The Team House - Inside the Pentagon on 9/11 | Ambassador Matthew Klimow

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with our guest tonight in studio. Ambassador retired Matthew Clemell. He retired as a colonel out of the military and then served in the senior executive staff. A senior executive service. Thank you. At State Department. For over 20 years and was the Deputy Assistant Secretary General of NATO for transformation. And my other overseas assignment was five years as Ambassador to turn. understand and his book is as the pentagon burned as we're going to talk about you were in the pentagon on 9-11 um so we'll get we'll get into all of that sure um but thank you for coming into the studio that's a great pleasure jack yeah admire your work thank you thank you appreciate it um

Starting point is 00:00:48 so you know i ask pretty much all of the people on this show if you could tell us you know your origin story like how did you grow up and how did that sort of take you towards military service. Yeah, thanks for asking. For my generation, it's kind of a typical story. I grew up in Johnson City, New York. It's upstate near Binghamton, Triple Cities. It was an ethnic city, a factory town. All my grandparents were born in Eastern Europe, Slovak, Polish, what's now Ukraine. And my neighbors were same thing, either first, second or third generation, Americans. It seemed like all the Slavic countries were represented on the north side of Johnson City, the Irish are on the south side, Endicott, New York next to us, big Italian-American community. And we had big factories there, Indicott Johnson shoes, factories dotted the whole valley. And IBM, that's where Thomas J. Watson had his factories. But they were manufacturing things, too, not software, but hardware. My mom and dad, I had the perfect match, Jack.

Starting point is 00:02:02 My dad was the sweetest man in the world. I mean, everybody just adored him. Didn't have a mean bone in his body, but my mom was a driving force in my life. And that's how I ended up at West Point, I'm sure of it. Dad fought in World War II. He was at the Battle of the Bulge. In fact, I took him back when I was stationed in Germany. to retrace his steps through Belgium and Germany

Starting point is 00:02:32 because he was not only at the Battle of the Bulge, but he was in the town of Melmody, huddled near the train station hiding when they got word that the POWs were being gunned down by the Nazis. Yeah, yeah. So he talked about how much fear he had. And he was at Ramagan Bridge when it actually fell.

Starting point is 00:02:53 So, you know. Your dad was, he immigrated from Eastern Europe? No, my grandfather. Oh, your grandfather did. Okay. Because there were some people who immigrated here and then got drafted into the military and sent right back.

Starting point is 00:03:04 No doubt. But he had an eighth grade education. My mom finished high school. And he worked in a factory for 40 years. But he always dressed well. Here I am in my French cuffs. And he didn't talk a lot about the war. But when he did, you know, you pay attention when you're a little bit.

Starting point is 00:03:27 boy. Yeah. I remember watching the Army Navy game on television with him and just being so blown away by the cadets in uniforms and the midshipment. But I was a good student, but not a great student. And I never thought I could ever get into an academy. But the typical story, I had a high school history teacher who really believed in me and said, the West Point recruiters coming next week and I want you to go and meet with him. And I was kind of surprised he said that, but I went and got the nomination from a local congressman and got accepted. And that was life-changing, obviously, but at West Point was not, to me, you know, this is going to be an Army career. It was the destination itself. I didn't know what was going to come back. What year was this that you show

Starting point is 00:04:21 up at West Point? In 1970. So, you know, as I explained to somebody recently, talking about the turmoil that we see in our own country right now, I'm a child with the 60s. I was a teenager in the 1960s. We saw Washington burn and Detroit burn. There were race riots on naval ships. I mean, you know, I know our country has had its ups and downs and I'm a strong believer that it will see our way through this. But I remember being asked by my political philosophy instructor, a guy named West Clark, went on to be a four-star general. Yeah, an Ado commander, wasn't it?

Starting point is 00:05:06 Yeah. And he asked me what my career plans were when he was a captain and I was a cadet. And I said, I'll probably just do my five-year commitment and get out and maybe go to Washington. And he said, politics. That's where the power is in voice clock. Really believed in that, obviously. But I had a great experience. My first assignment was in Germany during the Cold War,

Starting point is 00:05:32 which was great because you're in the field all the time, and you had a real training mission. It was also great because I met my wife, Eadie, who was an Army nurse, and they didn't get married right away. It took me a little while to wake up that this was the one. She's here. Patiently watching, just off the camera. And, but we did get married.

Starting point is 00:05:54 And so we are an Army family in the richest sense of it. Speaking of the difficulties the country was going through, I mean, the stories I've heard about the post-Vietnam Army, particularly in Germany, you hear some wild stuff. I mean, were there some leadership challenges for you as a young officer? Boy, perfect question. And that's not set up because you didn't know the history here. But in 1972, for my summer training as at West Point Cadet, I spent a month, maybe six weeks in Germany, training with an infantry unit, 154 infantry out of Bamberg, Germany. And our rotation in Grafenvere was during my time there.

Starting point is 00:06:38 So we had a lot of field time. And we had a race riot in the company I was in. And boy, it was an eye-opener. and it was rough and tumble. But it was a great experience, though. And the young soldiers that I worked with, they, I think, took me under their wing. And I'm not talking about the senior NCOs.

Starting point is 00:07:04 That's their job. You know, the young enlisted soldiers, draftees, who had no intention to staying in the Army very long, knew that it was, I was kind of a unique kind of thing to have a West Point cadet there. And they didn't hassle me. I think they really tried to teach me. And it was a wonderful experience.

Starting point is 00:07:27 So I knew I wanted to be in the infantry when I graduated. And that's what I chose. Not that I was high enough in a class to have a lot of choices, but it was perfect for me. It threw me in the briar patch. And so when you got back, you said, you know, your unit in Germany had a real world mission that you were prepared for, you know, preparing for the, you know, what we thought was an imminent Soviet invasion.

Starting point is 00:07:53 Well, you know, you went to not only, we're in the field, just training in general, but you actually went to the sites, the exact locations that you would go to, as they used to say, if the balloon goes up, you know, here's the routes you would take. This is where your armored personnel carrier will be. this is where the tank platoon that's supporting union will be, which is, you know, pretty remarkable. But we had a great experience because the second armored division, I'm sorry, the 11th cavalry regiment had to do their rotation at Graffin Bier.

Starting point is 00:08:34 So we took their place. So we had for two months border duty on the East German, West German border. And, you know, you could just imagine. running up and down the fence and seeing the East German soldiers in the towers and a real sense of purpose. And so the Cold War was dangerous, you know, in some ways, but it was a great experience for a young lieutenant. And I wouldn't have traded that for anything. You knew your wife to be running around Germany at the time. I took her up to the border. There used to be a one kilometer zone you couldn't go into because

Starting point is 00:09:14 A lot of the area of the border is not obvious. The fence that the Warsaw Pact soldiers put up was behind the border, so they had room to shoot at people trying to escape. So you could easily wander over the West German border into East Germany before you even saw a fence. So they kept American troops away, but I took my bride to be up there to show her my border sector and wander around. We had some good times. So it sounds like you fell in love with the Army during that, you know, your initial platoon leader experience. You know, I had a pretty typical infantry career in some ways, in some ways not. Coming out of, for those familiar with the Army, coming out of the advance course, the assignment that I got was to the third infantry regiment, the old guard in Washington, D.C.

Starting point is 00:10:10 So I had a distinct honor of commanding the Honor Guard Company, which includes the Tomb and the Unknown Soldier and the Presidential Honor Company that marches at the White House and for the official receptions of heads of state and everything, which was pretty neat. And I was there for President Reagan's first inaugural. Actually escorted President Reagan from Capitol Hill after his swearing in. And we marched down to the reviewing stand at the White House. During his speech, this is a true story. I sat next to Jimmy Stewart and Johnny Carson, who are watching their buddy Ronald Reagan become president to their astonishment. And that's another thing I'll never forget.

Starting point is 00:11:02 The Army presented many great opportunities. That's a very high visibility posting for you, you know, as a commander of that. unit because of how like I said how visible it is in Washington DC right yeah and it's also indicative of where I was heading I suppose because that Washington bug had bit me and I knew I wanted to come back at some point but not in a ceremonial position I knew I wanted to be on some high-level staff in the Pentagon maybe in the National Security Council even at that point of being a junior officer and you know That's a point I make Jack to young, not only young military officers when I was still in uniform,

Starting point is 00:11:47 but to people that I mentored throughout my career, 20 plus year career as a diplomat, young foreign service officers, setting goals and knowing where you want to go, managing your own career. And one of the goals, as I mentioned, was I knew I wanted to go back to Washington in a policy position. And because I had that goal, I made a strategic career choice. I was a battalion commander. I was selected for the war college. And you get a choice of, not a choice, but you could list your top three choices.

Starting point is 00:12:23 Fort Knox. Well, no, this is the war college. So you can go to the Army War College, the National War College, or the Sister Services, the Naval War College Air Force. But they had maybe six or seven. fellowships. Most of them were at prestige places like Harvard, Stanford, the Atlantic Council. They had one slot at the Center for International Relations at Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario. My wife, Edy, and I had been on vacation to Kingston. It is on the Thousand Islands where the St. Lawrence River meets Lake Ontario, Lake America. It's beautiful, beautiful.

Starting point is 00:13:07 And Queens University campus, I remember as a tourist, seen it. And I said, nobody is going to sign up to make that their first choice. And if I listed, I'm pretty sure I'll get it. And I did. And that changed the whole trajectory of my military career from being a typical infantry officer. Because when I was at Queens at the Center for International Relations as a visiting defense, Fellow. I was teaching a course on national security and I invited my old mentor to come and speak to the students there and then give a lecture at the Royal Military College,

Starting point is 00:13:48 which was across the way. And Lieutenant General Dan Crispin came and the Canadian students all had their long knives out for an American general and he was the smartest guy in the room. He graduated number one in his West Point class. was on, had been on the National Security Council and had a career that I envied. And he came up and he spoke to the students and then to the Royal Military College cadets and had a wonderful time. And he said, I don't know where you want to go after your fellowship, but I'm going to take care of your next assignment. And the next thing you know, I was his executive assistant where he was the assistant to the chairman of the joint

Starting point is 00:14:31 chiefs, General John Shelley Cushfeeley. And And my first day in the job, our office suite adjoined the chairmen's, and General Shali Kashvili introduced me to the directors of the joint staff, all the three stars in the room, and the vice chairman at the time was a four-star Admiral Edmeloans. And our job was to travel with the Secretary of State wherever the secretary went overseas. So General Crispin and I for one year traveled with Warren Christopher and with Secretary of State. The war in the Balkans was raging, and that was our focus along with looking at NATO enlargement. And I was also put on an interagency arms control team that was negotiating the START 3 treaty framework and the conventional forces Europe, CFE,

Starting point is 00:15:29 treaty extension. Warren Christopher was a gracious, a real gentleman, just a gracious guy. So I'm a colonel, small fry in this coteray. We're traveling on the old Air Force ones, which became Air Force twos when they got to 747. So these are those beautiful 707s. I remember flying on the same plane that took John F. Kennedy's body back from Dallas on one of these missions. that we undertook. And we went to Berlin for some talks and got to the hotel and I was in my t-shirt and there's a knock on the door and there's Warren Christopher asking me if I'd like to go out to dinner.

Starting point is 00:16:12 And so it was a dream job. But after one year, General Crispin left and Warren Christopher left and it was the second term for President Clinton and Madeline Albright became Secretary of State. and I wasn't sure if I would fit in if they would welcome me into her close circle because when you're on that airplane, you're mixing with her immediate staff or senior staff. Our first trip was to Brussels. When she was a secretary, she was going to give her first intervention of speech at the North Atlantic Council to NATO. And my job, Jack, was to review her speech for any military equities and make sure that everything was aligned. Before the trip, this is again when the Balkan War was really ugly, terrible. There was a meeting in the Pentagon, and the vice president's national security advisor, Leon Firth, came over for the prep meeting for her first trip to NATO.

Starting point is 00:17:25 and he said, we should create a NATO Russia brigade. And Shali Kashvili, the chairman, said, that, that's a stupid idea. I don't want to hear that again. Just pooh-pooed it, you know, I paid attention. So now, two weeks later, we're on the flight over the Atlantic Ocean. I always sat next to my buddy, who is the speechwriter, Tom Malinowski, who became a congressman. And Tom gave me a copy of the speech, and I read through it. everything look fine to me and I put my big fat initials in the top corner and I learned when I

Starting point is 00:18:03 started to fall asleep in these arms control meetings overseas that I should pop an ambient and get my sleep when I could. So I popped an ambient, closed my eyes so it could be fresh when we arrived in Europe and Malinowski gets this phone call and the phone's on the bulkhead and it's from Vice President Gore's National Security Advisor and he says, Tom, put something. And then they're about creating a NATO-Russia brigade. So he isn't know. He puts it in. Oh, my God.

Starting point is 00:18:31 She gives her speech. It's front-page news around Europe. And all hell broke loose. Not well-received. Everybody in Washington knows who the hell is this new secretary think she is. The proposal was the idea that it's like in cooperation with the Russians? Yes. But, you know, creating a brigade.

Starting point is 00:18:51 It wasn't, you know, you have this sector and we have this sector. It was a totally different concept. So the next morning, I'm called in with Tom Mellinowski, a speechwriter, into this holding room. And because I later served at NATO, I get to know well, but it's a big, big room. And there's only two people in it. It's Madeline Albright and her chief of staff and White Chokas. And we walk up to her and she said, look, you two, I screw up enough for myself. I don't need you two screwing up for me.

Starting point is 00:19:20 Don't ever let this happen. So I said, yes, ma'am. And I did a bow to face like a good soldier. And I said, thank God I had one good year with Warren Christopher because I just got fired. And I went to the hotel and I just put on my workout stuff and went to the gym and worked out. I thought, man, I am finished. And then we got on the plane. We're going to Moscow next.

Starting point is 00:19:47 And I had already had a dozen 14 trips to Moscow as part of this arms control team. and we met with the foreign minister, Primakov, later became Prime Minister of Russia. And Primakov was toying with Vandal and Albright. I could see it. I was a backbencher. I was sitting far in the back as I could get. And she gets fed up with it. And she goes, I want a 15-minute break.

Starting point is 00:20:14 I team. Come with me. So her immediate staff and the ambassador scurry out. and I'm left there and there's a big fruit bowl on the conference room table and I'm picking through the fruit bowl and her chief of staff comes out. Colonel, the secretary wants to see you. And I thought, oh my God, not again. And I walk into this room where they're meeting and everybody stops talking and looks at me and my heart just sunk.

Starting point is 00:20:43 And I said, this has got to be the worst moment of my life. She said, Colonel, I understand you're on this arms control team with Deputy Secretary Talbot. I said, yes, ma'am. She's well, what's the history here? Why is this, why is he not cooperating? Why is he so adamant? I don't even remember what the topic was. I said, ma'am,

Starting point is 00:21:03 I don't know for sure. I could just give you the history. And I related where we were in the talks. And she said, that's helpful, thank you. You got on the plane, we're going to Japan. This is around the world trip. And I got as far back in that 707 as I could get. And we got to cruising altitude.

Starting point is 00:21:21 and Malin Albright comes walking down the aisle, and she comes right to me. She sits down next to me, and she puts her arm on my arm, and she says, Clemo, what kind of name is Clemo? And I said, I think it's Slovak. We don't know a lot about my grandfather. She says, well, you know, I'm Czech. She said, we should go to Prague together. And I said, ma'am, I would love that.

Starting point is 00:21:45 That was it. That was her way of saying it's all okay, all is forgiven. and for the next two years, I traveled with Manila. Wow. On all kinds of exciting trips. Shopping for a mattress can get overwhelming fast. Too many options, too many opinions, and no clear way to tell what's actually right for you. That's why Ghostbett built our online mattress quiz.

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Starting point is 00:26:19 First, in terms of leadership, a lot of people have asked me over the years, I love telling that story about Madeline Albright. I said, why don't you defend yourself? Why don't you say, but it wasn't my fault. I was asleep and that. Yeah, that's not how you are when you're a soldier. You take responsibility. Absolutely.

Starting point is 00:26:36 I mean, but a lot of people don't realize that. and for West Point cadets, you know, the three answers. Yes, sir, no, sir, no excuse, sir. So, but, you know, again, junior officers, junior leaders, people just coming in the workforce, that's kind of an eye-opener for him. The second thing I want to mention real quick is after Lieutenant General Dan Christman left become superintendent at West Point, the guy who replaced him was lieutenant general Dick Myers U.S. Air Force.

Starting point is 00:27:09 And we clicked, just as I did with Christman. And I love working for him, and we had a really good relationship. People who don't understand the joint staff wonder how you could work Army, Air Force. But that's the beauty of the joint staff, isn't it? I mean, you're bringing all your service traditions and all the pride that comes with it. but you are so much stronger as a staff when all those expertise, all that expertise and all those specialties are looking at a problem together. So the joint staff is a remarkable place.

Starting point is 00:27:47 So after two years with Man on the Knobright, I got picked up for Brigade Command. And to my astonishment, when they called me, he said, hook up and shuffle to the door. And I said, what are you talking about? And you say you go into Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and you're going to command the 18th Airborne Corps Combat Support Brigade. Whoa. And I hadn't jumped out of airplane since I was a lieutenant in Ranger's School.

Starting point is 00:28:10 That's a bit of an odd. It doesn't normally work like that, does it? Yeah. God, I'm going to say. Out of your assignments in Washington work. If somebody please tell you, I don't know. Yeah, I fought in the first Gulf War in a heavy armor brigade. and expected that that would be my fate.

Starting point is 00:28:32 But that was open, and that's where they wanted me to go. And, of course, that's where I went. And jumping out of airplanes when your young lieutenant is a lot different than when you're a colonel. So when I went for my refresher, they were just zooming through it because a lot of people would rotate through, you know, the refresher for. It's just another day on Fort Bragg, yeah. Well, time out.

Starting point is 00:28:59 I haven't jumped in 18 years or what I said. You've got to go slower than this. And I had a great sergeant major. Thank God he was wonderful. And E.D. and I had just a really good time at Fort Bragg. It wasn't a typical parachute regiment like in the 82nd. We had a hodgepodge. We had a chemical battalion and a signal battalion and EOD company.

Starting point is 00:29:28 and public affairs detachment, all kinds of hodgepodge things. We wanted them to feel they were part of a cohesive unit and we did a good job. So near the end of my tour, Sarr Major came in and his eyes were kind of, what did you do wrong? You screwed up, sir.

Starting point is 00:29:47 There's a four-star general on the phone wants to talk to you. And that, my book, is bad news. And I'm thinking, who in the heck could this be? And I've got to be General Dick Miles. who, when he left the Pentagon, putting in his fourth star to be the Pacific Air Force commander and then was the commander of NORAD and U.S. Space Command. And there were rumors he was coming back to Washington. And he said, I can remember, Clemo, the fun is over.

Starting point is 00:30:19 You're coming back to Washington. He said, don't ask. And he said, I need it there in two weeks. I said two weeks are I'm still in command for another I forgot two months he says I already called General Shinceki it's set up so he gave me four weeks and he became the vice chairman of the joint chiefs of staff the number two and by law the number two most senior officer in our pyramid our architecture and I got there and the colonel who was holding down the position was Joe Dunford, a Marine colonel, who would go on to his four stars and

Starting point is 00:31:00 become Chairman the Joint Chief of Staff in the future. And we had a two-week overlap. And it was back to the chairman suite. I was familiar with it. That first year was kind of typical. And from what I remember, we did a lot of international travel. But everybody kept asking me, about all the newspaper articles that he was in the running to be the next chairman of the Joint Chiefs. And I felt that was probably pretty good chance. I had seen him interacting with Secretary Rumsfeld, and I knew that there was enough room for the two of them in one room. And I knew virtually all of the other four-star admirals and generals who were listed as being on the short list. and, you know, General Dick Myers doesn't have that huge ego.

Starting point is 00:31:56 He's Midwestern Kansan. And that Midwest upbringing just, you know, I think was what President Bush was looking for. Secretary Rumsfeld was looking for. And he had a good relationship with the current chairman, General Hugh Shelton. Oh, yeah. So my money was on him. This is like 2000. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:32:20 No, it was 2001. And the president, really was Brumsfeld, I think. They're kind of late in announcing the nomination. So it's a funny story. If we've got time, we'll get really quick. I had worked with General. I was General Myers-Exec when he was a three-star. I was exec again as a four-star.

Starting point is 00:32:46 I knew him. He knew his family. and I knew for a while he really wanted the job. But he was always the last person mentioned in all these newspaper articles. And also in the running is Air Force General Richard B. Myers. But then there was a front page story in the Washington Times that it had down to two. And it had a picture of the chief of naval operations, Vern Clark. and again this time he got a whole paragraph also in the running Air Force Journal Dick Myers

Starting point is 00:33:22 and Jamie McIntyre was a CNN correspondent in the Pentagon at the time he comes bursting in the office no knock on the door or anything and he said we want to be the first to congratulate the general we got it right from the White House he's going to be the next chairman of the joint chiefs so I knock on the inner office door and walk in and say, hey, sir, congratulations. You're going to be the next chairman. I knew by this time he was so fed up with the process. He didn't care.

Starting point is 00:33:53 I really knew he went, yeah, I heard it before. He was beyond it, which was kind of healthy. And when McIntyre saw me talking to the general, he realized he doesn't know, which means maybe our scoop is wrong because surely he would have known by us. You would think. Yeah, he goes running back to his office.

Starting point is 00:34:15 office comes running back says we verified it with the white house correspondent he's going to be and then the phone rings and it's secretary rumsfeld and secretary our office secretary mary turner says sir mr rumsfeld wants to see you he came back and said close the door and leave me alone and he became the nominee to be the next chairman and which leads me to my book by the way yeah yeah so yeah let's get into it a little bit um you know You know, I mean, you talked a little bit about if you can tell us a little bit more detail about this position you had with the Joint Chiefs leading into, you know, September of 2001. Well, let me take you right up to it. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:35:00 Because that's primarily what I wanted to talk about and hope your listeners are interested in as we approached the 25th anniversary of that tragic event. So, you know, I think all of us were stunned by the brutality. and the suddenness and to, from the American point of view, this senseless attack. The Presidential Daily Brief that became infamous that said Osama bin Laden's intent on attacking American America in America, I was privy to read that. Just tuck it away and was well circulated in Washington, but if you have a lot of it. don't have particulars, you know, what do you do? Specifics, yeah. So on the morning of September 11, 2001, there were already big changes

Starting point is 00:35:53 taking place in the Pentagon. General Hugh Shelton was reaching the end of his four-year tenure as the chairman. And President Bush had formally nominated General Myers to take his place, and that change of responsibility was to take place in 19 days on 1 October. More importantly, General Shelton was doing his farewell tour. So he got up very early on the morning of 9-11 and went to Andrews Air Force Base and took off for Budapest, Hungary, to meet with all the defense chiefs in NATO. By law, the Goldwater Nichols Act of 1986, when the chairman's out of the country, the vice chairman is automatically the acting chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. So as events began to unfold on 9-11, General Shelton was in the air over the Atlantic Ocean. General Myers, who was just days away from being sworn in his chairman, was left behind back in Washington.

Starting point is 00:36:54 Because he still had to go through his confirmation hearing in three days, he was scheduled for a series of courtesy calls with senators on Capitol Hill. normally I would go with him for meetings, take notes, and do taskings when I got back. But he said, I'll just take my end to camp and you could stay back in the office. So he left for Capitol Hill. And our office was in the E-ring of the Pentagon facing the Potomac River. So I could see the Washington Monument. Big windows, beautiful, rare privilege to have a window like that in the Pentagon. I always kept the television on mute, and when I looked up from my desk, there was the World Trade Center smoking.

Starting point is 00:37:43 So it turned on to sound, and they were speculating that it was a small plane or some air control mishap. And I wanted to believe that, Jack. I was in denial. I knew something was wrong. I knew there was more to it than this. denial prevented me from picking up a phone, from calling either the general or our command center. I just wanted to believe. And I started to get worried about the possibility of flying glass from our picture window.

Starting point is 00:38:22 So I asked Mary Turner, our scheduler, to close the heavy draperies, thinking, just in case there's a bomb that goes off. I couldn't imagine that a jetliner was barreling toward us at. that very minute. And then suddenly, the red switch rang on the left side of my desk. And the red switches, people would call it a hotline. It's the global secure telephone conferencing system that connects the White House, the Pentagon, and all our major commands around the world. And it's a push-button phone. The top left is POTUS. So if you punch it, it rings in the oval office. And it bleats. And it started bleeding. And I picked up the red receiver and on the other end was General Ralph Ed Everhart,

Starting point is 00:39:07 the commanding general of NORAD, calling from Colorado. He said, Colonel, get General Myers on the phone. I said, sir, he's on Capitol Hill. He said, this is urgent. Get him to a phone. I need to talk to him immediately. So I hung up. The red switch reached over to the other side of my desk,

Starting point is 00:39:24 picked up my unsecure phone, and called Captain Chris Donoghue, an Army Green Beret. Now, Chris is an unflappable. intense, just a tough soldier and had no idea that New York City was under attack. I said, Chris, get the old man on the phone, put him on. He says, I can't. I said, what do you mean you can't? He's in with the senator.

Starting point is 00:39:50 I said, get in there. He said, you want me to walk in? I said, get General Myers on the phone. General Myers came on the phone. I said, sir, do you know what happened in New York? He said, the senator's staff just inform us. We just turned on the television. I said, Everhart needs you right now.

Starting point is 00:40:03 Can you get back to the Pentagon? He said, I'll be there in 15 minutes. I'll call General Everhart from my sedan. So I hung up the phone. Now, your combat veteran like I am, Jack, you know that sometimes things that happen a long time ago still trigger emotions and something you see or smell or hear.

Starting point is 00:40:24 And I'm still haunted by the sound of what happened next because the red switch rang again. And unlike the point-to-point red switch call with NORAD, this was a conference call being built by the White House Situation Room. And because you're on a top secret line and you open it to various people, there's an echo chamber. If you were going to make a movie, you would add this sound effect for drama. So the White House operator said, stand by for a significant event conference. and he started to patch leaders from around Washington into the call, the head of the FBI, the head of the CIA.

Starting point is 00:41:07 And he said, all parties are on the line standby, and I thought Condoleez-Rice must be coming on. But it was General Eberhard from NORAD. And he said, I can remember exactly what he said. We have several airplanes on radar, and unknown number of them have been hijacked. I pulled out my pad and started taking notes. two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base and Massachusetts Specter to New York City.

Starting point is 00:41:33 American Airlines Flight 11 confirmed hijack. It's headed to Washington. Well, this in fact was erroneous information. Flight 11 had already hit the North Tower, the World Trade Center, 45 minutes earlier. That was emblematic of all the chaos and confusion we were going to wrestle through. And Flight 11's misidentification would cause ripple effect. throughout that morning. Now about this time, you know, I'm intensely taking notes and Mary Turner, our scheduler, starts to wave at me. And I'm thinking, can't she see this is important?

Starting point is 00:42:10 And she has a phone in her hand and she starts waving it. She says, it's General Shelton, the chairman. He's calling from his airplane. He wants to talk to you now. So I kept the red switch in my left ear. I picked up the on secure phone, put it to my right here. Now, you may not remember General Shelton, but he is a six-foot-five-inch square-jawed, hard-bidden-paired trooper. Yes. And he does not suffer fools. And so what that is going on back there? And I said, sir, I'm on the red switch with NORAD and the White House of relay information.

Starting point is 00:42:48 So I'm listening, relaying information focused on these two calls when Mary Turner jumps up and says the billing moved. And suddenly there's pandemonium outside her door. People screaming and yelling running down the corridor. I said, Mary, close the door I can't hear. I was just so focused. I didn't feel the building shutter. And finally, after a minute, the watch officer from inside the Pentagon. The phone lines continued to work even after the...

Starting point is 00:43:15 So on the Red Switch from inside the National Military Command Center, which is in the inner rings of the Pentagon, the watch officer broke into the Red Switch call and said The Pentagon's been hit by an airplane. Wow. Smoke coming. So as calmly as I could, I took a deep breath and relayed the information to General Shelton. I could hear him consulting with his staff on the plane and then the line dropped.

Starting point is 00:43:41 And seconds later, General Myers called. And he was coming over the 14th Street Bridge over the Potomac River. He could see the smoke rising up. He asked if we were okay. And I said, yes, sir. He said, I'm three minutes out. Meet me at the river entrance. So I put down both receivers, and I grabbed Mary, and we made our way into the hallway, and people were coming out.

Starting point is 00:44:02 But what amazed me, Jack, was in the few minutes from Impact. The Pentagon, the largest office building in the world is 17 miles of corridors. We are on the north side of the building, and the plane hit on the west side, but it was already filling with smoke. So we joined the crush of people coming down the stairs. General Myers, Sedan, pulled up. He grabbed my arm. We made our way through the crowds back up the stairs. And two uniform security guards half-heartedly stopped us and said,

Starting point is 00:44:34 General, we're not allowed to let anybody in. It's not safe. We pushed our way past these well-intentioned officers. We made our way into the inner rings of the Pentagon, the National Military Command Center. And, you know, this is a Cold War command center. And it looks like it. It's a great movie set.

Starting point is 00:44:52 Like something from Dr. Strangell. Exactly. It's a rabbit's worn of dead-end corridors and cubicle farms, televisions hanging from the ceiling. There's a two-story deck you could imagine. And the watch officer or the chief of operations can stand on the deck and see everything going on below him. Inside, at least as it was configured in 2001, there's a self-contained conference room. It's about the size of a conference room. This is where the deputy director of operations maintained the 20, 24-hour watch. We call it the DDO shack. It was part of the nuclear node for the event of a nuclear war. This would be one of the critical nodes in Washington. It had its own circulations. So when we entered, we walked past all these soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, and the outer portions of the NMCs, was a haze of acrid smoke filling the NMC. They were all at their stations doing what they're supposed to do. When you walk into the DECC. B.D. Oshack must have been a dozen or more television screens all showing the World Trade Center,

Starting point is 00:45:59 just like in a TV control room. And then on the far right, there's a huge screen that shows the track of our top secret intelligence satellites. The center is a long conference table with Rich Wood's telephones. Miraculously, General Myers had been the NORAD commander just prior to that assignment as the vice chairman. So he understood the air of defense. scenario better than anybody in Washington. And he began this conversation with the Nolrat commander General Everhardt. He said, Ed, we don't have

Starting point is 00:46:32 ROE to shoot down as civilian airliner, do we? Rules of engagement, ROE. And Eberhard said, no, sir, we don't. He said, that's first order of business. So what they're doing, and you appreciate this, this is a modified

Starting point is 00:46:48 mission analysis, condensed mission analysis, to the guidance that we need to do. Did they need the president to weigh in on that? We're going to talk about that. And what they wanted to do was shorten the decision loop. They didn't want to put the burden of making the decision to shoot on the shoulders of a single fighter pilot. But they didn't want to have that pilot have to go through layers of command leading all the way back to Washington. So they delegated the command authority to a two-star general, Larry Arnold, at the northeast

Starting point is 00:47:25 regional NORAD Center in Rome, New York. It's an old Air Force base up there. So he had the authority to give that command. Now, as NORAD began to disseminate the rules of engagement, the famous fog of war started to descend on us because unknown to us, the FAA and the Secret Service in Washington had a hotline between the control tower at Reagan National Airport across the Potomac River and the Secret Service headquarters in the White House, or their command center in the White House. And the FAA called the Secret Service and said, we have a flight on radar we know is coming to Washington. We know

Starting point is 00:48:10 it's hijacked. Flight 93, which would eventually crash in Pennsylvania. So the Secret Service, took the initiative to call the Air National Guard commander at Andrews Air Force Base and tell him scramble jet aircraft. Secret Service can't give orders to the past. Jack? So at the time is Brigadier General, Worley. And he said, I don't take orders from the Secret Service. And you can imagine what, I don't know exactly what the agent said.

Starting point is 00:48:40 Listen, can't you see what's happening on CNN? This is an attack. And he said, I can't take orders from you. I need someone in authority to give me the authority. And they went back and forth. I don't know how many minutes. But it's documented. Finally, General Worley relented.

Starting point is 00:48:58 And unlike the NORAD fighters, which are stationed around the nation on strip alert, you know, these were National Guard fighters. They had a mission, but not equipped like NORAD and not complete strip alert, not armed with the same kind of weapon systems. So now they're spinning up. And General, I'm sorry, Vice President Cheney was advised by the Secret Service that they've got pilots that are going to be in the air shortly from Andrews Air Force Base. And he gave the authority to go to weapons free, meaning the pilots can fire at their own discretion. Not knowing, of course, that NORAD at different rules of engagement, these were on different radio frequencies coming out of Langley Air Force Base in Southern Virginia.

Starting point is 00:49:45 in a different chain of command. And these two flights coming from different Air Force bases had no idea that the others were in the air. They couldn't communicate. And those communication problems were not solved even when they finally realized that somewhere up above us is another flight of F-16. Just another kind of example of the chaos.

Starting point is 00:50:11 And in terms of leadership, and at the end of each chapter, Jack of my book, I have leadership observations. At the end of this chapter, I talk about where leaders should be to command and to control, two different things. So those fighters coming out of NORAD's Langley Air Force Base Control Center did exactly what they're trained to do. And that's what we like to say. Fight the way you train and train the way you intend to fight. They took off and headed due east over the Atlantic Ocean and kept going for 60 miles over the Atlantic Ocean because that's what they were trained to do. Even though they all knew that the World Trade Centers had been hit by commercial aircraft.

Starting point is 00:51:03 But they were told and they were trained to always get out of the busy North South commercial airline corridor. You never break the sound barrier over land. get over the ocean, and your threat is to look for Russian-launched cruise missiles. When they had their after-action review, the pilots really couldn't articulate why they didn't click. You know, things click and they head to Washington. I think there's another reason, and this is my own supposition, which I talk about in the book. Two F-16s were on strip alert, but three F-16s, two. F-16s took off from Langley Air Force Base.

Starting point is 00:51:44 Two or three jet fighters better than two. In this case, I'm not sure, because the third fighter was piloted by the supervisor of flight, whose job was to be in the NORAD control center. He was the only commission officer in the control center. But he wanted to lead his fighter pilots on a real mission, and I don't blame them. That's what I wanted to do as an infantry. officer. That's what the firefighters wanted to do to be at the point of impact, the point of action. But I wonder if he had stayed in the control center, his place of duty, would he have the

Starting point is 00:52:27 situational awareness to say, okay, hit your afterburners, get to Washington now instead of wandering out over the Atlantic Ocean? So those are the kind of leadership questions, you know, I pose at the end of each chapter. Now, at 958, the South Tower, the World Trade Center collapsed, and I could remember watching it on these big screens that were in the DDO Shack. And I was mesmerized. It was, I realized what was happening in real time could change the world. And I don't know how many seconds or minutes seemed short. I was watching this. fixated on it. Now, like every, unlike everybody else in the National Military Command Center, I didn't have a job.

Starting point is 00:53:18 Everybody else had specific duties. My only job was to be with General Myers as his exec. And when I turned around from the television screens, he was gone. And it's the only time during the day that I panicked. I couldn't imagine where he was. I screamed out of the DDO shack through the NF. CC out into the main quarters of the Pentagon. The evacuation siren and recording were still blaring. It's just so annoying. It just filled with this accurate smoke. I ran to our office and

Starting point is 00:53:51 some things, if I hadn't taken notes, I wouldn't remember, but some things I remember. I remember standing in the center of our office. It was empty. And I thought, where is he? And then it hit me. Rumsfeld. He must have been looking for Secretary of Rumsfeld. So I ran up the staircase outside our door and he was general Myers is coming out of secretary rumsfeld's office and um he said he's not here i said sir we've got to get back to the nmcc there's nobody at charge so we jogged back down to the nmccc and now the fog of war was was hitting us again these false reports of a bomb blast at the state department and i should mention that you know this is a command and control issue also is that your talk your operations

Starting point is 00:54:39 Center, so to speak, is there in the Pentagon. But the Pentagon has come under attack, and that has to be pulling everyone in two directions as well. Yeah, I'm going to talk about that in a second. That's a really, really strategic point. Secretary Rumsfeld came into the NMCC about that point. He had initially rushed out to look at the damage to the Pentagon. It was an iconic picture of him.

Starting point is 00:55:06 It's a great book by a guy named Graf called The Only plane in the sky. And there's a picture of Rumsfeld carrying a stretcher out of the burning Pentagon. Very dramatic. Just like that fighter pilot wanted to lead from the front and the firefighters, you know, he wanted to be there. But for 30 minutes, he was out of communication. Our Secretary of Defense, a member of the National or the military chain of command, could not be reached. His security detail, you know, with their earpieces, could hear people calling for them, but the communication systems were overwhelmed and no one could hear their replies.

Starting point is 00:55:47 I remember he described the fiery scene and what had happened, but he was calm and cool as everyone was. And we got down to business. General Myers updated him on the rules of engagement, and he called Vice President Cheney. and I got to work for Vice President Cheney after this assignment in the Pentagon after a year and a half and I asked the vice president what had happened that day because I had seen the other half of it and he told me about the confusion the rule I actually he told me about the rules of engagement and knowing what I knew about the rules of engagement we issued I

Starting point is 00:56:30 finally put two and two together and understood you know they were talking past Right, right. He said when the Secret Service got that call from the FAA, his protective detail burst into his office, reached behind him, picked him up by his belt, and had carried him down to the Pioch, the PEOC, the Presidential Emergency Operation Center. Was he in the White House? Yes. Okay. And President Bush was in the air, I believe. That's right.

Starting point is 00:56:55 President Bush was in Florida when the first plane hit. So they pretty much carried them down to the bunker underneath the White House. And now President Bush is getting very frustrated. We had all these assumptions that Air Force One is the flying White House, but the communication links were not as good as they could have been. He couldn't get television reception. So he landed initially at an Air Force Base in Louisiana, and then they decided the safest place to go.

Starting point is 00:57:28 Smartest place would be off at Air Force Base, our Strategic Command Headquarters. There they've got great communications and they've got an underground bunker. It's in the center of the country, far from any overseas threat. So when he landed, President Bush asked to speak to key leaders in Washington. So we had to leave the DDO shack and go to a skiff, a sensitive compartmented information facility, which for your view is simply a soundproof room. And it's just big enough for six or seven people, but it's part of the NMCC.

Starting point is 00:58:02 architecture. It's just not in the DDO shack. So when we walked out, that haze of smoke is still there. There's our sailors, soldiers, airmen, Marines still at work. I'm so proud of them. It was Secretary Rumsfeld, General Myers, the chief counsel of the Department of Defense, Tori Clark, the spokesperson for the Defense Department. My counterpart, Vice Admiral Ed G. and Bostiani, who is the military assistant to Secretary Rumsfeld. And I remember closing the door to the skiff, which is about this thick, and sealing it. And I got in the back of the room next to the admiral. And it was a remarkable conversation with the president.

Starting point is 00:58:49 President Bush came on. He was at his best. And I remember his exact words were, I want everyone who could hear my voice on this call to know that no faceless thugs will hold our country at bay. I want you to find out who did this. I want you to track them down and I want you to destroy them. Of course, we assumed it was Osama bin Laden, but we weren't sure. Now, someone on the conference call outside the Pentagon said, fuck Ben Laden.

Starting point is 00:59:14 And President Bush came right back on. He said, now, wait a minute. First get the facts. Second, clean up your language. And that's exactly what happened. It broke the tension on the call. Bush's instincts were. and perfect and you know we all cracked a smile and chuckled but as the phone call went on

Starting point is 00:59:36 i got sick i thought i was going to pass out and my head was foggy and and i had a headache and to make things worse admiral g and bostiani was just yapping in my ear and i just thought i could remember thinking why you please shut up and finally grabbed my arm he said colonel colonel says you don't understand. I'm a submarine captain. There's no oxygen in this room. It's filled with carbon dioxide. And I said, are you sick? He said, yeah. He said, come with me. So we skirted around the table. We got out of the room. He said, look, we got to get to an alternate command site. He said, let's go to the Navy. Get everybody out. We'll go to the Navy Operation Center. I said, Admiral, that's where the plane hit. And they lost everybody. All the Navy casualties that day were from

Starting point is 01:00:29 the Navy operations center. I said, sir, I've been on the phone several times with the Army Ops Center. It's in the basement. He said, okay, we better make sure we could get there. I'm going to do a recon, he said, and I want you to go find an air monitor and see how bad the air quality is. So he takes off, and I'm standing there thinking, an air monitor. They have air monitors and submarines, but where am I going to find an air monitor in the

Starting point is 01:00:53 Pentagon? So I did what every good infantry colonel would do. I called for my captain. Cap Donahue. go find an air monitor. And Chris Donagio looks at me and didn't ask, what's an air monitor? Where can I find one? He said, yes, sir.

Starting point is 01:01:08 And took off. A few minutes later, the Admiral comes back, shaking his head. He said, we're trapped. They're trapped in the basement. The corridors are blanketed with the thickest black smoke you can imagine. Yeah, jet fuel. Yeah. And the burning of things inside the Pentagon.

Starting point is 01:01:28 Yep. Yep. So we turned around and here comes Captain Donnygoo with the Arlington County Fire Department Air Quality Expert. He not only found an air quality expert, but he found the guy who could use it. And so he set him to work. The firefighter came back and said, look, in the outer portions of this command center, you're at 33% oxygen.

Starting point is 01:01:48 But in that little soundproof room, you're at 16%. You can't survive at 13%. You need to leave. So he said, also, I remember he said that the corridors are filled with carbon monoxide, not carbon dioxide, which is what we were suffering from, carbon monoxide and heavy metals. Right. So we were in danger.

Starting point is 01:02:10 Now, again, the fog of war, the fire chief, the incident commander, the deputy fire chief of Arlington County, had been told the Pentagon was evacuated completely of anybody alive. So with the fires raging and they would burn for three days, he shut down the air handling units. We didn't know that. So the admiral and I went back in the skiff and interrupted Secretary Rumsfeld and General Myers and said, sir, the air quality is bad. The fire department told us we need to evacuate. And General Myers, like a good troop commander, you know, said we probably got up to 20 people in here. Mr. Secretary, they're not going to leave until you do.

Starting point is 01:02:49 And Rumsfeld shook his head and said, we cannot leave. This is the symbol of America's military power. We have got to stay. And then he looked at the Admiral and me, said, you two, get the word out. Tomorrow is a workday at the Pentagon. Everybody reports for duty as normal at 830. Wow. A fire chief knew the fire was not going to be out the next day.

Starting point is 01:03:11 And the FBI considered the whole building of crimes. Yeah. But Rumsfeld would not be denied. So the Admiral said, sir, we've got an alternate place in OSD, Office of Secretary of Defense. we can move there. We still got comms. We need to get out of this room. So something significant happens here. So we're leaving the skiff and the six of us are walking through the NMC and Rumsfeld stops us in our tracks. What haven't we thought of yet? What can the enemy do next? And General Myers said NBC, nuclear biological or chemical attack and he ordered the C-briff units down Camp Lejeune

Starting point is 01:03:54 to be preposition outside of New York and Washington. So at the end of this chapter, I talk about a leader's instincts. You can't, we were getting lethargic. Maybe it was from the carbon dioxide, lack of oxygen. But we were sleepwalking, and Rumsfeld had the sense to wake us up. Now, you can't write that in an SOP. And you get to this point, shout out something. It's just what a leader instinctively knows has to be done.

Starting point is 01:04:24 And so I asked people, leaders, to think about that and tuck that away. So we went to a different part of the command center, and the secretary says, we need to raise our alert level. We raised our force protection level already, but he said we need to go to DefCon 3, which is a dramatic decision, and some historians have questioned the wisdom of it. Because that put all of our... That was done to put our air defenses on like full alert, right? Yes, but when you go to DefCon 3, it also alerts our nuclear forces. Yes.

Starting point is 01:05:00 And the Russians were conducting drills in the Bering Sea area near Alaska, which made things a little dicey. The Russians did agree to stop. I should point that out. But another interesting thing here, because someone, just as you said, you know, what has to be decided by the president. The general counsel for the defense department, Jim Haines said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I don't know if you have the authority to do it. And this is the days before digitization and smartphones. So a colonel in the command center picked out a three ring binder and flipped through it and it was all there and said, Mr. Secretary, you have the authority

Starting point is 01:05:46 to raise the defecon level. And he did. And that put it all of our military forces around the world at a higher level. About 4 p.m. We went outside to look at the crash site. And I could remember my heart beating. Just thinking about what I was going to see when I rounded that last corner. And when I came around the corner, the first thing I saw was a debris field. Someone said it was like confetti.

Starting point is 01:06:16 It was just bits and pieces of American Airlines Flight 77. the ground. Just one big piece I could see. The rest is shreds. Were you guys aware, Flight 93 by this point? Yeah. Gone down in Pennsylvania. And I don't know if there's ever been like an official weighing in on it, but I mean, we suspect that they were headed to the White House, right? I don't think anybody knows. I think everybody agrees that was headed to Washington. That's a great question, Jack. Two things I want to point out. First, Around 10 a.m., there was an alert that went out from the FAA, unknown aircraft approaching five miles from Washington.

Starting point is 01:07:01 So when that alert went out because of flight 93, the incident commander, Chief Schwartz, pulled all of his first responders out of the building to get away from the Pentagon. In a group of soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines who had left the Pentagon, watched this. and they were indignant and said, we're going in. And they got together and started marching to get back in the building and rescue their comrades. If the firefighters weren't going to do it, they were going to do it. The firefighters stopped them. It's a great quote from one of them.

Starting point is 01:07:41 I've seen a video of it. He said, there's no place for you in there. You don't know what's in there. You're not equipped. You're not trained. you will be a victim in minutes. So now this is a standoff. And I call it the clash of cultures.

Starting point is 01:07:56 You know, here are soldiers. They're used to taking orders from authority. And the firefighters are clearly in the authority in this situation. But these are young men and women trained with the ethos of never leaving anybody behind, risk-taking. And they were going to go in. And then finally, you know, the, the alert kept coming. Airplane approaching, airplane approaching, and everybody realized they need to get back. But those were blips on radar from the helicopters, part of the cog.

Starting point is 01:08:32 The continuity of government plan, the COG, and they were coming in to ferry key leaders from Washington to alternate command sites. Right, right. For the Pentagon, its site are well outside the Beltway. Was it, Raven Rock? Yeah, so Raven Rock. And so a lot's been written about this. First, it worked the way it was planned in terms of the launch. Steve Hadley was a deputy national security advisor, triggered the cog.

Starting point is 01:09:06 The helicopters were coming out of Andrews, maybe also out of Fort Belvoir. They had the roots. Tragically, one of those routes that was practiced was that 2000 24 helicopter that hit that commercial. The Black Hawk. Yeah. Black Hawk that hit that airliner coming in to Reagan National Airport in 2024. But that's what they were rehearsing.

Starting point is 01:09:29 And the thing that didn't go according to plan, and I didn't say didn't work because I have a different opinion about this than some people, is none of the key principles wanted to leave. Right. The only one in the chain of presidential succession who did was Dennis Hastert, who was then Speaker of the House. He got on a helicopter and went to where the House has their alternate command site. And everybody else refused to lead in the center deputies.

Starting point is 01:09:59 There is a great quote from Rumsfeld's autobiography, knowns and unknowns, where Paul Wolfowitz's deputy defense secretary comes in and I remember him walking in. I could see it clearly. He said, you know, Mr. Secretary, you're. supposed to leave and go to SID-R. And he said, I'm not going to Sight-R. That's what deputies are for. You're going to Sight-R. And he put him on the helicopter to go out there.

Starting point is 01:10:25 So there's a reporter who bemoans the fact, and he wrote a great book called On That Day, a really good book. He said, you know, we failed in that regard. But I think leaders made the right decision. Rumsfeld, in hindsight, you know, it's easier to say airplane could have hit the Pentagon and we could have lost Brumsfeld as well. But the comms aren't as good. Everything's better inside Washington. So it seemed at the point that he made

Starting point is 01:10:57 that decision. So let me take you back outside. Yeah, please. Dr. John Baxter, U.S. Air Force colonel and physician, who's General Myers physician and mine, came up and described the triage his team had been providing and it was remarkable. And I remember very well he described the horrible burns of a woman whose hands and face were severely burned. And he pumped her with morphine, put her on a helicopter, they took her to the Washington burn center. I couldn't know it at the time, of course, but four days later, my mom and dad called me from upstate New York. And that was my high school classmate. Whoa. Louise Rogers. And the tragedy is not only, of course, her injuries, but it was her first day working in the Pentagon.

Starting point is 01:11:49 She just got a new job as a civilian working in HR, and they were listening to the radio with her office mate when the plane hit. She survived, you know, life-changing wounds. My wife, E.D. and I visited her at the burn center, just a strong woman. and she's living in upstate New York again. But just a reminder, this is not just, you know, tragedy for a nation. It's a tragedy on such a individual human scale. The fire chief and the chief of security came up to us.

Starting point is 01:12:28 And I remember being shocked that the windows on either side of this deep gash, which was still smoking, were still intact. And the security chief. John Jester said, you know, we were very lucky, Mr. Secretary, because out of the five wedges is the Pentagon, this is the only wedge that had been remodeled. The other four are slated for remodeling. But because of that, you could see through the wreckage, there are steel girders. There are no steel girders on the other four sections. They held for 32 minutes and allowed

Starting point is 01:13:00 many people to escape. But every action has its unintended consequences. Those were reinforced ballistic glass windows this thick. And I actually have a piece that tell you how I got it. It's from the embassy, actually, when we replaced our embassy glass. It's about eight inches thick. And they saved untold damage debris flying, but because those windows held in place, that kinetic energy was trapped. So all that explosive force shot towards the outside. side bounced off those ballistic windows and back inside the Pentagon and they raced as fireballs through the corridors and the passageways of the Pentagon. The firefighters arrived and they could not break the windows to vent the smoke and the heat.

Starting point is 01:13:56 We went back inside and there was a major, army major, bloodied uniform, bandaged, you know, arm in a sling and he described the blackness and tried. and trying to help people escape. And the souls of his shoes had started to melt, that fire was so intense. Now, about this time, my counterpart, General Hugh Shelton, the chairman's exec, called. We had served together before I knew him well.

Starting point is 01:14:24 Doug Lute. Army colonel at the time, retarded as a three-star, like me, became the United States ambassador. He was our ambassador to NATO. So we've got quite a history. and he called from General Shelton's airplane, still over the Atlantic Ocean. He said, Matt, we finally got permission to come back to Washington. I said, I thought you'd be here by now.

Starting point is 01:14:45 He said, it's just everything's closed, all the airspace. He said, where do you want General Shelton to go? So I saw Rumsfeld and Myers conversing, and I interrupted them. And I said, sir, I've got General Shelton's exec on the phone. Where do you want him to go? He's coming back to Washington. And they turned to me and in unison said, SIDAR.

Starting point is 01:15:07 Surprised me. I said, Sider. They said, Sider. I said, Doug, Scyd R. That was very sheepish when I said this. He said, Sider, I said, yes, sir. And I hung up and I knew General Shelton would not be happy. He's going to hit the roof.

Starting point is 01:15:25 He's still the chairman that joined Chiefs of Staff for 19 days. He's a war horse. but it raises an interesting question. You know, where do you want everybody to be? You got Rumsfeld and Myers there. Myers had been in charge all morning. He had the continuity of what was happening. More importantly, he had been a NORAD commander until recently,

Starting point is 01:15:46 and he understood the air defense scenario better than anybody in Washington. And in 19 days, you'd be the next chairman. On the other hand, you want Shelton, Myers, and Rumsfeld there at the same time, Or you displace Myers to Sider. You know, it was a tough decision. As I understand continuity of government, it can be used for different things as it was on 9-11. It could be used, you know, when there's a pandemic, for instance. But it was designed really to keep the United States government functional during a nuclear exchange.

Starting point is 01:16:18 But this wasn't that, right? So America was under attack. But to take all those key leaders and to sequester them in CIDAR, I think would have been a huge. mistake. Well, of course we have the benefit of high side. Yeah, for sure. In my book, I can tell you the exact time, but at one point, General Myers turned to me and said, Matt, call off at Air Force Base Strategic Command and they have them launched the NAOC, the National

Starting point is 01:16:46 Airborne Operations Center. That's the big. The doomsday plane. That's what they call it. The doomsday plane. And there's more than one, and one was sitting in Andrews Air Force Base and was launched. Why? We didn't know what would happen at that point in the morning.

Starting point is 01:17:02 But there was also, in addition to COG, the continuity of government plan, there's the COP, the continuity of operations plan that every federal agency has for emergencies and crises below existential threat to the nation. So the COOP plan is different, very similar in some ways, but different. But yes, the cog is part of that survival of the nation plan, very much so. So things are starting to quiet down around six or so, as I remember, and the adrenaline's starting to fade. And there's still, you know, a little buzz in the National Military Command Center. I look up, and there standing in the door is General Hugh Shelton. He did not go to Cydar.

Starting point is 01:17:57 I know we wouldn't. And talk about leadership again. So when a leader walks into a room, the chemistry should change, the whole dynamic. And for an awkward few seconds, Shelton's standing there because nobody sees him. So in my best command voice, I said, gentlemen, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. And everybody turns around and looks at me like, what are you talking about? They're standing next to Myers. Myers have been in charge all morning.

Starting point is 01:18:26 and then General Shelton strode in the room that big iron jaw set. There's this look of reproach, even anger on his face. And I remember he looked, the whole room as just silent, standing in attention. And he went to Vice Admiral Tom Wilson, who was the director of the Defense Intelligence Agency. He said, Tom, did we have any squeaks on this at all? and Admiral Wilson, who interestingly, was on Navy Hill, for those familiar with Navy Hill at the time, it's been demolished now, but it sits above the Pentagon or did. And in his office up there, he watched Flight 77 plow into the Pentagon. That's an aside.

Starting point is 01:19:13 So Admiral Wilson said, General, you know, we did have some reports of some suspicious possible bad guys taking Jumbojet training a few months ago. stunning. So we had bits and pieces. I think there's an FBI agent, a woman who pieced this together and tried to get the attention of people, but, you know, we had failed. So President Bush, after Condoleezza Rice and Vice President Cheney saying, please, Mr. President, don't come back to Washington yet, said, I'm coming. And landed, I think before 7 p.m. at Andrews. Air Force Base. and was going to make an address to the nation at 8.30 p.m. So General Shelton and Secretary Rumsfeld went to the White House for that event. And before he left, General Shelton told General Myers,

Starting point is 01:20:11 when I get back, I want the directors of the joint staff to gather in my office, or not my office in our conference room. We're going to have a meeting. directors of joint staff are three stars plus the vice chairman is four star and i think we all remember bits and pieces of president bush's uh addressed to the world not just the nation general sheltt came back and uh going back to that chapter in the book and the leadership's observations i make jack everything changed it's just remarkable that's what you as leader must do when you're the leader. When he walked into that room at about 10 p.m., the whole dynamic changed. You don't want to go

Starting point is 01:21:00 to sea with a ship captain who's afraid of rough waters or flying an airplane with a pilot who's afraid of turbulence. And you don't want to go to war with someone who's not ready to fight, and Shelton was ready for a fight. He was positive. He was brimming with confidence. He said, we're going to war, and this is not going to be any pinpricks. And we were just, just a turnaround. It just turned everything around from being on our heels, back heels. Right, feeling helpless. That's the day.

Starting point is 01:21:33 He came back and we were ready to look to the future and take the initiative. So, you know, we met for a couple hours. After that, it was around midnight, General Myers and I went back to the office. he sat down at his desk and he said we got a big day ahead of us he said let's go home so edie and i and i haven't talked about eating i should do that we lived in arlington virginia at the time just a few minutes from the pentagon our son was in middle school um and the students had been told that the pentagon was under attack and he had images of terrorists with machine guns roaming the quarters of the Pentagon

Starting point is 01:22:18 and wasn't sure what had happened, but panicked parents in the area were picking kids up. Edie is a retired Army nurse. She knows her way around the Army. She thought when she heard the news on the radio, I'll go to Fort Meyer next to the Pentagon where General Myers had his quarters because she's good friends with Mary Jo Myers, his wife,

Starting point is 01:22:43 and she would get the best information. But unlike the friendly military police at the gates, they were bristling with armed weapons and they were geared up. And when she said she wanted to go to vice chairman's house, after she showed her ID card, they just put her over there. And they were very tense and suspicious. And she said, I think I should leave. So she went to her son's middle school. And when he saw Eadie in the hallway, our son, you know, thought the worst. So I talk a lot in the book about, you know, what you did?

Starting point is 01:23:13 And you called your wife by this point? So obvious question. After the World Trade Centers were hit, I called her and said, turn on the news. I don't have time to talk. But Mary Turner, our scheduler, got on one of the helicopters to CIDAR, and had the good sense to call everybody on our staff, including Mrs. Myers and eating, and so she knew we were safe.

Starting point is 01:23:40 So when I got home around midnight, you know, the house was dark, but I opened the door and he was standing right there. We just embraced and she said, you stink of smoke. The next morning, it's just remarkable. I got there in the book, Jack, I described a typical day on the joint staff, at least for high-level staff. You know, I was in my desk at my seat at 515 every day,

Starting point is 01:24:10 not driving to work, not getting coffee. I was going through the message traffic from over. night arranging desk for General Myers with all the key cables. He arrived at 615. We went through the traffic, talked about the day to come. 630, the CIA briefer arrived with the president's daily brief, the PDB. Same briefing given an Oval Office. That lasted for 30 minutes. At 7 a.m., the directors of the joint staff came to the conference room. We had an hour meeting with the joint staff directors at 8 a.m., Secretary Rumsfeld met with the vice chairman and chairman for an hour. So by 9 a.m., there's an old army recruiting TV commercial said by 9 a.m.,

Starting point is 01:24:54 you've done more as a soldier than most people do an entire day, which was absolutely true. But when I was sitting at my desk at 515, two teams of hijackers were leaving their motel rooms, one in Laurel, Maryland, and one in Herndon, Virginia, and they were driving. to Dulles Airport. And when General Myers was going at 815 to Capitol Hill, they were boarding Flight 77. So I described in the book, I just juxtapose the hijackers and what we were doing at those different points of the day. And so the next morning when I got there, I got there at a little before five. And, you know, it's less than 24 hours. And there were, no police barricades, no yellow tape, just a black corridor. And I started walking down the corridor

Starting point is 01:25:49 and it got blacker and blacker and blacker and blacker and didn't have a light. And it just spooked me finally. It couldn't go any farther. I couldn't see. It was wet. And I just knew there were probably my comrades down there. And went back to the office. General Myers came early at 830 like everybody was supposed to they wouldn't allow anybody parked to park in the pentagon parking lot so all the pentagon employees parked downtown and came over the the potomac river bridges this great story and and i'm going to tie this all together now two vignettes first uh i think it was the day after maybe it was two days after we got all these maps out of Afghanistan and we were talking about basing rights and with

Starting point is 01:26:48 the J5 general John Abizaid and the J3 and the vice chairman and somebody said well you know Kyrgyzstan and it was Bekistan and I knew about Pakistan and I knew about Afghanistan and I knew very little about Central Asia the five stands And there's this 500-mile border with Turkmenistan. So I naively said, well, gee, what about Turkmenistan? And General Abbasid looked at me and said, you fuck a crazy mat, that place is an enigma. He said, it's run by this egomaniac whose statue rotates with the sun, made a gold. And it says, no way we're going to go there.

Starting point is 01:27:35 And that's the first time I ever heard of Turkmenistan. 18 years later, I was the ambassador. So that's one way of wrapping this up. That's three ways. The second is my wife, not only a retired major in the Army, but she was a community health nurse. And so dealt with Army families on a one-to-one basis. And she volunteered to work for Lieutenant General John Van Allstein,

Starting point is 01:28:02 who was a remarkable leader. And they set up banks of phones and meeting rooms. to welcome to help the families of those who lost their loved ones in the Pentagon attack. And Edie worked at phone banks and met with people. And, you know, it was a tough, tough duty. But she was well equipped to do it. I'm really proud of her. And then the final story.

Starting point is 01:28:37 So to bring this all full circle. I was the ambassador to Turkmenistan in 2021 when Kabul felt and was testimony to my staff, the embassy staff, the diplomats and our defense attachate team. That we had built a relationship with Turkmenistan. It had changed a lot in 18 years. So when the planes were evacuating people out of Kabul, I went to the foreign minister on a Sunday afternoon and said, can we get landing rights and overflight rights and refueling rights and the ability to transload people so the planes can leave fully loaded and refuel and crossload people inside Turkmenistan. And without hesitation, the relationship I had one of them was so good. He said, yes, no publicity. I don't want it quiet, but yes, you can do it.

Starting point is 01:29:38 You know, it's a crisis. The remarkable thing is, you know, I sent my defense at a Shea team, my political officer out to this little airport near the Afghan border. Actually, there's a brand-new airport for civilian use. And they allowed us to set up there. And we were able to do the things that we asked, to do and I'm really proud of the team. The last flight out of Kabul, of course, is all chaos.

Starting point is 01:30:09 And the commanding general of the 82nd Airborne Division is famously the last man to get on that plane. Major General later to become four-star General Christontiou. Who's your captain in the Pentagon? Christonio, who was there at the beginning of this, who fetched General Myers, who found the air quality expert to give us readings in the skiff.

Starting point is 01:30:33 He was there at the beginning, he was there at the end. And, I mean, what was it like in the subsequent, like, weeks and months at the Pentagon after the attack for you? I write about that, too, Jack, because, you know, I write about in the spirit of being a resilient army family. And now, having broadened my experience 20 years as a diplomat, 30 years as a soldier. resilient diplomatic families too. Our diplomats overseas face challenges and dangers that most people associate only with the military.

Starting point is 01:31:12 After 9-11, anthrax, remember we were. People in Washington were not only receiving anthrax in the mail. They were dying from it. People forget people died. And then there were the Washington snipers. Oh, yeah, the D.C. Snipers. D.C. Snipers. So I remember we had a Volkswagen camper van pop-up, which we still had it.

Starting point is 01:31:40 Remarkable vehicle. And at that time, $300 seemed like a lot of money. So we put $300 in the van and kept the van gassed up at all times. And I told Edie something bad happens, don't wait, grab Daniel from school and head to Tennessee where her family's from and get safe. The second thing that happened was General Myers had been the Pacific Air Force commanders, a four-star, and they invited him back on that dramatic day of 7 December to commemorate Pearl Harbor Day. And we got on a U.S. Air Force G5, Gulfstream 5, corporate jet, and we're flying out to Hawaii so he could deliver that speech. He was then the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Starting point is 01:32:30 and we're over the Pacific Ocean and flight crew came back and said hey Colonel K you got a phone call from Washington and I picked up the phone in the bulkhead and it was General John Abazade who had become from the J5 the director of the joint staff

Starting point is 01:32:48 he became commander over he became four star CENTCOM commander and I had served with him before too Army General Matt and he sounded real cheery, which is not good. And I said, yes, sir, right back at you. He said, listen, I don't want you to worry about anything, but, God, we tested all the post office boxes in the Pentagon

Starting point is 01:33:16 post office for anthrax, and yours came up positive. And I said, he said, don't worry. He says, we got a doctor waiting for you at Hickham Air Force Base in Hawaii. He's going to give you Cypro and we get you all pumped up and it's going to be okay. And I said, General, I'm not worried about me. My son, Daniel, we kept them out of school this morning. He's running a fever. He's probably got anthrax. Can you call my wife?

Starting point is 01:33:43 He said, I'll take care of everything. So, you know, parents are worst nightmare. Your kid's sick, maybe in danger. And so they tested the post office box again and it was negative the second time. But they made us go through Cipro, the whole thing. know, but the sniper killed this beautiful FBI agent, a woman. Yep. Not more than a mile or two from our house.

Starting point is 01:34:10 I mean, just everything seemed to be. Yeah, spiraling. Yeah. One of the things that I try to bring to the surface in some of these interviews sometimes, especially because I know younger people watch these a lot of times and people who are thinking about joining the military. And one of the things I try to communicate. to people who are younger than I am is just how afraid everyone was at that moment in American history.

Starting point is 01:34:36 And I don't think people today who didn't live through it really understand what that feeling was like. I remember the gratitude of people in Los Angeles had when right after shortly after General Myers was sworn in, the public affairs people made a plan for him to travel around America. I guess you could say to rally support, not that it needed to be done. But the, I forget, I wish I could remember the venue, but there's a, there's like a world council, people interested in international affairs and just community-spirited people, have guest speakers coming. And we flew out to Los Angeles.

Starting point is 01:35:20 He gave a speech there. But what I remember was how much gratitude they expressed because they felt kind of left out, being so far from New York and Washington. Right. But, you know, to go to your point, the whole country was affected by this, and they didn't want to be forgotten. They didn't want their emotions to be ignored. And, of course, now people talk about, you know, how the country came together.

Starting point is 01:35:46 Somebody said, you know, is that still possible? Is today? I say absolutely yes. You know, the right, not because of tragedy alone. I mean, that could happen. The right leaders, the right moment. the right vision you know I as I said right at the beginning of our talk you know I'm a child in 60s not that I look like a child anymore used to have a full head of hair on 9-11 you could find

Starting point is 01:36:12 pictures of me he won't recognize me a full head of hair but yeah I just believe in this country in our ethos and our in our values one of the great things about being a united states ambassador is every fourth of july you hope the biggest ass party you can host. And you just, we had 400 people at our Fourth of July events. And my five years there, except for COVID. And boy, I just love talking about the Declaration of Independence. And we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal.

Starting point is 01:36:47 And it means something in a country like Turkmenistan. They had, they're not in Islamic Republic. They're not in a dictatorship, but it's an authoritarian government. and all those hidden messages and the Declaration of Independence, they understand, they get it, they want it. And it just makes me so proud to be an American. And so the more we talk about those values and things, I think, greater opportunity we have to be the nation that still is that beacon on the hill. How long after 9-11 did you retire from the military? I had a great opportunity.

Starting point is 01:37:29 I was General Myers-Exec for the first year of the War and Terror. We were traveled extensively. I've been mentioning name-dropping generals. I just wrote a letter and sent a copy of my book to General Buster Hagenbeck, who commanded the 10th Infantry Division, the first full division in Afghanistan. I think they got there in 2001, maybe two early. 2002. General Myers and I went and visited him. I was a battalion commander under him when he was a

Starting point is 01:38:01 brigade commander and I wanted him to have my book and so we you know I had these experiences of we went to Afghanistan 2001 2002 traveled all around the region and what didn't completely click with me because even though you're the chairman's exec you don't know everything as We started to make visits in the region in preparation for the invasion of Iraq. And almost always, General Myers would have me in meetings of meetings with heads of state, taking notes, and a couple meetings one-on-one. And that's what it was about. We started to lay the groundwork for the invasion of Iraq.

Starting point is 01:38:50 And then in the summer of 2003, I'm sorry, yeah, summer of 2002, General Meyer said, you know, you've been going almost 24-7 for a long time. I just had a meeting with the vice president, and he's looking for somebody to set up Homeland Security section within the office of the vice president. And I think he'd be perfect for it. You're interested in national security affairs. He's looking for someone with your credentials. So I was detailed as a colonel wearing civilian clothes every day to work for Vice President Cheney, which was absolutely stunning, remarkable experience.

Starting point is 01:39:34 And this was part of standing up DHS? Good question, Jack. I can't say with certainly, and Vice President Cheney's died, and I don't remember if it's in his memoir. But it was pretty clear to me he was not in favor of establishing the Department of Home Homeland Security. Interesting. I'm almost, I'm much more than 50% sure that he was not in favor of it, but that's what, you know, the powers to be to include his boss, the president, wanted. And when the decision was made like a good soldier, not that he was one, but he said, okay, you know, that's what we're going to do. And so he wanted a little cell. There were three of us to work Homeland Security

Starting point is 01:40:19 issues because he had Ambassador Eric Edelman, who was a friend of mine and later Ambassador Toria Newland as his national security advisors. We were his homeland security advisors, but we didn't participate in particularly in standing up DHS. But I worked on two very significant projects, which were the privilege of a lifetime at that point. one we had no kidding very credible not rumors there was going to be a terrorist attack on

Starting point is 01:40:56 subway system in new york and he called me in vice president called me and said i want to know everything you could tell me about on shenriqueo and the the japanese cult yes the attack on the japanese subway system that took place in forget what year yeah 1990s so there's a for those of you never had the honor of serving in the White House, the Eisenhower executive office building adjacent to it as a beautiful library. Just most beautiful library you can imagine. And I went to the library in there and said, I got a project for the VP and

Starting point is 01:41:31 I need to know everything I can possibly know about the Anchen Riccio Tech subway system. You know, they did all the gathering of all the research. Next thing I know, I'm getting a tour of the subway system with the chief of subway police. What is the? Metro. No, not the Metro. We have the MTA here in New York, yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:42:00 The New Jersey, New York. Report Authority. Yeah, yeah. And the Washington Metro system, I got a tour of that. It was just briefed the vice president. And that was just really, really neat. And they got word of pending al-Qaeda attack, planned attack. Obviously, it didn't happen.

Starting point is 01:42:25 Yeah. And I can't tell you why it didn't or if we shut down that cell or what. I really didn't know. But that was one of the projects I worked on. The second one was really interesting was, if you remember during this time, Two SA-7s were launched at a commercial airliner in Africa. It was a... In 1977, Rhodesia.

Starting point is 01:42:49 Well, no, this was current, you know, a current 21st century. They launched two missiles they missed because they didn't super-elevator. It did super-elevate. It was an Israeli charter jet, 737. And so they stood up a task force. in Washington. And the vice president said, you know, you're my rep on that task force. You could speak for me.

Starting point is 01:43:19 This is a leadership lesson. And I learned this when I joined the vice president's staff. When I left that meeting, my comrades, my colleagues came up and said, you heard what he said. I said, what do you say? What do you say? He said, you could speak for me. You don't use your boss's name unless you tell them. You don't say, the vice president wants me to do.

Starting point is 01:43:41 You got to get out of jail free card from Dick Cheney. Yeah. That's BS. Well, you use your own skills. Discretion, yes. And you never use the boss's name unless he says you can't. Did you have to pull that out? I didn't even realize he said that until my colleague said, you know, that's a big deal.

Starting point is 01:44:02 He doesn't say that often. So there's another leadership lesson. I had no idea I was going to tell this story, but you're good at drawing stories out of people. So we went to the task force meeting. And this is interagency. And there must have been 60, 70 people in the room. And I don't want to cast aspersions on anybody in particular. I don't even know this woman's name. And it's a long time ago. And the agency is a famous one. And they've changed radically since then. I hope for the better. I think so. But this is a lesson about bureaucracies and how we are locked in our lanes. Right.

Starting point is 01:44:41 So the meeting started. I don't remember who chaired the meeting. Probably had to be someone from the National Security Council on the president's staff. And I'm sitting in the room with 50, 60 other people. And just as the meeting started, some woman jumps up and she says in a very indignant voice, my name is Jane Doe. I'm from the FBI. That stands for the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Starting point is 01:45:11 We investigate things. We don't prevent things. I don't know what anybody else thought in the room. This is a year, a year and a half after 9-11. And she's, for all intents and purposes, said, we're not in the prevention of a 9-11. I'm pretty sure FBI is in the anti-terrorism business. It was just stunning.

Starting point is 01:45:35 But, you know, it's just we get locked into these things. Yeah. the third thing that I didn't realize was significant until I came back, my colleagues from the White House, after I had retired from the Army and started working at the State Department, invited me over to the White House mess. They said, you know, you've got a lasting legacy. And I didn't realize it. And he said, here's what it is. You put that matrix together for the vice president.

Starting point is 01:46:00 And what I did was I looked at every major city, Chicago, L.A., Denver, New York, you name it. and what NBC equipment they had in first responder vehicles what's in the trunk of police cars what's in the fire engines and of course it's all different because they're local

Starting point is 01:46:19 and we then we met with the experts and what would you want a typical fire engine, police car ambulance to carry can't carry everything right so we

Starting point is 01:46:32 and then we funded that vice president went to Congress and got the funding for it. And so something tangible happened from something I did in Washington. Those things actually ended up in the cars and trucks of first responders. What were the, what kind of equipment did you, like a protective mask? Yeah, I'm sure it was.

Starting point is 01:46:55 Detectors, detection. Yeah, I really don't remember, but yes. So tell us about retiring from the military and moving into diplomacy. Yeah. I guess it goes to another leadership lesson half for junior officers and young leaders. Lifetime goals. You know, I wrote down at a young age that I wanted to go to Washington, work in a policy arena.

Starting point is 01:47:23 That's how I ended up going to that war college fellowship instead of a regular war college slot. But, you know, when you travel with the Secretary of State, Warren Christopher for a year Madeline Albright is not just a secretary state she was a secretary state you do that for three years boy that you know that diplomacy bugged despite you

Starting point is 01:47:46 and I learned as much from General Myers as the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff as I did from the secretaries he is a statesman not just a chairman I had the privilege in three years with the secretaries one year

Starting point is 01:48:03 with General Myers as chairman in another year when he was vice chairman, really five years, of sitting in this close to heads of state, kings, prime ministers, countless foreign ministers. So I felt I was well equipped to become a diplomat. And I knew my army career wasn't going to last forever. And I was in the sit room working for Vice President Cheney in a situation room in the White House. And Warren Christopher's former chief of staff, Mara Hartford. was there. Ambassador Hardy was the Assistant Secretary of State for Consular Affairs. And she said, Matt, I haven't seen you in years. What are you doing?

Starting point is 01:48:44 She said, listen, you've got to retire from the Army at some point. I got a job for you. You have to qualify for it. It's in the Senior Executive Service, but I know you'll qualify. So why don't you apply and then a whole rigamarole and it's not easy and you go through it. But so, yeah, that's how I ended up there. It was the biggest, is the biggest bureau in the department of state. That was the executive director for council affairs. And it was a significant job at that point because that's when we were going to change our entire visa system to biometric passports, biometric visas, different criteria for taking fingerprints at the visa line.

Starting point is 01:49:31 So I was there to oversee all of that. But I wanted to be an ambassador, and I had goals. And I don't know. You never know how you're going to reach your goal. If you're foolish, if you're trying to map it out. I just know that off in a distance, when opportunities arose, you know, I would avail myself. And here's a big difference, Jack. You've been in the Army.

Starting point is 01:49:55 And no self-respecting Army officer would openly. campaign to be a brigade commander or a division commander. I mean, okay, yes, you know, you maybe drop a hint or, but it's just beyond the pale. But at the State Department, and I admire this, I want to make it very clear, you got to ask, you got a campaign, you've got to put yourself out there. They want to see who wants it. Yeah, you know, Army command positions are centrally selected. You don't ask for it.

Starting point is 01:50:30 They just put your name in the hopper and then the board meets in Washington and they look at everybody's file and they went to it down and they draw the line and everybody above that line gets selected. The State Department, you can't even know what diplomatic positions are open unless you ask for the list. Usually about 30 embassies are coming open every cycle. And so you even have to have enough courage to say, can I see the list of ambassadorships that are coming open in this cycle? And I got the list that are about 30. And I'll try to make this short because it took me three tries. And my dear wife said, you're not going to try a third time. I said, yeah, I want to do this.

Starting point is 01:51:12 And I saw a couple countries I thought it really is well qualified. And so then you knock on doors. You see every assistant secretary. I saw every undersecretary who's willing to meet with me. And I made an appointment to meet with the deputy secretary. And I attributed it to my Army training, not to me personally. But when I was done, the number two person deputy cabinet secretary, she said, that's the best interview I have ever had with anybody for any job.

Starting point is 01:51:44 And it's just Army training of, you know, being ready for any question that comes, anticipating, being open and honest, having EQ, emotional intelligence, reading body language and people. And then when you don't get the question you want, being able to kind of twist it to you get your points in. So this is a great story. I had a undersecretary who's kind of my champion, and he said, looks good, looks good.

Starting point is 01:52:15 And I was working on a secret project involving Karina Peninsula. And I had to give us a briefing at a military headquarters in Hawaii. So I flew out to Honolulu. I was feeling pretty good about everything. And I was the first briefer in this conference. We were having. I forgot which of the outposts, our Army posts, were doing this at.

Starting point is 01:52:42 I didn't know Hawaii very well. I'd been there a few times. But I had GPS in my car. And I got up in the morning, looked at my phone and called Washington. Call the Undersecretary. Where are you? Call me now. It's, oh my God.

Starting point is 01:52:55 I picked up the phone, and it's the Undersecretary, and he said, the deputies committee is going to meet in two hours. You're hanging by a thread. You need two more ambassadors or former ambassadors to weigh in on your behalf. So I get in the car, and I got the GPS set and I'm driving, and I'm calling people in Washington. I find two ambassadors who can you call, you know, the deputy secretary? get out of the briefing and I look at my phone and my undersecretary said, done, exclamation point. And I thought, hallelujah.

Starting point is 01:53:31 So I was slated to go to a small African country and which is fine. I wanted to be captain of my ship and don't forget to ask me about that. I wanted to lead and to be out there in the front lines and in the field. So when I got back to Washington, Undersecretary said, you don't want to go to that little country. You could go here, you could go here, you could go to Turkmenistan, you could go here. And I said, Turkmenistan. 700 mile border with Iran, 500 mile border with Afghanistan where we're fighting,

Starting point is 01:54:08 former Soviet Republic. Wow. But I don't speak Russian. And the Russian speakers will elbow me out and then I'll be left with nothing. and I'm happy, just leave it alone. I'm happy going in Africa. Two weeks later, after I've been studying Portuguese, you're going to Turkmenistan.

Starting point is 01:54:28 And so I was just thrilled beyond belief. A country with that kind of geographic significance. And of course, everybody, you know, there was a British adventure tourist writer. Adventure tourism was big for a while. And he went to Turkmenistan and wrote about it and said it's a cross between North Korea and Las Vegas. Because it's a white marble city, all white cars, all white buildings. But at night, because it's all white marble, it's a light show.

Starting point is 01:55:04 Everything's lit up with neon and colored lights and laser beams. It's like Las Vegas. It's just lights up the desert. So in addition to that and the geographical location. Tell us about Turkmenistan and how our relationship evolved with them from when you first heard about the country. It sounded like it was on 9-11 or close to it to, what, 18 years later when you're the ambassador. It's when official visitors come to Washington or came from Washington. The first thing I would say is Turkmenistan will surprise you. Almost always in a positive way.

Starting point is 01:55:43 Why? Well, first of all, it's enigmatic and it is a very close country. relative to other countries. But as I immediately arrived at them, this is not North Korea. And I resent people who try to characterize it like that. They don't make bombs. They don't threaten their neighbors. They're a neutral country by constitution.

Starting point is 01:56:02 And they walk that talk. They really practice it to the extent that it's to my advantage and disadvantage. It's to my advantage is the American ambassador because as a former Soviet Republic, Putin wants to draw them in. Sure. But they have a legitimate reason to say, we're happy to cooperate, but, but, only this far. Because we're a neutral country. And, you know, I could very legitimately tell them it's, you don't have to play to Russia

Starting point is 01:56:36 all the time. We're here too. And by the way, you're neutral. So you have to play. You have to play fair. Right. And they did. It's positive neutrality.

Starting point is 01:56:45 That's what they call. call it because they want to be engaged. They don't want to be a little Switzerland mining their own business. They want to be a regional player in terms of conferences and talks and to be at the table when Central Asia is being discussed. But they're not going to weigh in on the conflict in like Afghanistan or Iran or Ukraine. Very hard to get them to make a political statement. Yeah. But I'm going to come on. they could They could.

Starting point is 01:57:19 The, I had a, when I got there in 2019, um, it was just, it was a friendly relationship. Wasn't frosty at all. Um,

Starting point is 01:57:30 but it was just perfunctory. And, um, I was just determined to, to turn on the charm and, and, um, to use what,

Starting point is 01:57:41 and I think people now maybe look, cast aspersions on soft power, but, but to use every, everything I had in my toolkit to draw them in to look to the West, American in particular, but to the West in general, not just to the East geographically and politically because of their former Soviet ties. That's where they naturally would look.

Starting point is 01:58:03 Now, this is the Silk Road. They're natural entrepreneurs. It's in their DNA. I mean, my wife, Edie, it created the woman's economic society of Turkmedistan. started with seven women who wanted to trade their handicrafts or code and learn. By time she left five years later, 2,000 members in all the provincial capitals because they're traders. They're perfect for capitalism, frankly.

Starting point is 01:58:35 So I did a lot of work in an area I knew nothing about business relations. And there's an American U.S. Turkmenistan business council, US TBC, a guy named Eric Stewart runs out of Washington area. And big companies are there. Boeing, general electric turbines just power that country. All the Turkmenistan Air Fleet Boeing. There's a Jack Nicholas golf course there. Jack Nicholas has been there 17 times. No kidding. So big companies, yes, but I was drawing in smaller countries, companies.

Starting point is 01:59:14 It's the fourth largest gas, natural gas reserves in the world. And, you know, I can't pay in hard to get them to make more inroads to send natural gas to Europe rather than have the Europeans buying gas from Russia. Right. And before Nord Stream 2 was blown up, that was important. when Russia invaded Ukraine, everything changed dramatically. One of the things that I think it's fair to say, Turkmenistan values as much as neutrality is stability. And Ukraine starting a war not only with Europe, in Europe, but on the margins of Eurasia or part of Eurasia,

Starting point is 02:00:04 was extremely uncomfortable for the tournament. Stability. That's what they're looking for. So there was no doubt in my mind they would hue towards being a stable, I'm sorry, in a reliable, neutral country, but it was starting to shade towards the West. Because they were uncomfortable with what Russia was doing. When, you know,

Starting point is 02:00:34 There's a big celebration on the 9th of May to celebrate the end of World War II. And in the Soviet days, it was the biggest ceremony on Red Square, you can imagine. Now, all the former Soviet republics had soldiers who fought that war. So in Ashgabat, the capital of Turkmenistan, on a hilltop, there is the most amazingly beautiful emotional tribute to those who lost their lives in the Great War and on the other side

Starting point is 02:01:12 by the way is a beautiful tribute to those who lost their lives in a 1948 earthquake that devastated the capital city of Ashgabod. Tens of thousands of people died. Oh my God. So on Nightmare all the diplomatic corps lines up

Starting point is 02:01:28 to lay wreaths and flowers and it's a somber occasion and it's dramatic. And a lot of people who aren't diplomats don't realize it, but in most countries, you line up by order of rank as diplomats. And the rank is determined by how long you've served in country. So by chance, the Russian ambassador had been there for well over 12 years on 9 May 22,

Starting point is 02:01:59 and was therefore at the far right. of this row of ambassadors, and we're all holding bouquets of roses. And the president pulls up four and a half months after the invasion of Ukraine. He walks by the dean of the diplomatic corps, the Russian ambassador, and walks straight to the Ukrainian ambassador. And it braces him. I knew then that the world had changed in that part of the war. It's really fascinating, I think, with those.

Starting point is 02:02:32 Central Asian countries that because of where they are geographically, they have to play the game with Russia to some extent. But they're not a puppet state. They're independent countries and they have a will of their own. And there's a great book called Great Games Local Rules by Alexander Cooley wrote the book. And he makes the point in it that these countries in Central Asia actually very shrewdly determine their own destiny and play Russia and America off against one another.

Starting point is 02:03:06 Being a neutral country constitutionally puts them in a much better spot than their neighbors. Because their neighbors like to say, oh, we don't want to pick sides, but they could say, it's in our constitution. And they mean it. The other thing that happened

Starting point is 02:03:22 was that we made these inroads inroads economically with American businesses. Geopolitically, you know, I really think the Europeans were much more reluctant to deal with a country like Afghanistan with a very spotty, them being generous, human rights record than we were. And, you know, I had to be very careful not to reward them for bad behavior, but I found it

Starting point is 02:03:58 frustrating when Washington wouldn't reward them for good behavior. there were 19 political prisoners that were eventually released during my time as ambassador and the deputy foreign minister came up to me and said we're releasing them because of your insistence and that's the kind of good diplomacy that we practice as Americans but you just can't use a stick that you know my predecessors to try to get those prisoners out but I was trying to use both carrot and stick and luckily I had leaders in Washington who granted me that leeway and so you know what by time we left you know we had made some real progress the signature signature initiative for my wife Eadie and me

Starting point is 02:04:53 dealt with women and expanding their opportunities they it's not an Islamic Republic They're not veiled. You could wear blue jeans. But women are definitely in a patriotic, patriarchical society. Women ride in the back seat of a car. And in general, there's no rule, no law, but, you know, that's what's expected. Just as an example. But by time we left, we had made some real inroads.

Starting point is 02:05:26 And I had this thing about women driving license. We had over 300 locally employed staff at the embassy, and I found that at some point there was something happened in the country, and young women were no longer being able to pass their driving test. We had a few women in the embassy who had driving licenses, but they had gotten them years earlier, and now they were having trouble renewing them. So that didn't sit well with me because, and this is what I used is my excuse. some of the women could not get promoted in our embassy hierarchy without a driving license. So I use that as leverage to say, well, I'm not trying to tell you how to run your business here in Afghanistan, or I mean, Turkmenistan, or who could get a license. I'm not trying to tell you how to, you know, treat women. I'm just trying to get my women on equal footing so they could get the next promotion.

Starting point is 02:06:26 That's all it's about. Of course, they knew what I was all about. I was about women's rights and trying to get them something that they deserve. Do you take the test as a young man? Maybe four or five times you pass. You take it as a woman? We had women in the embassy. It took it 55 times.

Starting point is 02:06:42 That's great. They couldn't bet. So, you know, I have a favorite saying, a good diplomat never loses his or her temper unintentionally. Get it? It's okay to lose your temper intentionally. So I went to the driving test station with five of my embassy employees, Turkmen women.

Starting point is 02:07:03 And we had practiced a test with them dozens of times. And my American staff picked these five gals out and said, you know, they're ready. And the first one came out and I said, you passed. She said, no, I knew I screwed up in the parallel parking. Second one came out. I'm not sure. And the third one came out. She says, I passed.

Starting point is 02:07:24 I passed. I saw it. I saw it. But he changed it. I want to talk to who's in charge here. Oh my God. I raised a fit. And calm down, come.

Starting point is 02:07:38 They called the foreign ministry. The desk officer, the American desk officer came flying down the road. Mr. Ambassador, please calm down. I made a big seat. And the next day, the deputy foreign minister called me. He said, let's talk. Give me a list. Tell me who you want to pass.

Starting point is 02:08:02 he said Mr. Ambassador he says this is our culture you know it's changing slowly give us time so I went to my deputy and we made a tactical air you know I was thinking we'll give her our best drivers and my deputy said let's give her we got 44 women let's give him my 44 weeks nothing happened so a year I went by and um I kept beating the drum and and went to the foreign minister he rolled his eyes he said I'm good friends with him. I had a great relationship. He says, you really want to talk about driving license. You know, there's a whole list of things we need to talk about. And I said, I got back to the embassy and there was a note, said, give them a list. And so this time we chose five women

Starting point is 02:08:48 and then finished this story. When I hit the five-year mark, my successor still hadn't been confirmed by the Senate. But I told everybody. five years in Turkmenistan is enough. In my 70s, it's time to retire. And we had a Fourth of July celebration you couldn't beat. And that was my farewell as well. And when we got back a week later, a week after I left, I got the sweetest note and photograph from one of the six women that were on the list, I passed.

Starting point is 02:09:30 and on it was a handwritten note that I put in my personalized stationary tour saying you are a woman of courage you have never given up you have a big heart I know that whatever you do you will be successful in something like that picture that note and a picture of her driving sweetest thing I ever got do you feel like uh Turkmenistan is generally heading in a positive direction or is it backsliding in some ways. Oh, I've been gone for two years, so I have to give you that caveat. Sure. Absolutely.

Starting point is 02:10:09 The trajectory is definitely positive. They're more engaged. Their economy is stronger than it has been. We still get notes from entrepreneurs. What I would like them to do is diversify more, not only in different sectors, but as I said, mostly natural gas? Yes, and textiles. But the fourth largest natural gas reserves in the world should be going to Europe.

Starting point is 02:10:41 And what they need is a pipeline under the Caspian. Azerbaijan is on the other side of that. Little of them, a little of Turkmenistan. But, you know, this excuse that we've heard for years that the Russians will stop it, you know, I don't think that holds anymore. I think if they really want to do it, they could do it. Their biggest sellers, 80% of that natural gas goes to China. And I think China views them as a good provider,

Starting point is 02:11:10 and they think China is a good supplier. They're not in debt to China. The debt trap you've heard so much about doesn't apply to them in Turkmenistan. But, you know, I think diversify. Look to the West, not just to the Far East or to the Near East. and they do have a pipeline they're making to Harat with the plan to go to Pakistan and onto India. It's happy.

Starting point is 02:11:35 Interesting. So can I travel there without diplomatic immunity? Glad you asked. As I said before, Turkmenistan will surprise you for anybody who has got an ounce of adventure in them, go to Turkmenistan. Yes, you could go. But, it's the but, they welcome tour groups.

Starting point is 02:11:56 So if you want to go by yourself, you're probably not going to get a visa. But it's very simple to go online and find these tour groups. And when you go in a tour group, you're not constrained. You know, you can't go here. You can't go there. They'll set up. First of all, it's probably wise because the road network, the transportation network, is not set up for tourists.

Starting point is 02:12:19 And so you need that kind of help anyway, unless you're the biggest adventurer. But when you're there, you have the freedom to look around and to experience the culture of Turkmenistan, which is extraordinary. This is the Silk. They have the Seljuke, 11 to 12th century Seljuke archaeological sites that are being excavated. Some of them are being renovated or excavated with the help of American taxpayer money through the Ambassador's Fund for Cultural Preservation. They are extraordinary. Is it going to be like a UNESCO site? It's a little different than UNESCO.

Starting point is 02:13:00 You know, it's a pittance of money, but that big plaque that says from the people of the United States of America is on these archaeological sites. And they're dramatic. The Silk Road caravan Sarais, where the camels would come in. The traders would camp in the center of these beautiful caravans. ant sites and the camels would be in the outside and their space throughout the Silk Road. The city of Merv was once the largest city in the world until Jenghis Khan came and killed everybody. And Gagos Khan killed every man, woman, and child in the city. And it never fully recovered.

Starting point is 02:13:46 But the ruins of Merv are dramatic because they're a superstructure. So you're not just looking down into an archaeological pit. The superstructure is still there and intact. And to think tens of thousands of people lost their lives there in the 12th century is just haunting and moving. People are warm. They're generous. This is the Silk Road generosity you read about. If there are some anti-Americanism, we encounter looking at my wife here, no.

Starting point is 02:14:21 I mean, just a great country to visit. You know, I'd be interested to hear, you know, what I'm taking away from this conversation with you is that you're a big advocate of soft power and diplomacy and the idea that America can do good around the world in a cooperative sort of framework. Could you make the case for folks out there for soft power in the 21st century from the United States? Absolutely. It's inexpensive. It doesn't cost much. We had five cultural centers in Turkmenistan. They were the most subscribed in the world of any American embassy.

Starting point is 02:15:02 We have embassies around the world. Why? Because they restrict Internet use in Turkmenistan. And at the cultural center in Ashgubat, there's no restrictions. So kids, of course, love to come there. But they have 3D printers, American Movie Night. It's just wholesome. It's, you know, giving kids an opportunity to practice their English.

Starting point is 02:15:29 So in this world that not only live in now, but for our children and our grandchildren, do you want them learning Russian? Do you want them learning Chinese? Or you want them learning English. I know what I want them to learn English. It makes it much more natural to look to the West than to the East. and any good soldier will tell you that going to war is the last resort, not the first. So we need people who, when things go wrong, we could pick up the phone and call and call in our chips, ask for favors or ask them to not do something.

Starting point is 02:16:12 When regionally, not necessarily in their country, we need that kind of support. And I go right back to the evacuation of Kabul when we were desperate for overflight rights and landing rights. And we had built the kind of relationship where I could go to the foreign minister and ask for that kind of help. And they were cool with it as long as you kept it low-key. So you finish your time as the ambassador. You have a second retirement, I take it at this point. Well, you know, you're good drawing out stories. So let me go right back to the first question you asked about my upgrade.

Starting point is 02:16:55 I told you my dad was the sweetest man you ever know. When I retired from the Army, I was working in the White House for Dick Cheney. And at my retirement ceremony, you know, Cheney loved the military and actually went with him to the battlefield of Chickamauga to walk the battlefield where his great-great-grandfather fought. And I had taught military history and it spent two days in the battlefield teaching history there. And so we went. So he said, you know, Colonel, you've been driven all your life by goals and, you know, military promotions and sending your sights on one assignment after another.

Starting point is 02:17:40 What are you going to do in retirement? I mean, what's your goal? And without knowing he was going to ask me that and without thinking, I said, my goal is to be more like my father, sweetest man in the world. And I still haven't gotten there. So when I retired from 20 years as over 20 years as being a diplomat, I was really anxious to do it. I wanted to keep doing it.

Starting point is 02:18:09 Somebody's big compliment to me. I heard someone said, nobody could out. energized the ambassador. I got up every morning at 515, and I ran or swam at the embassy pool. My bodyguards, when my first got there, could not keep up with me. These are big hulking guys. They're not great running. Yeah, I embarrassed them so much.

Starting point is 02:18:32 They got buff. They got in shape. Then I would have breakfast, and I would still be at work at the embassy before anybody else. That's the kind of life I led. And so I wanted to be, I wanted to write. I wanted to write that book because I've been thinking about it. I wanted to be on some boards, advisory boards, and maybe teach. And so I'm on one advisory board now, the Caspian Policy Center in Washington.

Starting point is 02:19:03 I've got my second book in Train. It's about our five years in Turkmenistan. I can't wait to read that. And I've got a third book. concept in taking notes for on leadership. But there will all be leadership books. But I'm, you know, I am trying sincerely and not in jest. I'm realizing that I don't need to do all this stuff.

Starting point is 02:19:31 And so, yeah, I'm purposefully want to cut back. And we built a retirement home in Tennessee on a high ridge line overlooking the Cumberland Mountains. It's a spectacular view. And I sit in the deck, watch the wildlife. Drink some coffee. Yeah. It's just incredible. In the book, as the Pentagon burned leadership in human excellence in the face of the 9-11 attack,

Starting point is 02:19:58 where can people go to find this? Thanks for reading the full title, the subtitle, Leadership and Human Excellence in the face of the 9-11 attack, because I wanted to emphasize human excellence in the face of crisis. It's on Amazon.com. Um, Bards and Nobles online. Um, you could order it. Um, some local bookshops in the Washington area, uh, politics and pros in the Washington area carries it. Um, but I, I think mostly through Amazon.com is where I'm getting big sales. And it did hit top three, Amazon.com. That's great. I'm excited to actually read your book about Turkmenistan because that's, it's a, it's just a,

Starting point is 02:20:38 a country that it's hard to parse information out of. Yeah. Um, do we have any, um, um, do we have any alibis from your wife tell me what I got wrong edie any embarrassing stories you want to tell no uh oh my gosh edie was so beloved we were walking in a bizarre once in one of the provincial capital cities and uh there was some there were there were a few young girls there and i could see them looking at us and whispering and i thought they want to come say hello they walked right past me went right up to Edy because they knew she created the woman's economic society. And the girls just looked up to her. I mean, and in a familial society like that, they...

Starting point is 02:21:30 Everything's about relationships. They honor their parents and grandparents. And so we were grandparent figures for them, I guess you could say. The women's economic society has continued. Not at Eadie's gone. We were worried it might physically. allowed but yeah that's still that's amazing yeah wow that's great uh and any final thoughts no i want to thank you for uh bringing me in but but thank you for the work you do yeah thank

Starting point is 02:22:11 you's really giving people a voice and and a place to turn to um i know a lot of people um are out there with similar approaches but um i think here's a special jack and really appreciate yeah no thank you don behind the scenes and um um It's great to be in New York City on the eve of the 25th anniversary of 9-11 to really take that in. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I'm really glad you reached out, and I'm really glad that we'll be able to, this will essentially be the podcast's 9-11 anniversary show. I think it's a good time to take a pause and just remember that.

Starting point is 02:22:52 So, folks, you can go and find, as the Pentagon burned by Embankhammed, or retired Matthew Clemow. It is out now. And thank you for joining us. We'll see all you guys actually later this week. I just noticed the Claymore. Yeah, you like that. Who would have thought of this?

Starting point is 02:23:22 Hello, everyone. If you're hearing this, you are not a member of the Patreon. You can get your hands on ad-free episode. that come out early and you can ask us questions maybe we'll answer them you can also watch the team house podcast completely ad free and early and you can also watch it live as we interview our guests and it's the best way to support the channel so if you can if you're open to it you can go to patreon.com slash the team house that link is in the description we appreciate the supporters and we hope you would consider being one so it's patreon.com slash the team house thanks guys

The Team House - Inside the Pentagon on 9/11 | Ambassador Matthew Klimow

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