The Team House - From Stryker Warfare to YouTube (Task & Purpose) | Chris Cappy | Ep. 303

Episode Date: October 17, 2024

Support the show here:⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseChris Cappy is a former US Army infantryman and Iraq Veteran. He covers geopolitics, history, weapon systems and all things military related for Task & Purposehttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSq3p5NKEtyp5Rjd4ctiEbg—————————————————————-____________________________________Pre-order Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" today! ⬇️https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/——————————————————————To help support the show and for all bonus content including:https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse-AD FREE AUDIO-AD FREE VIDEO-Access to ALL bonus segments with our guestsSubscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseOr make a one time donation at: ⬇️https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouseTeam House merch: ⬇️https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963Social Media: ⬇️The Team House Instagram:https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_linkThe Team House Twitter:https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePodJack’s Instagram:https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_linkJack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21Team House Discord: ⬇️https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6SubReddit: ⬇️https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSampleWant to sponsor the show?Email: ⬇️[e-mail]#taskandpurpose #strykerBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Hey guys, it's Jack. I just wanted to talk to you today about a way that you can help support the podcast if you're not already. To support the channel is to become a Patreon member. So we have Patreon memberships that start at just $5 a month. And when you sign up, you get access to all of our episodes ad free. That's the big bonus for that. I mean, we also do some Patreon bonus episodes for our subscribers. But this is the biggest and best way that you can support the Team House. channel and podcast if you'd like to and we really appreciate that so go it and check us out at patreon.com slash the team house special operations covert ops espionage the team house with your host jack murphy and david park hey everyone welcome to episode 303 of the team house we're here today with chris Chris runs the task and porpo. Task and Purpose. YouTube channel. And we're happy to have you here in studio tonight.

Thanks for having me, Jack. We're excited to be here. Thank you, Dave. This is unstoked. So glad that you're in studio with this, too. Yeah, there's something about being there in person. That's nice. It's the booze.

That's the part of it. And the cigar. Usually on webcam, I have to hide it. I have it in like a juice box, a pre-s-s-sond. But we all know what's in there. Yeah. Yeah. If you don't hide it, you get an article about you in New York Times talking about how debauchous you are. So you went from being a U.S. Army infantryman to being a fairly prolific YouTuber.

Let's talk about this whole journey kind of like where it begins and where you are today. Yeah, literally let's start at the beginning. Like where did you grow up and what drove you? you towards the army. I grew up on Long Island not far from here like an hour out east and I don't want to say I grew up sheltered but I did grow up a little bit sheltered and I felt very fortunate the life that I had on Long Island and I needed discipline let's say like I needed a little bit of edge. I was going to originally I was going to art school in New York City and when I was there it just felt like I wasn't getting

what I needed out of it it wasn't challenging me and also I did I always I love telling stories but I felt kind of like I had no stories to tell I had no nothing that I was really passionate about you were a young guy

yeah it was like 19 years old and hadn't really like it sounds terrible to say but I hadn't been tested and I felt like I needed to be tested to find out who I who I am what year was this roughly

this was in 2000 Okay. So I'm in New York City learning about cameras and it's just feeling kind of empty and I'm sitting there in my dorm room like playing back the 9-11 footage over and over again and kind of getting angry about it. And I'd grown up a very conservative person. My dad, we'd always listen to talk radio when we're driving through the traffic on Long Island and that traffic is killer. So there's a lot of time to kill when you're listening to Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh. And so I'm getting all these, my dad, and everyone is like very pro the Iraq invasion. And so I kind of felt like when I'm in this dorm room, I'm telling my buddies, like, the war in Iraq, I'm getting drunk.

The war in Iraq, let me tell you about the war in Iraq. It's a good thing. We're not there for oil. And if we are, what else is worth dying for? And like these art school kids are looking at me. freaking out. Yeah, they're like, I'm trying to paint, man. Like, what are you talking about? They think I'm crazy and I, well, I am. But one of them calls me out on my bullshit. And I don't know if this has ever happened to you when like someone says something to you that you know is true. And you're like, oh, fuck. I've been married twice, so yes. Yes, okay. Yeah. And you don't, you don't say, yeah, you're right, honey. You nailed it. No, you're like, okay. So as I'm on one of my tirades about how the war in Iraq is a good thing. this one German foreign exchange student at art school,

who's also there for film, tells me, if you believe in the war in Iraq so much, why are you here at art school? Why don't you enlist and go fight over there? And I'm like, you don't know what you're talking about. Why would I do that? That's stupid. I don't need to do that.

But then I actually look in the mirror. It's one of those moments where you have to look in the mirror and kind of ask yourself, like, that is hypocritical of me to be all for this war and not be willing to go and actually put myself on the line. So I should you not, like, the next week I hit up a recruiter and I ask him, like, what's the process for going in and enlisting? How, what would that look like? And that's what started me on that path. was someone what did the german student say when he found out that you had started on that path so i it wasn't it wasn't like it's interesting you asked that because it's it wasn't so much

that i wanted that he needed like his validation or like cared so much about what he thought it was more like i i never actually went back to him as like told you so like do it right right Like, which in hindsight, I probably should have. That would have been a satisfying, like, validating speech. But no, I never went back to, um, to settle that score. Yeah. So, um, you enlisted guard? Mm-hmm.

And how did, were you balancing that with school or would you pull out of school? How did that work for you? So I was, I was certain that I was going to hate the military. Uh-huh. I was like, I heard all those stories about. There's a lot of mis. Every day is like boot camp. Exactly.

I went into it thinking for sure this is not going to be something that I like or I'm going to, I was worried that I was going to commit to like eight years active duty and end up like getting dishonorably discharged because I hate it so much or something. So I did the minimum amount of initial commitment to see if I kind of liked it. And so I did National Guard infantry with the plan of if after boot camp, if this seems right, then like I'll just. deploy, do my time in Iraq, get back, and that'll be like, I feel like, because let me finish the point, tied the story of what I was saying earlier, which is that like, I felt like I was very fortunate that what this country gave me. And whether, really at the end of the day, whether the war in Iraq was right or wrong, I wanted to kind of do my part. When the country asked

something of us, like, I wanted to give back because of all the opportunity that I felt like I'd been given. So the plan was like, get in, deploy, and get out, kind of. It so happened that I ended up loving it. I'm like, tism levels of obsessed with the military and weapon systems now. But so once I got back from boot camp, I'll spare everybody the boot camp stories. Once I got back, I volunteered. Because in the guard, you can volunteer to go. So I went to my commander and I said, hey, can you sign this paper? The first unit that's getting out of here is the Pennsylvania National Guard.

Can you release me to go to them? So he was like, I'll sign this, but like, dude, we're not deploying for two years. You can chill. You're crazy. What are you doing? Why would you want to go? And he signed it and released. me so then I got with a couple of other dudes that I went to boot camp with we all

backfilled into the Pennsylvania National Guard who needed bodies because it was 2008 and they just needed people with a pulse so that that takes me to to that part and so let me ask you though because what was the New York Guard was your infantry was that striker or was it the New York Guard is light infantry there I was an alpha company in Lexington. There's very few infantry units in the National Guard, right? No, there's actually a lot. So the reserve has no combat arms.

Right. National Guard has, that's why I went guard, was because when I went to the reserves, they were like we have logistics, we have MI, which are great jobs. In hindsight, I wish I had done one of those cool ones like that. but only 11 Bravo units are in the guard. So that's how I ended up switching from the New York unit.

It's a long history, great unit there. The guys at the Lexington Armory, if you ever check them out. They went from their stories, they went from responding to the 9-11 attacks to then going to Iraq like two years later. So it was very personal for them. Yeah. Yeah. But an incredible unit there.

And also the Pennsylvania unit was like I just lucked out that I happened to be what I thought were good guard units. So was because for people who might not know the, and this is how it used to be, and you can correct me if it's changed, is that there was 11 Bravo, which was line standard infantry, 11 Charlie's, which were the mortars, and 11 mics, which were the mechanized, like, mechanized infantry. which I guess you learn how to work the systems and get on and off a vehicle. When you went to the striker unit, were they... Were they 11 mics or were they 11 bravos? Or what was that? When I was getting in, they had switched it to where it's just 11 Bravo. They got rid of all the other stuff.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. But yeah, they used to have 11 hotel, which I think was tow. Oh, right. And then they still have 11 Charlie mortars. Yep, yep. But yeah, it was just they kind of collapsed them all, which I don't know if they're now changing that and going back to designators. So your crazy ass decides to jump on this deployment with the Pennsylvania National Guard because you want to get out the door.

So, I mean, it's also a bit of a mystery to me, too. I mean, what's it like kind of changing states in the National Guard? Is it really just like a military transfer and you go over there and you start training with the youth? it and begin that process? It was kind of surreal and it all seems like someone else's life now

but it went from just yeah you're in the New York Guard and then you get kind of title 10 is it orders where you're on active you got to be here at this time at this date and then so we went to Camp Shelby for

mob up which is like three months of training with the get familiarized with the strikers. And we do like in the box where you're Camp Shelby was terrible, terrible

place and just an awful experience. And during Mobop we're in those briefings and they're showing you these videos and it's like non-stop just videos of dudes getting blown up by IEDs or like

snipers shooting guys and then they're like pulling their buddy away and then getting shot. And so I'm one month I'm in art school drinking and learning about, and now it's band of brothers. Stanley Kubrick's film. Can you give me an essay on Stanley Kubrick's movies and like pretentious art school stuff? And then two months later I'm watching videos thinking like, what have I done?

Yeah, you're going to be up in the bell tower reciting verses from the, Bible as you were there a point to these videos? Well, was it just other than the scared of shit out of you? An ill-conceived Motos session? Or was it more like a tactics overview of like this is how they're going to hit you don't fall for this?

Dave, I guarantee you that was the commander's intent. It's like, hey, let's show these videos so that and they get, let's give them analysis and kind of teach them to not get blown up. And not, how to avoid this. I guarantee you that was some captain's

probably good idea. And if the class was taught by Perron, this is like great YouTuber, if he did the rundown of that PowerPoint briefing, we would have gotten something out of it. But instead it was some E4 that could give a shit. Yeah, yeah. He's like,

yo, that was crazy, right? Yeah. Holy shit. And then you learned about the spec for them off. Are you, so what rank are you when you, did you get credits for your school and stuff like that? No, it was the lowest ranking, youngest guy in my company.

I was 19 years old. When I got to MoBup, I was EFuzzy, I think. Maybe an E1. And yeah, sitting there just thinking I've made the biggest mistake of my life, I'm going to get killed. And I'll share this just because

you know, so the whole point, the reason why I make content about the military is I want there's like, I wish that as when I was an infantryman, when I was a young guy, like I wish that there was a resource out there for me to learn about the geopolitics of these conflicts that were asked to go and maybe die in and like the weapon systems and in an interesting entertaining way to learn about these things and because I think it's scary it's freaking it's freaking scary when you're young right it's so different than like when I joined the military and certainly when

Dave joined the military back when we had cavalry you go to you go to like borders and buy a book And it was like a Vietnam memoir. Yeah. I mean, there was just like no information really available. Yeah. Yeah. And you remember like dudes there in the barracks reading like a book that some guy who had been deployed, like his experience and everyone's sharing it. But there's now with the way YouTube and like it has changed everything, you can really kind of teach people things.

And so it was so scary for me during Mobup that I literally wanted to quit. I went to my chaplain and I said I was like this is hard for me to admit but I told him I said I can't do this send me home I shouldn't be here like I'm going to quit

because I'm terrified I feel like I'm going to go there and I'm going to die and he the chaplain said to me he was like take a breath I you know if you want I can get you out

I can send you back home but I want you to take one day go back home or go back to the barracks think about it and if tomorrow you feel the same way I will start the paperwork and we will get you out of here and like you won't you're not going to be dishonorably discharged like you're just going to go back home we'll get for you know medical or whatever yeah that was big of him to do that really was this dude

changed my life and I said okay and he said listen I if I don't see you again I want you to know I think you're going to do this deployment and I think you're going to be happy that you did and you're going to be okay

for better or worse like this is I think you're going to be happy that you made this decision I went back to the barracks spent time with my squad the guys that I actually care about and the next day I was like

I can do this I can do it I don't want the shame of not being doing it of not doing it. And so I feel like a lot of people probably have, would, for reasonable reasons, would have trouble admitting that, like, you have those second thoughts. And because a lot of people, right now, I'm sure, are commenting, like, you pussy. And, uh, fair now. Those are, those are real thoughts, but then you're a real human being with real fears, um, that are not illogical or irrational. And, and, and there, there's, there's something inspiring about somebody who had those thoughts,

and still did it, as opposed to somebody who was just, you know what I mean? Your pal's in art school that are sitting on the couch eating Doritos. Yeah. Out of curiosity, did your family have any history of service? What did your parents think about this? Like, drastic detour you took. They begged me not to go.

They begged me, yeah, after all the, especially, I love my family. They're very, like, rah, ra, ira. But when I said I was going to go, they were like, well, no, not. It changes. Yeah. Not you. And they said, wait until you're an officer. Once you're an officer, then go in and it'll be better.

And they're right. That would have been better. But my grandfather, he was 25th, sorry, second ID, artillerymen in the Korean War. And always have so much respect for my grandfather and what he did. I mean, he was drafted into it, but that was the service that I had my family. And also, his brother actually passed away in World War II. He was flying Easy Company, and he was one of the planes that got shot down in World War II, but not much immediate family.

Yeah, yeah. But they were not happy. No, no, no. They wanted to serve in a different way. Yeah. Which, and I believe in that, that there's a million ways to serve your country. Sure. It's just for me, specifically, the way I needed to be of service was that way.

And you have to do that. I mean, if that's what you think about, you don't want to get to 30 and have ash in your mouth about, I wish I would have. That was a thought going through my mind. I feel like a lot of my life is based around like either way it's going to suck, right? No matter what path you go down. But that to me was the type of suck that I could live with. It's not necessarily a bad thing. And I mean, I don't know how you feel about it in like retrospect.

But when I look back on it, yeah, they're good and bad for sure. But like you think that kid that had that dream that they were going to be an astronaut, I kind of got to do that. Yeah. I got to live it. You know, so no regrets. And it's easy, I think it's easy to talk shit about your time in the military when you did it. You know, when you did it.

Like, it's like, I did it. And then, you know, you can look at kids and go, ah, fucking don't do it. But if they have that same drive, why would you discourage that? Because you did it. And, you know, and I can't, I mean, look, I'd probably have a family and be, you know, happy that way too. But I can't imagine what my life would have been without the military. To me, it gave me a sense of community and a sense of principles and values to try to, not been successful in doing it all the time, but like an aspiration. Yes. Yeah. And having that

for me was needed. I don't know about you guys, but like there were a ton of times where they're paying me to do this. I'm going to get to go in a Chinook, a Black Hawk. This, this, this striker is ours? This is just for our squad? Are you kidding me? Those moments, I like, hell yeah. So shoot us forward to the deployment and, you know, working with the strikers. I mean, those vehicles were relatively new at that time. What did you think of them? I know. Okay, so for the purposes of counterinsurgency coin operations, I thought the strikers were amazing. Yeah, yeah. And also from what I

I heard about the dudes that had Bradley's that for our purpose, like, I don't know if I'd want to be in Ukraine deployed with a striker necessarily, but I mean, I've heard good things there too as well, but for my purposes, yeah, okay, there were problems. The problems were the bottom of the vehicle was, it was like a thin sheet of aluminum for armor on the bottom, and underneath that is the gas line. and so what we did was we laid down and also the hydraulic lines for the rear door I might point out. Yeah, so you don't want to get out there, do you?

Because I don't know if you were thinking about getting out of it. Well, if the vehicle gets blown up, you might actually want to get out of there. Real quick, can you, for the viewers who might not know, can you tell us what a striker is? Totally. A striker is an eight-wheeled, not an infantry fighting vehicle, but they call it an armored fighter fighting vehicle or an interim fighting vehicle.

So it's got a ramp in the back that goes down and you can fit between eight to 11 guys, depending on how comfortable you are with sitting on each other's laps. So at one point we had 13 people in the back when we had a general come with us. But it's a fast moving. It goes up to like, I believe, 80 kilometers per hour,

and it's got either a 50-call on top or a Mark 19. And really the thing that sets it apart from like the Russian BTR is its suite of sensors and communications devices. So the striker has the Blue Force Blue Tracker, which this thing was crazy when they were showing it to me. It's got, it's basically, well, it's probably not that crazy. It's not crazy now, but stuff like Fleer and. and even pluggers. Like, it was cutting edge. It's all got to be encrypted. Yeah.

It's all got to be encrypted. So everyone has GPS on their phone in their pocket, but to have a GPS that is safe from being hacked into, and you can see where your friendly vehicles are on a map in Iraq. Yeah. Like the satellite systems are supporting all that. That was crazy. And you've got comms where you can push to,

you can talk to your battalion headquarters, and they can feed you in live intelligence as they're getting this info. Like it's this, it's not just an armored vehicle. It's also the electric, the systems that come with it. And, right, we were just talking about FBCB2 and how like, yeah, okay, kids might not be, think that's crazy, but it's encrypted. Yeah, nuts. That's a thing. Right.

Like Falcon View was amazing at the time. Fleer, too, is nuts because your driver can see what the gunner can see. You could switch between views. And it's a remote control weapon system. So it's got 360, you know, just guy with a joystick. And it's stabilized. So, yeah, it's, and we were the first guard unit to get strikers. And we had full spectrum.

So we were running our whole AO. We did everything from patrols to guard duty to, you know, we ran that little piece of Route Tampa. like key leader engagements all that kind of stuff so uh fleer is forward-looking iR infrared which it's the heat signatures and you can buy it off the shelf now but back in the day like it was magic it was like this is incredible you know you can see you know the silhouettes of the people in front of you yeah it's amazing i i don't know if you guys ever i'm sure you've probably seen some tech that you're like, wait, we can do that?

The one thing that bugged me out with Fleer was we also had, I don't know if you guys ever had this, this eagle eye, we called it. The sphere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so every once in a while we rotate through operating the eagle eye. And it's this, like, $300,000, insanely high fidelity thermal camera that's hoisted up,

excuse me, like, I don't know, 200 feet in the air or whatever. whatever, and then you can see out three kilometers or so. Oh, like the blimp, the little blimps? Is that what you're talking about? There were blimps, but this is... No, it was on a telescoping pole. Oh, I didn't know that. No, no, I didn't know that.

Yeah. So big, like a tent pole almost that we set up. So it's like a periscope in a way. Yes. Yeah, and it's up 200 feet in there or whatever. And we could, and we, you could see out all the way down Route Tampa, and every night you'd see dudes run out, try to plant an IED, out on the highway, and then, you could see dudes run out.

And then, you could see, So you spin up QRF. But that was, I'm like, wait a second. If we have these abilities, how long until this stuff like comes back home? Or like, our government can, we can do this? Yeah. You're looking into people's houses kilometers away. And as the 19 year old back in 2008, I was like, this is magic.

Like you said, it's nuts. It's a comment on how the technology diffuses and how quickly that happens. that back in those days, you know, we had this huge advantage because we were the only ones that had night vision, the only ones who had thermals. Once in a while, you might pick up like some, you know, like civilian-bought version of night vision that, you know, came out of a Cabela's catalog or something like that. But really, we own the night, right? And I think for Ukraine and some of these other conflicts today, that's no longer true. I talk about this a lot of times because this fascinates me, this idea of how do we continue overmatch at night? And it's interesting what you see them doing with the XM 7 and with the FWS or the

XM 157, where they're now moving to where you're no longer using a PEC-15 laser pointer. Everything is now thermal or piped into your optic. so we no longer have to hopefully give away our position, at least with the PEC-15. I mean, is that networked with the other guys in the unit? Or is it just to help that one soldier with his marksmanship? No one is using PEC-15s anymore. Is the way...

Interesting. So we still, I think, have overmatch at night, but it's not the same anymore. That's not what it was. You're not going to have the IR strobe on your helmet. Yeah, yeah. Yes. I used to walk around all the time with the...

I had the PBS 14s, which I see now what dudes are using with the white phosphorus and everything. Yeah, it's incredible. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah, I'm walking around, like, falling into ditches and, like, almost shooting at cows because I can't see, like, 300 meters ahead of me. So let me catch your video real quick. So when we're talking about Pac-15, we're talking about, you know, a laser pointer, but it's infrared. So you have to be wearing night vision in order to see it.

So when you're rolling up on a target and their dudes standing out, they have like 14 lasers on them and they have no idea. It's amazing. But now, Night Vision is cheap. It's a couple hundred bucks, if that, sometimes. And so you can't really do that anymore. So we're moving into this new arena of using the thermal imaging and things like that to do it. Fascinating stuff. We just, when we had, we just walked around, like, with impunity.

Yeah. And I always, I, the way I feel about it is, like, we, I was so lucky in this war because I didn't have to worry about air strikes. I didn't have to worry about shooting at dudes with body armor. Like, it just the, it was on another level. It was so asymmetric. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And a lot of times, I would say, I'm like, These guys, they're cowards. They're hitting us with IEDs and then they're running away. They're not standing and fighting. And one of my squad mates said to me, he was like, dude, they're not. Are we cowards for dropping bombs from 40,000 feet in the sky on them

and not standing to fight? No, they're smart. Like, don't underestimate the enemy. And when he said that, it's like, oh, that's totally right. It's kind of how we fought the British. a lot, you know, in the Revolutionary War, right? Yeah. So, yeah, it's fascinating.

I mean, you know, talking about thermal makes me think of, like, kill TV, you know, when you're watching, like, I don't know if you ever got into, like, a talk or a jock and we're able to watch, like, the AC130s or the 810s out there and, you know, seeing bad guys moving out and out through a field thinking that they're completely, you know, impervious. Invisible. As they're, like, crawling along the ground or whatever, and it's like, we see you. So I called in an airstrike one time. Okay.

Or helped called an air strike one time at our fob. So I lived on a little JSS, joint security station or a cop combat outpost right outside Camp Taji. It's about the size of a football field. There's six guard towers around it, surrounded by T-walls, about 40 Americans, 100 Iraqi police on it. And one night, I'm operating the Eagle Eye, and I see. guys out digging about 200 meters away from us and then the cop calls me up and they're like hey capi you see guys digging out there and i yeah roger i see them there looks like they're digging and they're like okay gotcha roger that then uh i hear helicopters overhead over there and suddenly

I see like the sky rips open. It just, it sounds and looks like lightning coming from the sky. And the Apaches go full send with their 30 mic mic, and they turn these guys to dust. And I'm watching through the eagle eye as they just get pasted.

And later on, that AH-64 thermal camera makes the rounds around the unit. And everybody's looking at it. And like, it's just crazy. to see what the U.S. military when, like, when they take the gloves off, it just, they, one of the squads had to go out and, like, pick the pieces of these dudes up.

So you've mentioned, I want to get into you, like, you're moving to the cop, because that's a unique experience. But I want you to tell us a little bit about Route Tampa. Like, what does that mean? And what's the big deal? Yeah. This is a popular meme about Rick and Moore. where Rick asks this little robot for butter

and the robot comes over and just gives him butter for his pancakes and he's like, is this my purpose in life? And Rick is like, yeah, it is. And so my purpose in life, our whole unit's entire purpose and why the U.S. government spent whatever millions of dollars to keep us on route Tampa is because that's the main supply route that runs north, to south in Iraq.

And if that route shuts down, then, you know, if an IED takes out that route and stops it, then all of the supplies that get run through Iraq shuts down. So that there really isn't, I mean, there's probably alternative routes that you can take. But as you know, there aren't many hardball roads through Iraq. So you're risking ending up stuck in the mud. And the supply trucks, the lodgies, really, they got to go. through Tampa because that's the paved highway. We were cool with Kuwait, but not so much with Turkey in regards to the war.

Yeah. With the supplies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's coming from the south, I'm guessing. All the like, the rippets. We're running on rippets, basically.

Running on Copenhagen and Rippets. Yeah. So Rippis was the energy drink out there and it was everywhere. And there's a lot of warnings on the back of that, although worth every year that it's off my life for how many I slammed. But, so, yeah, it's like a monster if you injected some cocaine into it. Yeah.

Did you ever try a wild tiger? No. Oh, man, that's another one. It's a... Actually, I wear the t-shirt sometimes, but it's another energy drink in Iraq, and on it is a tiger, and it's like jumping up, like, ah! And the little line on it,

it's total activation. And I'm pretty sure there's stuff in there that's like illegal in the United States, you know, if we were to definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. There are health codes being broken. So one of the challenging things about

about Tampa, like you said, it was the main road and for supplies and stuff. So you didn't just have like infantry on there like doing move to contact. You had truck drivers out there. You had maintenance people out there and they would get these massive firefight. They would get hit by IEDs, VBIDs.

Like it was a very very dangerous road. So doing full spectrum operations it was you know, three days a week you're doing QRF so you're responding to when they get hit and

that was one of the great things about the strikers compared to the Bradley is they can roll out fast and there's not as much maintenance and the tracks aren't getting thrown as much not as much wear and tear on them so it was great for quick reaction force and

so a lot of our missions were a logistical train or logistical movement would get a convoy would get hit by an IED and then we would go out and respond and that's how so my company lost we had one KIA and that's how it happened I wasn't on the mission

that ended up with that KIA but there was a response to an IED and that was their TTPs basically the enemy would hit the soft targets they would hit the Iraqi police

the Iraqi army they would hit the logistical convoys and a lot of our job was also route clearance so we're just driving up and down that stretch

of Tampa looking for I like kind of the old Polish minesweeper type of thing right like route clearance looking for IEDs by running over them. And guess who is the guy that the captain's like, hey, go kick that can to see what that is. It's a hotspot of my thermal. The lowest ranking youngest guy is the guy that they send out to go kick that. So a lot of our missions would be the blimp. The blimp with the thermal

would spot a hotspot and they would just roll QRF up at three in the morning, go check out that hot spot and sometimes I would walk right past an IED and my squad leader in front of me spotted it and he was like, Cappy, stop, that's an ID. And it just, I was just the luck of the dice. There wasn't, they're all command wire. So it just happened that the guy wasn't on the other end of the wire. Or he was waiting for a vehicle, not a person. Well, so we followed the wire. No one was there. What we think is that he was waiting for a problem. the next day. So when it was daylight out, they were probably going to come the next day. I got, I got lucky. So we didn't get hit on that. Just safari out into the, hey, go, what is it called?

Recon by Fire. Yeah. Yeah. So let me take a quick break to let folks out there know watching the show. If you'd like to support this podcast, check us out on Patreon. There's a link down in the description. You'll get access to all of these episodes ad-free, as well as our sister podcast, Eyes On, with Andy Milburn and Jason Lyons. And please also go check out, We Defy, the Lost Chapters of Special Forces History, available for pre-order now on Amazon.

This is my book, my history book that's coming out on December 9th. Go check it out, guys. I also want to give a shout out to our Tier 1 artist, Invigor Girl Art. Check her out on Instagram, check her out on Twitter. I promise you, not just a painting, she has prints, she has swag, badass t-shirts. She has a lot of stuff.

You will not be disappointed. And as our resident art expert. Yeah, we were just talking, I was asking about that. Yeah. But definitely check out Invader Girl Art. Yeah, Invadergirlart.com. So take us through the rest of that deployment. I mean, you had unfortunately, unfortunately, a casualty on that deployment.

But, I mean, what happened after that? That was very early in the tour we had. He got, he was shot in the head, and it was pretty instant. He returned fire. He was, I mean, he went, he, the thing that, he had two kids it was upsetting for the whole unit in the guard it's like everyone had been training together

they've been I believe they went to uh Kosovo deployment together like he they'd all known each other in civilian life and for years and years I was a a refill into the unit backfill like my whole

squad fourth squad heavy weapons we were considered like the kind of tag, spare parts army, thrown together guys who would been reclassed from combat engineers and from Cav Scouts to make up this infantry unit and just like, yeah, put them in fourth squad. The guys from New York and Massachusetts toss them in Fort Squad. They'll go there with the 240 Bravo's, make them carry that. And, you know, put the FO and the medic with them too.

And they'll be the medic of VAC vehicle. So my vehicle, whenever there was a casualty, we were the ones that would then have to drive them to, what was it, level three, trauma care that was at the fob? Because we had level one. So there's only so much you can do there. So when guys, the first time I saw somebody killed an action was an IED strike that happened right outside the base, woke us all up, boom, shook the whole base. Then I see them running in, dragging this Iraqi police officer. his brains are coming out the back of his head

and our medic who had been deployed before to Ramadi was like really high speed great type of medic that just lives for it and is very good at it his job and he he treated the guy

and then they would put him into our vehicle to drive him to the fob and I wasn't the CLS guy that was my buddy and he would do like the put the tube down the guy's throat, breathe for him. And that was early in the tour because, you know, they hit you early and then they hit you

before you go. And my deployment in general, I always say was kind of like, I was really the average infantryman. I wasn't a stellar soldier. I wasn't terrible. I was a regular grunt. And I wasn't doing the super squirrel missions. I wasn't out. you know i went on raids and kicked indoors but it wasn't i wasn't like s f i was the guy

guarding s f and i was really there during a weird point of the war where it was the occupation phase so we're not leading at this point the whole messaging of coin is out petraeus's theories on coin are really sticking and it was right after the surge so it's more how do we, you know, work by with and through our partners and how do we facilitate that? And if the mentality was we can't win this with bullets alone, it's the hearts and minds approach. So that's the part of the war that I'm really in. And I'm not, you know, going out there and mercant dudes left and right. My experience in Iraq is the occupation and the counterinsurgency phase. So what we're doing

is some of the missions are going out and handing out literal bags of $100,000 of cash. So we're giving that to the shakes so that they don't come and kill us. That was the chirp funding. And that was illegal as fuck with what you guys were. And actually FBI should be here in the 10 minutes. No, I'm just kidding. I did, yeah, no.

I kept a lot of the money myself. Don't worry. I think it's legal when I pocket it. It's not like to put it on you or just on your unit for sure, but when Congress authorizes funds for like reconstruction, it is specifically for that issue. And what happened was that units did exactly what you described is that they're paying off shakes to like, hey, don't blow up on unit. Yeah. Just another vignette in this global war on terror. So my picture, sorry, go ahead, go, please. I was just going to say, like, my perspective and picture on it as a E2 or three that I was,

yeah, two or three, I didn't make specialists until after the tour. So, like, my perspective, I don't see or I wish I had eyes into the whole. Yeah, this is the job. They're like, they're like, hey, we're going to hit, we're going to hit this house. Yeah. And you're going to do this. And I, like, have, the only thing I see is two feet in front of me. And that's the part of the reason why I love doing what I do in the YouTube channel is like talking more about four feet in front of me.

And what you're talking about is like, was that really a good idea? Was that good or bad? Because like I can understand the argument that we went in and we disbanded their military. And we had a maybe good in the short term, bad in the long term. Well, it's just we should have created some opportunities for these people. Like we go in and we disband their army and we basically were like, you have no way to make a living. and so when Iran and the Syrians come in and they say, and the Chechenans say, like, if you fire at the Americans,

we'll give you 200 bucks. So, you know, it's messed up because it's a huge waste of money and there's a ton of corruption and fraud that goes into that. Those shakes, they give how much of that, how much did they keep, because I saw their houses. Yeah. And I also saw the houses of the people that should have been getting, the farming money.

Indeed. Yeah. And so it's like, I don't know. I don't know. What do you do? Like, it's, it's fucked. I'd like to, I'd like for people to have some appreciation of what you guys were going through because both theaters had their own flavor. And then different areas had their own flavor.

And everybody had challenges, but the challenges were kind of unique sometimes to those areas. And Highway 1, you know, when you guys are going out, were the Iraqi cops rolling with you guys most of the time? Yes, it was almost always a joint patrol. So they were, were they, because that's, one of the things is, it's a highway, right? It is the main highway. So when you're out there, so is the rest of the Iraq population. Now, vehicle-borne IEDs with suicide bombers was a very big thing. And they had no problem driving right into a convoy and clacking off.

So it's a very stressful situation. You know, obviously probably the cops were you're out of perimeter and they would try and keep people back or whatever. But, you know, you have a car coming up and you have to make a decision, right? Your gunner, whoever's on there has to make a decision, do I shred this car? Is it a threat? They're not paying attention to the signs to say, stay 50 meters back or is it a family and the dude's not just not paying attention and they don't

because they don't like you make up your own rules in Iraqi traffic right yeah like it was a it's a very stressful situation you see a bag on the side of the road is that an iED like um you know it's it's one of those things where that that route that highway was a nightmare and if you guys are on that all the time and operating all the time. Like, you never get a chance to relax. Yeah, the base, our base was right on the highway. So between Tampa and the T-Wall is 10 feet. It's right there.

It's a former Iraqi police station, and there's a bunch of former bathist government buildings around there that there's all like J-DAM strikes into them from the invasion. part of the war that you see. Every building in Mushada is just shot to shit or collapsed roofs.

Tampa is and we were right at like a junction between Tampa and Tarmia which led to where the, not the Euphrates, what is it? What's the river? Maybe it is the Euphrates. The river is about 20 kilometers. So about, headed towards

that way was where our second was. So my tour, I split between Tampa and then the second cop, which was towards, I might get it wrong. I think it's the Euphrates River. So we set up another patrol base in between, basically, and this patrol base was, oh, my God. It's like, it made Musada look like luxury. A apocalypse now. Yeah, this patrol base was brand new setup. So we set up, the T-W-W-Mu-W-E. walls. We're burning our shit out there. We're getting one hot meal a day, which is rice that we cook in a pot. And we're sleeping in a chicken coop that has been gutted and we've got a bunch of like cots on the ground. Really roughing it out there. Yeah, right. Remote operating. So start to walk us through the conclusion of this deployment and redeployment back home. I have one more

question, if that's all right, during there. So you guys, doing a raid on a house is not something, at least in the day, I don't know if it changed due to the war, but it's not something that you learn in infantry AIT, right? That's all movement to contact. Or did you guys do compound type stuff in AIT? So by the time I went through boot camp in 2008, they're doing, you know, Baudrill 6. They're doing close quarters combat. Okay.

And raids are huge. Okay. So you guys didn't have to learn there on the ground. Not entirely. No. So when we were in the box during Mobop, we practiced raids. And, you know, because by the time 2008 happens, like post-surge, they know what we're going to be doing. They know what we're going in and hitting houses.

And raids to me are fascinating because it's, I don't, I want to say it's kind of a unique part of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan is these things that used to just be kind of an SF mission kind of get, you know. everybody has no how to do it yeah because and it's out of necessity out of just there isn't just enough bodies right and the the stress that they put on s f and the the pace that they worked them at it just started being like this should be done by s f really but since we don't have the manpower for it it's going to also be done by like reclassed artillery men so like i mean i feel like that's kind of what happened. It was like a backdoor draft almost where you got National Guard dudes because that was never really the idea for National Guard either was to be going and kicking indoors and making decisions that I feel like split second decisions like that you kind of want

them to be made by by S at least just like I'm talking off the top of my head but um those those are tough calls and and nothing is more stressful than a raid the first raid I went on was a freaking nightmare of cluster fuck because as a my view of the whole thing is just

they show you like a map kind of print out and they say the strikers are going to come here and they're going to drop you off here one of the good things about the strikers they're quiet compared to the Bradley's so less likely although the dogs will smell you from two miles away and they're barking already so

the ramp drops local dogs are barking so everyone knows you're there you get out of the vehicle and the first thing you see is your squad leader just yelling like, go this way, go this way. And so we just kind of like run through a backyard and then you get up into the way the buildings are in Iraq. It's kind of like a courtyard.

And the squad leader is saying, kick in that door. So he goes and you think in the movies that you just kick it and it's just smooth as fuck. It's choreographed. It's beautiful. Now he kicks it and he's like, damn it! that doesn't open.

And now you see, like, lights are turning her on. And on the second kick, he gets the door in. And so I'm, I think, like, the third guy in the stack. And we all go into the room, and you think it's going to be this, like, bad guys and this and that. And it's just, there's, like, kids. Yeah. And they're, and they're, like, crying. Yeah.

And you've got your mag light on, your fly, flashlight and you're yelling, get the fuck down. And really what you're doing is you're like, um, like separating kids from their parents and trying and then the, the, the, the MI guy that's attached to you is going in, doing the bats and hides and trying to look for the bomb maker. Uh, because that's what the raids were.

We were basically getting intel that like, there's a bomb maker here at this house. So we go in and then they tell us, after we've gotten like we've locked down the house and then they're like okay this was the wrong house but I'm pretty sure it's like that one over there so then we go we do it again we kick in the door

they find some guns they find the guy in the second house that we hit and it's just I want to say we're on the objective for like maybe what felt like 20 30 minutes and we got four dudes, blindfolded them,

put them in the back of our striker, went back to our little patrol base, and that's like, that's a raid. Would you pass them off to the Iraqi police at that point time? Dave, I have a funny story for you. There you go. I'm down. Okay. Yeah, we passed them off to the Iraqi police.

So they went back on the street the next day. No, please tell your story. Almost worse. Like, so. Like I said, we're doing the rotating through the different roles. One of the jobs that you do is CP, where you're just sitting there doing guard duty, basically, for the command outpost, the bottom of the stairs. That station, what you do for like eight-hour rotation, is right next to the Iraqi police officer's prison, where we would have the guys. So they were torturing them there for, like, eight hours.

you would hear them yelling and screaming, but it wasn't us doing it. It was the Iraqi police. And then, to your point, the weird part is we're also busloads of former insurgents are getting brought in the next day and then getting released. Because we're in the part of the war where it's like the drawdown phase. So they're bringing, as we're going and arresting guys, they're bringing in busloads of dudes that had been arrested before and then letting them go. And again, this is the what, so this, so I told you like that growing up I was very pro-Iraq war.

And now by the end of the tour, I'm starting to feel more weird about it. And not, I never felt like screw America or whatever. Like I'm going to throw my, you know, my uniform away and burn it or something. I'm proud of my service. But at the same time, I felt weird about, about, because, are we going to hold them indefinitely? Right. Because in war, you don't do that.

You don't just, if you're fighting an opposing force, you don't just hold them prisoner forever. Right. Like it's a criminal. Are you fighting? It just started to feel when you're hearing them being tortured. What are we doing here? Yeah.

And also seeing like bad guys back out on the street, it's like, what is the plan? Like, why don't we have a POW camp? Like, we've had him in, you know, other wars where he's an enemy prisoner of war. He sits the war out, you know, and, but it was just such a rotation there. And it's like, you know, going back year after years, like different leaders, different plans. But, but nobody really has a plan. So, yeah, start taking this through, like, the end of this deployment and getting back home.

Yeah. So the end of the tour, you know, I'm trying to think of how I just felt about like the last few months. And really, it's just you're counting the days and you're phrasing it as like, it's only 14 more days and a wake up. Yep. And when I get back home, the transition, when you're in the guard, the transition is kind of weird. Any transition is tough and weird. Whether you're active duty or going back to drill. one week and a month, it's going to be a shock.

And either way, more so for active duty guys. But even for Guard, it's weird in a different way because I'm one month, I'm in the sand. And then two, three months later, I'm back in college. And I'm feeling the culture shock of it. And I'm feeling the hypervigilance. I'm feeling on edge. I'm feeling the chip on my shoulder of like these students. are complaining about being up at seven in the morning for class.

Like, I had it so much harder. Right, right. And it took me a while to get over myself a little bit and realize, like, oh, I went and did that and I fought so that they can complain about these petty things. That's, ideally, people are complaining about petty things, and they're out at the mall. And ideally, we're not spending every moment thinking about or appreciating. people's service. Like that's what we're fighting for. I eventually had to frame it as in my mind.

And so the transition for me was difficult. I, you know, I went through a period of, I think a lot of people, you go through problems with drugs, problems with relationships. Were you still on the guard at this? Or were you out of the guard? Yeah, yeah. The first day I got back to Iraq at Fort Dix,

we fly in and my, well, somebody I really, somebody close to me gave me ecstasy the first day I was back and was like this will take away all your stress and your problems I'm 19

I'm not thinking about like this could also ruin any your benefits get you like this dishonorable zero tolerance policy screwed I was fortunate that they didn't drug test me but so just like years

period of my life where I'm just trying to find purpose again that would even come close to matching to what I felt like the purpose I had and the community that I had when I was in the Army. Yeah. So it's just, you know, I felt like I was drifting for years and years and not and feeling like, really, you know, feeling like they'll, I'll never do something that important again. Yeah. Based on what you're saying, you know, because you mentioned this, you know, active,

I would say, unless somebody comes right off a deployment on active duty and ETSs gets out of the military, I would say it's harder as National Guard, even though you're in the Guard, because you come back from a deployment. Active Duty, you come back from a deployment, and you've got the routine, you've got your family, and I mean your brothers, sisters, whatever. Like you've got your peer group, and they're also your support group. So you've got that, right? You come back off a combat deployment with a Guard, and you're just Johnny on the United. block again. You don't have all those, you know, you're not, you're not sitting in the barracks like bullshit and with your bros. So the only thing I think that compares with would compare

is if somebody came back from him to play an ETS right away. I think the guard has a much rougher time with that. So the way I look at it is like the guard, they have higher suicide rates because of things like that. Yeah. It's, I, I think active duty, I would never, it's hard to compare the two. It's active duty has it so hard in a different way. But yeah, you're right. Like that's a, they specifically tell people in the guard to not for that reason. Yeah, but the thing about National Guard guys is they have a life outside of the military.

But they, by nature. But you've been gone for a year or so. Yeah. Now you're coming back trying to reconnect to that life and it's not easy. There's high suicide rates for that reason. Yeah. It's like, yeah, the active duty has their own. struggles because they've got like 20 years under the belt of just dealing with that bullshit.

Yeah. It's something that I think a lot of people didn't plan for because the guard was never supposed to be or really wasn't supposed to be used in that way. And it's something that I find interesting. I've researched kind of like the way the military, the different federalizes the guard. Yeah, the different kind of backdoor ways they avoided having to do a draft to. to support the war in Iraq. It was like contractors.

People don't know that it was something like, you know, 15,000 or whatever it was, contractors that got killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. It was basically they just found ways to not have to make the American public feel the pressure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, everybody in the bureaucracy, the administrations, and the military leadership were great at lying during the GWAT. you know they lied to themselves they lied to each other so yeah um yeah so so how how so you're back in art school like how are you doing i know you mentioned drugs and and you know just kind of this

dark phase how are you dealing with all this like what's what's your life like now for a long time not now now but yeah then at the time you know i i went to broken college went back to my studies went back to doing film again and transferred from Brooklyn College to NYU, finished my studies did at film school there and from there

I got very lucky, got to go work at the Daily Show with John Stewart which a lot of people don't know this but John Stewart is huge fan or huge like advocate for the military tremendous. And the 9-11 workers

Yeah, he did a lot of work on the burn pit stuff. Yep, yeah. That he went and visited a ton. Anytime somebody got wounded, he went and visited all those dudes that got wounded at Walter Reed. My buddy, who, after my tour went to Afghanistan, his friend got shot up while he was there. John Stewart went, spent time with him.

Like, the guy, definitely the only reason they hired me was because I was a veteran. but just what like an amazing experience getting to work there and so that kind of started me on I learned there how to like turn out episodic contact content that was like how do you keep the quality while keeping the pace

how do you mix in jokes with education and I you know I didn't agree with a lot of what he said but amazing boss and amazing believes in what he says and just incredible team that he had. I'm curious, how many more years of college did you have

when you came back for your appointment? Three. How like how was that for you? Like, relating to the students, relating to teachers. I'm very curious about that. Yeah. Because you just got dropped into it, right? Like, there were times

when there was a lot of students that you're getting, you're getting very much given books on communism and I'm not, Like, this is just straight up. You don't say. We're going to learn about American history through the lens of communism. It's like, I'm as I'm saying, wait, why are, okay, I get critical lens theory, but this seems like unless, you know, unless you're really familiar with the material and the history already, you could very easily through critical lens misunderstand and just look at it like, yeah, wait a second, what is America?

Why are, it's revisionist history. Right. Yes. Yeah. And we see that now. Like it's a very public opinion. But I think critical theory is great once you understood the classics and you've really read all of it and you understood it. Right.

And you get why what we have is the best system ever. Right. Like, at least I think that. Yeah. Then, okay, let's try to deconstruct it so we can make it better. But unless you have that foundation, which I didn't and most people don't, you're just left with this feeling of. were subverting and trying to tear apart this thing, and you're like, you start to question your own existence

and your own, like, I don't know, I found college to be frustrating. I would frequently butt heads with students, and fortunately I was still at a time when they wouldn't, you know, pull out the red card and say, you know, we're going to tell on you. Right. which I hear that they're doing now.

But yeah, I didn't get along and I felt like an outsider. And it was a little bit my own fault for not handling it better. But I got through it. I finished it. Yeah, I mean, I just want to point out that that was a good experience for those students to be in that class with you. And to hear a different person. And it doesn't mean they're right and you're wrong or you're right. No, no, no, you were right.

but the communism sucks it's an important it's an important experience sure for them and for you too did they know your veteran status I would make people cry yeah they would I would they would cry from what I was just saying

you probably shouldn't have made them cry but but I wasn't making them cry I was like I was just saying you were just saying I was just saying like yeah I was never I would just say you're having a contrary point of view yes yeah and that would make them cry alone but yeah you're you're right and like i'm glad that i had that experience it's rough it's rough that

so many people but you love america after you interrogated the topic yeah right i saw the worst part of it yeah yeah i feel like the iraq war is one of the it's not it's not blind patriotism it's it's a like that's you see the failings yes and yet i still feel like we have the best system and you know communism at this this point. Little passe. Yeah, no, everyone already knows that, like, even the communist countries have adopted capitalism.

Yeah. Yeah, like, that's no long, the argument now, I feel like, is more about is authoritarian systems or is democratic systems more effective? And it's like, there's an argument there. Let's have that argument. Okay, valid. But so these students, it was frustrate me because, like, postmodernism is just so much of it in, like, NYU.

It's everywhere. It's just, it's like people are saying, why are we wearing suits? Isn't that just like kind of why even, you know? And I just don't even have the weaponry to articulate. And it's a good thought experiment. Why? Yeah. But I'll tell you that at the time, that's where everyone's head was at there, which I'm glad that.

And it's about 2009, 2008, 2009. 2009, 2010. Also, I mean, even from their own doctrine, it's a bit superficial to talk about the clothing, the cooking. But I don't think many of them actually know their doctrine. Like, they pick up the pieces. That's where it comes from. The pieces of it and then go after whatever, like,

the three-meter target is a lot of times. It was, you know, so to answer your question of, like, When I knew that I was heading in the right direction was when I went to Starbucks one morning and I ordered, it was like a frappuccino with Grande. And they forgot my whipped cream and I was upset. And I was like, you gave them a piece of your mind? I did. I was like, excuse me, you didn't put the sugar in my frapp-a-moca, whatever. the hell and I realized I was like oh I'm I can be upset about petty things again right and it's

it was right you can be you can be you can have first world problems yes you can have first and it was amazing yeah I was like okay I get it now like there I get that I shouldn't walk around with this chip on my shoulder and feel like I'm different than everyone else and like be a little bit. In a way, I was acting like a victim in a way. Yeah. And victim mentality, I feel like is the worst thing. And it's like self-indulging.

Yes. You get in a loop. Yeah. It's really, it's ma'a. It's masturbatory. You're just like getting off on how hard you have. Right. Or whatever.

Yeah. And it's self-destructive. And you know how I know it was self-destructive is because living that out, I was leading to just like shittier and shittier relationships and my life was, it just wasn't leading to better outcomes. Yeah. So that's how I knew that when I realized that,

oh, I can, you know, not be so self-indulgent, things were starting to get better for me. Did the teacher, or not the teachers, well, the teachers, professors, whatever, but did the students know that you were a vet? Did they know? And did, and how, did, I'm curious how

Especially in New York Because I've had some experiences in New York Where I felt like people were actually afraid of me Because they still think the Post-traumatic stress is like the 1970s Made for TV movie that Do Go Postal Did you

Like what was your experience With them knowing you were a vet Yeah everybody knew that I was a veteran Because I didn't let anybody not know Yeah Like that was my That was my personality for a while.

How can it not be? Yeah. It's like such a huge part of your life. You're 19, that's, you know, a pretty big fraction of your adult life. And not a peacetime veteran either. You would just come back from a life-changing event. Yeah. So I talked about it.

And, you know, I let people know. Look, I'm an Iraq veteran. That's what makes me special. Yeah, right. That's like, yeah, that's my thing. That's how I get laid in New York City for a while. Really? That worked?

Oh, yeah, yeah, because you're like, you're a little bit different. Yeah. And, you know, you went over there? It's to some people. Sure. Sure. To enough people, I guess. Yeah.

So we're, we're, I'm sure that there are, because obviously there's not a monolithic student. but did you find that they were open to it, resistant to it? Did they judge you positively, negatively? Do they seek your wisdom, your guidance, your counsel? They call you baby killer? No, I butted heads with some people about it, but I was still trying to figure out how I've even felt about it at the time.

Most people, really, God bless these students, because, you know, coming back from the Vietnam War, I'm sure a lot of those guys are getting told whether they're being called baby killers or whatever, they had it a hell of a lot worse than me, which a lot of people at least go through the charade of, I know thank you for your service has been given a whole, like, I don't want to hear it, but I love it in terms of, like,

because whenever I meet cops, I realize that a lot of times I ask them uncomfortable questions, and I realize I'm like, oh, wait, I'm doing the same thing to this cop that, like, I didn't want. But really what it is is just people are trying, they're stumbling through. Yeah, these kids have no frame of reference. Right.

So give them a little bit of leeway. Not just kids, but adult. Right. And nobody, if they haven't served, they don't know. Give them the benefit of the doubt. If they ask you if you killed anybody, don't be like, don't ask me. Just, like, they're trying to get to know you.

And they're stumbling through doing it perfectly and so I try especially now to like let people be bad at talking about this you know let them like yeah yeah yeah be awkward it's kind of incumbent especially what what all of us do today it's a kind of incumbent on us to tell that story and give them some grace you know give them some grace because these yes I always you know like there are the three standard questions uh like were you in combat, yes, did you ever kill anybody? How did you get over it? You know, and I feel like, I feel like

I see it coming a mile away when somebody, because there is that timidity or, you know, they're kind of shy it up, but they really want to know because it's an experience so far outside of anything they've ever known. Yeah. Yeah. They're just, that's, you're right.

Like, they're just trying to learn more about them. Yeah. So help them learn more about, redirect the question if you want. Redirect it to a question you want to answer. Maybe they saw a couple movies and like that's the extent of... Yeah, absolutely. And that's a huge part of the YouTube channel now that I do

is trying to bridge that gap between the civilian and the military and give the, like you said, give people the grace, give them the leeway and like the slack to ask stupid questions. Yeah. You know, it's funny because you mentioned like the Vietnam vets, And I feel like there is so much, like, generational shame for the way they were treated that people were almost, people were afraid to say anything, like, derogatory about service members. They might say, I don't like the war, but I respect you because because I don't want to be the civilian, you know, spitting on a Vietnam vet.

Yeah, which is, to me, it's ironic because, like, if you're going to hate you. somebody you actually should hate the Iraq, Afghanistan veterans, because we all volunteered to go do that shit. Whereas, like, a good portion of the Vietnam veterans got drafted. Right. So, like, if you're going to hate somebody, you actually should hate me. Yeah. Because I volunteered and, like, full well knowing what I was, if anyone's guilty, it's me. Yeah.

And, you know, I mean, going out there and using babies as target practice when we didn't have, you know. Yeah. Why did we do that? Yeah. I think one of the things that people find interesting, because you guys, you worked with the Iraqi police. Yeah. And like there's this idea, oh, out there killing Brown people.

I'm like, no, we were like working next to them trying to help them rebuild their country. Yeah, that's how I wrote my, that's why they took me into NYU. I wrote that was my essay. It was like, we worked that my, my greatest ally was the Iraqis. Yeah. Like, I have nothing but respect for the Iraqis. Yeah. They wanted a better life for themselves.

and they're people. Like, our interpreter, his name was Fox. He now lives in America. And what an amazing dude. I did a tour. He did six years as an interpreter. He didn't get to go home. No.

He was home. Right. Yeah, like on the weekends or whatever. And he had to worry about like getting dimed out, getting tortured, getting rolled up. Right. So he went by Fox. Fox wasn't his name.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And now God bless that they did a lot of work to get him to the States. But, yeah, the Iraqi people, you know, they weren't my enemy. So mentally, when does it start? I know you mentioned the I can have first world problems again. But when does sort of the burden of the war start to lift or does it?

Like, how does that? I had hypervigilance problems for a long time. I, you know, I tried to fill the void with. with drugs and alcohol, and it wasn't because, like, I killed people or I, uh, you know, saw my friend die. It was because you're on edge for a year and you're, you're, you're living in this, you might get killed. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, so it took me a long time to get over myself. It took me a long time to basically the most important thing is just finding that sense of purpose again. You know,

it's very hard, I think, for veterans. to replace something as just monumental as being a part of that. How do you again feel like your purpose is remotely as important? You have to find a mission, whether it's your kids, your wife, whatever it is. You have to have a purpose, I learned. And I know that's cliche, but it needs to be said again and again and again. Yeah. You know, because that really is, there's no transition.

reinvention, right? That you have to find something new. What was that for you? Like, how did that start to come about where you sort of found your way in the civilian sector? 100% task and purpose. Yeah. I was a absolute, just

madman until the YouTube channel, until I started getting to interact with the viewers and put out when the video, I did the video, I would I don't care if 300 people are watching. When 300 people were watching, I was stoked.

I was excited. That was amazing. 300 people were watching the videos. So you had your film background and then you apply for this job at task and purpose. That's why I applied. So I did marketing for years for Cisco and IBM. And I was doing tons of videos for them, marketing, messaging. And like, just for the top technology companies in the States,

creating their marketing videos for, like, all of their biggest products for IBM and Cisco for years after I left the Daily Show. And I felt empty because... So you're still going through it years later. Oh, yeah. Through Cisco and IBM? I can say this now, but like I was a total drug addict and just madman through my years of creating marketing videos for some of the biggest companies in the United States, like doing interviewing their C-suite, doing all their biggest product launches, doing marketing for them. And I felt so empty inside because like I just, I just I didn't have much control over what I was saying.

IBM is a tremendous brand. You cannot be the voice of IBM, really. So when I saw this ad advertisement for due task and purpose, like a huge pay cut to go work for TMP to do whatever. You were merging film in your military background. That's why when I saw that advertisement, I was like, oh, my God, this is a match made in heaven. I can use my film skills and I can also marry it with this, my military background.

And I'd spent many years not wanting to talk about the military, not, I had never, for years. Like, I was the guy that, I one time my squad leader asked me, what's the name of the grenade launcher on top of the striker? And I blanked. And he was like, it's Mark 19, you idiot, start pushing. And I didn't, so like I wasn't the guy that was obsessed with military equipment. but when I started working for TMP and I realized I love this stuff like I love the maximum

effective range of a weapon I want to memorize that now like and there were guys that had the Ranger Handbook and had that memorized but once I started working for TMP was really when like I felt like I had a real purpose again because I was of service again

and it didn't start off that way like I was hired there as just an editor and I was putting together news hits of just B-roll and not even my voice. It was just like a text and B-roll put together for their Facebook channel. And I said to them, I said, hey, we should do some YouTube stuff. This thing is people are doing stuff on YouTube. And they were, it was like startup phase.

So they were like, do whatever the hell you want. So I hated being in front of the camera. I hated it. It didn't want to do it. But I was like, I'll try it. And when I started, I was terrible at it. It was so bad. So I couldn't read.

I couldn't, I was trying to memorize everything. Where was this that you started? 2018 or 19. Okay. It was like right before the pandemic. And I was, you want to know how bad it was. I was doing everything as a joke. I was doing everything.

So I was doing like a. Tongue and cheek. Yes. Super tongue and cheek about so satirical. Yeah. I was so funny and like it was going to be, you know, I was just doing something on the and somebody commented on one of the videos and I'll never forget this comment because it changed my life, they said, why don't you tell me something useful about the striker?

Why don't you tell me something about like the striker versus the BTR? And no one's thinking about the BTR back in 2018 because this was before the war in Ukraine. So, but I took the comment to heart. Some value added. Yeah. Right. And so instead of just doing like jokes and just like satirical, why don't I go and look up some information and like present it in a, digestible format and just like

swallow my pride a little bit and not do just what makes me happy and do what is of value to someone else and lo and behold when you're of service to other people who knew that like that

then just had some kind of reaction and so we went from 300 views per episode to 2,000 views and then 2,000 views to 50.

We start talking about the XM7 rifle because what I did was when I was on Guard Tower Duty, me and the guys, we would just kind of like bullshit about you hear about this new rifle, like a 6-8 millimeter? I don't know, 6-8 millimeters. That sounds kind of stupid. You know, or you sit there in Guard Towder Duty

and you start to talk about like, who you think win like Israel the IDF or the or the 10th I or the 10th mountain division and it's just these kind of hypodics you know what I'm talking about? You just bullshit yeah yeah you just kind of this is what infantrymen talk about yeah you just you have these hypothetical conversations

so I started kind of putting those into a format and people started commenting and the comments felt like purpose. It felt like there are people out there that are getting something out of this and I felt like I was being useful

and I felt like I had a reason to live again. Yeah. How long did you stay in the guard after you came back from your deployment? About three years. I got out briefly in... So I did a hurt

two domestic missions. in New York City. Did Hurricane Irene and then Sandy. And Sandy was, oh, my God, what a mess. Like, counter people doing looting. Yeah. I was at, what was that hospital on the east side on 33rd with the site patient? Bellevue.

Yeah. Yeah. So me and the Marine reserves were in Bellevue when it got flooded for Sandy. And we're like bringing up. gasoline as they're doing heart surgery on the 14th floor. Because the bottom generator, yeah, Sandy was... Everything like below 59th Street, the power got knocked out. Yeah.

So I stayed in the guard for another... I did a total of like five years in the guard. So I stayed in longer because I loved it. And I thought I wanted to deploy again. Yeah. But the newer guard ended up getting their deployment canceled. So I stayed in for a total of like at least another three or four years afterwards. When you were going to those drills and things, was that like a reprieve for you?

Was that because you're around the guys again? Or was it bad because we're just doing a drill and it's not Iraq? The best thing about the guard staying in it through that period was I didn't smoke weed. Like you can't smoke weed. I did, I'll be honest. I did the harder stuff because it only stays in your system for three days. But, you know, New York Guard had a zero tolerance policy. You're getting a dishonorable or if I'm wrong, whatever the, you're losing your benefits.

Like, you're pretty screwed if you pop hot. So I didn't smoke weed. It kept me, it kept me with the guys. It kept me with the squad, that sense of community. And doing the domestic missions was still a part of my life. Yeah. So, yeah, I did that up. I think I got out in 2015-14, 2015 or 14.

So during that time, it was still a good touchstone for you to kind of balance that, everything else going on. It was good to get drug tested once a week, or once a month. Yeah. It was good to, like, stay some kind of honest throughout living in New York City for that time period. Yeah. Yeah. So you get out and you're transitioning into this video job full time, right?

Like three years later, right? About, yeah, about three years later. Okay. After working for IBM and Cisco, then at TNP, and it starts to blow up. It starts to just get, like, I still feel weird about it because I've never been the type of person. Now, it's so nice where sometimes I'll go to a shooting range in, like, Florida, and someone will walk up to me and be like, Hey, do you host the task and purpose show? And it's the nicest thing ever.

It's like it's, it feels like meeting a family member that you haven't seen in years. And you kind of have a connection. It's just, it feels really great. Well, you guys have, like your channel, I mean, your episodes I saw somewhere like 600,000. Like, I'm sure you have bigger numbers than that. I mean, you are famous. to a segment of Internet famous

Yes To a segment That's the distinction But you are like If there are like a million people out there From all the countries, whatever A million, two million people out there Who know who you are

That's not nothing My uncle doesn't Know what I do And there is a Being internet famous is is like being not famous. And I, I, the thing I like just about it is that it's, I feel like if you're like famous, famous,

then a lot of people who, like, anybody comes up to you. Right. But if you're internet famous, the people that come up to you are the people, they're your people. Yeah. They're the people that, like, you want. Yeah. They're the people that you would love to hear from.

Yeah. And they're the people that are going to come up and ask you about, like, what do you think about the 5-5-6? versus the 6-8-5-51. Is it really a good idea? It's the nerds that, like, that's my people. That's my team. Yeah.

So... What is your chief demographic, do you know? So we're now at 1.7 million subscribers, and there's a significant portion of that is the American audience, big, also European audience, and Southeast. Asian audience as well. People from all over the world, people that are concerned about what's happening with China and Taiwan, people in the Philippines that are concerned about what's happening with their country and their

borders and their economic exclusive zone. There's also people in Poland and in the United Kingdom who are worried about, you know, like if you're in the United Kingdom, imagine, I might get this far as, if you're France, imagine if in Florida there was an invasion happening right now that's like the same distance between the border of France and the border of Ukraine

about that same distance like you could drive that to Florida from if you're in New York so a lot of people yeah all over the world who are concerned about different things that that I find fascinating

I think in America in the Western an audience, we reasonably so, don't worry about what's happening around the world because we kind of don't have to. We have that remove. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But,

yeah, there's it's been, amazing. Are there milestones or events that, you know, like, really stand out for you? Yeah. So when I started talking about the NGSW Next Generation Squad weapon that's replacing the M4

and that was the first viral video when I started talking about that because that's something we used to talk about in the guard towers and then Sig Sauer reached out to me and I got to be the first civilian to go and test fire that got to go and test fire

the true velocity with a polymer cased ammo which I fell in love with that was really sick you got to test fire these weapons got to learn about like procurement what even is the The idea behind it is that the ammunition is lighter, right?

So for true velocity, their value add is that the ammunition is about 30% or I might get it wrong, but like it's lighter than brass casing. So you can carry more of it. Right, right. But at the same time, it's the same high-powered weapon. So they're testing that with SF guys and firing off basically what's, Because the advances in polymer technology and in manufacturing for polymer casings is you could now have, instead of a brass casing, polymer cased ammo, which is fascinating. There's a whole thing that goes into it about it kind of overheat.

It's interesting, too, with the concept of like green ammunition that there have been a couple, I think there have been a couple different efforts to replace lead in the bullets with something that is quote unquote, green, but they haven't been able to find something that's as consistent. I thought they did it. I thought graphite. I don't think our bullets are made of lead anymore. I think it's graphite. Really? So they replaced, I might be wrong, but my understanding is that they replaced all, we could look it up, but I believe they replaced a lot of it with graphite. Yeah, you could be right.

Because of exactly what you're talking. It's not just, so a lot, the thing that's funny about, like, the, environmental concerns is environmental a lot of time aligns with economic concerns. And I think you would find... Shocking. Yeah, right. Anytime the defense industry, I have a theory. I'm going to go on record. Say that I have a theory that any time that an environmental concern you hear from the military industrial complex probably also aligns with an economic concern. I don't think that's so far. out of the field. So

to bullshit and like do some game theory here like you know we were always sold on the idea the 556 7662 it's a natal round so everybody has it

so if a big war pops off logistics procurement you know supply like it's not an issue do you feel that with these new rounds coming online and stuff like that

that they still have that manufacturing capability to back up a, you know, is this something that NATO might move to eventually? Do you think that they had the manufacturing capability to back up a major push somewhere? Lake City, Utah is where they produce about 5 billion rounds of 5, 5, 5, 6 a year, and SIG is now moving to produce more of the 6-8 ammo at scale. and they're creating new manufacturing processes in Jacksonville. Oh, God, where's Jacksonville? Is that Kentucky? But they're setting up new plants to basically start to produce at scale the 6-8.

And so I want to tell you about some feedback that I got from the guys on the ground. I put out a video recently about the 6-8 and the feedback from the soldiers. And it's fascinating in that, so the P-A-O's, they published this guy they gave out the 6-8 NGSW to a bunch of troops test fired it the PAOs are the ones

that are kind of the gatekeepers of the feedback they published in Army Times military dot com bunch of other bunch of publications all of the positive feedback about how blasts through cinder blocks

and the troops love it for the X, Y, and Z I published this video and then I get a bunch, you could look it up, I get a bunch of hate from a couple of dudes who are like, why did you cherry pick my quotes? Why did you only mention the positive things that I said? And I'm like, dude, I'm only open source. I only look at what the PAO's published,

what only the military.com and stars and stripes and all these publications get access to. So somewhere along the line, their negative feedback was interesting shocking if you look on Reddit this one soldier has a ton of negative

feedback and he was pissed at me and understandably shocking here the public affairs is just putting out army propaganda I can't believe it who knew and in my video I mentioned the same thing I'm like I got the I got the 320 320 grenade launcher and I was like this thing's a piece of garbage but I doubt that Army Times or whoever.

Yeah, yeah, but you read like the stories and, yeah, in the Army Times like, this is a game changer. This changes everything. And I don't need to dump on like any publication, but all I'm saying, because I don't really don't think it's Army Times or whoever. I just think that it's like the PAOs.

That control. Right. Because the Army Times are only getting quotes from the PAOs. So basically the Public Affairs officer is only publishing the positive, the one line that this guy was like it's fucking suck

it's amazing at this thing right and he was rightfully pissed at me for parading this quote without digging deeper right

and so okay here's what I think XM7 soldiers love that has extra range extra firepower but they hate

that it's a pain to maintenance it's a pain in terms of recoil and in terms of weight. So, but you're not going to read that in Stars and Stripes. You know, PAO is never going to let that go through. And of course, like, if you look at the M16, the teething problems that it had,

they kind of like swept that under a rug, but the M16 worked out. Yeah. So it's tough. It's tough. Yeah, yeah. It's one of these things like the M16 is a good example. Uh, right now, also the V-Tol vertical takeoff and landing, uh, with the Osprey. It's like, are these technologies that are to pay dividends in the decades to come. You know, right now it might be kind of a shitty capability, but 10 years, 20 years from now, like, it actually is a game changer. It actually does change things in the wars of the future. Hopefully.

What would you think about the 5-5-6? Do you like, or how do you feel about the 6-8 by 51? I have some boomer views about this stuff. I mean, I think the 762 is kind of where it's. at for a rifle. I'm not a huge 5-5-6 guy. But on the other hand, 5-5-6, there is a lot to be said for it. It's lighter, so you can carry more of it. It has been great for the types of wars we've been in the last 20 years, you know, CQB, not just the round, but also the platform, the M-16 platform. It's been great for that type of fighting. But at range, I think you might want a little bit

something more than the 5-5-6. But then there are all sorts of like arguments and counter-arguments about like is the rifling in the barrel over-accuritizing the round, is the round moving too fast for what we're trying to accomplish? Like, yeah, you're getting range, but it's not doing the type of damage when it enters the body. Like it's just zipping through with minimal tissue damage. There's all these different arguments.

but yeah, I'm more of a 7-6-2, and maybe 6.5 is the compromise. Let me ask you another question. So if I'm not mistaken, you did some sniper work. Yeah. So what are your thoughts on training an average infantryman to shoot out to 800 meters or 600 meters? Is that reasonable?

No, I don't think so. I think 600 is. I think that it's completely possible, but that is advanced marksmanship training. It takes some time. And absolutely, I think that you could take any infantrymen and get him to that point, but that takes advanced training beyond what we can teach in basic training. Even with the XM 157 scope, like no matter what scope you get. So I feel like you're absolutely right that even if you give them this like insane computerized scope,

the fundamentals of shooting in terms of like in terms of like trigger squeeze uh heart rate um and breathing i don't care how good of a scope you give if you give the right scope to somebody who understands those fundamentals because i'm somebody who's not a great shot but like you're you've done sniper school and all that if you give an infantryman who doesn't understand those fundamentals like a sick scope? Are they going to be able to hit? I totally believe you can get them there. I think that you can train them to do like dual breach, multiple team CQB on a house. Like you can get them there, but it takes additional time and training. And the question is always, is the Army willing to invest that? Is the Army going to, are you talking about, when you said infantrymen,

are you talking about every infantryman coming out of AIT? Dude. Dave, Dave, I'm talking about every infantrymen coming at every swinging day every swinging dick not even like so snipers we don't like to talk about this but like there's a lot there's a lot of dummies that are in 11 brava

there are like there's also a lot of incompetent troops there's a certain amount of infantrymen who can be snipers who can hit targets at 800 meters the army I feel like is hedging their bet that like

the XM15 is going to let, so the ACOG, for instance, let people who have no business hitting targets 400. As Americans, we love technological solutions. We absolutely love technology. So I'm going to approach this actually from a different angle because the Marine Corps boot camp is four weeks longer than the armies. But the Marine Corps does, because I went through both Army. me and Marine Corps boot camp. And the Marine Corps does marksmanship right.

You spend a shit ton of time snapping in, which is just learning the formations for your slings and sitting in front of a barrel and dry fire, you know. And I think if you wanted to have that capability of consistently, not everybody, because some guys were just bad shots. They just are. But teaching the proper fundamentals, I think you can do that in four weeks where with the right platform,

the right scope, stuff like that. And again, we're not talking about calling wins or anything else like that, right? On a perfectly still day, I don't know about it. I mean, what's the MOA for the rifle and round? So this was the, other thing.

This was the other thing that people... So this guy got so pissed at me for publishing this video and I told, I get it. I get it, man. So he... So the M-O-A for the XM-7 is between a three and a four.

Well, no. Now then you're not gonna hit a 600. But he said, he also said he was like, a lot of times it's a 1.8. So the way he said it was that the M-O-A was a 1.8, but sometimes it'll... throw a random shot, it'll just throw it.

Because the PSI on the thing is 80,000. So he would, he said that every, like, third or fourth shot, this is just, he said he, he, um, qualified it by saying that,

like, he's not an amazing shot and his buddy was shooting like a 2.8, but that occasionally he would see a shot thrown at like three or four M.A. Um, which the M4 is a, a four MOA weapon. And the XM. seven supposedly

between like I know this is a big range but between 1.8 and 3. So for people who might not be aware of the terminology MAA is a minute of angle and it's one inch right one inch or one inch for every hundred yards yeah yeah one inch for every hundred yards

of accuracy so if you shoot 100 yards you're around based on that that round and that rifle combination is going it'll have a one inch spread of where you may hit. Yeah, it's a cone that is opening up the further you get.

Yeah. Yeah. So one inch at 100 meters, two inches at 200 meters and so on. So a four M-O-A, four minutes of angle would be four inches at 100, right? That's kind of unsat. Yeah. And then, yeah. And then eight inches at 200.

And then we start, yeah. He says it's like a 1.8. A 1.8. Between a 1.8, 2.8. And then also there's like a random throw. So here's the thing. It's interesting because the M16 was a piece of garbage when it first came out, right? Total trash.

But then over the decades became a really like refined weapon. So it's tough to tell. Are they refining it? Is this the teething problems? It's really tough to tell. I mean, and then like even on the like the M4 platform where you start getting, you know, different upper, you start getting different things that, because you can hit 600 with an M4.

So I don't know. Do we have questions for Mr. Chris here? Are there a lot of, in your opinion, are there a lot of parts of this gun that can be improved? The way I would look at the XM7 is that it's a platform, it's a system, and it's also a bet on what the future of the future war is going to look like. So what we all experienced in GWAT is very different than what the near-peer war is going to be. The army is betting that we're not going to be kicking indoors and yelling at kids saying, get down, get down.

That's not the future of war. The future of war against China and Russia is that building has already been flattened. And that you're not doing CQB. You're in combat. Right. and your standoff is your advantage and your overmatch. You might be outnumbered, but you can see not only with drones, drone warfare is going to allow you to identify targets way further out.

So now your platoon through your little drone that you shoot up sees that the enemy is 800 meters away. And now because of that, you can engage the enemy for 300 meters before they can even engage you. Yeah. That's the idea. They're making a bet, I think. And if they fully adopt the XM7, it becomes the M7 and it's fully adopted 200,000

rifles, if that happens, the Army believes that that bet is worth it, and that that's what the future of warfare is going to look like. They might be wrong, they might be right, whatever, I don't know, but that's what they think. And I think a lot of people forget

that it's not just the XM7, it's the XM-250. XM 250 is 4 or 5 pounds lighter than the saw has a minute of angle that's easily you know it's a 3 minute of angle

versus the saw is like a 12 or something minute of angle I don't know 6 it's like this it's not just a rifle it's also a whole squad so to me the NGSW program is about betting on the future of warfare

more than just a rifle. It's a system. So do you think that when these, because PAOs are getting their marching orders from somewhere, right? Do you think that it's that, that they just want to give this? Because I don't know, I'd get kind of cynical about the government sometimes. I'm like, okay, who has the contract that's trying to butter this up? But do you think it's just more a matter of wanting to give this time to breathe? There's billions of dollars on the line. We can't pretend.

Yeah. We can't pretend like there isn't. billions of dollars on the line. Yeah. Look at where these CGs retire to and what boards of directors that they get on board with afterwards. Yeah. You don't end up with the UCP camouflage pattern for no reason. Like you don't end up with a gray, weird camo pattern instead of like, multicam is amazing now. But how do we end up with that?

This week that they're talking about replacing the Army PT uniform. Yeah. Like there should be a department of a new. justice investigation on the Department of Defense and these uniform changes that they make every year and a half, two years. Like, it is straight up criminal negligence. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's always the balancing act between the military industrial complex is a real thing. And also, there's real threats to us. So it's like, you always got to balance.