The Team House - Infiltrating Motorcycle Gangs as an Undercover ATF Agent | Frank D'Alesio | Ep. 222

Episode Date: July 24, 2023

Frank retired from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (ATF) in 2014, which is part of the U.S. Department of Justice, after 25 years of service. The majority of his career was as a Supervisory Special Agent (GS-14). His primary duties were in relation to complex investigations to include undercover operations. He conducted three separate infiltrations of his own into three Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs (Brothers, MC, Vagos MC and an Aryan Brother motorcycle club know as the Order of Blood MC). He also worked alongside other agents in an undercover capacity supporting those who were infiltrating the Outlaws MC, Hells Angels MC, Pagans MC and Warlocks MC both as a field agent and supervisor. He coordinated many efforts with other federal, state local and foreign law enforcement partners. He helped to develop and later served as the Special Agent in Charge of the Undercover Branch in Washington DC for approximately three years. He served as an Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force Coordinator (OCDETF) for the Southeast Region of the United States, as a Group Supervisor (GS) for the High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area (HIDTA) in Dallas, TX and as a GS in Youngstown, OH for the ATF Columbus Field Division/Field Operations. He served on the USSOCOM training advisory board for Signature Reduction for approximately five years. He also served two years as the Vice Chair for the Federal Law Enforcement Agencies Domestic Working Group as it relates to cover. He served for three years as the DoD/DIA Liaison Officer for ATF working with the Special Mission Units and other Special Operations Forces in regards to Signature Reduction and overseas operations. He developed law enforcement support for the SOF community for their various training venues within the continental United States for over ten years. He earned his Bachelor of Science degree in Criminal Justice from Youngstown State University in 1988 and graduated with honors Magna Cum Laude. https://www.blackrivertobacco.com/ Today's Sponsors: Ree Medical ⬇️ https://www.REEmedical.com/teamhouse Need accurate medical evidence that can maximize your VA benefits? REE Medical and their team of specialists are passionate and experienced about helping Veterans. Find out how they can help you at https://www.REEmedical.com/teamhouse Augusta Precious Metals⬇️ https://www.augustapreciousmetals.com/ Learn why thousands of Americans are getting gold IRAs as part of their retirement portfolios. You need to contact Augusta Precious Metals and get their free guide!  Text "TEAM" to 68592 or go to https://www.augustapreciousmetals.com/ To help support the show and for all bonus content including: -AD FREE AUDIO -AD FREE VIDEO -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Team House merch: ⬇️ https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963 Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter:  https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Dave’s Twitter:  https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: ⬇️ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️  https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️  https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample Want to sponsor the show? Email: ⬇️ [e-mail] #undercover #atfBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Hey, folks, I just want to take a minute to ask you to go in rate this podcast, let the Team House know how you think we're doing, go and rate us on whatever platform you're listening to this on, whether it's iTunes or Spotify or whatever else. Those ratings really help us out, and we really appreciate the feedback to let us know what you like and what you don't like. And if you do like the Team House and you'd like to support us, go check out our Patreon page and you can actually support the stream and well as get access to our team house. the team house and you'd like to support us, go check out our Patreon page and you can actually support the stream and well as get access to our bonus segments and bonus episodes. Yeah, if you're going to give us a great review, please do. And if you're going to give us a not so good review, why don't you just send us an email and we'll talk about it. Special Operations, covert ops, espionage, the team house with your host, Jack Murphy,

and David Park. Hey, everyone. Welcome to episode 22 of the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with Dave Park. D. Back there producing in the Shadows. And our guest on today's show is Frank Delessio. He spent 26 years in the alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, mostly doing a lot of undercover work, doing infiltrations of motorcycle gangs.

We're really excited to have Frank here today and get into all of it with them. I just want to give a quick shout out to our sponsors. Dave. Yeah, so our first sponsor tonight is Remedical. If you need accurate medical evidence that can help maximize your VA benefits, Remedical is your place to go. And their team of specialists are passionate and experienced about helping veterans. Find out how they can help you at remedical.com.

That's R-EEE Medical.com. And our other sponsor tonight is Augusta Precious Metals. If you guys want to get into precious metals as a way to diversify your portfolio, please check them out. You can text Team, T-E-A-M-2, to 6-8-5-9-2, or go to augusta preciousmeddles.com. So I hope you guys will check them out. So, Frank, again, thank you for joining us tonight on a Friday evening. Really appreciate it, man. I want to start off by just asking you the question we pretty much start all of our interviews with is about your origin story. I'd like to ask you a little bit about your upbringing, how you grew up, and sort of how that took you towards a, the path to law enforcement?

Well, I was born and raised in Youngstown, Ohio, born in 1965, and that was at the height of when Youngstown was really rolling with the steel mills and everything. My dad was a police officer, my uncle was a police officer. We had firemen, so, you know, very ethnic town,

melting pot, you named ethnicity, and it was there. My family, Italian Catholic, a lot of guilt, loud at home. holidays. So, you know, you know, so I went to Catholic schools most of my life. So that was challenging too because that was quite an experience. Had a great time, but just a different experience than the public school kids had. Play football. That was my primary sport. I went

to Ursula High School. Graduated from there, and I went down in West Virginia. I won't say I played on the team. I was on the team. But I made it one year. And it wasn't, it wasn't going for me. So I went back and I told my dad, I'm done. Of course, disappointment. But I moved to Florida. My brother was living down there. So my buddy and I moved down to Florida. And after a couple years and making $3.25, it wasn't working out.

So I said, I got to go back to school. Now, when I was at West Virginia, I was a forestry major, believe it or not. So I had no, no desire to go into law enforcement whatsoever. But when I went back, I started having conversations with my dad about law enforcement. So I ended up getting a criminal justice. degree. I got out in three and a half years because I just wanted to get out of school. So when it's come time to start applying for jobs, I applied to everybody but ATF. I had no idea what ATF even was. Okay. So my dad, if you don't know anything about Youngstown,

it's a, it's a, it's the, it's the old Italian, I know a guy and I got a guy because that's that is, right? So being a Italian in Youngstown, you had as many friends that might have relatives that were involved in some things, right? I remember my grandmother had passed away, and we were at the funeral.

And I'd only been hired like a week. And my dad says, hey, somebody wants to talk to you. And I'm like, who? And it was Joey Naples. Now, Joey Naples was a head of the crime family in Youngstown. And I went over there. He goes, hey, I heard you got hired by ATF, and I'm going, okay, how to hell? You know that, right? But it was very small community. So like in Youngstown, you know, you have people that went into firefighter, you know, they were policemen, public service, you know, working in the mills, the auto industry, US steel, were public still,

sheet and tube. They were huge then, right? So that was your path. But everybody, everybody had a bookie, right? And so you were raised street smart. You learned, I mean, you hung out of places, and everybody got along. Nobody said anything. I could tell you story after story about that. I thought you weren't funny one after I got hired on the job. But so my dad goes, hey, go down and see Freddie Kailets and Wayne Lovin. Wayne was the rack, there as an agent in Charging Youngstown,

and Freddie was a friend of theirs. And these guys all hung out at the same bars. And they were all revenue guys, right? This was back in the late 80s. So I go down there and they tell me about ATF. And I'm like, wow, because ATF, which I, again, I didn't know anything with, not very diverse. You know, we got alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives. Now, when it comes to the tobacco and alcohol, unless you're doing like moonshine, like

thousand gallons and cigarettes transporting a thousand, you know, tractor trailer, ATF really don't get involved in that. But it was at the height of, you know, they talked about all the undercover they did when they were doing a revenue. That intrigued me, right? And this was at the height of when crack was just coming on. the scene in the United States bad and about the guns and the violence and that kind of intrigued me. So I took the TEA exam and like most of my compadres who took it, passing was 70.

I failed at the first time by half a point and I passed it by two points the next time. And come to find out when I was at the academy, everybody's asking about what they scored, what they scored. I think we only had one guy out of 24 that scored above an 80. So I didn't feel too bad then. I didn't feel like a big dumb ass. And then it started. I got a sign to Columbus, and that was my first post, and off it went.

So what was the funny story that you wanted to tell about getting the job? So I'd been on a job about six months. And so I go back to this bar called Syrax. It was on east side of Youngstown. And the one thing about the guys back then, Mike Syracuse, those guys never messed with drugs. It was all numbers, right? And it was all, everybody hung out there. Cops hung out there.

Cucks hung out there. But it was like a Switzerland neutral ground, right? But he ran numbers out of there. Well, he's dead now, so I can talk about that. And so one time I go in there, my dad was down there on a Saturday afternoon. And I go in there to, you know, just to have a drink with my dad. So we had pagers back then, right? So I get a page.

And you could never just go into the back kitchen. You had to ask, Mike, can I go back in and use the phone? And he said, sure, go ahead. Well, first he walked back there to make sure nobody was back there. So I walked back in here and I dial up the phone. And I'm on the phone talking to my boss. Well, income, and I can never remember the name of this guy. In comes this guy.

He's about 80 years old, old Italian guy shuffling in with two grocery bags. And now they had a big butcher block table in the center, right? So I'm watching him and I'm watching him. And as I'm watching him, he starts stumping out all this cash. and as that's happened I'm on the phone and Mike walks in I tell my boss

hey I got to go I hang up and Mike goes now if you got to do something you can do it he goes but before you do that I got to talk to this dumb ass over here he goes hey do you know who that is

he goes yeah he goes that's a little Frankie Deliscio he goes oh hey he goes you know what he's doing right now he goes isn't he in college Mike goes no he fucking graduated he goes well what is he doing he goes he works for fucking ATF you idiot

The guy I thought was going to have a fucking stroke. I walk out of there and my dad goes, where are you going? I go, I got to go. I'll talk to you later. And then that was, I mean, that stuff happened all the time. I mean, just because it's youngstown. I mean, when I was growing up when the car bombing wars were going on in Youngstown, so I hung around with this kid, Bobby Pogan, right?

Now, his dad was a connected guy. And so we would go watch Boom Boone Mancini fight great, your gold gloves down in Struthers at the point. fieldhouse, right? Now, I never knew anything about this, but it seemed kind of cool that they had like automatic car starters, you know, and anytime we would go, they would say, hey, we got to stop here to warm the car up. Well, that's when everybody was getting bombed, right? So his dad ended up going to go in jail. He got in a shootout with the FBI. He went away for some time. But, you know, you just grew up, but it was just a matter of people having guns to see, you know, it was just

culturally, you know, you were safe, but that's how. You know, you were safe, but that's, you know, how we grew up in Youngstown. People, if you're from there, you understand. Right, right. And so when you graduated from the ATF training, they put you kind of back into your home turf. Well, you know, yeah, before that, they were, well, we had guys that were in New York, they shipped them to L.A.

We had guys who were in L.A., they shipped in New York for whatever, you know, because that old adage, well, you can't work in your own hometown because, you know, that whole FBI thing, corruption, right? Well, you know, so I ended up down at Columbus, Ohio, which was another shit show because ATF used to have these things called punishment posts. So if you were an agent that wasn't performing or got in trouble, they would ship you to these different posts around the country. Well, Columbus was one of them before I got there.

They had hired five new people in Columbus and they still had these three hangar honors. And they eventually got rid of him. Tony Denardi was Iraq and he was brought in there for nothing else but to get rid of these guys. I showed up the first day on the job. and the guy who was my training officer, John Licky, German guy from Chicago, that we were in a Bay area, so our desk were butted up to one another.

I'm all full of piss and vinegar. I sit out at the desk. And the other guys are watching because I don't know John, but they know him. And he leans over his desk into my face. And he goes, ATF is a vindictive outfit. They're going to be out to get you.

That was like five minutes on the job. A little bit I know. There's a lot of truth. that. But anyway, that was my opening day TF and it was like, holy crap. Well, so, you know, we had all new guys. And the relationship with ATF with the Columbus Police Department wasn't really that good because, you know, they really didn't interact with them, especially in our academics. Well, like I said, we had a lot of young guys. You know, we went to the academy. The old academies used to be because ATF was very thick in bringing a lot of state and local guys.

on because ATF is still one of the only federal agencies that doesn't require a college degree to come on. They'll exchange, you know, work, investigative work for your degree. So we had a lot of state and local guys that were coming on. You know, I didn't have any police experience. I was 24, but it was a good mix. And back then there was, if you were like 28 or 29, you were old. So they were bringing all these guys on. And so we'd go through all our training where that's where I met my one of my dearest friends, Darren. Kazlowski, who we kind of passed went down the same way. And so we're going, you know, we're going through this training and, you know,

and you're learning everything. Well, then it comes to field ops, right? So field ops is the portion where, okay, you're going to take all the stuff you learn and you're going to take it out into the practical exercises. Well, when I was there, the question of, okay, how many you guys want to work undercover, guys and girls? Like if there were 24 people, 22 raised their hand and said, hey, I want to do it. Well, when I got was getting out of the academy or when I was getting out of ATF in 2014,

when I go down to instruct, you were lucky to get two or three people to raise their hand because they're hiring different types of people, not worse people, but more professional people, you know. So different mindset, right? So, you know, I went through the academy. I ended up in Columbus. So as soon as I got there, there was four other guys in it. we had a our our our basically our training officer was one guy don mapley who ended up becoming our boss he took us all under his wing and man we just get informants and we would just start making

buys we used informants initially then we would start rolling in to make crack buys and then we were just smashing doors smashing doors right so eventually we started stepping on the columbus police department's toes because we weren't deconflicting so they were smashing our doors and we were smashing air doors. But the one thing to come out of that is they knew we wanted to work. So the relationship really grew. I mean, you know, it was a violent time in Columbus. There was a lot of, you know, street gangs, not like crips and bloods per se, but more like, you know, ad hoc street gangs that were controlling different areas. And then we had the Jamaicans and then you had the Jafakins. You had the, you know, the guys that were pretending to be Jamaicans that weren't and everybody

believed because they had an accent, right? But those guys were shooting it up. It was, it was pretty good, you know, and so it was a pretty wild time, but I'll tell you what is great training because you learn how to do everything. I mean, you were in the middle of everything. That's when we started getting our taste of undercover. And we were running ops all the time. I mean, there are days we're doing three, four search warrants a day, just banging them down.

We go make the buys it, and we go out and do that kind of stuff. So it was a great place to learn. And Don was a good guy because, you know, he took the time to train us, train us properly. And he shielded us from a lot. You know, you had guys back then who were stand-up dudes that would fight with management. Now, our sack, Bill Wood, was an old reverendur guy, good guy.

If you worked, he loved you. He didn't hire anybody, didn't play athletics at any level. And we come to find that out after we all got hired. We were talking, he goes, oh, if you didn't play any kind of athletics, he wouldn't hire you because he believed that you need no teamwork, sacrifice, you know, because it was like, you know, Frank, when you come on, you're going to miss anniversaries, you might miss holidays, you might, and I took that to heart, you know, and everybody that I know that came on that that's had a successful career in ATF, you did miss a lot of that,

a lot of personal time you lost with your family, but, you know, that, you know, that's the conversation you have with your wife when you get married and they, they accept it or they don't. Could you tell us a bit about, I mean, was that the extent of your undercover training at that time, was sort of OJT. Well, okay, so ATF, unlike other agencies, because I worked a lot with FBI, HSI, DEA, they all have to go to an undercover school before they can work undercover. ATF, you go through the two-week block at the academy.

When you get out, you just have to raise your hand and say, I want to work undercover. If the Rack or group supervisor feels you have the ability to do it, down the road you go. Now, they're going to try to stick you with somebody who has been doing it or has experience, and it's all OJT work. Now, we did have advanced undercover schools, but it wasn't a requirement for you to go. So I never went to one. I've instructed at them because I was always involved in something. I got invited to go down and teach, but it was just, I would say, for the guys in ATF, 99% of what they learned. They learned OJT and on the streets and sometimes the hard way.

Frank, you mentioned your relationship with the local PD, but, you know, ATF, alcohol, tobacco, fireons, so you're doing, you're doing these drug warrants. How did you guys fit in with the DEA throughout your career? Did you, was there a lot of cooperation? Did you step on each other's toes a lot? You know, to be brutally honest, because I'm going to, you know, we had, you know, it's personality-driven. Let's put it that way. You know, sometimes if the boss is good, you're, it.

your agencies will click together because the guys will work good. If the bosses aren't good or you got some agents that don't want to cooperate, the ATF had to share assholes like everybody else, you know what I mean? But you try to work with people. You find those few guys to get the job done because that's what it's about. So, you know, I had friends with FBI. I had friends with DEA. But most of the time, you know, they had their task forces.

And they were recruiting off of the, you know, off of the local police departments. Well, us, we went, made our own ad hoc task forces with the NARC guys that we like to. I mean, one of my dearest best friends in the world, he was 50 years old, as old as my dad when I came on. I did my first long term when he was getting out, Tom Straussbaugh. I mean, you know, the stories. But, you know, so, but we were running and gunning. And we, you know, it wasn't, they didn't give us the respect until we earned it.

And we did earn their respect. And that's what we wanted to do. to where we can get on equal par. And we do with DEA and we do with FBI. And some people you can work with and some people you can't. So, you know, there wasn't such thing as deconflicting back then, like the Haida's are now. And where you de-conflict some of your work so that there's not any blue-on-blue, you know. But that was always contentious because it was a need-to-know versus a right-to-know.

And sometimes we never de-conflicted just because of the sensitivity of the case. Then, go-in-forcement, what do they call that daxing? you've got a DAX or DEX? I've heard guys use the term to deconflict. Well, there's techs. The treasure, well, basically, Heider runs deconfliction. Okay, okay. So what you do is, so what you do is they have a,

they have a deconfliction center and other agencies represented. So if you have a target or an address or you're going out to do a warrant or you have an investigation, you're supposed to send that in to them so that they can make sure that nobody else is either going to hit the same house or location and that there's no blue-on-blue situation. And, you know, and if you're working the same target, this is where it gets tricky. If you identify the same target, then it becomes who has control of the target. And that usually comes down to the U.S. Attorney's Office and who's in best grace is with them. Because sometimes agencies will get walled out of their own cases because somebody has a better, a better asset.

Now, you'd like to think people can work together and do it, and it does happen. So if you guys, and I don't know if this has ever happened to you, but when you guys have guys on like a deep cover and they're in with some serious hardcore players, right, some shitheads. And if, and if you get rolled up by local PD or whatever because you're in this group of people and they're doing something nefarious, how do you, how do you handle that when you go to booking and stuff like that? You go to jail.

I mean, a lot of times, so the game has changed significantly. on the long-term infiltrations. Like guys like like the OG of all-a-motorcycle gang infiltrations would have been Steve Martin with Langley and Timmy Buns. And there was one other guy in his names escaping me. They did the first, which you would say modern infiltration of the warlocks in Florida. And it was like a need to know. There was no ATF didn't even have op plans back then.

So it was like, hey, we're going out to do something and we're going to do it. And we'll let you know how it goes. And if something bad happens, we'll call you, we won't. Because there wasn't all this oversight, which towards the end, it was a ton of oversight. So, and that's where the case is, you know, if you got rolled out, we get stopped all the time, right? So we have our identification, but you got to understand. For ATF for the backstopping, back in late 80s, early 90s, it was a collateral duty for one dude in headquarters. Right.

And all he could do is maybe give you a social security number. in a credit card and they fucked that up. Right. None of it was aged. It was like, yeah. No, no, you could. You could. You could. You could. Yeah. And, but, but the problem was, you know, because now, mind you, there weren't even computers at this point in time. You know, in the cell phones were the brick phones and you had the old motor roller gray flip phone, right? So there wasn't a whole lot of technology. But the cops, right, they'd stop you. They'd run your license plate or they'd run your license plate or they'd run your, tag, all that stuff was covered, right? So you were good. You know, now if you got caught with a gun. Now, hopefully, if you did have cover team out there, you were working for me, they would flag those guys off so they didn't bother you. But we had, we had our share guys that got arrested and went to jail. And then you got to deal with it after because then, you know, the organization, clubs are

looking at you, the gangs, looking at you going, okay, what's happening now because they have to maintain their cover. Yeah. Right. So you might have to spend a night or two in jail. We've had guys have to spend a night or two in jail because, you know, they want to do all the bonding out and everything. You have to get your own attorneys and you have to work with the judges on that to try to get that right. So you're not spending time in jail, right? Yeah. So, but yeah, there was a lot of times that things would happen that our guys would get stopped and pull over, especially on runs. You get checked out. But our backstopping got better. I mean, it did over time. Like my stuff during that time, like in my first case in Columbus, that went three and a half years.

And it was all self-acquire other than those two things, right? So I had to call people that I know trying to explain to them what I'm trying to do. And they're like looking at you with three eyes. And, you know, but it was all your own backstopping to cover your ass because, you know, but they hired private investigators to check you out. So it was, it's a lot different than it is now. Yeah. You know, the guys are smart.

You know, federal Penn, state Penn, they're the best college educational world because they know how we do things so they start thinking outside the box now you know how to try to catch us i want to get into that a little deeper let's uh give a shout out here to the sponsor uh so our sponsor remedical uh okay let's take them on and tell you about our sponsor remedical we know how difficult it can be to get accurate disability ready i mean anybody who's dealt with the VA knows what a nightmare that is and to get the proper benefits despite your best efforts and multiple doctors is Connecting new or worsening disability to your service just adds to the frustration. This is ReMedical's wheelhouse.

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I don't know if you want to pick up that straight of thought or we... Actually, except I'd love to talk about, before we even get into your personal story, I'd love to talk about the challenges of undercover work. And for people who might not be familiar with, like, a cover, when we talk about backstop, that means that you have a history. If you have an address and somebody goes to that address, like that there are backstops to your... cover. When we talk about aged cover site, nobody has a credit, you know, if you get a brand new

alias that hasn't been aged, you have a credit rating of zero because you have a card that's never been used. You know, you don't have any kind of, you know, places where bills have ever been sent. And maybe back then it was harder to check that kind of stuff. Now, though, I'm sure the gangs are much savvier when it comes to checking somebody out. How did, how was that undercover process for you when you infiltrated, when you started? and then how did it change through the years? Well, I'm not going to get into the TTPs. Sure.

You know, and all that. But what I can tell you is, so when I got went into my first club, there was no check, right? It was based on my informant vouching for me, you know, them doing their own checks, seeing where I lived, you know, just talking to me, how it worked, what I did. Right. They did their own personal thing. But then when I went out to Las Vegas and was working. work in Avago's before you can get in, you had to fill out. It was a one sheet application, right?

They asked you for a copy of your driver's license, copy your social security card, where you live, and all that. And then you had to pay, and then they had a private investigator that was going to obtain some of your backstop, like your birth certificate. You had to tell them where you were born and all that. Remember when I talked about self-acquire? Well, the guy who gave me my, because we have. had a way to do, you know, for credit and stuff like that.

So, you know, the thing is, it's no secret. The bad guys know today, because we've passed so many tests with them that we could take something digitally and make it appear as good as anybody else on paper, right? It's the other things that are the challenges today. But however, so we had, we had that all those mechanisms. Well, not at that time in place. So one issue I had was. So I filled out my application and something just didn't feel right to me.

So I called a buddy of mine who had to use car lot. I said, hey, run my social security number and tell me what you come back with. So he calls me 10 minutes later and he's laughing, which is not good. And he says, hey, he goes, you got three people with that same social security number. I go, how to fucking have three people? I go, it's supposed to be issued to me only. so I make my call to headquarters, our special operations division, and I talked to the young man who was in charge of the program,

and I said, hey, man, I got a problem with my social. He goes, you can't. He goes, we, he goes, what number did I give you? And I gave him the number and there's silence on the phone. Then I hear him go, oh, shit. I go, well, that's not good, dude. I go, I already gave these guys my info. He goes, well, that was the number we used to test the system.

I had a black male, Hispanic male in me, all with different credit histories floating around now. So that was one strike because then they start questioning me about that. Then the next strike was I had to acquire my own birth certificate. I had that all lined up, right? The day that the private investigator makes contact with the county, guess what?

The guy I had on board out sick. he gets he gets called back to the to the private investigation and he goes well you know it's a very good forgery but it doesn't come back to that guy so i'm under the hammer getting hammered on all this because you know but the thing is greed is a beautiful thing because they really wanted us in the club so they were overlooking a lot of stuff because i had some shelf aliases because we always had multiple and they got into this why we're using this alien or why we're using that name and not this one I said, because I don't know you motherfuckers. You know, and I'm not giving you my real shit.

I know, this is what I'm into. Well, anyway, they believe that. We went down the road and, you know, and then that case ended because the other agent who was working, Darren Kozlowski, cause who was working the case out in Hollywood, got blown out of the water. They found out who he was. They still thought we were good.

And I got a phone call talking about how they wanted to kill him. I wanted to kill him, too. anyway so that case sitting in real well however what it did prompt was the initiation of our undercover branch back in 1998 where they're like we got to fix this right I had no desire to go into that undercover branch I was pissed I just wanted to go to another post but I got yanked in and three other guys were there and we actually started our branch and we got a good sponsor and then we start doing our own backstopping the proper way and you know and it morphed but you know every time we do an infiltration, like I said, over the course of 40 years, I think we've probably done 20.

Not all of them were long, but there were some that went long and were damaging, right? So they all talk, you know, they have meetings, even the adversarial clubs will talk about how they were infiltrated. And I'll tell you, it came down to the applications changed. When the guys were going into the Black Rain case out in California, the Mongols case, three of them had to get polygraphed. okay they had to pass that that was another shit show because I was running a branch at that time and you know what ATF's concern was this how fucked up this was we're we're talking about three guys who are getting in they got a path to polygraph if they're in they're in right their concern was

if these guys learn how to beat the polygraph well if they ever come under internal affairs investigation and they have to take polygraph how we know they won't be that's that's that's that's the petting this bullshit yeah Yeah. So, so they ended up all taking the polygraph and pass them. And then they all got it. And then that case, it's sister, they did a whole, man, they took down that whole play. That's probably the single best investigation in ATF from start to finish. The outlaw case in Virginia was very similar. And the, the, uh, the pagan case up in Long Island where they actually went and he took out the leadership, like the no shit national presidents, international presidents. Um, and you know, but go ahead. I'm sorry. Uh, well, I mean, finish your three. Uh, well, I mean, finish your three. thought, but I'd like to backtrack a little bit to your personal experience, your introduction into that world, but please continue. Well, I mean, it's just changed so much that these guys now, you know, they look at you and it's like, okay, they understand over the course of 40 years that we could look at you all day long on paper. We know you're going to have a house.

We know you're going to have cars. We're going to have motorcycles. We had guys that came to work with us just to verify we were working to take a look at how we worked, you know, security. guys, you know, just to see what's going on. They come and look at your house, looking for cameras. They do all that mess, right? Well, you know, then they start thinking outside the box on what can they get you to do that cops wouldn't do, you know, feds wouldn't do, you know, they don't worry about informants because although they can be damaging, they're looking for the, you know, they're looking

for the infiltrators, right, cops, law enforcement. So, you know, so the game did change quite a bit towards the end, guys. we're going through some pretty high hurdles to get in these clubs. And everybody thinks that we got in these clubs because we wanted the patch. It was never about the patch. You know, you could only go so far in an investigation, right, as a hang-around or an outsider. And sometimes that's good enough.

You can do enough damage doing it that way, and it's better because getting a patch and deciding that I'm going to go in and probate a prospect, which could be from three months to a year, right, you're at their beck and call and it's hard to do business because everybody's watching you. So there has to be a real reason to get the patch and that's so you can get on the inner

sanctum and go further. But that was never the goal. Everybody always said, oh, you guys just want to get the pat. No, we don't know. That's the byproduct of the investigation because then you really are owned by the club. You know, they watch you, they look at you, they see what you're doing.

A lot of scrutiny. You know, a lot of those guys were right for the wrong reasons that you know all the guys over the years of being cops they just couldn't nail it down except for the one time but other than that you know so walk us back a little bit to you know you're a semi-seasoned ATF age and i take it at this point when you start doing the long-term undercover work no no well well tell tell us about tell us about your entryway into that into that line of work and how that came about so so when i was young you know i i i love liked ride motorcycles and mini bikes and all that stuff, right?

So one of the agents in the office, Rodney Russell, he had an informant who he did a big drug RICO case on a bunch of black gang members. But this dude was white. But he also had ties to a lot of the biker clubs, right? So I'm talking to Rod. And Rod goes, hey, he's got some hooks into somebody's clubs. He goes, would you be interested? And I'm like, well, shit, I like to ride motorcycles.

But, you know, I've never been around like club life. I didn't know really what that was about. So that's when I start calling Steve Martin and saying, Steve, now he's in the middle of his investigation with the warlocks, and I'm trying to get educated on how should I act, what should I, what should I ask? You know, how do I not piss these people off? So he's educating me, right? So I've been going through a couple bars in the area, just kind of get,

and I need to have motorcycle. So my good friend Tom Strasbaw, who was on the vice squad at the time, he had a motorcycle. So I had to go borrow his motorcycle to go start riding with these guys. And he was very gracious with that. So I'm riding the motorcycle. So I get invited to a part, well, the CI gets invited to a party at this club called the Road Saints on the south side of Columbus. And he goes, come on.

He goes, this would be a great place for you to meet. He goes, the Avengers will be there. He goes, there might be some outlaws. He goes, there'll be some road saints. He goes, just a good place to get phased on. I go, I'm in. Now I'm old was I? I've been on a job like three years, three and a half years.

So this is like trial by fire. So the CI shows up himself because he don't have a bike. He's there in a car. So I roll up on my motorcycle. There's a lot of people there. And, you know, hey, how you doing? How you doing? I hour into the party, Columbus Police Department and Liquor Control come and raid the house.

and I'm shit in my opinion. So I take my gun because I don't want to go to jail, right? So I throw my gun under the house. I'm getting rid of anything that could be construed as a weapon because we normally carried more than, you know, one gun. And so the police are patting down, their ID and everybody, you know. And luckily, because I had been running out on the streets of, you know, of Columbus and stuff that there weren't anybody there that recognized me.

Okay. So party breaks up. I go back to the bar the next day to see what's going on. I sit out at the bar. I'm having a sandwich and a beer. Two Avengers walk in, two Roots Saints walk in. They pull me out. Now, I'm not a small guy by any stretch of the imagination.

In fact, I was bigger back then, you know. And they pulled me out, and they put me up at a wall at gunpoint and go, who the fuck are you? And I'm like, what do you mean? Who am I? I go, I'm Tony. Tony Franco. That was my name. And they go, no, who are you?

I go, I don't know. So this went back and forth for a half hour on, hey, I was the new face that showed up. The house got raided. Who are you? Are you with Ohio BCI? Where the, I don't know where they came out of that. And it was like so for like I was getting hammered for like, you know, half hour guns. Well, eventually, I think because I was young and I was able to talk, you know, just talk. I had a good gift of gab. They're like, all right. But it was like, you know, we're going to be watching you kind of deal. So. That was kind of discouraging. So, yeah, a little scary. So, you know, so things kept on and I kept going around. And then stroke of luck for me. Now, at this time, I started pulling my buddy Tom Strasball start coming around. And he was an arc. Now, we had to be real careful because that guy had been at homicide and our vice.

So we had to kind of limit his exposure. But one of the best mentors I could have ever had in my life. So he taught me a ton. And so we're sitting there and I start pulling him in. Well, about a year into this, right? We've been buying LSD. We've been buying all kind of stuff off the peripheral, the edges and a few club members from the Avengers. Well, my, I call him my friend now, my informant.

I've known the guy for 30 plus years, right? Didn't have any criminal history. He had done a case down in New Orleans. Okay. So Easy Rider, if you're familiar with like Easy Rider Magazine, well, they used to do like rallies around the country. And Columbus was a big one. And they actually opened up a motorcycle shop in Columbus.

And my informant and his best friend, they ended up going to work there. Well, I got a call from an agent down in New Orleans and said, hey, I need you to do me a favor. We got to pay Tony some reward money for the case he did. He goes, do mind going and seeing him? And I'll send it up. I go, you know, we'll blend. So we stopped at the Easy Rider shop Tom and I

And it had just opened and we walk in Now his his his best friend who is not a C stump Who we didn't know we go hey we're looking for Tony And he's looking at us now you know I had at that time I had real long hair you know and Tom looked like a bucket of shit too We rolled in on motorcycles and he's like He goes well hold on and I see him take off up these stairs So Tom and I follow him and we get up there and there's Tony standing there

stump and they're like grabbing shit to start beating hell out of us. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we're like, what are you doing? They go, who are you guys? I said, David sent me, which was his control agent down. And it was like everything, you know, kind of, kind of softened out. And then within talking to Tony, you know, he knew that whole crowd because he used to be in a club called the Outwriters. It was there a long time ago that had become the brothers. And we just start talking. He goes, man, he goes, I can get right back in with those guys if you want. He goes, I'll work for you. And then it was like, boom, we were off to the races. And for like the next two years, man, we were running between Ohio, Michigan, Indiana.

We were running everywhere, you know, make byes. We dealt with, we dealt with just about everybody. You know, we had our share issues, but it was a different time because, you know, I would tell my boss, hey, I'm leaving Columbus. I'm going to Akron. And then I'm going to go up to Muskegon and a couple other places along the way. I'd be gone for a week. Okay, just make sure you have contact with. an agent and let them know if you buy anything, just make sure you're passing off.

That was our coverage. Yeah. So that was it. If you guys, if you guys, I'm assuming you weren't necessarily patched at this time with any particular club, how did you guys get bona fides with these clubs not belonging to anybody in particular? You're just kind of like independent. You were one of the hangarounds, as they say, right?

Well, not for those clubs. We were more like independence. Yeah. So we, you know, we were around. We were doing business. Tony, like for the brothers, Tony was friends with those guys. So that was the way in. The issues we had, now the other, they had a couple other chapters, but they had,

the only other chapter of brothers they had was up in Akron. And then it was the guys up in Michigan. Now, the guys in Akron, they were old school hard ass, some of the bitches. man on um they really didn't have an affiliation with any major club because most smaller clubs will right you know because they have to right they didn't the hell's angels got along with them they didn't get a lot now the brothers didn't get along with the breed at all there were plenty of times when we went up there we'd go hunt for them guys you know but um but the hell's angels left them alone because they did their own thing you know uh they were a violent crew but

nobody really messed with them they did you know for a long time you know they did their own dope guns, grenades, whatever you wanted, you can get from those guys. So we eventually, Tony, you know, we talked about getting back into the club. And then Tony got back in. Now, the guy who was the president of the club, his name was Woppe. He was, you know, so let me explain. When we go into clubs, if they're in disarray, we generally go in and make the club better. We organize the crowd.

better for them, if that makes sense. Yes. You know, they're all over the board. So we go in there and organize the crime, so they're more profitable and more streamlined to make money. And they always like that about it. Most of our guys that ever went into a club within either going from a probate or a prospect, you usually went to an officer position right away,

whether it was Sergeant and Arms or treasurer or vice president or even president. because we were smart, but we had to be careful. We didn't want to be seen too smart like we knew too much because we never wanted to say we were coming for another club because then they could check that, right? So we just had to be good criminals. We had to offer, bring something to the table. And, you know, when you go in as a young guy, what do you got to offer?

I mean, you're a new guy coming in, right? So you're expected to be a little bit more rowdy, you know, maybe fight a little more, maybe drink a little harder. The drugs were a whole different issue. you know, with that, if you guys want to, the whole simulation, you know, deception with an ATF became a big to do because, you know, guys learned how to appear to be doing drugs, but not. And we got drug tested and nobody ever popped positive, you know. And, but we had to make it appear. Now, the older you've gotten those clubs, it was easier to fade that off.

Right. Because it's like, hey, I had a problem a long time ago. I don't fuck around. You know, if you're still dealing at the level you were when you were 25. and you're now 40, something's wrong with you. You're a bad crook, right? So you should have something about you and your game. You should be able to throw some money around and look like, you know, it's all smoking mirrors,

you know, make them believe what you want them to believe about your business. Yeah. How do you guys, like, avoid, if you go in and you organize a club so they do crime better, how do you avoid, like, the sort of the entrapment angle that a defense attorney is going to, a brain. Okay, so we don't tell them how to do a crime. We don't, we don't direct the crime. Right. They're talking about how they're moving their drugs and they're talking to us about how they're doing it. And, you know, so we have this thing, you know, it's out there, street theater where we, we do blue on blue deals that make the bad guys look like we're doing

actual deals, but it's actually with cops, right, or other law enforcement. And they see, you're legit. And we'll bring them along. as bodyguards will pay him and all that kind of stuff, you know. But we don't direct the crime. All we'll do is we'll go in here and we'll say, well, how do you guys do it? It's like, well, you know, and we'll get into, you know, how much they're selling, where they're selling, who they're selling to. You know, there were a lot of times in these clubs.

So you, you know, it's like anything else. You spend a couple years with people. You're going to get relationships. You're going to find people we actually like, you know. There are only as a good. as Tom once told me, goes, there's only a few people in this world don't have any redeeming qualities. And we came across a few of them. But most of these guys are likable or so to girls.

I mean, you know, they're crooks. They can be assholes, but most of them are likable. Then you got the others that are just in these gangs, in these clubs, because they want to be a part of something. Feel special, right? I can't, I could tell you probably every guy that's done an infiltration and tell you, they had somebody or a couple people in a club I had at least three that would come up and say hey we want to get in the game

no you know why do you want to get in the game I need to make money for my family this isn't the way dude you know if you get caught you're going to prison yeah and some of those guys you would make see the light and you could steer them and then somewhere so help bent on it it was like all right dude you want in the game

this is what we need go finance it and then you know you're saying you know you try to give some consideration on a back side to help them out, but they, but they go to prison. Right. Because they don't want to listen. You know, you can't just say, hey, I'm a cop. Don't do this. Right. But you kind of steer them away that it's not the right thing for you to do. Yeah. Frank, for for people, the uninitiated, most people are not going to be nearly as initiated as you were. Could you explain a little bit about what an outlaw motorcycle club is like what that culture is like, the old ladies, the three-piece

patch, all that kind of stuff? Yeah. So, you know, so an outlaw motorcycle club is, is generally distinguished by a three-piece patch, which means you have the top rocker, you have the bottom rocker, and you have the center patch. And a center patch is usually going to be the mascot, right? So let's just take the outlaws, we'll say, right? So the top of it will say outlaws, the center patch is the skull and cross-pissons,

which they refer to as the Charlie. Okay? And then the bottom used to be city designators. Now, some of the old chapters in most clubs, they'll still have a city designator, but now they've all gone to states for the most part, you know, that they own the state. And then they'll be the MC, the motorcycle club, right? So, you know, and then on the front, they'll usually have various other patches and memory patches and their stages.

So you start as to hang around, and that could be for as long as they want to get to know you, right? And it's changed dramatically. And then you go through a prospect phase. The prospect probate are interchangeable depending on the club you're in. right and that period could be from three months it could be up to a year okay hell's angels have have the longest that you generally a year everybody else folds in there somewhere right and then while you're prospecting and probate you pretty much are owned by the club so you got a sponsor somebody sponsors you you have to get you have to get voted to even be allowed the prospect

probate okay so then once they say okay then you're responsible to the club people call you you got to do all the bullshit. You got to watch the bikes. You got to clean the house. We had guys that were digging trenches for their bosses, their yard work. I mean, whatever, they're not supposed to do that kind of stuff, but pretty much you're their bitch until you get voted in. And the vote has to be unanimous. If one guy says no, you're out. So when it was originally used to be to the charter, to the chapter, right? Charter is pretty much what the hell's angels call it. Everybody else is a chapter, right? Some people say chart. or mostly it sells angels that use that.

And so you come up for vote, right? They vote you in and then you get your full patch, which means in their phases. Like a lot of clubs will have like if when you're a probate or probationary, you'll have a patch that says probate or probationary member of the club. Sometimes they'll give you the bottom rocker, just the bottom rocker or the MC. Sometimes they give you the bottom rocker and the top rocker sometimes. And then you progressively earn your patch.

until you get the center patch. Then they have probationary members. Guys that they bring in as full patches, you get a full patch right out of the gate, but then you'll have like a P or something that says you're a probationary member, which means you're a full patch, you have all the rights, but you're still on probation for a year. So they do that in special cases when they want to bring guys and they think bring something to the table. So it used to be like there was a tree on how this went. Now it's a shrub. Everybody kind of does their own thing on how they bring guys in, you know. And it used to be, where the chapter or charter would vote for you, like if you had eight guys in there, those eight guys would vote now a lot of time it goes to a national vote.

Like, you know, because now they send pictures. Does anybody know this guy? They sent pictures into the prisons. They do their real due diligence on you to make sure that nobody knows you as a copper and informant before they bring you in. Because they've been stung so many times. I mean, some of these clubs have been stung two or three times by ETF. And the drug, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, the drugs, explosives, prostitution, I mean, they tend to be involved in a lot of that.

Yeah, I mean, you're going to have, obviously, you got the felons with the guns. There's a lot of extortion. There's, you know, a lot of home invasion, you know, a lot of drug dealing, you know, gun running, a lot of explosives you can purchase. I mean, it's pretty much everything. They got their hand in prostitution. You know, the thing about motorcycle clubs, it's like, you know, if you're not involved in that game, they're ghosts to you. People, they might notice a motorcycle going down the road, right? But they don't notice the club because they stay to their own element unless there's a reason to come out of that element because that's where their power and fear is. So, you know, like take my mom, oh, I thought hell's angels rolling down, going down the road the other day?

No, mom. No, you didn't. I go, what did the thing on the back look like? She goes, it was like a big pig. I go, well, that's not a hell's angel, mom. But that's what everybody knows. So everybody's a hell's angel. Everybody's an outlaw motorcycle gang member.

They want as little do with the public as they want the public to do with them for the most part, other than trying to show a good posture like the toys for tots and all that stuff that they try to do. But no, I mean, so people are oblivious to them unless you live in that world. I mean, still today, I ride down the road, pack them. Bice goodbye. I'm looking over my shoulder to see who they are just because I you know that doesn't leave you right yeah so but people if you don't live in that world but it's a violent world it's a very violent world I mean women you know there you know there's property of women now either you belong to the club or you belong to a member if you belong to a member she's hands off

if she belongs to the club it's game on right um to you know and they serve at the beck and call women have know, it's, you know, the club, the bike, and the woman. Now, a lot of guys won't tell their women that because they're afraid of them, but that's really how it goes. You know what I mean, women are the, that's the least concern on what's going on with those guys, most of those guys. You know, it's the club first because in the end, it's all about loyalty. Loyalty to the club.

That's what it all comes down to in that patch. And that first infiltration out of Columbus, where you guys were running around doing cross-state, buys and everything. I mean, how deep did you end up going on that one? Well, I have my patch for about a year and a half in that one.

I became the Sergeant and Arms by informant, became the president. And I mean, we, that was, you know, the brothers, it wasn't a big club, however, it offered a lot. So we seized the

outlaw clubhouse. There was another a black one-percenter club. true one percent of club called the phantoms they were based out of chicago they had a clubhouse in columbus we had another informant who was the only white member of that club he was married to black girl and he brought us in and we had stars and bars on our stuff and they didn't care because it was about business i'll tell you a funny story about those guys so they loved us they just loved us so and we met them before we even got in the club because he was running while our other informant was running So you had the Avengers, you had the Roads Saints, like I said, the outlaws.

I mean, we ended up seasoned like six or seven clubhouse. We put like 130 people in jail. It was a lot of dope, a lot of guns. It was crazy. But it's one of those things where it wasn't, we weren't focused on one club. I mean, we were in the brothers and we were focused on those guys, but we used it as a catapult to get in because the outlaws were recruiting us hard to jump over there. And we're like, no, because we didn't want to go. We got a good thing going in that club because we could write our own ticket.

We went, Tony and I went wherever we wanted to go at any point in time, and the club didn't ask us any questions. If we were in a big club like the outlaws, people be watching. You know, they have mandatory runs. They have all this other baloney. You got to do to be in the club. So we were in a good spot there. But we were able to, you know, get into a good position with a lot of those clubs that they arrest a lot of us people. And when did that, or what was that decision point when I assumed the U.S.

attorney is like, okay, this investigation's over. Now we're moving in and making arrests. It's never the U.S. attorney's decision to end it. It's always ATF's decision. Okay. And ATF's decision is, well, you guys have been running a long time. Now, at this point, we had just made another move into another club up in Michigan, which was going to be really good for us. But it was like, okay, you guys been in a long time, three and a half years doing this. It's time to take it down. We weren't ready to come out, but you're going to do what you got to do. Because we also got involved in his big cocaine distribution ring, where they were bringing Coke in off the coast of Florida in Marathon,

and they were running it up to Severeville in Tennessee, and they were bringing it up through Columbus and up into the north. But we ended up tying into this young kid who we were buying off of it. He laid out the whole operation, which enabled the Columbus Police Department, DEA, they could go up on a wire, a Title III, and they're like, hey, we got to take this down.

So that was another catalyst that kind of drove our case because they were going to take it down and we would have been outed. You know, so. Wow. Yeah, it's fascinating. Like, when you're, because motorcycle gangs, like so much of crime, right?

We think of the mafia. We think of motorcycle with the gangs. We think of street gangs. But they are all peripherally tied together. when it comes to drug distribution? In terms of like spreading drugs, like a certain element might own a piece of it, but they're all somehow a lot of times interwoven.

Well, traditionally, Hells Angels, and especially the outlaws and pagans, have all done work for traditional LCN. You know, they were their muscle, you know? You know, it just historically it's there. You know, they've always played a role in that, you know, in the traditional, you know, mafia type of deal, doing whether they were moving product or whatever. That's always been around.

I don't know so much now that it is in the United States because there's really not that much, you know, from what you see, it's more Armenian, Russian and everything else that's controlling the underground more so than the Italians. But, you know, I could be 100% wrong on that. I don't know. But the clubs are still involved. And what you're seeing more now is the traditional white clubs, right? the Outlaw motorcycle gangs because there are, you know, the traditional Outlaw motorcycle gangs, you know, are white and Hispanic, right? They don't allow the blacks in. If they do, it's an anomaly,

right? Like a lot of clubs, like the bigger clubs, can't have them. Just can't. They're not accepted. But then you have 1% of black clubs like Thunderguard, you know, outcasts, clubs like violent. Oh, are they violent? And they kind of pair up. with some of the traditional OMGs and they're doing a lot of business together now because it's all about controlling turf and whatnot. In the old ways of where you know, you had, it was very delineated on what clubs were where.

Now it's not, they've all crossed over. That's why you're seeing more shootings, more violence happening because it's just, there's no more lines of delineation. Everybody's starting still fighting for their turf. Interesting. So that one winds down. And then as an undercover officer, I mean, presumably you have to appear in court, right, as an ATF agent and testify.

Yes. And I mean, does that, I'm just curious, like, doesn't that totally blow your cover as an undercover officer like indefinitely? I mean, in your case, it didn't. But, I mean, I'm curious how that works. Well, so I'll tell you. So most guys that I know that have done these cases. And in ATF, there's like 10 or 12 guys that have done these cases. And some have done multiple, right?

So when you're in those clubs for that long and you're Ronos guys, you form allegiances. And I'm telling you, the night before the takedowns go down and I've had conversations with all my buddies, it's like, man, I want to call this one dude and just tell them to run. Right. Because then the Judas effect comes in, right? Because it's twofold. The Judas effect comes in because it's there, right? These guys were guys that if on a street something happened, they had your back.

They'd kill. They'd fight for you without question, right? So you had that. Then the other side of it is, is, okay, I've been this dude for like two years, three years. I knew what I was doing all the time. Now, this is going to be over, and I have to reintegrate back into normal agent, right? Right. So you're thinking about that kind of stuff.

So, you know, when you look at how these things end, and then I could tell you this much, in every case that I've worked or I've helped work and, you know, a lot of times they'll bring guys in who've done these cases when they have take down to come interview certain people to try to move them along to cooperate. When our cases were done, we had hardheads that didn't want to cooperate. The day they were taken down, we'd walk in the room and they would look at you and go, son of a bitch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And some of them would be, hey, we understand it was a job and they get it. And there are others didn't give a shit.

You know, one of the biggest things that they get wrapped around on, you know, because when you're talking to these guys, you're bringing in about 90% of your true life, just changing names. And, you know, and if things happen, you tell them stories, you know, where they're might evoke an emotion out of them. They want to know, could you lie about that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Because if you lied about that, then you're real asshole. But okay, because they just want to see how far you would go. Yeah. Sometimes you can straight out lie about some things. But, you know, but it was a very unique dynamic. I mean, every case that I did, you meet those guys. And it's like, man, you know, in another world, we might have been able to be friends. Right.

Right. But then again, if they knew who I really was, would they really be friendly with me and treat me the way they're treating me? Right. Right. Right. But if you weren't, if you weren't ATF and they weren't, you know, in an outlawed bike gang, had you met at a completely different, two different people, like, that this was somebody. And, you know, it's interesting because when we talk to, like, CIA case officers, a lot of times

they'll say sort of similar things that, you know, that the people they work with, you know, their agents or, you know, the people, like, they develop a rapport with them. And this person might be a shithead doing shithead things, but it's like when you get to know somebody as a human being, they're not just all shithead. Like there are elements. Yeah, we had this one guy when I was doing a brother's case. His name was Doc.

And Doc, he was a drug dealer. But, you know, he went a violent guy. I mean, he was a likable, real likable guy, you know. And there were certain members who would get together because it's fair. Clubs are very cliqueish. You know, they just are. and he called up one day.

His son was a drug dealer too, and somebody went up to his son's house and shot him 47 times with an AK, right? And of course, you know, his dad, who could be violent. I mean, he wanted to go start kidnapping people because his son was involved with some black gangsters. And he was just ready to start smoking everybody, you know?

I mean, we felt really bad for him and we're trying to talk him off the ledge, which we did. because, you know, we did have genuine concern. We could have said, yeah, well, go screw yourself and go do whatever you want, Doc. We're not getting involved with that. He'd probably got himself killed, you know. Yeah.

In fact, he liked me so much after he had a lot of medical problems. We helped him out because he had bad cancer. He, after we, we arrested him within a year he was dead. But Tom Straussbaum and I went over to visit him after he got, we went to his house. He actually got a dog and he named it after my undercover name. So I guess I got that going on. Yeah. But no, you do form those bonds.

Yeah. After that initial case was prosecuted, I mean, then what kind of, I mean, now you have a ton of experience in this world. I mean, how did the segue into the next infiltration happen? So a part of the case that we were doing in Columbus took us out to Las Vegas. And we were dealing with some guys out there, some Mexicans out there. And we were buying meth. We were buying pounds of meth and bringing it back. So there were some threats made.

And, you know, ATF, they're just terrible. You know, somebody makes a threat. And the first thing is they want to move you, right? I'm like, why don't you go? So let me back up and tell you a quick story. Sure. You guys will appreciate this, how times have changed. We had an agent in Cincinnati.

He was investigating the iron horseman, okay? And they tried to run him down with a car while he was on the street. Now, the sack at the time was Bill Wood, an ornery man. And, you know, he's a quarterback at South Carolina. He is a revenue. He calls up my boss in Columbus. And he says, I want Frank and I want Dan. He goes, you send him to Columbus and he's going to meet some boys there.

He goes, and you're going to go have a talk with the president of that club. And you're going to tell him what's what. And we did. he sent us down there where four of us went with one of the one of the agents from Cincinnati knocked on the door to chat president come on he was going to help you goes and he laid it out he goes he guys fucked up he goes we're going to find out who did it and then we're going to fuck with your club every step of the way until you guys turn in who did it within 24 hours they turn a guy over that's how you handle business it's not like you sit

there chew your nails they knew again crooks don't Crooks don't respect, excuse me, sir, how are you doing today? They, power, fear, might, that's what they respect. If they don't fear you, they're not going to do anything you say. They're not going to come around. They're not going to talk to you because they're going to look at you like you're a big puss, you know? So that ended that. I mean, they turned a guy in.

Well, ATF didn't do that in my case. It was like, Frank, there's four offices that are open. And three of them were shit and Las Vegas was the only one. And my wife, awesome. She was always willing to work. And I, you know, I had a conversation with her before we, you know, we got married. And it was like, look, because we got married during my case. And I did that case.

Yeah, I was. And I told her, I said, you know, this is what I do. This is what I like to do. And she liked to move. So when I asked her, I said, how about Las Vegas? She goes, let's go because I knew the boss out there and I'd already been out there. And I knew to work was good. Plus, they had just started an investment.

because they called me and knew I was getting transferred. They were starting a case into the Vagos who were recruiting real heavily out there at the time. So we packed up and we moved. And as soon as we got there, it was like, okay, Vago's are recruiting. So I brought my informant Tony out to Las Vegas with us. And well, not with me and my wife. He lived in it. We got a house and he was living there.

And that's where I was living in here. and with stump. And so they said, just go to this tattoo shop. And this guy, Sharkey, who was Avago, he goes, he'll recruit you guys right in. He goes, you guys are big dudes. He'll ask you right in. So I didn't know how good the tattoo shop was. So the informant was going to get the tattoo because we needed a couple hours just to fill these guys out.

So I said, Tony, I'll pay for it. Get whatever you want. It was a terrible tattoo. However, it was so bad. It was so bad. But about halfway through the tattoo, Sharky comes out with his colors. And of course, we're playing stupid

because we can't act like we know anything about club life. He goes, do you guys know what these are? And he held up a set of colors of the vagas and we're like, no, what's that? He goes, DeVogos. He goes, you never heard of us? He goes, no, dude, we're from back east.

We know who you guys are. So he goes into this whole feel. He goes, because we rode there on motorcycles. And he goes, he goes, won't you guys come around? It was, this is how easy. He goes, why don't you guys come around? We're having a meeting like three days from now. Now we're going to do shit.

And that's how easy that was getting invited in over there. Then that case, again, you know, with the whole backstopping issues, you know, started to, you know. At first it was good because we were there. And I think that case went a total like 18 months. But, you know, we were getting good. We were buying off of people. You know who we bought off of? which you guys will find funny.

You know, what's in it that show? The pawn shop. Oh, pawn shop? Yeah. Yeah. We bought off of Joe Henderson. I used to go in that shop all the time because all the time and buy dope. The Los Angeles Vegas pawn shop?

Yeah. So we said, because it was only like a two blocks down from the ATF office, believe it or not. I mean, it's just the shop. They make it look huge. It was this little box. But we used to go in there. They're my dope all the time.

We put him in prison for a few years. But anyway, long story short, so we're going around, you know, now, Tramp, Terry, who was the national president at the time, he took a liken to the informant and I. He took a real liking to us. And at the same time, we were trying to get into Vegas. Darren Kozlowski was trying to get into the Hollywood chapter. So we were making our end roads. Now, the thing is that we would know him because we were getting a little bit more credibility on our end. So we were going to help him move along.

So I think I can't, I don't know how long into his investigation he was in, but he had an informant, got T-bone on a motorcycle and got killed. But Darren had given him his car from when he was back in Milwaukee. It was a long, it was a long, yeah. I think it was a Milwaukee car. Well, anyway, so that kind of dies off. And Darren's working through his thing over there. We're working through our thing in Las Vegas. And we're cut through Forman and I are constantly traversing back and forth between Las Vegas.

And more so than even the club is, right? And we're getting to know all these guys. Well, we come up and we're going to, you know, now they're going to allow us the prospect, right? So there were some stuff that happened. So they had this run up in Reno and the Vagos were trying to make a statement up there, right? So they were going to go at it with the Hells Angels. So again, we go up there. They have us towed all their guns up there, the informant and I, so we bring all the guns up.

So they have this master plan that they're going to go to this Hells Angels bar, and I can't remember the name of it to save my life. And what they're going to do is they're going to wait for. for the Hells Angels to come up, the Reno chapter. And when they come in there, what they're going to do is they're going to push them out the back and they're going to beat the living hell out of them. That's the plan. Well, we're having this meeting as a club. And there's me and Tony who aren't, we're not even prospects at this point in time.

They had him a bat and me a hammer and two other guys. And they say, get behind the bar. And they go, when we flush these dudes out, it's your job to beat the hell out of them. And of course, I'm looking at Tony. And we're just, you know, you can do nothing but laugh, right? We're chuckling. And so we go stand back there and we're just praying at God that something happens that we don't have to do this because it's going to turn it.

We don't know. Yeah. So we're out there for about a half hour. And then I'll come a couple of logos come out and they say, hey, okay, everything's good. They've had some negotiations in there. We're good to go. We're like, okay. So that broke that, which was awesome, right?

But the stress was tremendous. And so we go back and now they're going to have a national meeting and it was happening in Las Vegas. So this is where we're going to start prospecting, me, my informant, and cause. So we all start prospecting on the same day. But you get brought up. So there was probably 100 members there, 100, 200 members. You come into, I think we're at the VFW Hall.

You go in there and they bring you up on a stage and they stay. and they start and they're like you know are you willing to die for the club are you willing to fight for you willing to do all this stuff right you're like yeah you know yeah i'll do whatever i gotta do then they asked is there anybody in here who's got anything negative to say about these brothers or why they shouldn't get into the club and because we did what we did up in Reno which wasn't anything but just standing there in terror they they were all these brothers are down they stood up for the club and blah blah blah blah blah blah you know all this mess and uh so we ended up getting our prospect rockers, right? So we were prospecting for about three months. Now, there were times like stupid stuff. You know, one thing that bother guys like us are somebody's cop clubs out there that want to affiliate with clubs. And then a lot of the military clubs, because they recruit out of the military hard, right?

We were at a thing and we were at a, we were an event in when we were with Vago's where I can't remember if it was the choir boys or what cop club it was but we were sitting there with some of these with some of them in a couple other clubs and these guys were pointing out their own undercover guys that were in a crowd. Yeah. Like that guy over there, that guy.

We're like going, you guys are pieces of shit. Yeah. Yeah. And that's like, and we were at, we were at some function in Las Vegas. and this guy, Jack Roberts, he was an old school, Las Vegas cop, big Irishman,

hands the size of my head, and he would talk about getting fights with the mafia dudes all the time. They would go to the bars just to get fights. He's just, just a great guy, right?

And so he was the only guy that was like covering me him. He and Randy Probst was another agent in the office. They're really the only guys that knew what was going on. So these guys contact Jack Roberts from the Henderson Police Department,

and they say, hey, we're going to go out there and cover this event. Jack goes, well, hey, dude, if you're going, go overt. Because if you go overt, they won't mess with you. You know what I mean? You're taking pictures. They expect that. These two dudes show up, man. They're taking pictures.

They're trying to dress like they're blended. And of course, Tony and I are the prospects, right? And CJ, who was our president, comes over, he goes, hey, we'll find out who those guys are. And I'm looking, and I know, because I know they're cops because they couldn't be anything else. Yeah. And Jack said there might be. two guys out there floating around and I'm looking at Tony so we walk over there and okay we got to do we got to do I'm like you know we had guns I had gun Tony didn't have a gun I had gun and I walk over there

and I'm like hey man give me who are you and I'm like oh no I said give me a driver's license I'm like fuck you guy I go give me a driver's license so they're looking I go you better give me a driver's license it'd be a problem so they hand us over their driver's license right now they're they weren't their true name licenses right and then I was told we had to take their cameras so we took their cameras and we smashed them right and at this point now the club has come and circled them and it's like well it's out of our hands I go if they're going to beat them they're going to beat them right now so at this point CJ is the voice and he's telling him get the fuck out of here blah blah blah blah blah so they start walking back to their car and of course CJ

tells Tony and I again, follow them back to their car and get their license plate. Now, Jack is off on the side watching this. And I'm assuming these guys got guns. They have no idea who we are. Yeah. So we're kind of like following them, half stepping, waiting for them. And Jack is watching, because he doesn't know what they're going to do either. They're going to pull their guns and start shooting, right? So this is a slow walk of about 25 yards to this car. Well, we end up getting to the car and they get in. We get the license plate step. You notice dumb sons of bitches, drove their personal car. I,

you know, I mean, it doesn't sound like, you know, they're not heroic. Some people are like, oh, you know,

like the boobies. It's, it's things like that, though, when it's happening and you're sitting there, and you, you don't know if you're going to get shot by,

you know, other police officers because of who they believe you are, and you're getting ordered to do things. There's a lot of times in these, in these investigations, your chapter P or whoever, president or whoever, they tell you to do things.

You don't, say, well, why? Right. Just do it, you know. It's, so there was a lot of that. I mean, when we were with the Vagoes, again, so this was our final mud check before we were going to get patched in. It was about 2.30 to the morning we were all out.

We go over to this one guy's house dog. And we're all, it's like three, they're all fucked up, you know. And they go, hey, we got to go collect. They go, you guys want to go. Well, that's not like. that's you're going to go. Right. Say no.

So we're like, they go, yeah, we're going. They go, where are we going? They go, don't you worry where we're going. They go, we're going to take your car. We're going to take two trucks. Take off anything that says, you know, that relates to the club, whatever, go outside, mask, you know, put something over your license plate. And I'm looking at Tony.

I go, either they're playing with us or this is going to be bad. So we go do what we're going to do. And then this one do tree, who is an absolute. a little asshole. He's a guy that rode around with a bike. He had a bungee thing over to hold his tanks on. Bad. Anyway, so we get in our car. I'm driving. Tony's in the front. He gets in the back. He goes, hey, you guys got any guns on you? I'm like, no, which I did. I go, no, we don't have any guns. He goes, well, all I got is this is 38. He goes, you don't get anything bigger. I go, nope, this is that, no, I didn't bring anything out tonight. So we drive in

North Las Vegas and we go into this trailer park. There's probably 20 trailers in here, right? Now, Mine is about three o'clock in the morning. We pull in there, three, my car and two trucks, and they go up to the door. They don't knock. They just kick it in. Now, it's a single wide trailer. And there's like, I think eight or nine of us.

And as soon as we get, Tony and I, we're trying to get in the door. Once we get in the door, before we could even get in the door, they got this dude. And they are platt just beating the living shot. Well, apparently, he didn't pay him. for some meth and some other things and he owed him. So they're beating and living hell out of them. And they're like, and they tell us, they go, pull the phones out of the wall.

So we pull the cords out of the wall. And they go, go check the rest of the house. So of course, what do we find? You find a four and a five year old and a 15 year old or so girl. And we pull them out. And all I told Tony is I said, look, I don't give a shit what happens in here. I go, they don't get near the kids. I can fuck it at that point, right?

And they never made any, but we sat and watched. The wife got up her girlfriend I don't know what she was. She got up and got out of the couch to try to intervene because they were beating a snuck. They knocked her over the couch. Now, this went on because they started hauling out all his

motorcycle parts. They loaded his bike into the truck. This went on for about an hour. Do you think anybody called the police? Not one peep. Not one peep. That was one of the best charges we had because we got him for kidnapping, home invasion. I mean,

so you know how I was talking about cover teams. I had one guy that was my cover guy, Randy. And, you know, we were out just social. If you're doing operation, you got, you know, actually doing it by. You got to get people the right people out there. Well, we were just out socially. So after this is over, I'm looking at Tony. I'm going, how the hell am I going to explain this one? Because we basically did a home invasion. Right. Of course, the one thing I want to tell you guys is one of the things is before you go into these cases, you have meetings with the U.S. Attorney's Office, you know, the prosecutor's office, and you talk about what you can and cannot do, okay?

You know, fighting, don't throw the first punch, don't throw the last kick. Drugs can't do drugs. We've had guys that were able to carry user amount of drugs because that's the role they played so they could actually, you know, give little bumps if they needed to, you know. But it was, you know, it wasn't anything, you know, really crazy that you could do, right? Right. So, but you had those talks. You know, when we talked about, you know, language, whether it be swearing or, you know, racial comments. You know, you don't want to sound worse than the criminals, right? That's a problem because, you know, you've got to go testify.

So that was all tempered and that was all approved. Well, we hadn't talked about doing a home evasion yet. Now, mind you, up until this point, Steve Martin had done the Warlock's case. I did the brother's case and then I rolled right into this one I didn't even take a break which became an issue because after six months into the case I got called on the carpet

meaning up to San Francisco where a division was and they were railing me going you were supposed to take a year off I go I never got notified I was supposed to take a year off they go you didn't get notified I go no I go tell me where that

let me tell me where that memo is right yeah I go I never got told I was taking year off and and Gonzales who was the or Rodriguez, who was the deputy assistant over that thing. He called me, he goes, how far are you in? I go, I'm six, seven months in.

He goes, all right. He goes, fuck it. He goes, just keep going on then. You know what I mean? So I didn't really have them any break between those two cases. Wow. Boom, boom. So, you know, so before I called my boss, who was a Putz,

I called the U.S. Attorney's Office and laid it out to them. because generally speaking, if the U.S. Attorney's Office is okay with it, ATF ain't going to balk. Right. So I called them and explained what they go, well, other than somebody getting beat up and whatnot, anything else happened? They go, just send somebody out there to take a report that something was done to go get the statement that they ended up using against it.

Anyway, so when I went back and I told my boss, I go, hey, I already talked to the U.S. attorneys are good with it. He was like, okay, keep going then. No issues, you know, because it was a different whole. different reporting mechanism then. But, you know, and then that case was going on and we were going good. And it's after the Reno where we had gotten into that and we got voted in as prospect. And we'd been running back and forth for, you know, two, three months.

And prospect period for them back then was about three months. And they come up with, they're going to have an officer's run down to Mexico. And it's like, so I call our ad of Shay up of Mexico. And I go, hey, we got to come to, which I didn't know shit. I go, we're going to come to Mexico. I go, is it okay to bring our guns? He goes, yeah, you can bring your guns. He goes, you know, you just got to check them in at the embassy.

I go, no, no, no. I go, we're coming across with the club. He goes, you can't come into Mexico with any guns? He goes, and we're like, what's the big deal? He goes, because the reporting requirements here are, if you come into Mexico as a law enforcement officer, he goes, we have to tell the federally's to prosecute everybody that you're going to come in college. He goes, you might as well come across the border and say, he goes, you might as well come across the border. shoot yourself in the head.

Right. They're like, okay, well, how the hell do we get around this? So we had to start working our magic. So we put records in text that said that we had been caught smuggling and doing some other stuff that we told the club, if we go down to the border and we're going to have trouble get back, we're going to have trouble getting back, you know, we'll get back, but we're probably going to get arrested. So we had worked that out.

And then it was, so right at the last minute, they changed it. did the officers meeting in in uh in uh california they told informant and i they go they're like you guys don't have to go because they change the last minute they go they have enough prospects out there they go and they said next week you guys will probably get you guys will get your patches we'll just give them to you here so right on well they go down to this officer's meeting and darren kislauski goes there and he gets his patch So he's a patch member, okay? I think he held the patch the shortest of anybody in the history of ATF because what happened was the his informant old lady who got killed, she got pissed because ATF wasn't doing anything first.

She thought she should get some money or something. So she went to the club with his card. Now, the fatal error, of course, we're young. Again, we're not thinking, you know, cause his nickname that he used for the club. was cause okay i you know we we we still laugh about this till till this day but anyway that's what he did well they got she gave him the business card they start calling around if i get this wrong he'll correct me when i see him they start calling around and they found him at the long beach office so they found there in kislauski at the long beach office so you know darren like all of us

you try to scoot out you go home and he had a house with a garage and whatnot so he's comes back to his house. He goes in his house and he gets knock on the door. Junkie Ed, who was an international enforcer for the club, Sergeant Arms, he and some other members go in his house

and say, where you've been? He goes, what do you mean where I've been? I've been right here. They go, no, you have it. Because they had set up surveillance on him. And they go, what are you driving? He goes, I drove. I can't remember what he said he was driving. They go, no, you weren't. Because they'd broke in his garage and saw what he was, what he was. What he had in there?

so because he used to park a car down around the corner you know different cars so he can come and go those tactics have all changed so they took his patch right they didn't they didn't do anything to him because they're not that stupid if they're suspect that he's an ATF agent they're not going to do anything to him so he calls me and he tells you what's going on and I'm like holy shit you know the concern is are you okay and the second is how the hell are we going to circumvent ATF on this one You know what I mean? Because he's got to report back. And it wasn't like an hour later.

I get this call. I met the R undercover house in Las Vegas. And it's junkie Ed and Tramp, who's the international president. And they're on the phone. And of course, they obviously don't think I know anything about this. So I'm on the phone. And I go, hey, because Terry liked us. So he'd call us.

And I go, what's going on? He said, we got a problem with your buddy. I go, which one? He goes, cause. I go, what's the problem? Now, we had built a relationship with cause saying that we were doing business back in Midwest prior to coming out here. So here's what he said. He goes, I think cause followed you out here to continue his case on.

And when he saw you got in a club, he started getting around a club too. If he did you come and get after us. He goes, that's a big problem. And I'm like, you know, I'm like pretend I'm going, oh, fuck. I go, so I go, well, what do you guys? How do you propose? What are you going to do?

He goes, and then at this point, Tramp goes, we're going to kill him. Junkie, I goes, I'm going to get off the phone now. So he gets off the phone. So it's just me and Terry on the phone now. And I had this whole recording. And he's telling me, he goes, he goes, we got to do something. He goes, he goes, I don't expect that you'll do it because you'll be the first one they look at. He goes, but we got to do something.

So they were just talking about how they were, you know, because, because, of course, cause took all his stuff up and outed. But they had a starting place to look for him at his office, right? So at this point, we're like, oh, man, I don't know, we're hit. We're going to have to take a break. So, of course, I get off the phone with him. I got to make a call to my office and tell him what's going on. And I ended up calling my sack.

I didn't even talk to my boss, really, because he was a goof. And they're like, well, you guys got to shut it down. I go, I think we're good. Of course, you know, being optimistic, I go, I think we could survive it. We should be able to stay. We can get rid of cause. Yeah. But we should be able to stay.

They're like, you ain't fucking staying in that. So we had to go meet a couple guys that were our sponsors. And we ended up meeting them. And they hadn't even know what our own chapter didn't even know what was going on at the time. And Tony and I ended up turning our cuts into them and said, hey, we got to we got to bolt out of here for a couple months until we see what's going on. Right. You know what I mean? And then when did up happen.

Because in these investigations, you always have running affidavits from day one. We learned the hard way. So everything is going. As everything happens, the affidavit bill, the affidavit billed, the charges build. So if something like this happens, we can go right to the prosecutor with what we got before grand jury or even just get a warrants issued and go ahead and take everybody down. So that's what we did. We broke out of there. And then it was like the following week, we ended up pitting.

Las Vegas, a bunch of places in California. And there was another investigation that was going on down in San Diego. I think we ended up getting like 60 members out of that or something like that. But you guys are clean because they track it all back to cause. And you were just two guys associated with him who they thought was being investigated by cause. Fellow travelers. And you just went to the wind. So you didn't get that.

Yeah. They weren't looking at us like you were anything bad. Right. But, you know, we're stupid and naive to think that, oh, we could stay in this investigation. We'll be clean. They just think it's caused. Right. You know, it comes to a point where you're so invested in these investigations. Right.

That sometimes you get tunnel vision and you lose sight. But that's why we always had guys. There was a peer support program in ATIF, but it was guys that did these types of investigations. Yeah. Because Steve Martin happened to be a supervisor up in San Francisco at the time who had done those other things. So obviously he came down and talked to me and smacked me around a little bit and gave me my common sense. back and said, Frank, you can't. Yeah, yeah. You can't stay in. You got to go.

And then I didn't even think I had to move, but then my house, my tires got slashed on my G-car. And then there were a couple of bogos who were hanging around a building. And then, of course, ATF lost its mind on there. Right. So that's where it was, so what's going to happen to me now? So I'm talking to my wife. Of course, okay, so if you guys don't know me, I'm a big Beagle fan. We've had Beagles for 30 plus years.

I got three of them now. we had two then and uh they're going you guys you got to go out of your house and stay in a hotel for until we can move you that lasted one night and we went back to the house i told my wife i'd rather take my chance with the dogs being at the house i got guns yeah the thing is odds are i'm not going to say they wouldn't do anything because there are some looney tunes and whatnot but they know that if they really did something like that they don't like that federal it would come back the blowback would be tremendous right i mean that's that's the doesn't help me or my wife at the time we didn't have any kids but um so anyway so you know

i get so ATF being ATF i had no desire headquarters was the least place i wanted to be now at the time john cooper who's a very dear friend of mine when our case was having problems he he gets sent out from our special operations division with another guy Pete McCarthy to talk us about the issues and we rail into him and it's like god damn you guys you just suck and it wasn't even his fault because he just got there so when the case busted up they said okay pick places you want to go i said okay well i like to go to the midwest or to the south or whatever and i pick my four locations they said okay and write up a justification letter so i did they said okay you'll go to one of those four places.

The next morning I go in the office about 6 o'clock and there's a teletype that I've been transferred to headquarters to go work in our new undercover shop. I was not a happy camper. Not a happy camper at all. However, it's one of the best things I ever did because Coup had worked undercover. There was me, another guy, Craig Carrey, great, another undercover agent, Al Phoenix. So they were bringing guys into the branch who actually worked undercover and understood what was needed to get this thing off.

the ground. So I spent, you know, two years up there learning about that whole process and getting integrated with everybody else who was doing it, whether it was, you know, every part of the government, really. Right. And then, and then I was ready to go. Now, in the meantime, my wife and I, I was fine with the Beagles. My wife wanted kids. So we ended up going to rush and adopted a couple kids do at the same time. So I'm getting ready to push out. And I had a good relationship with a couple of deputy assistant directors who have been my sacks. And I go, well, this is where I want to go. And the one Malcolm Brady, really great guy. He goes, he goes, no, he goes, you're going to be, he goes, you're going to go be the supervisor in Youngstown in your hometown. I go, I really don't want

to do that, Malcolm. He goes, well, I'm going to tell you what, what's going to happen. You're going to do it or I'm going to fuck you. He goes, I'm going to put you somewhere you don't want to be. And I go, well, that's not nice, Malcolm. So I didn't even put him for the job. You have to put in for the job. I didn't get to put in for the job. I went for an interview.

I had my interview. And after the, uh, Tate was, he was the sack of Orleans. I had my interview two minutes ago. You goes, Frank, congratulations. You're going to Youngstown. I go, God, almighty. So which was good. I went to Youngstown.

And, you know, that got me to Youngstown. five years and then that's how we rolled into the Aryan Brotherhood case. Yeah, yeah, man. I mean, that sounds like a pretty crazy one. How did that start to come about for on your end? So there were Tom Doyle and a couple guys up at the East Lake Police Department in Lake Lake County. The Hells Angels have been operating in Cleveland and they had opened up a new chapter up in Lake East.

called it. And they'd always been involved in something, right? Well, they, and there was some Aaron Brotherhood members that they had been dealing with up there who were manufacturing machine guns. You know what I talk about people having no redeeming quality? This guy had no redeeming quality. A.J. Blumquist, just total whack job. So they say, hey, are you, so they call me, they said, hey, we got like four or five informants. Would you be willing to come up here? and interview them, and then we'll go from there, you know, if there's something that you guys think you want to do, being ATF, right? So we scheduled, we go up an interview, and we find two guys. Now, they didn't know each other. One was going to be, he was going to work on the Cleveland chapter

of the H.A. And we had a captain in Aryan Brotherhood who they had gotten out. He almost beat a guy to death in a bar, but he wanted to cooperate, right? He was a captain for, in the state of Ohio. So we went up and we taught, now I was a supervisor, right? Now, at that point, when you're a 14 or a group supervisor, Iraq, whatever, you're not supposed to work on a cover. You're supposed to oversee the crap, right?

Well, I had a really good sack that I know, Chris Sadowski, you know, he let me do a lot of things and a lot of bosses were never allowed to do because he let me go help out on Jay Dobbins' case. He let me go help on a couple of the Warlocks, all these cases that I was able to go play with. which was nice. And so, so we're going to start this investigation.

And we're going to, we're going to buy a machine, well, we're going to go meet AJ, because he can make machine guns stents. He was manufacturing them. So we get it all together, and we're going to go meet at this bar in Cleveland.

And so we show up, and I bring in another undercover from Virginia, Jeff Gratman. And he's going to, be the guy that gets introduced. Well, you know, I didn't dress like anything. So we're talking. And so I'm introducing him to Jeff and I go, he's going to go with you. And he goes, that won't work. I go, what do you mean? It won't work. And this is where informants. This is, you know, some people call him confidential human sources. We just call them informants, you know. He goes, he won't

do. I go, why? He goes, because I described you. I told him about you. And of course, I'm looking at him and I go his name was Fred I go Fred would you tell him he goes well I told him your name was junkyard I got saddled with that for almost two year and a half I go what the fuck junkyard he goes yeah I go what else did you tell him well that you did time with my dad and county okay so that's how we know each other I go okay and I go and what else did you tell him he goes that you and my dad would go into bars and you would wrestle bears for fun I'm like you're an idiot right so so we're sitting there and so i'm looking at jeff i go well you're going so i have to call my boss i i called i didn't call my i call my boss and i go hey i go here's a situation

i go i got to go to this meeting because if i don't go it's not going to go anywhere he goes all right well just go to the first meeting and back out well 18 months later there was no backing out because AJ, although he liked that, he loved me. He just took a real liking to me. I got a phone call from that guy. 7 o'clock. Every morning I had to be up and ready to record him because it was like clockwork. He had a construction.

It was called A.B. Construction. Very ingenious. And he would employ on the books, all of the A.Bs that were getting out on parole. Now, Tim Miracle, who is the adult parole officer for Ohio, he had all these guys on probation and parole so he knew all of them and what they were about yeah so anyway so we get into this negotiation what uh with uh with a j about machine guns so he won't get the kits i had to get the kits i give him the three machine gun kits at first he makes him in three days come back beautiful powder-coated function perfect so i said well let's see what he can do so i said i'm going to order 10

and of course the u.s attorney's office well how do you know he's going to give him to you and he I go, because these guys don't operate like that. I go, it's a bond. If they tell you they're going to do something, they're going to do it. Right. So we go, and I get him 10 kits, and about a week later, he brings him to me, right? And he brings me nine. And then he says, and then he goes, well, let's go back to my office.

He goes, I want to talk to you guys about something anyway. So I go, where's the 10th? But he goes, I'll show you. So we go back, and he goes in the back room and he pulls out this stand that he had powder-coated pink. and he put these little powder puff girls all over it as a joke. He goes, he goes, man, he goes, I was just joking around. If he goes, if you want, I'll powder coat it black. I go, no, no.

I go, I'll take that one. That's kind of cool because that's great jury appeal. I mean, you know what I mean? Look at his idiot. He don't even care. He's making guns that look. They're pink with powder puff girls on him. That's what his disregard.

Boy, AJ had ties into cops who were, you know, who were running information for him that were selling him body armor. I mean, this dude, he was a captain and erring brother, too. criminal, pure criminal, a lot of identity theft, Robert, you name it, he was into it. He was married to a nurse, trapped. He had a kid

who, you know, as we got around him, the kid ate Cheetos and Coke. That's all he ate. And he named him Dietrich Adolf Blumquist. Real treat, right? Yeah. So, so this starts to go. Well, while we're in there, you know, we go up and we're buying some dope off him.

So he pulls in, he goes, hey man, you guys ride motorcycles and at this point I'm like oh shit I go you know the ears go and I go yeah we ride motorcycles why what do you think and he goes well listen therein brotherhood has been trying to develop

a club nationally for years he goes and he goes and we got enough guys out right now that we're poised to do this I go no shit he goes we're going to start it here in Ohio I go so what do you need for me he goes you got five guys he goes I got five guys I can give five guys I go I got five guys I got five guys I know.

And I'm committing before I can even do anything, but we're going to ride motorcycles. So, hey. And I said, well, what's the objective here, AJ? You know, what are we doing? He goes, well, the objective is for us to kill the hell's angels and take over. Holy shit.

I go, that's a great plan. So, you know, we break. I mean, it's going, I mean, it's perfect because, you know, see, the thing is people don't know about ATF or really don't understand about ATF is a lot of law enforcement agencies when you talk about there's going to be guns there and these guys have a real potential for violence, a lot of agencies back off of that.

ATF, the more guns, the more violent criminal you are, that's our wheelhouse. We want you to have guns there. We want you to be violent because that gives us our whole crux to be in it because we used to get in these arguments what ATF about. Well, you're buying all kind of dope. We don't see a lot of guns. They're carrying them.

Most crooks won't get off the gun that they're using to defend themselves. you know, they got smart. They learned. Yeah. So anyway, so I go back and I talk to my sack, Chris, and I say, here's what's going on. I go, and I'm going to have to be in it because he's expecting me because they're going to run this like an AB council. You know, we're going to have members and whatnot. So it was like, man, I got five guys. And my very, very dear friend, Freddie Raines was the only state local guy who I just said, Fred, you want to work some under cover with us? And he was like he had no idea what he was getting into, none.

So, but that guy could buy dope off a rock. And, you know, and so we started down this road, right? We started getting to know each other. So we had like a, on St. Patrick's Day, we're going to bring our five guys and they're going to bring their five guys to a bar. So we bring our five guys in and we're talking to their five guys. And we have no idea who these guys are. They introduce us to themselves. And we spend a good amount of time.

there and we leave so we go get the brief by Tim Miracle and the in the in the task force guys because we had formed a task force up there and Tim goes do you guys know who you met with I go you know one guy named David another guy J.B they go he goes dude David is the head of the AB for the state of Ohio he brought it back from Phoenix he goes he just got out like six months ago for six counts of attempted murder and he killed a guy in jail instead of him. stab the guy and shot a guy. But they always kept running this stuff concurrent. He's dead now.

He got his head about sought off out in Victorville in federal penitentiary by the A.B.'s Because they thought he was stealing. But anyway, so we meet these guys. And it's like, he's got a J.B. 25 years for murder. Polly. He got hit for Hullet dope between Oklahoma. And he got Motor, who was, he was robbery, whatever. You know, all these guys had bought, which was.

wait, right. I mean, it was right where we wanted to be. It was like, this couldn't get any better, right? Now, our thought was how do we control the beast, you know, without getting too much shit with these guys, right? Well, so on Hitler's birthday, on April 20th, that's when we had our coming out party. And the club was called the Order of Blood. And it's like, okay, which I didn't know anything about this, we're getting this whole historical, well, you know, when Hitler went to prison and all his generals and our officers that

came out, he gave him this, this, you know, this metal, the order of blood. So that's where our patch came from. That's where the name of our club come from. So while they're designed in the patch, this, this always makes me laugh. So it was an eagle, right? And it had two thunderbolts on the back of it, an eagle, like the AB Falcon Eagle. And then I'm like, well, why aren't we using, why don't we just use a swastika? They're like, well, that would you just draw too much attention. But on the front of our cuts, we had a big swastika support you look it up right so these guys so anyway so we just start rolling with these guys we came out and you know people don't understand the underground so our first coming out party with

these guys we were up in ohio and it was a hell's angels event and this is where we're going to bring out we're going to sell all our nazi gear you know our swastikas our club support stuff right our thunderbolts and so we're there the hells angels have their tent and in fact i think sunny barger was coming in to sign book so there was a bunch of them there and uh and and in in the caveat that so in oh high up in northeast oh hi there weren't supposed to be any new clubs that started right they're like that's it no new clubs well a couple of the ab were friends with the hells angels they knew them they didn't trust them nobody trusted each other So I get invited to this meeting with the informant in AJ.

And then there's two Hell's Angels there. And we go to this Denny's and we're sitting there. And, you know, most clubs will kiss their ass just because they fear them. Right. Well, we're sitting there. And they tell them, hey, we're starting a club. They go, what club? They go, an AB club.

And they go, well, you know, we're not supposed to study. They go, we don't give a shit what you say. We're starting to call. And this is the first time. This is why it was so great to be in this. You didn't care what the club said because your gang was a prison gang. Right. And they knew it.

They knew it. And I'll tell you a story that drove that point home to the Hells Angels real quick. So they're like, okay, you know, just all right, they didn't balk. So we started the club and we showed up at that event. You know, they're, Hells Angels, they knew we were coming. But anyway, that ain't even. The best part is, we're there about a half hour to an hour. next thing you know we got the grand wizard we got a couple nighthawks we got the grand dragon from the

from the clan they're coming up welcome brothers we're you know good to see you know it's so good to see other people like us out here and we're like i'm telling you right now they'd let us go about another six months in that investigation we'd have had our sheets inside that no doubt in my mind no doubt. Because, you know, because people who, you know, a lot of the old school, the clubs,

you know, a lot of it is about white supremacy. Right. I mean, they've gotten away from that. Like the Hells Angels, you know, they used to wear a lot of,

a lot of things were swastika, thunderbolts. And then once Germany came in, they couldn't wear that anymore. They get fined. However, they were buying our stuff and not getting caught war in it.

That's like a lot of clubs, you know, they'll wear, the symbol, you know, because it stands for supremacy, whatever. It was odd to see Hispanics wearing it. But okay. But anyway, so, you know, as time went on, we had a really good relationship with both Cleveland chapters.

But as we grew as a club, we became, we started to get more powerful because people started to recognize we weren't subservient, we didn't answer. And that we truly were, you know, you guys, because all our records showed that we're, you know, that we were criminals for the most part. Now, we kept a couple guys that were clean just for throwdowns. And if you want to hear a funny story, I'll tell you this one. So you know how you think you're smarter than the average bear? Yeah.

So we had been preparing to do this case for like three, four months getting, because at the pinnacle at this case, we had 20 undercovers running, male and female. Okay. So we started out with five. So we had to, how we know it, we had to get all that down, right? So we had seized this Fleetwood Cadillac, and it was an older one, but it was nice. So that was my car because I was supposed to be the, you know, the guy, right? So we're getting ready to go up to our house.

And we had a big safe up there and everything where we would store stuff because we had guys flying in from all over. But I had just picked a bunch of guys up. Well, I picked three of them up in Pittsburgh. So we're going to our house. We dropped a couple of bikes off that we had. had purchased to get some work done okay so it's like October it's going into November and so it was getting late today and we're going up to Cleveland now it's like if we go to the house to drop off all our stuff because some guys had crads and their computers because we had to do our work we were

going to stash them to say it would it would if we went to the house and then had to go to the west side of Cleveland it's like an extra two hours the bikes so it was getting late and we're like okay, who's in favor of going to the house? Everybody's like, no, let's just go get the bikes and be done with it. And I had like $5,000 I had to pay to pick them up with the work that was done. So we break from our route and we're going down Route 90. Now, there's me. I had long hair and a big beard.

Everybody else shaved like this, shaved head, beard. And we're in a fleet with Cadillac. And we're driving. And we're going traffic. It's, you know, it's traffic. I think the speed limit was seven. We were like 75, 76. And we pet, there's an interdiction team sitting off on the left that nobody told us that they hang out over there.

That's just poor intelligence on our part. We pass this interdiction team. And we all look at them and they look at us like, we are hit better than shit. I mean, as soon as we pass them, boom, boom, boom, they come out. There's three of them. They pull up behind us. They pull me over. And of course, now we're enrol.

So now I've got to be the asshole. So the one officer walks up to the side and he hits on a window. He said, roll your window down. So I roll it down like an inch. I go, can I help you? He goes, he goes, well, do you know why I stopped you? I wasn't speeding. He goes, yeah, you were speeding.

I go, I was keeping with the flow of traffic, dude. I go, that wasn't speeding. He goes, roll the window down. So I roll the window down. And as I'm rolling the window down, and I go, and no, you cannot have consent to search. the car. So he looks right at me like, okay, we're going to play this game. Now, remember how I said we had a throwdown guy? Yeah, yeah. So Wayne Lester, who was a newer agent, who we had to bring guys in who because we just had a shortage of guys, right, who had capability, but never been in this

kind of situation. So Wayne didn't have a criminal history. Now, prior to getting into the car, I said, okay, does everybody have their guns in the trunk and in their bag? So if we get stopped, We're not going to have a problem. Yes. So as soon as we get pulled over, Jeff Graham and goes, fuck, I got my gun. I go, all right, I go take the magazine, throw it in the front, throw it in a glove box, throw a gun under his seat. Because in Ohio, that's just a simple improper handling of a firearm, right?

So the guy's going, I go, and you can't have consent to search. So they come over and they pull us out of the car. And so they put me and Wayne in a car and they put Jeff and David's. Dan Osboldt in the other car. And Wayne's looking at me, goes, what's going on? I go, well, if somebody's going to jail for that gun, it's you because you don't have a criminal history. So the rest of us are, you know, two, three-time felons.

I go, so you're going to have to take the hit. And Wayne's like, what? I go, yeah, if they don't give you a simple, you're going to have to own the gun. If they ask who's gun, that is, it's yours. So they bring out the drug dog, right? Now, we had cleaned this car. There's nothing going to hit on this car. So they walked the dog around the car once.

nothing. I go, good, dude, we're out of here. Nothing. They walked a dog around the car a second time. That officer put his hand on the window ledge. Dog sat. Because I have an alert. I go, a son of a bitch, passive alert. He got alert my ass, right? So now they're going to get in the car. They get in the front seat within, you know, a minute. I got a gun. So now, now, mind you, this is the first day out on this investigation. We spent quite a good bit of money getting. I'm going to, you can't, you can't. You can't. can't believe it, right? So we're supposed to be better in this because Dan's worked a case. I worked a case. Jeff worked multiple cases. We should know better, right? So I sit there and I say, Wayne, I'm going to have to out myself. He goes, what do you mean out yourself? I go, I'm going to

help myself to protect the case. He goes, what are you going to do? I go, don't worry about it. So I start banging my head on the window of this, of this cruiser, right? So sergeants like yelling me, shut up, shut up, stop it. So I'm about beating myself unconscious. finally observe is what the fuck do you want i go i need to talk to you so he pulls me out i go can we go to the back of the car so he pulls he goes what's going on i go all right well i'm going to explain something to you i go might be a little bit uh sketchy for you to believe i go but i'm going to lay something down to you i go i'm an at ftf agent i go and these guys are my targets i go and right now you're fucking up my deal and he's looking at me and i go okay if you want to verify who i am

go i got a bag in a back of that car i go this is the bag and then inside if there's a compartment that you got to, you know, pull some shit apart and get into. I go, my cred's in there. He goes, he's looking at me. I go, just, I go, but you are the only one that could search that because if these other guys, it's going to be a problem. So he goes in there and I can see him messing around. He pulls my cred.

He looks. He shuts him. Now, mind you, while we're on the side of the road, about three or four more cruisers show up, I'm watching our seats get launched out of our car because they're tearing it apart, right? So he goes, well, how do you want to handle this? Now, at this point, the lieutenants that were on our task force, they both show up. And he goes, well, what do you want to do about the gun? I go, that little dude back there that's in a car with me, I go, just give him an improper handling.

He don't have a criminal history. I go, the other guys, just let him go for right now. And he's like real cool about it. He goes, okay, all right. So anyway, long story short, after three hours on the side of the road, our cars all, they're like, okay they're wrapping up and then like okay we got to put our seats back in we got to do okay so we get back in the car and after something traumatic like that the speed limit was 70 i think i was going 40 because we're all looking at each other like we're we're supposed to be so much better than this

yeah just this is day one so i'm driving down a road car comes flying up behind me lights me up I'm going, you've got to be shit. I mean, I'm like, I might as well just, let's just quit right now. Pulls me over. It's the sergeant. And to his, they never said a word about me in the case what on. I mean, I give them that credit. They never said a word to anybody about me.

But he comes up, he goes, you forgot this. And he hands me my $5,000 that I forgot that he even took off me when he searched me. I got, I became so tunnel visioned. Holy shit. Yeah, I'm like, God Almighty. So we go, we pick up the bikes. Now it's dark and it's cold. So the other guys take off in a car and we put all our gear on and our cuts on now.

Now we've got our, you know, and we start rolling down the same road, right? We're on two bikes. Now our face are all messed up. We got helmets on. Dude, we passed the same interdiction unit. They're out right behind us. The sergeant, because he must not, he rolls up and he's looking at us. And I'm on there.

I'm on the inside just on it. I pulled my mask down and I'm like as if to say we're real come on. And then all of a sudden they backed out and they went. I mean, you want to talk about a night of just self-reflection. You know, just like dudes. Everything that could have went wrong went wrong. You know, it did. Which woke us up because that case was different than any other case I went because those

guys scrutinized. They had security guys. They wanted to know everything about you. They were constantly looking at guys getting out of prison. If they made deals, you're allowed to talk to this one. Don't talk to that one. You know, so as we, we started off in, in, in, actually, our house was in Geneva on the lake. And then it was beautiful. Overlooked the lake. It was a big house. We, you know, we all kind of lived there, came and went and we kind of expanded into a couple cities. But the chapters, the chapters started

to grow. You know, we started to get more members. As guys got out of prison, guys were bringing in people from prison. So it was, you know, a lot of dope. And you know, the one good thing about it is, we, so we had this house, right? And it had a big flagpole. So it's like there was no secret who we were, right? A bunch of Nazis. So we flew a Nazi flag. My boss rode by there one time just to check the house out. I get a call because you got to take that flag down. I go, why? He goes, I take the flag down. He goes, it's a Nazi flag.

I go, we're Nazis. I guess what we are. He goes, no. He goes, it's too much. So we ended up flying a pirate flag instead. However, all those people up in that area, we had people, I'm not shitting you, people would just knock on our door because we'd be outside. Everybody's tattooed, you know, washing pipe.

People would just knock on our door asking if we want to buy dope and guns. We had these two idiots that work for the city. You know, those big steel manhole covers. It was like Jeremiah Johnson, they would drop stuff off at our house with the big swastikas or thunderbolts on them. And then they would drop off these manhole cover, right? So one of the guys ends up asking goes, hey man, where are you getting these? They go, we're just pulling them off the street. He's like, so you leave the big holes on the street. We ride our motorcycles, you idiot, you know? But they would, I mean, we had, there were councilmen that would stop up and talk to us. You would think, you know, in today's age, you know, you talk about racism.

People just don't know how much racism exists still today. It were people, you know, we used to sell our gear. People would buy our gear tenfold. We had guys that were buying off of some black guys. So we had a tent that these guys would give us on the main street of Geneva on Lake. I roll up with one of the other guys and I see two of our guys standing there who are buying dope off a black guy.

He's wearing our AV support shirt. I walked up. They're laughing. I go, dude, you better get that off. I said, because if David Snow shows up over here, he'll kill that motherfucker. I go, you guys, this isn't. I go, serious business.

Serious business. They're not going to laugh at that, right? So anyway, but we had people that were buying and wearing our stuff all over the place. I mean, we had clubs when they got in trouble. They would call us to help defend them or work things out for them. And this is over time.

We got to be pretty good friends with a guy named he's not. He's out of the club now because of our, I think our friendship, Willie Beard, who was in, who was in Hells Angels. And he took to us. And he said, hey, you guys run your operations good. You do stuff the right way because you guys aren't any bullshit. You handle your business. And we did.

There were times where things would come up. where we would have to handle our business, you know, where guys would try, you know, test us. And then it was on, you know, and it was over quickly. Because we did, we had a lot of big dudes in our club, and it was, you know, it would get contentious because, you know, we had to pagans. We would go to pagan territory.

They're like, well, you guys are up in Northeast Ohio. How can you have no affiliation with the Hells Angels? We don't. In fact, one of the original council members for therein brotherhood was a pagan. So we ended up getting real good with the pagans. We had some affiliation with the outlaws. And we also had affiliations with all the other clubs that were up and around in that area. So we were running.

We ended up having guys in Akron up in Geneva on the lake and then over in Sharon, Pennsylvania. So we had three chapters by the time. And this thing was ballooning up. You know, we had guys calling from the penitentiary that were calling us to join. You know, when we get out, you know. So, I mean, it was, and they were in, and the beauty of it was they were all great violent targets. We had this one guy. There's some twist of this story that, so if you got it, if you got the time for this.

Yeah, yeah. Jay, J.B., who was a member of there in Brotherhood, right, he went down for murder, okay? He was actually, and we knew this, but he didn't know we knew this. He was actually an informant for Tim Miracle, who was the adult parole officer, right? So while this case is going on, he's informing, but guess who he's informing on? Only us. None of the other ABs, not David, because he was deathly afraid of David, right? Everybody was.

We were deathly afraid of David. You know, look at David. He didn't look like much, but cuckoo. Anyway, so John Beeson's starting to get too powerful. He's starting to want to do too many things. It's going to get us down a road we don't want to go. So it's like, so how do we? get rid of him because we had to get rid of AJ too and I'll tell you how we got rid of him.

This was before J.B., but so we, J.B. had showed some of the guys in a club that he had a gun, right? So based on that, they executed a search warrant and they sealed the warrant and they arrested him. Okay. So J.B. had a bad heart. So he goes, he goes, because he's going for parole revocation now. because he's out on parole, and now he's facing federal charges. Well, he gets charged in federal court, and his attorney in open court says

that he's an active informant, because ATF signed him up too. He's an active informant for ATF and adult parole authority informing on the Hells Angels and Aaron Brotherhood. Now, I get this information that's like, woo-hoo, we can get rid of them. So I called the U.S. Attorney's Office.

I go, are we allowed to put that out? They go, no. Because if you guys put it out, something happens, that were liable. Right. I go, well, what if I direct some people

to go get a copy of the transcript and they read it the day? You can do that because it's public information. So I did. So I had Pauly and David Snow go get the transcript. So they called me on the way back

from the courthouse of Cleveland. And David's straight out. He goes, that motherfucker's dead. He goes, he's a snitch. He's a rat. Now, Polly and him were real good friends, meaning J.B. We don't know the whole story.

He goes, fuck him. He goes, he's dead. Holy shit. And I'm like, yeah. Well, anyway, so needless to say, so J.B. gets locked up, right? In about two weeks later, he's dead. Not from anything we did, but because he, his heart gave out. Oh, wow.

However, though. So in the meantime, once it was public, I was able to call Willie Beard and said, Willie, there's a problem with J.B. Blah, blah, blah. He goes, well, let me know what you find out. So, J.B. G.B. dies in prison.

Well, to our advantage, I call up Willie. And I go, Willie, I said, we don't have to worry about J.B. anymore. He goes, huh? I go, he's gone. He goes, oh, got to go. So now these sons of bitches think that we had him off. Which gives us so much credibility.

Right. Right. It's unbelievable. I mean, it's awesome. Right? We had a lot of things to go our way that way. We just kept mounting. Because the first, when we were in this club, it was like, well, everybody had to be like a criminal that did five years.

Then it was a violent crime. Then it was murk. This was self-perpetuating within the other clubs. Not us. We weren't putting this stuff out. So in the way we got rid of AJ was AJ again. So in his infinite wisdom, the guy that was actually the informant for the Hells Angels, they decided to go down to a Hells Angels bar in East Cleveland. And AJ does a burnout in their bar.

Which hangers down. right yeah well so the next this yeah as it should and the next day there's these drag races right now it's a heavy hell's angels presence we're going so we had a bunch of guys we we probably had 10 or 12 guys at that point go with us i mean everybody went so and a j drove his truck because at this point we got to do something because the hell's angels want to kill him they literally want to kill because they know jay so we pulled into this event and there's Hells Angels posted all over the place right and so we roll in and so it's me J.B. and and David Snowd. David Snow never took an officer position at all. It was it was it was me

J.B. and in AJ at the time. So AJ was kind of out at this point. So David goes, he goes, hey, everywhere you see Hell's Angel you guys go post up. Because everybody got a gun. Yeah, go post up. So our guys were angled out and we're posted up next to their guys. So Johnny Merchant, who is just this big animal and face, they're standing over there. So I go over with J.B. And we're talking and JV. And Merch is like, where's AJ?

We're going to kick his ass. We're going to kick his ass. And now all these guys, nobody's young. You know, everybody's over 40 years old approach of 50. Yeah. You know, and this stuff. So it's like children. Anyway.

So J.B. goes, you're not touching anybody in our club. I go, if there's anybody going to be disciplined in him, it'll be us. What's the problem? So he told him what's gone. He goes, all right. He goes, all right. He goes, we want AJ. We're going to, he goes, and J.B.

goes, just stand by. He goes, junkyard, come with me. So we go back and David's standing over there. Now, David, okay, so just a little background on David. David got convicted of six counts of attempted murder because he held his girlfriend and was playing Russian roulette before somebody escaped in an house called police, right? You got 15 years. He came up for parole in eight.

When he went before the parole board, he told him, fuck you. I'm not telling you I'm sorry or anything. So they sent him to the Youngstown Mack Security Prison, where he orchestrated the Lucasville riots from there. While he was in prison, we got from the guys that we talked to, the security guys that work in the prisons, he stabbed the guy. He actually shot a guy in the head, but he didn't die. But they ran everything concurrent.

When he got out of prison, now this is J.B. And I'm saying he was living under his mother's trailer because he was in solitary 23 hours a day. Like you couldn't go through a drive-through because he goes, I'm not talking to the box. I mean, and when he first came around, this dude, he spent most of his, you know, teenage years dry cleaning. So he would wear dockers and polo. in the worst tattoos you ever seen in your life. He was balding thin, but just violent is hell. But you never know that if you just talked to him and met him.

Seemed like half-ass normal guy. So we go back over and we're talking to David. And David goes, he goes, all right, here's how it's going to go. He goes, you go back and tell them motherfuckers. if they touch one of us, he goes, we will green light every hell's angel across the country. At that point, I've been in other clubs that I've been around other clubs. I've never felt that much power in my life. Yeah, that we're going to go over there and tell them this.

And it was, okay, I go, J.B., that's your call. So we walk over there and they're, and they know who David is. and JV. said, I just got one message to pass to you. He goes, David said,

if you touch one of our members, we're going to greenlight all your people across the country. They looked at us. You saw their faces. Everything changed immediately. Because they knew he had that power. Right.

You know, or he could get to those people who had that power. Right. You know. And so things kind of changed. You know, the format changed.

changed and then you know they were having an officers meaning this is where we're kind of going to be seen by all the other clubs so we have these things called death marches because we never knew how they were going to turn out it's just you had to go do it because that's what was required so usually it's only a couple three three members that are allowed to go usually the officers that go to these things and then the hell's angels lecture you and tell you how they're going to extort you for all their events that you have to prepay for and everything right so so I'm sitting there and face goes, hey, we're going to have this thing down here. I go, hey, man, none of our guys have ever been any of this.

I go, you mind if we come? Like, I bring more. He goes, yeah, bring whoever you want, which saved our ass. So we go down this long road. And, of course, our cover team is watching the drag races. They're not watching us. So we go down this long path and there's this tent, right? So all the other clubs are sitting there.

And here's probably like six or seven of us. And they're saying, hey, this is a new. club, order of blood, and a couple of the clubs tripped up and say, hey, we thought you said there wasn't going to be any new clubs. They said, shut the fuck up. They're here. And then they kind of started to figure out what we were about, right? So this meeting breaks up. Now, Roy Bootser was the longest prospect in the history of the Hells Angels. I think he prospected for three years. That's a long time. So we're, so they asked us to stay back. There were two or three other Hells and this prospect, Roy Bootser.

So they asked us to hang back and we're talking. So I'm looking out at a corner of my eye. And Roy's putting on his sap gloves. He's turning his sought off shotgun towards us. And I'm like, so I bump up a couple of guys. Are you guys seeing this bullshit? So it was like, we close ranks into the Hells Angels because it's like, if he's going to shoot one of us, he's got to shoot them, right?

And J.B. didn't see it. He goes, what's going on? I go, I got time to explain. I close it up. So they start talking about what needs to happen and how we have to send some guys down to the H.A. bar so that they can apologize, which David was vehemently against. But we're like, David, we got to exist here. We'll take care of that business. Let them.

You know, we're kind of big because the plan was, again, to kill all of them. So it's like, hey, let's just think they're in control. You know, we're kind of guiding, David. Let them think we're in control. So, and then let them go apologize. So two guys went down there, apologize. guys. So they couldn't do anything because we had closed ranks around our guys. So they just broke it up. So as we're walking back up the hill, J.B. looks at me. He goes, what the hell was that all about?

I go, dude, they were getting ready to shoot us with that shotgun. He goes, what? I go, yeah. So I told my guys, I go, we're going to kill everybody here that's not wearing our patch and we're dropping our shit and getting out of here. And he looked at me, he goes, junkyard. He goes, I only got one problem with that. And I go, what is he goes, you need to fucking tell me that when you're going to do shit like that. I'm like, okay, cool. Well, I'm telling you now. He goes, he goes, because they didn't care. It was like, you know, the patch was something that was just a novelty for them. Right.

To be able to ride around and be a club. Right. But the brand, the AB brand is what kept them together. It's what kept all of us together because we're the only guys that were part of an AB thing that never really went through the whole process of becoming an AB inside the joint. Right. You know, which was unique in and of itself. I mean, they took pictures of us and sent them inside the joint to see if anybody knew us

or anything like that. But, you know, we were pretty much on equal standing with those guys. So how, you know, go ahead. No, I'm just curious because, you know, you're talking about a very interesting dynamic here, right? You're talking about the Hells Angels and the pagans and these motorcycle gangs who their guys sometimes get sent to prison. And when they do get to send to prison, I imagine generally have to rely on the Aryan Brotherhood, which isn't a motorcycle gang, it's a prison gang. It's a major protective and a violent force inside a prison.

So now all of a sudden, the Aryan Brotherhood is, they're sort of outside the law when it comes to these motorcycle gangs, right? Like they have a way more reach than a lot of these motorcycle gangs do. Well, so, you know, every time you go in a club, you learn their, you know, their background, their history, right? So of course, the Aaron Brother is going to tell you, at least like the Aaron Brother in Ohio was brought from Arizona. That's where David brought it back from, right? So in Arizona started from California.

So you're going to learn the lore of that. And so we were talking to David about that because he did not like the Los Angeles. He hated him. And I'm like, David, what's the rub? He goes, well, he goes, it goes back to the riots in the 60s. He goes, when we were, he goes, you know, he goes, we were riding with the, blacks, he used another term, right? He goes, he goes, we went to the

Hell's Angels, you know, to see if they were with us. And they said, no, we're not, we're not white, we're Hell's Angels. And to this day, that carries. Like, they remember that. So like in state, in federal prison, they're okay. State

prison, they keep in way. Now, most clubs don't allow you to become an Aryan Brotherhood member and being a club, right? Aaron and Brother don't care if you, if you're in a club or not. You know what I mean, but the clubs don't want you because what happens is, is divided loyalty then. And who has the bigger stick? Now, you know, we got taught a lot about their end brotherhood, you know, I mean, we were buying off of guys. We bought off a black. We

bought off the Mexican mafia. We bought anybody because the color was green, right? If it was green and we could make money. So, you know, when you look at the hierarchy of white supremacists, right, You have the true believers. But the Aryan Brotherhood is more, it's a prison gang. You know, when they're out, they're clickish. They do stuff, but it's all about pushing money back into the prison to help those guys. It's not like, you know, NSM and, you know, war, all these other, you know, whites of nationalists. It's not about that.

They're all based on an ideology based on religion. The Aryan Brotherhood is not based on, like, Christian religion. it's not based on that at all. So it's based on white is right. It's our group of guys. We do, we do. We hold the power, right? So when David made that statement to them,

it kind of changed everything from the Lake East guys are like, hey, these guys are good, you know? And in the Cleveland chapter, we started to get rubs with because they saw power shift and dynamic where a lot of the other puppet clubs, the smaller support clubs were looking to us. We were real good about that. We'd go to their events.

We'd pony up a bunch of money. We were buying loyalty. I'll tell you a quick story. So they used to have these officer meetings, right? And so there had been some friction with us in a couple clubs, especially with the Hells Angels. And it was coming to a head. So we're riding to this earth dogs, was the name of this club. They got a real small clubhouse.

But we're going to go over to the Bourne Free. Now they were a single chapter club, but they had a lot of members, like 40 members. and we had become pretty tight with this guy. So we were going to go over to their clubhouse first in and ride over together. Well, while we're riding over there, there was four of us. Yeah, there was four of us. Well, there's a pack coming towards us. And we're like, well, who the fuck is that?

Well, it was the hell's angels. They had like eight members and like two or three prospects. I'm like, something's fucked up. That ain't right. They never bring that many people to these days. So we get over to the, to the Bourne Free Clubhouse, and we walk in and two talls to president, a nice guy. And we have become friends with some of their real good friends with some of their guys.

And Truthel goes, somebody's fixing to get fucked up. And we're like, us? He goes, he goes, that's the way he looks. He goes, dude, he goes, I don't know. The hell's the angels got to rub with you guys. And I go over what? He goes, well, the swordsmen were saying you guys were in their territory selling dope. I go, we don't even go over there.

What the fuck are they talking about? That is a puppet club for them, you know, for the angels. So we're getting ready to leave. But this is how much loyal to TV. guys had for us they go look if you want they go we'll invite the hell's angels back to our club house and he goes we'll hide in the closet with shotguns and shit and when they come in we'll kill them all we're like all right fucking sounds like a good planet because at this point it's self-preservation if that's what it comes back to right that's what it comes down to i'll give a shit you know i mean i

want to go home and see my family right so so we go over to this earth dog clubhouse and you know we go in and they're, you know, reading a riot act and they're telling they want everybody's social security numbers and this and that so they could start checking everybody, but they really wanted to check us. And myself and grandma are in there, and we're saying out loud because we're just a fight. You go, we're not giving you our shit. We're not giving you anything. And like the other clubs are like, look, it's like being in third grade where you bark at the teacher and the other clubs are like looking around going, holy shit. And then they're like, and there's not to be any, you know, shit go down while we're here.

So if you got a problem with another club, you handle it. So, of course, we did the exact opposite. So when the meeting broke up, the president of his swordsman walked out towards the, was walking towards the bonfire. So we scooped him up. And we're like, and we're getting his ass about what he's saying. And of course, Goose, who's no longer in a club,

he's a big dude and a couple other guys, they're watching us. We're blatant defiance of them. and he comes walking over, he will not talk to us, and he starts, didn't I tell you to the other guy in the swordsman? Didn't I tell you you guys aren't supposed to handle any business? And he's looking at him going like, but they scooped me up, right? Now, in the meantime, we didn't know how shit was going to go.

So Freddie and I think it was Oz, those guys had gotten into a position of a crossfire. Because if it broke, again, it was four against whoever wanted to draw their guns, right? So anyway, they bitch at them. We get on our motorcycles and we leave. Now, Osbold and Grabman were going to meet some of the pagans in Youngstown because they had a deal. So Freddie and I go to this truck stop and we're going to grab something to eat. And, you know, you try not to take stuff personal. But now I took this personal.

So I called up. Willie Beard. And I said, Willie, I go, what the fuck is Goose's problem? He goes, what do you mean? I go, we're just at this meeting. He goes, what did he do? I go, he's telling us. He wants this. He wants that. He goes, well, you know, goose can kind of get like a Gestapo. I go, stop right there. I go, do you know who the original Gestapo was? Because the fucking Nazis, us, we're the Gestapo. We don't get told what to do. I go. And so Freddy's eaten. And I'm watching him because he's like, where are you going with this? I said, I'm going to tell you something, Willie. I said, you motherfuckers want to go, we'll go with you any time you want.

I go, you just tell us where and when. And he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. He goes, we're not looking to fight a two front war because this is when they were battling. And they basically got pushed out of Philadelphia when the pagans busted him out of Philadelphia. He goes, we're not looking to fight at two, you know, a two front war with you guys. I go, I go, there's not going to be a fight. I go, you guys just won't see it coming, Willie. And he's like, God damn it.

you know, and after that, after that, I'm telling you, we tried to poke that bear every chance we could get what the hell's angels. And they would, they would get so livid, but they would never jump. They would never jump at us, ever. And it's just because not that we were a bunch of tough guys, but what would ensue if it happened. Right. What they knew would happen.

Right. Or what they believed what would happen. So, you know, so that was, that was, I mean, you talk about, it was one of those times in a club where. It was like, man, this is where, you know, you got big dogs, but all the other guys are looking at you going, this could be a problem because this isn't these guys who are in a club, they don't have a criminal record or they're afraid to go back to prison

because that's their home. Right. You know, so it was kind of unique in that way. So what was the tripping point for this investigation that led to, you know, you guys closing the net on it? I had a thumb sucker as an ASAC. I mean, he was scared, like denied even having meetings at the USA's office with the sack. I don't remember being there.

It was a fucking Saturday morning. Who comes in on a Saturday morning to have a meeting about what we're going to do? He wanted to shut that case down from the minute because he had no idea. You know, thank God for guys like Steve Martin, who were deputy assistant directors at the time, that were fighting our battles at the headquarters level, keeping our cases alive. Yeah. Now, Chris Siddowski, who was my sack, he was there, but the ASAC wasn't passed any information up and down. So, you know, so what did it up happen?

The biggest thing that happened that shut it down was because, like I said, we were getting into some scenarios with, you know, with the, I could tell you, countless stories about shit that happened with the pagans. It almost became a big problem. But the big tipping point was I get a call from Willie Beard at like 10 in the morning. This guy never was up at that time. He was a nocturnal animal. You know what I mean? He goes, I got to meet you. I go, okay.

I go when? He goes, as soon as you can. I go, wait. I go, he goes, when could you meet me? I go, give me an hour. And then he goes, he goes, and I had my car swept. I go, okay. So I know there's a problem.

So I go, where we're going to meet? He goes, meet me up at the McDonald's. I go, okay. I go, we going anywhere? He goes, no. So I had two guys that were at the house with me. I said, look, I got to go meet Willie. I have no idea what this is about.

I go, but I need you to go up there and just cover me because I don't know what's going on. Willie and I had a pretty damn good relationship. So I pulled him to McDonald's. He's in there. He goes, come on, let's get my car. So I go sit in his car. And I'm waiting for him to put it in drive because I ain't going anywhere. at them. I'm going to stop that.

And he pulls out this envelope, and he hands it to me. And I'm looking at it. And it's addressed to the hell's angels, you know, like he's chapter. He goes, open it up and tell me what you think. So I open up, I pull out this letter.

And I'm looking at it. And what it is, is a picture of Jeff Grabman when he was a warlock and Derek Kozlowski when he was a warlock. They identified Jeff correctly. And they, and they identified Derek Kozlowski as another agent who we called Bailey, right? But Jeff had slimmed down.

He really didn't look as much like that. And he's, I'm looking at it. Of course, my ass is puckered. And I'm kind of just looking. He goes, do you know those guys? I go, no. He goes, because they identify. I go, these guys ain't in my club.

He goes, they're not. I go, no. I don't know who the fuck these guys are, Willie. I go, what's going on here? He goes, well, we got mailed this and the Cleveland got mail. this letter, identify you guys. He goes,

we've been having meetings. He goes, we don't believe those are your guys either. He goes, however, somebody might be trying to get in your club

and infiltrate you guys. You need to be careful. I'm like, holy shit. Okay, so I'm like, okay, so I grabbed the letter. I go back to the house and that's another one

of these, son of a bitch. So I call, well, we were going to try to get around it, but the two state police guys, that we had that were working with us from Pennsylvania, man, they went right to their captain. And it was like, because we know they're going to talk to our people

and there's no coming back for that. We thought we could salvage it, really, because they weren't actually accusing us of anything. Right, right. And we weren't really doing business with them. Because at this point, we had got really tight with the pagans. And we went to a wedding. So all this was happening at the same time.

So we went to a pagan wedding, wedding for one of the pagan members. And we didn't wear our colors or anything like that. And they had been talking to us, because they were talking about us flipping patches and becoming pagans. The Hells Angels wanted us to become a prospect club for them up in Erie. We're like, no, no, no, no, because we like our own thing. So we go to this wedding.

In about an hour into the wedding, Lucky, who was the guy getting married, he goes, hey, there's some guys in a back want to see you guys. Like, okay, but only your officers can come. So it was me, Dan, and Jeff. We go back there. There's 10 pagans sitting back there, three of which are mother club members,

which are there, that's their pinnacle. There's 13 of them that run the entire club. And then there's the rest of them that are there. And we're sitting there going, all right? And they're like, okay, who are you guys? They go, we know you're Aaron Brotherhood, but what do you want? What do you want with us?

And I'm like, we want to do business with you guys. And then Poki, who's dead now, who was a pagan? This guy. he he was a Puerto Rican who had a swastika on his arm right and so we were doing drug deals with him and one of the guys said pokey why do you have a swastick on your arm you're a Puerto Rican he goes that's so that's so my daughters don't date any of those black guys I go that's a fucked up philosophy dude I mean you know anyway but he's in there and he starts chirping

he goes those guys got Ohio and Pennsylvania tabs the mother club members shut up she's shut up up. We don't care about that because they thought of us as a cash cow how we could get, you know, how we can start making some money. So we talked to them guys for about 30, 40 minutes. And at the end, this is what said. They said, we're going to take your pictures. We're going to pass around, see if anybody knows you. And then we want to know who's in your club. Well, we are, we had so many informants that were A, B guys, they were either in the prison or out. We could have give them a list of 50 guys because they didn't know how many we had. Right. They really did. and truly violent guys that would have been like, holy shit.

But because the outing with that picture, that was, My AAC was driving it downhill, driving it downhill. This is the point in the investigation where we wanted to get because now we'd have free reign and roll through pagan territory and deal with whoever we wanted with their blessing, you know, with their blessing. And then My AAC comes out of nowhere. It says, you guys got to end it. you got two weeks to get out.

It was like, fuck a two weeks. Wow. So we had to contrive this big plan that I had a brain aneurysm and died while I was down in Florida to see my baby's mama. And of course,

those guys are all, a lot of guys who want to go to Florida for Fugas now. They cremated them already. Well, then, of course, we had a running affidavit and everything. So what we ended up doing is, you know,

we ended up, you know, taking everybody down. I think we got like maybe 60, 80 people. We had, we had FFLs that were selling guns, to us off like we'd have we bring females in there and they would put their information and we pay them and they buy the guns for us we had a bunch of unique things in there but but the thing is is we did we had we had 20 undercovers running at one time we had four females in that you know we either our

girlfriends or running mules we had guys that were living in three different areas I mean it was expansive I mean it could have went way much for ATF was getting fearful that it was growing too big beyond their control yeah which it wasn't a I mean, you know, all they had to do was bring in some more people to facilitate it because we were reaching out and touching everybody. You know, you know, David Snow, this guy, for all his quirkiness, he got it that his own people were messed up. You know, so David, he wanted to sleep over the house one night. And he would, you know, guys would stay over our house every now and again. So I go, David, we don't got a bed.

I go up at the couch. He goes, I don't need a bed. He goes, you got a sheet? We go, yeah, you got a sheet. So he makes this prison bed on the floor and we give him a pillow. I got to get up in the middle of the late, go to the bathroom. I'm taking a piss. It's like 4 o'clock in the morning.

And I opened the door. And it was like, because we always used to joke that he's going to kill us all in the middle of our sleep. And I open the door, and he is right there. I bought shit my pants. I go, David, can I help you? He goes, I got to take a shower. I go, David is four. He goes, I just need to take a shower.

he goes, you have a towel. The only thing that was hanging on the towel bar was a washcloth. I said, David, this is all I got. He goes, that'll do, brother. That'll do. I didn't sleep the rest of the night. Yeah. But then David and I got a good understanding.

He eventually wanted to come to our chapter. Like David, he had sense. We had an issue with one of the guys could come up with this concoct story. It didn't sit well with them, right? So we had a meeting in the house. So they brought up their five guys, and it was like six or seven of us sitting in the house. Now, it's fall, but it's hot. They all show up.

They're all wearing jackets, hands in pockets, and our guys all got guns on, right? Comes in. It's contentious. And Polly, who's the security officer, starts going off. Like, well, J.B. comes in. Anybody who's got guns, we got to put them on the table over there. We got to put them on a table. And so we're like, we don't have any guns, which everybody knew we had guns, right?

So, Polly, now, I didn't tell you this, but when I was doing a brother's case up in Akron, Pauley hung around the brothers in Akron. I knew him. I knew me. He never, he never recognized me. So he was the security guy. This is a guy. He was constantly on the internet scouring for stuff.

So he comes in and he starts, listen, I was in Akron. He goes, there was these two ATF guys. They come in and they took down all these clubs. And I'm sitting there. And everybody knew, and you could see everybody kind of edging up, kind of. moving their hands towards their guns are guys because they're sitting there and he goes and he goes

he turns around to where he goes and that's and he points at me and I'm like here we fucking go we're going to have a slaughter right in his house and he goes and that's why and at that point I lost my mind I jumped up I said Polly sit the fuck down I go you are fucking conspiracy theorist

you asshole blah blah blah and I start railing on it right and we ended that and then so I'm legitimately pissed. I go, we could all just fucking, I, you know, so I go and I grab this old chair and I'm sitting out on the path on the driveway looking out over the lake. And David comes out. He goes, junker, you mind if I sit down with you. I go, no, come on, David. So he pulls the chair up. He goes, he goes, I like how you guys do your business. He goes, I want to. Now at this point,

we'd already bought a gun and threw off David. He goes, he goes, I think I'm, I'm going to transfer to your chapter. He goes, I like how you got. He goes, I'm dealing with a bunch of idiots over here. And I'm just sitting there. I go, David, I go, I'm so pissed right now. I go, you guys come up here with guns. Like, what are you going to kill us over something stupid? He goes, no, that was all JV trying to be. I go, that, I go, dude, that ain't flying.

He goes, I'm in and all this right now. He goes, I'm done with this bullshit. He goes, he goes, we are going to be the power in this chapter. See, all this was kind of going along. And, I mean, we had reached, you know, we had another guy. His name was Wild Bill Millsaps, right? Well, this was after J.B. got outed and we were going to bring some other guys in. This guy had been in jail for armed robbery a couple times, right?

So he gets out and they're going to bring him in. So we're at this strip club. And we're just talking about expanding. And I just threw it out there. I said, well, Bill, you wouldn't happen to have any guns for sale, would you? He goes, fuck, yeah, I got guns. I go, well, can we get him? He goes, when you want to get him?

I go, tonight. So I had to send one of the guys back to the, office, which was about 40 minutes away to raid the bolt to get every penny we had. So we go, so I'm riding his truck and he's drunk and he's searching all over for his revolver that he can't find while we're driving and the other guys are following us. So we pull up to this pretty nice house and I'm like, there is no way this dude lives here. So we get out, we go into this house and his dad, older guy sitting in a chair watching TV. He goes, hey Bill. He goes, hey, dad. He goes, your mom's going to be home in about a half-fire.

He goes, you need to get the hell out of here. Because he knows. So we go upstairs into this bedroom. And he's got guns everywhere, right? He goes, well, how many do you want? I go, I'll take them all. I go, give me a good deal. I go, do you got something I can carry him out in?

So he gives him in his green, like, Army duffel bag. And I got rifles and pistols and shotguns and whatever revolvers in there, probably about 10, 15 guns. We hear the door open to the house. It's his mall. June Cleaver. She comes in, she goes, hi, honey. He goes, hi, honey.

She goes, Bill's here. She yells up the steps. Hey, Bill. He goes, I'll be down in a minute, Mom. Now, again, we're pretty, we're not young, but we're old enough. I felt like I was five. Because here we are. We got our knots and cuts on our boots.

I got this big bag of guns. We're walking down the steps. And his mom goes, hi boys. And we don't even, hi, Mrs. Wild Bill. That's all we could call. Yeah, yeah. And she goes, would you guys like something to eat? I have some cookies.

And we're going, what the hell? Yeah. And none of us, it was, it was just the funniest shit I'd ever seen in my life. You know, as far as there were a lot of stupid things that happened in these cases. But, you know, some of those things you could just, you know, these guys are just out there. And he was one of those guys. We're going to open a chapter in Akron. He goes, we're going to kill him.

every one of these guys. I mean, there was always kill, kill, kill. You know, we had to temper that kind of stuff. Yeah. Because obviously, that'd be a problem. Do we have any questions for Frank? Yeah. I'll give it. I want to ask you, when we get to these questions, I want to ask you a question. Because you mentioned earlier, like the cop motorcycle clubs and the military motorcycle clubs. And generally, those clubs are made up of veterans or cops who like to ride. And generally, like the one percenters don't tend to fuck with them because they're just doing their thing. They're not going to, they're not

impeding on their territory in terms of like drugs and stuff. But right, but you do have those people in those clubs who for whatever reason idealized the one percenters and want to get closer. Like how would you manage or did you have to manage

that when members of these cop clubs or military clubs would want to get closer to the one percenters? Well, a lot of times, especially with the cop clubs, the 1% are clubs that want anything to do with them. Yeah. You know, they would try to force themselves in. And then every time there was an altercation or something would happen, these cop clubs would pull out, I'm a cop.

Now I'm a cop. Right. I want to be. And then they would fall back on the badge, right? Right, right. You know, so that was, so that was all. And they're not all bad. But the ones that choose to want to affiliate and go to 1% of our houses and do all that, there's no reason for you to do that.

We still don't understand why is cops you even have to have a patch. Your badge is your patch. You shouldn't have to put it, you know, but that's what they choose to do. But, you know, this has happened in court where, you know, cop clubs, you know, they get in and they emulate the 1% of clubs. Three-piece patch. They have meetings, mandatory runs. And, you know, this has happened where they put these people on to testify in court. But what's the difference between what you do and what the 1% of clubs do?

And there really is no difference. The same thing when you get to the military clubs, again, they're not all bad. But you know what? The special forces is a big recruiting ground or people who have special. Now, I will tell you, like Jeremy Sheets in ATF headquarters, Mike Will, those two guys were probably the two biggest supporters of the motorcycle cases throughout, you know, the time we've been doing them. But now they publish law enforcement, military first responders in outlaw motorcycle gangs. those guys are constantly going out and briefing commands, special mission units as well. Yeah.

And they're pulling people's clearances because of their affiliation. Yeah. So, you know, these guys, a lot of these guys got high level access. A lot of these guys are doing a lot of training and they're recruiting these dudes into these clubs, you know. And then they're committing violence that are getting jacked up after a great year or a great service to the United States, you know, being in a military. they're getting hooked up with these guys and they're screwed themselves up. Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating. McIntyre, thank you very much for the very generous donation.

Can you please explain why ATF isn't allowed by law to have a database to track guns and has to resort to a paper database? Okay, so everybody thinks that ATF has this national database on guns. What ATF has is, so if it's an NFA weapon, you know, like a Title II type of weapon, machine gun silencer, short-barreled shotgun, short-fail rifle. Those, obviously, you have to pay a tax stamp and those are registered, right? Specialty weapon. ATF, the only database ATF keeps and maintains is a multiple sales database.

Okay, so what that means is if you buy two guns, two or more guns at one time, not long guns, but handguns, okay, that gets reported. Now, they changed it on a southwest border to include long guns, because all the stuff that was going across, fast and furious and all that BS, right? But the database is basically multiple sales. So what that is is for straw purchases. So you got people who are going out

and are buying guns for somebody else, right? They get reported. We go back and we say, okay, and people say, well, you don't have to tell them if you have the guns. No, you don't have to tell them. But most lawful people, if I come knock on your door and go,

why did you buy four garbage guns, name one? Haskells pick up some garbage gun. It's like a $9900 gun. Why did you buy five of them? Can you explain to me why? And then normally they'll come up with the, well, they were stolen, something happened to them. I don't know what happened to them.

And they're turning up with other parts of the state or their gun crimes. So, and what else they're used for is like investigative leads. If you buy, you have people go out and buy multiple guns at multiple stores over the course of a day, a week, a month, right? And then they're trafficked outward. you know, to other places. So, and what else it's for, we use it for is like if we're doing search warrants and or if you're going to a house, if I go into the database and I see, well, this house has,

you know, if it's a search warrant, well, they, you know, this house has been on the, on the, like five times. There have been multiple sales reported to your house. What's going on there, right? So there's no central database like that tracks every gun you, own. The FFLs only have one obligation when it comes to multiple sales, and that's to report that when you buy two or more handguns at one time. Okay. So that's what that's about. So it's, you know, that's a big misnomer that everybody, yeah, I'll tell you something else about

these FFLs. I, because I used to go out to our, our firearms technology branch of Martinford all the time, you know, everybody thinks it's ATF that's jacking them, that's jacking them. Well, let me tell you something. They, they were selling those shots. on those AR and AK platforms, you know, with the magazines. I saw it for like $200 one time. And then like two weeks later, I was at a gun show in Virginia over Norfolk carry. They were up to like 500. And I just, yeah, I didn't tell the guy who I was.

I'm just asking, why these guns so expensive now? He goes, oh, ATF's getting ready to ban them. ATF's getting ready to ban them. I go, didn't hear now. So I called John Spencer, who's in charge of our firearms technology branch, the guys who make these decisions. And I go, John, are these guys guns getting? He goes, no.

He goes, all the FFLs are putting that out because they're driving a cost up. So everybody thinks that it's ATFs screwing with them. It's not. A lot of these FFLs are, they self, you know, propose these hikes and all this and these shortages so they can. And not all, again, there's a lot of good quality FFLs out there. But if there's money to be made at the behest of the people thinking something's going to go offline, then they're,

they'll do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we were talking, you were talking about the whole bumps. I think it was the bump stocks, right? Like, because we were talking about, like, bump stock those braces. Yeah, the braces. The braces. Not bump stocks, but braces. But, well, let me, well, let me take something about ATF. ATF, you know, hey, I love that agency. It, you know, it gave me a career, gave me a life, you know, it afforded me a lot of opportunity. However, ATF is a political football because between that, and it's not really the, the, the alcohol and the tobacco. But with the firearms, the arson, the explosives, abortion clinic, and all that stuff falls under the peer view of ATF, right? So for years, the NRA was battling,

and it still battles with ATF. When I came on in 1989, ATF had 2,500 agents. DEA had 2,500 agents. Today, DEA has over 5,000 agents. ATF still has 2,500 agents. They don't want ATF to get any bigger. And when you talk about gun violence, like ATF's going to go in and solve these problems in Chicago, Memphis. They can't. They don't have enough people. All they can go in and tell you, hey, look, here's how we can help you. But those are state and local problems where they have to have the manpower to address it. ATF can't go in there. They don't have, ATF should have 5,000 agents if they want to be effective. They just, Congress will not, NRA's big money. Congress will just knock it off the money to expand ATF. And then the other thing about ATF is, you know, when we were under Treasury, it was rock and roll because we could do what we wanted under the purview of Treasury and they backed us.

Once we went under DOJ, we became the redheaded stepchild to FBI and DEA, right? We were third in line. So, and we've been run by U.S. attorneys, which that doesn't mean, it doesn't mean anything bad, but they're attorneys. attorneys are at risk averse. They look at liability. They're not run by a law enforcement official. Dettelbach, I know him from Clay. He's a great guy.

But the thing is, is ATF is caught in this web of not being allowed to expand and do what actually needs to be done. They do what Congress tells them because they don't have enough to push back. If you told the FBI, hey, we're going to electric cars and you guys got to get on board, the FBI would tell them kiss their ass. ATF, we would park all our gas cars and we'd be riding electric cars because they don't want to get sideways with Congress because they're always fearful that the budget's going to get cut or something's going to get happened. There's a lot of good leadership, but there's also a lot of people that just don't want to

stand up and take the fight. That's how it was throughout a lot of these undercover operations throughout. You had a few guys that came up through the ranks like Steve Martin, Carlos Canino, Charlie Smith, you know, those guys made it up there. Those guys knew what it was like to be on the ground and go up. Then you got a bunch of guys that just promoted up through that not on my watch. I don't want any black marks by my name because I got to get to the next level. And when you lose the confidence that you, right now, you talk to all the guys that are out in the field.

There's no safety net. There's no safety net. And that's how they're operating. It used to be a very proactive agency. Now it's becoming more reactive agency, but so is most of law enforcement. Yeah. Maggator, thank you again for another very generous donation. How much of Hunter Thompson's book do you feel is accurate?

The Hell's Angels book. Whose book? Hunter S. Thompson. I don't know if I read that book. Okay. God's a journalist. McIntyre, thank you very much. What do you know about the Boos Fighters Outlaw Club?

They seem to draw a lot of active military vets into their group. They used to have a clubhouse in Okinawa, Japan. You know, the booth fighters are, you know, they're, I think they're the oldest club, but they go by their alphabet. And, you know, you never really saw those guys get too criminal. I mean, most of them are, you know, they got a lot of cops. They got a lot of veterans. You know, it's more of a social riding club, I would say. It's not, I wouldn't, you know, to classify them as an outlaw motorcycle gang only maybe because they wear a three-piece patch and they subscribe to the thing.

but they're not, they're not in it like the rest of them are. I mean, they will associate and affiliate, but not to the degree that some of the other clubs do. Yeah. Louis Fasquez, thank you very much for a, it's just a sticker. Thank you. And then a couple questions on Patreon. Oh, did your knowledge of tobacco from the ATF assist you in starting your cigar company?

And how? Well, no. My cigar company, it kind of started because I like to smoke cigars. So, you know, and working in the government and still working in it, you know, contracting out, it was like sometimes you just want to get away from all that and do something different. I started smoking cigars years ago. No, my not. ATF has nothing to do with my business, thank Lord.

And, you know, it's all state regulated and I don't have to deal with them people in any way, shape, or form. Because, you know, if I was doing cigarettes, it might be a little something different, but not with cigars. Yeah. What is your cigar company? Let people know where they can find it. It's Black River Tobacco Company. You could find us online at www.w. Blackrivertobacco.com.

We don't sell cigars online yet. We have a bunch of gear that we sell. If you're interested in buying cigars, you can call us and we'll ship them to you. I just have to send you what our inventory is because I'm telling you, our country, man, they don't want the banks don't want to take tobacco money they don't want to have anything to do with cigars and cigarettes anymore it's tough to find a you know a bank that'll take the money sounds like sounds like marxism to me yes it's terrible it is i'm telling you can't even you can't even have a vice anymore that's ridiculous um how does an undercover agent deal with initiation challenges

for gangs when it comes to illegal activity you know a lot the the most illegal activity that they're have you do. Like I said, the one where we did the home invasion was an anomaly. Most of it has to do with fighting, you know, or mud check. You know, it's a, you know, like I said, the drugs, you know, we've, we've learned how to subvert that and get around that. But most of it, I mean, they're not going to say, here's a gun, go in there and rob somebody, you know, go in there and rob a store. A lot of it is based on, you know, who your sponsor is, what they feel of you, because you'll see some prospects will be treated like dirt. And then on the other side, you'll see

some prospects that they feel might bring something to the club. Like the old school, peeing on the colors and pooping on the colors and porn. No, clubs respect their colors now. You know, they don't do that. The only club that's like that, really, the only 1% of club that's truly like that is still the pagans.

They still run like they're in the 70s. I'll give them that. But everybody else, man, you know, they have one, two sets of colors. They have their dress colors. They have their daily colors. It's a different world, you know, whole different world. What effect, if any, did sons of anarchy have on outlaw motorcycle gangs and law enforcement efforts to investigate them? Did they give away any trade secrets of note?

You know, I, I, you know, it was funny about that series is ATF was always portrayed as assholes in that series, which we all got a good laugh at because, you know, at first, I think the first couple seasons, the Vagos were the ones that were given them their, what you call it, their expertise or whatever. And then after that, then the Hells Angels took it over. That's where every time anything related to ATF was brought in, it was always brought in in a bad light. But Suns of Anarchy, for the first couple of years, it was pretty spot on with a lot of the stuff that they talked about, you know, who were giving them their advice, who were directing them. Then it kind of got way out of control. And, you know, because

You know, it's TV. You know, nothing in real life is ever as sexy as it is TV. There are some things that happen and some craziness, but it's nothing like Sins Arnick, sons of anarchy at all. Yeah. I don't think it impacted any investigations as it was on while other investigations were going on, you know. And then what is your opinion of how the investigation of prosecution

and the Waco Twin Peak shootout was conducted at both the state and federal level? Do we have the whole story, or is there still more to trickle out someday? You know, that case, you know, I had a good bite, Darren Kozlowski went and testified down on that. I mean, the fact that, you know, I mean, I think there were some, according to the guys that I talked to that were involved in that investigation and it testified, there were some balls that were dropped. There were people that should have been charged. I mean, if you watch the video, I mean, you know, it could only be so much self-defense. But, no, the story's out there.

There wasn't anything that was being hidden. It was just in the way that they prosecuted the case. that didn't bring, you know, a good end result. Yeah. I just, you know, you know, you've talked about these really big cases with these, you know, with these bad actors, very bad actors. And, you know, there are going to be people who comment later on about ATF and, you know, the issues, whether there's DEA, ATF, you know, feds.

What is your response to people who who talk about, like, the federal, like, if we were to talk about Ruby Ridge or whatever, you know, like, when people, because people are obviously going to comment on this about the ATF going after the every man. Not that, you know, not that Ruby Ridge was the everyman, but, like, what would you say to people who are critical of organizations? So here's the deal. I can only

speak for the guys that I know and that I respect in law enforcement. You go after people who are doing truly evil, bad things, right? If they're not, you let them go. I can tell you, I never took it personal when you look at, you know, who you're targeting. Because they've either presented themselves in such a manner that they're doing something wrong. You know, everybody talks about ATF, you know, the gun law. We don't write the gun laws.

Congress writes the gun law. If you don't like the laws, go to your congressman, go to your senator and get them changed. We only enforce them. So if you're supposed to have a gun, have all you can. If you're not supposed to have a gun, don't get caught. Because if you get caught, you're going to prison. So, I mean, it's like anything with the drugs. I mean, whatever they do.

So, you know, you can disparage law enforcement. You can disparage, you know, there's always allegations of entrapment. There's always, you know, this and that. And we're like, go to court. Show where we're in trap. Because that's why I could tell you the guys that do, especially the infiltrations, Jay Dobbins, Mark Deimos, Derek Kozlowski, you know, myself, you got Blake, I mean, Blake, or Darrell, I mean, there's countless guys, right?

Billy Queen. Those guys, you know, people think because you're an undercover, you're a jackass, right? They think, oh, it's all fun in games and you're out there drinking. Cowboys. No, no. Yeah. And even in our own agency, it's like, oh, the skeleton needs to come out of the closet, dust it off, let it go do the thing, and get back in the closet.

My sack told me one time, he goes, Frank, all those tattoos. He goes, you know, what will people think? I said, well, let me ask you something, Chris. And this was Chris Sadowski. I said, Chris, I said, do you pay me for what I look like? He goes, no. I go, I can wear long sleep. like you do because you're a suit. I go, I don't aspire to be you and be a suit. I go, let me ask

you another question. I go, would you rather me be administratively sound or operationally sound? And he goes, operationally, I go into my point. I go, all that other bullshit is administrative. You can't die from that. I go, so all the guys that, that I know that, that I know that these type of cases, you know, and there's countless, I'm missing people. I mean, Steve Martin, you have to be, you have to know how to process everything. It wasn't until the mid-2000s where you were processing your own evidence, writing all your own reports, doing all of your electronic surveillance tapes, downloading them, transcribing them. I mean, you have to know something about the game. And like I said before, we never put anybody in jail who didn't deserve to be there. In fact, like I said,

sometimes we would try to steer them away from the activity that they wanted to do. But because of the sexiness of being involved in a criminal organization, all that goes along with that entire lifestyle. I mean, you know, that they get involved for that. And we try to tell people, you know, even today you see guys, why are you involved in that? Yeah. You know, there's no point.

Yeah. Frank, this has been one of the most like roller coaster ride over the top interviews. we've ever done in 222 episodes. And listen, thank you so much. I can talk for hours more. And if you guys want to bring some of the other guys in, there is just so much more to talk about. Frank, I would love to bring you and some of your buddies up here to Brooklyn to do another interview.

Yeah. This has been awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us. And real quick, where can people find you again, both to Scarlet? Like wherever you're at out in public, where can people find you? Well, they could find us through the cigar, but I also have another company called Hard Knock Schoolhouse. It's hk schoolhouse.com. You can reach me there or you can reach me through the website, the black rivertobacco.com.

There you go. We got social media and whatnot. And, you know, I hope people are going to call them, hey, you're an asshole. You're an ATSHagent. And I go, you know, hey, I get a lot of people don't like, you know, the, cops and they don't like a lot of that. We're used to it. So I'm thick skin by now.

You're not going to... I get it. I get it. You know, so it is what it is. You know? Well, fellas out there, we will be back on Tuesday, right, Dee? Tuesday with Andy Stumpf, cleared hot podcast, former SEAL Team 6 officer. I think NCO and then officer.

Yeah. So we're really excited to have him on the show on Tuesday. Frank, again, man. Thank you so much for coming on. I know we ran way over our time, but it was worth it. Oh, I don't care. It was worth it for us. And we definitely want to have you back on.

We want to have you in the studio, smoke some stogies. Yeah. Well, then okay, I'll come. All right, man. I'll bring some guys and some stogies and some guys. And we'll have a good time. Just let me know where. We are down for it.

We'll do it, man. Hey, thanks, guys. I really appreciate you having it on it. I know I'm a different, I'm a different animal from what you guys are used to have it on. And, you know, I, it's just, my family's like, are you really going to go on here and talk? I go, I don't care. It's, you know, it's fascinating. Different animals, same zoos, though, Frank.

I mean, we're, it's all great, you know, like, we love it. Look, final, final comment I've said in the past, maybe privately, I interview a lot of, like, people from the intelligence community, special operations community. And I always run up against, especially doing a public interview like this, like, I can't really talk about that. But with guys like you, where your cases have been prosecuted, it's just like game on. And you can tell the whole story from front to back. And it's just amazing stuff.

It is. Well, I'll tell you, just one last comment. Sure. You know, just in dealing with some of the guys that we, you know, on the military side that would come to our training and we would go to their training. And, you know, we got to make a lot of good friends. And it was always funny because, you know, we would sit there in awe and listen to their stories, right? and they're like, well, it's no big deal.

This is what we do every day. And then we would tell our stories and they would sit there and all going, holy shit. And, you know, just the mutual respect, although the operations are different, the sacrifices and the hardships are no less. Yeah. And that's, I think that's where the camaraderie comes with all of that. You know, people just, you know, and not everybody has the same road,

but there are a lot of different things to go along with travel on the road than a lot of us have traveled. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, we'll stay in touch, man.

We'll love to do it again. And, yeah, man, again, thank you for coming on the show. And I spend some of your Friday evening with us. Yeah, we deeply appreciate it. You're going to need to get bigger to get up because none of us are small enough to fill your stuff. We got several other chairs we can push up here. Okay. Bean bags are good.

I was just thinking about that. Some bean bags would be awesome. It could be done. Of course, we'd have to, like, cut before anybody got up because nobody wants to see a bunch of 50 old guys. rolling out of yeah yeah it could be rolling all exactly yeah it could be done all right guys we'll see we'll see you we'll see everyone on Tuesday thank you thank you thank you frank all right thanks everybody take care