeah everybody's saying their target do you feel that your time in sf you know having done you know start course and all that stuff Do you feel that that helped you there? 100%. Yeah.

100%. Yeah, I think just honestly, like the basic land navigation concepts, right? Because I did start out. Handrails, backstops. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I started out that course.

I do feel like I had a leg up on everybody already because of that. Yeah. Especially in the green between part, but definitely in BNAV. I think that helped a while. Yeah. Yeah. And just understanding how it works. Back to assessment.

So we have to do that in assessment too. And I actually, humble brag, I was one of the rare people that found my target. I wasn't on time, but I found it. And I was so proud of myself. And then, of course, the Cadre or my assessment pilot was like, you suck. You didn't, you know, you were out of time, out of standard, you know. And I'm just like, oh, come on, man. I've heard nobody finds their time.

Yeah, even if you would have been on time, he would have found something. I know. But, but yeah, so that's BNAV. And then after that, you go into your airframe. So you go into the 60, course. And that was incredible, man. That is where you learn to fly like the 160th. Yeah. That's where you're going to Colorado, going to Virginia Beach and doing overwater mountains and learning to put one wheel on a pinnacle. And it's really cool. Yeah. It's really cool.

And one of the cooler parts of that course, too, is you're being taught by like 160th legends. Like these guys, they're just contractors now, you know, and they're insanely like relaxed. But also insanely just competent good at what they do. Yeah. Like those guys are just, yeah, phenomenal pilots. So I guess I think for people who may not be familiar with like how the 160th is different than, you know, like conventional army, especially with like Blackhawks and stuff is, you know, you think of like, like maybe a BMX writer, right? You know, a guy doing jumps, blah, blah, blah. And then you think of the guys who like hop up on rails and ride down rails and bunny hop on, you know, like between like pillars and stuff like that.

And it's like what what the 160th pilots are capable of doing on any airframe. Yeah. But are capable of doing it is insane. It's incredible. Yeah. It's incredible. There's even. And some of the pilots in the 160th are a lot like I would I would consider myself like a decent pilot, right?

And there's some pilots that are just insanely phenomenal. Yeah. I fly with one guy. One guy in my unit that I can distinctly remember. Like, he was so good that I was nervous in the cockpit with him flying. But it wasn't like, because he was dangerous. He was just that good and that like, all right, yeah, let's do this. And I'm just like, dangered, I wouldn't do that. Yeah. So it's pretty cool to see, though. And it's cool to be a part of. Yeah. Really cool to be a part of. And then you get deployed to Iraq. Yeah. With the unit. Yeah. So this was the infamous COVID deployment. So we went out there and it was supposed to be a 60-day deployment and then the world shut down and we got to enjoy it for another 60 days. So it ended up doubling, which doesn't seem long, but when you're in the 160th, the op tempo is insane. Like it's every day, 12-hour days, you know, so you're not like, it's not like a nine-month

deployment where you're like five days on, one day off or whatever it is. You know, it's balls to the wall every single day and you're going hard. So, yeah, it ended up being a, yeah, a four-month. deployment. I don't know how much I can get into about that, like the specifics of that. But did you finally feel like this is it? That's what I was going to say. That's what I was going to say. Yes. That's where I got. Airframe. Like this is, I'm finally doing it. That's where I got it in. And that's where I was, yes, that's where I was finally like, finally. I've done something that I signed up to do, you know, which was the coolest part about regiment is that. I know Lindsay mentioned it. like we truly train as we fight and like on deployments we do the job that we're supposed to do.

You know what I mean? Like we do the mission that we're designed to do. We're not just like, oh yeah, maybe we'll do that once in a while. Is there any that you can kind of like even a roundabout sort of way I talk about? Yeah. Yeah. So I can talk about one where I'm not going to like say locations or anything. Sure.

We took no eight digits. This is this is kind of a funny story in a way. Because I don't have, like, I don't have any, like, crazy, like, you know, we almost got shot down. Yeah, like, I don't have any, like, valor-worthy stories, you know. But one funny story is, so we were the dirty bird since it was COVID. So we had to figure out, like, all right, if we take someone off target, like, what are we doing with them? You know? So what we figured out or what we decided, I didn't decide, but the higher-ups decided.

That was we're going to have one aircraft dedicated to any detainees or anybody would take off target. and they're going to be the dirty bird. So we take someone off target and this poor guy had to be like wrapped in a body bag, COVID swab and all this stuff and fly back like three hours, I think, two and two and a half hours maybe in a black hawk, just pitch black, right? Just on the ground in a body bag, literally like no idea what's going on. And then when we landed, we had to, our decontamination plan was literally like go into conics that they put heat lamps in,

stripped down and rinse off and then uh throw on whatever just normal clothes and leave our uniform in there for 24 hours. That was like our decon plan and voila everything was good. But like that's that's like the most um it's just dumb. It's just dumb like looking back on. I'm like why the hell do anything of that? But like nobody knew what to do. So that was just like the answer for it. Um but other than that man I don't have any like crazy stories like we did our job and nothing fortunately nothing really went sideways yeah except there was one mission that this is another missing out opportunity so there were valor awards on this mission and um our aircraft was broken so we didn't go oh shit so four other aircraft go on this mission and it was like a QRF um in the mountains and

like right on the x or yeah it was actually um i don't remember the specifics but it was like on a mountain side yeah um and they had to go do some high hovers and fast rope people and and actually i think repel people out was what it was yeah so it was pretty intense like hovering at like a high hover you know getting shot at yeah repelling people out real time i mean that that's just so that's vietnam ars that right right it really is balls of steel to just keep a bird in place when everybody has a beat on you're helpless yeah yeah because you got to like the troops got to get down exactly yeah you pull off and they're taking that that's a long-ass fast rope yeah 100% exit yeah yeah yeah so so getting back to the

united states from that deployment like what's going on with you personally and professionally at that juncture so i didn't um at this point i was still progressing so um in the 160th when you first get there you're BMQ so basic mission qualified so that's like the entry level whatever um your goal is to make FMQ, so fully mission qualified. So that's when you, it's the same as a pilot in command in the regular army. So that's when you have control of your aircraft and you're like in charge of your crew. So that was like, I was progressing towards that during the deployment in Iraq. The good part about the COVID problem was that we did have like, it got shut down for a little bit, so we weren't doing anything for a little bit. So there was some training opportunities.

So I got to actually lead some missions, training missions, right? But I got to plan, brief, and execute all those and get those done, which helped me kind of progress towards that fMQ. But then in January of the next year, so Iraq was 2020 and January the next year, I had my FMQ ride scheduled for April of that year. but I was having a lot of knee issues, like to the point where I couldn't run more than half a mile without having to stop. So I got an MRI on it and they found that I had like a defect in my knee. Like there was literally like a hole missing in my knee

that it was just bone on bone just grinding. Yeah, I think it was just like wearing tear over time. But I also think there had to been some genetic. Sure. It doesn't happen to everybody. So I ended up having to get knee surgery that January. And that was a nine-month recovery time. So blessing and a curse.

Like, I was pissed off, obviously, because I wanted to, like, continue progressing. But during that nine-month period, that allowed me to accept the fact that I was already grounded and tell somebody about these dizzy spells. So that gave me, that gave myself the permission to be like, all right, let's try to figure this out. Now that I, now that the consequence that I was scared of is gone. Right. I'm not flying. Let's try to figure this out.

So what that leads to, though, this is a really long story. So interrupt me if it like this. Before you start that, I want to ask you one thing. I want to, before you start this story. Yeah. When you were, you know, like just hop and poppin, like in Iraq, did one, the ideation and two, the anxiety, was this still there? Did it seem to go away with the adrenaline and stuff like that? Yeah, that's a great question.

So the suicidal ideation was pretty much gone by that point. I was still having the dizzy spells and the anxiety, but the ironic thing is it never happened in the aircraft. Right. It was, I think it was the adrenaline, though. I think it was the adrenaline and the focus required, right? Because like... You're in the zone.

Yeah. So I really, I mean, I don't know, but that's what I attributed to. Because, like, that would have been a different story. Also just a total focus. Yeah, exactly. And you're, like, task. saturated so your mind's just going but it's so pure right like those moments of like that you know whether it's an athletic flow state or whatever the combat is just so pure yeah that

it's it's hard for anything else to to be there no that's a really good point yeah um because that would have that would have definitely been like a safety hazard sure like I would have been like okay I should probably do something um so no it never did thank God um but then so during after the knee surgery I told my flight surgeon that I have these dizzy spells and I was like I don't I didn't tell her my history of mental health because I was not ready to open that can of worms yet. So I was basically sugar-coding it, if you will. I was like, hey, I don't know what's going on. I'm just- Yeah, I'm just having these dizzy spells. I don't really know how to explain it. So that's exactly what they did. They sent me to E&T, got my ears checked out. That was all fine. So then to spare you the long details, we do head-to-to-to-test, right, to rule out for. physiological things. But one of those tests was a sleep study. So I go for a sleep study with a civilian doctor in Savannah that I got referred to.

And after that sleep study, I got diagnosed with narcolepsy as a pilot, right? Oh, wow. Yeah. So I was like, okay. Like, one, that might answer these dizzy spells. Maybe I'm like falling asleep, having micro-naps, right? And causing my body to be like, you know, you were falling over. I don't know. So there was a sense of relief in a weird way because of that. Right. Like I was like,

finally I have a answer for what's going on. But then the army, so my flight doc is like, okay, dude, like, you can either reclass or you get out of the army. Like, you can't fly with narcolepsy. But where did, but this has never been like, you never like, you never nodded at the stick or anything like that. Never happened. I will say, I will say that like during that anxiety period, like, when I would drive home at like 3 p.m. 4 p.m., I was exhausted and having like a lot of daytime sleepiness, but I, that's also because I was so anxious all the time. And I was like, my body was working overdrive, right? So in my mind, the diagnosis was like, okay, like, it kind of makes sense. And I kind of talked myself into it making sense. Right. So my flight doc puts in a med board.

And they decline it because the sleep study wasn't done by the Army. Of course. So I'm like, all right, sweet. So. So now I'm just grounded still. And by this time, so this was the end of that year, by this time I knew was recovered. So I wasn't like, so I kind of felt like a bag of ass because I was like, you know, I'm grounded, but I could fly if I needed to. So do the Army sleep study. I have to go to Fort Gordon and do all that. And the results came back and they say, you have no diagnosable criteria for narcolepsy.

You freaking kidding me? So you're back on flight status? No, because they permanently grounded me when I got diagnosed with narcolepsy the first time. Holy shit. By a civilian. By Fort Rucker is like, okay, we'll accept this diagnosis. Right, right. But the Army won't.

But the Army won't let you get out. The Army does, yeah, they don't let that money go. Exactly. So now I'm in this like even worse purgatory of like, I don't have a diagnosis, but I can't fly. Right. Because you have a diagnosis. Yeah. And I'm still in the unit.

So I am very grateful that I was in the 160th because my command was incredible throughout all this. Like they were, they had my back, right? and they actually sent me to the safety course at Rucker, the aviation safety course, so that I could continue contributing to the unit. So even though I wasn't flying, I ended up being basically the company safety officer, which is like, it's honestly pretty cool because you get to like, you get to be pretty autonomous and I still got to go on like TDITY trips with the company.

So I was actively participating without flying, which was like a halfway point, I guess. but then this leads to me eventually the flight doc eventually saying all right let's let's have you talk to the psychologist you know and just see like see if there's anything there right because we've ruled everything else out we don't really have an answer and after probably two months of talking to her she's like all right we're going to get you to the psychiatrist and we're going to try to treat you for anxiety and kind of see what happens and at this point I didn't care because I had no, there was no consequences at that point. So I'd do that and I get on, I don't remember the first one, whatever, Lexa Pro or something

like that, get on pills and the symptoms started to improve. Like, not dramatically at first, but enough to be like, okay, like, I think there's something here, right? And it didn't, there, we went through maybe six different cocktails of drugs. Had anybody looked at your medical file to see, like, that you had had the ideations before? Had anybody done that? Nobody even brought that up. Ever. Nobody brought that up ever.

Interesting. Because I was honestly, like, kind of scared that they would, right? But no, nobody ever brought that up, which I don't know if it's because it was too far back or what. But so, yeah, so I get to that point and it's working. And we finally get through a bunch of different medications because everyone has side effects, of course, that I hated. and we got to affects her and literally i'm not kidding like 95% of the symptoms went away like it was like night and day and it became it became to the point where they were still happening but they were so situational that i could pinpoint exactly what was happening and when they were happening

and once i told the psychologist that like hey it's happening when i'm in formation right or it's happening when i have to give a brief or it's happening like when i go to church or when i'm in like a big stadium. She read the symptoms of panic disorder and I was like, freaking nailed it. You know, like I didn't want to accept it, right? But then I did. And I'm not going to lie, as cheesy as it is. Like, that's when I started actually healing and getting better was when I was like, okay, this is it. You know, like, this is actually what's happening to me because I did not want mental health diagnosis. What was the process of the healing for it? Was it just the realization or were there other steps that you started taking with that? Yeah. So contrary.

to most people's opinion, I will say the medication was the thing that gave me the space to heal. I know there's a lot of like hate on it medication for some reason, but it did give me the space to heal. Like, so it allowed me to, like I said, like identify the problem and actually pinpoint what was happening. Instead of it just being like this all day, you know, kind of crazy anxiety life, I guess. So. Yeah, I tell guys to that and try to remind them like, because there is a stigma. against prescription drugs for some good reasons. Yeah, I agree.

I agree. Some realistic reasons and, you know, the way they affect people and guys really don't like how it makes them feel. And also, like, I think the, like a lot of, like the VA, like they're reliance on it that they're just going to pump you full of it. And that's going to be, that's what you do. But the thing is some of these guys, some of these veterans in this case are hurting so bad, they need those prescription drugs just so they can get to their VA appointments or whatever else it is. And so like I try to frame it for them like use it as a stepping stone to get to the place you want to go, which I think is. That's a great. That's exactly what I would say to is like it like I said, it gave me the space, right? It gave me the clarity to be like, oh shit, okay, like that's what's happening.

And then now I can figure out like what I need to work on externally so that because now I'm off the medication and I don't have those dizzy spells. Right. So it's one of those things that like it was necessary at the time. It was helpful at the time. but I don't see it as a long term. Like, don't just accept you're going to be on it for the next 10 years. Right. Take it if it helps, you know, and then get yourself out of that situation by doing other things other than just relying on. So when that space was created for you and you could sort of see it,

were you given guidance in terms of how to manage it? Did you do your own research? How did that happen? Yeah. So I will attest for and praise. raise my psychologist at the 160th. So Regiment has specific psychologists, and she was phenomenal.

Like she very much was the no BS type of psychologist that wasn't just trying to, you know, like, say, oh, just float with the world, right? Like, she was very, like, happy thoughts. Yeah, she was very practical. Yeah. And very much like, hey, dude, like, why did this happen? How do we avoid this happening in the future?

And how can we, like, make sure, you know, you have the tools so that if it does happen again or you start to see signs that you can get yourself out of it. Right. Right. So yeah, she was phenomenal. I know not everybody can say that about every psychologist out there, but she was, I will give her like mad props for that. She was phenomenal through that process. So what was that process like for you? Was it like CBT? Yeah. A lot of it was CBT. Actually, most of it was CBT. Okay. I will say that like prior to getting on the meds, we tried those things and they didn't work.

Okay. So that's where I say like the meds were important because when you're so deep in it, like if you just go meditate and think that's going to fix everything, like good luck. You know, at least in my situation, it was not. It would give you a panic attack. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And when I tried the breathing exercises, that's what it did.

Yeah. Like I would try like the box breathing and all that stuff, right? And everybody's like, I watched YouTube videos, you know? And everybody's like, this is how you cure anxiety, right? If you're having a panic attack, just do this. And I would do it. And I'm like, that's bullshit. Like, that didn't do anything.

That just made me think about my anxiety more and be more pissed off. So, so yeah. I mean, but the irony of that is like now those tools work. Like, now that I'm out of that and now that I'm off meds, like, now those tools work. Because I have a clear enough mind that I can actually use them, you know. So what was that? So you take the meds, you start the CBT, you start these things. What was that sort of process like for you?

So it was a good, it was about a year, actually, process from... Were you still unactive the whole time? Yes. Okay. So I got medically retired in May of 2023. Okay. So once I got, and I got the panic disorder diagnosis, I think in May of 22. So I think it was a full, almost a full year of me basically trying to get back on my feet and get, figure out what's happening.

and whether I'm going to get medically retired or not, right? Because I was trying to get back in the cockpit still. But it did get to the point where she was like, well, really me. I made the decision to get medically retired. So I got to the point where I was like, I need to be on these meds. And I couldn't fly while I was on the meds. So, well, you can, but it's a pain in the ass. And I was just at the point where I was like, I'm freaking done.

Like I've gone I've put myself through so much shit like I just need to be done and get out So that last year was me Basically trying getting medically retired so it was about a year But the process to your question was it was a lot of CBT It was a lot of um it was a lot of digging into like The why of like everything kind of which like It's a big not right yeah yeah like Like, why are you, like, what do you want to do as a dad?

What do you want to do as a husband? Like, it was a lot more like purpose finding, which was weird because I wasn't expecting that. But now that I look back on it, that's kind of what it was, was like, why are you doing all of this? Why are you doing anything? You know? And like, and that was good because I never really stopped to think about that before.

You know, I was just kind of going. So real quick, for people who might not know CBT is cognitive behavioral therapy. Just throw that out there. What, did you ever tell her about, like, the ideations that you had had? Yeah, once I got permanently grounded. So once I had that narcolepsy diagnosis, the gloves were off. I said, screw it. Like, I'm telling her everything.

And that also attributes to her actually being able to diagnose me something and, like, actually be like, okay, like that everything kind of makes sense now that you're talking about, you know. The irony or one crazy thing, though, is when I, like, talked about those dizzy spells, nobody even brought up anxiety being an option. Right, right. Like, it seems kind of. We literally did head to toe tests of everything else. Right.

And anxiety never came up. And it didn't, it wasn't to the point where we ruled everything out. So that was an interesting thing because I've talked to multiple people since I've like actually spoken about this who are like, dude, I've had the same dizzy spells. It's like, how is this not like a common knowledge from doctors that, you know? Well, I also think, though, that, you know, when you talk about panics, or anxiety that unfortunately that there is a certain image of a person who suffers from panic or anxiety that comes to mind and it's not some guy flying you know black hawks through a rock yeah that's a good point now that's a good point you think of yeah you think of like some some victim right yeah right's not

that's scared to leave the room or something it's it's you know yeah um so yeah and to be honest i didn't want it to be anxiety. You know, like I wanted it to be like my ears are jacked up or something. That way I could justify it. Because panic or anxiety, that sounds like weakness. It's not. Exactly. But it sounds like that. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And that's the, yeah, that's one of those stigmas. Yeah. One hundred percent. Yeah. Good point. And so what was the next step for you and your family after being medically retired? So I, I'm fortunate that I had this nerd side to me that always liked financial stuff. So I like grew up listening to Dave Ramsey and all that stuff. And I just had this like, I don't know, I was one of those guys that just like, that would be my podcast that I listened to.

You know, we're like personal finance stuff. So when I found out I was getting medically retire. I had about a year actual runway before I got out, which was a blessing. That's when I was like, all right, I'm going to go be a financial planner. And I started doing all my coursework and getting all my certifications. So that literally when I got out of the army, I had my certified financial planner exam done and I was just ready to kind of hit the ground running. And I networked my way through LinkedIn. So people transitioning out there, one of the best things that I ever did was actually like reach out to people on LinkedIn, which went against everything I believed as a soft guy, right? Right.

No social media. But I got the balls to like actually message people that were on LinkedIn doing what I wanted to do in and we were looking at Charlotte. That's cool. Yeah. And fortunately, one of the guys that I messaged was like, hey, I started a firm and we need advisors. Do you want to come work for us? And I was like, hell yeah, that's amazing. That's awesome.

Yeah. So right off the bat, I was able to land a job in Charlotte and kind of, it wasn't like a salary job, though. So it was he would kill. It was he where you kill? Yeah. Yeah. It was basically like you start with nothing. You don't have clients, so you got to build it.

It's kind of big when you've got a family. Yeah. Yeah. Luckily, I did have like the military benefit. They weren't like full paycheck, right? They wouldn't like cover all my expenses, but I did have like the disability paycheck and stuff like that to kind of bridge the gap and then some savings built up. But yeah, and then after about a year working for that firm, I met another guy in Charlotte

who was starting his own firm and he said, hey, do you want to come partner with me at this firm? And that's where I am now. And it's called Cadence Wealth Partners. What is it for anybody who? needs a financial advisor in North Carolina. We're in Charlotte, but we're virtual now. Oh, virtual?

Anybody anywhere? What's the name again? Cadence wealth partners. Cadence wealth partners. Yeah. And it's cool because I work with veterans. Like, that's my like niche. Like, I just love it.

You know, like I try to go like the ultra high net worth and all the cliche advisor, you know, routes. And most of my, most of the people that were coming to me were from my network. like naturally right first and I was like I love this like I love working with them you know so so yeah that's what I'm niched into yeah it's fun and how did this book project come about stigma which is going to be out in October 21st good question so when I was getting out um I none of my peers knew why I was getting out they all I stuck with the narcolepsy diagnosis the entire time because that was the easy button, right? That was the non-stigma button, right? And you were grounded for it.

And I was grounded for it. Right. So I did get diagnosed with it, you know, and that's what I felt, I was like, okay, like, I can tell people this because that doesn't mean there's something wrong with my head. Right. So all of that happened to me, all of these freaking five plus years of just grunting it out, right, and dealing with this and suffering through that, once I finally got out and told, I think I told my brother about it first and he was still in. And he started crying and he was like, and he's not like, he's a tough dude, you know, like he could kick my ass to be honest. And he's my little brother. So that's saying a lot for me to admit that. But he started crying. And I was like, the hell, you know? And he's like, dude, why didn't you tell me? You know? I'm like, I couldn't

man. How am I like, I couldn't tell anybody this. Right. Right. He's like, that's a problem. And I'm like, Yeah, it is, dude, I know, but I just didn't feel like I could. So, like, I couldn't even tell my own brother, you know, who I'm, like, closest with more than anybody in the world. I was like, this is a cultural problem that, like, needs to be talked about. So that's kind of where I was like, screw it. I'm going to talk about it. And I'm going to just lay it all out there and see what happens.

Like, it was terrifying initially. The first time I talked about it, I was like, dude, I have no idea how people are going to react to this, you know? Like, because those stigmas were still there. Like, is my reputation going to be gone if I mentioned this, you know? But this surprisingly, man, it's been the opposite. And I, yeah. It's so weird, too, isn't because, like, the civilian world has gotten to a point, I think, where talking about whether it's panic or anxiety or whatever you're talking,

whatever things you have going on with your shrink, like they're almost badges of honor. And they're weird. In civilian conversations now, right? Where with the military or veterans and stuff like that, or maybe men in general, I don't know. Yeah. But it's still a very like... Yeah. Because it's like, I don't know.

I feel like it's like you feel like you're exposing weakness. You know what I mean? Right. Even though you're not. Right. To be honest, the most courageous thing I did was talk about it. Yeah. As ironic as that is, you know?

And as scary as it was, like, it took balls to speak up about it. And like, it's been super rewarding, you know. And my hope is that more people will come to that realization, you know, that like, dude, I was a zombie for six years of my life, you know, like, I was not a present dad or husband. Like, yeah, it just sucks, you know. And so what's the book going to be about? It's your story. So it's going to be my story, but it's also going to be deconstructing some of those

stigmas and saying, showing why they're, why some of them do have, validity, right? Because there are, at least in my situation as a pilot, there were repercussions for going on medication or doing that, right? So there are some that have validity, but the primary objective with it is one, to deconstruct the stigma and then two, to show people that you can be a freaking stud and deal with this stuff and it's okay, right? It doesn't make you like less of a man or anything like that. So those are the big objectives. And then hopefully my, my big, my big, overarching mission is to, and this is a really big mission, but to ultimately lower the suicide rate. Because, like, I'm sure you guys have both lost friends to it and I have two.

And they were studs, the people that I can think of literally off the top of my head. And I know they were dealing with some of this. And I know they were dealing with just the fear of what if I exposed this, right? And they got to the point where it was like, it was easier for them to do it than to tell somebody about it. Yeah. You know, which sucks, but that's the reality. So that's my overall, like, million, you know, mile mission is to lower those stats. And so when is Stigma going to be out again?

October 21st. So please, if you are listening to this, you know, there's not a pre-order link out yet. Not yet, no. So if you are listening to this, please put that in your phone as a reminder, October 21st for stigma. You know, you get this, yeah, these are things that, you know, even if it's not something for you, if it gives you awareness, and you don't even have to be a veteran or no veterans, this is, these are, these are issues.

And it'll give you, you know, a place to start. Right. Whether for yourself or for somebody who you know. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's something that should just be talked about, you know. Absolutely. And not be like, do. you're a pussy for saying that.

Absolutely. I just think that's dumb and that's literally killing people. Exactly. It pisses me off. Yeah. Well, you know, and it's unfortunate because ever since Vietnam,

you know, every portrayal of military post-traumatic stress or military mental health has been post-traumatic stress of, you know, somebody having flashbacks with Charlie in the wire or whether it's the punisher. Like, it's always this really horrible

representation of what veteran mental health looks like. Yeah, no, that's true. I mean, even in my situation, I got diagnosed with anxiety, PTSD, depression, and panic disorder. Like, they just lumped it all together because they're like, I don't know what to do with this guy. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

So it's like, yeah, it's to your point, right? Like, everybody just thinks PTSD, but there's so much more. And even though even PTSD is not represented in modern culture the way it actually really is. Yeah, exactly. You know, like we're a danger to everybody around us. No, you're just a danger to yourself. Right. For sure.

So, yeah, so stigma October 21st. Will it be released like on Amazon and all the... It'll be everywhere. Yeah, everywhere you can buy a book. Yeah, is there anything that we've left out or anything that... Where can people find you? So, good, good point. Thenickel-Celly.com is my website.

I got Instagram and YouTube links on there too. So I got a YouTube channel where I'm talking about this stuff. And then I do want to do a non-profit plug if you guys are cool with that. Sure, absolutely. So a former 160th pilot started a nonprofit in Nashville called the Arc Health Foundation, and I'm on the board of it. And essentially the goal of it is to get around these stigmas while they still exist. So it's a human performance optimization center geared towards brain health, right?

So geared towards non-medicinal ways to treat mental health. So think like all those modalities that like Andrew Heberman talks about, that's what it's focused on. It's going to be absolutely free to veterans and active duty. So it's ARC Health Foundation. ARK or ARC, ARK. AARK Health Foundation. Yeah. So it's going to be a completely stigma-free place, right?

Like somebody can just show up there and say, hey, like, I want to go do this modality, right? And they don't have to say, like, because I'm depressed or because I'm dealing with this, right? It can just be like, hey, I want to get better at this or whatever, you know? So it's taking all that brain science and brain health that Huberman's been spearheading and really putting the awareness out and putting them all together in one facility for active duty and veterans. It'll be really cool. Yeah.

It's still in the startup phase. So we don't have the facilities. We need 300K for facilities to actually be fully funded. And the first one's going to be rolled out at Fort Campbell. So, yeah. That's awesome. Pumped about it. Should we start with a go-fund me for you guys?

Yeah. So for more affluent viewers and listeners, R. Kelp is looking for 300K of endowmenters, right? Or whatever they call. Donations, yeah. Donations, yeah. Yeah, thank you. Text deductible donations.

Exactly, right? So it's the Nick O'Kelly. The Nick O'Kelly. Okay, great. And all my handles are at the Niko Kelly. And they're all in the description. Yes, so thank you, Nick for sharing your story with us. Yeah, I know some of these stories aren't pleasant to like kind of relive, but for reasons you're well aware of, it's important to get that stuff out there to

God only knows who's watching these things. I mean, all types of people watch it. People who I hear from them sometimes are like, man, this podcast got me through like a hard time in my life. It's like I never thought that people engage with it in that way. But I'm glad if it helps somebody. I hope so too. You know, this message gets out there to folks. Yeah. So yeah, thank you again. And we'll make an announcement on the the show when the book comes out. I'll let folks know. And for everyone else, we'll see you guys next week. Take care out there. And if you are not a member of our Patreon, you might want to join to hear this really salacious story about how he met his wife. Spicy. Spicy. Hey guys, it's Jack. I just want to talk to you for a moment about how you can support the show. If you've been watching it, enjoying it, but you'd like to get a little bit more involved and help

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