The Team House - Peter McAleese: 22SAS, Rhodesian SAS, Mercenary, 44 Pathfinder co.,Ep. 93

Episode Date: May 15, 2021

Peter McAleese has lived a hard, violent life from the slums of Glasgow, serving in Aden & Borneo with 22SAS, combat w/ Rhodesian SAS, Pathfinder Co. in South Africa, and as a mercenary in Angola and Colombia where he was hired to kill Pablo Escobar. Get Peter's books here: https://www.petermcaleese.com/ Support the show and get access to bonus segments with our guests: https://www.patreon.com/m/TheTeamHouse Team House merch: https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963 Team House Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the.team.house/ Team House Discord: https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here: https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links): https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSampleBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Being a parent can be really challenging. Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five with free support services to help them on their parenting journey. Everyone deserves someone they can turn to for help with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. Being a parent can be really challenging. It's normal to feel uncertain about whether you're doing the right things to raise healthy and happy children. That's why Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents,

and those with kids under the age of five, with free support services to help them build confidence in their parenting journey. Everyone deserves to have someone they can turn to for support with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. Special operations, covert ops, espionage, the team house, with your hosts, Jack Murphy, and David Park. We are here today. This is episode 93. We are with Peter McAlees, author of No Mean Soldier. I read it this week, really enjoyed it. Peter is an amazing guy. He served in 22 SAS and Aden and Borneo. He served as a mercenary in Angola with Fenla. He served in the Rhodesian Special Air Service doing cross-border operations and then with 44 Pathfinder Company in South Africa. And then finally, he was also hired to assassinate Pablo Ehrase. Escobar in Columbia in 1989. So Peter has lived a hard, mean, and sometimes violent life. But his book

is also filled with self-reflection, somebody who changed and was changed by his participation in many of these conflicts. And I hope to talk about this, all of this with you tonight, Peter. Okay, go ahead. You had a tough life growing up in Glasgow, living in poverty. Could you tell us a little bit about your upbringing and what kind of got you introduced to the military? My upbringing was, it was fairly hard. My father was an extremely aggressive person and if you did something wrong, you got a beating first and the inquiry came later, you know. He, all I can see is he didn't know any better.

but I suppose he tried in his way and it never worked. I went to a good school, St. Thomas's School. It was a Catholic school there. Nuns taught me very, very strict. And I really enjoyed life when I was young. I enjoyed the freedom it gave me. I just didn't have any home life. but when I was released in the morning when I got out

I just took off and I used to go along canals and swing on bridges and do all the things I love to do you know and correct me if I'm wrong if I read your book a little bit wrong but it sounded like your father participated in some sort of like bare knuckles boxing is gambling that you used to go and watch no what happened was my everything where I came from was settled by Memphis

that's how you settle scores. It wasn't, that's just the way it was. It was natural to us. My father got sort of de-throwned as the local hard man and my grandfather didn't take it too well. So he put him into a training regime to get ready for the comeback fight. And I sneaked in top of a slag heap and got myself on top of Little Hook.

actually watched the fight itself. And it was very, very funny because my father floored the guy and his brother went to pull out a knife and then he went, the brother got stabbed with her being it, and then there was a load of miners all fight with each other. It was like something out of a cowboy movie. Everybody was battling.

Yeah. Now, you said that I pulled out a knife, when you said that like men handled things by fighting back then was there a sense of when the fight in general was there a sense of when the fight was over it was over um you know what what happened was when it was settled there was no animosity after it you know the if it was in the pub and a Saturday night

the normal thing was a comeback in the Sunday morning what else when one of the people were fit again but that once the person uh had been beaten a fight, it was accepted. Yeah. And the pecking order sorted itself out again. Yeah. Yeah.

I should just, I'm sorry for a little caveat just for our viewers. I should have mentioned, this is a pre-recorded episode, so we're not going to be able to take viewer questions. And that's as a courtesy for Mr. McAleese here. He's in a different time zone over there in the UK. We want to keep them up there. Yeah, no, certainly. And so your father was also in the military, and he was in and out of prison from the way you just talk about it in your book.

He was always getting into trouble, always getting into fights. Yes. My father joined the military, and he finished up in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. He was a Scotsman, and he didn't take too well with it, you know. He was constantly in the military prison, which there was. was the prisons within the main prison system in Scotland and he spent a awful long time in there and you know basically what happened during the war

if you went in 19 if you joined the army in 1939 when the war finished you go down 45 if you went in 40 you go in 46 and it carried on until 1948 my father came out in 1952 because you keep back all his due time. And so you followed in your father's footsteps

as a way to escape your neighborhood in Glasgow, also a way to escape poverty, I suppose. What was it that attracted you to the Paris and to the SAS and to these elite units? Well, I watched a movie on the Paris and I was very, very taken with it, you know. and it was in the cinemas all over Glasgow and I followed it all over the place

I was fascinated by parachuting and I remember one day is it okay to swear? Yes, absolutely. Bacanay. I remember one day I seen his paratrooper walking down the road and he looked fantastic

you know he was well he carried himself extremely well his boots were highly bowled and he just had something about him And I kept following them down the street just to see him with his red berry and whatnot. And he eventually turned down and he says, What the fuck are you doing following me? I was just mesmerized by the guy.

What did you say to him? I mean, I just said, you know, I see the new a paratrooper mister, you know. And that sort of calmed it down a bit. You know, you just couldn't get his head around why I was following them all. all over the streets, you know. And so a few years go by, and you find yourself there yourself, I mean, before long, you're in the SAS yourself. And in those days, bouncing between Aden and Borneo,

and I was wondering if you could tell us about these two conflicts that you were bouncing in between. Borneo was mainly a reconnaissance in reporting back to the military. the infantry done an awful lot of heavy stuff there but we were mainly reconnaissance checking out routes checking out the border area

and whatnot so as I say it was it wasn't exciting trigger on the trigger if you understand what I mean Aiden was different we were fighting against dissident tribesmen there who were good at long

distance fighting they weren't too good at the close-up stuff and I found myself in a situation one night where we'd taken off and we were walking down this wadi I think it was called the wadi Bila and the troop sergeant said to me he said Peter there's there's some

there's some shepherds down there and and I looked and I could see the way they were looking and I said they're not shepherds and one of them shot the troop sergeant and then I shot him and then all hell let loose and it was funny because

you know I killed the guy who killed the troop sergeant and the rest of the troop moved up and I think we killed another three but somebody threw something at me and I thought it was a brick and it landed in between my legs and the next morning when we were sort of clearing the area.

It was an old British hand grenade, the old 36 grenade. And the guy had thrown it and landed on a rock and split open. And only the detonator had got off. So, you know, I felt I'd be extremely lucky person that day. Yeah.

Yeah. Peter, around what year are we talking right now to give our viewers? I'm talking about 65 through to 67. Okay. And you also, participated in one of the first free fall drops in

Aden which I thought was fascinating. Yeah. Basically what happened now, if I had to tell a modern day free faller what we did, he'd bust out laughing. But you've got to take any consideration. We didn't.

We were in the infancy with free fall. So what we did is we get two scout helicopters and there was three neats helicopter. and we stood on the skids of the helicopter as he was flying in and he gave us the okay

and we all jumped together so there was no stacking type of thing and you know everybody if we had bumped into each other we'd definitely be for the broth pot you know these are the old round parachutes too right

well in actual fact the parachutes we had with American tojo's we'd borrowed them to do this to do some training and we sneaked him out to Aden. When we did the RV after the jump, one of the guys had gone too

far out and he planted his shoe underneath a bush. And the next morning after the ambush, we said, where's your parachute? He said, it's under a bush and the whole place was covered in bushes. It took us a couple

hours to find the parachute. Because they had to go back to the Americans, you know. Oh, I see. Had to be returned. That's funny. So you guys free-falled in, or free-fault in? It was at 1 o'clock in the morning, and we, there was a full moon.

As I say, we stood on the skids, and the pilots shouted go. And, I mean, we didn't know what we were doing. It was a case that we wanted to try it out, and we went for it. And to a certain extent, it works. but nowadays, you know, now that we'll get more sense, we'd have jumped one at a time. So,

you guys tried this jump, or you experimented with free fall on a combat operation. Yeah. There was an operational jump. Yeah, it was the, it was an insertion, really,

you know, we were trying to get a hold of this terrorist called Muhammad al-Magdra. be or how should be, you know. And he was reputed to travel down this track twice a week or something, and we bushwhirped it, you know. And at the same time that you were learning about, you know, as a young soldier, learning about desert warfare in Aden, you're learning about jungle warfare in Borneo, which I thought was very interesting going between the two. It was, it was funny because it's the exact opposite. We'd do a, we'd do four months in Aden, four months. Four months.

once in Bono, four months at home, re-training. And we kept that circle up for about three years. Wow. And as I say, you know, it was interesting. It was good, but the

and we got to know the areas as well as the people who were fighting. Can you see that? More so in Eden, because the whole thing boiled around having water. You know, we started to know where water was in various hills. and whatnot. That's amazing. So you enlisted,

did you go straight to the Paris? How did the military work at that time? The military worked at that time, that you went straight into the Paris. Before you had to join another regiment, but I caught it when they changed it over. And I got there and I was really taken by the police, you know. And this couple came along and he got a hold him and he said, come on son, let me show you things and he showed me how to

fold my kit you know how to lay out in the locker what went where showed me how to iron my kit. He taught me everything but I already knew a lot of it but as I say I wrote a letter home to my mother

and I says mother, now don't forget I'm only 17 I said mother the copo's my best friend the couple that had been helping me and understanding me on the first day of training the door opened and a dustbin tore down the centre of the floor

and this guy had been it looked as if he'd gotten insane and the shock to the system was sort of phenomenal you know it carried on like that for about 10 weeks and he eased up for a bit and then, you know, it was mainly just getting us ready to be professional soldiers. And they were good at it.

They were good. It's just that when they first to me it appeared like some form of insanity. It was like a scene out of one flew over the cuckoo's nest, you know. And it bears mentioning also that you were quite an energetic, rambunctious young soldier. and you got bounced between the SAS and the PERS a couple times during those early years. Yeah, I was a

I'd use the term that used in the country. I was a bit punchy. You know, and I got into an awful lot of fights. You know, I won some, I lost some. And it stayed me for a long time and it caused me problems. which I never actually really solved till after a lefty army.

And, you know, as I see, when I came out the army, I got a lot of trouble as well. But it was just, it was a learning process all the way through until I learned to come to terms with myself, you know? Yeah. You talk a little bit about, you know, like you said, after your initial stint in the army, there were some dark years there where you yourself were in and out of prison.

I was a I was constantly getting into trouble and fighting with people and you know I used to get involved with the police and then finish up fighting with them and you know when you you get involved along those lines

you know you're onto a loser you know yeah do you think I'm sorry do you think they're liaisened up for a bit but later on they used to just bring a dog with them and just let the dog set up out of me, you know?

Yeah. Do you think that that came from your father? Did it come from that's because that's how people solved their problems where you grew up? I think some of it came from my dad, but that's the way people were in Glasgow. You know, it was normal. It was a subculture. Yeah. And, you know, I look back now and, you know, I look back now and, uh,

It's fantastic. You know, I can sit there and talk something through with a guy. Whereas when you're younger, you're sitting in the pub, and you can see a disagreement of starting, and then the chairs start moving back, where the two guys are getting ready to sort of tackle each other. It was just the way it was in Glasgow. You know, those parts of Glasgow were extremely posh districts.

But, you know, where I came from is it was just normal. It wasn't, you know, nobody would lose any sleep over it. Right. right yeah so when when you were with the paras and then the sass and then back and forth was it guys on your team that you would get have conflicts with or was it like townies or how like what would get you in trouble generally um it was mainly uh when i had alcohol in me i used to be i could never hold drink i mean i stopped drinking about eight years ago and you know my life is just

fantastic. I just couldn't hold it and I would get aggressive and finish up trying to solve things the way the people sold them from the district I came from. You know, it never dawned in me that

you know there was many cultures within the UK and as I say I got myself in there, I'm not a lot of trouble but the great saying is if you can't pay the price don't roll the dice and I rolled the dice

and I had to pay the price Yeah Yeah That's interesting I mean If I could meet The judge that actually sent me to prison I would shake his hand

In that he looked at I don't think it was done in a malicious way It was done that I think this guy needs some breathing space I think he needs some time To get his head together and it did exactly that. That's interesting because that was after your time in the Army, right?

Yes. And a lot of guys kind of, like, not a lot of guys, but some people like figure that out in the Army or that's where they learn it, but your Army life was kind of plagued with some issues because you still had that sort of trigger. Oh, yeah, you know, Luke. I was never ever sanctioned for being a bad soldier

I was a badly behaved soldier two things, two different things you know you get these people say he's a bad soldier I will I'm sorry go ahead my defence to that is I was a badly behaved soldier right I was never

I always gave it I gave soldier in my all and I enjoyed it and I got one hell of a reward from being a soldier you. Yeah. And so, and how long were you, like, how long were you in the military? I did nine years in the British Army. Okay. And then I came out. And then I went to work, then I worked on pipelines, oil rigs, you know, I drifted to and through. And then I contacted to go, go and get involved in the angle and say, well, what? could you talk to us about that next

about getting recruited to go fight with Fenla and the mayhem that really ensued down in Angola what was this, 1976? Yeah. Basically, a guy got in contact with me and he asked me if I wanted to go and I said, yes. I mean, I always missed the scrapping side of the army, you know?

and I he said he gave me the name of a at Heathrow Airport and we met up there and I got in an aircraft and flew out to in Delhi Airport in Zaire but it was really funny because

I left Heathrow Airport as a troupe and by the time I landed in Delhi I was a captain that's what you call fast promotion that's fast tracking for sure but you know

it was just this mess up everybody was all calling their cell by fancy rank and I got approached by one report and he kept calling me Colonel and I said look I think you better stop

the highest rank I ever held in the army was a staff sergeant and I've never had the commission so please don't call me for this time I'm a colonel I said please don't I was embarrassed by it all

I said look I'm just the guy in charge you know I thought it was very interesting how you talk about in your book that you know you you become a mercenary leader what's called what it is down in Angola and you're kind of put as like

the trustee of an entire town and charged with like protecting it and you're like the mayor trying to take care of these people I got down there and I landed there and I couldn't believe it. The FNLA soldiers were bullying the people, taking

food off them. The hospital had collapsed. You know, there was no medical kit. There was nothing. And the army just in general were bullying the people and when the fish boats came in with the food and the fish, it was taken away by

army guys. now I say I better control this and I really enjoyed it it was very very rewarding I found an old day there was an old ship line out there and it was loaded with medical supply

so I brought them in and I got the hospital sorted out and then you know they started you know started working well you know

and how many other for lack of a better word, how many other mercenaries did you have with you? I had a six. Six. And how did you keep the F&LAC soldiers from taking the medical supplies, taking the food, things like that? How did you sort it out?

Well, when I did, I chose an awful lot of guys, who were super bullies, and I made them the MPs. So they had the rest of the them terrorized. And that's a good point there, Dave. And the other thing to talk about down in Angola, you know, Peter, you kind of ruled with a bit of an iron fist with some of these disciplinary issues.

And you can see how that was needed because there was this madman down there, Callan. Being a parent can be really challenging. It's normal to feel uncertain about whether you're doing the right things to raise healthy and happy children. That's why Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five with free support services to help them build confidence in their parenting journey. Everyone deserves to have someone they can turn to for support with parenting.

Visit child and family resource network.org today. And who was the other? Copeland, I think it was. Could you tell us the story about these two guys? I mean, really, they were war criminals. Yeah, well, I went to a place called San Antonio Desire, and Holden Roberto came in to see me, and he explained that the situation had got our hand, and could I go and sort it out,

because they'd killed a load of people at a place called McKella. And I'd met Callan briefly beforehand, and it takes an awful lot to make me, scared. But with this guy here, I was very, very wary of him. You could see that he could just turn.

And anyway, I said, right, okay, I'll get him, and we'll sort it out from there. So I flew up to McKellan, and I seen a vehicle coming, and my heart was pounding. And I think I've described it

is I know how Jesus felt in the Garden of Gisemone. because my heart was really pounding and I said, you know, how am I going to tackle this man? But I'd volunteered to do the job. And as it happened, he'd been captured. So there was Sammy Copeland there and a couple of others. And I did my best to get the situation in hand.

They held like a kangaroo court for them, didn't they? Well, it was as close as we could get to trying to do. something properly. They've got you understand that the place was, it was chaos. Yeah. You know, the group that Callan was with, it was, it was, there was absolutely, they were just like bandito's. Right, right. There was an awful lot of good men there, but they were shit scared. And I got there and I, I spoke to people and I said, we better do this, try and do it properly. And the aim was to find out what actually went happening.

It was an inquiry, really. And, you know, there was one guy there kept saying, no, he should be shot. And I said, shut up, you know. And Sammy Copeland, his, it just must have been too much room. And he made a dash for it and somebody shot him. And that was a long and short of that story. But we did try.

when you talk about a kangaroo court, having been in trouble in the army as well, I had a fair idea. Peter, can you, for our viewers, you may not be familiar with it and haven't had a chance to read your book yet. Can you sort of tell us a little bit about the goal at the time? What was going on?

Who brought you in? Why they brought you in? And what the intent was? And what Callan and Copeland had done? Because they were guilty of some really heinous crimes. Yeah, who they were in what they had done. Basically, I was approached to go there, and as I said, I got to Indyli Airport. We were met by Holm, Roberto.

We drove down to Angola into one of the towns there, and I met Callan there. And he suggested, well, he was the guy in charge, so I didn't want to question it, because it was, you know, he'd been there before me. and Holden Roberto seemed to hold some faith in him. So he then said, I want you to get down to San Antonio Desire and run the situation there. As I say, when I was down there,

I got an awful lot of job satisfaction out of sorting things out in the town. And then Holden Roberto came down to see me. And he said, things are getting out of handy, out in McKella. There has been murders. been massacres.

He's even shot some of his own men. And I want you to go out and sort it out. And so as I say, I flew to McKella and I said, I better not rushing here with a head down. So I said, right, what has happened? They've killed, I think it's 13 or 14 guys. I said, where are they?

So a driver took me out. And he drove up this sort of, re-entrant and as we were getting to the top of it he says it's about here somewhere I said it's here and I got out of the truck and I walked and I could smell

the death you know I remember one guy was there and he was holding a bush and he'd been shot through the back of the head and I said who did this and it says it was Sammy Coughland I don't know

Sammy Copeland had a reputation for being a good soldier, but I think he'd fallen under the spell of Callan. And he started, you know, he just lost it. And as I say, whole my birthday says, I want this sorted out. And as I say, I got back to McKella. I spoke to all the men, I interviewed them all, so as I could get, you know, the truth of what happened,

because there was a lot of them wanted to get out. it there as quick as they can because I had enough of it as quick as the could, sorry. And so I then held a court of inquiry and that's when Sammy

Coulpen bolted right and got his shot. I looked at the men. I'd seen this massacre. I looked at the men. It was something like a site out of the First World War that were black underneath the

eyes. They couldn't look in the eye either. They said, I think the thought here comes another madman. And lucky enough, my cousin was among the group. And I heard to him, I said, you better go and talk to these guys. Tell them

it's, you know, this is not a repeat of what's going on. So he calmed them down a bit. And I went, these men are no good. They've lost it. They've given up. I spoke to Holden, Roberta, and I said, get these guys out of here.

Yeah. No, were these, all these people you're talking about, Colum and Copeland and then their men, were they also part of the mercenary effort? Were they also Westerners? Yeah, the, it was all guys from those Americans, some Portuguese, mainly Brits, a couple Australians, yeah.

And who brought the mercenaries into Angola at that time? Was it the government or was it? No, no. The government had nothing to do with it. You know, it was a guy called Nick Hall. Who knew Callan? Callan had spoke to Holden Roberto, and he said the answer is,

get some white men out here, and we can sort of the situation out. So there was this sort of mass recruiting done without any background checking. Can you see it? Yeah. The idea was to get numbers out there. Some of those guys, you know, they should have forgotten all about it.

They just, you know, you can get a man who's a good regular soldier. But when you get into that mercenary game, it's brutal. Right. Yeah. Sometimes, you know, the discipline isn't what you're using in a regular army. And then Callan met his fate ultimately at the hands of Uniter, right? Yeah. and all the

MPLA Oh the MPLA Okay gotcha I'm gonna push a little bit forward If that's cool Yeah I was just curious Who was paying I mean just again

Who was paying for the mercenaries there To help restore order I just There was American money involved Okay In the beginning The Americans had CIA

And they thought It's going to come right but the minute that massacre was done by Callan they just withdrew they said we've got to get out of here yeah and they were helpful guys I mean I spoke to some of those men and they were good men and I says look you can't leave us like this and an actual fact they broke the rules and actually helped us out as they were leaving can you see that

and one thing I would like to mention in passing also is George Washington Bacon was killed on Valentine's Day in Angola that year who was somebody I did a lot of research on. He was American Special Forces, and there's disputes to this day about whether or not he may have been working for the CIA when he was killed.

Well, I spoke with him, it was very, very easy to talk to. A very knowledgeable guy. And I think, like most of the Americans out there, he just wanted to have a buzzer it. But I think somewhere along the line, I think maybe his father had been in the CIA. Yeah, I think that's accurate.

And Bacon did work for the CIA in Layhouse previously. But to this day, no one really can say. But I did want to push a little bit forward after Angola. There was, of course, the desolution of Fenla, and you left Angola. But then you found yourself back in Africa and Rhodesia. And can you tell us a little bit about how you came back in, to the SAS a third time. Yeah,

what happened was I drifted about working in oil rigs and whatnot and I said, this is not for me and I I was on my way to join the foreign region

and I got in London and I met a mate of mine called Murray Davis. He was a reporter and he said, Peter, stay away from there. He says, they're just crack in stuff. at the moment, and I says it might not suit you. He said, get yourself to Rhodesia,

and you'll get there's a war going out there, and I think you'd be more suited to that. So I finished up going to Radia, and I joined the SES. And this was, the war is heating up, and now we're talking, what, 1977, 78? Right, I got there December 76. 76, okay. Spent the first six months, I'd go through basic training again, you know. At age, how old are you at this point? 35?

It was 35 and I enjoyed it. Yeah. The instructors were decent guys. They put a lot of hard work in there. And the system was a lot different from Britain. they'd started recruiting guys straight into the SES and they said if we've got them from when they're young

we can get them the way we want them which makes a bit sense and the and they produced a good those young Redisian guys they were up for it the whole time is this where you met our previous guest

Mr John Gardner John when I got there John was in the process of leaving Ah, okay. And he'd finished his three years now. We just passed a few words. And he went back out to Africa.

And so he went back out to Australia. And then he found he wasn't fitting in there so he came back. And he went up and joined the Sulu Scouts from there. And went straight into the Salu Scouts rather than come back to the SES. And in your book, you say, that in the Rhodesian SAS is really where you saw the most combat. You were involved in some really serious operations, some parachute drops into combat.

Could you tell us a little bit about some of those missions? Yeah, well, the one I always remember most was probably the most planned, the most presented, the best briefing of ever had to go on an operation. Operation. It was Operation Dingell. It was an attack on a terrorist base in the Mozambique. It was that place called Chimoyal.

But I've got to mention this because I think if I didn't, I'd be doing the regiment or a bit of disservice here, but the briefing that was given to us and the way the models were laid out, it was given to us by a guy called Scotty McCormack. and Brian Robinson who was a squad and commander an actual fight the way they presented our briefing

made you actually think they were on the ground it was really motivating and as I say they let us stand down and they gave us a couple of beers and I said I don't like the look of this you know the rededias are not into giving people

beer and He gave us a couple of beers and then we got up early the next morning and I have never in my life seen such a sense of purpose everybody was helping each other

pulling our shoots on helping them with our containers you know that everybody was involved with each other and then we implained and we flew up through Rhodesia and then went into the Mozambique.

We were 90 kilometres in there. And I, I remember saying to myself, you know, as we were flying in, the flak started coming up at the aircraft. Now, this was a refugee camp, you know. There was flat coming up from there. It was fairly heavy. And I just said to myself,

Peter, this is what you've been training for your whole life. You know, this is fantastic. I jumped out of the aircraft. I landed in a tree and my feet couldn't touch the ground I was probably about 12 inches off the ground I kept trying to break the

branch to get my feet on the ground and eventually broke it and the next thing I got I got opened up in with a chap and he was firing numerous rounds at me so I got myself in behind an ant-tale and I managed to get my harness off

and my body was a guy I'll call him the posh jock He doesn't like people using his name And he pinned him down And then I got up And I heard the guy's A weapon

I heard the click of it's very distinct click When the AK is empty Then he decided to surrender I say sorry pal You know Yeah And we were there for two days We killed an awful lot of books

and I say Goops that was the terminology of the time it was we were at it the whole time and the everybody done their part the pilots were outstanding the men on the ground were outstanding

the Anali were outstanding it was just it from the start to the finish that operation was extremely well planned but they've been thinking about it for 18 months yeah you know, they had time to think it through. So, in the Thursday, we jumped in the...

I can't remember... I can't remember the day. Anyway, we were back in... I know it was Thursday night by the time we got in, and we were all ready, right, let's get to the pub, let's go and have a feed of beer, you know. And they just went this way, chaps. And they stuck his in the cage again. And said, you're jumping again on Saturday morning.

and so again they were very kind here they gave us two beers and then they on the Friday we're all briefed up and on the Saturday we tooled up again and got into the aircraft

then we went to Operation Zulu 2 which was part of Optingo and we then went and jumped into a camp called Tembe which was over the other side of the the Kabora Basa Dam so we jumped in there

and it was a sort of repeat performance everything was sort of well-organized and we did a bit of depredation and then come home when uh this time they allowed us to come home they didn't send you right back to the cage to get you ready for a word

we were excused the cage on the second when uh so when you guys launched on Dingo, you jumped in to like 90 kilometers into Mozambique. What? And you said the operation lasted two days. Was there a large force there that you engaged at once? Were you hunting them down?

There wasn't that many. There was only 10,000. It was 10,000 in the place. And they were split into units. The part of the attacked, had 5,000 in it, we attacked it with 180 men. But, you know, don't forget, we had the assets. Right. And those guys knew what they were doing,

those pilots and chopper pilots. And then how did you, with 180 men, after two days of operations, how did you ex-fill? We got together. Everybody was chatting away to each other. Then we were chapered out. and back into

Rhodesia and we got into Dakotas and then we flew back to New Salem Airport and that's when we were caged up for the first time. You talk also about how the Rhodesian SAS had a lot of foreigners in it

but you felt like you never quite fit in that they always had some sort of bias against you and you ended up Yeah I think I can explain that. That was not it wasn't to do with with Asians,

it was to do with me. I don't think maybe my, I didn't quite understand them because they'd all been to sort of public schools and whatnot. They were very proud of going to, at what school I went to Guinea, I went to Ply,

I went to Plum 3, you know. I didn't, I didn't quite understand it. So a lot of that, although I said it, a lot of that fault lies with me. And plus the fact, I got off to a very bad start there. and I got myself locked up

you know and it was possibly one of the most positive decisions I made in my life I walked into this prison in Rhodesia well it was an army compound and they were just completely surrounded in tin and I looked and I said this is insanity

was guys there shouting at the wall, screaming out the numbers, right, name I went. And I said, and lucky enough I met a guy who'd been in the British Army, who was one of the people who worked there. I says, what's the quickest anybody's been out here? How this, Nick? He says, oh, there was a guy in 1965, he'd get out in 21 days. I says, I'm out in 21 days. It was totally, there was no question I was getting out of there, you know.

And it gave me time again to sort myself out. I came away from there. It just says to go back to the troop. And I actually caught up with lessons that I'd missed. The instructor started giving me lessons at night time. And we got on okay from there. And then I finished the course and went to the squadron. Peter, I feel like we've skipped over a little bit here.

So, because there's no internet. I know what you're going to say. Yeah, well, let's just kind of, your friend, the journalist in London or in England, tells you that you need to go to Rhodesia. So you fly, do you have any contact with anybody in Rhodesia or you just fly there? I knew, no, I knew one guy. He'd been in, sorry, too, they'd been in the British, ES, and they'd been out there, and they were involved with the security forces somewhere along the line,

but they weren't in the SES. And they got me there, and they introduced me to people. At first, they weren't going to take me. And then there was an old SES guy there who was a colonel by that time, still involved in Army circles. And he spoke to the recruiting office, and they took me in. Why weren't they going to take you originally? because I'd been a mercenary

or what they tell nursery Okay And so What was it How did you end up in The Brig or jail Military jail

Before you even finished your training Right Now I'm going to be brutal here I'm going to be honest I won't mention any names Okay There was a sergeant there Who had a sort of

American Marine background. And, you know, and he was fairly strict. And I couldn't quite understand, you know, being used to British SES, the difference between the two because the American Marines, they're a good outfit.

There's no two ways about it. But, you know, that type of training works for them. And I couldn't quite understand it. You know, terminology like, you eyeballing me, boy, you know, stuff like that. Yeah.

And unbeknown to me, he told somebody that it was going to put me in jail. Now, this is a story I got. I'm not being true, but it was a story I got. And he said, I'm going to put him in jail, and it'll frighten the rest of the guys, you know. And so he started marching up to the square, and a couple of times he stopped us, and he seemed to single me out in three occasions.

and in the last occasion we got around the corner we were just shot to the square and he pulled me again and he went you know he said you weren't calling out the time I says I was

and he kept I said I said you want boy you know and it was the one boy that was getting me because I was older than him and I said I fucking was and the next thing he tried to take my weapon off me and I just lost it and I battered him and uh you know

he to be honest with you I don't hold anything against him on but he his performance didn't match the words that were coming out of his mouth can you see that? Yeah yeah your mouth's right and checks that your ass can't cash well definitely the case

and so when you decided that you were going to get out of this jail in 21 days how did you how did you manage to do that like there wasn't an obligatory sentence that you had to serve yes it was 21 days but if you were a good boy

you get so many days off and you could get up to seven days off but it had never been done since 1965 and I said I've got you get out of here and it was probably extremely positive, you know. Peter, you had an amazing career in the Rhodesian S-A-S and some of these operations that you were on

in the book you talk about operating on the Klepper canoes and the lake and everything. I mean, there's amazing stuff in there. And then working for special branch as well. But I wanted to, because we have limited time, I want to kind of get into the desolute, dissolution of Rhodesia and you moved over to South Africa and joined up with their military.

Yeah. I had gone to work with the special branch wing of the Saloo Scouts and I was in Bindura. And we did some lovely little ops here. We did some in South Africa. You know, went through South Africa, into Sjubljaland, anti-Mozambique.

and done a job there and I enjoyed it and what happened then Radija folded up and there was an open recruitment for South Africa so I

went down there I resigned from the army because it was finished and I drove down and I went to a place called Hallmark Building and I went to see them and they said they wanted to send me to the Chief of Staff

Intelligence and I said no he said well how about 44 parachute brigade? No I didn't know anything about it so I went there and I met Colonel Braytonbach and he spoke to him about forming a pathfinder unit

and he got on with it I mean Bratinebach was a legend and Yeah, the father of South African special forces. Yeah, 132 battalion. Yeah. And so you end up in their Pathfinder company, which was sort of something of a foreign legion

in the South African military, wasn't it? Yes, well, basically what happened is what Braytonbach put forward was that we need regular soldiers to get in there, whereas the South African Army was a conscript Tommy

and the mostly the regular soldiers went across to the reconnaissance commando so he said these foreigners are coming in

you know they're using the word forno they said well why don't we do some with these guys and I

I just finished up to Sam Major there so yeah you were their sergeant major right yeah and there's a

very humorous story in the book about your men in Pathfinder company bringing you coax and teas all the time

you think you think because they're so nice at first but actually they had an ulterior agenda yes

basically what happened was I used to get them up at half past four start training at five and then at night is a bit dark you get dark at six o'clock

there I'd have them out doing late training and I think I think it was just too much for them and all of a sudden I just I didn't feel right

you know and I was on musta prey now I went to stand to attention and my legs went from under me so I said I better I better go and lie down and the guys kept bringing me cups of tea and I said the yokee some major yokey

and what the bastards were doing we're putting Valium into my tea and finally through my you know I was another planet and I could just hear one of them saying no that's a bit too much

That's a bit good. That's it. That you've got it right now. So what... The path finders are special people. You know, I love them. You know, they were naughty. And to the South Africans, it was insanity. These guys were behaving, you know. So what was your response to them putting volume in your tea?

Did you smoke them? Did you lay some scunnion down on them? or did you just laugh it off? In actual fact, I found it funny. And I thought they were the type of guys, if you punished them, they would still feel they had the upper hand. Can you see it?

So it just left it. Yeah, right, right. But they still got up to a half-past four in the morning. Yeah. I finished it at 10 o'clock at night. And with the pathfinders, you also started seeing, they sent you on operations into Angola.

And I mean, you're kind of coming full circle. you're back in Angola for the first time since 76. What was it like going back there and doing ops with the Pathfinders? It was interesting. Basically what happened, I never went in with the first group of Pathfinders who went in. I was taken back because another group of trainees had come in and they wanted me to train them, so I had to come back to the Republic and train them. But eventually we went up there with the second group, and we did a...

a couple of good jobs there. And what was the... First group, I had to go back to train people and run a selection course. What was the sort of composition and mission of the Pathfinders and how did that differ from the Rhodesian SAS?

It was much the same. It was just... It could be termed as a poor man's SES. They just didn't have the kit. They didn't have all the Gucci stuff. They had normal weapons, but I think the standards

within it were as good as what I've saw but then again I've got to see that because I trained them and they were up for it the whole time when it came to battle they weren't afraid you know yeah when I took the second group up there we got involved straight away

we just landed and they went okay there's an operation coming off you to attack along as observers and the observers who were there finished up leading the attack. And it was interesting because, you know, I looked at the men and I said, you know, this is their day, you know. And I said, we've been training for this for months. I've got a task here to do. Let's go and earn their wages. And those guys were 100% in there.

I mean, the amount of fire that came at us was probably I can only go on what my grandfather said to me it was probably on par with the First World War but none of us got hit it was just the volume was extremely heavy yeah

the guys who were shooting at us may have got a wee bit nervous but I don't know what was the composition because Jack had mentioned that the path finders was sort of like their own sort of foreign Legion were most of the people who came to the Pathfinders

were they already seasoned veterans from one conflict or another? Yeah, well, most of them came through Rhodesia. There was an awful lot of Adelaide guys among them. There was a couple of scouts, Saloo scouts, and there was two SES guys.

There was me and another chap called Jop Phillips. And as I say, it was a good unit. But again, the South Africans weren't used to handling regular soldiers. It was probably like the Brit Army was in the 50s during the National Service days. Don't do as I do, do as I say type of thing. Peter, the other thing I want to ask you about this time period was there are some reflections in your book where I get the impression that you started to change.

You talk about killing in Rhodesia, a terrorist at close range, being splattered with his blood. In Angola with the South Africans, you have this experience where one of your men has his foot blown off and you're holding him in his hand in your arms as he starts to, as you start to cry. And so does he that from being this very, having this very tough upbringing in Glasgow, you having all these punchups in the pub. I sense that there's something happening inside you personally here. there was a softence inside me the guy a shot in Rhodesia he just sprung up in front of me

he couldn't have been any less than 10 feet away and I hit him in the back of the head with a round and just the whole lot of his head came back onto my shirt and I could smell it all day long

when I saw that kid lose his foot in Angola it was a track had been mined and I prodded my way into him and he put his arms around me and he said

Sam Major I'm a spring ball athlete and I really felt for him because his leg his butt, his foot was exactly off it was just all I was an ankle there and then all of a sudden due to the explosion there was some

MPLA come along. There were Angolan regular soldiers by then. And they came along, so we bushwhited a truck, and we killed a few on there. And then we just carried on with it. We got the kid helicopter down, and we just carried on with the operation. And how did this, all this combat and all this warfare,

I mean, did it start to affect you at this time? You're also becoming older, and you have a wife at this point. You have several children yourself. No, I had a wife who was very supportive of me. She was a fantastic woman. And no matter what I did, she was always behind it. And I remember one day I was running through her camp.

And I just said to myself, you know, the great thing about Jane, they don't forget there's people getting shot all over the place and I said you know that woman doesn't mess about my head I never had problems there you know when I was in the bush you get some guys their missies write some letters

and the guys got upset about it I never heard that she was totally behind what I did where did you meet her at like at what point in your life did you meet and how long have you been together I met her in Rhodesia and 77

and we just seem to hit off and we've seen each other for three years and we eventually get married before we left Rhodesia so the time we get married we'd been together about three years and she came down to South Africa with me and you leave the South African military embarking security contract acting. And

there's an interesting line I thought in your book. As much as you loved it down there, when your son uses the sort of racial slur, and you said, I don't know if I want my son to grow up to be this kind of person. And you went back to the UK.

That wasn't the real reason. It was part of it. I've never been racist. I watch a black troops and a lot, and I've found them okay. I just I felt that

there was a system in place there and it wasn't for me to question it. I could have my opinion out but you know it was legislated in that country and I wouldn't say I approved it'd be wrong to say that

it was just the way things were at that time. It's something that was well meaning and it turned out to be well it wasn't in the end you know why but I mean the thing is eventually

the country went back the people got control of it the black people and from what I hear they're not doing too good a job there but then again they've got to learn like everybody else yeah

I think that the other thing that I really wanted to get into here with you was when you get back to the UK you have a friend from Angola approach you with a special job and if we could start to talk about that.

Now can you enlight me there? Mr. Dave Tompkins. Oh yeah. Dave come up to see me and he said I've got something in the pipeline and I says what is it? He says I've got a job out in

Columbia I said count me in you know I've always got on with Dave you know and uh we moved on from there we flew out to Columbia we met some people and he was the rest in my book you know yeah I mean you get down to Columbia it sounds like on the

first try things didn't work out so well they didn't because they couldn't make up their mind what they were doing doing. And we train guys and the idea was to attack a communist base at a place called Casa Verde, which was in an area called the Sumer Pass. And we trained them. And then it was basically what happened, the communists were terrorising everybody and taking the, it was a diamond area. and they were taxing the diamond mine owners and well that's the story we were told but you never known Colombia

I mean the whole time we'd Colombian officers where so you know there was no reason to question it and you know we'd never any trouble getting through the airport they were always there to walk us through and then we eventually they just said it's not going to work.

They paid his off and went back. I can't remember how long there was quite a few months. There was also some bait and switch going on that you were ostensibly working for Colombian army officers but actually working for somebody else that you didn't know at first. They wanted you to... This was the case.

Now, when I spoke to the guy on it, it stemmed back to the 60s and there was an era in Colombia called Lavalienza and they'd got a group of men just to sort of this problem out. And they were fairly ruthless and they wanted to give a sort of a rerun of this. Now, the intelligent community,

now again, I can only see what I've worked out and what people have told me. The intelligent community couldn't get the money to do these operations. So who's got the money in Colombia? the drugs people. So they were financed by the drugs people to carry out the operation.

That was on the first one. And the paid as often came back and it was an event for the whole trip. Well, there was also a bait and switch with the target itself, right? Like, first it was one target, but then, oh, actually, could you hit this one next door?

Yeah, yeah. they wanted his first of all it started we were going to hit one house then it was a series of houses then we found out there was a base and

I said it's looking a bit hairy and the place was that high a loaded helicopter wouldn't have got up there so we decided at one stage to drop off a bit low

and then walk up the rest of the way it'd be wrong to say we were duped. We went out there. We knew there was going to be some skulldardy about it. Right, right, right. And we accepted that. So there's no use trying to whitewash over it. It was the case.

There was the intelligence community within the army was getting money from the drugs people to finance against the other drugs people, to finance a war against them. The idea of being, eventually they start fighting each other. And then the whole problem would be solved by them. They'd kill each other off. But it never worked out that way.

So this whole thing, yeah, it never really, it fails to materialize and ever get off the ground. So you guys, all the mercenaries go back to the UK. Some time goes by and Mr. Tompkins shows up at your door a second time. Yes, he did. What's his story now? the story was he came, he sat down and he explained that a group of men

wanted Pablo Escobar eliminated and I said well okay let's go for it and so Dave and I flew out there and we met the businessmen businessmen and they said we want you to

you know terminate this guy so we said it's going to cost money there's going to be salaries we're going to need weapons we're going to need equipment we're going to need helicopters and they produced everything

that we needed and and it was it was well-organized from their side. And we asked when we got it. And when the weapons turned up, I mean, they were brand new. They hadn't been used. They'd been brought into Columbia and said washing machines, you know, broken down and come in as washing machines. So many of these mercenary operations

around the world are, they're half-assed, you know, they're not put together the right way. But this one, like, they brought you helicopters, they brought you quality weapons and kit. I mean, you had professionals who had previous combat experience on your team. I mean, this was like the real deal. It was. You know, we trained for 11 weeks

to assassinate one person. I've been in the military quite a while and we never ever had that amount of time every day. We went out and trained on it. Okay, I'm not in charge, you're in charge.

Run the show from your side. and we just change him around every day. So every man knew exactly what was going on and they knew all the other men were doing. It wasn't a load of half-hour squatties turning up there, totally untrained like seeing the movies. Helicopters

coming from all different directions. So Vesta Stallone's and one and Swaznagers and the other and they just got into the jungle and terminate everyone. It wasn't like how we trained for it. Yeah. And when you say train, I assume that you mean running rehearsals, right? And so did you guys have good intelligence on the location you'd be hitting and things like that?

Oh, yeah, I flew over the place three or four times. And I looked at it, you know, and I was a bit wary at first. And then when I saw the actual place, I said, this is tailor-made for us, you know. It's her type of thing. So the men didn't know where it was at this time. We didn't want to leak. and so we just trained on it and we threw a house out in the ground

and we'd all practice you know white one, white two and we had the whole place colour-coded numbered so everybody had a tournament being the guy in charge can you see in case anything went wrong you know we all sat down

what we call a Chinese parliament in the SES we'd sit down what happens if somebody gets wounded? Action on. What do we do? I've got to get them out. How are we going to get them out? Okay, there's an airstrip up there.

Let's have a caravan stationed up there, waiting to take any wounded out. Stuff like that. You know, it was really interesting. And the men had an awful lot of input there. They put an awful lot into it. Could you tell us a little bit in basics, you know, what your plan was that you had developed,

how this was going to go down? Basically what happened, we'd have a tell start up. That was their communications for everybody that was on the ground. We had a caravan stationed an airstrip further up about six or seven kilometres away. And we had two helicopters to do the assault. And the plan was to fly up there, fly as low as we could, because all the guys who operated the radar there were on the payroll to Pablo Escobar

or one of the army guys so the idea was to fly up low then go over the top of the mountain come down low again and going to assault the place and what would be the actions on the objective once you hit his compound the action on the objective was there'd be a fire team would land

and they would be the cover team and the next team that came in or the assault team and they would carry on clearing the houses as they went along I was in the helicopter above coordinating everything we all had a top of our hats

we all had yellow crosses on them so I could see who was what on the ground and we practiced clearing the way through the whole lot and it wasn't it wasn't some half-assed thing I've done a lot of training with men and I have never seen as much training for Dunway

we did we did dress rehearsals full dress rehearsals a full dress rehearsals with live ammunition and actually attacking the place and it wasn't just a load of guys chance in their luck right and what actually happened is a mountain got in the way

you talk in the book about how when you got the green light and they told you to execute the mission, how you gathered the men up for a little speech, and how proud you really were of all of them, that they had drilled so hard and they were so prepared for this operation. They were, honestly, they'd really given everything. And I felt that they'd done an awful lot for me, and that they just kept on,

and no matter what I suggested, it was done. If there was any chuntering, I never heard it. Yeah. But when I got there, I got them around and I said, this is it guys. And everybody was up for it. I'm having second thoughts here, you know. Yeah.

Now, Pablo Escobar wasn't just some dude. Like, he had his own army. What kind of resistance and opposition were you guys estimating or planning at the house? He was reputed to have between 60 and 80 men. guards. We assumed that half of them would be off-shift and the other half would be doing the day shift.

Can you see it? So, we have enough ammunition there to kill between 2,000 and 3,000 men. And the way, don't forget, we'd been in Rhodesia in South Africa, we'd fought against the odds before. And it's all right watching our movie and saying these guys were highly skilled.

We were highly trained killers, yes. They weren't highly trained soldiers. different things. Yeah, yeah. And then can you tell us about you boarded the helicopters that day, took off heading towards Escobar's compound,

what happened? Well, on the way up there, I've never felt, I really felt at peace. You know, I was thinking the whole time, did I do enough to give these men a fair deal? Did I do enough that these men will do this operation and come back?

and I felt I'd done enough and then we turned in we flew over a town called Manor's Alley's and then we turned right to go over the top of the Andes and then I noticed there was an awful lot of low cloud There was two helicopters The other guy went as high as he could

I noticed he was climbing right up And the pilot we had was a younger guy and he just carried on and I said you must know what he's doing here and the next thing we would include and lucky enough

I turned down to Dave Tompkins and the guys in the back I says get yourself in the crash position and that's when we hit the trees I threw not having my seatbelt on I was thrown to the one side and the blade of the helicopter can pass me

and hit the pilot and the chopper turned upside down. We bounced through the trees a couple of times then landed. And it's funny how things you were taught in the army, you never forget them. The helicopter was turning around when the blades

were spinning, you know, and the tail rotor was spinning. And I said to the guy, sit we are until the blades stop. Because no you're going to get chopped up. So when the blades chopped up, we got out of the helicopter. we got out of the helicopter

and there was a hole about 10 feet deep and the helicopter was in it and I climbed up and Dave Tompkins got down there Dave tried to put a drip in him and then I came down and I said I said to Dave

I said pass me down the the drip and I couldn't get a drip and it was you know he was just he went a bluish colour and I went all I can do is make this man life, a bit this painful for when he dies, you know.

So I pumped some morphine into him. And he just drifted away. It was only then after he died, did I realise that I had injured myself. I was too busy working on him. And Dave and

one of the guys pulled me up. And I just, my whole, every bone of my body was aching. And they pulled me onto a little ledge. And I lay there for three days. While Dave and another mercenary went to go get help, right? Yeah. It was at this time that I realized I'd broken a row.

I should have sent one guy down and kept one guy with me. But somehow I just said go, but I wasn't myself. Yeah, right, right. Dave got all the bandages and whatnot, and it was cold up there. So he put all the bandages inside my jacket to try and keep me warm. You know, any medical stuff we had.

And I just lay in this ledge. I'd lost my watch in the crash. And then I started feeling hungry, and I found a can of beans. And I had a little block of hexamine in my escape bagging out. This can of beans was there as well. and, you know, I cooked it, and I ate the beans,

and as I say, I just lay there, and the pain was excruciating. And it was funny, you know, I lay there, and, you know, I'm a Catholic, I had a Catholic upbringing, and I was trying to make a deal with God. You know what I said, God, you know, if you get me out of this one, I'll try and be a good boy

I know I've let you down my lungs okay you know try to do a deal like I'm talking to you I'm not talking to my higher power anyway I am I lay there and eventually I heard guys coming

and I didn't know whether there were buddies or goodies and I just got myself ready for the worse and I said well you know again the old Catholic prayers came out, I said, you know, if I'm going

to die here, let me do it with a bit of honour. So I'd decided that, you know, I'd take as many as I could with me. Because I knew if they got hold of me, I was going to die a terrible death. Fortunately for me, there was guys who were coming to find me, but I didn't know that. They were speaking in Spanish.

So, it was a guy who came up to me. He didn't see me. I was just lying at, talked to him behind a bush and a stomach. a weapon in his stomach his hands went up in the air he went Riccando, Ricardo, Ricardo and

they eventually got a hold of him and decided to take me down. And what they did is chopped down a tree and cleared all the branches off. They were very competent

and just sliced this tree down to tie me to the tree and lowered me down each reentrant and load me down each water as we came along, you know. And it was a, it was painful. And I said, what wonderful men these are? And we get down to the bottom.

And we lay there for the night. And I'd been singing with praises. All of a sudden they had my escape bag in and they were robbing it. And to skate money in there, never split it off. How, uh, how injured were. were you? What had happened? I had four ribs broken at the front

on one side, four on the other side and the opposite side. And I'd, you know what happened when you crash, with an aircraft of a helicopter? You stand still with the crash and your organs inside go and smash against your ribs. It's called

stove chest. It wasn't as bad as it. It can kill you, but I had it fairly bad. But not enough to do me in. And it was immense. The pain was immense. It was an experience. Yeah.

And you know, it was interesting that, again, this was not like many of the mercenary operations out there. Like, your employers actually did get you a helicopter and got you out of there and got you medical treatment. Yeah. And, I mean, there's pictures there where I was, I mean, I was bedded down for, I think, the best part of a couple of weeks, you know.

And I recovered fairly well, you know. And the men were bringing me tea and apples, but the tea didn't have any value. No value? I don't know that this time, you probably wanted it this time, though. But I had probably needed it. Yeah. So did they, obviously this was a tragic event. And, you know, but did they scrub the mission?

Did they try to push it off, push it forward? No, no, we... Well, it was mainly David was pushing it. He said, right, we're going to go back again. And so, for this time, a reporter called James Adams, had got a hold of the story. Dave reckons he was a spook, and that's how he got hold of it, and he was working for the Times.

What truth is there isn't, I don't know. But Dave's pretty clued up in all these sorts of things, you know. We met him and we stuck a deal with him. Can you let us do the job? You know, this is before we kicked off. Can you let us do the job and you can have the exclusive at the end of it, you know?

Yeah. With tons of mini problems, one of the guys, his bottle went and you came and seen me. I was very disappointed in them. I said, well, rather than have, have him here. He's only going to lower morale. So I got him out.

The guys went, he's a coward. You know? And the first thing he did when he get back to Australia, where he came from, straight to the television and sold the story. I mean, what actually was he ratted on his mates. Yeah. And I couldn't, I couldn't understand it, you know?

Yeah. Peter, that's kind of where your book, No Mean Soldier ends. I really hope people will go and read it. But I would like to hear what adventures you may or may not have had since where the book ends around 1990. There's also beyond no-mean soldier, right? Another book.

And then you also wrote Fighting Man, oh, Macalice's Fighting Manual, yeah. Yeah, the definitive soldiers handbook. Yeah, well, what I did is I took I took the tactics that we used in Africa and I applied them to British tactics

and I got somewhere in between and I put it on paper and it sold fairly well beyond no mean soldier what I attempted to do there was to explain a few things

I hadn't done in the first book it could have almost I repeated a lot of the stories again but I explained certain things and I remember I had an awful lot of criticism at one stage you know who does he think he is no mean soldier

and I thought I'd enlighten him on it and you know St Paul it came from St Paul who was captured by the Romans and they said who are he? He says I'm Paul a citizen of Tarsus

no mean city and in 1935 two guys wrote a book in Glasgow and they called Glasgow no mean city and that it stuck to Glasgow the name and basically what I was saying I explained in the book

that all it was saying was I was a soldier from Glasgow nothing to do we being mean or anything like that it was to do where I came from and I thought I'd put things like that right and you know there's an awful lot critics out there

who love drinking the glass and a lager and not having done a great deal herself and they feel they've got enough lot to say and I thought it may silence a few of them because some of them can be fairly costly you know

and it's just it's a public in general you know but the majority of people enjoy my book you know the the ratings were fairly high. But there was the odd person. One guy

complained about Michaelese's fighting manual. There wasn't enough pictures in it. Soldier removal part two and soldier removal part one like some of a soldier of fortune that was probably a Marine. There was probably a Marine to be honest with you.

I mean so Peter we're since no mean soldier well what have you been up to in life where have you been? I see some of the pictures of you and your children who are grown up now. It looks like you have a very different type of life. I think

there was a documentary made on me and I made out because of my experience on the mountain in Colombia that had come to God. I mean, I was brought up a Roman Catholic and it was always there. If I could get to Mass, I went

but you know it wasn't a hallelujah praise the Lord a bolt of lightning came out of the sky and all of a sudden you've got to change man on your hands right I feel that I never started

grown up till it was in my 50s and things started to come together then and I started to understand people more and I found out that I could look at things and solve a problem without violence

and to explain my point of view rather than fight about it, you know. It was a fantastic time. And what I always say, there's a number of things that do say, is the judge that sent me to prison and shake his hand because he gave me time to think.

The incident on the mountain, it gave me more time to think. When I came out, I've never actually recovered from the injuries. So I couldn't do the things I used to do. And I started, I started, first of all, I started going back to church.

And it was nothing to do. It was just I felt it was time to go back. And I started enjoying it. It became a part of my life. And I'm not a hallelujah, a praise the Lord type. You know, I'm not my member of the God squad. What I feel it's given me guidance, an element of guidance through my behaviour. And, you know, looking at a thing first in question that within myself before I act on it.

And it's been fantastic. And now, how I look at it is all the trouble I was in when I was younger, all the things I did in the army, if I hadn't have done those things I wouldn't be here today and join the way I'd do it yeah it's fantastic Peter was there please go ahead

no I'm sorry go ahead now you go on I was there are a couple of questions one was there I was there you know people tried to play it up like there was a

a thunderbolt kind of moment but was there a moment when you realized that I can solve things by words and not my fist like was there was there did it happen gradually over time or was there a moment when it occurred to you

that there was a different way to go about things it just grew on me gradually so an actual fight I went to an Irish funeral one day and everybody once the alcohol started flowing everybody everybody started

grueling and snarling each other and I went, I said, I don't need this. And I can remember, I was drinking a Jameson's whiskey and a ballet gown water. I can actually remember the drink. And I just put it down. And I said, it's over. It's over.

And I haven't touched the drink since that was nine years ago. Wow. It was nothing to do with the church. It was to do with a situation I was in. Yeah. But when I stopped drinking, you know, I left a clear patch where I could

think about things that I never thought about before because I enjoyed being in the pub being with my mates and sinking a few beers and laughing and joking. But you know the when I stopped drinking, everything, it just left

it left me where I could think a lot clearer a lot better. I decided to go back to church and that's it. It was, you know, be wrong with, be wrong for me, he started talking like Jimmy Swaggart of one of these preachers, you know,

I mean, I've never had that experience. But as I say, for me, it worked out. I look back at my life now. I wasn't a good husband. I wasn't a good father. I tried. I tried to be a good father. But as a husband, I don't think I'm a degree.

I'll be honest with you. Yeah. I think if I had to get married now, it's 79 years old. I think it'd be able to handle a bit better. So for any women out there who are looking to meet a distinguished man with a world of experience. Who goes to mass. Yeah. And, you know, he's working on, you know, the idea of being a better husband.

There you go. When you, you know, you said that the injuries from the mountain, you know, kind of drove you out of that life that you couldn't do it anymore, or at least those types of things. Was that a difficult sort of transition for you to make, you know, from one identity to a new identity? No, it couldn't because the decision had been made for me. I couldn't move. And I accepted it. I mean, I'd had a parachute action before I left South Africa, and my right leg was hanging off and they put it together again.

And what happened when I had that crash? It just aggravated every break, everything had happened to me over the years. Yeah. Yeah, it was a good life. I wouldn't have changed it for nothing. Yeah. So I want to tell people, you know, we have no means. soldier. Now, here's, I don't know if you're aware of this, but on Amazon, no mean soldier,

apparently is not in reprint because the hardcover goes for 147 and the paper that goes for one. It's on, Peter has a website that he's selling the book through. What's your website, Peter? It's www.peter michaelese.com. There you go. So go there and I really encourage people to check out No Mean Soldier. I read a lot of these books, Peter, for this podcast and just for my own enjoyment. This was one of the really good ones. There's so many different experiences in here, and I really encourage people to go and check it out for themselves. Before we get going, Peter, is there anything else you want the audience to know? Anything else you'd like to say? I mean, there was also that documentary recently made about the Escobar Mission.

Yeah. I think the documentary was, it was well made. It was made by a, the director was a guy called Dave Whitney, who he could be demanding at times, but I could see his point of view. And I think, in general, you turned out not, it was pretty good documentary. And this ratings in Scotland were very high, but that's where I come from.

Can you see it? Now, if people wanted to see that documentary, do you know where they can find it right now? It's going to come on to Netflix shortly. Okay, awesome. You can get on, at the moment it's on BBC I player

awesome you can get it there in the States but it will be going on to Netflix eventually okay so this is important because if you do go to Amazon the book is very expensive

if you go to Peter's website you get a signed copy for 40 pounds and also his other books which are available in Amazon one in Kindle I know the Beyond No Mean Soldier is available on Kindle.

And that's on Amazon. And then your fighting manual is also available on Amazon. Now that's 125. Are those both available on your website also? No, they're not. We've been trying to get hold of the people to organize that can have a reprint. Okay. All right.

Well, Peter, thank you so much for joining us tonight. This has been an amazing interview. I know we covered a lot of ground in a short time, but I really appreciate you taking some time out of your Friday evening. And we know it's late there for you. Really late. You know, we don't want to keep you too long. Yeah, when you get to my age, I should be in bed now. So everybody out there, our next episode is actually, it's going to be Saturday tomorrow. we're going to have Jessica Donati, a reporter, the author of

Eagle Down. She's going to be here in studio. We'll be talking to her. Really looking forward to it. Please make sure to subscribe to the channel. Join us on Patreon if you want to support us. We have a new Instagram at the dot team. house on Instagram.

Peter, for people who want to find you, you have your website, peter macalise.com. is there any place they can follow you? Are you big on social media? That's the best way you get hold of me and that's an agent handles it for me

and he passes his stuff onto me. He filters out certain parts of it. Okay, sure. He thinks not suitable and then passes the rest onto me. Okay. And I never feel to answer them. So there you go. There's how you can get in touch with Peter.

Yeah. So thank you. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you, Dee, for producing.