The Team House - Inside the Dept of Homeland Security | Erik Rosenblatt | Ep. 346

Episode Date: May 14, 2025

As a former HSI and DHS agent, Erik was on the front lines of major operations targeting cartels, human traffickers, cybercriminals, and terrorists. He played a direct role in taking down El Chapo and has extensive experience in high-stakes investigations, from infiltrating organized crime networks to combating emerging threats in cybercrime and counterterrorism.New merch, patches, and stickers! ⬇️https://theteamhouse-shop.fourthwall.comSupport the show here:⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse___________________________________________________Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured—————————————————————-Today's Sponsors:Mando ⬇️https://shopmando.comPromo code "TEAMHOUSE" for 40% off your starter pack.GhostBed⬇️https://www.ghostbed.com/houseFOR 10% off! ___________________________________Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/——————————————————————To help support the show and for all bonus content including:https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse-AD FREE AUDIO-AD FREE VIDEO-Access to ALL bonus segments with our guestsSubscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseOr make a one time donation at: ⬇️https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouseSocial Media: ⬇️The Team House Instagram:https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_linkThe Team House Twitter:https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePodJack’s Instagram:https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_linkJack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21Team House Discord: ⬇️https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6SubReddit: ⬇️https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample"Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio"Want to sponsor the show?Email: ⬇️[e-mail] a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Special operations. Covert Ops. Espionage. The Team House. With your hosts, Jack Murphy and David Park. Hey, everyone. This is episode 346 of the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with Dave Park.

And our guest on today's show is Eric Rosenblatt. He is a former Department of Homeland Security agent. Had a lot of experience in New York and D.C., but also international investigations, working on everything from narco to counter human trafficking, lots of different stuff that we're going to get into in this episode. Eric, welcome to the show, man. Great to be here. Thank you so much.

Looking forward to this. Yeah, thanks for coming on. So you told us before the show you're from Long Island originally. Tell us a little bit about growing up in Long Island and how that sort of the pathway that you took to federal law enforcement. Yeah, I mean, I lived up to. every stereotype, Long Island stereotype, you know, gel in the hair, polyester shirt, you know, tanning. We're the original, you know, Jim, tan laundry folks.

But I grew up in, you know, typical Long Island, you know, suburban life. I had great parents, great upbringing. I did okay in school. I did well. It bored me a lot of the times, but I enjoyed some of it. I grew up in a neighborhood where it wasn't law enforcement, it oriented. There wasn't a lot of people in civil service. It was a lot of accountants and other things.

And, you know, it was really hard to resist that path. I did have a sense that I wanted to be a physician. I always wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon. It seemed like a good path. I was certainly interested in it. I studied it in college. But then I was faced with certain organic chemistry and some other classes. and I'll pretend to think that I could push through that and went to med school and been successful.

But perhaps I like to think that I had a higher calling. Not that being a physician is not a high calling, but I always felt a sense of I needed to do something, you know, civil service, protect, defend. I seem to be that guy a lot of times growing up with a little sister, of course. I was always out there ready to fight on her behalf and others. And I think it just transitioned to like, you know, I was looking at this career ahead of me to be a physician while worthwhile. But then I just knew that I had to fulfill a mission that I felt like I had to do. It was it was a sense of duty and I couldn't deny it. And, you know, so I went through college and then suddenly took a turn and realized, hey, man, like, this is where I got to, this is what I have to do.

And I started a turn the, I started a new chapter in my, in my, education in my pursuits. So were you state or local law enforcement before going federal? No. I went to right to federal, which is, it's a blessing in a curse, right? Because, you know, I always, like I said, I had the ambitions of being in law enforcement. And this is where people sometimes go wrong. There's, there's a wide range of law enforcement. Like, to your point, you have local law enforcement. I mean, you're, you're in uniform, you're out there. You're, you know, you're in the moment, right? You're, you're explaining to calls. You're doing types of different types of work. You have tours, you know, you see things on the daily that are just,

you know, unreasonable for a human to see for 20 years, right, until they retire, hopefully, you know, to make the retirement. I always was interested in behind the scenes, you know, the snatch and grab, you know, surveillance, rather than just, you know, not just rather, where, you know, wearing a uniform patrolling while, you know, very rarely would, where the young man grow up and not think that's incredibly interesting. But I just, I knew as I broke it down that I knew that I wanted to do, I want to be a federal special agent. I knew that I wanted to do federal law enforcement.

And I'm lucky and I'm grateful that I had some mentors as I was making that transition from being a physician to, you know, this world of federal law enforcement, that I had some guidance to help me understand that the path, and what the path is. I think it benefits a ton having that local law enforcement experience and then transitioning to federal agents, being a federal agent, in lieu of maybe perhaps being a detective at the local agency. There's a lot of pros. There's certainly a lot of cons. I'm happy to discuss that. But I'm grateful that I took my path, and I don't feel like I missed out. But, you know, I do see how it's certainly helpful going from one to the other. So I'm trying to work out the timeline in my own mind. As I recall, Department of Homeland Security came after 9-11. Right. What year is this that you're getting into law enforcement? Yeah. So this is in the late 90s, you know, even though I hate saying that. I started out with the U.S. Customs Service Office of Investigations.

Right. So I had, you know, again, I had a lot of mentors. I had a mentor from the FBI. I had a mentor from DEA and customs. And I got to tell you, like, I sat down with all of them. And I would have been lucky to be at any agency. But then I sat down with a guy from Customs. And, you know, the front, someone from FBI is like, yeah, we do bank, you know, bank robbery and all kinds of things. I'm like, that's pretty cool, you know, a little point break there. You know, I could get into that. But then the guy from Customs is like, he takes out his, I remember, he takes out his Smith and he has rubber bands around it, like the handle, the grip.

And he's telling me about all these wild things that he's. you know, he's done in the past few weeks. I'm like, yeah, I'll do that. And super great, you know, I came in, man, like, I was just like a state, you know, I was a normal guy. I didn't have any remarkable experience, like, in military or, you know, prior police. But that's the thing about federal law enforcement. It's like you would expect that certainly, like, there's a preference in some areas.

If you know how to, if you're an operator or if you have some police experience or certainly if you're a detective, prior detective experience, that's an incredible turnkey opportunity for an agency to hire. But the thing is with that type of job with being a special agent for pretty much any of the agencies, it's all about life experience or just perspective or ability to write. Because at the end of the day, you know, you can do all these cool things as an agent, but your job is to report facts, to write reports, to collect evidence and testify about it. Yeah, certainly you get to do cool things.

You get to hit doors and conduct surveillance and travel internationally. But it's in pursuit of making cases. It's not, you know, it's not just fun. So it takes, it's, there's a wide, that's what the beauty thing, the beautiful thing about federal law enforcement is because you have so many people. I work with true heroes, true operators from military. And then I worked with, you know, people had, I worked with the guy who was a chiropractor, fire life, a lot of attorneys, a lot of, you know, this and that.

So it's a pretty wild scene, but, you know, people come together for a reason. Can you tell us about customs? Because that's not really, you know, like when I think of customs, I think of people like checking shit that comes off of flight, right? Can you tell us, like, the law enforcement roles and, you know, the breadth of the operations that you guys have? Sure. So prior to 9-11, you know, before the creation of Homeland Security, the customs department was under Treasury, right? Because the primary purpose of customs established in 1789 was to collect taxes, right? So from there you have the typical, so there's two parts of custom service.

And in the enforcement side, you had the field ops, which is the people you see at the airport, the inspectors at the time they were called going through items, you know, at the airports or ports of entry, you know, for looking for contraband, but also for a greater purpose of collecting tax. then you had a smaller unit of customs called Office of Investigations. Probably at the time was about 2,500 special agents. I mean, we can say globally. And the customs special agents were the U.S. primary investigators for border crimes. So anything to do with an international nexus was a customs investigation.

The very cool thing about it is that takes us, you know, that takes us everywhere. That took us everywhere. But then you also have overlap with, you know, if agencies like the DEA, you know, DEA is the government's drug enforcement administration, right? So you can have overlap certainly internationally because, you know, for the most part, especially back in the, you know, 80s, 90s, and in the early 2000s, drugs were imported from Colombia, Mexico, you know, other areas, Middle East. So you had overlap.

So those cost two things. One, it was a great thing because my first partner was a DE agent. Basically, we just did everything together. and it worked out incredibly well. But then it also caused a lot of, you know, there's a lot of territory, you know, conflict and people trying to make cases and get promoted and bosses that want, you know,

they want to, they want to position at the podium for a press conference. So, you know, that's, and I think that led to one of the reasons that the, you know, the Department of Homeland Security was created because you had that overlap, you had that friction, you know, as an agency, you had the ability to not collaborate on cases.

And that's, you know, one of the things that transformed the government after 9-11. So the U.S. Customs Service ultimately, to this day, is now, you know, the office investigations, is now Homeland Security investigations, the primary investigative branch of Homeland Security, where I was. And then the inspector branch, the uniformed personnel of Customs Service transition to Customs and Border Protection, which is under the Homeland Security Department, but now includes border patrol.

So you have the agents, the border agents in between ports, and then you have the CBPO officers at the ports of entry. You know, on that note, you said that you worked out of Building 6 at the World Trade Center. I did. Tell us about 9-11 and what that was like for you. Yeah, I mean, I was just a few months in. I started my career, you know, I had, I started my career, you know, with the Customs Service, and it was assigned to a task. force that covered JFK. I did that for several years and it was an honor to, you know, start my career with the NYPD on a task force. After doing that for several years, in the, I think it was

June or July of 2001, I was sent to work at the main customs office at Sixth World Trade Center on this financial crimes group working money laundering cases, with cartel money laundering cases. So, you know, I was there for a few months. experience of working at that building of NOAA's in the building frequently, you know, for, you know, just to collaborate with the main office people. And one of the wonderful things about the World Trade Center is that it was a little known that there was a fire, there was a range underneath that we used. So that was pretty cool, right? Like, yeah. Surprise, surprise. Yeah. So, you know, we go qualify at the range. We'd quietly walk through a door. There was an escalator going up to, you know,

from the lower floor of the trade center up to the, up to ground level. And we just walk out, know, you have no clue what's going on in there. So that was, that was pretty special. Yeah, I was, I was on assignment, temporary assignment in Florida, Florida and the day one and the towers are hit. It was a pretty incredible time. You know, I thought, I didn't know what was happening. I saw it on the news with everyone else. We brought in the TV, watched the towers get hit. You know, obviously, you can imagine what was going through my mind like everyone else, but I'm like, two things went through my mind like oh shit like a couple things we're at war um you know people are going to die and then i left my friends behind like it was really painful right so we're up seeing

there with other agents in the room and we're like you know it was the only one from new york i think and uh it was just too much it was a lot and of course my instinct was to grab my i never need a go bag i just grab whatever is around and was just ready to head back out and uh you know that stalled a bit because, you know, of obvious reasons, they didn't want anybody. They wanted a groundstop of everyone, accountability and make sure everyone's all right. Yeah, so then the next day, not even, to their credit, you know, sometimes you have just great leaders. One of the senior leaders of the Florida office that we're at hand me his car keys, his G-Rod keys, his government car, and said, go, right? So he handed me the keys and I just drove straight up to New York, you know, rendezvoused with everyone who was, you know, thankfully no one was lost.

everyone got out before the second tower you know the towers came down and then I was able to get back there like a day later and just you know work that mound so that was the next few weeks of our lives working that you know working the site and then working and then eventually working our way to the off site in Staten Island called Freshkill where all the a lot of the building the the debris and other things you know if you know if you know what I mean, we're transported by barge to satin island, and that's where we sifted through all the material for several weeks. So, you know, we're talking about looking for evidence. Yeah, like, yeah, for evidence. So, well, so we sifted through evidence, you know, for evidence. And then, but, you know, this is, this is really stuck with me. We sit through the evidence and, you know, is pretty surreal in the sense. I've only had a couple years on that job, you know, and, you know, when you get on, like I said, you don't immediately, you don't have that experience like you do as a detective where you have several years as patrol into your belt to deal with that kind of trauma. I mean, you see terrible things as an agent. You see, you know, you could certainly be in danger and you can see terrible things, especially when it comes to child exploitation and human trafficking. You know, you see terrible things. But nothing, you know, like, nothing, you know, that's when shit got real. That's like if you became an agent just because you want to pretend where you thought it was cool on TV. that's when things become real.

You know, and then so you realize how important it is that you, you know, you just collect evidence, but you become numb to it, right? A lot of people, I have friends, five or six friends that I work with on the mountain who passed away to blood disease at this point. It's a reality. Right. You know, I live with that on the daily and it's tough to think about, especially with family and friends, you know, I'm just monitoring my health.

So if anything stuck with me, it's, you know, certainly one of them. But getting back to that point, we collected evidence and there was a couple buckets. I mean, so we were on this, we were at Freshco. And it was just a big area. And then the bulldozers will come in and dump debris material. And then they would spread it out. And then we would all have our white outfits on, pretending we were being smart. You know, I mean, there's dust flying everywhere.

We'd have our, you know, we go into these white tents and with tacky floors. And then we take off masks thinking like, you know, that we were going to, like, we're in a safe spot. You know, like there's nothing to see here. Our health is going to be fine in the future. But, you know, we go out, we do these grid patterns. And you'd find material, evidence, you know, sensitive material, perhaps, and then you put it in certain buckets. But there was this one bucket. It was a red bucket.

And it was the ME. So sometimes you'd find something. And it looked like wood, perhaps, right? You'd think it was a piece of wood. But it could be bone. And I remember this very clearly. Like, everyone would stop if someone picks something up. and someone you think and someone starts walking towards that red bucket it's like oh they found they found

you know some they found a body or some evidence of a body and it wasn't because like oh they found it's just like I truly believe first and foremost in their minds is like we just identified somebody who's lost and you know it was it's a trying experience and if you weren't if your head wasn't in the game after that, like after picking up those materials, or if you see like a wallet, I found how many wallets with family photos in it or a bag of like gifts in the World Trade Center gift shop and, you know, with the receipt in it and it was just left there, you know, like, but it was, it really just it kind of matured you very quickly. And I could say, you know, it's almost like family from all the different agencies who participated in, I mean, going back so long ago, you know, it's a family

now. But, you know, you just hope for that. that as the ME came around to pick up that red bucket, to look through the red bucket, everyone would stop again. And they would watch the MEs go through it and then to see if they picked up something that was, they believe is a bone fragment or if it was, you know, something other and they just put it aside. And then it was pretty satisfying when they walked, when they, they got back on their golf cart and they drove away with that. You know that perhaps like, you know, you found somebody, you know, and then there'll be some closure. So, you know, that, you know, that kind of woke you up. And then

the other part of that is you know, work, you know, spent a lot of time with everyone else from, you know, from customs and all the different agencies driving around, you know, sitting on the, you know, the mountains, going through the, you know, the pile at the trade center, you know,

and it was, you know, it was pretty wild. And going back to that scene, it was surreal because, you know, sort of like, you know, wait, different than it is now. There was a time when we were walking around in uniform or just ray jackets with, I would literally have an MP5. I remember this. I was walking around downtown Manhattan with an MP5 hanging down, going to get lunch at a supermarket. And it was just, you know, where are we? What's going on here? And people would come up and hug you or I'm buying,

you're not paying for lunch. And then there would be that, you know, West Side Highway, that wall of people with signs, thanking law enforcement, thank you all you do. And like, I felt bad that they were out there doing that because this is my job. And, you know, I was grateful and embarrassed, you know, because I, you know, I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. But, you know, so at this, you know, it was a horrible time. But at the same time, it was, it was unique and special in the sense that it brought so many people together, you know, to get shit done as a law enforcement, you know, a law enforcement effort, but also like community, which was, it was since been lost, for sure. So also during your early years, you guys, you guys, you guys, you guys, you guys, you

involved in the narco stuff with NYPD. Let's talk a little bit about that. And then I guess we'll start as Homeland Security comes on the scene, talk about that transition. Yeah. Got on at the Academy, you know, I, you know, just like everyone else, we thought you were hot shit. You know, had this brand new badge. You know, like I said, the brand new 5-11, tactical pants, clean, you know, brand new holster, shiny. And listen, if you weren't put in your place.

So then my first assignment, thankfully, it was worked with the, you know, the finest, like, you know, NYPD detectives. So then, you know, and they called this out. Like, you know, it had this, it was a U.S. Customs Investigations, you know, and NYPD task force. And we were at the airport, and the purpose of it was to, at the time when archives was coming in to the airports, especially Kennedy, it was hand over fist.

I mean, we couldn't respond quick enough. We didn't have enough people to respond to all the calls for the interception of cocaine and heroin. It could be inside people swallow it. It could be on their person. It could be stuck inside them. It could be in suitcases. I mean, there's a million different ways. So our responsibility was to respond to your, you know, like we discussed before, to the uniform part of customs, who would then detain them.

And then we come over and we conduct the investigation outside the port of entry, i.e. the airport. It could be in between ports at the land borders. But in this case, it was the airport. Hey, guys, it's Jack. I want to tell you guys about the. sponsor for today's show. It's Mando. Mando makes a whole series of male grooming products. They are unique in that there are a deodorant that you can use all over your body on armpits, if you like, but also wherever else you may deem necessary. And I have been using these products

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The bar of soap is also very cool. It was very smooth, actually. So I hope you guys will go and check them out. They have a starter kit that's up there, and they have a special deal for Teamhouse viewers. So the starter pack is perfect for, new customers, it comes with a solid stick deodorant, cream tube deodorant, two free products of your choice, like mini body wash and deodorant wipes and free shipping. As a special offer for

listeners, new customers get $5 off a starter pack with our exclusive code. That equates to over 40% off your starter pack. Use code team house at shopmando.com. That's sh-o-m-a-n-d-com. Please support our show and tell them we. sent you. Smell fresher, stay drier, and boost your confidence from head to toe with Mando. So we would conduct control deliveries and, you know, it was just incredible time because here I am, like I said, freshly out of the academy, all shiny and cool. And then I just get schooled on the deli by these seasoned NYPD detectives. Right. Been to all, saw it all. And like, I remember, you know, and this is the thing about my experience there. It wasn't like, hey,

come in and, you know, take a breath and learn. I walked in the second day, it's like, here's your case. Go. Right? And go interview them. Collect the evidence. You know, I mean, it was just, okay, you know? Sure.

But I remember the, when I realized my first case of like, okay, this shit's real is that I was out. We were doing a couple search warrants with NYPD. We're doing with NYPD narcotics outside the airport. So again, these, they're in the street every day hitting bodega. is hitting houses. And we're walking in again, you know, with I was wearing so embarrassing. We're in a blue collar shirt. And similar to us with the fadge and my blue, my tan pants and, you know, let's do this. I walk in. These guys are wearing like, they have 308s on their hips hanging down. And I remember a guy had in his vest. He flipped it open. He was about to put

it on and said, my blood type is a whatever. I'm like, holy crap. Like, okay, you know. And then, So that was my first real, okay, that's, you know, that was, I'm really in law enforcement. And, you know, so I learned a lot from that. I learned everything from them. And of course, the seasoned agents. Okay. So then, you know, wonderful experience. I worked, international, you know, narcotics cases. I got, I mean, how many, you know, I did so many, you know, had trials. I had, you know, dozens of arrests that put cuffs on people. I had foot chase, you know, gunpoint. I mean, there's nothing I didn't experience in those first few years. years, which is really unusual for federal law enforcement because in other agencies and other

offices, you could go a year or two and not even put cuffs on somebody unless it's, you know, in custody. It's like, I can't tell you how many times. So I had that remarkable experience where I think set myself up and certainly the people in the New York office like me for success, right? And it also weeded out. It separated the people, the real deal, the people that had it that were right for the job and, you know, from the people that were wrong for the job. The people that were wrong for the job, you know, we took a side job, you know, like, you know, administrative or more white-collar types of cases. But that experience really taught you, like, what you're made for. Are you ready for, you know, are you ready for violence?

Are you, do you understand that, you know, these people are, you know, that you're up against are real bad people and not just make believe? You know, it's not. And that's, you know, and it was a remarkable experience. After, after several years, that's when I transitioned and moved. to the World Trade Center. And then, you know, man, even just, you know, the few months before the towers are hit, I worked on in money laundering operations, undercover ops, targeting the cartels, Colombian cartels, and conducting money laundering, undercover money laundering operations against them,

to, you know, to identify their money laundering networks, and certainly their smuggling networks. it was remarkable experience and then to credit before we move on I'd just love to hear a little bit more about like the money wandering

like how do you identify it how do you track it without giving away TTPs not that I'm sitting here taking notes but I mean I am kind of interested to know how they do that he's not working for the

Cinelloloa cartel I promise yeah listen no listen it was it was the government has the ability like okay, so part of what you brought up before, like part of this, of the purpose of, you know,

of being an agent is collecting evidence. By collecting evidence, you also arrest people and you flip them because really there's nothing better than a cooperating, you know, like a cooperator or a confidential informant. Sure. You know, you're dealing with bad people doing bad things, but you cannot do your job without their help, right? And sometimes you have to keep your enemies closer, right? So, you know, whether or not you, you, you, you flip somebody and they become an informant and they cooperate, or you arrest somebody and then they become a cooperating defendant pursuing to an agreement, of course, with the U.S. Attorney's Office and everything. So the way that you went about it is like, you know, like when you sell lots of drugs in

the United States, the money has to go back to Columbia, right? So let's use Columbia, for example. So what better way to identify the money launderers than become a money launder yourself? And then that was an authorization that the U.S. government had to conduct in these money laundering operations. So it's pretty simple. You know, you conduct the, you know, you pick up money from the, locally from the, from the drug dealers and from their operatives in the, in the New York area, for example. And then you launder the money to Columbia. And then you identify, you see where the money goes. And then you collect, you know, then you put, then you wait and you wait and you wait.

You know, like you hear, like fellow cases take years sometimes. and you just wait, and then you just bring down the hammer, and you rip the organization apart, at least temporarily, right? Dismantle, disrupt, and you do what you can. And then you arrest, you know, everything is in cooperation with, you know, foreign governments. I don't think people appreciate nor they, should they have any insight, typically on how important international cooperation is in the law enforcement world.

You know, like working with the Colombians and working with, you know, the prosecutors and having people embedded in Colombia, from the U.S. government at the embassies is it's a remarkable thing. It's the only way it could work. And we had those ability. We had that ability then and now. So it's like a large scale, like what's the term the law enforcement uses when they let a certain amount of money walk, right? Yeah, money walk. Yeah. Yeah. And it sounds like this was kind of on a grander scale. It's a pretty grand scale. But, you know, listen, it's, yeah, it's, there's, it's not easy. There's a lot of risk. You know, you have undercover agents.

you have, you know, you have these cooperators who are by true nature, just, you know, they're bad, you know, they're really bad. And, you know, there's a lot you're putting them. They're in danger. They're in danger in themselves by cooperating if it's discovered that they're working with the government. But we did the best we can. And, you know, I had no experience with losing any cooperators because we're just

professionals and we took it seriously. Okay. So after you were a lawful money wanderer, what was the next step for you in your career? Yeah. And then I just, you know, after a couple years of, you know, I spent, as we transition to the Department of Homeland Security. Right. So after, you know, after the 9-11 attacks, the government kind of just said, hey, listen, we need to do better internally. we need to, you know, have

less, almost like interagency cooperation. It should be just partnerships. And that was their attempt to be determined if it was successful or not. You know, it's still, it's just, you still have humans doing, you know, like I said, you have people

who want to make cases on their own. You have people who want to get promoted. You know, it's just, you know, so everyone's going to try to run amok. But they created the Department of Homeland Security in the attempt to streamline things. And part of it, was the dismantling, getting rid of the Department of U.S. Customs Service. U.S. Customs Service, you know, it was taken apart.

And then the part that I worked in was, you know, ultimately now what's called Homeland Security Investigations, which is the investigative branch of Homeland Security, right? So if you could call it almost like the equivalent of the FBI to the Justice Department, right, was sort of like a catch-all, anything to do with the border and other, you know, and certainly some domestic claims, but it's a very big agency. It's fairly new in Brandon, you know, so compared to the FBI, which is plus 100 years old, and DEA started out in the 70s and ATF and, you know, all these other agencies. So it's a really wonderful organization, very powerful with a lot of jurisdictions.

So I was able to, you know, like I said, I grew up in a normal household. My dad was an accountant, debits and credits. He thought it was the coolest thing in the world. I'm like, I don't get it. You're weird. And then what happens? I go, they're like, hey, Eric, you're going to go work, you know, like, you're going to work these money laundering cases. And then after 9-11, they signed me to these terrorist financing cases. And I'm like,

oh, God, like, this is going to be awful. But I realized how terrific finance or crimes are. Because, you know, why do people do bad things, except for, you know, these savages in 9-11, you know, and MS-13 and other, you know, violent crime, you know, gangs, violent gangs, international and domestic gangs who just kill for fun or pleasure. I don't know what it is. You know, these networks, these transnational criminal organizations and local criminals do it for profit. Right. So like it was a wonderful, like the concept of working financial crime cases, which is a priority for Homeland Security investigations, is to go after the money.

Right. So I got and I just realized like, wow, this is for me. So, you know, I owe my father, you know, an apology. He had passed, but I didn't get the chance to tell him. But, you know, I was wrong. He was right. Devenson credits are pretty cool. But because there's nothing more satisfying.

I mean, there's a lot of things. but in that job, but then taking people shit away from them after they risked everything. Yeah. Like seizing it, freezing it, and then it was just such a gratifying thing. And then the cool thing is, and people don't appreciate is that, you know, you could have people do several different kinds of criminal activity. You could have them doing human smuggling or terrorism or, you know, gun trafficking. At the end of the day, if you hit them with a money laundering charge,

that's going to put them out for 20. years. So like, you know, and then so if you could build, and that's why we targeted the cartels this way, right, because it was a really good charge. It was a money on a new charge and you have conspiracy and you have smuggling. So it really just set the bandwidth of all these opportunities to charge them. And I imagine, you know, follow the money that helped you like map out the network, right? Follow the money. I mean, you know, that's what we used to say. Follow the money. And then, yeah, and that's just, And so it's great because then you look at these cartels when you, you know,

cartel is synonymous with trafficking drugs, right? But cartels, you know, cartels will do anything to make money. They'll traffic people. They'll traffic things. You know, they'll do anything they need to do to make money. Oil, you know, you're seeing that oil. In Mexico. But the cool thing is, like I said, if you can't, as long as you can prove that they're

trafficking something and you can, and they make money, and you can trace the money, to your point, follow the money, you can make a money-looner case, and that really hurts. You know, that's a ton of leverage, and it's cool because one, you know, put them away for a long time. Like I said, take their shit and then perhaps flip them, right? Because it's a pretty hard charge to look at, you know, if you're looking at that kind of time. And one of the things about working for the federal government, you know, you hear the term, you know, the phrase, don't make a federal case out of it. So the benefit of being a Fed is, you know, your cases, you can pick and choose your cases. And, you know, with the U.S. Attorney's Office, especially in New York, being so powerful and just, you know, really smart, you know, they're going to take cases only that where they know they could win for the most part.

I mean, there's risk and they'll take their chances. But if you're indicted by the feds, you know, say a prayer because, you know, it's a good chance. The probabilities you're going to be charged and you can be convicted either by the jury or where you can plead out. So it's a really good incentive to have people flip too. So then we have that pool of things. So, you know, there's all, so I really just, I enjoyed financial crimes, conducting, you know, money laundering and financial frauds, crimes so much.

I spent my career, that's my career, focusing on that with some diversions and to other things as they move through the ranks. But I, for several years, you know, working these financial crime cases, I then became the head of what's called the Eldorado Financial Crimes Task Force, which is the largest and most important, I think it's, you know, it's the most important financial crimes task force in the world. It's a place where you have almost all the federal and local agencies, you know, working and then you have international agencies working in one office at Homeland Security Investigations conducting financial crimes.

And that's really where that's the, we're talking about the Homeland Security Department, its inception and the idea behind it of like, let's work together in the same room. you know, so we have to look at each of each other in the eyes before we screw each other kind of thing. And it's been a success for over 30 years. So I had the great opportunity for several years to run that task force, which it was a remarkable experience. And then, you know, through the years I was brought into Washington, D.C., you know, talking about cons, about being a Fed as opposed to local. You know, local, you're going to go home. The worst you could do, if you screw up, you get what's called highway therapy, right?

If you're working in a great precinct of Manhattan and then they're going to make you drive two hours to Staten Island for a couple of months. With feds, not that you know, so much punishing you, but you know, you're signing up to work anywhere in the country. You're not forced to work internationally, but that's an option. So technically I could, you know, I could go to Washington.

I could go to Texas. I could go wherever. But as you move through the ranks, Washington, D.C. is a smart move because that's where you learn, that's where you learn, you know, the bureaucracy and become a bureaucrat and, you know, learn how to tie your tie and make a nod. But it's important to know how things work.

So I spent several years in headquarters. I had a great opportunity during the uprising and the Arab uprising to join the Department of Justice and Treasury working on those cases, looking at Mombard's cabinet and looking for, you know, kleptu. Yeah, that was, yeah, that was a special time in my life, too. During the Arab Springs. So they were trying to, like, nail bad actors? Because, like, I was reading about it recently, actually, how there's, like, this push and poll in the United States government depending on the day. Some days we were like, yeah, we like the Arab Spring. Other days we're like, we don't. But there's all these concerns that Mubarak was our

boy for so long. Do we really want him out? Tell us a little from your perspective. Yeah. So, you know, it was frustrating because, you know, we had some clarity in what was going on. And, you know, you talk about what's called kleptocrats. Cleptocracy is essentially just, you know, people in power, whether it's appointed or elected or just, you know, taken, people who have influence in government to then steal from the government, you know, like almost like as a, you know, like, as an organized crime unit, right? Like they're conducting criminal activity and taking from, so that had a lot to do what was going on with the Arab Spring. So when Barak's cabinet and people around him were, you know,

they were accused of, you know, of taking a lot of money and operating on their own behalf. And, you know, so it was frustrating in the sense to your point where, you know, we'd make these great cases. We travel the world. We, you know, we'd find cooperators and we thought we had pretty damn good cases. But then, you know, like to your point, depending on the mood, on the moment, you know, maybe that case, maybe it's not the right time to take down this case. Maybe it's not the right time to, you know, to put this on the front, you know, in the news. So let's, you know, let's defer this case for a while.

What would you be charging those people with? Because, I mean, you know, we're talking about foreign citizens, right? Yeah. But a lot of them had property and facilitated movement. money through the United States. That's the thing. You know, there's a nexus. If you, if you touch an ATM in Manhattan, good luck. Because then, you know, the U.S. Attorney's Office has that in the Southern District in New York, so, or the Eastern District. So, yeah, so you would have that, you know, and then you would, so as long as you find some nexus to the United States, how it affects

the United States, you have, you have a case. So, you know, and then that was just a wonderful experience, too. That brought me onto the international stage. I got to work, you know, certainly when I was working in narcotics. I had a lot of travel, you know, to South America, essentially, and Argentina, Colombia and elsewhere, which was, which was terrific. But then, you know, I got a lot of, I got a lot of travel because then, you know, a lot of the potential cooperators were located all over the world. You know, they were hiding out in the corner somewhere and we come knocking on the door and they're like, uh-oh. So it was some of the more interesting experiences traveling abroad that you can share. Yeah, I mean, I had one experience. I was, uh,

Yeah, I was in the Middle East and I was there for, I was there for two reasons. I was there to work a case, but I was there to also instruct. So there's two parts of that, you know, that there's, there was a two-part trip. And one of them, I was part of this instruction crew and we were instructing their intelligence and police force. And I was up at a podium in front of, you know, 30, 40 people and there was translation in the corner. and everyone was listening. And I had a block to teach on corruption, and calipotocracy.

And I was speaking and I was on a mic. And all of a sudden I started talking about how it's unacceptable to take money from a bribe or, and you should report anybody that, you know, that takes a bribe. And I had somebody stand up who was pretty large and walk up to me with like a lot of anger. And I didn't understand him. but he was he was a lecture

on how it's part of you know it's not unusual and there's nothing wrong with it and and I'm like okay and I used to tell by the spit coming out of his mouth and his posture that I should probably end this I didn't have to listen to what the translator was saying in my ear and I said okay well let's move on so that was that was pretty remarkable

but you know part of it was just exciting in the sense that I got to spend a lot of time with you know international law enforcement where I would have never otherwise experienced and for example We spent some time with their international police and their intelligence service. And they take us out, I remember us like it was yesterday, they take us out for fun at night. So we decided they're going to do, we're going to do these scenarios where we're on ATVs in the desert, in the night. And there's going to be role players who are going to be terrorists.

And we have to chase down, it was several hours, and we have to chase down these terrorists. We have to find them. We have to interview them. So I'm like, oh my God, like, how is this not the coolest thing in the world? Hey, guys, our show is sponsored by GhostBed. Check them out, please, they make awesome mattresses, awesome pillows, awesome bedding. Ghostbred provides high quality and super comfortable award-winning mattresses crafted in the U.S. and Canada. Did you know that 60% of the U.S. adults report being too hot when they're trying to sleep?

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We get driven to this location. You know, what's not in the desert? Light. So we're on these, they're like, all right. So we have these ATVs and then some people, you know, they dressed up to these terrorists. And then we get on these ATVs and we're at a point where I identified where they were. So then we're like, all right, so let's go chase them down. So I'm like, great.

This is cool. It's going to be like riding on the beach. Cool. No problem. We're on these ATVs flying through the desert, pitch dark, like nothing, except for our little headlight. And we go all of sight these big boulders. Right? I'm like, holy. So we're dodging all these boulders. And I'm like, okay, like, I'm in more of a head and over my head again. And then I'm thinking, I'm like, of course, what's the last thing you should do? Think about the consequence of your actions in the moment. I'm like, okay, so if I, something happens, if I flip and I break a bone and this and that, are they going to medevac me? No. I mean, I don't know what they're going to do. Put me on a camel. I had no clue. At TV, you know, back, you know, three hours until the nearest, you know, makeship hospital. But, man, it was so much fun. And then, you know, so, but those of the experience. I mean, how do you, like, you know, 14 year old Eric, you know, like if you saw that, you know. Yeah, yeah. I was those, you know, listen, I had, you know, like I said, the ups and downs of this job. It's the kind of job you can make the most of it. If you make the most of it, it's remarkable. But then, you know, like I said, you have the slugs. Yeah. who then just, you know, do the minimum. And like I tell you, when I was a boss, I wasn't the guy that you want, you know, if you work for and you were a slug, you know, I had my own way of a version of highway therapy, you know. And, you know, so I would make sure that they would,

you know, they remember that the job's a little bit. Because I love the job so much. I had so much pride in doing the work that if you didn't get along with other agencies, I mean, like, you know, sometimes I would definitely have bombed, you know, other three-letter agencies, certainly behind closed doors. But if you couldn't get along with other agents, and couldn't keep your eye on the mission or if you just thought that, you know,

doing the minimum was okay and then you just write it out to get your, to get your pension, you know, after 25 years or worse, you stay until you're mandatory and, you know, take a spot that, a coveted spot where someone else, you know, who wants to come in and do the right thing,

you know, I make sure that they knew that they were, you know, they should make me move on. But, you know, again, it's the security and the ability to do that job. I mean, where else are you going to go? It's not like if I became a physician. You know, I could go to a million.

There's hospitals all over the world, you know, the world or domestically that I can go to. But if you want to be a special agent and do this kind of work, there's only a few agencies, right? It's a coveted role. And if you're going to be so lucky whether you earned it or not to have that job, you better appreciate it. So, you know, but, you know, it's hard with the federal government, especially with now, you know, now to like, you know, to do anything. if you have these slugs, people don't appreciate it who might be, I'm not going to say dangerous to others,

because if you're stacking up at a door, you know, I know who I wanted up, you know, behind me, tapping on my shoulder, saying, okay, let's do this. But it's really hard to get rid of people. So, you know, sometimes it was super frustrating as they move through the ranks. I was going to ask,

you brought up a really interesting point about the whole corruption thing. You know, in the United States, like the administrations, all of them, and the politicians and everybody, like they have this very naive world view, I think a lot of times. How did you guys navigate?

Like, that these foreign countries, they are not the United States. The president takes money. The police chief takes money from, you know, his subordinates. They take money from their subordinates. They set up illegal checkpoints to get a little box shish because that's how they feed their families, right? Like, you're not going to go in there over, like, a training course

and change the entire. way they've been doing business for 200 years or, you know, a thousand years or whatever. Like, how hard was that for you to navigate when you were working like these international situations? You know, I, you going back to the point of like, you know, you work these cases and you build, you know, you build a case with evidence internationally, with cooperation from, you know, international governments. And whether they want to or not, they provide you evidence to make a case.

And it comes down to whether it's a right time or not. if you have a strong case because some people are just so important to the government, right? It's better to have them as a source of information or an ally or facilitator of things that you want, the Americans want in a certain location, right? So, you know, you have to do that dance with the state department. So it kind of aligns with what you're asking is the sense that I go into these now. Like that was a moment, right? That moment in the Middle East was like, okay, again, it was another like, okay, the shit's real moment. Yeah. Right? And you, but you go in with eyes wide open understanding that this is who you're dealing with.

And, well, are you going to bring, are you going to bring them into the United States and put them on the stand? No. Right. But are you going to then take their information and construct it parallelly, you know, do parallel construction of the evidence to try to, you know, make a case? Sure. Or do you just take the information and walk away from it? You know, the situation, that's what you sometimes do. But it's a dance, you know, and it was, I'm not saying, you know, I didn't walk in there. Of course, I walked in there as an arrogant American, you know, shit. thinking my shit doesn't, you know, like, this is the way we do things. Sure.

Why do you do it this way? But yeah, like to your point, this is a new culture. Look we have. It's only how, you know, like, and we're going back thousands of years and we can't argue with them. So we just have to work with them. Yeah. It was super rare.

I mean, it was super rare. It's only in like the serious national security cases, you know, certainly when it comes to terrorism or definitely with money laundering when it comes to, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, Fala's, different types of, those types of money learned during investigations, but right, you know, to your point, you just, you just, you just tolerate it. You work around. Can you tell us the Argentina story? Oh, yeah, that was.

So here I am, you know, like I said, like I expected to come into this job and kind of just dilly down, you know, you know, I was excited. I was willing to do anything, but, you know, everyone's like, just stayed arms land for a while, just watch and learn. I'm telling you, like, the second, third weekend, we had this, we responded to a case that customs, you know, or intercepted at the airport. And it was, it was, it was heroin inside of jackets and other elements. It was a smuggling ring. So the cool thing is, so here I am, you know, agent. I had my DEA partner and some other agents from customs working this case together. And I was

the case agent along with my partner from the DEA who became a really good friend. And we started working this big network in Argentina. So again, like here we are a couple, you know, maybe six, eight months into this job and we have to go to Argentina, right? And with the Justice Department and with one of the prosecutors to meet with the local leadership, you know, law enforcement leaders at the embassy. So we're like, oh, this is cool. We get to brief them and like, you know, it's terrifying, but, you know, like, I'm going to Argentina. Okay, it was very cool. Buenos Aires is great. So I had several opportunities to go there. But one of the times we went there, I felt like we were walking around, and I felt like, you know, had that spidey sense,

like hopefully that most people have in this industry, in this world. And I'm like, what's going on here? So I said, it turns out to, I talked to my DEA buddy. And I'm like, we were walking together and with the third with from the Justice Department. I'm like, hey, man, listen, I know like, you know, I'm going to sound like I'm watching TV, you know, too many cop shows or like, you know, spy shows. But do you feel like we're being followed? He's like, oh my God, yeah, I feel like the same thing.

I can feel like what's going on. I'm like, I don't know, but like, we should probably tell our bosses at the embassy. So we're like, I mean, do you want, they're going to laugh at us. So like, let's try it. So we go and I go speak with our head and, you know, the representative, the customs are, you know, now the HSI representative at the embassy. I'm like, hey man, listen, you know, crucify me if you think I'm ridiculous. But I feel like we're being followed. He's like, what do you mean?

I'm like, well, it felt like there was like people, you know, we felt the presence following us. And then I remember, I'm like, wait, I was in my, I was on the phone in my hotel and I heard a click on the phone. And perhaps it could have been just static. But, you know, back in the day when, you know, technology wasn't great, you sometimes have that interference when you're wiretapping a phone. And so I'm like, listen, I think I heard a click on my phone. And I feel like when we found out of his like, he's like, motherfucker. And he's just F bomb. He's like, those motherfuck.

So he's going, he goes to the intelligence community at the embassy. So he's yelling. He's like, those bastards are following you. because, you know, back, you know, still to this day, when you're, when you're coming to a country, you know, whether it's a foreign country, coming to the United States or vice versa, you want to know why they're there. And perhaps you have their meeting with people that you could, you know, like that you're cooperating, but they can take and flip themselves. Right. Right. So it wasn't, it wasn't anything like dangerous per se.

They're just trying to figure out, listen, when you come into the country, you have to fill out paperwork and they know who's. So they're just probably curious about what we're doing. you know so I'm like and then I gotta be honest with you like he's telling us like yeah man like he kind of validated us were like yeah like I felt like okay like we're doing something worthwhile that people want to follow us but probably weren't yeah I mean it's one of those things where it's like you could have just asked me where I was going and who I was maybe of course and then um you know so they're like so you know they ran out and yelled at the I see you know intelligence community to figure out from them like hey man it's not us it turned out to be another foreign intelligence service oh wow so yeah so like

all right, so I felt empowered and cool. Like in the next day, we were walking around. And then like, they're like, and we tell the justice, you know, I'm not going to of course name him, but we're out and we're like, like, hey, listen, very important. Do not wear any insignia is. Do you do anything? I'm like, of course not. Let's some people do that.

So we're walking around and we see the, we start taking a walk and I look down at the, the third person from the Justice Department. He's wearing shorts that say, has a DOJ symbol emblem on it. I'm like, oh, man. I'm like, so I'm like getting to, I push him in the bush, the bushes, and I said flip out, you know, flip around your shorts and take those off. So, you know, so that was, that was fun because then we always had that on them. But that was just a remarkable experience. And that's one of those times. You know, you're just like, this shit's real. You know, and, you know, and that's where, you know, it's the trade craft comes in, you know, some of the things you learn. But, you know, we're talking about tradecraft and all those things. It's like, like, again, with being a fed of a special agent, you experience so many different. You experience so many different. things, you know, that you're, you kind of get trained on like as it happens or right before it happens or afterwards, right? So then after all of a sudden, you know, we had some trade calf, you know, training, but it's not, it was pitiful, right? Like I'm not, you know, we weren't spies,

we weren't doing that kind of work. And, you know, so then afterwards we had some, you know, trade craft training, you know, trade craft training and, you know, we learned a lot and, you know, checked behind the doors and, you know, I always carried door stuff around and, you know, all the other things, check the mirrors. And, um, but. But it was just, it was one of those eye-opening experiences. But, you know, just having the opportunity to work internationally and just, you know, learn something new every day. It was just the best.

Let's get into the triathlon training story. Oh, yeah. So, you know, talking about just, you know, whether or not, you know, people are right for the job, you know, one of the times that the time when I felt like, I feel like I hopefully live up to at least the bottom tier of being an investigator. you know, having the right stuff is I was training for a triathlon. I do long distance and other types of endurance sports. And I was at the pool, this is several years ago.

And I was a couple years into the job. It wasn't yet a boss or anything. And I was swimming at an indoor pool and here on Long Island, right? And like I said, I was into a pool and I'm swimming, doing laps and there was a section. And those is a time I was also working child exploitation cases. And not that it wouldn't have been sensitive to someone to, you know, anomalies. I think that's part of like, you know, like being a decent investigator's to see things that, you know, like the unusual. But I was working a lot of child exploitation cases, which just sucks the life out of you, right?

But, you know, as I see children and then, you know, certainly being a parent, I see someone sitting at this side of the pool, an older feller, you know, and seeing, you know, sitting at the pool just watching everything that was going on. I said, okay, that was day one. And then there's a lot of children's, you know, taking lessons. And then day two, I'm doing laps and he happened to be, luckily, in happenstance, kind of sitting in front of my lane. And he's on the chair. And he's wearing bathing suit. And he, I think he had his shirt off. I'm like, okay, indoor pool, you know, and he's reading a book.

And as I pull up, you know, as I swim up to him, I look up and I see he's holding his book upside down. I'm like, okay. You know, that means something to me. So I'm like, okay, I got out the pool, I got dressed. I watched him for a bit, and I saw him doing some unusual maneuvers into the locker rooms, following some of the older kids going into the locker rooms. I'm like, okay, so I go to the front desk. You know, I'm like, hey, man, listen, you know, I'm a law enforcement.

I show my stuff. And I'm like, hey, listen, you tell me a little bit more about this guy. And they gave me all, you know, like, oh, he's a teacher. Okay. And he works at, you know, the Stices. And, yeah, he's kind of weird. And he just had, you know, some problems with him. But, you know, there's not a lot we can do.

I'm like, okay, that's not great. So, you know, we did what we could do. You know, so I'm like, I'm not going to let us go. So we did, you know, we found out where he lived. You know, we did surveillance on him. We did everything these things called trash runs, which is not the most glamorous thing, but it's an incredibly important part of the job

is where people put their garbage out at night at some point. And we learn. And once it's on the curb, it's free game, you know, anybody could look at it. So we then steal his garbage. We did this all the time with other cases. Steel his garbage. Lay it out in a parking lot down the street.

try to find evidence of, you know, credit card bills or try to find, like, where his, his IP address, you know, we could look at his computer, just anything we could do to connect him to some sort of crime. We came up empty. And then just kept watching him. And then I discovered, I also learned that there had been several reports on him, police reports, finding that he was, that he had intimidated children at the locker room at that pool. He tried to, like, he was peeping into someone, kids, into his shower stall. And I'm, like, this is on. I worked so hard on this case and so many other agents work with me day and night. Finally, we're like, all right, we can't find anything. So we, one day, we just knocked on his door.

And you never know. We knocked on his door. I'm like, hey, sort of crazy. Hey, listen, special agents. We think you might have inadvertently downloaded some sensitive national security information on your computer. Can we have a look? Sure. Okay. Signed it away. Guy came in with his big backpack, you know, the computer friends guy, plugged it in. Boop, boop, boop, poop. All these images, child, you know, just horrible, horrible images. So it was a really tough case. But and then he, and I, you know, I interviewed him. He once he was faced with that evidence, he kind of, he confessed.

And then we ultimately got a, you know, an arrest warrant for him and charged him, you know, with possession of child exploitation material. He said, you know, he said that he had never, you know, touched. That wasn't consensual, a young child, you know, boy, but he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, He said he has a preference range. Right. You know, like, it's just, and that's the kind of thing, man. Like, there's a couple things about that type of work.

It's like what you have to see in order to make your cases, the evidence, is the most horrible things you could possibly see. I don't get to your parent or not. I can't even imagine. And what you just said, though, like, to use, like, a modern, like, terms triggers me that he said he never touched, like, like, non-consensual. Yeah, who the fuck says that? Who says that a child can consent?

This is a slippery slow, man. Like going to that child exploitation, because I want to mention it because the people that do child exploitation cases, state, local, federal, I don't care, are, I mean, they are, the fortitude. I can't imagine. Oh, no, it's just, it's another level of, of, of, of, of hero.

Yeah. Right? Like, I just, I don't care what you, that's, it's just, it takes a toll. We have a couple of local heroes that I love to mention, but like, they just do this. for a living and they just it's relentless it's because it's one of the other but the hard thing about it is one you have to look at this material right and you know it's what you were saying it's like you have to

look this material and present it to the grand jury right so you have to describe these things so here you are like I said you're not trained for this ahead of time no you become this right and can you handle but this is the other part then you have to sit down with them and and then you have to interview them and you can't just be like you're awful tell me all about how you're just a goddamn like you're the worst or the worst, I want to put you away forever. You got to be like, hey man, I get it. You love them. You love them. You're treating them with love. Oh, yeah. Like, and they, like, and they like, oh, no, I love him or I love them and I would never hurt them. They just want love. And I'm giving them. And then you have to just, you have to step away from that and just be like,

I can't believe I'm dealing with a monster. And then you have to, then you have to go home at night and look at your kids and like, like, emotionally. I feel like, I feel like, I feel like, I feel like, I feel like I'm not strong. I feel like it would break me. You know, like, I feel, you know, when, like, I first left the government, you know, I was like, I need a new cause. You know, I need to figure something out. And then I remember there were a couple organizations like girls are not for sale and stuff like that.

And I was like, oh, maybe I'll kind of get into that. And then people started telling me about, like, what they do. I'm like, I can't do that. Like, I can't. I don't know that I trust myself to not. You can. No, but you, but that's the, you know, listen, if you have a warrior mentality, right, you're even, you say that, but then once you're confronted with, once you're given the opportunity to do that, to take these monsters off the street, you, you go. Like, you just, and then, but here it is,

how long can you handle, right? There's a reason that there's, you know, they have, every, every agency has periodic psychological evaluation. And there's actually a limit to how long you can do it for because God help you if you become numb to it. Right. And there was a tipping point for, there was a point where I was just like, I wanted so badly to just take them out. Like, judge, jury, an executioner.

But see, that's the thing, the executioner part, because that's what I was worried about. I was worried that, that being exposed to that, that I would not, that I would go over that edge. And of course, you're going to get caught.

Like, everybody thinks they're so smart and they're never going to get caught, like you go on some murder spree, but, you know, I wasn't, but that's the thing is like, you guys have the ability to put them in jail. These civilian groups going after them, they don't have that. And so, I mean, I know they're passing off information law enforcement when they can, but it's got to be very frustrating depending on how law enforcement, local law enforcement a lot of times handles it and stuff like that. Yeah, it's frustrating. It's interesting because, like, you know, it's sometimes really difficult to make a case, right? It's, if it's, you know,

And then, you know, and then there's a very few people to do it. But the problem is the real scary thing. There's so much of it. There's not enough people to work it. Right, right. Right. And we, there is, and this is, and there's few things in federal law enforcement, in law enforcement in general, we all bring people together.

Everything, there's so much, you know, interagency arguing and in fighting and just, I mean, sometimes could lead to fist fights just over cases. I've never seen a case where child exploitation, whether it's exploitation of children in person or when it comes to like that, where there's, you don't work together. Like the U.S. attorney or the bosses never have to like,

you know, like, sit down. Right, right. Everybody called that. Yeah. So let's just do this. You be the affiant. I don't care. Let's just go.

But it's interesting. But like, you know, you think of every, it's almost you become like, you know, I knew like there's a point where you become. reasonable in a way about it. For example, there's certain, when you have these conversations with these people, they don't see what they're doing is wrong. Right. But then there's certain, there's others that see 100%. They've been accused of it. They've gone to jail for it. They know what they're doing is wrong. Right. They should have just walked off into the, you know, somewhere and just

live in isolation for the rest of the lives. Those are the ones that, I mean, God help you. I'm, we're not stopping until we get you. I, there was one, was one someone I arrested and he was a, I think he might as an administrator or a principal teacher at a school. Right. We filed the lead. We ultimately did a search warrant in his home and arrested him. If you, if I met him outside of his house going to do a warrant and find, you know, for child exploitation, he was a pretty cool guy. And hear me out.

Like, it's bizarre and I hate to say it. And he said to me, we started to, and he said, okay, I do this. He said, I've never touched a child. child, I will never touch a child. I have a demon inside me. And I control it. And I said, I'm glad you, he said, I'm glad you caught me. Like yesterday, I'm glad you caught me. And when I get out, if I get out, I'm going to move somewhere where I'll never be a problem. Yeah. I'll never be. I, you know, and, and he was like, he sat down and you talked to him. It's almost like, this person had this, he just couldn't, couldn't shake it. It was, it was, it was, it was a demon inside

him. Yeah. And it's hard to, like, digest that. And so, like, you know, I didn't feel sympathy, but it was like for a second, I'm like, I had to shake my head. I'm like, whoa, calm down. Like, he's a monster. And it's. I didn't know that the DHS was so involved with this until an episode of Darkneck Diaries where they talked about to a agent, DHS agents who stumbled on it through other traffic or money traffic or money laundering, I think. Yeah, please go ahead. So this goes back to the days how we, you know, we mentioned customers. service, right? Yeah. So back in the day, you know, all this, most of this material came

internationally. How did it come? He came through the mail, through international's mail sorting facilities by tapes or magazines. So that's, you know, so it has been a border crime. So ever since I joined the custom service since its inception, it's always been one of the program areas. Because it's international. So you have the smuggling. So if you think of it, so now let's let's let's fast forward. It was just, you know, 20, 10, 15 years ago when the internet took over. And you have this peer to peer and everything's facilitated. Most of it's international. The servers are overseas.

Everything's interstate, right, by the nature of it. So that brings in the federal, you could do interstate or you could do international. So that's how, you know, HHSI, Homeland Security Investigations kept the hand on it because of that international nexus. Interesting. So you also have, not only do you have child exploitation material and people that, you know, that actually, but you also have people that travel internationally. Right. Right?

To South Central America, to Asia, right? To these horrible, you mean, it's brutal. There's actually travel services that cater. Right. There's a tourist industry for this. It's a tourist industry. It is, and it's, right? And you, like you were saying before,

you're asking about how do you collaborate with these international, you know, these officials? Like, it's in plain sight. It's right in front of them. What are they doing about it? Nothing because there's so much money for them to be made. Instead of making $10 an hour, they're making hundreds, you know. And it's not like it's just, it's right in plain sight and there's, to your point,

it's tourism, it's commerce. So they're not going to do, they're not going to prevent it. So it's, yeah. Can I ask your take on, because you know, you've talked about like the money that there's always money in it. But now like with the DOJ's latest announcement, now we're seeing organizations like 764 that are just these nihilistic organizations that are, you know, like, not necessarily trafficking, but exploiting,

exploiting kids and stuff like that. Like, like, and I don't know, like, I don't know what the theories are or whatever, if they're being funded by other people or whatever. Like, how do you deal with these organizations that maybe money isn't the goal, but just mayhem? Right. And that's the, that's really the, but that's like, you know,

like we're talking about, I mentioned before, like MS-13 and Treg, like, right. You talk about organizations that are just, just out there to serve, you know, evil. Right. Right. So like, right.

So like you talk about MS-13. For example, like they're not out there killing it. You know, they're not driving out in Lambeaus. They're not living in high life. Right. They're, you know, day laborers by day and then, you know, macheting at night. And, you know, so those are really difficult.

That's a really difficult not to crack because then it's really difficult to flip. It's very difficult to tap. But, you know, it's just the power. There's a, you know, when it comes to this, I'm just going to transition to, like, the gang warfare. Right? Like now, like the new administration is using the tools that in, you know, previous administrations like times, like I've just given the tools the immigration authorities, right? So then you just, you've got to counter it. Right. Right. You're going to play a little dirty. They play dirty. You got

to just play a little bit dirty too within the confines of the law. Right. So if you're going to use immigration authority to deport, you know, to get, you know, to detain them and then deport them based on the variables and have legal deportation orders to get rid of them, then that's the game we have to play if we cannot make that case like you're saying right right so you have to look past the criminal you know the pursuit of criminal cases because it's very very difficult especially when there's no trail right if you can't get the rico on them or or the money laundering or whatever and you can't catch hearing right perhaps maybe if they get greedy a lot of sometimes they get a little ambitious and they they want to start you know getting involved in drugs but you know getting back to the old days of

you know organized crime like you know the italian and this and that there's like don't touch drugs yeah don't trust you know but then once you do, then it's a slippery slope because then you have RICO and then you have all these other charges. And narcotics, you know, smuggling charges or possession or distribution is a massive charge compared to some other things. And then you've got, you know, and then again, if you can sell things, if you're going to sell bad things or you're going to provide bad services, you're going to make money and then you're

going to have to launder it to some degree. And that's, that's a really big hammer. Right. So like, yeah, but that's what I mean. It's being creative and it's working with the U.S. Attorney's Office and, you know, And it's why these cases take years. Like people are like, why is, you know, like, how is it, how are you proud that the case took five years? Because that's how long the case take, you know, it's not an instant case.

It's not an hour episode of a show. Right, right. It's not a tour. Right. And that's where, like I said, like, the job gets very complicated and very difficult. And, you know, this, and that's why it's, you know, it's different than some other jobs that perhaps people that are thinking about going to law enforcement. You know, if you do detective work, of course you work long-term cases and you can collaborate with federal or you can work. where you can work great cases on your own.

But for the most part, it's the instant cases. You're responding to something that happened. And then, you know, and then all the differences, and you get a great perspective in this job is because, unlike within local law enforcement or state, when you're a federal agent, you get to see your, you know, you don't take, like in law and order. I'm going to use law and order.

But, you know, you get the case. They make the case, they hand it over to the ADA. And then you don't see the detective again. Perhaps maybe to testify, right? couple hours. When you're an agent, you stick with the case. You interview the witnesses. You pick the jury, right? Like you sit there, you have the little post-it notes and you're like picking out the jury. I'm pretending like I'm, you know, and actually know what I'm doing. But like, you know, I'm making posted notes and no pining on things. But it's a different, it's a different world.

So you get to see it early, if you like the opportunities I had as a new agent working all these cases and making going to trial, I got to see how the whole system works and what sticks. Because as a new age, and you're like, you think just a little bit of evidence is good enough. No, there's different level. You need probable cause to make cases. And to your point, it's like, it takes a lot. So I got to, you know, you get visibility into that world. You become a better investigator.

But it's also frustrating because you know how difficult it is to make these cases. Right. Right. So on that note, you know, you also worked on some federal human trafficking cases too. Yeah. Could you tell us about those and kind of the reality of what human trafficking is versus the fantasy, the mythology. Yeah.

So it's important. There's a distinction. So there's two ways of humans that, you know, are brought into and out of the United States. But I mean, it's globally. So don't forget, like, we talk a lot about what, how people are smuggled and trafficked into the United States. But I want to put this out there that it's an international problem. The most horrible things, in my opinion, happen in Asia and Europe when the traffic

people, you know, not smugglers. So I'll explain the difference. So you have human smuggling, which is essentially a paid service to move you, you voluntarily. asking to come into like another country. Like refugees and things like that. Well, yeah, exactly. Refugees were just really bad people who just want to get in

without presenting credit, you know, their passport. But then you also have traffic people who are a couple of ways that could happen. It could be your detain, you're stolen, and then you're put in a container. And this is not a joke. You put in a container on a ship or over the border, the southwest border,

and I'll just, again, to talk particularly about the United States. And you smuggled into the, your trafficked into the country to do a, particularly, provide a service under force. Or you could be trafficked in the sense that you could be, you know, aspiring model or an actress in East and Europe. Yeah, yeah.

Right? And this is, we saw this all the time and still do. Hey, you know, become, you can, you know, come join us. You'll, you'll work in Miami as a, as a bartender or work at a club and you'll make a class of money or an actress and model. Nope. You get here and then they take your passport and they throw you into a room and then you're indenture. and then you're like you're stuck and then they'll threaten you it's usually organized crime in

your home country and they'll threaten your family right so i've seen a couple i mean that's so you know and then you see children that are trafficked um and i'm sure both of your you know your blood's gonna boil when i say it it's like you're trafficked in and out of the country for you know for for sexual services yeah for adults it's just it's remarkable but it's it's it's real it's it's real and it's trafficked in and out of the border. So I had a few experiences being, like I said, being a Homeland Security Investigation's agent and a customs agent,

you saw human trafficking and smuggling as part of your job. So we worked networks. And most, you know, the most important experience I had with that was, you know, I had work cases in human smuggling, you know, enough. On the periphery, you know, like I helped out. I knew enough about it. And then I'm not going to say in typical government fashion,

they're like, hey, listen, you need to go to the department you know and become the director of intelligence for the human smuggling cell right so like it was my first experience in working in intelligence right so I was assigned to the intelligence service of the department but the same time I was the you know the tip of the spear on human smuggling networks you know behalf of the United States so I'm like okay you know so also I had to become the subject matter expert and I remember you know the first I just arrived in a typical government like hey, just fill things out, just, you know, get to know, like, what's going on, the networks and and just ensure the program's running right and get to meet all your international partners.

I remember there's a day I'd like, hey, you need to go to this embassy, and you're going to speak on behalf of the department, and it shouldn't be a big deal. I'm like, okay, you know, I've done this before, no big deal when it comes to the other thing, you know, money laundering and narcotics. And I walk into this embassy and they're like, oh, Mr. Rosenblatt. I'm like, yeah. Like, you're, you know, like, welcome. I'm like, okay, so I sit, of course I backbench it because I'm not sitting at the main table, right?

and I sit backbench and they're like, no, no, no, like, Mr. Ward, you're at the main table. So now I'm sitting next to all these subject matter experts from the State Department internationally, and I'm the head of, you know, human smuggling intelligence for the department. So, you know, fortunately through, you know, my experience as an agent, I worked enough cases

that I had something to offer. So that was great because I was just counting the minutes. I don't know if you've had those experiences we look at the clock, like TikTok, like just, you know, get this over with and hope they don't call on me. It was like a law student. But they called them me. And I had an answer, and thankfully they didn't call on me again because I think I used my one shot.

But, you know, so that was an incredible experience. So part of the role was to be part of the intelligence service, monitoring the transnational criminal organizations, trafficking, well, smuggling, sorry, smuggling undesirables from the Middle East through South America, through Central America, and through Mexico, and through the U.S. border. you know, we talk a lot about human smuggling and trafficking and, you know, how to handle it. And like, you know, it's, it's one of those moments that you realize, like, it's one of those moments again, like, wow, shit's real. Because not only do you have people that are just incredibly undesirable who will pay a ton of money or use these networks, you know, to smuggle them there, you know, to get through, you know, through the Brazil, get through the Dary and through, you know, the jungle. Yeah. get smuggled on boat like it's plane trains, automobiles. And some of them are treated.

It's like a VIP package. And then there's try to attempt to smuggle through the United States. And fortunately, more times than ever, you know, like they were stopped or the intelligence provided enough information ahead of their arrival in the United States that we're able to otherwise intercept them. But it makes you realize like, this is part of the job, right? You have this duty to enforce the laws of smuggling laws and, you know, people that have come into the country illegally.

And you want to get rid of the worst. or just bad. Like, doesn't have to be the worst. But then you see what these people firsthand, with my own eyes, see what these people go through, getting through the Darien, like these terrible terrain that's on, I don't want my kids walking barefoot at the pool. Yeah.

But these kids are like on their backs, like going through the jungle and doing all these terrible things to get, you know, and through, you know, to the United States. So it's that balance, you know, like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. And isn't it supposed to be like one of the most dangerous or hostile sort of like areas in the,

the world in terms like making that trek? It's that. And then, oh, so if you get through the Darien, congratulations. Now you got to deal with the Mexican cartels. Right. And the plastic bosses who want to then smuggle you through the United States. Right. And to the United States.

And then, okay, well, you know, if you give them $5,000, will $5,000 be good enough? Will they hold you hosties? Like, HSI sees this a lot at the border. Like you have these, you know, these, they'll move them over the border or they keep them in Mexico, but they'll move them across the border and then hold them in houses and then call their families wherever and say demand more money. Right. And then it's just, you know, what do you do?

Right. And then it creates a dangerous situation for everybody. So it's like, you know, it's just a horrible real life experience that seems to be, you know, like you're America. Like, you know, you experience this and you think it's somewhere else. Right. It happens here. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I remember, I think recently reading some statistics that said that like estimates are like 40 million people enslaved around the world right now. Yeah. It's insane, right? Oh, because there's so much money to be made. Yeah. And again, like, well, let's, you know, I'll transition a bit to the cartels, like the Mexican cartels, right?

For generations, right? And the Colombians, but, you know, let's talk about the Mexican cartels. You know, it's been heroin and, well, heroin, right? And for the most part. And some bit of marijuana coming, you know, you have to smuggle that stuff through the border, right? And it's expensive and it, you know, and it's bulky. And then, you know, you transition now into this, you know, to fentanyl. Yeah.

Like, okay, now you have a couple kilos. Like, you know, you could just put it in the back of a, you know, 18 wheel. You could put in the cab. You can put it on someone's back or whatever it might be. And it's just, you know, it's, there's more money to be made than ever. Right. So you compact, you have a big palette full of drugs. And instead, you could just do the size of a laptop or whatever and make the equivalent.

Right. So that's where the money goes. So now you have, it's just, you know, so it's just. And now with the, you know, and now with, you know, certain things like, you know, cryptocurrency, you know, which is a remarkable thing. It's, you know, it's really terrific in the sense that it's going to bring the world together as far as, like, settlements and paying for services internationally and help the unbanked. But also, like anything, it's a vulnerability because, like you said, you have to launder the money.

But just like any, you know, whether it's real estate or banking, traditional banking or whatever it is, it's a vulnerability and it's just a new problem to address. So, you know, it's a new generation. It's a new world right now. And I'm sad I'm not an agent anymore to deal with this, but at the same time, I'm like, oof. Yeah. You know?

But at the same time, it brings, what's going to be required is the international community has to come together, unlike ever before, where you can't work these cases. Like you asked me earlier about working internationally. It's like, you know, sometimes you have a case that affects the United States and then you go meet with your international, you know, counterparts, and you try to work a case together, whether it's over there or here. Now with the new generation of money movement, a new generation of money movement, a new generation of drug trafficking and human trafficking and smuggling with these sophisticated international organizations

more than ever, I think that the international law enforcement community, the only way to address it is to come together more than ever. So hopefully that landscape changes. And somewhere around this time, you also kind of got sucked into a special operations command project. So, okay, so part of that experience was, you know, I had to work. and I didn't have to work. I had the privilege of working at Special Operations Command, you know, to work with those fellas. And I was there for a couple weeks and, you know, working on some intelligence briefings. And it was just, what an experience. I never thought. It was one of those moments I'm like, why are they listening to me? Like, I can't believe people are listening to me. Like, you know, it was just a really, just a humbling experience. And it was just the best. But the highlight of it, the absolute highlight was that, you know, for a few weeks I was working with, you know, at Special Opherson. And a lot of it's, you know, they're comprised and composed of, you know, operators who are like maybe post-retirement or just not in the field anymore, you know, special ops, especially the SEALs and otherwise Rangers. And I'd been working with them on these cases, you know, and these intelligence briefings. And one day, there's just the greatest thing happened to me. It was just the greatest thing anybody could say to me.

They were like, hey, man, so where'd you work out of? Where'd you come out of? Meaning, like, they thought I was an operator and the military operator. Not really. And then I'm just some like, shiny guy, you know, like, you know, like, you know. I'm just a guy who went to, you know, Federal Law enforcement training and did a couple of years as an agent, you know, went home at night, you know, and with maybe some bad stories, but, you know, nothing compared to what they experienced. So the absolute, the biggest honor I had in my life and the greatest experience was that moment when he's like, hey, man, he's just assumed. He thought that I was an operator at some point. And I just felt like walking away out of there and just running and be like, you can't take it back. But, you know, it also, it's one of those moments. It's like, again, like, shit's real. Like, you realize if you hadn't already, like, I work in Federal Law & Air Force.

certainly attracts a lot of former, you know, retired, you know, military, certainly a lot of military in whatever capacity. And like, you know, and a lot of them, of course, is so humble. Like they don't talk about what they did before. But just to, you know, have the opportunity to work with, like, you realize, like, you know, what else is out there? And if you ever think that your job is scary and unpredictable, you know, and you think, oh, poor you're doing 20 years of, you know, what the type of work you

do. There's always someone that's smarter and faster and richer, right? And when you meet, when you meet some of the military people, all the military people, in fact, that I'd worked with, especially at Socom, it was just, it was just one of the best experiences in my life. I'm so grateful for it. Can you say why they pulled you in? Like, what was the point of having a DHS guy there? Yeah. So, like, again, you know, my experience, you know, working, being an intelligence program, running that intelligence program for the department, you know, I had a perspective on these transnational criminal organizations, right? So, like, where I was able, Like we talked about like what you can do overtly in the criminal.

Like the idea of federal law enforcement is to put people in jail, right? We don't conduct renditions. We don't do this. We don't do that. We shouldn't. But we don't. And, you know, so ultimately it's collecting evidence and building a case internationally. So that's what my job was.

So while the military and so common room whoever, their role was different, right? My perspective was this is what I'm seeing as transnational criminal organizations operating internationally and this is how I think we should go about it and you tell me so we all got in a room and said like how do we do this right so it was a really healthy perspective and you know so uh you know how can we collaborate too right because it's different internationally than it is domestically um you have a little bit more leeway so it was just so that was the experience i had so you know so the idea was to walk out of there and it's different because then it was under military rules right like i couldn't just be like eh you know what do you do about it's like

you're getting this done, you know, guys, and like, you can't leave this room men and women until you get this job done. And it was like, yeah, sir, yes, sir. And, you know, and that's why I was there for a few weeks doing that kind of work. So, but again, it was one of those experiences that we're talking about, like, you can make this job everything, you can make it nothing. Like, I walked out of there, a better investigator, a better international investigator. And certainly, you know, like, every day's humbling, you know, when you get to work with other people. But that was just, you know, that brought me home. And that, I think it certainly showed me a lot of leadership skills, because then from there, I became the natural progression.

I was always, I love working, being an investigator. I always thought like, all right, I want to be a special agent. Like, you know, I compare it if you become a teacher, you want to teach, right? You come in there because you want to teach. Then you become a principal. You become an administrator. You're not a teacher anymore. So what are you?

Is that where you want to be? Not everyone should lead. Not everyone who comes to the job should not be, you know, should move into leadership because they just, their passions to outweighs their motivation to lead. You know, but I always thought I was just going to be, you know, what we call in the business, the Terminal 13, a GS-13, which is the highest rank level you could go to before you become supervisor. And I thought that was it for me because I just loved it so much.

But then you're like, and you know, you appreciate this. It's like, you don't want to work for that asshole, right? So instead of like that person you're promoted, like, all right, I'll do it. I'll try for it. And then, you know, and God knows, like it never ends in government, you know. Like, it's just the suits get, you know, the ties get, you know, more expensive. And, you know, so it just took me through the ranks in leadership. And that was just one of the most important experiences I had in leadership because it just showed me how important it is to, you know,

collaboration and just getting things right and just in listening mostly in learning. Can you tell us about how you got involved in the El Chapo investigation? Yeah. So I was, you know, I definitely never had hands on. I never did, you know, but part of the Alchapo investigation, when he was brought into the United States, it was run, you know, it was a,

this was like the perfect government collaboration. It was, you know, FBI, it was HSI, DEA, it was, I mean, it was just everybody working together, you know, over 10-year period, you know, to take down this organization. And when Chappo was finally brought into the United States, and this is, you know, we were talking about money laundering before, the power of money laundering,

he was brought in with primary charges of money laundering, right? So, I mean, he had a lot of other charges, but part of it. So the El Dorado Task Force and working with DA and FBI and then when PD, in a lot of areas were responsible for the prostitution of Alchapo. So at the time, I was, you know, I was running that, the Eldorado task force and proportion of it because it went on for a long time. So it was just a great experience to watch that trial in person and see all the hard work that the interagency did, you know, the government's task force did to make that

It was just, you know, it was just a great, it was a long time coming, you know, and it was just having that opportunity to be part of that and to lead that program and that prosecution, you know, that team was pretty great. I mean, what were some of your other perceptions about like, kind of like procedural leave and like how that works from, I believe there's the Mexican Marines that caught him to his extradition to the United States and sort of, and sort of the federal law enforcement. role in walking him up into that prosecution. Yeah.

I mean, so this is where we were talking before about like it's international relations. It's politics, right? I think the date was January 19th of 2016 that Chappo was brought in. I think the inauguration of Donald Trump was on the 20th. So, you know, I don't know if it was a coincidence. But they had him for a long time, you know, being held in Mexico, and I think that it helped facilitate that, you know, that movement to the United States to make that happen. But, you know, that's where a lot of, you know, and again, like,

being, you know, in this job, you see a lot of the politics, right? Because if you're working international cases, it's not cut and dry. So you see how much is, how important the State Department is, how important the other, or, you know, how the State Department could perhaps, you know, stop a case and tracks, but, you know, or the intelligence communities. There's, there's so much, there's so much that you don't see, right? It's privileged information. So you kind of have to trust, you know, the other side of the government, you know, the non-law enforcement folks who care about the politics and intelligence, the value of certain intelligence relationships to opine, you know, to like be part of that decision of whether, like, for example, like El Chappo comes into

the country and when he does, right? So you know, like, you know, like, you saw that he was, and then like, you know, the Special Operations Division of DEA, which is, you know, another great international interagency organization, you know, with HSI, DEA, and FBI and several other agencies to work phones and do other things. They did a remarkable job chasing him, you know, through and tracking him throughout Mexico and ultimately led to his arrest. But, you know, like we see today with the conversations with the current administration and the Mexican president, you know, Mexico doesn't, you know, there's certainly, there's a very strong

American presence in Mexico, certainly, you know, it's just like a lot of countries, but there's just so much you can do let you do. Because then if you cross that line once, you know, there's a lot of, there's, you know, once you're going to, they might expel you from the, from the country as an individual or as a, as a, as a agency. So you got to be really careful. So, you know, so you kind of have to, you have to just, you know, play the politics. And this is where that, that comes in play. And it's frustrating. I'm sure there's a lot of bosses behind the scene that we're looking at, you know, knowing El Chapo was in custody somewhere and just, you know, like as you can escape again and probably cursed and cursed and cursed and cursing had

really serious behind the scenes conversations with the State Department, etc. But, you know, it happened when it happened in politics play a big role in international law enforcement. I guess one of the other topics I want to talk to you about, I guess this is sort of like atmospherics, but you had mentioned to me, you know, before we did the interview, talking a little bit about the sort of current morale in the Department of Homeland Security. Those guys, as you mentioned, they have to deal with politics, domestic politics, international politics, whether they like it or not. It's a part of the job. What's your sense of the feelings inside the organization today? It's a rough patch right now. I mean, I went through this, you know,

it edges and flows. This is not the first time that the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, agency or the department has been prioritizing, you know, immigration enforcement. I mean, that's what they, you know, that's what the Department of Homeland Security is responsible for, right? I think where the problem, not the problem, because, you know, this is where, again, like, almost bleeding into the idea of like, you know, if you're working big cases, international cases, or if you're a boss and you're working internationally, there's international politics. With federal law enforcement, I think, I'm going to say unlike other law enforcement type of law enforcement, you're at, you know, you're working on behalf of the administration's priorities.

Right. So if the administration, and I'm not saying what they're, you know, the prioritizing, getting rid of the worst and good, you know, pretty bad. And everybody is a bad thing. It's terrific, in my opinion. But what, what's happening now, whether it's good and bad for the agents is that you have a whole government, right? Like, so we, you have the FBI, you have DEA, ATF. I mean, his name of all, secret service. I haven't saw postal inspectors in IRS, you know, know, agents out on immigration operations under the banner of like ICE operations. So you have like Homeland Security investigations and other agencies conducting these operations. So yes, it's incredibly important to get, you know, and there was a promise made and it's important to get, you know,

these these felons out. I love it. But at the same time, is it at what expense, like where is it from a morale perspective, you have people that are doing other important cases. We're talking about all the things we discussed today. Then you have, you know, FBI working some national security cases and, you know, an ATF working drugging gun cases outside of, you know, the targeting illegal gangbangers and etc. It's very difficult for them to accept the idea of like, okay, well, I'm going to be taking off of this.

And for the next few weeks, I'm going after administrative arrests. Because at the end of the day, they're administrative, right? And they're not criminal. So, you know, and it's frustrating for everybody. It's frustrating for the U.S. Attorney's Office because they're also. and all their agents are not able to fill their, you know, to write the reports and, you know, find more evidence and go to the grand jury. You know, so it's super frustrating because then, you know, with every new administration,

even if it's a repeat administration, you have new people coming in who don't understand the culture. Some of the culture is certainly broken. I think, like, but it's government, it's federal government. I love the fact that they're weeding out, you know, there's an opportunity to perhaps get rid of people that feel like they're tenured or, you know, that's the thing with government. especially with special agents when it's such a coveted job you have people that you if they get on you can't get rid of them unless they do something really really bad so you own them for the next 20 play of year so it's very difficult so the people that really want to work cases you know for the next

months you know a few months at least they're going to be they're going to have to do these administrative arrests and I know you know having done it before on my own you know while it's an important mission it is frustrating because you're so used to doing these criminal cases and it's like someone telling you that what you're doing is not important important. You know, and then also all the talk about certain agencies being perhaps absorbed or broken up, you know, it's, it's frustrating because it's like I said, it's a new administration who might not understand why things certainly, you know, the way they are, why is an ATF, why there's an agent, Homeland Security Vest, why there's other DEA and not, you know, they're in they have, they do one thing and they do it well, you know, hopefully over time they'll see the value of keeping these agencies whole and then let them return to their primary mission. because, you know, we know that for the next four years, immigration enforcement could go on. Like, it's a, you know, it's a bottomless pet, especially if they start, they exhaust all the priorities and lead to other, you know, their other, you know, next to a third tier or lower tier priorities of just expelling people that are just otherwise unlawfully present in the United States. I think I saw a statistic that was like it could take 55 years at the pace. Like, it's not a four-year goal.

No, it's, it's, it's not, it's not possible. Yeah. You know, I can speaking from experience, like, first of all, with administrative warrants, you know, I'm not going to get into the weeds in this because it's kind of boring, but like with administrative warrant, it's not like a criminal warrant where it's like, okay, judge signs is it between 6 and 10, 6 a.m. and 10 p.m., you could execute a search warrant. Anytime you could, you could, you could execute an arrest warrant. So if you see bad guy running into a house and they close the door behind him, you just

that door and follow them through, right? Like on every TV show. With administrative warrant, you can't, you don't have that ability. It's super dangerous. Yeah. So you can just stand out, you can stand outside and you have to wait for them to appear. Right.

And if they went into a house, so it's really, and if you're chasing after the worst or the worst, think about, like, I used to worry every day, like one of the worst parts of being a boss and the most stressful is on those warrants worrying about what they're doing. Like, oh, like, you know, are they safe or something going to happen?

And I couldn't wait to that call at 6.10 a.m. after the 6 o'clock hit to make sure everyone's okay. So thank you, you know, because of what's going on, a lot of these agents and officers with ICE have to go into these, you know, almost do these dangerous search warrants, you know, these risk warrants every day at a disadvantage. Right. So it's, it's, and then you have the communities

that are like ganging up on them and following them around with cameras and saying you're evil. I've been subject to that. I mean, I'll just bring up, just because it's aligned with this. During the uprising, the civil unrest, rather, New York City back in, you know, I think it was, you know, 2020, 21, 22. You know, we, the Homeland Security investigation and the other agencies helped NYPD, help them, you know, secure their precincts to help secure certain areas of the city.

And there was a time when I was just sitting out there. We were wearing our jackets or vests and we're just my own business. And I remember specifically, it was FBI, DEA, and ATF and Nature's Eye. And we're just walking, someone comes up to us. And there's a police barrier just because we're just standing in the middle of the street, you know, securing in the nation. And someone comes up to us, this, you know, this woman who could have been like my sister. And she comes up to it. She starts cursing at us. You guys are scum. You guys are who the hell?

I'm like, what? And then, you know, immediately I wanted to bring up this video that I always loved where there was this, you know, I forgot some sort of civil arrest in maybe Seattle. And there's this video of them chanting. You know, after police, after police, and they're screaming and screaming. And then someone in the video, someone sees someone with a gun. And then one of the people chanting changed their chance. she says, call the police, call the police. Yeah. And it was just like, I'm looking at her, I'm like, I so badly want to be like, what your brainwise?

Like, what's wrong with you? What's going on? Yeah. And I'm like, we're here to help. Like, if you knew me and you knew, like, I'm just this dad. And like, all these people I work with are just there to do the job. Right. I don't know anybody in my job and my experience who wants a harm, right?

Right. And then to have someone come up to you otherwise would have done anything for in the moment. Yeah. You would have jumped on them, you know, to protect them, shield them, from anything coming up and telling you that you're disgusting your scum. And that's what, that's what, so now you have these, you know, you have these agents from other agencies,

like, you know, like whatever, who are then also on these ops that they're forced to do. Well, like I said, it's worthwhile, then they're being treated as like evil, you know? They're like being told that they're scum and that they're not worth the job. And like, how do you go back and how do you go home at night and feel good about what you've been doing?

Right. And especially when it's a bottomless pit, like you said. Yeah. And it's just, it's really hard. It's, it's just, I've been there before, but not to this extent. It's, it's, it's different. Can you tell us about, you know, you've kind of, you're retired? I mean, maybe you want to tell us a little bit about retirement out of DHS, but sort of like

where you are today and some of the things we're working on now. Yeah. So, you know, I retired a few years ago. It was just, it was a really difficult move, but I think it was, you know, it was enough. and then I knew that I wanted to get out and work in the financial crimes world. So I've moved, I work for a terrific company. I work in the financial technology sector doing anti-money laundering. And I'm able to work global law enforcement to try to protect and educate on the blockchain and cryptocurrency.

So it's pretty wonderful I get to do. You know, I get to see what I, you know, take what I've learned all those years and apply it to protecting, you know, the new generation of money movement. but also because I just can't leave well enough alone, you know, I had this idea several years ago for a TV show. I don't watch, and I think a lot of people, you know, in military and police and ever, you watch these shows, you're like, I'm the most annoying person to watch these shows with. I'm sure you guys are too.

Like, yeah, I can watch these police shows. I'm like, pause, pause, pause, pause, pause. And I go through all the reason why everything is so stupid, right? And so I'm like, you know what? Like, I want to write a show. I wish it was a show about one. that tell stories that aren't ripped from the headlines or made up because there's so many things that I've seen in my career and others like me have seen that you don't hear about because

it becomes it's just normal everyday things but it's stuff that's like in plain sight close to home and it's just remarkable stories but I also really wanted to tell the story because when you watch these shows you watch these shows and like either the agents or the analysts or the agent you know the detectives are like either superheroes or they're broken right they're going home and crying and then the next day they go show up for work or they're just, you know, unstoppable. And like the whole point of it is like if you, you know, we're just normal people doing this job, right? Like half of us don't even know what you got into until it's too late. And then you just or you just, or you just, I don't know what you do. But so what I did was I,

you know, I had a friend who was in the industry, which was wonderful, a bit of mentor who I told him the story. He's like, hey, that's great. But no one's going to give a crap what you think. You got to put it in writing. So I'm like, okay, he's like, you need to write a pilot. I'm like, yeah, right. I've always enjoyed writing, but I never pursued it in that way. And then I said, okay, challenge accepted. And about a year and a half ago, I sat down, I studied, I learned about character development in arcs, and I learned, you know, software and writing software. And I just spent about a month and just wrote, I wrote a TV pilot. And, you know, fortunately, I've been working with some, you know, terrific people, you know, to develop it. So I was picked up by a management

company and then we were able to um we filmed a short film based on my pilot um which you know has served several purposes so hopefully you know we could get it out there um in the world it's called harm's way and uh it's it's just it's true stories about everyday life of special agents there's two stories about like like i said that principal who you never suspect or the teacher you never suspect of, you know, of being pedophiles or, you know, or drug traffickers or, you know, terrorists that live next door, you would terrorists in Brooklyn, things that I know are true and that you, that you haven't heard about.

So, you know, hopefully this is going to be, the story's going to be told. Hopefully, you know, it'll turn into a TV series. But right now we have a wonderful short film called Harm's Way. That's amazing. Yeah, please let us know how that goes. We want to plug it when, you know, yeah. I appreciate it. I mean, I'd love to, if you don't mind, I could say, like, you know, you could follow it on Instagram at a harm's way film.

Yeah. Cool. Is it available to watch now? It's short, there's a teaser out there right now. Okay. And then it should be available soon, but, you know, we have a lot of. Harm's way film. We'll put it in the lungs.

Yeah, it's a harm's way film. You know, if you don't mind if I ask you, so, and, you know, I don't know how much you can talk about this, but you just said terrorists in Brooklyn and stuff like that. You know, especially with sort of those. the border crisis we had over the last four years and whatnot. Like, what do you take as a realistic assessment of, not just like TDA or people like that, but of like larger threats or... Like political terrorist or ideological, like, religious terrorist.

Listen, I know for certain that, you know, there's been a lot of, you know, like, it's just fact. like people are smuggled into the country or remain in the country that are, you know, operators on behalf of, you know, it could be Taliban. It could be, you know, other terrorist organizations. They make their way into the United States, whether they're sleeping or where they wanted to change their life and escape into the United States. But at the same time, like behind them are people that will not be happy that they're defectors

and that might come follow them. I mean, for example, I'll just, you know, parallelly talk about, you know, the Chinese, you know, the government has, you know, you've read in the news, They had these secret police stations operating in New York. Right? So what's their job? It's to track down, you know, expats and defectors and do whatever they might want to do with them, rendition them, you know, secretly or just get them back.

So I think the probability is really high that there's similar organizations operating in the U.S., you know, and whether or not their plan, just like in any intelligence organization, right? Like as they get bigger and emboldened and funded. you know, part of their job is to, is to, you know, operate internationally as, as intelligent and intelligence or operators. And it's something that we, I'm sure we're going to have to face again very soon. I mean, God forbid, you know, police, you know, law enforcement, especially New York, NYPD, and the international community and federal, you know, task forces are doing an incredible job of intercepting this information and hopefully in stopping before something happens.

But, you know, there will be a day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you only have to get lucky once, right? It's, yeah, it's scary. And that's what I'm talking about. I'm not even talking about, like, it's hidden in plain sight. It's just, you know, it's scary than people, what are you want to understand?

Right. And I think, I don't know if it was NYPD or federal, but, like, they have stopped a couple of assassinations here around New York. The Iranians. The Iranians and stuff like that. Or bombing temples and, you know, right? It's just, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's opportunity. And it's just, you know, like I said, like, your point, like, NYPD is working, works with federal. I mean, NYPD has, has detectives located, you know, they have them at, you know, around the world.

Yeah. Detectives and intelligence folks from NYPD, like, located around the world to collect this intelligence and disseminate it. So it's just like I said, like in the same way that we're trying, you know, I think in the international community needs to come together better to combat money laundering and other transnational criminal organizations. to solve this problem, well, to mitigate this problem or prevent it or do whatever you can is, you know, the international community has to, you know, collaborate. And unfortunately, what I saw it at 9-11 is that, like, you have a window of opportunity after something. The government responds to terrible things. Yes.

Right? People accept, I'm not going to say violence, but aggressive government activity. For example, what happened after 9-11, right. be walking around the streets with an MP5 hanging around my neck. And it was cool because they're like, okay, we need to protect me, please. But that opportunity fades very quickly. Sure. And I think, unfortunately, you know.

We got you. Okay. Yeah. We got you. Okay. Unfortunately, unfortunately, the, you know, something might have to happen again in order for people to like say, okay, to reset and recalibrate, understand, like, what it takes. You know, sometimes, you know, aggressive activity, sometimes,

violence is required. Yeah. You know, and strong action and deporting people, right, who seem otherwise, you know, they seem okay. No, you don't know that they're okay. Yeah. We know, like the government is a truth and the judges aren't going to sign off on things criminally and administratively unless they have the evidence.

So I think it's going to take something, you know, like this, you know, something bad to happen, even if it's minimal to people that accept it again. Or maybe not. I think people are, you know, I don't know if there's a way back. Eric, anything else you want to put out there that we have. covered in the interview so far? No, I just, I, again, I just, no, I mean, I think we covered so much and I think I hope, you know, like I just wanted to put it out there about, you know, like it's what's happening now,

you know, put it out there and just the heroes of federal law enforcement and local law enforcement and all, an intelligence community and everyone, what they're up against. And I just, and I hope they know, everyone knows. And anybody listens is just going to appreciate what's going on behind the scenes. You know, everyone's just trying to do a job. And the other takeaway is selfishly, I hope that people, take an opportunity to, you know, to support, you know, harm's way, you know, hopefully as it transitions into something, you know, this one's free television. Just again, like, it's not, it's not me,

it's just the opportunity to tell the story about this other side of the world, especially now, and just, you know, to help people understand, like, these are just people that came out of, you know, could have done a lot of different things, had different degrees in this and that, or, you know, and decide to commit to dedicate their lives to doing something, you know, that's dangerous, unusual. There's a lot of sacrifice. And people might not see it because they're not in uniforms. And, you know, just because, you know, they're following a mission that's the administrator

administration orders. I think people who really need to understand that. It's just, you know, they're following orders because they just want to do good in this world. Eric, thank you for coming on the show tonight. We'll have some links down in the description for folks who are interested. in checking out the film or its current state that's publicly available. Yeah, thanks for doing this, man. Really appreciate it.

Yeah, I appreciate this too. And everyone else out there, we will see you next week, maybe, maybe later this week, depending on how things are going, yeah. So we'll see you guys then. Hey, guys, it's Jack. I just want to talk to you for a moment about how you can support the show if you've been watching it, enjoying it, but you like to get a little bit more involved. and help us continue to do this.

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