The Team House - Inside Dutch Intel & the Fight Against Russia | Tim Bosch | Ep. 374

Episode Date: October 9, 2025

Tim Bosch is the former Deputy Director of Operations for the Dutch Intelligence Service, where he served for 21 years. His extensive career journey included a shift from working in the agency's technical department to becoming a case officer, eventually rising to a top executive position. The interview explores his unique path, from his early life and military service to his current work advising on security sector reform and geopolitical issues with his company, the Bird Watcher Group.https://www.birdwatchergroup.com/Today's Sponsors TrueWerk ⬇️https://truewerk.com/houseuse code "HOUSE" for 15% off!For ad free video and audio and access to live streams and Eyes On Geopolitics...JOIN OUR PATREON! https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouseTo help support the show and for all bonus content including:-live shows and asking guest questions -ad free audio and video-early access to shows-Access to ALL bonus segments with our guestsSubscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseSupport the show here:⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse___________________________________________________Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured__________________________________Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/——————————————————————Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouseSocial Media: ⬇️The Team House Instagram:https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_linkThe Team House Twitter:https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePodJack’s Instagram:https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_linkJack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21Team House Discord: ⬇️https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6SubReddit: ⬇️https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample"Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio"00:00 Start 01:01 The Origin Story: Early Life 07:02 Transition to Intelligence Services10:26 History of Dutch Intelligence 25:20 Intelligence Officer Training31:07 Shift from Tech to Case Officer 39:29 First Overseas Assignment 42:53 Breaking Up Terror Plots 54:00 Transition to Management/Deputy Director 1:02:11 Retirement and Founding a Company 1:18:59 Top European Intelligence AgencyBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

The Team House with your hosts, Jack Murphy and David Park. Hey, everyone, I'm Jack, here with our guest host, Jason. Our guest on tonight's show is Tim Bosch. He retired as the Deputy Director of Operations at the Dutch Intelligence Service. We're really grateful to have you on the show and, you know, for you to provide us with some unique insights into your part of the world. Yeah, hi. very nice meeting you and thanks for having me. So Tim, I kind of start off the show usually asking the person about their origin story.

If you can tell us a little bit about growing up and how that sort of took you towards governmental service. Oh, that's a while ago, but what I remember, no, I think it was indeed an important part of being attracted to government work. I grew up in Amsterdam, it's like a little over 55 years ago. And growing up in Amsterdam in the 80s was fun, lots of freedom. But at the same time, there were a lot of squat riots. A lot of people squatting houses and then the police reacting. And at a certain period, I remember when I went to kindergarten and then went to high school, that exactly at that same time there were these riots in Amsterdam because the police were really fighting it.

And there was a lot of pushback and it became heavier and heavier. And a certain time there were even tanks rolling in the streets of Amsterdam. You really cannot imagine that. But I remember a tram on fire. it was so heavy and well as a kid watching this is like first is of course my god the whole town is burning and at the same time it's like who are these people what are they doing to to this beautiful city that I grew up in and what is the anger and I think that in a way already inspired me but also fascinated me so what what are the motives of these people what's going on that makes them so

angry that they're burning down their own city so that that's growing up up and then studied law in a very conservative traditional student town. Also had a lot of fun. The only burning there was us sitting things on fire and students. And then went into the military service. So that's in a nutshell, my Amsterdam and Blighton period. So I mean, I guess seeing your hometown burn explains going after a law degree. But how did the military service come into it?

Well, it was subscription at the time. I was, I think, the latest one. So everybody was trying to avoid it. And maybe it was also always going against the current at that time. But when everybody wanted to avoid it, I thought, no, well, it's for a year, over a year. I stayed a little longer. It's all about sporting and about doing fun stuff. And at the same time, it was a contribution to society.

So I thought it was a very good idea, and I never regretted it, by the way, and specifically now in this day and age. It's still something that I dearly remember. But it was a subscription, so I had to. Compulsory. Two, growing up in the 80s in Europe, did the threat of the Soviet Union have any bearing on your childhood? Yeah, that's a good question,

because also there well my school was kind of on the left side of things and well at least my father my mother was quite a middle and progressive liberal but not to the extreme but my father was a bit more on a conservative side of things and i think in a way i listened to his ideas and i was influenced by them and he was a fierce Russian hater. He saw what communism did and what what was neglected by everybody who said oh it's social socialistic free state and it's the highest performance of state that you can ever get and it's fantastic. There were a lot of sounds these days in Europe also specifically in Amsterdam and I was completely on the other side of things so I was non-stop debating even with schoolmates and with friends about this issue and

Yeah, I never want to pretend that I was right, not at all, because I missed a lot of things. But on this specific subject, I was a bit more fierce and looking to the east as a kind of, well, danger that we should not neglect. And I know we'll get into the history a little bit, but before we move on, I want to ask you, you know, your compulsatory military service, what did you actually do while you were in the service? I hope that you were not going to ask it, but it was a lot of fun. I went to the Air Force, but then they ended up in the legal department. Because you're a degree. But at the same time, it was going to court.

A lot of friends who immediately went to law firms and went into the basement to prepare stuff for other lawyers. At that time, because we were lost, we were also allowed to just bleed in court. And that was fantastic because we gave a lot of experience in pleading and everything in court. And at the same time, because they didn't really take us that seriously, so we had a lot of time to sport and to do all these trips, fly off sea. And I forget the moment that the F-16s were to tank. and that this big K-D-C-10 was gassing, how did you say that, fueling the F-16s in air. That was a magnificent moment that I really thought, okay, this is a pretty cool, cool job to start with.

So it was the Air Force. And as your year of military service winds down, what got you thinking about the intelligence services and kind of continuing your career in the government? I never realized that, but I, it would say. seat was planted in military service. Also because I had to share the room with a colleague officer who worked for the police and for the military police for a long time. And he was assisting the intelligence service at the time. And in beginning, he never said anything, of course, about it. But then later on, he shared some stories and I was fascinated. By the way, he's

that's still remember that. I think he was the first victim of the Afghanistan. war because he was killed in action by a malfunctioning helicopter in Afghanistan. So he was one of the first Dutch victims. He was a great, great person. But he inspired me in entering the world of espionage, although that only came like five years later because I had a start career in a normal financial insurance conglomerate doing what kind of internet stuff, tech. technical stuff, project management, payments on the internet, stuff like that.

So the beginning was completely different and then at a certain point I thought, okay, that's it. I'm only helping people that are complaining about how to get richer and it didn't inspire me, didn't motivate me, the whole environment. It was good to learn something as a young adult, but at a certain point it was enough for me and I thought, okay, I'm now going to look for something. that really contributes to society. And then I cross path with somebody who worked for the security service

and applied for a job there. Well, the rest is history. But I think it's another podcast. And the recruitment process really was like that. Did you have to know somebody who was already in to get introduced at that time? Then, yes. Then absolutely. It was even worse.

Well, not worse. depends on your view, of course, but because the service came out of the resistance in the Second World War, they were not trusting anyone. So a lot of relative and from a certainly more Protestant religious circles, these were the people that were asked to apply and to join the service. But it was very, you never should talk about a colleague that you weren't sure if it wasn't connected in a family relationship or whatever. So many times he said,

okay, that person, oh no, that he really doesn't do a good job or she, and then it ends up being family of the person you spoke with. So it was completely in crowd all the time. So, yes, at that time, for sure, if you knew somebody, and then it helped that this was a person with some influence there,

And he said, okay, yeah, well, if you want to join, I'll introduce you to some people and let's make it work. And then then it went quickly after a year of waiting, fadding. So relatively quickly. And so before we go a little bit deeper into your training with the intelligence service, I'd like to step back for just a moment to talk about the history of the Dutch intelligence services and sort of the historical and geopolitical factors that have shaped your country's approach to this. Yeah, so it's almost at the same time that it's, that in the US, the OSS was founded, the first kind of organization out of the resistance was formed to go after the Nazis and the war criminals. And then it was reshaped in a kind of new organization also responsible for security and, and, and, and, and, and, and, you know, it was reshaped in kind of a new organization also responsible for security and,

And then the Dutch internal, and at that time it was only internal, they call it Bay Vidae, that sends for the internal security service only for the Netherlands itself was founded. And the main task remained, contrary to spinoj, and later on, of course, specifically just before 9-11, and the whole counterterrorism and Islamic terrorism came into focus as well. But that's, of course, with big steps through history. But foreign intelligence was never really part of it. In 1990s, beginning of 2000, then there was a project also to have a foreign intelligence service, our military intelligence service, so we have two big services here in the Netherlands, the military intelligence security service and the military intelligence service and the Dutch one,

the general intelligence security service. The military, they had their own foreign intelligence task and so they had operations all over the world, but with the military focus. They took that very broad. Everything related to governments was also a potential threat to the forces, So they had much more history in the foreign intelligence side. And in the late 90s, then the general, the civil intelligence security service also were focusing on foreign intelligence. And only in 2004, if I remember correctly, then it was incorporated in the old domestic service. And then it became the general intelligence and security service. So now for some time it has two phases.

So the external like your CIA and the internal only without the legal provisions that the FBI has, but with the domestic task. Advantage of course that they can swap face very and focus very easily. So the times that there was a terror threat in the Netherlands, it was more easy to move people to this threat and to put some other subjects on a little bit lower stove. But it has advantages and disadvantage. But that's in a nutshell the history of the services. Now, by the way, a lot of things are combined, so together with the military service. So if you're talking about the big threats of today, that's on, for example, theoretically Russia, China and some other subjects, more and

and more these subjects are approached in a combined way. And I think that's a very good thing. And was it, I'm just curious of sort of what was the impetus, impotence to create foreign intelligence or make it more of a priority in the civilian intelligence agency. Was it that the war on terror happened and the Dutch became part of the international coalition? Was that sort of the start of it? Well, for a while, and I almost forgot to mention that, for a while we had a separate intelligence, foreign intelligence service. But with a couple of scandals and even the Brits, yes, there we have them, mingling in our two affairs, it became a scandal too much, and the Prime Minister stopped it.

I think that was 1997 or something. So then the official foreign intelligence service that was completely stand alone and separate was stopped. And because of all the scandals that they were involved in, for a longer time, nobody dared to touch it anymore. But I think in general indeed the end of the Cold War that everybody thought, but then with new threats. So it's more or less around the time of indeed the war on terror.

subject got more importance than definitely after 9-11 for sure then it was quickly decided to not only to step into the allied forces so to say to seek for partnerships and to combine forces but also to focus more in foreign intelligence at the end it's it's some when the streets of raka decided also certain neighborhoods in the netherlands how to respond to certain goals and to to his fundamentalism. So it was all connected. So it was a good thing that it came into existence again. Hey guys. I want to tell you about the sponsor for tonight's show, which is True Work. They make performance workwear that's built like it matters because it does. In the fall, the weather changes real fast. It can be hot, cold, wet, windy, sometimes all during one shift. So you want performance

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And I'm just kind of curious to ask, you know, as that book asks, some countries like America have covert action codified into their law. Some countries even have it in their constitution. But then there are countries like Britain where it seems like it's much more about norms rather than anything that's actually written down. I was wondering what the case is in your country. Yeah, I think the Brits have indeed a different code and different form of, making laws and not writing things down. I think that gave them fantastic opportunities, but also a lot of governments fell over that issue.

Now, here we are more like the French, so our laws are derived from, in a way, Bonaparte, another little emperor, I mean big in deeds, but he wasn't, by anyway. And so our code civil, so a lot of our laws are derived from the French system. So we write everything down. So we have law on intelligence as well. And so it says it gives a mandate.

It gives, so when people are hush-hush, what can service do? The communication manager and the PR people always had quite simple to explain. Just look at the law because it's all written down there. services can do. And so with the latest version, there's even now an article that gives the services, so it's both military as the General Intelligence Security Service, described that they also have authority to act and to, of course, with the idea that you sometimes have to act to stop something, so it's not about just running around, kidding people, and point to that article in the law and say, hey, yeah, it's law, I'm the law, but it's to give opportunities to a service to, and a mandate to,

for example, if you're on the cyber attack that you want to destroy a certain infrastructure, you're allowed to do so by law. And of course, there's a lot of mystique and reasoning behind it because in a way, the law is also written that if agents of the service are tested, the, let's call them the best, guys can never really test a person because by law these people also are allowed to pursue, how you say that, to make legal deeds, so to also in a way break the law. So they're allowed by law to do that. So criminal actors or accessories, if they want to test an agent, they don't know what the limit is of that law.

So yes, the law is very precise and very broad. gives a mandate to really act and in that way fighting for as well. And does the intelligence service report directly to the PM or the PM's office or is there a parliament that you also have to answer to ultimately? So just a funny trivial thing is that he's now not anymore. the prime minister, but he's the missionary because the cabinet fell. But he was a former chief of intelligence. So he was one of the heads of our service.

So anyway, there's this connection to the prime minister, but that's not the official line. So no, because it was always a domestic service, the General Intelligence Disciutto Service fell under the minister of, let's call it internal sort of home affairs. Interior, yeah. interior and the military services of course responding to the Ministry of Defense. But it's a bit more complicated because the tasks are generally formulated by the government

and it's kind of secret operational directive whereby it said these are the subject you need to tackle and then it's divided which services are going to take upon which task. At the end, they all have to respond to this, that's called the National Security Committee. But if it's about warrant, if it's about wiretapping, if it's about the real responsibility is in the internal ministry for the General Intelligence Security Service. And of course, the Prime Minister is very much involved and part of the Security Council as we call it here in the Netherlands. So, yeah, there are a couple of lines, but there's only one strict chain of command to the

Minister of Interior Affairs. You got anything, Jason, before we move on? Yeah. What would you say, in your opinion, I know you don't speak for your country, but, or your government, what would you say your intelligence services liaison relationship is like with U.S. intelligence services? Well, yeah. Also very intriguing questions because there's become read books about this history.

Specifically, the last chapter is that's part I'm no longer part of. Unfortunately, I'm really asking myself every day, how is it right now? Because of all the changes in all the governments and of course also in the institutions. In general, it's always been very good. Of course, there was, after the Second World World War, great feeling of gratitude of the liberation and the help, all the Marshall plan and all the interaction at that time. I think a whole generation was building upon that thankfulness and wanted to do something back. And so that I think for a long time there were a lot of

believers in the transatlantic, in the transatlantic friendship and also standing on some giant's shoulders makes you taller as well. Now, Dutch people are quite tall in general, but that was a magnificent feeling if you're talking about cooperation to be able to learn from very qualified and intelligent intelligence officers in the US. Of course, it had ups and downs and downs. there were the rumor has it that it's certain periods of course

the chief of stations were sent home that would happen all over Europe and things went on behind our back and sometimes it was necessary to call in people and say okay this is not how we treat friends

or friends and friends but in general it was always a fantastic relationship and I can also say no matter what kind of administration. So it was in a way apolitical. It was believing in the same causes, the same mentality. Of course, a lot of these colleagues of such a CIA lived all over the world. So they had a kind of mundane international view anyway.

They knew a lot about cultures, difference in cultures. So they were open-minded already. So, no, in general. Sometimes in particular, I saw a very good friend who served in the services there. There was this bond and believed in doing the right thing. So long answer for a short question. It was great. Thank you. It didn't really change.

And sometimes in here now, okay, now it's really testing the water and how does it work right now. But I think this mentality and still believing that you're that you're working on trying to prevent problems or to work on certain problems, that bond is still stronger than whatever political view you have. So I think we need a couple of administrations like now to widen, to really widen the gap in that way that there is no bond anymore. But that's my personal opinion. I was always a belief, by the way. I'd like to jump into your training as an intelligence officer. Like once you got recruited and they say, okay, you have the job, or at least you're in the running for this job.

What was the training process like? Well, of course, a lot of things that are not possible to explain because they're forbidden by law. In general, I mean, there's so many books written about this. and even so many TV series made. So sometimes it's more boring than a fiction, but I have to say a lot of times it's much more fun and much more crazy than all the things that are written down and all the TV scenarios.

In general, there are parts that you do domestically. There are parts that you do internationally. I had the privilege of working with a, also had my training with a couple of foreign intelligence services. And so they're the ones who have a very militaristic approach, and they're the ones who just throw you in the water and say, okay, you're on your own good luck. I had the really the privilege of working with some very old, very respected people in our knowledge. not old as in fossils, but as in everybody looked up against them. And I had a couple of them and learned a lot from them. They were my mentors.

And even after the training period for the first approaches, the first, when you were trying to recruit somebody, they were always there and tried to assist you if it was necessary. but the training was I mean again coming out of the financial world it was like oh my god this is fantastic this is even better than I ever hoped for so much fun and so much self-confrontation I mean even if you're arrogant young cocky guy then being confronted with with all your flaws and how difficult is to really persuade somebody to do something that normally don't want and how complicated psychological techniques are and how much at that time I had to learn. That was, I think, the best insider ever.

So start all over again. Do you have a favorite story from your training that you're able to tell even? You don't have to say where it was or when. but well there's one moment that I'll never forget with an exercise

somewhere whereby I had to yeah it's a fun story I had to run into a certain establishment and I think the assignment was to get in there and in one hour time

to get as much out of one person as possible. But that's exactly after one hour I had to leave again. So that was if it was one minute late, you're out. So that's the end of it. And they told me which bar I had to be and I didn't really have a strategy. I just thought, okay, I'm running there and see the first person that think that wants to make conversation. And of course I had suspicions that a lot of things could happen there. But I also thought okay I just want to make conversation and I ended up in the bar and I saw some tables with with some girls sitting alone and some really pretty girls sitting alone and but I also saw

a man sitting on the bar reading a book and I don't I blocked the girls and decided to to walk to the man with this book because I thought well he's reading so it must be easy to make a conversation with somebody who's reading just by asking when. And I was lucky at the time because he was opening up completely. But he didn't, he was like telling me his whole life, everything. And he became more animated, going more animated. And I did, what I didn't notice is that apparently the whole plan of the exercise failed because we were interrupted by one of these ladies who even threw a glass half over him

and disturbed and but she was apologetic and trying to and he was like no don't go away he wants to finish the conversation and I was like go away my target is sitting over there so we were in neglectingering as well and well I think even after an hour I tried to look at the watch and I said okay I have to I use this bizarre excuse and I said okay I have to leave now and he even wanted to join me to the next cafe and was like, okay, that's not this is not how it meant to be. It all went fine, but

afterwards I heard that basically the whole cafe was staged and all the ladies were part of the game, only the men wasn't. And I kind of ruined their whole show. I couldn't believe that I just picked the only one that

wasn't their asset. It was beginner's luck, let's call it other. And after your training, you went into, I believe we talked about the tech side before you became a case officer? Well, I started on the technical department, yes. And helping with policy of new technical mission and everything. It was fun and worked together with police and also with the defense.

But indeed, I noticed that, of course, there's a kind of a hierarchy and a kind of informal hierarchy as well. and I noticed that I loved it. I mean, it's a fantastic place to work. But I also noted that a way to make career is not defined by just going to management or be an expert, but it's also about collecting stories. It's about collecting adventures and collecting and knowing the real tradecraft. And then I indeed decided to become a case officer. and I knew us taking some steps back as it's officially considered, but I thought, no, if I want to stay here, and that's the time I really want to stay there, I have to start all over again and learn real tradecraft and start as a case of.

And that's indeed what I then did. And then all the training and everything started, and I never regretted that. The only thing I regret it at a certain point I had to, I moved on, but I could have done it much longer and more longer than I did at the time. I really loved it. And can you tell us about your first assignment? Oh, that's difficult to talk about, but in general, it was more, there was another person that really inspired me and he advised me to, because at that time, everybody, you, was doing something with terrorism. That was of course, well, in a way, it's cynical, but cool place to be because it was very important. It was a high threat.

But he advised me if you want to start with a different kind of adversary. And that was in the Netherlands very well trained, long history. That was more in the extreme left and in the animal rights environments and had some fantastic trainings also abroad but that was a perfect learning school so not to straight away start of course I did my counterterrorism share as well but to start with the subject whereby people were so well trained and so good or trying to beat the government that was a

great learning school for me when you say like they were activists were they like arsonists setting fires or something like that. Yeah, so the standard was standard. So yeah, so like Animal Rights activists who really burned down. There's this bizarre story. It's all out there in the open sources. But there was this British group who was so fiercely against the testing lab that they decided that they dug up the grandmother, if I remember this correctly, the grandmother was buried of a family who was involved in this animal testing,

and bone per bone they sent her back by mail. So that was kind of the... But also, in a way, a threat, because of course this was so heavy and bordering terrorism as well, or even at that time it was defied as terrorism. So it was also an enemy that everybody was like, okay, this is, we need to stop these people as well. Jack, can I give a quick question along that counterterrorism path? I'm always been fascinated with this. Along counterterrorism path, how did you, how difficult or easy did you find it for, this is going to sound weird?

Someone who looks like you to go, especially when it comes to Islamist terrorism, to, to work against an Islamist target against someone who doesn't quite look like you might be darker skinned. How easy or hard was that? Because I've asked that question against someone who was blonde-haired, blue-eyed, and they never had issues with it, whereas some people did, but most people didn't. Did you find that difficult? It's a good question also to explain how our system works, but I think it's similar in the U.S. So the case officers are the one who are recruiting the people trying to infiltrate in certain gangs and serializations.

Of course you know, but just explaining it that indeed me infiltrating in Jabata Lusra was, well, no way I could ever pull it out. But recruiting somebody here in the Netherlands who speaks my language, maybe sees me as happens sometimes as kind of almost. device or shrink or kind of somebody meddling in their head or something, but also there to help them and to support them. That was much easier most of the time. And of course, sometimes people are unreachable, many attempts in trying to recruit people that failed. But speaking of language, understanding, of course, it's all about empathy and trying to understand

what their needs are, what their fears are. And people in general, so I'm not talking, of course, about anything that is secret in the Netherlands, but in general, people that were rooted had their own doubts. Their religion was abused or hijacked. And they were constant wondering, so what is the right thing to do? Should I stand up or should they be part of it?

And when somebody taps on the shoulder and say, hey, I know you're in doubt. and we want to help you in that doubt but also do something about your religion is at stake and it's not fair that that did that that worked sometimes well often luckily enough more it worked than the didn't so and by the way there are great anecdotes there's a danish guy who was like he was yeah just red beard in Yemen exactly yeah and He pulled this off and so well, I knew one thing at certain age that growing a beard was not my thing. So I couldn't have pulled up that stunt, but being a little bit red-headed or something sometimes help in certain Syrian environments as well.

And I appreciate that answer because a lot of people who have never worked in intelligence, they usually go by what they see on TV. And so they're seeing you and they're saying, how is that possible? And I usually will try to explain to them. It's usually not the intelligence officer who's going into these ethnic neighborhoods and working the target. They're recruiting people from these neighborhoods to go into, you know, back in and, you know, work these targets. So I appreciate that explanation. No, you're completely right. But then you're getting into the head of the people that do have their doubts.

and that are able to. And of course, with Catholic nuns, you cannot find a terrorist. So you have to have kind of people who are sitting on the fence. And also, of course, our colleagues, and I had some colleagues that were extremely convincing in almost being part of that environment already. So we all had our specialties and our different trade crafts and our ways of getting to recruit people.

But you need a variety of people to be able to recruit. That was, I think, the best way of describing it. Absolutely. What can you tell us about your first overseas assignment? Yeah, I was sent to Jordan to work for the embassy, and I became a liaison in the Levant, so working in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, specifically in the northern part of Iraq, the Palestine areas, and also Egypt for a while. So that was an eye opener.

Fantastic to live in that part of the world. Cannot emphasize enough how warm and hospitable to the hospital. people were, these people, the inhabitants of course of these countries and the way they were always were welcome to foreigners. And of course, in a very troubled, this was in 2000, well, during part of the Iraq War. So there was a lot going on also work-wise. It was fascinating. So it was a mixture of discovering traditions, cultures, and and religions, of course. And at the same time, it was at that time also the, well, one of the fronts of where the things

really mattered, where you could really contribute to help diminishing or, in a way, fighting terror as well. So would you say your main focus then was on trying to identify groups that are plotting attacks back home in Holland? So it was a lot about liaisening, about cooperating with all kinds of services. So that's the only reason I can say something about it, because it would be a clandestine task. I couldn't say anything about it, obviously. But so working together not only with the local governments,

and you cannot emphasize enough what, for example, the Jordanian government did to fight terrorism in their own backyard and how many initiatives they came up with and trying to contribute to everybody's fear and everybody's terror. So it was specifically working with these kind of governments and with these kind of services. Another group of people that stole my heart were the Kurdish people. and so working with them in all their challenges and all the threats around me around them. That was another fascinating thing. And of course, yeah, also working with a lot of U.S. personnel because they were all over the place and you could run a mile without running into some kind of American outlet or military base.

or just a very nice way of having some drinks or one too many. Also had a little fun there. As I was reading up on the Dutch intelligence service, I was reading that it's kind of known, I guess, publicly to have broken up a number of terror plots that were being plotted, you know, against Holland. Are you able to speak to that at all? Well, there were some that were in the media and some,

ended up in court and there were a couple of famous ones whereby it succeeded in infiltrating these groups and so so the great thing in general of a smaller country as the Netherlands that it's also relatively easy to work with other kind of agency so on a couple of these cases it's all about who of course the real intelligence work is about being in the places where it's really hidden where the conspiracies take place. But what great advantage of the Duchess is that the police here in the Netherlands also has an

intelligence task for the General Intelligence Security Service. So that was one of the changes we had at a certain time is that the police had their intelligence system, but they also had a kind of a public order task. So they were also responsible for hooligism. They were also responsible for radicalism. But it was always kind of, so what are you doing now? Is this a police task or is it an intelligence task? And because obviously they carried guns and they could switch hats quite easily.

It was recommended that they split these tasks. And at the time, that was around 2012, these intelligence units of the police were formed. and they were only working for the intelligence services. It meant that they were paid by the police. They were sitting in the police districts, but were tasked by the General Intelligence Security Service. And these people, they saw the police systems, they saw the, they talked with their police colleagues,

they listened to the stories of what's going on in the streets of Amsterdam or the Hagen. So the fact that they, people that they, people that they were in the veins of society and came up with a lot of relevant information, intelligence. And then they were able to come up with the first leads and the first signals. Then the intelligence system could take over. And when it was about the specialists who were infiltrating and then planting the microphones and everything. So then for a longer time, the intelligence service took over. and then when it was really a threat and everybody said okay this is going the wrong way we have to intervene and there was always a choice who's going to do that but most of the time it was given back to

well in cooperation with the police and then they're specialized so they could work undercover they could basically swap it from an intelligence view to to the evidence view whereby it could stand up in court and they could provide the evidence in a legal way. So this flexibility from, for example, a couple of these cases went exactly that way from starting with police, signalling and then security service took over and then swapping back to the police and ending up with fantastic arrest. They're not all the movies that internally saw were publicized, but some of them were and ended up in court. And there's one where they tried to escape.

And you see the police coming from all the sides of what was one of the best moments in horror service because that rolled up a whole terrorist plot. And they were really called in the act on camera, trying to exercise with weapons. And, you know, I think, promise what they apparently they hit up the wrong person And it was apparently not completely part of their game, but maybe part of our game. Okay. So from your operational years, any, what are some of your favorite stories that you're able to share?

That's the thing. I know, I know. I know. I know. You have to be vague. Sorry? I know you have to be a little vague. So there were joint operations whereby.

What I always admired of the people I work with, and I still admire the mentality with these people, is that, of course, it can be a bureaucratic nightmare and a lot of red tape and a lot of meetings about not only strategy, but also boring stuff. A lot of it. But when there's something going on and when people are needed and there's a real threat, the creativity and the and the mission focus and all the egos are put aside and everybody just once we had to call people when there was an incident most of the time not to come because everyone is already running to the office trying to be part of the team and we said okay there are enough people now so that mentality that was fantastic so and a couple of our

that's why I'm smiling a little bit, but I have to be vague indeed, whereby the goal was clear, and we had to talk to somebody, and we had to have that information. And I think for a couple of days in a row, attempt after attempt, just to get near to this person. And I think if he will ever understand what was going on in his life, that there were so many people trying to befriend him. suddenly meet him, sit next to him in a train. If he knew that what kind of people were trying to get through to him, he wouldn't believe his luck.

Well, it wasn't luck for him at the time. But so that, yeah, so literally an elevator pitch. That was fantastic. And something with another, that's one of my favorite stories. it began to have to be fake but they're working with a with a foreign intelligence service with very friendly service we were also chasing somebody and i was quite young at a time as a case of was in that i thought okay i never imagined i knew the the truman show of course i knew things could be staged and that it could all be fake what you see but i came to in this hotel um

it was not a room it was a kind of board meeting room filled with tables and literally every table was centered around a player in that stage. So it was really the Truman Show walking behind the scenes and suddenly seeing that all the difference of this high value target or the business associates had a whole team. Somebody, a psychologist, two handlers most of the time, somebody with a technical, somebody with a technical, the technical angle and they were all in this big room just because of this person one person that we're chasing and everything in his life that's the only thing i can can reveal that was him was fake everything so all his friends and all his business partners and and and there was this whole stage and walking into this this huge room with all these people and then somebody said like hey

folks all be quiet now we have to go through and then they all start structuring their little place and their scenarios, where are we and what can we do? That was mind-blowing. Okay, this is dedication. Have you ever read the book? I think it's called The Man Who Was Thursday by G.K. Chesterfield? Yep. Oh, that's a long time ago. Yeah. It was Thursday. I mentioned it because the plot of the book is about police trying to infiltrate an anarchist group. and what it turns out is that all of the people in the anarchist group are also cops trying to infiltrate the group. Right, right, right. Well, that was, well, I mean, I'm sure the first one on your show was going to say that sometimes is a challenge as well.

So we had internet for, so everybody trying to infiltrate at a certain point where I think 90% was a spy, in 95%. So everybody was spying for some service and was tipping up somebody, hey, there's this Canadian Europe. And then the Canadian said, well, don't worry about him. Then we knew enough already because it was a Canadian asset. And so a lot of these internet fora were completely filled with its books. And we once, that's a famous anecdote of, I was also written in the book. So I'm not revealing anything.

But for a long time, we were quite good in infiltrating the Communist Party. It was an operation, it was called Operation Mongol, I don't know why. And the Mao Leninist Party in the Netherlands was also infiltrated, but at a certain point was so infiltrated that the whole board of this party was invited to Beijing to receive a very high reward given by the Chinese Communist Party. but what they didn't know is that the complete board of this party because it was of course the operation started to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to do so they they they kind of a jean provocateur so they tried to break one fraction they ended up in debates and then it was another

fight and then slowly on so but the leftover of that party so in that way it was very successful were all assets of of of the dutch service so they ended up with a group and And so the top dog spy ended up with a reward from, I think it was even from Mao himself. So, yeah, all revealed in a book. So just to make even with my vetting issues, already reviewed. And after this, you got, I assume, promoted into more of a managerial position. And you got more involved in sort of that. the aforementioned red tape.

Yeah. So, but it also, it's a way to contribute to the system to try to improve the system. And of course, not everything worked, but indeed I, this police development I helped with and I was responsible for a longer time. So to set up the system of the police being tasked by the security service. And when I missed that a little bit, then I went back to the, to more of the human intelligence. desks, that's where the people who are working who recruit people and try to set up the infiltration processes.

So I always swapped from the more transition kind of, the changing organizations, change management to the more operational side. indeed then at the end also being responsible for more operational means as a deputy director of operations and the latest thing was being responsible for again the transition of our service to to be a little bit more future proof so it was a budget cot or anything it wasn't we have to do something because we're falling apart but it was to be ahead of the game to think about how to change an organization for the good to be ready for for the for the new era with more data more I think is about the internet nowadays about new forms of corporation

well these challenges so a lot of fun to do talk to us about being the deputy director of operations because now that is he like maybe the number three or number four in the building no no so So it's a management team with a couple of directors. And only, and so there were like four or five at the time. And then they all had their deputy. And it depends on what your view was, of course. I thought that the director of operations, the director of operation was the most important one.

But there were, of course, even more people who thought that the director of intelligence where all the that's called the analysts what is more not the how yeah well eminness but it was more combined with the more all-round team anyway and only the dedicated operational specialists where we're in the other director but so it and it was never about the number one two So, yeah, obviously there's one number one always. That's our director general. And he has a deputy. But for the rest, there wasn't a real ranking.

So it was not like you had a number on your shoulder or anything. What was it like doing this job? But it was a fun job to do. Yeah. I mean, you sound like you loved being a spy. And now you're at a pretty high level getting to see how the entire machine works. Yeah. Yeah.

But also very distance from, from, from the actual work because one of the biggest mistakes you can make, and I've made that many, many, many times, is that if you're a senior manager, that you start angling or steering on the operation itself. So I wouldn't, I didn't want that as when I was a case officer or a more working level. So you don't want that as a desk officer case over analysts or whatever. But the people who work there just love that kind of work. So it was very difficult to distance yourself and to distance myself from the actual operation and to give enough space and mandates to that these people do their work. But without falling apart from boredom or from what am I doing.

doing here. I work here because I love the spy business. So it was always trying to find the right mix and of course the more complex and secretive and risky in operation is. The better chances that it's even shared with higher up or that there are special task force during committee. So and that was also a lot of fun, all these special projects and the things. I was surprised how many, at the end, how many risk these organizations could take to prevent something really terrible from happening. So these years, I love them as well. I didn't, sometimes I missed the real operational work, but at the same time, I got more than enough of the Adderlin and the doses of good wartime stories.

Anything, Jason, before me? Yeah, just curious, whether informally or formally, did you ever have the opportunity to train others or even just daily pass on pieces of wisdom, you know, young officers come to you and say, hey, chief, I have something I want to bounce off you or things like that. Yeah, so that happened. Of course, informally, if you work, I work there over 21 years. So you build very strong friendship.

and certain relationship with people there. And of course, in many periods, I was a mentor for somebody or I had a mentor. So it's all, these are not 10, 30,000 size people organization. These are relatively small kind of organization, a number of thousands. So it's also very informal and trying to help each other. And of course, you have a,

in certain positions, I also had a kind of responsibility over a certain team or a management team. You have your own managers working with you and some of them needed more coaching than the others. And some asked for it. But I think that's the beauty of the system. And nobody, because of the kind of work these people do, it's a lot about introspection and about being open and critical to yourself. seeing what your flaws are and I think it's different and I can compare both words a little bit I think there was much more openness and and

reflection in general in these kind of environments than there was for example in the corporate life whereby you know that if you gave you admitted a mistake but could also be used against you and it didn't really promote vulnerability and and trying to be honest in what you did. That's working with military colleagues and military people in general. I always loved that there could be extremely hard, but when it was about performance and about trying to help each other, everybody opened up completely.

And you thought that were the biggest macho kind of people, but they opened up and they could be reached and tried to improve themselves. And I think that kind of culture was, definitely also in my service. So, yeah, so once in a while, trying to help others, but many also help me. I needed a lot of help always. So talk to us about retirement from your governmental service.

You left about three years ago. What inspired your decision to leave the service and where did you land afterwards? Yeah, so I decided to leave the service. when I came in a new kind of crossroads and okay what's my next step and at that time I suddenly realized and maybe it was just the 20 years that made this happen they realized I really did so much fun stuff and so much exciting work and so a lot of parts of the world and then I thought okay will I do another round

of these things and what will it bring me and was for the first time that I thought okay there's also a world outside of course and was inspired by some systems like the US system where it's very normal to retire early not to stay until your to your pension a lot of Brits as well they they leave well paid by the way so they don't have much incentive that's different in the Dutch system as in you don't retire at that age or at my age when I live. that. So I knew I had to also bring in some money. So either to work for company, for for, for NGO, for whatever. But together with also colleague at the time, and he also had a lot of experience on the military intelligence side. So and he lived for a long time in Ukraine,

worked for the advisory mission there for the Ukraine for the reforming of the Ukrainian services. And we, in a split second, we said, okay, let's, if we have these networks together and we have this mentality still, still the energy to do something at this age, why don't we start our own business? And like, first thing, we want to have fun. So it's not about we're going to set up some commercial boutique and try to sell ourselves to the highest bidder, whether it's an oligarch or a corrupt politician who needs to. some intel that's not what we're going to do we want we wanted to do the same with the same kind of mission working with the same kind of people well we saw that there were a lot of out there who were willing to to work with us but we also said okay let's now we're out there we can be quick on our feet as well so we can we don't have the red tape that these

bigger organizations have we don't have the all the levels that we have to go through to to discuss a certain possibility so indeed we at that time said okay let's try to do the same. Of course, under different law and a different mandate, but with technique changing so fast that it's sometimes more easy being outside of a building and working with all the new open source methodologies and techniques, trying to retrieve valuable intelligence. So that's what we did. Then we started the Birdwatcher group. And yeah, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, We had luck in the first year. We saw that there were also governments who needed advice and training,

turning away from the Russian beer, or having experience with more KGB-style training, KGB mentality, and they want to restart or be trained. So we suddenly had a business there, So we work in different countries in the eastern part of Europe. So really on the security sector reform. We also broker now in intelligence products or technical intelligence solutions. So when they ask us or advice or what's the best agency catcher or where can we find a good OSCE platform, data fusion cell or even.

the whole system of very monitored and very well, how you say that, legally arranged, all the cyber defense systems. So we advise there as well and we also investigate with a small team corporate espionage and the insider threat or even if it's about a huge fraud, but preferably with a geopolitical twist, then we also assist. So we try to do the same as we did, but then for a whole new set of clients and countries. And do you want to tell people what that term means, Birdwatcher, the name of your company, where that came from? But that's always when you invent a name that it suddenly has much more meanings than we ever realized.

But it started with picking up the SpyClopedia, the British version. And we looked through certain names that were connected to the spy business, but also had a more general meaning. So that you're not all the time when we're traveling stopped and thinking people, because of them or people think that we had Spy mingling into their affairs. And bird watching is the British term for watching each other's intelligence officers. So that's specifically in the Cold War. There were nonstop watching what the other side was doing. So that's what the term bird watching came from. The owl is a symbol and that all these stories followed later.

But then we found out that the owl is the only bird that catches a bed in full flight. And the bat was the symbol of the Russian special forces misbehaving in Ukraine and things that they were invincible. So we used that symbol as well to explain where we stand on that spectrum. And there are many other meanings for birdwatch as well. But one thing, Ian Fleming was an orthologist. So the inventor of James Bond was an an anthologist. And so then the whole circle was round for us. that's a perfect

perfect for a company can you tell us about some of the things that their Birdwatcher group does you know dealing with insider threats specific countries

you've advised so we the latest now we were in a way involved in the elections in Moldova

whereby we investigated the disinformation and the the mingling into the Moldovan affairs by the Russians. It's one example of the kind of work we did investigate where the disinformation came from, the methods that were used, and also to be able to explain to the public what the dirty war,

what a hybrid war it is right now. So the paid protests, so shoot some movies even, some of our people who are out there of protest that ended exactly after half an hour or after an hour. And they ended in all the equipment, all the flags and all the protests and material that were collected like central by one person exactly on the clock after one hour. because then the time was over and they only got paid for an hour so that's what them said well these these kind of things also something we pointed out later even on Dutch national television is that the Russians abused the church so they invited this was already found by by Reuters in a very fantastic documentary that they invited invited the hundreds of priests of Moldova to come to Russia on a trip and then they sent them back with a wallet full of money.

With the assignment, with the task of trying to get voters to vote against the ruling party in favor of the Communist Party. So all these tricks. And so these are the things we investigated. And yeah, that's more on a government level. and indeed, yeah, corporate espionage. So, insider fed, if a company note there's something going on that there's information suddenly leaking to the press or to the outside world that's not supposed to. And sometimes it's even steered by government and directed that it's on request of a certain government. As you all know, the Chinese have a long history in trying to steal intellectual property.

And specifically for a country as the Netherlands, where we always say we have a very open economy. There's no way to protect our knowledge because we're proud of exporting it all over the world. So that's a positive thing. But the downside of it is, of course, that everybody is in a way very naive, that there are countries who have a shopping list. and they want certain high-tech industry knowledge and how to manufacture certain chips. Very famous company we have in the Netherlands as well, chip-making machines. But of course also, in famous examples in the past were by one of our engineers helped exporting the... the neutron bomb to Pakistan to make sure that they got the atom weapons that they still have,

all because of espionage in a university, technical university environment. So these are the things we either assisting creating awareness, giving training and make them better prepared, or we investigated the case itself, and then we do that in combination with the company of course to try to find out what's going on and then tell us about the resilience summit yeah so that's the summit at the end of the year first and second of december um um europe is is already in a in a hybrid war phase so it's we're not war mongers we're um just observance we of course uh my colleagues and everybody who's working with us within intelligence or security background. They know this already for a longer time, but sometimes it's not what it seems,

or that it's not as it looks. That knowledge of what's going on behind the scenes is now something we would put at work in trying to create awareness that the hybrid warfare stage is pretty much developed already, that the drone attacks are now everyday subject. It might not be an attack, but disturbing flights or airports. And then there's a long range of things that are already happening for a longer time from Europe. The most bizarre story is still that the Russians tried to, they were testing the route through DHS, whereby they sent some packages that exploded in a warehouse in Germany. The package was meant to explode in the air in an airplane.

Holy shit. We have a collective trauma here in the Netherlands. of MH17, of course, that was one of the biggest war crimes that was our 9-11. But to imagine that the Russians tried this again last year with a logistic flight. And that was just a test route for the real goal was packages going from Europe to the US and tried to target US transport. And I think your government, this was I think all discovered or written down by New York Times, but it's a bizarre story that at the point, if you can believe in the newspaper,

that your government had to really draw a red line and to Putin say, okay, now this is not hybrid anyway, this is an act of war. If you're continuing, well, excuse my face, but shit hits the van, then it's the end of any normal relationship. But the fact that this took place and that it happened, and that they got away with it, and then, of course, the cables that were cutted in the north, see that's all Dutch economic zone, the shadow fleet, that's just sanction invasion.

But if you map out the landscape of all the incidents, we are in a code red hybrid warfare already. So the summit, the intelligence is all summit in the beginning of December is to look at this from an intelligence perspective. So we invite some very experienced people, with an intelligence background or with a political background, but then former prime minister, or with the corporate security background, been there, seen ransomware attacks, killing their business or with the state actor involved. So we want to bring together the people that really knows what they're talking about, to talk about a subject that should be on everybody's agenda right now,

if you're on a sea level, on the board of a company, how to create resilience against this hybrid world for us. We say it, how to disarm an invisible enemy. So that's what we hope to achieve with this two-day summit in December. Jason, you got anything else? Do we have any questions, Steve? No. Okay. So, Tim, I mean, thank you for this interview. We really appreciate some of these unique insights. Is there anything else that I haven't asked that you'd really like to talk about before we get going? That's, I know from my own interview techniques, that's, that's the most dangerous question

there is. I had one agent who always ended this conversation that way, as in not exactly how you put it, but it was like, okay, was this it? And then we were all trying to, okay, now, okay, goodbye to you next time. and we're almost ready to stand up. And then he said, I got this one little thing you might find interesting.

And that basically, in that last second was always, it was every meeting with him was the same. That last second was gold. And we're all waiting for it. It's okay. Now this time to say, I have this one thing.

But no, I don't have anything else. So thank you for the conversation. We do have one question here. Tim, who blew up the Nord Stream pipeline? to the best of your knowledge wow I'm reading the newspaper nowadays with red ears really like

because if this is all true then indeed the Ukrainian team that don't know all by themselves I was fierce from the beginning I said that's not possible it must be some double quote with the Russians one way or the other but like it now looks like

what I'm reading in the newspaper that they shoot in their own foot big time by doing this by themselves. The big question is now, was it authorized, but Ukrainian government, was it authorized by Zelensky or not? And I think that's the missing piece that's not written down.

But the rest of it looks like it. One arrest after others made right now. So I hope it doesn't distract them from winning this war. One more question. What intelligence agency in Europe, in your opinion, and outside of the one that you worked for for 21 years is the best, or the most competent, I guess, or most up-and-coming maybe.

Maybe there's a country out there that's really stepping it up. Well, it sounds like trying to avoid the question, but I mean it in a way that it has an advantage of being younger service because it was this famous quote that I think was last year in The Economist, whereby somebody, I think it was from SIS, So as I said, MI6, might have you five, said, okay, the best thing we can do now is shut down the whole building and the whole organization and rebuild it again because of, it's so difficult with all the legacy to connect the new systems and to adapt the newest technology. And then we're not even talking about the artificial intelligence. But the fact that there's so much legacy to keep on building on that, it's killing them.

So this lady said we can better just break it all down. start all over again. So there's some new services that are so now adaptive in new technology. And I think they are the ones who are promising new and quick on their feet. But also also some, I mean, I have to say it. I mean, I think the Brits invented this whole game and I still admire their humor and also the creativity. But no, there's a there's a, there's a, there's a, competition in in niches and and and for every every service in Europe I can think of something that they're really good in and took their niche the Dutch definitely for sure took their niche in cyber for a while and we're really ahead of that game with some sort of the best hackers in the world

so so no it's um they're they're all pretty good if there's my two sense if there's one up and coming that I think is very impressive or not even up and coming but the Polish intelligence service. AW, I believe they're called Agents of Avadu. Yep, yep. They're, but they're not only good because they're they're very clever and but they are now excelling also because they understand the Russian mentality. So they're they're basically educated by them and then not as in they're the fiercest enemies and they're motivated because i think non-stop they're thinking you might be next um so there's there's no service you can find a year that's better motivated and uh and better equipped now also vegetarian wise than the polish one so yeah your two cents might be um the the good one

worth a lot of money thank you tim and we will have some links down the description for our to the Birdwatcher group if you guys would like to go out and retain Tim's services and his teammates over there. So that'll be in the description for people who are listening to the podcast or watching this on YouTube. Anything else, guys, before we roll out of here. It's awesome. Yeah, thank you, Tim. My pleasure. Hey, guys, I want to tell all of you today about a new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both the Team House podcast, the Eyes on podcast, and the high-size-on podcast, and the high-size-

news outlet, which I run with Sean Naylor. The newsletter is going to be once a week. It's going to come into your inbox and you're going to get the most current podcasts on Aizon and the team house and whatever's topical or current on the high side. So it's another way for us to get the information out to you as social media algorithms are pretty iffy and you never really know what you're going to get. So this is a once a week email. It'll slide into your inbox and it will have, you know, the greatest hits of that week. It's really good, man. Checking it out. The website for it is teamhousepodcast.com slash join.

Teamhousepodcast.com.com slash join. Go there and you enter into your email list or you enter your email into the little thing on the website and you're good to go and that'll be it. So we really appreciate your support and hope you'll consider signing up. Where's the link? The link will also be down the description if you're looking for it there. And that's teamhousepodcast.com.kittkiloindia tango.com backslash join.