The Team House - Legendary Conflict Filmmaker, Author, & Journalist | Robert Young Pelton | Ep. 280

Episode Date: June 1, 2024

Support the show here:⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseRobert Young Pelton is a Canadian-American author, journalist, and documentary film director. Pelton's work usually consists of conflict reporting and interviews with military and political figures in war zones. Pelton has been present at conflicts such as the Battle of Qala-i-Jangi in Afghanistan, the Battle of Grozny (1999–2000) in Chechnya, the rebel siege to take Monrovia in Liberia, and the siege on Villa Somalia in Mogadishu, and has been with ground forces in about 40 other conflicts. He spent time with the Taliban and the Northern Alliance pre-9/11, the CIA during the hunt for Osama bin Laden and also with both insurgents and Blackwater security contractors during the war in Iraq. Pelton's regularly published survival and political guide The World's Most Dangerous Places, provides practical and survival information for people who work and travel in high-risk zones, and is a New York Times bestseller.[8] He was also the host of the Discovery Travel Channel series entitled Robert Young Pelton's The World's Most Dangerous Places from 1998 to 2003. Now residing in Los Angeles, Pelton currently writes books and produces documentaries on conflict-related subjects and documentaries.Grab RYP's books here: ⬇️https://www.google.com/search?gs_ssp=eJzj4tTP1TcwLjDJNjJg9BIuyk9KLSpRqMwvzUtXKEjNKcnPAwCeDQqj&q=robert+young+pelton&rlz=1C1VDKB_enUS1042US1042&oq=robert+young+p&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgBEC4YgAQyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQLhiABDIHCAIQABiABDIHCAMQABiABDIHCAQQLhiABDIKCAUQLhjUAhiABDIGCAYQRRg9MgYIBxBFGD3SAQg3NzQ1ajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#wptab=si:ACC90ny01_oQj607VqUhs83ZrDqFRkBtoifDHyDeFMQIha9CNWFN01ZpP5hcP0JW_fQw2GaGuOmPeTgmmPRdTpEvCkB6Z6gIbOYWE0oAkAn509pwRZdsw4aCKU6J8UEazSZY9PLINDozdZCxB-fNSiAwbMTwWCtV-A%3D%3DFind RYP here: ⬇️https://www.comebackalive.com/——————————————————————To help support the show and for all bonus content including:https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse-AD FREE AUDIO-AD FREE VIDEO-Access to ALL bonus segments with our guestsSubscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseOr make a one time donation at: ⬇️https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouseTeam House merch: ⬇️https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963Social Media: ⬇️The Team House Instagram:https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_linkThe Team House Twitter:https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePodJack’s Instagram:https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_linkJack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21Team House Discord: ⬇️https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6SubReddit: ⬇️https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSampleWant to sponsor the show?Email: ⬇️[e-mail]#theteamhouseBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Hey guys, it's Jack. I just wanted to talk to you today about a way that you can help support the podcast if you're not already. To support the channel is to become a Patreon member. So we have Patreon memberships that start at just $5 a month. And when you sign up, you get access to all of our episodes ad free. That's the big bonus for that. I mean, we also do some Patreon bonus episodes for our subscribers. But this is the biggest and best way that you can support the Team House. channel and podcast if you'd like to and we really appreciate that so go it and check us out at patreon.com slash the team house special operations covert ops espionage the team house with your host jack murphy and david park hey folks welcome to episode 280 of the team house i'm jack murphy

and our guest on tonight's show is a much requested person that our viewers have wanted us to have on here for quite a while. We're really happy to have Robert Young Peltin on the show. Robert is a conflict journalist. He is the author of The Hunter, The Hammer in Heaven, Licensed to Kill, the World's Most Dangerous Places, Numerous other books about the places he's gone. I mean, he's kind of notorious for traveling to all the dangerous,

zones of the world and coming out of them with some really interesting stories. These books had a big influence on me in my life and kind of colored the direction that I went in. So we're really happy to have him on the show and hear about some of his adventures and some of his life experiences. And I just first off want to tell you guys about our Patreon. If you guys would consider subscribing to our Patreon, the links down in the description. $5 a month gets you all of these episodes add for. and keeps the show running. So we really appreciate all you guys that are subscribers and you

find the link down in the description. So Robert, welcome to the show, man. Nice to see you, Jay. Yeah, good to see you, man. So this has been a long time coming. Let's start at the beginning, you know, to give people a little bit of a sense of who you are and because you've written about it too. I mean, I think it would be great to start with a little bit about your upbringing and your early introductions into survivalism? Or lack thereof, right? So I was born in Edmonton, Alberta, which is a long way from anywhere. And I went to a school, and by the time I was in grade two, I was kicked out of school,

and I didn't bother doing any work or any exercises. And my teacher told my mother very politely that I was retarded. So that was the beginning of my education. And the principal, God bless her, thought, well, you know, he's sitting there reading all these books. And, you know, I was reading the Odyssey by Homer. I was reading all the Hardy Boy, books one through whatever, 100. So they sent me off to a university to have a bunch of tests. And these tests were in front of a two-way mirror with guys with the white coats.

And it was rather odd. Anyway, they went back and they said, no, he's not retarded. He's actually pretty smart. So that was, you know, sort of the beginning of my experience. with learning things. I was not in a traditional school. So I was immediately elevated to grade 9. I don't know what age I was, grade probably nine years old. I passed grade 9. And then they said, okay, we got to do something. So they got me a university scholarship. And they said, that's kind of a joke. It'll be a freak show. So they picked a school that was advertising itself as being a school with an advanced curriculum and a very serious outdoor program. you did chores, you were on the cooking, you did laundry, whatever.

It was called St. John's Cathedral Boy School. And I was the youngest student there at the time. And I started at grade six. And what was interesting was years later, I was doing a press tour in Canada. And some journalists said, oh, you went to that prison school. And I'm like, what? I said, it's a prison school.

Oh, no, it was an adventure school. He said, no. That was where judges used to send juvenile defenders instead of jail. So, you know, we canoed a thousand miles every year. We did snowshoe runs after school, 10, 15 miles. We did snowshoe races that were up to 50 miles. We raised animals. We slaughtered them.

We sold them door to door. I studied Latin, ancient Greek. You know, I spoke Voyager, French. I can go on. Anyway, what the school's famous for is actually killing 12 of its kids. And, you know, when the, I'm like the world's worst guy. when I say, oh, when I was a kid, we used to head off into the wilderness on snow shoes in the dark

because it wasn't much light there with nothing, no water, no first time, nothing. And on one of the school trips, they got another sort of famous mention because they were the first person to bring back a kid from the dead. He'd been dead for a few hours. And thank God they brought him into a hospital where a doctor had actually studied bringing

hypothermic and dead kids back. It fell through the ice. So it was a strange school, and it doesn't run anymore. But that was at the beginning. And I got out of there and sort of 1968, you know, flower, power, power, summer of love, all that kind of stuff. And I was this completely tanned kid with a brush cut that only wore golf shirts and jeans. And I didn't listen to music.

I didn't know anything. Like coming out of prison. So it was, I mean, when people say, well, what's it like going into a war zone? And I'm like, oh, that's not that bad. You know, the food's pretty good. I don't have to work all the time. Anyway, so that's my early upbringing. And after prison school, you found yourself at a career in advertising.

For a good period of your life, it sounds like, and, you know, fairly successful at it. Tell us a little bit about that period of your life and how you transitioned into becoming, you know, essentially a conflict to journalist. I mean, it's a pretty big jump. Yeah, and, you know, you kind of have to go slow because you don't end up being a retard kid and then end up being a conflict journalist. But I sort of had a great high school. I started the outdoors club. I was really interested in high school because I was actually socializing with normal people. And then when I was 16, because, you know, I was younger than everybody, my mother told me I was leaving and I'm like, oh, that's nice.

What am I going to do? And I don't care. So I lived in a pink rambler station wagon. I picked fruit. I was basically homeless, but I would tell people I was traveling. And when I was in high school, I took an aptitude test. And they said the three things I'd be good at were astronaut, which in Canada doesn't take you very far, adventurer, which was not a job, and advertising man, which I didn't

know what that was, but I thought I'll remember that. So after I got tired of being homeless, I drove to Toronto and I literally called every name in the phone book, starting with the A, and if it was a guy named the Abercrombie, I asked for Mr. Abercromb, and they'd say, no, he's been dead for 30 years. Well, who's the president? I want to talk to him. So three of those presidents actually talked to me and said, wow, you know, you got guts kids. So the problem is you're too young, right? You don't know that much. So I found a guy who said, look, why don't you go work as a mail boy? And you can start from the bottom from the mailroom. And I went to the mail room. They said, what do you know about delivering mail?

So I got a job with a mailboy at Merrill Lynch, went back to the ad agency. He said, okay, I've had six months experience. They hired me. The next day I go into the creative director's office and I say, okay, make me a copywriter. And it's like, whoa, slow down, kid. So by 17, I was a copywriter. And when I say copyrighter, you know, you write the headlines above the pictures and you do the body copy. And it's interesting work.

You've got to be creative. Well, anyway, so after about six months a year of doing that, I became very good friends with a guy named Bob McClare, who was the executive vice president. And we used to hang out at night and chain smoke. And he started working, was 19. And he said to me, he said, Pelton, you're good at what you do, but you're kid. You know, you don't know anything. You don't know anything about customers.

You don't know anything about products. You don't know anything, right? He said, why don't you get out there and see the world? Because, you know, he had started working. He was 19. He had a bunch of kids and became a business guy. And he's never really had that time. He said, take this time, use it.

So I took a leave app. I traveled around the world. I worked in Australia. I got kind of bored of traveling because it's just a bunch of guys hitchhiking and, you know, people sitting in youth hostels and things that look just like they're out of postcards.

But I enjoyed Australia. I went back and after about a year, I went back and I said, okay, with my job. And who are you? And I was like, I'm Robert Talton. And I used to work for Bob McClure. He said, he's dead. I'm like, holy shit.

He was about 55 at the time. They said that McAler, who was a devout Roman Catholic, had a PhD in theology of all things. After I left, left his wife and kids, went to Spain, bought a beret,

put an earring in, and had a monkey in wrote poetry at a cafe for a few months. And then took the earring out, sold the monkey, went back to his wife and kids, and had a heart attack and died. And I thought,

holy shit, that's a life lesson right there. So, you know, to condense the part about business, which is boring, is I was very good at what I did. I moved to the States on one of those chicken sexers and hockey players' visas. I started working with people like Steve Jobs. I helped people start businesses like the upper deck card company.

I made a lot of people, a lot of money. And it was fun, right? And I drove silver rolls rise. I had $1,600 suits. I had a 10,000 square foot office with my name on. I was on the Inc 500. I think I was number 146 or something like that. And I couldn't have had a better, my last child,

I got paid $500,000 a year from Marvel just to answer the phone, you know, if they had a question or something. So I was like the guru, the marketing guru. And I remember that I worked as a copywriter for a guy named Stan Kates. And his wife demanded that he took a month off. And he was a workaholic. And he used to chain smoke and a nice guy. He worked really hard, but everything was, you know, had to do this, had to do this.

So he would leave and when he would come back, he was like Zen like. He was calm. He was tanned. He wasn't smoking as much. He could focus more. And I learned from that as well. I said, you know, you need to take that time off. So I used to take a year off, sorry, a month off.

And I'd pick the most remote part on the map and I would go there. And sometimes these are expeditions, sometimes they're competitions, like the camel trophy. Sometimes I drive around the entire island of Borneo because it hadn't been done before. And some, you know, I'd bring journalists along and, you know, they would make fun of me as a dilettante. And they'd say, well, yeah, fine, you can go to Borneo,

you can go to Africa or whatever. But try to go to places like Afghanistan or the Congo or Burma where they want to kill you, right? I'm like, what does that mean? He said, well, that's real adventure. Like, what you're doing now is, like, what dilettantes do, right? And it's fun, but it's like camping. And I'm like, you know, you're right.

I mean, nobody's trying to kill me, but I'm having fun. And I said, well, where should I go? So my first trip was to Eastern Turkey because somebody wanted to interview this warlord who tried to kill the Pope. So I said, okay, so I went there, met the guy. He had no idea why I was there. I had no idea what to ask him. And I remember we went out for a shooting contest and his little guy named Sadat Bouchak.

So his bodyguard threw the Pepsi can in the air. and he took his 45 and he missed it. And then they threw it up for me and I hit it. And that was kind of embarrassing. So the bodyguard went over to Bouchak's can and shot it. And I learned another lesson at that point. So I was intrigued, right? But I wasn't doing anything.

I wasn't writing about it. I wasn't doing films. I was just doing it. And then I would call journalists. So you want to interview this guy? Sure. So I went to Afghanistan to meet with the Taliban. when they took over Kabul back in the mid-90s, right?

And again, I mean, I marveled at why I'm still alive, but basically I went over in Pakistan looking for the Taliban and found out that my guy was a drug dealer, and he wasn't taking me anywhere near anybody related to the Taliban. So I ditched him, and I called the local journalist because I noticed that there was a story about the Taliban in the local Bashar press. And he said, oh, they're in the smuggler's market.

You go down there, you bang on the dog, or ask any kid. They'll take you right to the Taliban. So I did that and I banged on this door and the steel gates opened up and there's all these horribly wounded young men, you know, with turbines and they kind of look like farm kids and there's blood-soaked blankets everywhere. And I go up the stairs and I remember there's a whole bunch of little cheap sandals lined up. So I take my hiking boots off. And I meet this guy with a big turban. He's got old 1930s pistol and a leather belt with little bullets in it. And he's very polite.

He speaks English. And he says, how can I help you? And I said, well, I want to understand the Taliban. I don't know what you are. I don't know what you're doing. I've never heard of students driving tanks, you know, taking over country. So I just want to hang out and figure out what you're doing. He said, oh, well, we don't have any propaganda to give you.

And I said, no, no, no, I just want to hang out. I don't want to read something. And I'll take pictures and I'll bring some friends. We'll set up an interview with the mullahs and blah, blah, blah. I said, no, no. in our religion it's haram, you know, to show our faces. And I said, well, no, no, it's like the loudspeaker on the mosque, you know, except it's camera.

You just, you can talk to more people and you can explain what you're doing to people. And I'm like, no, no, it's against Islam. We're not to show a face. And I said, well, then you're just like a bunch of women hiding behind the burqa. And this guy's just like silence in the room. And he says, well, I. understand what you're saying. I will go to Kabul and I will hold the Shura with the leaders, the Mullahs, and I'll ask me a question. So he does that and they say, sure, you can do it.

So I call up, I said, there's one problem is I'm not a Muslim, so I can't do the actual interviews. So I call a friend of mine who is a Muslim. And I say, hey, he wanted to interview the Taliban. He said, sure. So he brings his camera and he interviews the Taliban. And he gets to Mullah Omar, theoretically has never been interviewed. And Mullah Omar has got one eye sewed shut, right? And he's kind of self-conscious about it. And he says, you cannot show me. And then he tries that shit that I pulled back in shower.

He said, well, you know, the path to your heart, blah, blah, blah. He said, no, no, the path to my heart is through my voice. So you can record my voice, but you can't record my face. So he has a voice recording, right? So at that point, these journalists were like, Jesus Christ, this guy's either an idiot or he's like a genius. Like, how does he do this? And I was enjoying doing this, right?

I really, I mean, the time I spent with the Taliban, it was very interesting. I went up to the front lines and we sat there and got shelled. I read about it in my book, The Adventurist. Did you have some conception at this point in time? Like, did you have a job or were you hoping to write a book or thinking you could pitch this to like Reuters or something down the line? I mean, I'm just curious what your thought process was. This is my vacation. This is my one month that I take off to reverse.

black and reconnect with the world, right? This is not any kind of business venture. But I do start feeling pangs of guilt because a lot of people are going through a lot of effort, you know, to get me to the front lines and show me this and show me that. And I had a series of deaths, beginning with one of my clients was playing racquetball and he got hit in the shoulder. And the doctor said, look, you've got bone cancer. He got a few months to live.

And his name was Bob Mubalia, a beautiful man, really nice, good friend of mine. And he died very quickly. My father was diagnosed with Luke Garrick's disease. And again, you know, he had a few months to live. And they were in their late 50s. I was in my early 40s, you know. And I started thinking, you know, I was saying, okay,

I have everything. You know, I was a poor kid. I was started from nothing. I work all the time. I have everything. I don't enjoy these things. I don't, you know, I don't want to be doing this 10 years from now. I want to be doing something that people with silver hair have.

Back then I didn't have silver hair. I just a skunk bet. So I thought, well, I'll be a publisher. So I bought a publishing company from William Morrow called the Fielding Travel Guides. And I started revamping the travel guides. And one of the books I always wanted to write was World's Most Dangerous Places, which to me was a book you actually need. If you're going to a place where they're trying to kill you, you probably should have a guidebook.

But if you're going to Paris or Hawaii, I don't think you need a guidebook, right? So this was just before the internet. So I couldn't find anybody to write this book. I called people. I said, you know, you're in the CIA, blah, blah, blah. I'm not going to fucking war zones writing a book. You're crazy? So I started writing it.

And because I, you know, I'm kind of like a Forrest Gump. I just decided to go to those places and interview everybody and talk about it. and then condense it into a book. And so I wrote this book, it's huge, those thousand pages, and it was boring. And I thought, you know, nobody's going to read this. And so I wrote it again, but funny, like in my voice, right, like the way that I'm telling a story to somebody. And you remember this was before wokeness, right? Basically, I'm insulting every person on every side in every country, about every sort of ethnic, religious, whatever thing you could.

But it was incredibly readable. And in the first year, I published it. And remember, I'm a publisher. I'm doing 50 books a year. So I ran, I sold 100,000 copies. I updated it about six months later. I sold another 100,000. I updated the next year.

I did about another 100,000. And then I thought, wow. And I got a call from Microsoft. And they had heard that I had databased. I was tired with the way people write travel guides. So I created a database system. So everything had to be the same. and then there was ratings for how romantic it was

or how scenic, whatever. And I'd created a database system so I could generate these books and I could cross-generate them like most romantic places in Europe, et cetera, et cetera. And they were setting up a site called Expedia, right?

So they wanted content. And I had also done a business plan about how to monetize transactions because I simply thought, well, if I got a travel guide, why don't I sell tickets, right? Like if I like this cruise ship, I like this hotel, why can't they just sell tickets to monetize it? But I didn't have the brains or the time for that.

So they said, no, no, no, we'll just pay you lots of money and you just give us all that content. I said, fine, I give them a hard drive. I also at least the data to IBM and all kinds of people. And then I thought, you know, this is my ripcord right here. This is my emergency ship. So I kept world's most dangerous places. And I said to myself, I'm going to be the brand, you know. And we're talking 1993, something like that.

So if I can make other people millions of dollars by selling whatever widgets or baseball cards or computers, I'm sure I can do just fine. So within about six months, ABC News was doing a big special on me about being a solo journalist and traveling around the world, which I was probably the original solo journalist. I had a TV series of specials, you know, with Discovery. And I was everywhere because I was like, oh, this guy goes to war zones on his vacation. Ha, ha, ha, isn't that funny? But it was a book read by a lot of real people.

And as you probably know, you know, the agency made it required reading. It was soldiers were issued it. I mean, it was cool that it was helpful to people. So by 19, by the mid-90s, I was basically doing this as a job. So there's no segue there. I was just saying.

So I had this book. I had to update it. I had this series of documentaries. And I had to put out product. And honestly, I don't know if you know what it's like commuting to horses. But when I got kidnapped in Columbia, I had a film crew waiting for me in Texas ready to start my next show because I was doing a quick Nat Geo. I remember that. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. on my idea like I went to Liberia right and I was surrounded by Charles Taylor's people really gory you can see it's called inside Larberia black something and I was surrounded with the Lurred rebels and you know after one battle my gunboy gives me a severed head and I mean it's just weird it's like whoa they're eating things and killing things and and everybody was saying man you're tweaked you're tweaked you're going out you're getting all this stuff and it doesn't shock you it doesn't you know affect you well it's

It's just what I do, right? I'm documenting what they do. I don't have any part of this war. I'm just getting it on film. Anyways, and so my wife got mad at me. And she said, you need to do camping and a hiking show because you work for National Geographic and you work for Discovery. So you need to tell them, I'm doing, I'm not doing a war stuff. I'm between hiking and camping. And I didn't have the heart to explain her. That doesn't work that way. But I go to my editor at National Geographic Adventure. And I said, look, I'm in a doghouse, man. I need to do. like a hiking story or something, you know? And she goes, what do you think?

I said, I don't know. I said, when I was 19, I hitchhiked all the way down through Central America through all the wars. And I was going to hike the Daring Gap. And I met people and I said, no, no, you don't want to do that. And then I looked at this little island and I thought, hmm, we should hike to the jungle for like 10 days or go to this tropical island. And so I said, I'll go to this tropical island.

So I didn't check it out, but I had no interest in hiking the Dairy. So I said, what if I go back? And I hiked the Derry. in. And I'll go find some young kids about my age at that time. And we'll talk about adventure. Like, I'll be the burnt out adventure guy and I'll be talking to these young adventure people. And I met two 26-year-olds who were going to hike the Daring Gap. I didn't realize the later they had no intention of doing it, but they figured, oh, Pelton's doing it. I'll go with him. And two days in, there was an ambush. It killed, I don't know, three or four Indians,

cut their heads off and disemboweled them or whatever. And it was gunfire in the jungle. And I had these two kids with me. And I was like, son of a bitch, right? Like, I'm trying to take a vacation and I'm in a war. So I said to them, I said, look, we got three options here. One, we turn around and walk, but whoever's killing those people is going to find us. Number two, we just kind of, you go this way, I'll go that way.

And whoever gets caught, too bad, whoever escapes, that's great. Or I'm going to walk into the ambush. and I feel more comfortable walking into the ambush because then I have control over where these people are. Now, I knew both the leaders of the FARC and the desquots, right? There you see. So Carlos Castano, I'd set up an interview for him. The FARC, I'd interviewed all the FARC leaders.

I'd shitty Spanish. And I said, I'm just going to walk into the, so I said, everybody stay 50 to 100 yards apart and just talk really loud in English because I'm pretty sure it's the desk squats because we'd already met the FARC, right? And I said, when they start shooting, just whatever way I roll, you roll the other way, right? And then as soon as you get out of their sight, just run like hell and just run downhill towards the ocean, right?

And just follow a creek, whatever. So we're talking and they keep bunching up. And I'm like, no, no, this is really fucking serious. You have to go back there. And they jump us. And they're like, hands up. Get on the ground. Drop your backpack.

You know, like all these different things. They're all sweaty because they just shot. these Indians, right? And I could see it. It says right there, you know, AUC on their, on their gear, right? Ernest Cardenza Blockade, BEC, which is the old one. And I'm like, okay, fucking desquas, okay, well, at least I can say, you know, Carlos, my buddy Carlos, but we're in the deep in the jungle and they don't, their radios don't reach. And so they're just screaming at us. And so they want to kill my guy. And I'm no, no, no, no, he's an old man. You can't kill him because you'll be in trouble and I'm talking like I can do something, you know. And so they don't kill them. And so we're

held there at, you know, gunpoint. Then the commander comes up, Commander Roberto. And he's got his fucking t-shirt on backwards. And these other guys come out. And they all get their like skulls and shit, they're all inside out. And they're like, he gets up on a little thing. He says, we're the FARC and we are fighting for the people and we defend the laser. And I said, oh, fuck, this is not good. This is not good at all. So I told the, the Mark, who actually spoke Spanish, they said, do not speak Spanish. Do not say a fucking word. Like, just look stupid like me. Just, just smile, right? And they make this speech. And I'm like, I, you know, fine, whatever, you know, FARC, they used to say, I don't give a shit. So there's 176 of these guys, right? They'll march past this and they go down into Panama

because they're going to go fuck up the Indians, right? Because they think they're smuggling weapons, right? And we get led at gunpoint. And so they take us from place to place, the gun point to gun point. And they take us to this just incredible secret hideout with like boulders and butterflies and waterfalls. And I'm like, I can't believe this, right?

I can't believe this in the middle of the jungle, just north of, you know, Colombia. And Mark gets sweet on this fucking rebel girl, And I'm like, oh, God. So this rebel girl, she's like 15, and she goes, hey, you know, is he married? You know, I was like, no, no, yeah, he's married. Yeah, don't touch him. Stay away from him.

So he's, he's, like, hitting on her. And then they make a fucking little, excuse my French, they make a little campsite on the middle of this boulder for everybody to see with the waterfalls in each side. And I'm like, we're going to die. And they put out little candles like it's some kind of commercial for like a romance vacation. and I'm like, I can't believe I'm going to be... Because normally I take care of myself, right? I don't have a lot of...

Anti-Dalmatian. Hi, Sylvie. And I was really worried. And then what happened I heard is like, crack, like a rifle bolt, right? And one of the guys, like, get your ass to the girl. Get your ass out of there. So I kept saying, like, just act stupid.

Just like, do not, like, be nice, but don't be nice, you know? So anyways, they marches at gunpoint at night. which is not fun in the jungles in the mountains because you know those big spines you know and you know i had one that went right through my hand like you know these these bamboo things with spines around them anyways we get to we get to columbia and they put us in this soccer field and there's like five guys in each corner of the soccer field they're older guys and they're had their weapons pointed out and they like put us in the middle under a tarp and they go like okay sleep so So we're just sitting there going, things are not working out very well.

And I keep saying Carlos, he's my friend, give him a call. And in the morning, like 4 a.m., they kick us, and they make us cross a river, and we go into a graveyard. And I'm like, oh, this is not going to work out well. So I'm sitting there, and they come and they get marked. The guy that speak Spanish. And they walk away, and they, I don't hear any gunshots. So, you know, disappears. And then they come back to the girl.

And I say, I'll go, I'll go with her. I'll go first. You don't need to take her. I said, we'll go together. So we walk along, and I keep pretending, I got a time I shoe up, like, oh, I got to take a pass. I got to do this. And it didn't seem stressful. They weren't, they weren't worried that we weren't catching up.

And we turn a corner. There's a bunch of old guys. When I say old guys, you know, 40, 50, and they're all got horses with big, beautiful silver saddles, and they're laughing their asses off. And on the ground is Mark, who's chain smoking. And he doesn't smoke. And he's like, Robert, they're not going to kill us. They're not going to kill us.

And I said, what the fuck has been going on here? So it turns out that they told him that FARC story again. So they brought Mark in. They said, you know, what do you think of the AUC? They're murdering bastards. They're murdering bastards. And like, okay, well, what do you think of the FARC? Oh, they're fighting for the people and everything.

And the guy does this thing. And he's got this giant skull and crossbones. And it says, AUC Beck. And Mark for the first time realizes that we're with this. the desk one. So I'm like, oh, what an idiot. Anyways, they're all laughing and happy. Like, hey, we're just having fun with you guys.

And then they take us one of the most beautiful horse rides I've ever had. We ride towards the city or what we think is the city. And then the last minute we turn left and we're like, whoa, wait, we're good. We're good. We're the city down there. And they take us to this deserted ranch, which has these shallow pits with barbed wire on them. And I'm like, what the hell are those, right? And we're there.

And I'm like, oh, we're kidnapped. We're not going anywhere. So I build a dam. I make like a whole set of cutlery out of bamboo. And after like two days, they come in, he said, oh, our leaders coming. You're going to interview. And I'm like, I'm not interviewing anybody.

Like he said, no, no, no, wait, wait. So this guy named Alamon, commander Alamon, he said, not like the Nazis. I'm just like to be on time. That's, that's why we all. He says, okay, you can interview me now. And he's got this big fat guy with him. He's got a giant Red Cross T-shirt.

And he said, this is our human rights director. And I'm like, it's a fucking Desquant. Human rights director. And you know, the irony of this after being March of the Jungle for 10 days is a little much. And they took all our gear, right? But they gave it back to me, right? And I've been snapping pictures with a little camera that I snuck. Anyway, he's like, ask us about our human rights policy.

And I'm like, okay, so chainsaws are rocks? Which one is it? Like, how do you decide whether you're going to smash nobody's head in or cut it up with a chainsaw? And they weren't amused, but I was just like, fuck you. It's just like I've been in the jungle eating sardines. Well, anyways, so I do this pathetic interview, which I didn't even bother taking notes.

And then they all line up at this ranch. And they all kind of laugh and shake our hands and pat me on the back. and, you know, thumbs up and whatever, and they disappear in the jungle. And then this Roman Catholic priest shows up with two workers, and they take us into town. So, I mean, that was my experience taking a vacation and not doing war zone stuff. That's, I mean, how did you end up, like, getting released? What was the end game?

Well, what's happened. So Carlos Castagno was in a peace talks meeting with the government, Because the AUC are, you know, right-wing representatives of ranchers, and they actually go in and kill the FARC. And then I'd spend lots of time watching them kill people in these little towns. And vice versa, you know, the FARC also kills the AUC. And the group that got us went down into this Indian village where we had actually traveled through,

killed the chief and his son in a very gruesome manner. That hit the headlines. They then, when they finally got a hold of Carlos, he's like, like, oh fuck, Robert Pelton. Is it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So they issued a press release saying I was being held for my safety, so I wouldn't be hitched, uh, kidnapped by the FAR. And when I landed, when I got into Ronda, there was three aircraft waiting for me. There was one from the State Department. There was one from CNN. And there's one from, uh, the police, right? And the police were so nice.

I mean, if you ever get kidnapped, get kidnapped in Columbia, because the police know how to deal with everything. They bought me, they cleared the square and they bought me breakfast, which is like one of the sweetest things because they know exactly, you know, you're decompressing from this thing. And they give you great medical care. State Department, not so much. These little guys with the blue short, sleep shirts from Sears show up. And they're just pissed at me, right?

Because they had to do something, you know? And I'm like, I don't want to go with you. I want to go with the CNN because there's booze in that one. And, you know, I don't want to be with a bunch of State Department guys. But the police begged me to go with the State Department. And they basically held this for an entire day. their little embassy, fortress embassy. And I said, look, I just want a nice formbed.

I just want a good steak. I just want a nice drink. I just want to just like decompress after this experience. And I said, do not let these people talk you into anything. Like, I'm not anti-American, but what they were doing is they were trying to get us to charge the AUC with murder, right? But by testifying. And I said, there's going to be a little man with a chainsaw to show up in your door.

And the U.S. government is not going to be there to protect you. I said, do not mess with the AUC. And so they took my advice. And I said, look, I'm happy to press kidnapping charges. But at the end of the day, it's their war. We were battlefield detainees, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, just let it go. But with the Indians, like, that needs justice, right?

These guys went down to murder these people. They weren't interested in that. They just wanted me as an American to press charges. And I didn't want to get involved in that, because Carlos would come to my house with a chance. He's dead. Anyway, bottom line is that I blame my wife for that. And when I got back, oh, my God, talk about a media thing, right?

And I was going to bring a photographer named Scott on the initial trip. But National Geographic was too cheap to hire him. So he went and got another gig for the L.A. Times. And he got kidnapped on that gig right after we got released, but by the ELN, which is another left wing group, but it's not the FARC. So he came back to LA and I said, dude, you are the only person on earth that had a hundred percent chance of being kidnapped. And that was his claim to. You know, before we get into some of like the post-9-11 stuff, I'd really like to touch on

your time in Chechnya as well. I mean, in this book, there's a terrific segment about your experiences, you know, kind of smuggling yourself into Chechnya and being in Grosny during like one of the huge battles. Can you tell us like when this was, how this trip came about and how you started to make your way into Russia? Yeah. Well, they didn't call it Russia back then. So I, within a very short period of time, I was the guy you called if something needed to be done, right? And there were a lot people that were kidnapped, a lot of people that wanted my advice on this and that. And, you know, I helped out. And one guy reached out to me, his name was Achille Collins, or Akkeye Collins, depending on how you pronounce it, but he calls himself Akil. And he wanted me to bring out his

wife and kids from Chesneum. And the Russians had started to invade the country. If Cheshney is sort of the last country in Europe in the mountains before Georgia, right? It's a beautiful place, very rugged, but it's full of Chechens. It's not full of Russians, right? And at that time, he had fought there in the first war. So this was 2009. There was an invasion in 2004 by the Russians. The Chechens won, right?

So the Russians pulled back. And he was a jihadi. He was trained in the camps in El-Qaeda. Same place as John Walker Lynn, you know, Bin Laden's camp. he was changed he actually used to arm wrestle with the guy that cut uh daniel pearl's head off i mean it's just terrible predigree right but he was a jihadi and um he was an american he had a red beard and uh he was stupid right he just i think he was a sociopath he liked to kill people and his his book i remember reading i think it's my jihad i mean it's a pretty crazy read

it's i got the second book which never got published it's even worse i mean he I think he wanted to die, but it's just, it's a long story. But bottom line is at that time, I didn't know any of this. I just, this guy was an American. He worked with the CIA. He worked with the FBI. He was an informant. He wanted me to go in and get his wife out.

I said, well, I'm going anyway, so you can come with me, right? And he goes to the mosque. He gets five grand or something, buys a bunch of gear. And he's got one leg. by the way. That's the key part of the story here. So he's got this titanium leg that they made him for free and he kind of hops along. And we have to get into Chisina. And it's not like you can just drive there. You've got to go over the mountains in Georgia. So the main gateway was through Istanbul. And Istanbul is where I end up a lot of times going into me terrorists, right? They're all based in that region. And they use these charities, you know, Islamic charities. So I met with the Islamic charity. I explained what I wanted to do, that I was going to go in, I was going to document the war,

and then I was going to come out, and I might bring out his wife and kids. And they're like, okay, fine, but you need to get permission from the Chechens. I said, well, who are you? He said, we're just a charity that brings in Qurans. And I'm like, okay, so I meet with the Chechens. And I remember that meeting was a little tiny room.

This guy, everybody's changed walking, sitting in his little room. This guy's kind of feeling me out. Like, why do you want to go to Chichyne? I said, well, I want to document the war. You know, they can Google who I was or figure out who I am. And these three guys come storming in, bum, boom, boom, they all got leather jackets.

They got those little wool hats, you know, just go straight up like stone pipes. And they go, okay, this is Commander so-and-so. And the commander looks at me, he says, do you want to go to Chesia or Grosney? Do you want to go to Groszni? Yes, I do. Okay, I will make you one promise and one promise only. He said, you will not die until the last of my men have died. is that agreed to i said yes okay let's go and then he said oh wait you got to talk to the mafia

so then i went i met with the georgian mafia and um same thing they just want to know and they said okay when you get to um Georgia go to this hotel and meet with this guy and i said why just just just do it just in that way they know you're with us right i'll say fine and then they're like you have to meet with bin laden's people and i'm like okay now i knew bin lans people from back in the day, right? And they were on a website, and I was down the road from him in Jalalabad. So I meet with this guy in London in a bookstore, and he asked me, you know, who are you, what are you doing?

And I told him, and he said, yeah, I know exactly who you are. And I said, oh, okay, well, then why are you bother asking? He said, well, I just want to know. And he said, you know, I've read your book. And I'm like, oh, he said, 80% of what you write there is true. I said, fuck you, 100% is true. You said, no, 80% is good. It's good.

So I got their blessing because I would be traveling with jihadi groups, right? So you got the mob, you got the Chechens, and then you got a subgroup of jihadis in the Chechens. So it's a mess. Anyways, so I end up going to Georgia, and then it takes a while, but we get smuggled over the mountains. And there's people coming out. Like there's little kids walking out in like three feet of snow.

It's like, holy shit, things look bad. So I go in, and the first night we're there, we're in this gorge, this mountain gorge, and there's this hole. And I go through these pine trees that are covering the hole, and I literally fall like three feet into a pit. And I'm like, fuck. And they're all laughing.

And like, I should have turned left, but I turned right. And they're like, Robert, Robert, come, come, come. And like, everybody knew who I was. And I'm like, okay, so much for sneaking into Chechnya, right? And these jihadis were all, I don't know if they're soldiers, Jihadis, whatever, they're all got beers. And they all knew exactly who I was, which freaked me out because we're talking 1999 in the remote mountain hill. Anyway, so we had to leave there before the sun came up because the Russians would bomb.

So there's these little tiny lot of us, right? So there's this mad dash to get a seat in a car. And like somebody throws like an AK-47 in and somebody throws it out and he grabs the seat and somebody throws an ammo and then the other guy gets kicked out. And so I just sit in the back seat, they just start throwing rifles on me in ammo. and I got about 200 pounds of just stuff on top of me so they can't throw me up. And we start driving and it's nighttime in the mountains and it's icy and just got these little headlights. And I had two drivers and all they said was, I love who I bought it.

And the other guy was, al-haw-a-oh-a-butt. And then this little guy who I couldn't see, he was like, and then they had to teach me Chechen, which is impossible. Like nobody knows how to speak Chechen except Chechens, right? And they would ask me questions and they'd say, So, so good, I don't know, good, no, bad, bad. I said, okay, he's good. And we were driving.

So I fell asleep. And I woke up and there was gunfire all around. I mean, it was just like, oh, shit, we're being ambushed, right? And I look outside and there's like sparks coming off the road. And there's people running around in the headlights and they're firing their guns. And there's this rabbit running around. And they're literally trying to shoot this rabbit in front of the car. And I like waking up about what's,

What the hell's going on? They literally got out of the car and then let off like two magazines on this rabbit, and they didn't kill it. So then I think, okay, I better pay attention. So we're driving in, and then we get to the city above Grozny. You can see Grosny down below. And these scuds come in. You know, the Scud's a big missile, and it's full of fuel, right?

And when they hit, you see the explosion. It's like a dirty yellow thing. It's like a big, and then you feel the boom, like the explosion of this thing. And they were dropping these damn things on the civilian areas, right? And you can see like these trails of flames. You could hear the, you know, shelling, whatever. And there's all these guys walking around like it's a college frat party like, hey, al-Bakbar, blah, blah, blah.

And they're all walking down the fighting grozding. So we get down there and we're in a safe house. Well, they call it a safe house. It's just a house, right? And we meet with a commander. And they keep saying to me, don't get kidnapped. Don't get kidnapped. I said, no, I'm cool.

They're not going to kid. I've met with Benalans people. I'm cool. He said, no, no, you don't know. There's criminals here. And I'm like, oh, shit, there's criminals as well as jihadis as well terrorists. I said, okay. So they gave me a crinkoff, right?

You know, a little tiny AK, the tankers had with a little flare muzzle on it. And every time we'd park or go someplace, and these people would walk up and they'd stick their head in the window. And I'd go like this. And they'd all pull their head out. And they're like, so the idea was that I was worth a lot of money, right? to anybody who wanted to take me. And so we stay in these, the commander's house. And every night they have these garage grad barrages.

And I sleep like a baby in wars. This is a terrible thing. But they sound like a giant walking, because they come down the street like, they make like a double bang, right? And I get up in the morning and there's houses missing on the street. And I slept through it, right? The second night, the same thing.

So we, we go. go out during the day and we, you know, take pictures of the bombing. We meet these old Russian people that have been bombed. And it's, you know, it's a really sad war because it's the Russians basically demolishing the cities before they come in. And I think it's the third night or something, fourth night. We're just sitting there hanging around and this guy walks up, a big guy with a beard, and he's wearing Arab dress and he's got a red kaffia. And he goes, you, come with me. And I look at the commander, like, is it a fucking Arab? And, you know, in Grozny?

He said, just go with him, go with him. You know, he looked kind of nervous. I said, oh, okay. So I grabbed my cameras and everything. I get in, I get in the backseat. And it's like, Jesus, this is all this is a freaking Toyota pickup truck in Chechnya. And there's all those radio stuff in the back. So he's talking to me in Arabic.

I don't speak Arabic. So he puts in a tape. You know, it's that voice singing tape. Like, yeah, they're reading the Quran and off we go, right? And they shell the shit out of Grosny at night. And he doesn't care. He's just driving away. And he takes this on this tour of nuclear bunkers.

And all the real guys are in these bunkers that they built in the 50s. They're not in houses. Only stupid guys stay in the housing. So I go down and I interview all these people. Like the guy was in charge of sewers. He tells me about their tactics with the tanks, blah, blah, blah. And the last stop is the head of Intel for the Chechens, is Abu Masayev. He's a terrorist, right?

And he says, okay, you can talk to me, but you can't write anything down. You can't take my picture. You can't do this. I said, okay, I'll take your picture. Here. Come here. Come here. Come here.

He says, you have been photographed with a terrorist now. So he said, I want you to meet somebody. And he says, you can't ask him any questions? Can't take his picture? And I said, did you think I came all the way here? Just for like a petting zoo? So again, maybe one question. So at that time, you know, I was working with CNN and I had a CNN cameraman with me.

He was a Turkish guy. So they bring out this guy and he's like this kind of skinny, sweaty guy. And he looks like he hasn't bathed for a few days. And he's got a little like maybe five or six days growth. And he says, this is a spy we capture, the Russian spy happened. And said, okay, what's his name? This is Alexi Galkin. And I said, okay, hi, Alexi.

He said, Alexia, how are you? He said, don't know questions. I said, I'm going to ask him fucking questions. I said, how are they treating you? He said, fine, fine, okay. So, how long have you been there? Did they torture you? I said, let me see your hands.

You know, I want to make sure that he's not going to get beaten if he doesn't say what he's supposed to say. And Abu Messiah shows me all the stuff. He was captured with code books, pills, all this kind of stuff, communications. And I said, well, tell me a story. So he tells me a story. And he says he's part of a unit that was linked to the bombings, the apartment bombing.

and they were sent to in Moscow. Yeah, so there were four bomb, there were four apartments that Putin blew up. He put sacks of explosives in the basement and he lit them off and it blew up. This is how we rationalized the invasion.

So, he's telling me the story and I'm like, oh shit, right? This is a guy who's telling me exactly what happened when the war started and what he was going to do here. And I said, you look, you look kind of nervous. You're kind of sweaty.

So I've never been on CNN before. I'm like, okay. But what you're telling me is kind of deadly information. You're basically fingering Putin for starting the war with these bombings. And you're saying you're down here to do the same thing. So. Yeah, his mission in Chechnya was more or less the same to blow up civilian target. Yeah, sabotage.

Yeah. Yeah. But the catch was it was to blame. on the rebels. Right. So he was doing false flag stuff, right? And if you remember in Chechnya, there were groups cutting their heads off of British telecom workers.

There was just a lot of weird stuff happening. It didn't make sense, right? And it turned out that these people working for the GRU, which was the Russian intelligence, to come up with something to generate anger and hate against the Chechen. It was because the Chechens had actually won an election. They were literally a separate country, and they wanted to join sort of,

Europe and they had the OSCE, Mondiular election, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, I interviewed the leader and, you know, I did a good job of covering everything. The only thing is that nobody gave a shit, right? Because it was Chechnya and that wasn't in the news. And in 2000, it was just like war in Europe didn't make sense. Like, why would there be, it's in Russia?

I said, no, it's not in Russia. It's in Europe, right? Look at the map. And so anyways, so we had some hellacious experiences. I mean, I have never been in such close contact with explosives and tank units and, you know, people fighting with the Soviet-style weapons and whatever. And the other thing that was amazing to me was how corrupt the Russian army was. Like, if you wanted to cross lines, you need to buy weapons or explosives. You go down to the market.

You buy anything you want. And the Russians were selling all their weapons. So we had one prisoner named Valet. It's just this farm kid. I call them Pumpkinheads. You know, they're just farm kids from Siberia. They get conscripted. His shoes were spray-painted black with paper tape on them.

And he had to pay his commander money or else he'd send him to the front lines. And so all the commanders make money off of the recruits. So at the end of the day, he defected to the Chechens because he didn't like the beatings and whatever. And there was just a lot of, there's a lot of, you have to read. It's actually a story in a book, you know, Hunter Ham and Heaven. But the picture I got was that this Russian military was just a giant,

uncontrolled, corrupt monster that was there to make money, right? More was money. And so we were told, look, you've got to leave. The Russians are surrounding Grozny. They're going to close the last road. So the guy that we've been staying with, the commander, He said, wait, before you go. He said, you know the problem with this place?

People don't dance enough. So he does this little Chechen chicken dance. I don't know what it's called. And at the end of the dance, you know they all fire, they're weapons in the air. And he said, okay, go. So we go, we run out of gas, right? In the worst part, right?

So now they've got to go back in the town, get the gas, and then we go. So we managed to escape Grosny, And then we end up in the, I think it was Shali or whatever. And in Shali, we broke our axle. We had to pass this line of tanks. It's like literally right out of a movie. It was the most amazing thing.

So we had a driver who was later involved in the Moscow theater thing. Who was, I don't think he was insane. I think he was just like, do you want to go? You want to do it? I said, let's do it. Okay. So there were a bunch of tanks advancing, Russian tanks. And there was a road that went straight across, right?

and the road kind of went straight and it turned to the left. And he said, there's tanks coming there. We can make it to the village, but we have to go now. And if they see us, they'll fire it us. But we've been going too fast so they won't hit us because they're tanks, right? And I said, okay, this is logic. And in the back seat of the lot, there's no doors. So whatever you're doing, you're going to be in that car when you get hit.

So he says, do you want to go? I said, let's go. So we go. It starts accelerating. He's not driving with any lights, right? He's actually covering the choke light on the dash so that nobody can see it. And we get about, I don't know, three or four hundred yards. And I'm sure you've seen magnesium flares, right?

So all of a sudden, up in the sky, about 12 of these magnesium fliers. And it's daylight. It's daylight. And we're hauling ass down this road. And we look over and there's all these tanks. And they start shooting. And we're like, we're going to. to die, we're going to die. No, no, don't worry. He keeps driving, keep driving. He turns to the left,

and yes, we didn't die. We end up in this village, and we have to wait because he broke his axle. He's got to go get parts. And I hear this sounds. Boom, bum, bum, bum, boom, boom, boom, and I'm thinking, wow, that's a good stereo. It's got a lot of bass and highs and there's a lot of shy. So they don't want me, they don't want me to leave the house, but I go out of the house, because I can't stand it. So I go over and I see what they call a Zicker. It's a Shia. Sorry, not Shia.

It's a Sufi ceremony. When somebody dies, they go in a circle. And you might have seen some of these on YouTube or they add rock music or whatever. But it's all these men that just circle. And they do this kind of funny wobble dance. And some people do the bass parts. Some people do the high parts. And they do it for hours.

And it's an amazing sound, right? And we're being bombed. I should mention that. We're being bombed by airport. So the way the Russians work is they have these spotter planes. And if they see like four or five people together, the silver plane kind of wave off. It's a propeller plane. And then you wait about, I don't know, eight, ten minutes.

Then you start hearing and you listen. Now, you don't hear the jet before it drops the bombs, but when they hit the afterburners and they go up. So being bombed randomly, you know, doesn't really matter. So I go up on a hill with these kids. And what we're doing for shits and giggles is that there are some artillery or tank thing is firing shells right over the, through the saddle of the hill where we're sitting, trying to destroy the cement factory. And you can actually hear the shells twisting as they come over our head and they go down there. And the kids say to me, oh, when the planes come,

you wait until they drop the bombs. And if they're oval, you're okay. But if they're round, you run away. So we would sit there and the jet would come and it had two bombs and would release both at once, like 500-pounders, and the jet bug, you're like, and then when it did that flash thing and it did the afterburner, you'd hear the sound, and you'd look for the bombs, you're like, there, there, there, there, they're there, they're there. And it's like, I'm with kids doing, they're like 10, 15, telling me this shit. They're like, hey, run, run, run.

It's like, oh, no, we're good, we're good. So I did that all day, and I thought to myself, either I'm fucked in the head or this is how the world works. Like, I don't know how to explain that kind of mentality where kids, imagine in Gaza, right, they're probably the smartest kids on Earth. They could probably teach rangers how to survive munitions. But this was the reality of being in a place where these people were used to war. So anyway, we got out.

And again, an amazing site. I don't want to tell you the whole book. But basically we have to go back up through a windy mountain pass. And they were firing scud missiles into the mountains. And I saw these round rings of fire. And I'm like, what is that? What is that? It's like some nuclear thing.

I've never seen that before. And what it was with the pine trees, every time they drop one of these scud missiles, it would burn like a ring. So we're driving through the smoke and these big, what do you call it, craters, everything's on fire. And I'm like, oh, God, damn.

You couldn't convey this in a film, right? You couldn't convey just the bizarreness of destruction. Anyway, so I got out and I actually bumped into the famous journalist that was going in. And I sat with her and I explained, she got killed in Syria. and explained there like, are you talking about the French journalist?

Colville, Maria Colville. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I explained about this and that. So she goes in and she wins some kind of Pulitzer Prize just describing how she escaped out of there. Like she tried to get in and she hauled ass out of there. So I want 12 Pulitzer's for my book.

Anyway, so that's just three months out of my life in late 2000. Yeah, I mean, it's an amazing part of your book. And I think between the sure amount of mayhem and the cast of characters that you come across in Grosny, it's just unreal. Some other stuff to get into, man. When was South Sudan? When did that enter the picture for you? Okay. So when they first started Vice, you know, they're Canadian guys, right?

And they had this deal with, I think VH went to do video. And so they called me up and they said, hey, you want to do video with us? And I said, well, that's kind of what I do now, right? And I said, well, how much does it pay? So we don't have any money. I'm like, so why would I do me for you for no money? Like, I can just do me for money and not deal with you. Right.

So they were big fans of the book. And you remember General Butt-Naked was one of the first things they did. It came right out of my book, out of my chapter on Liberia, which is fine, you know. They're very respectful. Anyway, so about 2013, I started getting all these things. calls like hey how do you get into Somalia? I said I don't turn left the fucking ear tree. I don't know.

Why are you asking me how to get into Somalia? Well, we just, we want to send a film film film. So what was happening was that Vice was setting up a news division and sort of a documentary division and they were sending kids off to all these different wars of what I call

child journalism, right? Yeah, they hired a bunch of heroin addicts out of Williamsburg. Well, they were trying to do immersive, I mean, basically trying to do me. They're trying to do world's most dangerous places, right? And send an idiot to a war and see if you survives. And I said, look, you know, it's all fun and gains until you have to figure out how to ship a body home, right? You can get killed doing this, right? And not in very dramatic way. I said, why don't you let me show you how

it's done? And so I met with Rocco Costoro. I met with the guys there. And I said, look, Why don't you have me do, I'll go to the world's most dangerous places. I'll film a rebel group that's never been filmed. I'll add in a storyline, a narrative, and I'll do not only the documentary, I'll write an entire issue of the magazine, and I'll do that within a month. And they're like, bullshit. And I said, well, watch me. So I found a guy who was a Costco manager, but he was a boy, a child soldier from South Sudan.

And he wanted to go back and save South Sudan. So I used that as my premise. And then I wrote an entire magazine or issue, it was about 40,000 words, on this obsession that Americans have was saving Africa, right? This is kind of weird, codependent, enabling relationship. And I go through all the, you know, live aid stuff and the wars and whatever. It's very interesting.

Very well done. And we started our journey, and I'm filming it, everything. And nobody wants us to go in. So I ended up paying like 14,000. brand for someone with a plane just to drop us and leave us. They literally didn't even stop the engines. And I kept saying, okay, I need to get here. I need to get there.

So I found a React Meshard. And I React Meshard, they just tried to kill him like a few weeks earlier. And he fled into the bush. So I was the first guy to do a video interview with React Mishar. And Selvacier wanted to kill him. And what React Mishar was doing was using these spiritual powers to summon what they call the White Army is a fascinating concept. And they're called a White Army.

because they rub burnt ashes on their face, and they're not really soldiers per se. They're sort of like spirituals and operations. So we keep getting closer and closer and closer. And now, Rick Meshire has got a PhD, right? He says, well-spoken man and whatever. And we have a great conversation, probably one of the best interviews they've ever done.

And then I said, like, I need to get into it. He said, okay, we'll go here, go here. Because the spirit has foretold that this is where the White Army will rise out of the swamps. And so our journey to get there is really interesting. But anyway, we get there. And it's brutal. I mean, I don't know if you've seen a guy with like five spears stuck up his ass or a woman with their tits cut off and like knobbed in her head and arms.

It's just like, oh my God, you people are fucking animals. Yeah, war crimes are like off the charts from what people have told me about South Sudan. Well, there was a guy that worked for vice and he called me up. He went into just a dead drunk lock his door, don't come out. And he said, how do you do it? How do you do it? And I don't know. I just film, right?

I interview, I do it. And you got to remember, it's savage. It's savage. And anyway, the bottom line is that we filmed it, I'm somewhat careful not to film the most gruesome parts because it just turns people off. You know, my history of being around squashed and dead and blown up and screaming and murdered people is that if you take it too far,

people's heads just go, tink. You know, there's like a visor that flips. So I try to keep it. it's soft. I try to keep it like, this is what's happening, just so the engagement level's there. So it freaks out my friend, right? And he doesn't tell me then, but I find out later that React Mischar actually had his father killed. So this young man who I take there to save South Sudan, it's just like all the PTSD comes back, all the trauma. And he's like, I'm out of here. This is bullshit. And I sort of narrate this thing like, okay, we'll be tried. We went there and now we're

leaving and there it is. And then I came back and I wrote the article. And then it took me like six months to get paid, which is the famous vice story. But if you ever get, that's just a journalism story, my friend. Yeah, yeah, sorry. I mean, I'm a spoiled breath. But anyway, the bottom line is that I was really proud of that because using brevity storylines, using, you know, sort of the, I don't know, investment journalism, whatever it's called, you know. We covered a war and we told a story and we told the whole history of why that part of Africa always falls apart, what they're really fighting over. And you can Google it, like saving South Sudan, Robert Young Pelt and Vice.

You can watch it for free and you can also read the chapters. They put that in for a Pulitzer too. I also did a really nice piece on a jihadi, an American, Eric Harun, who went to fight in Syria, got caught up in the Arab Spring. I don't know if you caught that. No, not him. Oh, incredible. Incredible article.

It's just it'll make you cry. And there's something about Irish jihadis. Like John Walker Lynn was an Irish jihadi. Akele Collins was an Irish jihadi. And Eric Kharun is an Irish jaddi. They're all gingers, right? And so Eric Haroon's story was fascinating. It was about a guy that wanted to get involved.

And he went and he fought in Syria. And he got caught up with a bunch of ambushes and whatever, ended up with this group. He didn't quite know, Ansar or something, you know, blah, blah, blah. And he did a video and the State Department saw him and like, who the hell's that? He went into the embassy when he came out and he went and talked. He said, I want to talk to the CIA. Like, no, you can't do that.

So they kind of kicked him out, but they're like, wait, you're that kid. So they laid a trap for him. And the FBI flew him back, wrestled him to the ground after interviewing him in a hotel, So put him in solitary confinement. And he's on meds, rather. He had some mental problems. And they just treated him like he was the bad guy. And he kept saying, I'm working for you.

Like I literally, I met with the guys with the Hawaiian shirts, telling them everything I was doing. Here's all my phone calls to my mother. And his parents were beside themselves. And I felt so bad because they don't understand that world, right? Why were their son to want to kill himself and be a jihadi or whatever? And he fashioned himself as someone that was infiltrating, these terrorist groups.

Well, anyway, it turns out that the group he was with that he swore Bayat, it was not El Nusra. It sounded like El Nusra, but it was a different end word, which you can read about. And they finally, they slap him on the wrist, they let him out. I go back for a final wrap-up interview, because now he's a big celebrity advice. He's got a breathalyzer on a 500-horsepower BMW, right? He has to blow into the fucking tube to start this. And I'm like, man, you're going to die.

You know, however you do it. His dad is really sweet. My mother is really sweet. His sister's sweet. And I get this call. And it's from his dad, like a few weeks later. And I don't take the call because I'm busy doing something. And then he calls again.

And he said, you know, Eric's dead. He said he found him in a puddle of blood, like this huge puddle of blood. He doesn't understand why so much blood can come up. to somebody. Apparently, Eric went and partied with some chick and they bought some bad heroin, which either had rat poison in it or something, you know, that makes you bleed out. And he was dead. And I'm like, holy shit. And the things, if we read that article in vice, you'll cry. I mean, it's such a sad article because he wanted to do something and he didn't do it, right? And then you'll find that a lot of people come to me and say, hey, I want to do this and how do I do that?

And I mean, Akiel had a similar trajectory, didn't he? Yeah. O'Keele reached out to me because the CIA had given him my book. And he said, if you want to go to Chechnya, here, this guy can show you. So he knew who I was. I didn't quite know who he was, right? Because one thing I didn't tell you when I told the Chechnya story is that I was with all these Chechen jihadis, and they were all dressed up like hockey players.

They all shaved and they all like giant divets out of their face and they've been in the hospital. And they were told, just tell them you're a hospital. hockey team and they all had the exact same sweater on the exact same pants. Well, one of the guys said to Achille, your wife's in Turkey. She got out and your child. Like, so if you want her, go back. Don't go to it. He's like, no, I'm going to go, fight.

Well, I found out later that Akeel had numerous young wives and children all around the world. And he wanted to be a bounty hunter. So I taught him about a bounty hunt and he wanted to do these cross-border grabs, which are tricky. You got to work. And be able to all. Yeah, and all that stuff is very tricky, but it's all legal, right? It's not like a Sergei Leon movie where they're shooting guns and running away.

So he went and mixed up a car. He was trying to be me doing a documentary about what he was doing, right? So he fixed, they put a 500 horsepower engine in this small pickup truck. He got all his gear and he went down to the mountains of Mexico. and you know if you've ever been in Mexico in a bad place there's only one road in there's only one road out and everybody's just watching you and they know you're coming in and they know when you're leaving so he goes in

he grabs this girl he zip ties her he starts driving out and you can imagine what's going to happen they block the road and they've got all their weapons and they say okay out and untire they let the girl out of the way and then they shot his girlfriend right bum and they hit her right here in the clavocom So she gets knocked down. Akeel thinks she's dead.

But I think Achille scared shitless is what's happening. And so he starts running around. He's wearing all these fatigues and G.I. Joe shit. And he's filming himself, right? And he's got his 8K. He's like, okay, here I am. I'm going to run, blah, blah, blah. And he comes back.

He tells me the story. And I'm like, that's stupid, dude. That's just stupid, stupid, stupid. Well, anyways, he starts coming up with his idea. Now, he's like one of these guys that you introduce him to somebody, and they suddenly become his friend. So like Sebastian Younger, you know, people that I'd met suddenly were his friends.

And I'm like, what are you doing? And he starts pitching them on this story that he's going to go back to this little village and kill everybody to revenge the murder of his girlfriend. Very chattchen of him. And I'm like, journalism doesn't actually work so. That was going to be the big story, right? I don't think it's a good idea, you know.

I just don't think it's a good idea. And he says, starts getting ready and he's going to go down there and he's like you can't dissuade them and he's going to write a story blah blah but he's going to be a journalist murder a interesting job title and um i get a phone call from his girlfriend who's alive she's in a hospital and she's scared shitless i think she's Venezuela or something and i'm like Akila your girlfriend's alive like same story in chesnia right like this thing that you planned is not going to happen so he gets down there he talks to the local fiscal or whatever where he gets his weapon from and he knows what's up

and so he gets busted before he can do any damage right and he's doing two things that you should never do in Mexico one is kidnapping somebody and the second one is having a firearm for some reason those are the two most severe laws you can break in Mexico and he's guilty above them. So he gets tried and judged and gets thrown in the slammer. And he starts reaching out to all the people on what I think called Black Flag Cafe where all my fans hang out. Yeah, your forum back in the day. And he's hitting each one up for like a hundred bucks. So like, oh, my teeth are falling out. I got sepsis. If I don't have surgery, I'm going to die. They're beating me and my leg is infected. So he got like all these people.

plus women, by the way, plus women, sending him money. So I, okay, look, I'm going to go down there. I'm helping a guy

with a documentary. I'm bounty hunting. I'm going to interview you, okay, and I'll give you a thousand bucks. I'm not aware of all this grifting, by the way. So I drive down the Monterey,

I go into the prison, and the motherfucker is in the infirmary. He's not in some, like, you know, Mexican prison. And even the prison is like a motel six. He's got drapes, mirrors, air conditioning. You know, you can get anything you want in a Mexican prison,

including women, drugs, whatever. So he's living the life in the infirmary because they don't kill him, right? And he's with his wife. And I'm like, wait, you have another wife? And you're in, yeah, and he's got a kid on the way. And I'm like, Jesus. Hose in different area codes.

So I got this camera. I'm recording, and he tells this completely fictitious story about how he got there. Like he was hired to assassinate. the mayor and they caught him and they're like, dude, I turn the camera. Dude, stop, stop. This is bullshit, right? He said, well, that's the truth.

That's the truth. I said, no, I know what the truth is. So he tells me the truth, but the truth is not as interesting because he got caught, right? So I go back and there's a woman who had called me and said, hey, if you see a kill, could you give him this package? And so I call her, I said, I'm sorry, I didn't have time to stop off and pick up the package, but he's fine. He's in the infirmary.

He looks perfectly healthy. he's there with his wife and she goes his wife is his wife and i'm like oh shit he's got another wife in san diego that was that i said screw this guy right i'm out of here and uh you know maybe it's my fault because i'm trying to help people and i don't see the darkness or the scam or whatever and that's when i found out of all people sending the money and i'm like okay but yeah yeah and you know Jack Adema, right? Yeah, of course. Jack died of AIDS down in Mexico, didn't they?

Oh, with pleasure. So I never met Jack Adema. I never talked to him. Oh, really? No, I've only had one communication with him. As I said, if you don't stop messing with these women, I'll have somebody in your house within 48 hours. That's when I found him in Mexico, right?

And he was always threatening everybody else. I mean, if you send him a letter, he would sue you, right? He would have his lawyer who was in his cruise with him. And he had these weird little internet people that would attack you and make up stories and whatever. Not a drop. Never touched. So you remember he wrote a book. The reason I know about Jack Adela is that I was with the special forces team in Afghanistan back in early days.

And I get back and there's this book by a very famous author, you know, Robin Moore. Yeah. Robin Moore. Green Beres. Happy Hooker. And he wrote this book. And this book's got a guy on the cover. And I'm like, okay, I don't know who that is.

And I started reading it. And I'm like, I'm in that book. And it's like, but who's this guy, Jack? Right? This is like completely fictitious. And I'm like, maybe that's like a story thing, right? Maybe that's some kind of thing they do to make it more interesting. We should probably point out, Robert, that, you know, to preface some of this, that Jack Adema, I mean, was involved in many things, including in Russia.

And he had some brushes with the American intelligence community when he came back from Russia. I found out about that. But then, of course, in Afghanistan, he was running his own prison system off the books. I mean, I shouldn't say off the books. He was just a vigilante, essentially. He was scamming middle-aged women for money. So he would have that radio show or whatever it was. His mega stolen baller guy, yeah.

Oh, you're such a hero. And, yeah, I'm being held down here. It's terrible. And, you know, I know the tribe that runs that prison. And I asked how much to kill him, right? And I then found out that he was hustling all these women. And I said, stop it, right? And I said, here, this is how much it cost to have you killed.

And so he and I got along only through like these little memos that I would give to his friends to give to him. Well, anyway, so he got out and he disappeared, right? And like you say, it's a very complicated story. It goes on and on and on. And I got to give the guy credit for just completely inventing things, like in getting away with it. So he disappears. And this angry lesbian says something in some comment about this guy that's always fighting with her. And I read her and I say, is this guy look like this?

He said, yeah, that's him, the bastard, you know, he always yells at my dog or this and that. So I start finding out about this guy. And I find out that not all these women that he was hustling money from, he's rotating him in Mexico and he's giving them all HIV. Yeah, yeah, he hooked up with a pool boy, at least what I read or what I saw, there's actually a document. on YouTube that somebody did interviewing Jack's wife and all the horrible abuse she went. Oh, Penny, Penny. Yeah, yeah.

Yes. So Penny and I know each other. Again, I've never met her, but we correspond. And I also helped the cameraman who was involved. It's a terrible story because, you know, he was working for CBS. He was frigging working for CBS doing these jail things.

Anyway, cut the story short. So he's infecting these women with HIV, and they're finding out too late and he's living in this little house down there and penny escapes just by you know because she's he's beating her and all this kind of stuff so i say look jack you are going to stop this or i'll have somebody in your house within 48 hours you know he's a dick so i don't really pay attention to what he says so i then have a friend of mine and i say okay you're going to fly down to Mexico, you're going to go to this bar. You're going to wear like a OEF shirt or something,

you know, something that says Afghanistan on it, just sit in this bar as long as it takes. So he flies down, he sits in his bar. Literally within minutes, a Dima walks up, hey, bro, you're from Afghanistan, you know, you know, and he starts talking. And then Jack goes, hey, watch, come back in my house for a few drinks and da-da-da-da-da. So he goes back into Jack's house. Now, my guy's like, doesn't know what he's, like, this is like much faster than he planned, right? He's got to think about how to deliver this message, right? Which is basically, dude, I can get it inside your house, so they'll do this. And suddenly the cops show up, and things get kind of crazy.

And the sirens and everything. And my guy's like, what the hell? The name is Jeff Shippey, passed on. And so my guy's like, I better get out of here, whatever. So he turns to Jack and he hits him, pushes him right here right in the forehead and says, this is from Pelton. And Jack never left that house after that. He literally died in that house.

So anyway, so it was effective. But we had the greatest scam in the world. So what we were going to do is we were involved in some bounty hunting thing in Cuba, right? And so we managed to meet the Cuban intelligence. And so we came up with this idea that we were going to hire Jack in a speedboat to pick up this person that we were going to kidnap and that we needed guns. Bring guns, guns, lots of guns, right? And we were going to then tell Cuban intelligence, there's this crazy gringo trying to invade Cuba. He's got all these guns.

And then they would have been in jail in Cuba for like 20 years. But that never happened because he's dead. You know, I love these stories, Robert, because they're so indicative. And, you know, if you're in this world, these stories are like kind of like typical. you run into these characters over and over and over again. And it reminds me so much of some of my own experiences that, you know, you inspired me to have, getting smuggled into Syria, and just the whole cast of characters that you meet and some other parts of the world.

It's, you know, it's exhilarating the type of work that you do. And a lot of people maybe don't understand, like, going off on your own. It's not embedded journalism. You're not embedding with the military. you're just going out there and doing it on the ground. And it's exhilarating and it's exciting. But it's also it is bad shit. I mean, it is crazy.

Come on. It's not bad shit because you remember when they first had embeds in Iraq. And a lot of them got killed. They would go. Well, no, but they would go to like some small town paper and say, hey, we're going to make you a war correspondent. So you're going to take this NBC course. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then you get to hang out with this 47th, between cleaning core and you know, Fallujah or something like that. And they would come by and write these glowing stories. Well, I did an embed, one embed at the request of the, God, I can think of his name, the guy's insane. This guy talked to me for nine hours, broke his jaw at the seventh hour and kept talking for two hours. But you can read the story. It's in National Geographic Adventure. But basically, they were going to do human terrain stuff.

And I'm the human train guy, right? So I said, I love this. This is great. So I meet with this Ranger who's a contemporary Flynn. He just sells me. And I said, great, let's do it. And he said, okay, well, you can go. You can hang out. I said, fine, let's go. So they waited. They waited. I said, look, I'm gone. I can't wait for this. In bed thing. And we're waiting for Oprah. We're waiting for this. I'm going. So I go there, and I basically inject myself into the military system. And I'm here to learn about the human train. And so at each step, they're like fumbling, like, oh, I, where's it? paperwork. I don't see this. We better take him over here. So the first thing is I went to

Bargram. They couldn't even find the human trains, right? Like what's the human train? You're talking about the human terrain teams? Yeah, yeah. They were scientists that were going to go out, talk to Afghans, write up papers and tell the commanders like, don't do this because it pisses Afghans off, right? And they meant well, right? Because Petraeus, remember Petraeus was the thinking man's general? Yeah, yeah. All that was going to be science. And, And they had some really good anthropologists who spoke the language, who tried to communicate the culture and the history. And our boy, Wayne Simmons, don't forget about him.

Yeah, and they ran out of those people very quickly, very quickly. So they finally find the human terrain team, and they're in a tent, and the guy's name is Jones, he's from Indiana. So I start calling him Dr. John Jones, and he's this little guy, And he's the military component. And then there are the science components. And now these guys don't want to be anywhere near me because one guy's like a La Ocean language specialist or something. They're just catching the check.

They're making good money. They don't want to talk to me. And they're trying to think of a mission for me. Like we've got to have a stand up a mission. And anyway, to make a long story short, it's like one of those mash things where you're trying to do something that doesn't exist and it just gets worse and worse. So it turns out I ended up being an advisor to the four-star to McKeonan, right? And part of writing this article taught me like, wow, this is not the way to do it. And you remember Flynn was a big fan of journalists being spies or spies being journalists or wherever you want to call it.

So I worked like Flynn. So what happened was I pitched a plan called AFPACs. which was I would have 1,200 guys on the ground, locals, right? Pakistan, tribal areas and Afghanistan. And we would be publishing to the continual stories, because we did it in Iraq as Iraq slager, right? So part of my transition from being a journalist was to actually set up ground networks in wars

that could be read in access, but anyway. So in Afghanistan, they would drop a bomb on a village. And so the one star would say, oh, I got to leave now, I said, why are you leaving? I said, well, I got to go to the head shed. And I said, well, stay. I'll call my guy in the village. I'll find out exactly where you drop the bomb, what the guy's name is, what his phone number

is and where he is right now. He's like, you can do that? I said, yeah, this, that's what I do. So they started tasking us. And I said, no, no, we can't do that. We're just trying to sell you a subscription. And they wanted to give me $25 million to support beef up this intelligence network. and they told me to start working immediately, immediately, right?

So I didn't know anything about a military contract. I didn't want to be a contract. I said, look, we just want to publish things that everybody can access, NGOs, military, whatever. But we're happy to build in ways for you to read it because a lot of those people didn't have access to, like, normal internet and things like that. They'd be zipper and whatever, sipper. And we had an incredibly robust network. So, like, we would do an interview with a terrorist.

terrorist leader and they would send a spy plane over. And in the middle of the interview, the guy we were interviewing, would get up, grab a PKM, lying his back and shoot at this plane. And I'm like, I know what you're doing. You're trying to be smarter than we are, right? Because you know that we are going to interview this guy and you think that you're smarter than we are. I said, but we know where these people are.

You don't. So we had a really interesting relationship. And, you know, I wrote some PowerPoints and I did some, there's a lot of interesting stuff about. stuff about Arbukai and working with the tribes and who's who and what's what. And it was very well received, but every time we would educate somebody. And we used to have fun. We got out to my ranch and shoot guns and stuff like that.

They would rotate that guy out. And then another guy would show up and he thinks he's in Iraq. Let's kill these fucking Arabs. Let's do this. They'll make, no, you're in Afghanistan. And this is a peacekeeping mission. And these are our friends. We're not killing them all.

And start all from scratch, right? And by the time this guy was up to speed and really digging Afghanistan, he's gone too. So I think feelings about using logic, in fact, the military unit. Because the guys from J-Soc said that we were the best source of information, clean information, bar not. Like if you wanted to know something, it was true. It was real. Like you wanted to know somebody's phone number, we had it. So the point was we got into a trap with Flynn because when Bo Bergdahl, you know, walked off the base.

We crossed the line because J-Soc called us, where they call them Task Force Virginia, I forget what they're called, but the spooky guys, right? And they needed to find him, and they needed to get assets up in the air, and they needed to mobilize people and whatever. So I said, sure, you know, where is he taken?

So I called my guys, and I said, okay, who's doing the kidnapping in that part, right? He said, oh, that's, you know, Mullah Shidhead, right? He said, okay, call Mullah Shidhead, ask him if he's doing something. where he's going, whatever. He said, yeah, you got this America. He sold him to Hakani, and driving him on this road, and they're going to wait for the cars to come from Pakistan.

They're going to take him because he just had an American, but he lost him. Remember the David Rhodes? And so Dewey Clarege's guys show up. And I'm like, and our guy's saying, you need to work with these guys. They're the best. They're spies. I said, we're not spies. We're just, we're like us. We just walk around, interview people, and we publish what we do.

We can't do spying. So after about a week of tracking exactly where Bergdahl was, watching go all the way into Afghanistan to the specific building, we were told to wave off. And I said, what do you mean? It's an American, you know, regardless of your opinion of this guy, it's like he's an American soldier. You know, he needs to come back.

And we can do that, right? We have the contacts, the ability, we have knowledge, we have people. Like, no, no, we need you to wave off. And that was the first time that I really sort of felt like the system is not set up. for the soldier it's set up for the commanders because what I was to find out later on is that you know they were trying to smash the hostile part with the peacekeeping part so like whatever oef was or whatever into the ISAF part and Flynn didn't want that he wanted to run around kill people

so by looking for Bergdahl they were able to elevate the their ROEs or whatever even though we know exactly where he was he was in Pakistan and I knew all those people in miram shaw I knew exactly where he was, and I knew why he was being held by Haqqani, et cetera, et cetera. And we could communicate with the Hakkani's. They didn't want that. And so then what happened was a series of fictional narratives started to pop up from Dewey Kleridge's people about how he was teaching the Taliban how to shoot

and he was doing this. And like, bullshit, he's a kid in a cage, right? He's just being held because he's a chip, right? He's this. He's an American citizen, yeah. Yeah, and he's worth X. So when they kidnap one of the Hakkani's, they're going to swap him for this guy.

They don't care who he is. So this then leaked back into the American side of things where you started watching Fox News and hearing these terrible things about what Bergdahl was doing. And, you know, I read those reports. And they used to start off like intelligence report. Then they just kind of trailed off in the jibber. It's just like a bunch of stuff that they picked up, you know, in the marketplace.

And I was kind of angry, you know. And I said, look, this is not right. Whatever was going on there is not. right. So I went to the, um, uh, the jag and I said, this something sucks here. Something is, because these people were forming companies and I, I just felt like something is happening. So a friend of mine wrote a book about it called American Cipher. Yeah. And he, he dug a lot deeper than I did, right? Because I just get pissed and I go off to another war, right? But he, he dug into it and he went into the whole, why this guy, why Bergdoll? How did Bergdoll become like,

a political weapon, right? We have an early team house episode with him all about it. Okay, good. But, you know, like people like Rick Renell, I bump into him on a live shot, and he's get up to talk bullshit about what Birdnell was doing. And I'd confront him, and I said, why are you saying that? It's not true, right? And, well, you know, my sources are better than yours.

I won't say it on their interview, but, you know, I basically told him what I thought of him. But I can see people deliberately lying about this captured soldier. And again, I'm not a soldier. I have no military background, but I know if somebody goes down or somebody gets captured or somebody's in trouble, you get them out. Then you deal with whatever it is that got him into that mess, right? So I kind of left it behind.

And this book, American Cypher, really lays it out nicely. And it shows how they used his predicament for both political reasons and also to keep their ROE's up for their rules of engagement. So anyway, so Afghanistan is kind of like the war nobody wants to talk about. But that was the thing I used to go on TV all the time. I was on Fox all the time talking about what's going on while they're doing this. If you could back up, I'd love to ask you about, you know, the early days in Afghanistan, when you went in there with the Special Forces guys and you were the guy that interviewed John Walker Lind when he was captured.

Can you tell us about what that experience was like? So I've never been with American soldiers, right? I've always been with like rebels and crazy people and jihadis or whatever. So I wasn't that accustomed or familiar with what was going on, but I knew there was fighting going up in the hills there, right? So, you know, I saw 9-11. I knew exactly what it was. I said, they got it right this time, right? Because they tried it before and this time they got it right.

And I said, damn. So I asked the commanders, I want to come over there. And so Dostom was the guy that I tried to see Dostom years earlier. I spent like two months in this little. border town in Termes. And that was when the Taliban were attacking Dostom and Mazars Sharif in, like 2005. And he remembers me as the crazy guy trying to get in while he was trying to flee, right? And he was, so he remembered me.

And so he invited me. So yeah, yeah, come, come, come. So I then started making my way into Afghanistan through Uzbekistan. And I entered there weren't any journalist or like that. And so, and I was hanging out at Dostom's house and everything. and I remember the night it was when Kelly Jangie, I was like living right next to Kalijongi, a place called Kodabark. And Dostom shows up and he's pissed because the shit's going sideways, right?

All these prisoners that showed up. And if you remember the 400 prisoners, it's just all Al-Qaeda guys in Pakistanis. So here I am like, hey, I'm here to hang out with you. And then like these soldiers walk in and they're looking at me like, like, who the fuck is this guy, right? Well, I meet them again when they're going. going in to get Mike Span's body and they're in a truck. And one of the guys goes, you're that guy on TV?

And I'm like, yeah, you got any more hats? And I got more hats. So I hands off these hats. And Bill Bennett, who's now got killed in Iraq, was just so excited to like his favorite TV show guy was there. And they were going into Kalijongi at night. And that was when the, I forget the name of the seal that went in with the SBS. But so they saw,

suddenly realized like, oh my God, there's a, there's a friggin journalist here from National Geographic, CNN, you know, discovery, and we're on a secret mission. So we made friends. They lived in a little house outside of Dostom's late, but I was with Dostom, and I was with two Mullahs. They're part of the government now, but Mullah Nure and Mullah Faisal were like my bunkmates or whatever. And I read their book. I read Mark's book. You know, we became good friends, of course, but You're talking about Mark Mutch. Yeah, Mark Mucci. Yeah, yeah.

And so these guys, like, it was such a bizarre concept that every time Dostin went out, like I was in lead car with Dostom and they were following along. And they were trying to do secret stuff. But eventually, Bill says, like, he knows more about Afghanistan than we do. Like, we just arrived, right? This guy knows his way around, right? And that we became very good friends, right? And they let me film them.

And then I read Mark's book. where the, whoever the top guy was, kept saying, give rid of that guy, get rid of that guy, you know, get rid of that guy. And they're like, yeah, fuck it, you know, this guy's cool. We're going to hang out with him. So when I was with those guys, I, you know, we formed a very tight bond, right? As you do in combat with people. And I saw the pressures they were under.

It wasn't just the fighting stuff. It was bullshit from the up above, right? They had to report back on these little things, like, what are you doing? What's happening? Are we winning? There was all kinds of infighting, but I saw something that I wish every American saw. I saw Americans liberating Afghanistan after the Taliban were kicked out. And, you know, things were really bad in the North, right?

And cheering, crying, throwing money. I mean, they loved America. I mean, Americans and Afghans are very similar, believe it or not, the cowboy thing, right? And this was a perfect story that hadn't been written yet. And what happened was it wasn't supposed to work that way. You know, it was supposed to be the Tajik's in the Pancheer they were supposed to win. They were going to go in. But they're smart enough.

They were draining all the money out of the CIA, right? But up north, we had this incredible battle. Kelly Janky was amazing. I watched that thing and I walked around. They got brains all over my shoes. And it was an amazing battle. And the SPS guys were amazing. The whole idea of this battle was amazing.

And when these guys, when it sunk in that they were part of history, they said to me, they're going to steal our story, Robert. They're going to steal our story. And these are regular guys, right? You know, from the Midwest, wives, kids, they're kind of senior guys in the SF. And they're very honest, nice people. And I said, well, I'll write your story.

I'll write your story. But it's your story, right? You know, if I do your story, it's your story and everybody benefits, you know. And they got yanked out to see Rumsfeld. And they were pissed because Rumsfeld wanted like to get a photo op and all that kind of crap. And there's almost like senile Robin Moore sitting there like, okay, I will sit down. I want to write this book. And they were told, talk to this person.

And they're like, no, no. Their story is very simple. They were 12 guys sent in to figure something out, work with local, in digs, if you want to call them for that, helped them any way they can, get out of their way, and make them appreciate that America is here

to fight beside you for your freedom, right? And in doing that, Dawson was like quoting Abraham Lincoln like in the speeches. I mean, we won, right? We won, right? But the State Department and the agency, like, oh, no, we can't have Dawson in charge because he worked with the Soviets, right?

And all the intel on Dawson comes from Pakistani intel, right? from the ISI. So they immediately started creating this weird story about these container murders. Yeah. And I was in the fucking prison when the containers were arriving.

They literally, my room was there. So, you know, I just happened to be in all the right places and all the right times. So the trucks would drive by and they would drop these prisoners off. And I used to count all the prisoners coming off and I talked to the Red Cross guys and they would tell me why this guy died,

you know, disandering. And remember, these guys have been chased for like a month. month. They're all big gaping wounds. They got cholera, dysent trails kind of stuff. They're in really bad shape. But I'm walking around that prison talking to these guys. We don't have a guard or anything like that. And the story starts leaking out that there was a bunch of guys in containers and they're all machine guns and they were starving or they were sweating. And it's like it's freezing. It's snowing, right? It's like they put them in the containers because they were driving right by

Cali-Jangi and they didn't want these jihadis jumping out and joining. the fight and they didn't want them to freeze to death because they're breaking little shallow commies right and it made perfect sense that they were in these containers now there were some that were suffocated because they jammed them tight or whatever but there weren't sf soldiers firing guns into the container and blood pouring out and laughing which is what john walker lind lind accuses them of uh not really not really like lind was in a different convoy right so so they had to go to kundus to to pick up all these prisoners right but what i'm saying is that the news me, they started getting fed these ideas that there was a war crime.

Yeah. Every journalist looked at war crime, right? And it was very similar to what happened in Mazar in 2005 when they put people in containers, like the Talib that lost and mouth people. They actually did put them in containers, but it was 80 degrees because it was July, right? And they did suffocate and they did die. But this story got all mishmashed. And so these journalists showed up and I'm like, who are you? And oh, I'm from this and I'm that. And well, I was there. You know, I was in the prison. I counted all the bodies.

I interviewed all the prisoners. Like, we don't want to talk to you. And Newsweek did a story. New York Times did it. Carlotta Gall did a story. And I'm like, where are these people getting this information from? And it was a group of Afghans who they used to blur their faces and whatever. And I thought, wow, they're going to burn these guys.

They're going to burn this SF team and they're going to burn Dostom. And my, you know, I call my guys. It's not my guys. But the team couldn't talk, right? They can't go on the media and say that's both. you know, we were here, we were there. I said, I was with them all the time. Like day in, day out, I got photographs.

I got video, I got everything. Like, if they were off doing something bad, I would have known about, right? So that was another very disappointed experience for me after seeing such an amazing, I mean, in terms of military campaigns, you know, the guys didn't fight on horseback, you know, but the Afghans did,

and a lot of Afghans lost their lives. Where did those stories about war crimes originate from then? Well, see, the Pashtuns had been displaced by Dostin, right? So there's little pockets of Pashtuns up there. And they were pissed, and they were going to get back at Dostom. So they would start talking to journalists saying, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, completely unfounded, right?

And this was to build on this idea that Dostom was this bloodthirsty ogre. I mean, one guy said that he was sitting, interviewing Dostom while they were tearing a prisoner and skinning him alive. It's like, no, it's a peacock, dude. Like, he has peacocks. And Dawson wouldn't take this stuff seriously, right? And I said, this is not good. This is whatever they're doing here.

It's like an avalanche of bad. It's the same thing with Bergdahl, right? It's just this avalanche, weird, incorrect, false, defamatory stuff is basically they don't want you in the government. You know, you're the military power. You know how to work Jurgas. You're the one that brought all the ethnic minorities together. You're the guy that's got links back to Turkey. You guys, you know, they don't want you.

They want. some puppet, like they want a door guy like Karzai to do the nasty. So at the end of the day, we kind of screwed the Afghans, you know, by putting in Karzai, creating a centralized government and pretending like, oh, royalty. Yeah, oh, yeah, he should rule Afghanistan because that's how it's done. And they're like, no, dude, we used to be socialists. We spent 20 years as socialist, not as royalty. And we did the same thing in Iran as well, right?

We just did the exact wrong thing. But at the end of the day, I saw how this thing worked out and it didn't work out the way it should have, right? We should have let these people form their own government and we should have hofted. Tell us about, before we move on, I got to ask you about John Walker, Lind, and how that interview came about, how you crossed paths with him. Sure. So remember, I told you, I was right by Kelly Jong-ie, right? I used to watch the bombs come in and the bullets coming out. Where Mike Span was killed.

or an uprising. Yeah, and I never met Mike Spanel. I mean, I was there when they were going to get his body, but that, that uprising happened like the day before. So there were 400 people originally that went into the Cali Jongi, which is an old 1898-Voban fort. Like it's half of a cavalry place and half of an office. So they put these guys in there.

About half of those people were jihadis. like about 250 were actually Arabs from bin Laden's camps. And the rest were just Pakistanis. They didn't give a shit. So when the first grenades were thrown, they shoved them down into the pink building, right? And it's actually a bomb shelter. Like it was built as a bomb shelter

because it's got these really heavy slats of concrete. But down below, there's like four rooms and a big room, right? At the back. So all the Arabs went into the back, right? And they had these grenades around their nuts, So they had shoelaces and they all were carrying grenades. And the idea was that they were going to, when they opened the door, they were going to come up and blow up whoever was out there.

And they were going to grab guns and they was going to start. And they were talking all night. Now, Lind was obviously an Arabic speaker. He didn't speak Farsi or Pashto. So he would have been part of that conversation or at least known of that conversation. And in the morning when they started bringing them up, they began with the Pakistanis. And then when the Uzbeks had to come up,

They know they weren't going home. They started blowing themselves up, and that's when it started. So Lynn was in the line of people, right? And so when Span came out with, oh, I forget the linguist. What's his name? David Tyson. David, yeah. So when they came out, they did this funny thing like, is anybody here speak English?

And they're like, oh, the Irish guy does. And so they dragged out Lynn. And they're like, you know, you saw that video, right? And what are you doing here, blah, blah, blah. They played tough cop, tough cop. and then he didn't say anything, he went back in line. And when the fighting started, a bunch of guys went into the basement. And so I went there the day that it opened up.

There were still bodies everywhere, and there were about 250 bodies left. And I said to Dostom, I said, bring those asshole Talibs with us, right? Maybe they can talk to the guys in the basement. So we brought the Talbs with us. And they're like, oh, we don't know those people. They don't speak our language. which, you know, they're Arabs. So I said to Dostom, you know, I might know some of those people.

So when they come up, let me know, and I'll interview them, right? So I don't know how long they're in that basement for. So I get a banging on the gate. I'm staying with the SF guys in the palace there, whatever it's called. Go outside and there's all, there's two trucks and all these like shivering guys and they're all wearing corduery jackets. And I'm like, why are they all wearing cordaray jackets? There's the UN gave it to them, right?

But there's a truck with all kinds of smashed and screaming and bleeding people in there. And at the time, Lynn's in the back, right? And there's guys with like, you know, sucking chest wounds. And there's a dead guy over here. And they're screaming, the broken legs. And so I'm talking to some of these guys. And so I started pulling some guys out, not the wounded ones, but the guys that weren't wounded. And they thought I was going to kill them.

So I said, okay, look, this is just a little too tense. Take them to the hospital and we'll sort it out there. So they took them to the hospital. And then about, I don't know, an hour after. that one of the Dostom's guys comes running over and said there's an American there. Now I'm thinking well maybe that's Mike's band maybe that's like an SF guy. I don't know so I go to grab my camera and the guy says well why don't you bring something for you one of your countrymen didn't he? I said yeah you're a good idea so I bring some cookies and stuff like that so I go there and the

hospital it just stinks right it's really cold out but it's just got this little stove and just a stench coming out of these people and they're all comatose they're all half dead and you know I'm filming it all you probably saw it in my mind. in my video. But there's a guy in the bag is whacking this guy in the head saying, what is your name? What is your name? And I said, so it's this guy. And I say, let me, let me ask the questions, doctor. So I started talking to him and I started filming him. He doesn't want to be filmed. And I say, well, tough shit, I'm filming you. And my goal at that time was like, I need to get this guy on tape because he's going to disappear. If he's an American and he's

with jihadis, he's not going to be around in a week or so. So I asked Bill the come with me. He's the medic. And we, what are we going to do? So we figure, let's get him upstairs. Let's get him upstairs and get him stabilized and figure out if he's wounded or whatever. So we take him upstairs and I let Bill do his thing. He knows he's a medic. He's got his Mr. D.P. had him. So he's kind of feeling him about, now he's hypothermic. Like Linda's hypothermic and he hasn't slept for days. So I'm talking to him and I'm just keeping him awake and he's pissed at me and he's like, no, you cannot film me. What's your parents name? Give me your parents' name. If I want to talk to my parents, I'll talk to the Red Cross. There's no Red Cross here. You're in a,

hospital. So we give them some Hespan, right? The Hespan is just fluid that goes into your veins and it rehydrates you. And he kind of comes alive and he hears me asking him questions about jihad and camps and the 055 Brigade. And he figures like, oh, are you one of them, right? Because why do you know all these names and these numbers? And so then I do my interview for an hour, right? And I talk to him. And I go back to my room. Actually, we take him back to him.

He comes back with us, and he sleeps in one of the guys' beds. And then in the morning, in his little jammies, they take him off to the CIA. And that's when his life becomes miserable. But when I was with him, he was doing fine. So I called CNN. I said, I just did an interview with an American who was in the basement of Kelly Jungi. And they go, yeah, yeah, sure. I said, no, not only that, he's a jihadi.

And he was trained by bin Laden. He's at his camps at Farooke. And they're like, yeah, sure, click. I said, okay. So then Newsweek does this little thing where they interviewed him for like two seconds on the back of a truck. And CNN calls me back and says,

that guy said, yeah. So I send him like a minute of tape. And back in those days, you did it frame by frame and like dial up internet. So take all night, send this thing. And again, I'm not in America.

This is December 1st, right? But the main thing is, that this is an American telling people that he's a jihadi, he came here for this, this is exactly what he wanted, and basically go screw yourself, right? And to me, it's my second Irish jihadi, because I've already met an interview to Kiel. So I kept saying to him is you're going to disappear.

Like, if you don't reach out to your parents or do something, you're gone, right? And you didn't care. So that story became a big story, but I wasn't here, right? And they wanted me to drive to Kabul and to do live shots. I'm like, no, I'm having fun here. I'm hanging out with my green bray guys

and we're going to do shit and blow stuff up. So then I was filming all this stuff. So anyway, after about a month, I come out of Afghanistan because the guys are gone. It's no fun. It's just soldiers everywhere that don't know anybody or anything.

And I get to CNN headquarters in London and they're like, keep me up all night. And I just want to go home for Christmas, right? I was just like I've been in Afghanistan for over a month, and I just want to go home. But they make me do these live shots, like 24 hours straight. And half of them are criticizing me for being like a terrorist lover because I said something about jihad and that's like, I must be a terrorist.

And the other half is like, wow, what an amazing scoop, right? Like how the hell did you do that? I'm just, I'm there, right? I'm just in the middle of things. Anyway, I get them to book me a ticket home. And one of the editors is looking at my tapes. he goes, what are all these soldiers? And I said, those are special forces guys.

I said, those special forces? I said, yeah. I said, you've got tape at that? I said, yeah, yeah. I had no idea the impact in America about these secret, you know, green beanies running around. And they canceled my flight home. I'm like, no, I'm not cutting anything. I'm not telling anybody anything.

I'm not doing any story unless I clear it with the guys, right? And so I said, I'm going out for a coffee. and I just went straight to the airport and flew home. And I think they still tell that story at CNN, but I was done, you know, like I wanted to go home. Anyway, that story then got stolen by multiple people. And I would get calls to go into Hollywood to meet with guys, and I'm like, aren't you some goofy actor that's like 6'4-6

and aren't you some scientist? What the hell do you have to do with this story? So have you talked to the guys? Have you cleared it with them? And the story is really cool. It's about these guys fighting the top. and the bottom, right? It's like classic, you know, team of 12 guys

being told to do this. And they're like, screw you, we're going to run this war the way we want it. And it's like, it's a, it's a monument. It's a 12 experienced, decent guys doing exactly the right thing. And no drama, right?

And then the State Department comes in and just fucks it up and we're there for 20 years, right? And nobody can figure out how we got here, how we get out of here. And I'm like, so. And so as, as, an addendum. John Walker

Lind was just recently released from prison, wasn't it? Yeah, so, so the, the sad part about John Walker, Lynn, is I told him, look, you're kind of a dick, but I'm going to go and I'm going to call your parents and I'm going to tell you how they found you, what condition you were in,

because I just want to let know that we, you know, we did the right thing, right? And that whatever the CIA does, none of my business, right? So I called his mother every day for a month. I said to her, I interviewed your son. I just want to let you know, the conditions and whatever. Never called me back.

Then I got a call back from her assistant saying, well, she's very busy. She doesn't have time for this and whatever. And the next day I saw that she did a piece in the San Francisco thing about how she loves her lawyer, Brosnan or whatever. And I'm like, you know, fuck these people. So I just was like, I'm out of here. And then Brosnan calls me. And he starts threatening me.

And I said, you don't want me to get me involved in this case. You don't, like, of all the people on this planet, you do not want me testifying as to what John Walker, Lind, is. He's a member of al-Qaeda. He's not a member of the Taliban. And I can tell you with great specificity and expertise that he went there to kill people. And that he's exactly the guy that should be in Gitmo.

He's exactly the guy that should be hung at dawn, blah, blah, blah. And I said, but you don't want me on that trial. So he gets into it, right? And I'm like, okay. So all the guys, all the SF guys get subpoenaed, and we're all sitting in a hotel the day before he does a plea deal, right? Now, remember, he's the only guy. Like Yasser Hamdi was another American there. He just let him go, right?

So I told Brosnan, I said, I really don't think you want me involved in this trial because I don't hate the guy. I just, I have to tell the truth. Well, anyways, he took a plea deal for 20 years. Terrible, terrible decision, right? And I don't know, he got out of prison. Everybody called me like, oh, what do you got to say about the guy? He's just another dumb jihadi I bumped into, right? Just another guy trying to do something stupid.

They got caught and pay the price. I talked to the guys that are like smudge marks on walls. They tell you the same story. They want to go die for all, you know? Anyway, so I didn't really invest myself. I never wrote a book about it. I didn't really get involved in his life or trial. You know, they've interviewed me on some documentaries and stuff like.

like that, but it's just a kid that did a dumb thing. It's a wild, just another wild interlude in your career there, Robert. Before we get on to some of the more recent stuff, do you want to talk about the Philippines at all? The Philippines. You're talking about the show? Well, I mean, you told me that you had a Philippine story when we spoke earlier. Oh, I was just saying that when I got my discovery, contract to do series of specials on dangerous places, I said, well, where do we start?

Where do we start? So I wanted to start with a big bang. So I went to the Philippines and I did two world exclusive interviews, one with the guy that killed the special forces guy, the small guy. Nilo, whatever's name was, killed the guy they named, you know, McCall is a building there they named after him. Oh, is this the guy who's killed in the bombing? No, he killed.

He's assassin. Like the motorcycle assassin. Oh, shit. You're talking about Nick Rowe. Yeah, Nick Rowe, right. That was way back. That was in the 80s. Right.

Well, I'm a way back guy. But the point is that this is the guy that did it. In other words, and everybody's looking for him. He's a sparrow team, yeah. Yeah. So then I went up to the north to do the first interview of this communist rebel group on the Negroes Islands. The NPA.

And they take me up in the mountains. And then we get attacked by special forces as I'm filming these guys. And then I do, I go out to the Spratley's, you know, all this kind of stuff. And the only point I want to make about the Philippines is that one show that I did for Discovery, there's like a whole year's worth of scoops

and like never before seen interviews and whatever. And then the second one was Massoud, right? The second one was my journey to meet Masood. And again, it's a great thing. documentary. You see me stranded at the top of the mountain pass and I go see the Taliban, I go see Massoud, I interview them.

And those things didn't have any relevance until 9-11, right? I did these in the late 90s. I did another one in Liberia. I went, remember I was telling you about the Lurred rebels? I went in and surrounded by Charles Taylor. It was a really gruesome thing. I did sort of a three-parter

on Chechnya, kidnapped and something else. And I did Columbia. I did it great, great. So, So outside magazine called me up and said, oh man, you got to write for us. You do good stuff. We're going to have this stuff, you know, this adventure stuff. And then they called me back and said, no, we got a better idea.

We're going to write about you. And I said, yeah, so that way I got to do the same shit, but then I don't get paid, right? Is that what you're saying? So they hired Tim Cahill. And I didn't know this at the time, but I have two reputations, right? I have a reputation as a guy who just makes shit up,

never does any of this stuff. And it's not possible, you know, blah, blah, blah. I have a guy, I have reputation for people that work in this business is like, if you get in trouble, call Pellon, right? Like, this guy knows people. He knows how to get in and out of whatever. So Cahill was assigned to sort of poke a hole in my reputation as the danger guy. Because you remember, there's a whole group of people like, oh, this guy goes to war zones on his vacations.

It must be bullshit, right? So I give him a choice. I say, where do you want to go, Tim? And Tim's a great writer, by the way. He writes funny stuff, and he does adventure, but not the same kind of business. I said, you want to go to Grosny? You want to go here? He said, well, I speak Spanish.

What about Colombia? I said, great, let's do Colombia. I said, I'll take you to meet all the rebel leaders. We'll go hang out with the police, the Marines, and we'll go out and do all kinds of crazy stuff. So we go down there and I interview every leader of the FARC, every leader of the FARC. It's never been done before.

And we go out drinking with Mono Ho-Hoi, who's the deadly gun. And we're drinking shit. And he's looking at my Mr. DEP logo and there's, and they're Marxists, right? And he wears a little beret. And we're talking shit. And I said something like, don't pump that Marxist sunshine up my ass. And the translator didn't want to translate it.

But he said, Robert, I think we should go now. I think we should go now. And then he started, we were drinking marinda and vodka, absolute vodka. And he's like, how'd you like to stay here for a long time? How'd you like to like stay here for a very long time? time. Like in a tiger cage? It just, it wasn't working out well because once they start drinking,

it turns into an asshole. Anyway, he's dead now. So we did that and already, Cahill's like, holy shit, was that a world scoop that we just did, you know? And we did another one. We went to see the death squads, but they wouldn't talk to me because they're busy killing people. But we got some footage of them.

And then we did this thing about the pipe bomb. They put a pipe bomb around a woman's neck and that they, detonated. And we did about, we went out with the Marines trolling for Farrak. And so we come back and Hayhill writes this very funny, glowing piece about like, this guy like in the, in the two weeks I was with him did all these stories that any New York Times guy would like kill for him. And he made fun of me. And the guy that made fun of me turned out to be a very good friend of mine. But the point is that I had a certain point there being celebratized. which I don't like.

You know, I don't like to be sort of written about as somebody who's famous. I'd rather just look at my stuff and can talk to me, but it's not like I'm trying to be famous. And I then began commuting to war zones, like literally back home, change your clothes, kiss the wife, kiss the dog, chuff, horrendous things. And I needed that decompression time, right? And as you know, PTSD and all these things are very serious things for exposure to intense, tense violence, stress. And I'd get home and I could,

and I'd be kind of, you know, snappy and angry or whatever. But I realized I had to take at least a week off just to, people weren't trying to kill me. Like our backfire was not like a shot from somebody and whatever. But I started to not like it that much. You know, like you go war after war after war. And they're all telling the same thing.

Where is everybody's America? Why isn't the UN saving us? It's because nobody gives a shit about your war. That's why I'm here. If I show up, nobody gives a shit about your war. So I then thought, how can I use this skill in a more productive way? And that's when I started creating ground networks, right? So Easton Jordan, who got fired, quit CNN, whatever,

I had gone to him and said, why don't we do a thing with the locals? Instead of flying in all these good looking guys with poofy hair and put him up in hotels, why don't we just hire the guys that they hire to get the stories? and I'll hire a bunch of PhDs and Eribus and whatever to do the editing and the fact-checking. So we did this thing called Iraq Slogger. And I don't know if you actually read it or saw it, but it was like your hometown newspaper, but it was Iraq, right?

So we made some money. And then I did it in Afghanistan. And then I got burnt in Afghanistan because they wanted me to become a spy, right? And it kind of worked within this disinfo because the best thing to fuck up is the good stuff, right? Like if you trust somebody and you start injecting bullshit it in there, then that's what they want. I couldn't do that. And Flynn actually told me to set up a company under another name.

He'd give me $10 million. And they start throwing me contracts. And I'm like, I can't do that. I can't do that. And so I then I got pissed. So I went to Somalia and I set up Somalia report, which was about 700 people reporting. I used to go in all the pirate towns.

And I was with the old EO guys up there in Puntland. And then I started working at Moas. And that was a ship that rescued migrants off the coast of Libya. And I built that charity up. I did, brought all the journalists in, you know, got them up and running. And that thing was fully funded by the Red Cross, but it was also becoming like an expressway for migrants to get to Europe, right? Because there were like 12 ships that were picking migrants up.

And they literally had their locations, the migrants had their locations programmed on these GPSs. So, you know, right now I focus on books. I'm still writing the SF book. And I was waiting for Mark and those guys to write their book, Robert. And I'm doing a documentary about a really wacky period during the Trump administration where Jared Kushner had this secret billion dollar slush fund to do all these weird coups and all these sort of regime changes, like in Jordan, Libya,

the fake tanker tanks, the fake tanker attacks off of Fugira. And I stumbled across this because once again, you know, people call me up and they tell me things and they want to know what the hell that is. And I've done all this from a hack of Jared Kushner's iPhone 7. And I've been working on this for four years now, right? And it keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. So I think I'm more into these complex stories that show health. things work at the highest level. And, you know, Libya is one of my favorite countries, because

countries, because they go out and fight the ward during the day and then they solve all the problems of the world at night, right? And they never actually sleep. But it's a beautiful country, but people want that country because it's got so much oil and it's still close to Europe or whatever. So you remember that whole opus thing that the UN tripped over. Well, that was my entree because COVIS, who I think you know, Kobus Klausens. I don't know him personally. I know. who he is. Oh, well, he's a good friend of mine. And he called me up when I was in Libya saying my friend signed on for this crazy mission to take over some oil refinery. And they're all going to get killed. It's going really badly. And that's literally a couple of days before they got in those

rafts and went all the way to Malta and disappeared. So I've been spending the last four years chasing down that start. And that's going to be a wild one. It'll be a book in the documentary. I mean, I'd love to hear you expound a bit on that when you talk about a million dollars slush fund. I mean, where did the money come from under what authorizations was this done? Well, it came from NBC's personal account. So you remember when they began the White House, there were a lot of foreign entities showing up at Trump Tower. They were pitching whatever they want to pitch. There were Russians.

There were Saudis. They're Emirates. And Trump's not a very sophisticated guy when it comes. the foreign policy, and he brought in Steve Bann, and he also brought in Jared Kushner. But Jared Kushner was just an advisor. He didn't have a cabinet. He didn't have a budget, didn't have any operating funds. So he was busy cooking up things with MBS and MBZ.

And they began to recreate the old Iran-Contra model. You remember there was a business model that was created that would hatch the gap when the CIA was denied funding in the 80s. So that model was instituted and there were a bunch of people pitching like, you know, private CIAs, Venezuela coups, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they were open for business on that as long as somebody else paid for them. So, you know, I don't want to give away too much except to say that this did happen. And the things that Jared's doing in the Balkans now, I spent a month in Serbia interviewing people about the previous one that was done with Mohamed Dahlan, where, again, you know, government-owned property becomes privatized, outside investors comes in,

UAE money comes in, and it's a way to flow money to those leaders of that country. It also benefits the country to a certain degree. I mean, but we're seeing this. The thing I have to ask, I mean, Iran-Contra, of course, took place against the backdrop of the Cold War and fighting the Soviet Union. This construct that you're describing, is that merely for personal enrichment or is there some other objective there. No, there is a Cold War.

So if you look at Arab Spring in 2010-ish, 2011, 2012, you had a populist uprising saying, why are families running countries? Why is one family in charge of every resource that comes out of the ground? And then this movement began in Egypt. And it also has like tendrils in terrorist groups and things like that. But it's basically socialist, vamping of Arab structures, tribal structures. And these guys, the leaders realized that how tenuous their hold was on the wealth and the

oil and the control of those countries, because they don't have good armies. They don't have military infrastructures. They have to use mercenaries. And that then began, we don't see it because we don't care, right? But you watch how Arab Spring started toppling leaders and creating democracies. They started untopling those people and putting in strong men all across North Africa, right? You see the same program in Africa where you're seeing all these coups. Well, they're engineered by other countries who go in.

They do analysis. Same thing they did with Cambridge Analytica. Like who's who, what's what, who could be the leader, who could overthrow this guy. And they destabilize them and they turn them into sort of strong men things, which means you deal with one guy, one family. you bring in Russian mercenaries, you give them money, you give them loans, you give them banking, money, laundering, whatever, you get contracts for assets. It's a very simple sort of colonial 18th, the 17th century idea. And this is all part of what they call the 1922 plan, which is something that Tenoon cooked up.

And this was a way to make sure that families could run these, what's the right word, kingdoms, without being disturbed by social, or populist uprisings by just basically pushing out the safety barrier and making sure that strong men, and this is what this war you're seeing in Sudan, right, in the war in Libya, is they're reconstructing, they're fracking the colonial system in Africa and North Africa and the Middle East. And it's also part of what you're saying in Gaza and Israel. It is much easier to deal with a strong man where you just make one phone call, you write one check. Now, they were doing that with Trump, within the Trump administration. They were we're saying we want to do this.

Russia wants this, UAE wants this, KSA wants that. Okay, we'll do that if you do this, right? Saudi Arabia, you want a security agreement, you need to buy X billions of dollars with the weapons. So we don't see it as much because it's a little bit more complex, a little bit more historical, but that is proceeding now. And that's why we're seeing what they call the liberal democracy, you know, like in Hungary.

So I see Orban at CPAC, right? What's Orban got to do with CEP? PEPAC, right? Well, these are vassal states or proxies of Russia who are re-engineering the politics so that you can vote. It just doesn't matter who you vote for. But these people are aligned with sort of what they call the multipolar world where there is no one U.S. structure. So, you know, we're getting too deep into politics. But when you write a thousand page book, you start learning things, you know, in the aggregate. But I mean, the way you kind of describe it is that it really is sort of a globalist mentality

in the sense that it's really not about Russia or America. Right. Well, one family, one... See, the world is full of transnational entities, like the Roman Catholic Church, right? It's a transnational entity. It has influence over millions of people. Russia seeks to do the same thing with oligarchs,

and they have control over, you know, energy. They have control over countries. We used to practice that a lot more, like in Latin America and places where we just replace the leader because we don't like it. But, you know, China and the Gulf states are pushing back because they have to turn money into political influence. And, you know, Saudi Arabia is a fascinating country, as is the UAE. They can become orphans very quickly.

You know, under Obama, we didn't want to talk to them. We wanted Arab Spring to take over and kick these people out because we wanted to deal with democracies, but in an Arab tribal structure, it's really hard to have a democracy that functions smoothly, right? So they've begun reversing that process, putting in strong men, you know, coups in Burkina Faso, the Janjooid leader, Hameti, Haftar and Libya, so on and so forth. And they're global engineers. You know, they engineered these things to happen so they can then go in and invest. And what they're buying are distressed goods. So if you overthrow a country, you screw up the infrastructure, there's a gold one that doesn't work.

better we take over and run it than Al Qaeda, right? And you're seeing this throughout the Sahel in the Sahara, where there's only a resource, there's no country, there's a resource, there's a bunch of people who live in a city, and different groups take over these resources. I spent a lot of time in Chad, right, in that area in Central Africa, and they're fighting over artisanal minds, which we don't even care about,

but one artisanal mine can supply tons of gold, you know, a year. And if you control them, you have a transnational business, which is like a state. So you remember Coney, right? I did that thing to find Coney. And I've been tracking Coney since the mid-90s, right? So about three months ago, I reconfirmed what Coney was. I got a picture of his kid. I knew exactly what village he was in. And he runs a militia. He works with Al-Qaeda. And they, ADF, the guys that put a bomb under my table in Uganda. And they guard our artisanal minds, and they're fighting against Wagner, who was trying to grab all these artisanal minds for the UAE. And we were going to set up a deal where Coney was going to come in and we were

going to talk about working together and blah, blah, blah, setting up a PMC, which would have been a great book ending, right? Whatever. And they didn't, the militia that I worked with in Chad had no idea there was a $5 million reward for Coney. And the Russians had no idea there was a $5 million reward. Now, it's not that easy to get, right? Like a Russian can't walk up and say, give me $5 million, but in their heads and their African heads, I mean, Russian African heads, they're like, oh, find Kony, get $5 million. Okay, let's do it. So they had a firefight and they chased them off. So now I'm going to go find Kony again. The point is that we don't see those transnational lines, right? So when you talk about the Muslim Brotherhood, there are lines that flow through Turkey, through Qatar, through these small

countries and large countries. And then you see the sort of the UAE rat line and they're slowly expanding their influence throughout Africa and then following it with investments. And I will say this without jeopardizing it, that we are also now finally involved in that PMC thing that I warned about in Licensed to Kill. We are now using corporations to extend security, military, intelligence, logistics into Africa that don't look like the military. But if the military needs to use those resources. This is a very 60s concept, by the it's not new. They can avail themselves of those logistics and resources, do what they have to do and then get out. I mean, that's

pretty wild. But I mean, we're seeing these things happen. We see these global events. I think you're right that there's at at least some sort of transnational discipline that needs to be looked at rather than just looking at these countries and piecemeal. It's hard for us. Americans are not good with history. And when you talk about Hamas, for example, most Americans can't tell you how Hamas was created, right?

It was criminal because we screwed up. Like you remember Mohamed Dockman was running Fata, and they were basically a security apparatus in Gaza that worked with the U.S. and Israel to keep the lid on, and they kept the lid on a little too tight, and Fata got kicked out, and then Hamas came in. But Hamas barely got elected, right? It was not a popular movement at all.

And then Netanyahu became tasking Hamas as a way to drive division between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Gaza. So they were cooking, like in a kettle, they were cooking Gaza. And then when Kushner and the UAE and this sort of Abraham Accords set out from the beginning to create this pressure cooker, because there was no Palestine in any peace deal that was ever written, the secret, which is, which I'll go into my book, and my documentary, is that there was supposed to be a coup to take out the King of Jordan. And he was going to install somebody

who was gonna slice off a giant chunk of Jordan to create the new Palestinian homeland. But the king very wisely was like, no, you're not doing that. So he's managed to be tipped off three times by the agency on coup attempts. And the last one was in 2021. The first one was in 2017. There is those weird movements within the royal family,

and people being arrested, moved around. Yeah. And by the way, the King of Jordan is very solid. Like, he's got a great security apparatus. And he is, let's just say that something goes on in his country, we make sure that he knows about it. The GID.

So the point was, is that we had one agenda within the Trump administration, and we had another agenda within what you want to call deep state, right? Slow rolling stuff, tipping people off, doing whatever. That will probably be revealed in the next six months. that we've been working hard. I say we, you know, the nameless, faceless people that do security have been revamping how we do business and how we deal with African elements and North African problems.

But, I mean, the way you describe it, I mean, is this a function of the United States government? Or rather, is this a function of Jared Kushner enabling the UAE sort of like outward-facing, as an outward-facing maritime nation? So the answer is very simple. So there are professionals who you know have extremely high IQs, very smart, come out of special operations that come up with solutions for things, right? And those were being enacted at the highest level. And then you have people inside the White House who have a completely different agenda and

nothing to do with American security, basically selling us out, whether it's, you know, Bannon or Kushner or whatever. They're trying to cut deals with bad people, Russians and Emirati's science. Saudis, whatever. And then you have the middle sort of military, just trying to deal with, what crisis are we dealing with today? Are we fighting World War II in Russia?

Or are we doing counterterrorism in the Philippines or whatever? And we just seem to be reactive, right? So there are people doing strategic stuff and there's people being reactive. And then there's people that get elected. And if you saw Johnson for six months, Speaker Johnson, block aid to Ukraine, right? Yeah.

To me, I get it. 70% of that money goes right back into American pockets, right? Through foreign military sales. Whether it's some small town that makes Haimars, you know, whether it's the artillery shell factories you're building. And it's a lesson to any country that don't tread on us, don't invade countries because we'll push back, right? So when someone that is elected at that level, was he third or fourth from the presidency,

basically gives a solid to Putin. I think there's something inherently wrong with our government. I mean, there's something really, really wrong. And I don't know why he thinks that way. I don't know why he supports Russia. I just think that all the guys that go out at night and kill people and drop bombs and these guys that are like trying to defend us from bad people are let down by that, you know. And we do have skimped again.

I have to ask you, too, since we're here, we've come up on this topic. How does Eric Prince dovetail with all of this? Well, I can't talk about Eric Prince, but if you have Google, you'll find out more than you need to know. You know, I wrote a book about PMCs, right? I wrote a book about numerous companies and also mercenaries and how this new structure fits in to how people move faster and more efficiently. And it is happening, right? I mean, if we want to support a country in a time of war, we're going to use private military companies. They may not be manpower.

That may be logistics. They may be this or whatever. And I think Eric was at the forefront of that. You know, he saw that need. And it exploded during Iraq because we needed a lot of everything right now. And the question is execution. So as we get into this, there's a whole bunch of, like, funny sounding companies that are doing huge things in Africa, right? And underneath these contracts are like $5 million penny cash.

Look at the ISR contracts where they can take money of any color. Like there's just a lot of money that was designed for counterterrorism and counter narcotics being shoved into this new PMC structure. So I feel good about that. I don't feel good about our foreign policy in which it's like jerked back and forth by special interest donations. Right. And so that's my concern right now is that I could write a thousand other. a thousand page book on how things work and what to do and how to solve them. But if some guy gets elected from some state and he gets some Dosh to block something

or to say something stupid and people die in Ukraine and keep on, I was in Ukraine. I went to all the front lines. And I get the tonality, the importance, the intensity of that war. And it's an attritional war. So any shell that goes out, you need another shell to replace that, right? And then you need a bunch of shells behind that. And we're now fighting a World War I. battle in World War III, and it depends on manufacturing and keeping logistics flowing, right?

So a six-month gap is almost unthinkable. Yeah, yeah. And we're there. I mean, it's happened. But we don't talk about it. That's what I'm saying is right now, it's 1936, and we're trying to gear up for a major conflict that requires factories humming at full capacity 24-7 to generate weapons of war. And we're just sort of going like, well, why are we giving money to Ukraine?

I just give it to Russia. It's like Putin's old. This is his last play, right? And I was in Rothening in 1999 and I saw the early Putin, right? I knew exactly what he's trying to do. And he's not going to stop. It's not going to stop at Ukraine. He's going to keep going as far as he can, right? All over to the sea. So, and he's already attacking this country anyways with what they call hybrid warfare, right? You know, he's degrading the quality of our relationships with each other. He's degrading the quality of our political structure. So, I see the world being much more dangerous, even though there's less wars. Right, that there's like a greater potential for it to really go hot.

Right. And I wasn't around in the 30s. I wasn't around at the turn of the century before World War I, but every major conflict is usually preceded by a sense of calm, a sense of like everything's wonderful. And then you find one or two people who take advantage of that, who start kicking over nations, who start stealing resources, who start to say, well, are you going to eat that?

Because I'm going to take that, right? And I could bore you to death with, like, high-level strategy stuff. Well, it's a couple months after the Archduke Ferdinand gets assassinated. Right. And they call these black swan events, right? And we're resilient, right? The world is resilient. So you could close off the Suez Canal and people still get their, you know,

plastic Nintendo things or whatever. But we saw the food shortage with the war in Ukraine, that it affected food. We saw how the fuel was affected in Europe and we had to react quickly. We see how everything costs more. But we're at the stage now where we're actually watching live every day on TV, people getting murdered, right? When you watch the war in Ukraine and it's like a ding, ding, ding, ding.

It's like a pinball game, right? We killed 500, they killed 500. And this is all done with manufacturer. and technology weapons. So my feeling is if everybody could go to the front lines in Ukraine, where it looks just like America, you know, they look like us, they talk like us, different language. You'd see the severity of what's happening.

So is there any date? Do we have any? When can we see this documentary? When's it coming? I'm three quarters of the way through. So I'm not going to give you a date because that's my artistic prerogative. But things, I just say this, things are unfolding now in D.C. With grand juries, all that kind of stuff.

So I'm trying to time it to those things, right? And I'm very smug about this. But I've been working on it for four years. I've been all over the world, been talking to hundreds of people. And it's a great story. It's a very interesting story because it shows you how badly our government can be hijacked by a few individuals and what happens afterwards. And is it a happy ending?

That's really the big question. right but I still even with that grim sounding old guy statement I still want to believe that I can communicate the sense of joy and accomplishment and going out there and experiencing those conflicts you know putting things together in your head by seeing feeling touching talking or whatever and I feel and this is an old guy statement that we're losing that even though we have more communication tools like Like this morning, I watched some guy run around the drones chasing him, but I'm not in Ukraine.

I don't know what that's like. But I've been to Ukraine and I know the impact of those things. But do people see things beyond electronic communications, right? Do we invest in movements and ideas? Do we travel halfway around the world to understand the way certain people live, whether it's tribes in the jungle or whether it's mercenaries fighting wars? to really invest in the world, right? So that when somebody says, oh, that's a terrible thing,

we can say, no, that's just an NGO with another one of those goddamn press releases about everybody starving. Are like, no, that's a big thing, right? That's a real thing. So I feel that I've got a PhD in that. Like, when I get upset, everybody should get upset. When I say, don't worry, everybody should not worry. But I do say we should worry about the sense of the Ukraine war,

it's got nothing to do with us. It's some regional conflict. and it won't affect this in the long run. It will. And I've seen countries fall in Africa. I've been in Libya and all these places where it used to be a democracy and it fell apart. It used to be a dictatorship and now it's a military coup. Like what's going on here?

And who are these people? And why are they sending mercenaries? Because they can't hire local people to do their bidding. So things are changing. Robert, you had told me the other day about, we talked a little bit about how back in the 1800s, There were these like memoirs published of these adventurers. There was people like Jim Corbett, the tiger hunter. Who are some of your favorites, Robert?

I'm trying to think. I like Sir Richard Burton. I mean, if you want to read something, read the life story of Sir Francis, Richard Francis Burden. He was an icon blast, right? There's a series of books. If you go into the Gutenberg Press, like these are free, right? These are on the internet. I read a story about an American that was held as a slave in Tripoli for like five years, right?

It's a great story. And it's in the 1800s, and it's like, what's it like to be a slave in an American? That's crazy. Who's the guy scouting on two continents? I'll think of his name in a second here. A little short guy who inspired Lord Baden Powell to do the Boy Scouts and create the world's first boy soul. soldiers.

The stories he tells are very sort of military deadpan, but they're like, oh, my God, can you imagine that, right? And he was in the Wild West, and he was in South Africa and the Boer War. So all I'm saying is that if you Google European mercenary, right? Yeah. Even on Wikipedia, if you're lazy, you'll find some of the most amazing people that went to India to fight for the Maharajas, right? I'll tell you what, I'll make it simple for you.

go out today and buy the Flashman series, by any book by George McDonald's. And before he died, I had a friend of mine say, look, when you die, can I take over the series? Because I love this series. It's about an incredibly cowardly, good-looking tall guy who blunders through history. Like, he's in the Custer's last stand. He leads the charge of the late brigade. He runs a slave into West Africa. And he meets all these famous people, right?

And it's written in such a pithy, like, real style. Like, the guy does a lot of research on it. So, anyways, Flashman George McDonnell Fraser is a great series. And then, like I say, start with Wikipedia. Almost every one of these Italian or French or German mercenaries has written a story about fighting with elephants and the Khyber Pass or whatever. It's crazy shit. Yeah, there are great books out there about, like, the Hessian mercenary state

or about the Swiss mercenaries in their relationship with France. I have a book around here somewhere. I think it's called Serving Under 14 Flags. This guy who's a professional mercenary in 1800s. So there's three kinds of books. There's a book by a guy who didn't intend to do it, but he went somewhere and he did something crazy, right? And now he's old.

Then there's books by people who just happened to be an amazing historical events. And then there's the guys that bullshit that want to be that guy. Yeah, you're always telling you. I have one of my favorite guys is Jack Wheeler, whose dad was a TV host in Los Angeles in the 50s, and he became a professional adventurer. He's a nice guy. He has a PhD in psychology or something or philosophy.

And he was tasked by the Reagan administration to basically invent a bunch of insurgencies. And if you ever get that chance, Google Jamberin, Jamba, which was in Angola. And he brought these people together with Jack Abramoff, and they created this sort of gathering of, I don't know, rebel groups that were going to fight against the Russians and the Soviets and whatever. And Halifah Haftar is one of those guys because he's the Libyan Contra. He was in jail most of the time, but he was touted as the Libyan Contra.

And he went back and he now runs the East Side. of Libya. So I'm just saying that there's some contemporary adventure stories of people who started up doing something adventurous. That caught the imagination of somebody. And then they got elevated into something that's now actually real. And I can't not stop laughing when I travel around the world and people tell me about the TV guy that runs our country.

And I said, what do you mean? Trump said, yeah, because they know all the reruns of the apprentice. worldwide. That's why he's so famous, right? Because he's a TV guy. And they don't view him as being like a guy who makes foreign policy or is like, was a president. He's the TV guy that runs a barricle. Well, Robert, it's apropos. The West African Church up above us is getting very holy right now. But I, you know, refuse to believe that there aren't any more adventures to be had. And that's sort of, this sort of writing, we've been speaking about, can you find it today? Like, who's your go-to?

Where do you go to? I'm not a good reader. I write books. I spend my time writing. What do you think? There's a bunch of people that have written the stories kind of like I used to write. I don't know that there's many people that just, like, disappear into a war, right? And come back later.

I'd have to think. I'd have to think. And most of those people contact me as they say, how do you get into this place, you know? I mean, you know, example of how things have changed. Like the Darien Gap is now like a PR spot for people talking about migrants. You know, when I went on it, everybody had been kidnapped the time before they went. So the world is changing. There's more security.

There's more people trying to stop you. But there's a couple books out there by people who served like in the YPG in Syria or Ozlov in Ukraine. Yeah, yeah. There's a bunch of people who have done. People do documentaries now. They don't really write books that much because it's... Or do podcasts. Or podcasts, yes, which is terrible thing to do for a living.

I know. I'm going to be doing a podcast, and I hope to interview those people. Because I honestly haven't been home that much. Tell us about that, Robert. Tell us a, because you showed me, you know, kind of the preview that you have of it. Yeah, yeah. So I know so many people, and I know so many things about so many people that I thought that what I should do is centered around the idea of adventure, right?

When I say adventure, I mean education, exploration, whatever. Help people understand how people went from what they were told to do to what they ended up doing and whether they feel satisfied. So, for example, I'm going to spend a weekend in a cabin with Rick Prado, right? And Rick just wrote a book about his time in the CIA. A guest on this show also? Yeah, of course, of course. And Rick lived in the shadows for many years,

and now he's out promoting stuff. So I'm going to design a knife for him. And I want him to talk about more than just what's in his book, you know, about what you get from doing things. And I want to do interviews. I want to do sort of talk and speak and spell about, like, how you do bribes, how you sneak across borders, how things work, you know. And hopefully generate some interest in, I call them young people, right,

on just going for it, right? Yeah. Now, I went to my 15-year-old grandson, and I pitched the idea of my podcast to him. And I said, what do you think? And I said, that's stupid. I'm like, why is this stupid? It was it. Adventure is like overrated.

It's like so 90s. And I'm like, no, no, you mean like skateboarding. You know, like, that's not adventure. That's danger, right? And I'm thinking, yeah, I'm just going to end up being some like sad version of some MTV show where everybody perched themselves every day. But it's like, no, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about taking the thing. things that bring you joy and the thing that gives you purpose and pushing it as far as you

can go, right? Now I talk about distance, right? So I travel and I go into places that are strange and you're forced to learn languages and culture. But I mean, you can do it here in America. I used to hitchhike around America and travel on a motorcycle and whatever and it's always fascinating. But that little mechanism is what used to be part of being a man. So if you remember, of course you don't remember because we weren't a lot of you

them, but when an African tribe takes a young man, he has to go out and kill a lion, right? When a Native American comes of age, he has to like starve himself and go out in the woods and look for a spirit at him, right? There's a process that you go through. In America, it used to be the Marine Corps or something, you know, but there's a process you go through when you transition from a boy to a man that usually involves mentors that guides you into your new persona, your new challenge, your new life, your new self-image. And I think that's missing today.

I think there's a lot of people that are selling that. It's like, look at me, be like me. But I'd like people to look at me and say, that motherfucker's still alive. Like that guy must know something that's worth listening to. So that's what I want to do in my podcast. There's a great memoir written by Tim Bax, who is a Seleu Scout. And he grew up, I believe, in Zambia, actually.

But just referencing what you were bringing up there, he talks about how he had a job as a logger in Canada, I believe it was. And he had to go underneath the logs underwater with the cable to attach it so that the logs can be pulled out. And a guy had drowned doing exactly that job the day before. And now here he is like 17, 18, like, okay, go do it. And he was like, that was the day I left my childhood behind and became a man, right? Well, I used to log.

It's called choking. I used to do that. And I used to work in the tunnels, the 36-inch tunnels. And I'm six foot four. So I had to go in there with a rock drill. It's like eight feet long. And I'd have to drill a pattern and bring the explosives down. And I'd put all the primer in the explosives and I'd wire them up, bring them up to the top.

And the blaster would go, boom, like that. And then I'd have to go back down and dig all that rock out. So I used to do those jobs. But I don't think they bring you, I think they cause it. alcohol is more than any else. I don't think they bring profound. And, you know, I was a logger. I worked in the bush and I really enjoyed it. But what I'm talking about is I wrote a book called Raven. It's the only fiction book I've ever written. And you can see it on Amazon. And I wrote it for my grandkids. So if two people buy it, I'm happy, right? But the idea was what thinking process

is different as a man than as a child, right? And the difference is as a child, you're told what to do. You're told what to learn. You're given things and you're supposed to absorb them. As a man, you have to learn things on your own. You have to observe and listen and talk and experience and try. And then you have to form a standard of quality that drives you forward in your education. And I love learning. I mean, I basically have a high school degree before I lived in a car.

Every day I learn something new. Every day I watch YouTube videos. I read things. I practice things, whether it's air conditioning, or farming or aviation or weapons or whatever politics. And I'm saying that I don't dictate this, but I'm trying to lead people to this path, that when you have a child and it has to learn how to do things,

it's missing so many tools today. And how many times people say, well, I don't know how to do taxes. I don't know how to fix a carburetor. I didn't even know how to plug in electric cars. Like, there's nobody taught me. I have to go to a YouTube video. I'm just saying that there's a lot more interesting things to learn

as a young man. And if you get it right, you'll always be a kid. I always say protect your inner child, right? I always think that William Shatner, who just did a documentary, he's 90 years old, 93 years old. I don't know how he does it,

but he's got curiosity. Everything is fascinating, right? If you can engender that in people, they'll survive, right? And, you know, I've talked to prisoners and people held by the Viet Cong and whatever, and I've talked to all kinds of people. How do you keep alive in a situation where you can't even move, right?

And this survival thing comes from that process. It's training your brain to always think positive, always learn, always ingest and digest. So anyway, that's what I want to do in my podcast. I also have to bring up DPX gear. I don't have my knife with me. You sent me a couple of them, and I've been using, I gave one to D, our producer, and the other one I've been using for like two months now. It's great, man.

I hope people go check it out. Where can people find DPX Gear? DPSgear.com, but I'm going to school you now. So that knife I sent you, I designed for Billy Waugh. Okay? And Billy and I go way back, right? And Billy kind of thought it was funny that I would be hanging out with all bin Laden's people of the Taliban while he was busy trying to kill him, right?

And I said, let's do something together. So I used to give him knives. He used to teach covert operations and clandestine. So he used to give out DPS knives. Because I started doing this, creating DPS gear for SF guys. They were handed shit when they went out there. And Billy Waugh, I said, what knife did you have when you're out in Cambodia on this jungle? He said, well, I had this little crappy demo knife.

And I had this prang and I had this old World War II, you know, stabbing knife. And he used to stab people in the throat, like boop, pop, pop, pop, up and run away. And he had this prang. So I said, look, let me design knives that I wish you had back then. And I'll put your name on. And he said, why would somebody want a knife with my name on it? Because it's cool. So that knife I gave you is the reimagining of the demo knife.

You know the little shitty Swiss Army knife they used to give people? And he used to use that to do debt and everything. So I put that hook on it. And it's a beautiful knife. It's probably one of the finest knives that you'll buy ever. And that's the point, right? I didn't make a knife to make a knife. I wanted to honor Billy and was gone now.

And that's what I do for fun, is Deepak's gear. That's awesome. And when can we expect to see the podcast? God, you're a nag. You're really a nag. I know. I am. I'm pushing product, too, though. We got where's to sell here, Robert?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. I got to rack up about 10 of them, and I got to find a bunch of reprobates that will want to sit with me for an hour. And then I got to edit it all together. So, you know, I'm about two or three months out. It's close. Okay.

Can you share a couple of what a couple of episodes are about? No, I'm not going to tell you because it's why it's about here. It's based on my book, The World's Most Dangerous Places. So first of all, it's about dangerous places, how to survive them, right? Secondly, it's about people who work in dangerous places who learn shit because hopefully they're still alive when I interview them. So they can tell you things that they learned in dangerous places. And maybe you'll get some sort of world wisdom from it, right?

All right, Robert. Keep your secrets. Keep your secrets. No, I would, I'd love to have you back on again because, like, we kind of just scratched the surface of your work and your life and everything you've got going on now. I want to let folks know that on Monday we have Eric Deming, former Navy SEAL coming on the show. And then on Friday, Pat O'Donnell, who just wrote a book. I don't know if it's released yet or not, but he wrote a book about special operations during the American Civil War. So we're going to have him on to talk about that. Robert, where can people find you? Where should they go looking for you? So I have a website called Come Back Alive, which I just updated actually.

So Come Backalive.com. You can Google me. Like, I'm just all over Google like stank on shit. And you can read all kinds of stories that I've written. You can see all kinds of videos. I'm usually gone. Like, I'm usually someplace else. But with this podcast, I want to be.

to sort of bring it on home, right? Because I'm not anti-social. I'm just busy all the time. So I want to give back sort of some of the ideas and thoughts and philosophy. And if everybody says like, that's a bunch of bullshit, man, then I'll just move on to something else. But right now, writing books, doing documentaries. And like I said, I want to try to mentor through podcast because I can't go around

and pat everybody on the head and say, no, don't do that. But I want to do the podcast. And I want it to be organic. So I want when people feedback saying, well, it's not. Stop talking about this, talk about that. And I don't mean any deference by this, but we have been saturated in war for many, many years, right? And 9-11 onwards, it's just we've been saturated

with images of death and sadness and whatever. And we have a generation, Generation Z or whatever you want to call them, the kids coming up that are just immune to that, right? And I don't even know if they have any emotions because everybody, every young person I talked to has zero interest in going into Rhodesia and fighting for the cellar scouts or jumping out of helica. It's just gone.

The whole thing's gone. If you trust what the news says, they don't like the drink, they don't like the smoke, they don't like the fuck. What's going on? They're just on the internet watching YouTube. So I give you an example.

So I took my daughter, I have twin, identical twin daughters. And I took my daughter Claire out to the Q-Course. And I do some things in Q-Course, like role-playing and stuff like that, times because I wanted her to meet SF guys. I wanted to meet really polite, hardworking, decent people. And I have them over, sometimes they use my house as like a secret,

when they do those secret black helicopter shit, you know, we have barbecues and stuff like that. And I just am so impressed with special forces and the way that they train them, the way they conduct their selections. And I've seen maybe the best, I could be wrong, but I mean, I'm probably so the best example of 12 Americans, almost like Rod the United States, almost like Rogers Rangers, you know, like left alone to do their thing, they do it right. They just kind of shrugged their shoulders and they move on. And I'd like to perpetuate that somehow with, you know, these talks, these conversations. And again, I'm not military, right?

So I bow down to anybody that served in the military and put up with that bullshit, but it's something you have to do to make this country, this country, right? Yeah. And they would never allow me in the military because I would just never fall in the orders. but the guys I know that put in 25 years, master sergeants, everything's broken, smashed, and whatever, I just want to give them some time to say thanks and look kids, be like that when you grow up, you know. Yeah. So, anyway.

That's awesome. Well, Robert, thank you so much for doing the show. I hope to have you, really, I do want to have you back again. Maybe when your documentary comes out and you're doing a little push for that. I'll use you to plug my stuff from now on. I'll like, okay, here's my 10-minute sales pitch. No, no, no, I'm going to squeeze a whole podcast episode out of you when it comes out. Well, I'm doing interviews again because I've been busy doing this documentary.

I've been everywhere all the time, so I'm back sort of running my mouth again. And it's always a pleasure talking to you and people that understand kind of what I do. And at the same time, I feel like I'm like the guy in the museum that the kids pointed out and say, What is that, Mommy? Adventure? What does that do? I don't know if there are any adventures left, just me with my mustache. Anyway, it's been a pleasure.

Thanks for doing it, Robert. Go check out his books. You can find them all on Amazon. Like I said, these were kind of like foundational works for me that as a teenager reading this book in particular, actually, inspired me to travel and really colored a lot of the things I did in my life. and I think a lot of other people are in the same boat, man. Hey, you know what I found out is that people use those to pick up chicks. Really?

I didn't know that was a possibility. They would have this really summed copy of the world's most dangerous places and they would carry it on their commutes. And girls would walk him and say, oh, what's that book? And then it was over. It was like having a puppy, right? I'm such a dumb ass. I never even thought of that.

I didn't know that either. Jack's going to start bringing it to the park with him. Walking around with this bad boy. Under their arm. Well, you do become some of the most distinct people when you say, oh, yes, of course. I can't talk about what I do in dangerous places.

I never experienced the joy of being famous for writing that book. I'm always gone. So when people tell me stories, I'm always fascinated. But when I see something on social media where somebody goes, oh my God, I read this book, The Adventurists, and you know, big hearts on it and stuff like that. So that's kind of

cool. It's awesome, man. No, it definitely had an impact on impressionable young minds. Robert, again, thanks for doing this. We'll have you on again sometime in the near future. And for everyone out there, we will see you on Monday with Eric Deming and then on Friday with Pat O'Donnell. So thank you for joining us. Hope you enjoyed the show. Thanks, guys.

I'm going to sign off now. Maybe next time we'll do it in like 4K or something. We'll try. Figure of my story. Yeah, or in studio if you're coming through New York. Well, I'd be happy to. I'm going to Blade Show in Atlanta, so I won't be, I'll be hanging out there with, what's the name? Rick.

All right. Yeah, let us know when you're coming through. All right. Later. All right, guys. See you later.