The Team House - Inside the Horrific Practice of Child Soldiering | Eyes On Geopolitics

Episode Date: May 1, 2025

https://endchildsoldiering.comGrab the book “All The Glimmering Stars”⬇️https://a.co/d/4qB2fwWhttps://www.loboinstitute.orgToday we’re joined by Eric Oehlerich and Mark Sullivan to talk about child soldering and the incredible story of Anthony and Florence in the book “All The Glimmering Stars”, who came out of the other end of being kidnapped and used as child soldiers in Uganda and continue to work to stop the practice. ——————————————————————New merch, patches, and stickers! ⬇️https://theteamhouse-shop.fourthwall.comSupport the show on Patreon:⬇️You get: -Early access and ad free audio/video-The ability to ask the guys and guests questions-$10 level gets all that plus a free patch ⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseFind Mick Mulroy here: Fogbow ⬇️https://fogbow.com/Lobo Institute ⬇️https://www.loboinstitute.org/Twitter ⬇️https://x.com/mickmulroy?s=21&t=-Ze3F_Ix2vlJ18KFvORTCALinkedIn ⬇️https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-patrick-mulroy-31198b52/Bluesky ⬇️https://bsky.app/profile/mickmulroy.bsky.socialMick’s publications ⬇️https://www.loboinstitute.org/publications/publications-of-michael-mick-patrick-mulroy/Find Andy Milburn here: Twitter ⬇️https://twitter.com/i/flow/login?redirect_after_login=%2Fandymilburn8LinkedIn ⬇️https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewmilburn2023Substack ⬇️https://amilburn.substack.com/Andy’s book ⬇️https://www.amazon.com/When-Tempest-Gathers-Mogadishu-OperationsBluesky ⬇️https://bsky.app/profile/andy-milburn.bsky.socialFind Jason Lyons here: LinkedIn ⬇️https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-lyons-666873316?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_appBluesky ⬇️https://bsky.app/profile/bgsilverback73.bsky.sociBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Everybody, welcome to another episode of Eyes On Geopolitics. I'm here with a couple of very special guests. Eric Ulrich and Mark Sullivan. Eric, I think you guys probably know Eric from his team house episode, former Dev Gruz Squadron Commander, all around badass. Great episode. If you haven't seen that, check that one out. Mark Sullivan, pretty prolific author, I'd say.

18 books, I think, and bestsellers. and they've been working on a project called All the Glimbering Stars. It came out about a year ago. The link is in the description, so grab it there. Incredible story about Anthony and Florence Apoka. I hope I said that the right way. Former child soldiers in the LRA in Uganda that did the thing that's kind of like, you know, the impossible and got out, met each other and are today, you know, part of the fight.

against child soldiering. So guys, thanks for, thanks for joining eyes on today. Really appreciate it. Yeah, we're thrilled to be here. Yeah.

Thank you, Dee. No, of course. So all the glimmering stars, I mean, incredible story. Honestly,

it should, it should probably be like a feature film, I think. I think it'd be an incredible feature film that should win awards. Just give us, like, the,

you know, rundown on on the book and the story with Anthony and Florence. Sure. I mean, one of the interesting things is how this all came to pass. So I had two sons who tried to make the U.S. ski team and went to school in Salt Lake City, as did Eric. And very Eric lived and my sons lived with a guy named Alan Hayes. And Alan unfortunately died.

And when he died, Eric and my son Connor and Bridge, they all went to Alan's house and they were part of the crew that was, you know, dealing with Allen's estate. And my son called me up and said, hey, dad, I heard this story from Eric last night, and I think it's your next book. I'm interested in writing books that are inherently moving, inspiring, healing to some people, and transforming to others. And when I heard this story of Anthony and Florence Apocca, I was like, this meets all the criteria and I'm in. We went to Uganda. We were supposed to be there in 20. We ended up going in 21 because of the pandemic.

Our trip even got cut short a little because of the Delta virus. But we were able to spend almost two and a half weeks. And Eric and Mick, his partner, had known Anthony and Florence for years. But it was my first experience with him. And one of the things I've found working on these kinds of stories is when you meet people like Anthony and Florence who have gone through some of the harshest things that a human being can go through. It's remarkable, but they seem to glow inside. It either destroys them or it creates almost like a superhuman. And, you know, the story of Anthony and Florence is these

kids who are 14 years old and they get kidnapped by the Lord's Resistance Army and a mad man named Joseph Coney. And Coney attempts to dehumanize them. and to put them through training that, I believe, Eric, when you heard it, you said most seals could not have survived it. Yeah. And, you know, hearing what they went through and how they survived it was really one of the more remarkable things I've ever heard in my life. when you realize that the reason that they survived and escaped was, first of all, each other, right? But the next thing is that what I found remarkable was they both were raised in villages outside, you know, small cities in Africa and these fairly remote villages. And they were given certain principles and ways to live their life.

Florence, for example, was taught from the very early age that they, There was nothing in the universe more powerful than love. And she held that in her heart, basically her whole life and continues to. And Anthony, in his village, he was taught to be a good human, not a good man, not a good, any of that good human. And it's amazing that despite the fact that they were kidnapped, sent through this training that was an effort to dehumanize them, they both held on to these things in their hearts. and when they met each other five years into this 10-year ordeal, they legitimately fall in love and love basically unearths these lessons from their childhood and allows them to, A, survive the last five years in captivity, but then escape and then to turn the tables on

Connie and his henchmen with Anthony being one of the top witnesses at the international criminal court in the Hague. And the arc of the story is just phenomenal that a kid who's 14 and has the best intentions about life can manage to survive one of the most horrific things I've ever heard of and come out and just being a remarkable human being and an agent for change in an area of life on earth that needs to be changed. Yeah. Please, Eric. Do you add to that, Eric, that I haven't covered?

And the way that it came about where I was able to illustrate this story to Mark's son Connor there at Allen's house was that a few years prior to, I was working counterterrorism operations. I went to Germany down on African Common. and my now business partner and used to be in the agency Mick Mulroy, who has been on the podcast and Team House as well, he was the chief of station in Uganda. I was working to assist the Ugandan's to find Pony. And Mick being the chief of station there in Uganda was central to the hunt for Coney. and it wasn't about Americans capturing

and Tony because if we had Americans, we would have been able to do it, but it was about enabling Ugans to capture and kill us with Tony. And we took a couple really good swings at him. You know, we had them a couple times, but we just couldn't quite close the distance with the UPDUGN and the People's Defense group.

But through that, Mick and I and specifically Mick spent a bit more time with Anthony who at this point had gone through the entire kind of trial tribulation that Mark was talking about

and he then joined the UPDF because in his part he knew the atrocities that he had observed and the things that had been imprinted on him that he didn't have a choice in were not right and he wanted to focus. So he joined the UPDF,

and then he started to help us specifically intercept the communications to cite from, and then know what the LRA elements were doing as we were trying to hunt Coney. So that's how we came across the story. Mick and I have traveled the world.

We've been in every war, every war, most places that are instable and in conflict through the GWAT, the global war on terror. And when we understood the full extent of this story, both of us were like, holy cow, we couldn't, I mean, one, it was hard to believe. And then two, when we knew it was actually true,

we were just like, this needs a broader audience. More people need to hear this because just as Mark laid out, it's moving. it's inspiring. It, you know, their character and pulled them through that. It's transforming for people. And we just felt like it needed a broader audience. And, you know, the universe put us together with Mark through a set of serendipitous circumstances.

And here we are, you know, a couple years later with a book out. But the topic itself is not getting in. That's right. Yeah. And the amazing thing that I found about both the anthems, informants is how humble they were. You know, they easily could have been full of resentment, anger. This thing could have destroyed their life, and yet when you meet them, it actually launched their life. And that's a remarkable thing. The other thing is that when Mick and Eric

came to me and told me the story, they said, if we believe that if this story is told right, it can actually end the practice of child soldiering, you know, raise the awareness, high that people will begin refusing to bring children into combat. I think Eric can talk a little bit about what are the effects of children who are in combat who don't get the rehabilitation that they need. Yeah, thanks, Mark. So, Dee, as the war on terror has progressed, as you know somebody that's been in low level conflict for decades now in and around it and participating in it what i'm seeing is that the number of low level conflict areas around the world are increasing and the problem that happens is that when a conflict let's just take uh we can

use syria for example you know i mean syria started to kick off the real point problem is that when the superpowers align on opposite sides and then they fight through proxy and we continue to supply it, what happens is the conflict doesn't come to resolution quickly. So it's lower levels of conflict. It isn't like World War II all out, you know, massive global conflict. But it's a lower level, but it just goes on and on and on and on. And because you have supplies on both sides, it never ends. And what happens is the people that are in that meat grinder. It starts with adults.

And then five years into it, you're kind of getting into like younger adults. And then seven to eight, nine years into it. Now you start to see that the people that fill those ranks get younger and younger and younger. And I saw it first and am for a long time in Somalia working there. I've seen it firsthand in Yemen. In Afghanistan, it's absolutely paramount. I mean, fathers and uncles, they take 12-year-old boys, their gunfights to learn how fight.

So that's what's occurring. And in Syria, again, for example, you know, we had the Russians aligned with the Assad regime. We had the international community that kind of came in to help take care of the ISIS problem. But in the middle of that, you had ISIS. And ISIS wanted it was a terror war. organization and want to function as a state.

So they had to fill those ranks and they wanted to fill it with people that were below, you know, like the younger. And so we put with the Cubs of Caliphate. The Cubs of Caliphate, I mean, those are, it's almost a carbon copy of the Lord's Resistance argument. They take on these kids,

the doctrine again, they're making them do horrendously violent things to break their psychology, separate them from their parent group, and then be able to morph it to how that terror group guard and the beat. And, you know, right now, you know, so the international community, we got, we got tired of ISIS blowing up concerts in, in France, or running over people at Bastille

Day in France and, you know, doing these attacks in Europe. So the international community bonded together. We went and kinetically bombed them out of Iraq, choked them all the way down in Syria, dumped them. But now we've got the remnants of the Terry group are left in these, independent IDP camps, independently, just space person to us. But yeah, tens of thousands of kids there. They've only known violence. They've only known no stable home. And now they're stuck in this camp on perpetuity with no education,

living cells, and cycle just continues. But that's what I'm seeing around in New York. And the UN reports yearly on the issue of the soldiers and children of being, exploited the trauma it won up over 20% between the last two reporting cycles of the UN so as these conflicts

as more and more these are occurring this this topic this guy I wouldn't even call it a phenomenon it's not like a disease this disease is continuing to spread and increase and this is probably one of the first

books that really gives you a firsthand look what that is like for the kids. They're like the voiceless population. So that's why Mick and I and Mark are a bit passionate about it. And Mick or sorry, Mark committed to writing a book. Yeah. I didn't know much about child soldiering at all.

I was sort of tangentially aware of it. But when Mick and Eric started explaining me what the greater ramifications are of child soldiering, And I realized I had the opportunity to illustrate it through the book and really take people and show them what these kids have to go through. It became, you know, a mission for me that if I could write it in a way that basically brought people right into the experience, I believe that they would be so affected that they would help. And, you know, so far, so good. that we've had like amazing response when people have actually read the thing and been through it. Again, you know, one of the great things is that I got to spend a bunch of time with Anthony and Forrence.

And I don't think I've met two finer human beings. I mean, honest to God, it's remarkable what they went through and again, who they became and that they're trying to end child soldiering and they were willing to, you know, tell parts of their story that were frankly, brutally humiliating to them. And yet they were fiercely honest with me. And because of that, the book rings with authenticity. You know, you know that you are really going along on this ride with them.

The amazing thing to me again was that Coney was basically allowed to operate with impunity for a long time until people started realizing just how far he gone. It's definitely a heart of dark darkness story, I would think, you know, when I really thought about it. And the thing is, you're watching two children go to the heart of darkness and confronting it again and again, because, of course, Anthony, the key thing here to understand is that he became Coney's radio

man. And he was basically right there for the last, well, you know, the seven years that he was in in the Lord's Resistance Army. He was a direct witness to most of what, Coney did, and he certainly was responsible for transmitting his orders. So he knew, he knew, he saw everything. And I think Coney would always tell him, you know, you're going to be my, someday you're going to be my minister of communications when we take over Uganda. And the funny thing, the interesting thing is, of course, he did become the ministry of communication against them, you know, when he gets taken to the Hague. And he testified. against them. I mean, you can you can Google that trial and Anthony's not named, but he's also, he's always referred to as, you know, witness X, Y, Z, but he's the radio man. And it's some of the

most powerful testimony that were in those, those trials because he was a direct eyewitness to everything. And the fascinating thing is how they got out of it. Okay, they escaped, Anthony's escaped is epic. You know, he runs for days, 24 hours of days across, gets catnaps, he's being hunted. But the remarkable thing is they come back and they're able to go on with their lives because they both learned to forgive Coney. Now, when you see what Coney did to them and how he manipulated them and how he attempted to dehumanize their minds. I found it frankly stunning that these two young people come out of this 10-year ordeal and the way they free themselves is to forgive Coney. Now that doesn't mean that they don't want to see him, you know, caught eventually and put on trial because

as Anthony said is, I've forgiven him, but I would testify against him tomorrow. And Florence said the same thing. When you meet people like that who have that kind of courage, it's pretty remarkable. Yeah, you can't help but be in awe of somebody like that that can live in a world like that for 10 years while you're developing as a child, you know, and come out of it, not the most cynical. You know, like just having that kind of transformation is incredible. Most people would think it'd be impossible, right? That's right. And, you know, most people would think it's impossible and they do it. You know, it's not like every child soldier who came out of the LRA got reformed. I mean, the sad fact is that some of these kids don't survive it. They survive it physically, but

mentally they're never the right again. There's not. Alcoholism, drug addiction. Hey, Mark, I'm just, you're a little bit, you're never able to recover for you. Oh, you're back now. You got a little bit choppy for a second there. Okay. Sorry about that.

No, no problem. Yeah. If you could just kick off from West. Yeah. That's right. No, again, you know, the thing is some amazing about them is that they did survive, and they survived through the power of love and forgiveness. And yet a lot of kids who went through it, they didn't come back right.

You know, drug addiction, alcoholism, deep mental illness from what they were forced to do. And, you know, that's the horrible thing is that these kids are innocence. That's the most important thing to keep remembering is they didn't volunteer for this. In Anthony Foreman's case, they were kidnapped. Yo, what's up guys? We had a little bit of technical difficulty with Mark over there, so this is a bit of a cut. Usually I'll drop an ad in here or an ad for our Patreon or something, but I really want to put it in an ad and a little call to action for checking out this story because it's crazy. It's so incredible.

We're filled in a world where everything is falling apart and everything's garbage. And when Anthony and Florence went through was absolutely horrific and for them to come out on the other end and really, prosper and succeed and have a family and still fight to stop child soldiering is kind of incredible so do us a favor go to childsoldering.org link is in the description um a bunch of links are in the description you could check them out the book of course all the glimmering stars anything and everything is down in the description if you can give a couple bucks to what they're trying to do here um because it's a horrific horrific practice and i feel like everybody can kind of get behind ending child's soldiering and stuff like that.

So check out the links in the description. Really appreciate you guys checking out this, this podcast. Thanks. I mean, you know, to be honest with you, D,

it took Mick and I a couple months of talking to Anthony. Yeah. And actually going through the whole sequence of events of it. Before we were like, this thing's real. Yeah, right. I mean,

it's so insane to like, it's so insane. You know, unlike what Mark is bringing up is, is their resiliency. Two kids, 14 years old that are abducted. Other homes, but just some founding principles with their parents had planned at them. And to go through what they did, you know, I mean, Florence's brother was stomped to death in front of her. Anthony, you know, I mean, just, you know, horrific events.

Anthony, I think you shot six times and hit with an RPG. Wickenstayed off his chest and the fins, you know, stabilizing fins on the back in an RPG, ripped through his shoulder and basically tore his right arm almost all the way off. Yeah. I mean, you know, just all that. And then when they do, when they do escape, to LRA.

Like, I mean, put that in context of the average American citizen. Right. At 14, they were abducted

at 24, they're free. Yeah. How many hours of counseling and everything else do you think they would be like,

oh my God, I'll never be right. I don't even think there's enough hours in a day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yet,

and yet you have these kids and maybe they didn't have counsel. They don't have, no. Like, what they have is they have their own courage. They have the long of the seeds that their parents are going. Like, you know, the resiliency is as admirable as the ability to, with this done any. You know, I don't want to talk about the whole story.

Sure. But, you know, the two things that stand out for me are. first and foremost, Florence, but in the book she's known as Betty, because she refused to give her abductors her name. But Betty, hands down, toughest woman I've ever met by entire life. Absolutely. And there's a part of that book and her story that, it's hard for me to even, like, watch the own documentary, Nick and I put together about it and not get a tear in my about. high test and what she did and what she had to face on her own with a couple small kids it's just it's yeah giving birth in the middle of a firefight it's insane yeah yeah yeah when i when i heard

from eric and mick that she had given birth during in combat um i was all right i'm gonna i want to write this book and then but to hear her tell the story of having a toddler on her back carrying an AK-47 in the middle of a firefight, in the Nile river bottom. It's poor in rain. The Nile's flooding and they're being attacked by the Ugandan army. And she has to take herself across the river on a rope with her kid. she basically creates a raft out of empty bottles and puts them in a plastic bag and she gets across

and she's under a heavy machine gun fire and she gets to the bank and she's in active labor and she gives birth during this nighttime fire fight and I you know I agreed with Eric she's the toughest woman I've ever met in my life and and yet she's got the most brilliant smile and laugh and she genuinely loves life. You know, she told us that when we came, that before we listened to the story, she did not think much of her life story, which I found extraordinary in and of itself, that she didn't. But she said that by the questions we asked her, and I asked her that she began to see that her story was in effect a universal story about just how strong the human spirit can be

and I mean she is an absolute classic example of the strength of the human spirit and what it can overcome and then for for Anthony and the only time that Anthony showed emotion when we were asking him about all the questions about being shot repeatedly, having an RPG almost rip his arm off, seeing these atrocities committed against these villagers by, you know, Connie and his soldiers. The only time that he was ever emotional

was when he talked about surrendering. Because it was him, in his eyes, it's the first time that he had ever given up. And it was extremely hard for him. he'd figured out a way to get his family out of there. He'd figured out a way to receive a message from her that she actually made it. He figured out a way to cover up

that he was going to make a run for it. And then he, you know, he picked his star and that, he ran and put it all in the line. He went for it. And even at the end of all that, it was hard for him to finally give up his gun. and surrender. It's the only time he gets emotional.

Yep. Yeah, but, you know, it just, and it just shows his resiliency. And, you know, like, going through seal training, don't tell you all the time, look, this, it's not a physical thing, it's a mental thing.

We're just using physical pain to see how tough you are mentally. And that's, it's absolutely accurate. We've got all sorts of ways to figure out what they are mentally. He had the same thing, and that guy is just incredible. Yeah. Yeah, and one of the things you've got to understand is that the number one rule in the LRA is you never give up your gun.

Number one rule, because the guns were hard to come by. They usually were found in combat if they weren't, you know, when they were proxy armies, they were given weapons. but he gets a weapon out of combat that's left behind and it becomes like his security blanket as well as his defense and every other thing but yeah that moment where the the lieutenant who comes out to receive him says you know it's over it's time to come home that was the only time i saw him break and he just started crying recalling that moment because he was out.

You know, I mean, that was it. That was his moment. And then, of course, you know, they put him in jail because he's a, you know, he's a former LRA guy. And they start interrogating him and they find out who he is. And they find out he's the radio man. And that not only that, he knows this code system that they developed called Tomfas. And the Tomphas were designed to allow them to communicate, you know, with various LRA factions around southern Sudan and in Uganda and to talk without, you know, understanding him.

One of the first interrogators comes in and finds out he's the radio man. He says, prove it and slides across this, you know, communique that they had intercepted, and he basically translates it right there on the spot. And then they know who he is. And then they know that he's going to be an incredible tool because he can tell him exactly what they're doing when and why. And he really becomes the brain trust of all the people who are trying to hunt Coney. And it's just phenomenal what the guy does and how he does it. But again, Mick is a big stoic, for example. And I don't think I've ever met a more stoic person in a sense

than Anthony because he doesn't get rattled by it. And yet he's the first guy to smile. he's the first guy to laugh, you know, he's the first guy to just accept you for who you are. I mean, I was a total stranger. Eric and Mick, you know, knew him. I come. I mean, within a couple hours, you know, I felt like he was a really close friend because he was telling me all this stuff and opening up. And the fact that he retained this amazing sense of humor. They like life.

They see life. You know, they both told me. that after everything they've been through, they look at life as a miracle. Now, that's pretty stunning, right? To go through 10 years of captivity, be exposed to all these inhumane things, and to still believe that life is a miracle is shocking to me. And it really made me, like, rethink everything about myself, right? I mean, I was like, all right, you know, I'm a pretty tough guy.

I'm not Ulrich or Mick, but, you know, whatever and but I was just in awe of what this guy had gone through and who he became and the same thing for Florence you know she was forced to do horrible things you know they married her off to like a 70 plus year old guy and thank God he got killed in combat and that's how she ends up you know marrying Anthony and you know they're the way they the both of us describe their meeting was just you know it was funny it was tender it was beautiful and it all happened in the middle of the worst thing right that you can imagine and they legitimately fall in love and when you meet them they're still in love you know they're they're very passionate about each other

and and it was definitely one of the peak experiences of my life to meet them and interview and and to tell their story on page. Yeah, I mean, it's just unbelievable story. And it kind of gives you back a little bit of faith in humanity a little bit. When you do become a little bit cynical, you hear people like that go through these kinds of things where most folks, if they experience 10% of that, and understandably so would be, you know, broken by it, right? And it would take forever to, you know, try and get back to, you know, some

semblance of normal, you know, being normal. Eric, I'd like what you would make, have done with this story just because we hear about child soldiering, you know, and it kind of feels abstract, right? You know, it's some faraway place where we don't think about it. And it's like, when we hear about it, we're like, oh, it's very sad and terrible, and it shouldn't be happening. By bringing Anthony and Florence's story to the forefront, you see. see that like these are actually human beings that are going through this this isn't you know

something that's like you're just reading in a headline or something like that and their story's so incredible that it's like you need to we need to try and figure out how to fix this issue of child soldiering worldwide i mean i know it's a tough a tough hill to climb but um do you want to talk more about like the strategic level of like where it's at now how like how what we could do to like try and fix it try to mitigate it as much as possible and all that yeah d thank you um like i said when i kind of outline the topic at large on the trends that are occurring and kind of where it's going um one of the one of the biggest things with the book is that you know we brought uh we brought the ability through mark is you know we brought the ability through mark is

you know, talent and writing to walk the readers through what it's like to be a child stuck in that situation. And a large part of the revenue generated from that book goes to a nonprofit that we're all a part of. It's called N-child-soldering. And with N-child-soldering, we've given out a couple what we call a Poco Awards yearly, annually. We kind of, and we kind of, and, we, Nick and I understand the topic really well. We understand where this cancer is occurring a lot. And then, you know, we find, we know a lot of the inroads and organizations that are very effective at getting right down to that grassroots level.

And the dollar goes a long way there. And so basically a large amount of the book proceeds, they go into a nonprofit and that we're helping to affect change. Um, you know, there's another institution that, uh, they do a really good job at it. And, you know, we'll probably end up partnering with them in some way, shape, or form. It's called the DeLare Institute. And, uh, General Delaire was a Canadian, um, he was on the Canadian Defense Force. And he was the UN officer in charge during the Rwanda genocide.

So he saw that whole thing unfold. And he wasn't a peace keeping. He was just in a modern capacity for the UN. So he couldn't really do anything to stop the genocide as it was unfolding and had a traumatic effect on him. So he came back to Canada and he started the Dallaire Institute. And that institute, they monitor precursors for instability. And those precursors are, they're very ingenuitive. I've been involved in targeting and precursors

and low-level conflict for decades. Their approach is very sound. You know, it's in partnership with illness like that. We want to be able to offer the Cubs of the Caliphate. So those kids, they want education. They're not a future. they want to be they want to have a pipeline to advance their lives other than sit in the perpetuity in an IDP camp in northeast Syria yeah I mean the only thing that's that's

fomenting is anger resentment no future the only thing they can turn to is violence because it's the only option and and that's what we want to do you know I mean you know between between the book and the revenue and then the inroads that we know how to how to plug into. We want to help put some chemotherapy to this cancer. Yeah. And, and,

you know, the book's a tool of raising the awareness. Yeah. But it's, it's raising the awareness on a topic that it's vile. It absolutely should not be happening. I mean, you know,

conflict is inevitable. Make the people that decide to go to conflict. Make them the ones are irresponsible. Don't make the 12-year-old kid that's in the proxist. That's, you know, a personal belief. You know, like, can you talk a little bit more about the precursors? You know, I mean, obviously economic instability, inability to get a decent education. And then just, I think some of it is just that they're in the wrong place at the wrong time when they get grabbed.

But you can talk to that more than I can. Yeah, that's for the kids themselves, for sure. but you're you're absolutely keen into the right parts there mark you know it's it's the economic levels of poverty um and then you know ironically one of the last things you see fall or one of the worst things if you start to see it you're like uh we better like you got to focus in on it it's a lack of respect for community laws and that that is is uh that plays out in violence against ironically like policemen, those that enforce the law,

when you see that they are now being on the receiving end of violent acts and then that erosion of law, that's one of the biggest dominoes that falls is when you don't have law or security in an area combined with extreme poverty, and here you go. Then it opens, it opens a door,

and this is where these, these organizations, these extremist organizations can take root. And then this is where the cycle starts. Yeah. The other thing I saw, I used to be a Peace Corps volunteer in West Africa in Niger, a place that Eric's pretty familiar with. And I lived in a place called Agadez, was way up in the Sahara Desert, which is now an incredibly dangerous place.

I probably wouldn't go there. And I lived there for two years. And I saw two things. I saw one, kids who went to. like public schools and, you know, their parents had to come up with the money for them to go to school, and they were exposed to all sorts of books, right? All sorts of education and so. But you would walk through the old city of Agadez, and there would be Sharia schools and one book, and they're just chanting the story over and over and over and over again. And that's the

educational part. The thing about Florence and Anthony is they were totally into education. They were great students. They not only had this education from their parents on what was fundamental and important in life, but they were exposed to a lot, you know, and Florence's greatest dream was to have been a nurse and go, and she was denied that. But the fact that they weren't raised on one book. They were raised on many is part of this. And When you have one book, you have only one way of seeing the world, and it's very hard to see the world as your neighbor might or that as, you know, even a fellow combatant might. And that to me is one of the big, big precursors, is what kind of education did they get before they were taken? And it's amazing to me how young they were when they learned these lessons, right?

These things were taught to them at a very young age, the power of love, being a good human being. And it developed until they were grabbed. And yet it managed to anchor in them so hard and so well that they were able to survive the basically the unsurvivable. And I, you know, I'm a dramatist at heart. You know, I look for stories that have that kind of drama and human component. And boy, when I heard this story, it was in spades, you know, the fact that they would get, they would survive one thing and they would be faced with something worse and then worse and worse. And it wasn't just combat. It was the psychology of the Lord's Resistance Army and how the entire thing was operated. And it was operated by sheer terror, you know, inflicted upon these children. Yeah, I mean, I still can't get over how they got out of this and they still have such a great look on life, man. It's like, it's really honestly inspiring in a world where like we're inundated with like miserable stories all the time and stuff like that.

This is actually like a good one and it needs to be amplified. I mean, I mean, it just needs to because I'm pretty cynical dude, right? And I haven't been through much. And you hear about this. You're like, holy shit. like there are these people out there who they might be one in 500 million but they're out there right and it's incredible that they found each other that they were able to get out that they have a family that they're doing well now they're trying to fight this now i mean it's as close

as you come to like saints in you know on earth and it's unbelievable so like guys check out the book please it's the link is in the description it's uh all the glimmering stars um and you know i've told it to make before because nick does the show pretty regularly and um and i've said it before on the show like you eric have been pretty much at the pinnacle of your career right when you were in dev group squadrona you know you've done a lot of stuff you could have got out and probably made five times more the money you're making now. And I told that to Mick too, right? S-I-S, big-time guy, worked in the DOD, you know, and I've said it on the show.

Like, what you guys are doing with Fogbo and Lobo and the end child soldiering, I mean, I really, really do respect it because, like, you guys could have came out and just went out and tried and gotten a check, right? And, like, can make more money, secure your family even more and do all that stuff, but you're not. because you guys have seen what's been what's out there in the world right and even if you're a hard charging seal team six guy or a ground branch guy or whoever right you could be rambo you see things like this i mean it's obviously gonna put an imprint on on you right to try and do something

you know more and better and you know kind of make this world a little bit better right so i got really honestly it's commend it's highly commendable man that's why like i i respect micks so much Eric, you too and Mark, you tell them the story about this is what gets people to understand. Understand to like a human level, right? To like on the ground seeing what it's like, right? Because a lot of times too many people do think of it in the abstract. Like, oh yeah, we should stop child hunger, child soldiering, child sex slavery, which is it's all together. But like they don't really understand like the visceral nature of what it's like, right?

So like telling a story like this is, I think, so important. to like getting the word out there. You know what I mean? So really, guys, this is incredible stuff you guys are doing. And it needs to be made into a movie or a mini series or something. Like it needs to get elevated even more and told to even larger audience.

We think the same thing. We do believe that if the story spreads, it will raise such an awareness of this issue that governments will begin to act. And, you know, the ideal thing is to make it, it so heinous and under people understanding just the the brutal ramifications of child soldiering that even in these low-level conflicts that the warlords will refuse to do it. I mean, that's ideal.

I don't know if we're ever going to get there, but, you know, that's the ideal situation. And it is an issue that hides right in front of you. One of the things that I just happened to watch Black Hawk down the other day and also the documentary that was done on it. And there were child soldiers in that scene, in that fight. They're running all over the place. You see them and the interesting thing is they don't wear uniforms for the most part. So it's hard to tell who's a combatant and who's not.

And especially when there's children running in the middle of a, of a, of a uniform. a firefight, you know, it's stunning. And I was watching that documentary and all I could think of was Florence Anthony, you know. I mean, I was, I was, you know, very much in the story of the soldiers on the ground, but my eye was going beyond the soldiers. I was looking at the guys attacking them. And there were a lot of kids in the actual documentary. So you can see it. It's there and it's almost hiding in plain sight during these situations. I mean, you get into urban warfare, they're going to be children. Yeah.

They may not be combatants, but they're certainly getting affected by it. You know, and that's an entirely other issue, but they're totally related. Eric, I got a question about, like, when you mentioned an Afghani kid, where, like, their uncles and stuff will just bring them to a firefight when they're 12 or 13 to just like, you got to learn, right? culture to culture right and country to country does it change in terms of like you know obviously like Anthony and Florence were kidnapped like this kid is just born into this where it's like you know we learn how to fish you got to learn how to you know shoot an AK at a bad guy that's you know that we think is a bad guy so like I I'm really interested in like the nuances of the

different cultures and how because it really seems like a traditional thing for like an Afghani kid, right? They've been fighting people their whole lives for the most part. So like, oh, you know, little Mike is 12 years old now. So let's teach him how to do this because he's going to have to know. Yeah, I think that it, it, there's differences between exploitation and culture. Yeah. And you do see instances of cultural, like normality.

It's, I mean, more or less kind of what we're bringing up here. and somebody just like tribal, well, or something, versus exploitation. And in Somalia, I've witnessed

the exploitation firsthand and effectively and overtime on a very high level. So that's absolutely exploitation. You know, another form of exploitation

is that, you know, there's very wealthy Gulf states that are involved in conflict. You know, the Saudis and the Emirates were involved in the Yemen conflict for a number of years here just recently. And, you know, like, they don't want their soldiers on the front line. So, like, the Saudis were hiring Sudanese to come into southern Yemen and then push on up against the Houthis as they worked up the coast.

Well, when you start looking at pictures of those Sudanese forces. oh yeah you'll start picking out you'll start picking out 13 14 year old boys stand there with the great big AK and they're very small right the clothes are overgrown and you're like okay so

that's exploitation that's a country that doesn't want to do its own fighting they're contracting it out right and and everybody turns a blind eye to it in fact the U.S. A

is a great for those years of this Say that again. The US gave, yeah, the US gave him a waiver on the act to do that. Yikes.

Yeah. So this is what Mark and I are talking about. Like, you know, the story, the book provides a first look through this entire process. It shows you.

But then behind it is, you know, it's the legislation. It's the blind eye. It's hiding right there in plain sight, just as Mark was talking about. And so we're trying to, If we elevate it, if we get enough awareness on it and we're able to elevate it, we're able to do two things.

We're able to sway enough people to actually make it matter for the rules, for the legislative rules. And then we're also able to generate revenue that we can put to the right cause at the grassroots level and actually address some of the stuff where it's needed most. And that's our whole effort. And I super appreciate the kind words, you know, about, you know, you saying, hey, you know, you know, Mick and Mark, Eric, you know, like you guys could be doing a lot of other things, but, you know, you've left government life, but you're still pushing, you know, the boulder uphill. And, you know, it's just kind of in our DNA at this point. Yeah, I believe it.

The issue that we, I don't know, I haven't talked a lot about this with Eric and Mick, But one of the issues is these ideas of proxy armies, right? That one government is paying, you know, a separate army or separate entity to do their fighting. And certainly that's what was going on with the LRA. They were being funded by the Sudanese government to try to fight the Dinka who were attempting to secede. And, you know, when it's, when there's an army for hire, when I really think about the LRA, there were veterans of the actual Ugandan Civil War. And then they were basically mercenaries being hired by the Sudanese government.

But it was the children who did the fighting. They put the children right in front. One of the more stunning things is when you learn that the first time an LRA child soldier went into war, he went in unarmed. And he just, he was expected to march into gunfire unarmed. And Coney would preach to them that if they believed enough in Coney and his spirit that they would be protected, well, they weren't protected. I mean, Anthony almost had his arm blown off and fight and shot. How many times he wounded? Five times? Just unreal. And it was all because of a proxy army. In fact, the LRA starts to collapse when the more.

money, you know, gets withheld. And, and, and they're chasing him and he runs into the Congo. And, you know, there's evidence that says he's still there. Right. Right. So. I've not given up on that guy. He is still on the radar. Yeah. I figured out where he is. We could, we could take a swing at him if we want it. But he's pretty isolated and he's pretty ineffectual right now. Yeah. And, but, uh, I would, I would say,

yeah, I mean, you can get them if we wanted to. But unfortunately, I, I don't, I don't think it'd be very plausible with capture him at this point, what there he is. So we're kind of just letting them, let it be. Yeah, I did read, uh, when I, you know,

the Cole, Kony, everyone remembers the Kony 2012 thing in that really put, even though it kind of got a, you know, kind of dragooned into like something totally different, but it did put a spotlight on him. And I was reading about him yesterday, like exactly what Eric said.

He's kind of like, he doesn't have like the 3,000 strong like, you know, militia that he used to. It's like probably down to like, you know, a dozen guys and stuff like that. So he's really ineffectual in terms of that. So I mean,

but still we could send somebody over from J-Soc just put a couple in the back of his head and let him, you know, he deserves it. I feel like even though we're talking. talking about something humanitarian with what happens with child soldiering. I feel like anybody you ask anybody who, and they're going to be honest with you, I think if anybody deserves it, it's that guy.

I'd love to see him tried, though. I would like to see him, and I would love to see Anthony testify against him. If it ever happened, I'd be sitting in that courtroom to watch. I really would. Even if I got nothing out of it other than they're seeing the satisfaction of Anthony being able to face it. because Anthony gets very serious when he talks about this. And he said, I have forgiven him, but I would testify against him tomorrow. And I would love to see the guy captured and be made to face, you know, in court, what are you done?

But that's just me. Eric, without giving up any like sources and methods, but there's got to be some group of people that are looking into this guy, right? like on our side on the U.S. government, I see whatever apparatus. No? Are they just know where he's at? They know he's ineffectual and they don't really look at much. The organizations that have a be on them are,

they're not a government organizations actually. Okay. It's kind of ironic that way. Interesting. Right now. But, you know, I mean, when he was a true factor of instability in the region, then he was, you know, at a level that took some government oversight of.

Now, you know, he's a release. Yeah, it's more private. But there's this, you know, to Mark's point, seeing him stand trial would be kind of the ultimate vindication. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and the other thing is that he hasn't stood trial. And I mean, we believe that as the book,

went to press that he was dead. And then all of a sudden, I think about a week before the book came out, we found out that the Wagner group out of Russia was hunting him. And that was the last I heard, but we did hear that they had located him in a certain part of the deep northern Congo. But when they went in to try to find him,

you know, they had scattered. So that's our last known understanding. anywhere he is. I mean, honestly, guys, just an incredible story. I'm reminding everybody again, the link is in the description, all the glimmering stars, get the book, watch the doc, do both, honestly. Because like, you can't, like, if a writer came up with this and pitched it, you'd be like, oh, that's, I don't know if that can really happen.

You know what I mean? Like, this kind of sounds a little to crazy, right? Yeah. And like out of like real chaos and just evil like two people and a family came out, found each other and are doing well today. I mean, it's just it's super inspired. I have goosebumps. It's like inspiring, man.

It's, it's unbelievable. So check out the book, guys. Like it's so good. You know, you have to. Yeah. Thank you, Dee. Of course. Really appreciate your time.

Anything else that I missed or anything that you want to talk about. I mean, you tell me. I don't think so. Yeah. It's just that, hey, these trends are not going in the right direction. Yeah.

You know, and it's something to solve it. Right. We absolutely can solve it. Yeah. Yeah. So. All right, guys. Appreciate your time. Thank you very much.

No, thank you guys. Again, guys, the book is called All the Glimbering Stars. The link is in the description. The links, Lobo, Fogbo, check out what they're doing as well. Incredible stuff. Humanitarian aid.

Trying to do it across the world against kind of tough, tough, tough odds. I'm going to put a link also to Mark's other books, too, if you want to check out Mark's other books. He's pretty prolific writer. And I'm going to try and, like, I got a couple friends that are, like, producer friends that are in, like, Hollywood and stuff.

I'm going to try and, like, at least send them this and be like, hey, this literally. really needs to be made into like a narrative, a narrative movie or a mini series or something to tell like the real full story. So I'll try and do what I can do to help, you know, push this along and get it in front of people's eyeballs. Appreciate that.

Of course. And also just if you could put a link up to end child soldiering, there is a link on the website where people who are interested in contributing to the end of child soldiering. Is it nchildsoldiering.org? Is that the link? And child soldiering.org or calm? I can't remember.

I think it's dot org. Okay. I will have it in the link. I just wanted to get you guys to say it out loud for people that are listening and stuff. It'll be in the video description and the show notes if you're listening to us on audio. Guys, do the right thing. They're not making money off the book. This isn't like their retirement fund.

They're doing this out of the, you know, kindness of their hearts. So you could do a little bit too. Buy the book. Watch the documentary. Go to this website. see if you could give a couple bucks. Whatever you can do, it's going to a good cause. So, you know, it's something everybody can agree with.

Left, right, center, middle, up, down, doesn't matter. Like, you know, kids in war, no one's down for that. Like, what are we talking about? No one's winning with children in war. Right on. Thanks again, guys. This is great. Thanks to you, Mark.

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