The Team House - Recce: Small Team Missions Behind Enemy Lines | Koos Stadler | Ep. 134

Episode Date: February 26, 2022

A gripping first-hand account of the combat operations and life of a member of the secretive and elite South African Special Forces, known as ‘Recces’. South African Special Forces, known as the ‘Recces’, are an elite group of soldiers that few can aspire to join. Shrouded in secrecy due to the covert nature of their work, the legendary Recces have long fascinated, but little is known about how they operate. Now one of this select band has written a tell-all book about the extraordinary missions he embarked on and the nail-biting action he experienced in the Border War.  Shortly after passing the infamously grueling Special Forces selection course in the early 1980s, Koos Stadler joined the so-called Small Teams group at 5 Reconnaissance Regiment. This sub-unit was made up of two-man teams and was responsible for numerous secret and highly dangerous missions deep behind enemy lines. With only one other team member, Stadler was sent to blow up railway lines and enemy fighter jets in the south of Angola. As he crawled in and out of enemy-infested territory, he stared death in the face many times. Koos' book:  https://www.amazon.com/Recce-Small-Missions-Behind-Enemy/dp/1612004040 Today's Sponsors: 👇 A-TAC FITNESS (Veteran owned and operated) https://www.ATACFITNESS.com Use the promo code "TEAM10" for 10% off! Selection Starts Here. Redacted Coffee Company (Veteran founded and employee owned) https://REDACTEDCOFFEE.com/ Who do you love more?  Use the promo code TEAMJACK or TEAMDAVE for 20% off your order! Thanks for supporting the companies that support the show! For all bonus content including 2 Bonus episodes per month PLUS hours of bonus segments with our guests... Subscribe to our Patreon!👇 https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Team House merch: https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963 Social Media Links:  The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Dave’s Twitter:  https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21 Team House Discord: https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here: https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links): https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample Want to...Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

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and those with kids under the age of five, with free support services to help them build confidence in their parenting journey. Everyone deserves to have someone they can turn to for support with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. Special operations, covert ops, espionage, the team house, with your host, Jack Murphy, and David Park. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the team house. I'm Jack Murphy, joining you remotely from an undisclosed location in the continental United States. And I'm here tonight with David Park, who you should see up on screen in a moment. And our guest tonight is Coos Stadler. He is the author of Recki, small team missions behind enemy lines. Cooz served in the South African Special Forces, otherwise known as the Reckys, which, um, He had a number of very unique and interesting experiences, but one of his specialities was small team operations, doing two-man recitations and some of the most hair-raising operations that many of you have never heard about before.

So we're very pleased to have Kuz on the show. I've wanted to have him on as a guest for probably a year at this point and been thinking about it ever since I first read this book a few years ago. So Kuz, thank you so much for joining us on the show tonight. Thank you, Jack. Only a pleasure. Absolutely. And we're going to dive right into it. I just got to throw it over to Dave for a quick word from one of our sponsors.

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Great stuff. They have, sorry, they have, they have, they sell both the low volume kind of high performance mask and also the full volume mask. If you want to practice your purging clearing, you get a little piece of line or a couple pieces of line in it for your underwater not tying, and a snorical, you know, so that you can, one, work on your breath pads, you work on, you know, breathing in sort of an enclosed environment. and also doing your purges and stuff like that.

Being comfortable in a pool, being comfortable underwater is an important part of many types of selections. And also, it's just a really great way to stay in the state. So check out our friends at ATAC Fitness at ATAC Fitness.com. promo code Team 10 for 10% off. That's Team 10 for 10% off. ATAQ Fitness selection starts here. So Coos, if we could see. start off the way we ask most of our guests right off the bat is if you can tell us about your

origin story. I'd like to hear a little bit about your upbringing and what led your path into the South African military. You had kind of an interesting background actually studying theology before signing up. So if you could take it through a little bit of that. Yeah, before I saw the light. Jack, I grew up in a very rural area, you know, remote. And firstly, southwest Africa and then the northern and northwestern parts of South Africa. Southwestern Africa being Namibia today. So my father was at the time initially a minister of the church in our denomination and later a minister in the black, you know, what we used to call the African. denomination of his church.

So, yeah, I had a very conservative and interesting, well, for me, upbringing, and parts of the then the Kalahari or Kalahadi Desert. And I got to know about the special forces, the wreckings, actually living there in a little town called Ariams Flay. which is near the border on the Namibian side, when trucks and vehicles started running through towards the north of Namibia, you know, for the border to combat the insurgents on the northern border. So I saw these vehicles passing through and became interested.

And eventually at high school learned about the Rekkes, you know, air land and sea, and it just gripped me. from the very day that I heard it in a classroom at school. And yeah, just got hooked then. But you were initially following in your father's footsteps, right, studying to become a priest. I did because both my brothers, my older brothers and my father were, you know, in the service, in the church the service. So all three of them were pastors. So it was sort of expected of me as the third son to follow in their footsteps.

So I went to university to Stalemosh in South Africa and lasted a year and a half. And then just went back to actually I did my national service and joined. As I described in the book, joined 3-1 battalion, which was a bushman, you know, the son people of Southern Africa, I joined the unit, stayed with them for three years, and then went to Stalemosh to the university to, you know, to sort of fulfill my calling, but then realized after a year that, you know, my heart wasn't there. And I went back to the 3-1 Battalion during that period for what we used to call camps, you know, like citizen force or reserve force camps, you know, like two or three months periods.

And I would just stay there and not go back to university. So that didn't work out. So I decided to do a special forces selection. Could just backing up a little bit, could you tell us a little bit about joining a 3-1 battalion and you found yourself in the Reki detachment there and some of those initial experiences learning about eventually small team operations? Yeah. I had the best three years of my life with the Bushman.

So they had, and we were recruited from, let me just step back one. We, you know, as I said, we were conscripted those days. So I went to then our infantry school, which is at a town called Oateson, where I did my junior leaders and became a second lieutenant. And then I was recruited by 3-1 battalion. They do, all the special units do recruiting rounds at, you know, these units at the leadership units. So I was, when the moment I heard about the Bushman and the reconnaissance wing then, I thought this is my chance. Because I was really young at the time, I was 19 and felt, not felt ready for special forces. demands of special forces those days.

I mean, then the RETES already were like very prominent, very well-known, and as you might recall from those days. So I took the gap and went for 3-1 battalion Riqui. Of course, I had to do a selection upon a selection, you know, because you get inducted there and have to do a selection for the unit. And then another selection for the Riquing. But I breathed through it and spent three years there doing what we used to call tactical reconnaissance. You know, sort of the short, you know, 30 kilometers, up to 60 kilometers actually into enemy territory,

where the special forces would do the deep penetrations and the highly specialized stuff. we just went across the border and just the tactical reconnaissance missions of, you know, enemy installations and stuff. And I picked up a lot of experience at a wonderful time there. And yeah. What were some of the more notable operations? Like if you could tell us through, like, walk us through like some of your first missions actually, you know, going out on live combat patrols and what that was like. Yeah, I can recall maybe sort of the most hair-raising one. We had to do a reconnaissance of a base of then the MPLA, which was the, you know, they were in charge.

They were the ruling party at the time in Angola, MPLA, and had to be. basis stretching right up to the border, you know, on the Angolan side. But they were also accommodating the Swapu insurgents, which was our enemy. So we had to do a reconnaissance of the space in order to determine, you know, whether there were Swapu elements and, of course, you know, talk in an attack force if we found it to be to be inhabited by Swapu as well. So we did this reconnaissance,

but not at the time. We were not, you know, we did things by trial and error. We didn't have like set, you know, modus operandi at the time because we were just learning as we went, you know, sort of so what we did, we went with an eight-man team with the idea of splitting up on the target

and going to different points, which in the end did not work out because once we split up in the target, we got out of range. It's vast, you know, it's spread out. It was like a brigade base around an airfield.

So you can imagine at night our little radios at the time didn't reach. So we lost comms with each other and then, you know, when we ran into trouble, we couldn't communicate. But what happened on that target that night, as we, you know, I was one of the two men teams that penetrated. So as we approached the one line of trenches on the sort of on the river side was along the river line. you know, the Air Force, the airstrip, and then the base around it. And not knowing that it was inhabited, the trenches were inhabited by guards.

You know, they were actually in the trenches. And the mistake that we made, not knowing any better, we approached against the rising moon, like 2 o'clock in the morning. And as you know, you know, as you approach the moon, you're blinded. You can't see into the bushes underneath. Even the night vision couldn't penetrate the bushes. So the next moment, you know, this guy cocked his okay and challenged us. I mean, from literally five, ten meters away. So that was scary, but fortunately for us, my friend who was a bushman and could speak the language.

He sort of, you know, said, oh, sorry, my friend. and pretended to be drunk, which gave us that split second to just duck down and crawl away and run. But, of course, that scared, you know, that raised the alarm because then we started hearing shouts and lights went on all over. And luckily, because the other two teams inside heard the commotion, they started moving back and we could talk to each other. again and had an escape route and escape innovation plan worked out so we managed to get out but we chased the whole day next day just running and anti-tracking and changing direction just crazy until we were finally picked up by by choppers could you tell us a little bit more about the Bushmen because I think our

audience probably doesn't really understand who they were or that how Rekis were, you know, you guys were not a segregated unit by any means. I mean, it was integrated with black Africans as well. Yes, yes. We refer to them as Bushmen, which is not an acceptable term today anymore, because they are the Koi Sun people, you know, these short, brown-skinned people of the Halahadi Desert of Southern Africa. So they're not, you know, they're not, we're not categorized as black people, but as, as Bushmen. But if you, if you look at it today, the terminology that is accepted is the koi or the koi sum people.

Still all over Southern Africa, but of course today they are established in sort of communities in there. And they provided like, as I recall from your book, like invaluable expertise when it came to tracking and counter tracking they just knew the land so well absolutely they are hunter traditionally hunter gatherers so as you could imagine them are really good at tracking at reading sign at you know they have really well custom adapted to the bush and and they were lifesavers you know they would pick up enemy sign noises just sign from the bush like that, you know, amazing. And let me say this, you know, they were the unit that I was with.

They were recruited in Angola during Operation Savannah, which was South Africa's sort of surge into Angola at the time, supported by America or some Western states, against communist expansion in Southern or in Angola. So when we started with thought, after Operation Savannah, we took the Bushmen because at the time they were suppressed by the black people of southern Angola. They were the slaves of some of the tribes. So we started pulling them out and that became the unit. That became 3-1 battalion. Yeah. And really

outstanding soldiers. One of the other things I wanted to ask you, if I recall correctly, you had a pretty interesting lion story in your book. Yeah. Are you talking about the one where we had the lectures and we put the lion sounds on? Are you talking about where the lion grabbed the guy in the sleeping bag? Oh, two stories. Which one? Whichever you want to tell.

I was personally involved in the audio, in the, you know, the sound, the lion-roaring one, so I'll tell that one. You know, these little people, these Bushmen, they were sitting in a lecture room. Now, the lecture room was, you know, from thatched, it was a thatched roof, you know, from material from the felt, you know, it was like a very crude lecture room with, the benches were just logs. And, okay, we had tables. But we were lecturing them on all sorts of, you know, at the time, I think medical first aid in that.

But what we did in the meanwhile, some of the guys went and they rigged loudspeakers with tape. You know, those days we played tapes. And I had a recording of lions roaring. And initially the lion would just give a little, you know, like they do that very scary. And they had that set up. And I was in front of the class now talking to this classroom of maybe 20 guys. And the next thing, there's this faint lion in the background. Now I could see it going through there, you know, there's something here.

But not quite sure. Now their weapons were stacked outside. you know we had a rack for the weapons so the weapons were outside and they were sitting without their weapons now and and i could hear them saying lion lion and and i said guys you know there now this is in the middle of the savannah region of the caprivi strip at the time between guzuana and angola and i mean there are lions but not right there at our camp so i said hey guys no lions here, you know that. And then that lion just broke loose. They were like jumping over the side of the thing to grab their weapons, you know, and just grab their weapons and now stood like a

ready for this lion. And now this thing was roaring, like really going for it. And they were so scared. I mean, everyone was scared by this time because it was like here, you know, it sounded like the lion is about to enter. And the next moment, the tape switched on to elephant trumpeting, you know, and they realized, there, we got them. They were so angry with us that we caught them out. They were so angry, they threw down the weapons, they walked away. Really angry, but we got them there.

It was really funny. While you were there in the Rekke detachment, there was, a if I recall a senior NCO who began telling you a lot of stories about the actual recies, the special forces, some some war stories and things that got you really interested in maybe going to selection, right? Yeah, I actually forgot that that was the turning point for me. Yeah, the guy was our unit sergeant major, you know, the RSM of the unit. And he used to be a RECI before, before he became a senior warrant officer.

And he was a legend in his own right, but he was telling me about a guy called Andre Diderkes, he used to be a small team operator, and he actually started the concept of two men teams, two men reconnaissance missions. Andre Diderks, he was, we called him Diddies, you know. And this guy, Did he, in the end, he had two of our, you know, the highest declaration for bravery. He had two of them. So he was a legend in his own lifetime. He unfortunately passed away later.

But this guy used to tell me of this guy's, and he had quite intimate knowledge of their operations, you know. And it was just to me astonishing, you know, the kind of things that they. did. And I got to there, yes. And so after your national service, it was back to college, back to university, but that just wasn't sitting with you. The plug had been

planted in your ear. I saw the light, yeah. And so what was that point when you decided, now I'm going to drop out of school and go back into the military? Yeah, a jacket was almost sort of

I wouldn't say expected, but in my family, you know, they knew that I just loved the bush and had it in my mind, in my heart. So I was at Stalinger, Bush, I broke out of the whatever it was Greek class, the classical Greek class, and just went out to, at the time at the sea there, Gordon's Bay, and just sat there on the rocks and made my, made up my mind, found my dad, said, look, this is not for me, I want to go back and join special forces. And of course, he was shocked and he was, in a way, disappointed. But he fully supported me. My father was, we were really close.

So since that day, from that very moment, he just supported me. Which is great, you know, because then it was a long journey to finally get to small teams. Because, you know, it's now leaving university. initially, you know, the pre-selection, the selection. And then I wasn't accepted. It was not because special forces had, wouldn't say, different levels. But, of course, you had to specialize. You know, you couldn't just walk into small teams.

You had to, you know, you had to grind it out. Could you talk to us about the selection process that you went through, selection and training? Yeah, the special forces selection, you know. Special forces selection used to still today. The concept was tied up then and it's still the norm today in the RECI's. You do a pre-selection which consists of like obviously medical, basic fitness, biokinetic tests, psychological tests and those.

So it's a week of pre-selection. paper and physical and medical. Once you pass that and the, normally that would be about 30% of, you know, 30 out of 100 guys passing that. Actually, less than that, maybe 20 to 30%. And they would then go on to the, what we still call today, the special forces orientation.

The simple reason for the special forces orientation, which is a four or five week course, is to level the playing field. Because, you know, the guys now come from all sorts of units. Some chefs, some Air Force, some, as I suppose, is across the world. You know, they come from all walks of life. I came from civilian life at the time, from university. So that was a good leveler to level the playing field. and of course to get the guys fit and acclimatized.

In itself, it's a harsh course because you start with weights of 30-kilogram, initially walking like 20-kilov-rude-martreys. That is, you know, just building up strength, doing PT mornings and afternoon, you know, like just continuous strain on the guys. and also there's a fair element of, you know, pressure, of psychological pressure, keeping you awake, etc. So after the selection, after the initial, this phase, you get a week's break and then you go into selection, the selection course, you know, get a week to fatten up and prepare, and then the selection course, which is maybe a little bit different.

from other countries, you know, like SAS or even, let me not mention other units, but here we do like a week, less than a week. It's actually like four days of real, real hard grind, you know, really hard grind, not sleeping, not eating. And it consists of a set of of exercise where you do, you know, like for example, carrying a drum of water or carrying what we used to call the iron cross, which is a set of ions, you know, like to get put together, but design so that it's really uncomfortable and you have to work as a team.

And of course, individual exercises, a combination of individual and group exercise. and you are evaluated by psychologists, a team of psychologists and Reki operators, seasoned operators. So by the end of those few days, if you make it, you qualify as an operator. But then, only then your training starts, which lasts another nine months. Wow. What did the training consist of? set a series of courses that we do.

We do the courses as, you know, separate courses. So once you've done the course, you get the qualification. So if you fall off, if you happen to sprain an ankle or whatever, you would be, you could potentially join the next year or the next cycle. If you follow me, you can, you know, you sort of build. up your qualifications over that nine-month period. And it includes the first course is Special Forces Individual, which focuses now where the course before selection focused on general military hardware, military equipment.

Now you would go into Special Forces kits. You know, you get issued with a Special Forces backpack. You do, you get special forces weapon, all the weapons that Special Forces would operate with and you do lots of navigation, lots of, you know, tactical exercises, but still on a level which is sort of, I would say, like a section leading course, you know, more on the general military principles. When you pass that course, you would go on to parachute course, so not necessarily in this order, but basic parachute jumping.

Then a seaborne orientation at our seaborne special forces unit, which is four-recchi at a town called Langeban. Then you would go on to more advanced courses like your demolitions course, medical, basic medical first aid course, level three. And then final course, oh, sorry, survival tracking. bushcraft tracking and survival in one, which is back in the bush and really outstanding course still today, you know. So we accommodate, even today they accommodate guys from across the world on that course. Then that is followed by your final what we call minor tactics, which is your all-out tactical course based on, you know,

sort of your special forces requirements of penetration behind anything. any line so it incorporates actually all the causes that you've done until then now come together because you get to work with the air force and get to do you know of course of course close air support operations or or tasks with the air force get to do your medical you get to do you get to survive when you do your technical exercises so it's a whole combination of all your training up to them. I don't know if that answers to the question. Yeah, did they train you? Did you guys have specializations?

Like in today's American Special Forces, for instance, you know, they have a specialized medic and a specialized engineer, you know, demolitions, things like that. Did you guys have specializations or was everybody kind of cross-trained and equally trained in everything? Everyone was cross-trained, but of course, after your initial, this initial training cycle, once you've qualified as, you know, you've got your operator's badge and your wings and all that, then you would start to specialize. Okay.

Now, where we differ from the, that's a good question, because where we differ from the American concept is we don't have set teams with a medic, a radio operator, demolitions expert, no. We work in small groups and you would have a basic team. And in that team, or the team would actually specialize, you know, you would ideally, when you deploy, would want a medic and a radio operator. But everyone has the basic skills. Right.

Right. Yeah. Very interesting. Real quick. Sorry. Jack. I'm sorry. I was muted there.

That's okay. Am I doing the read, Dave? Whichever. But, hey, yeah. Go ahead, Jack, if you'd like to. So, yeah, just off the top of my head, I've been drinking this coffee for the last week or so. It's redacted coffee, and I really enjoyed it so far. Let me see.

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So it's really just whose beard do you like better, mine or Dave's. That's what it comes down to. So you're going to have to choose. Yeah. So, yeah. Team Jack or Team Dave as your promo codes. That's a capital T and J. I don't know if it's case sensitive for Jack and capital T and D for Team Dave, Team Dave, Team Dave, Team Dave, team Dave. Anyway, sorry. But you can see they've got great, it's a great brand, great artwork.

I don't know if you can see this. It's the MK Ultra, which is a light roast. And then they have the trade craft, which is a medium roast. But yeah, check out our friends at Redacted Coffee. It's Redacted Coffee.com. And Team Dave for 20% off. So let's get into joining 51 reconnaissance commando and starting to do pseudo-operations. Yeah, Jack, after I qualified,

it was expected that, you know, the youngsters, the single guys would join 5-1 reconnaissance commando, which was based in the operational zone on Dengwa, which is basically in the very northern corner of today's Namibia. The reason being that, you know, they ran short of leader group then, and we were expected to serve there as team leaders. Now what made this unit different was they did what we used to call pseudo operations, or pseudo-gorilla operations. And I was simply acting as the enemy, you know, dressing up as the enemy, wearing the same

weapons kit, boots, everything, and really infiltrating enemy detachments. also the majority of the units the guys were turned you know switched gorillas they were captured swapurillas that were sort of either you know all sorts of ways either turned with money you know they would get a salary a medical the family would be cared for or um or by other means you know if a guy didn't want to turn then those days I can say it now it's 40 years later but those days if the guy was captured by South Africans and it was known and he went back into the communities he would be targeted you know he would be he would be killed by by our opponents so the majority of

them opted to stay and I had very loyal and really very very very very good soldiers from from you know ex-swapo and I actually operated with the bigger part of my team like 80% of the team would be Swapurillas or ex-Swapurillas and what we then did we with the intelligence that we had we would deploy into an area the area would be what we called used to call would be frozen you know it would be out of balance for all other of military, South African military forces so that we could operate there freely and not be targeted by our own forces, if you follow what I'm saying. So, you know, one of the operations, I recall we were dropped in Angola as a team, of course

clandestinely, you know, secretly, and had to cross the Kunene River all on an infiltration route of the then Swapu detachment that used to operate in that area. And we worked it out very carefully. It was after a contact that the detachment had with the South Africans and they were scattered. So we were following their infiltration route, telling the locals that we were part, we were remnants of the detachment and trying to link up with our buddies and you know then through the local population get in touch with the gorillas and make set up a meeting you know it was scary stuff but it happened now you may ask how with my white skin and you know Western features but we

had we used to call it black is beautiful but it used to be a brown like a like a what makeup artists use today you know used to color the face, I had an Afro, you may recall the term Afro week, I suppose it's still a term, but I used to cut it, like cut it short so it looked fairly authentic, and just cover it, cover it with a hat, you know, swap a hat. So, you know, I would pass within meters of local population and enemy without them knowing. And of course, my team would shield me, they would always protect me

and not let me come face to face. I mean, people would recognize, of course, my eyes and that. But I was never called out. I was never spotted. And then the team, they would set up the meeting. They would, you know, meet the detachment representatives. And from that, you know, the operation would lead either to an ambush or to

capturing someone. So yes, I did that for a year. It was really scary stuff. You said it's really scary. Do you remember your first mission doing that and like walking through enemy lines, walking near an enemy? Do you remember your feelings? Yeah, just scared. For the moment, they picked you up and finger to. Yes. Actually, the very first mission was this one that I just mentioned. We had to cross the Kunene River, and we found, because we knew we had all the intelligence, we found the rubber duck deflated and hidden under, you know, it was like cached.

We found an actual cache with weapons and equipment. Then we found the rubber duck. We got onto the, we inflated the rubber duck and crossed the Kunene River. We had to cross it, you know, by ferrying the guys over. And I recall an incident where the last boat, the guy had the RPG, and the RPG got hooked up somehow. And it had a bomb in it. And it went off on the rubber duck.

Fortunately, with a backblast going into the water. Oh, my gosh. And the rocket going, too! So luckily no one was injured. Yeah. Amazingly. But yeah, that compromise almost. compromised the operation because then the locals asked what happened and you know we had

twisted the round of it and met up with the guerrilla group you know with me hiding away and the guys making contact i cannot imagine how stressful that must have been you know they've what sorry what you know it was literally like this because you you didn't on that mission we had a guy that was turned a week before. Right. So without him knowing that, we removed his AK's firing pin. He thought he was part of the team and he would engage in a fight, but we removed his firing pin. And, you know, I used to sleep away from the guys when we went to, you know, into the hide,

into the temporary base for the night. I would sneak away, find a patch where there's dried leaves and, you know, like dried grass, and that so you could hear someone approaching and literally sleep away from the team because you never knew, you know, you, I mean, I trusted most of them. But the guy like this, were there ever, with that with that pseudo element, whether it was yours or somebody else's, were there ever issues? I mean, did the other side try to infiltrate like double agents into that? Did anything like that ever happen? It happened. It happened with some of the teams. I was never involved in a team like that, but it did happen.

It happened all the time. And our intelligence guys, being, you know, some of them having been part of Swapu before, would always be vigilant and try to, you know, counter that. But it did happen, but fortunately not in a team that I operated. Did it ever create a major issue for any of the other teams where it compromised an entire team? or an entire mission or anything like that? No, not that I'm aware of. It might have happened, but not that I'm aware of.

What did happen, and this was another major problem there. We had a police unit. You might have heard of it called Kufut. You know, Kufut means... Krobar. Krobar, oh. So these guys were really, really aggressive. South African, I mean, they were our police.

But they would ignore the frozen areas, the boundaries, and just barge into an area. And this happened, I wouldn't say often, but it occasionally happened, where they would then get onto our team's tracks, you know. And the only way that the team could expose themselves, the white guy would just open up, show his bare chest, you know, twist his cap around with the dadelow on,

and just walk out in the open because otherwise these guys were, as I said, they were really aggressive. They wouldn't, you know, they would just come in with the Casper vehicles and start shooting and really, really aggressive. So we had those incidents often, you know, where the team then would be compromised

and they couldn't even go back into those areas because it would be no one among the population. Right. Were those frozen areas? Were they static that they were always frozen? Or did they shift according to sort of the overall strategy? No, that was the problem. They always, you know, depending on where you needed to operate,

they were frozen, you know, for that period. And that was the problem because now it had to be communicated to all the military units and the police. Right. And unfortunately, some of them would just ignore it, you know, just barge in there. Chris, could you then tell us about, you know, your real passion was you know, getting to do small team operations. Could you tell us about getting over to Five Recki and how that you got started there?

Yes. This unit that I was referring to now, 5-1 Commando was one of the Five Reiki Commandoes. There was 5-1 Commando then, then 5-2 Commando, which was an offensive unit, or sub-unit, 5-3 Commando, and then the unit that I wanted to join 5-4-Kuman, that used to be the small team, you know, the small-team specialized teams.

So that was my mission. I wanted to end up there. But of course, as I said, you know, you can't just walk in there and have to follow the guys, you know, have to serve in the offensive units. I did my time in 5-1, Commandu, and then finally I just kept on crying I kept on saying I want to join

Andre Didrichs until my unit commander then Colonel Heels he couldn't take it anymore he just gave up he said okay just go just go okay and of course Didis was calling from his end because I've been pushing for this now for the best part of two years you know asking to join small team so so he was pushing for it for me to come

and then I was lucky enough to join at a town called Palabora where five Reki is situated to join 5-1 or 5-4 commanding or small teams. Maybe I can just mention this. At the time, small-team missions, small-team operations or the small-team concept was driven by this guy under Didericks. And at the time, all the Special Forces Unit, the C-Bor-E-Bor-E-Barrations, unit at Langeban and the sort of urban airborne unit at Turban, one Riki, their guys came to five Reki. So we centralized the small team capability because it was,

you know, it was high-powered deep penetrations, was really sensitive missions. So we centralized the capability at five Reki, yes. Were the seaborne teams just using, like, the water for infiltration, or were there actual water operations, like ship to ship operations, things like that going on also? Yeah, both. And also, you know, the typical amphibious operations where, for example, there would be an offensive action against an oil refinery near the coast. Okay. They would drop the guys by, you know, by a rubber duck from either the tech craft or the submarine. They would go in, do the reconnaissance and then talk the attack force in, yes.

So both. Ship to ship. Yeah. And for our audience who doesn't know what a rubber duck is, I mean, it's basically like a rubberized watercraft, like a zodiac or something like that. Yeah, yeah, Zodiacs, specifically Zodax. We use Zodax all the time. I wasn't Seaborne, although I ended up later years as the second in command of the seaborn unit. But during my operational years, I wasn't seaborne, no. What was it like walking into the, I guess, the team house for 5-4 Reki and meeting all of these guys who were like legends in your mind?

and really meeting some top-notch professionals and that you're going to work with. Jack, that's an interesting question. I was overwhelmed at a time that, you know, I'd been accepted. But our special forces being a close community and really small, you know, in comparison with others, I used to know, I knew the guys before, you know, and I used to communicate with them and I was friends with them before I even ended up there.

Because what used to happen, they would come to Undangwa, where 5-1 commander was, and they would do their deployments, the small team missions from there. That was where the tactical headquarters for most operations would be. I met these guys like many times before and got to know them and got to sort of force myself in there a little bit. So by the time I walked into the Cumbando headquarters and five Recki, I was on close terms with most of them. But still, you know, it was like to me it was just the turning point of my career. It was just an absolutely wonderful experience, you know, opportunity.

And then let's see here. What's Let's start talking about some of these operations that you went on because, I mean, I think they're fascinating. And most people here in the United States have never really heard of these missions. Like even people who are aware of, you know, say some of the British SAS missions. I mean, you guys did some really daring, daring missions. And I definitely like to get into them. One of them being Operation Cerebrus, where you guys were charged with shooting down enemy. the aircraft. Could you tell us a little bit about that mission coming down and how you began

planning for it and then deploying for it? Yeah, maybe I can just give a little bit of context there, you know, the political and military situation at the time, if you want. Yeah, please. So as I've said before, the MPLA was they were running the country, I mean, Angola at the time. And their main opponent was Unita. Now, Unita used to be the rebel force under Jonas Savimbi, supported by South Africa and other Western states.

So Unita was situated in the sort of southeastern corner of Angola, while the MPLA had the control of most of the rest of the country. However, Unita was also well established in the rural areas in much, or most of Angola. So the MPLA couldn't reach their far-off bases by road or by rail, because between us and Unita, we just destroyed the rail network and destroyed the roads, and they couldn't travel on the roads at all, not even by convoy. So they were forced to fly in. You know, there was a constant like, you know, 20, 30, 40 Antonovs flying from Lubangu, flying from the major cities to the operational area.

So as you might imagine, you know, there's a little town called an airfield called Menong, which is in the southeast of Angola. And they had to be supplied by aircraft, by Antonovs, you know, A.20s A.N. Sorted various aircraft. And it was like a highway, you know, these aircraft flying across the whole day. And we targeted those air routes.

And that was the mission of Operation Cerberus. We wanted to shoot down, you know, one, if not more, of these Antonovs, simply because we wanted to do, needed to disrupt the air supply because they supplied everything, you know, food and weapons, everything. And we deployed on many of those missions. Cerberus is just one that I described, because that was my first one. But we shot down many of the Russian aircraft.

They were all Russian aircraft flown by Russian pilots and Cuban pilots. at the time. Now, I said I need to give some context, but you must understand that, you know, this was to us, a communist expansion into Southern Africa. And at the time, you know, Russia was the main driving force behind communist expansion. And together with the Cubans, they had deployments right up to the very front, you know, as advisors as pilots as even physically on the ground you know as advisors to the to the detachments and yes that that was our target so we wanted to shoot down the antelmos

so how did those deployments go and if you could describe you know actually you know i think on your first operation your team ended up shooting down a mig right yes i wasn't with the team that no not a mig an MI-25 Oh, okay. You know, the gunship, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, on that operation, we shot down first an Islander, which turned out to be the paymaster,

because it was full of guanzas, you know, with the local currency. It was just packed with banknotes. And then when they came looking for the Islander, we shot down an 1824, not an 1824, or MI-24, you know, the helicopter. Yeah.

What kind of surface air systems or man pads were you guys using at that time? We, well, most of our anti-aircraft, you know, our A-A equipment was captured. It was the enemies. So we used Sam Sevens. And then later on, I'm sure you will ask about that. We'll get to the, we deployed them. SAM-9s, you know, SA-9s based on BRDM-2s. But I'll get to that.

Those initial operations, we used SAM-Sevens. You know, we deployed SAM-7s. They were not accurate. They were not nearly, you know, what today's systems are. Right. And actually on this operation, sorry, I'm disrupting myself now, or countering myself, but on this operation, we already used the BRDM2 with the SAM-9 system one.

We had to have captured BRDM-2s or SAM-9 systems that we took in on this operation, Kilani. And about how many aircraft do you think these operations ended up shooting down over, you know, the span of their operational history? Jack, that's the question that I've never thought of. because it wasn't only small teams that deployed, it was between us, Unita teams that were dedicated to it,

and one Riki, you know, the other special forces unit. I would, at a guess, and, you know, please don't quote me, anyone. I would say I'd a guess maybe over the years between 10 and 20, maybe 15. I have a. Don't quote me on it. I had a contact of mine tell me how the CIA delivered a shipment of Stinger missiles to Unita at one point, Jonas Zavimbi.

And whether or not any of those stingers were used to shoot down actual Russian aircraft is something I've never been able to ascertain. Yeah. Again, don't quote to me on it, but yeah, they were used and they were effectively used. We didn't touch them. We didn't touch them. I mean, us, special forces, we were not allowed to. But, yeah, we saw them. Why were you not allowed to?

And why were you only using captured systems? Is that to mask the signature? Yes. Dave, absolutely. You hit it right on the mark. All these operations were clandestine, non-traceable. So we didn't want to leave any sign that South Africans were there. And yes, it was sensitive in the sense that America didn't support South Africa, at least not overtly, because, you know, of global politics.

They couldn't become involved in the apartheid state fighting across the borders into Angola. Right. But they did support Jonas Savimbi, Unita, which we like really hands-on supported. We deployed with them physically. I was with Unita teams half of my operational career. So we were like this with Unita, but we couldn't say openly that we, that we are using, well, we didn't use American equipment. You know, we honestly didn't touch it.

It's all a very either unwritten or not often written about history that most people are not aware of. And, you know, as you mentioned, here in America, we often don't talk about it. I think largely for political reasons because of the apartheid regime at the time. So, yeah, it almost kind of gets swept under the rug, right, that all these things happened. Yeah. Yeah, those were interesting times, you know. I mean, Americans supported the push of South Africa during Operation Savannah, supported us financially, supported us fully.

It couldn't be said, you know. It couldn't be art in the public domain. Right. And I think that's one of the things that are very complicated about, unless people actually do their own research, but it's one of the things that's very complicated about talking about history at that point in time, because one, you had the apartheid government, which was, you know, not, especially looking back from this point in history, you know, it was not acceptable.

And at the same time, so much was going on that it wasn't about race, but about politics, about, you know, the anti-communist expansion and everything. True. No, you captured it well there, Dave. I mean, my buddies, my soldiers, all black, we were all integrated. Long before integration became the buzz thing in South Africa. Right.

So while it was apartheid, we were like, you know, together. It wasn't, race wasn't the issue at all. So, no, you're very right there. Yeah. Could, the next one was Operation Killarney, which involved sabotaging rail lines in Angola. This is particularly fascinating. If you could tell us about that operation. Yeah, I'd love to because that was sort of my,

you know, I wouldn't say my specialised field, but I used to love those operations because it was in the very arid desert regions of western Angola, southwestern Angola, between the town of Lubangu. Lubangu was at the time the sort of major base, enemy base, you know, with huge airport and of course the main train station supplying or with the railway line from the coast supplying

the forces, you know, and golden forces more inland. So what was again, if I can just give the background, from Namib, which is the coastal town with a major harbour, trains used to run inland towards. Lubungu. And of course they were all freight trains taking equipment, food, weapons and ammunition to Lubungu. So that was the main supply route of the forces at Lubongu. And from Lubangu, then it would be taken by aircraft, as I said, forward. So our next target, or target throughout war was the train the railway line between Lubongo and Nambipip. And small teams, particularly, we cut that line and had it rendered it unserviceable for months

at a time. And it was a major hassle for Angolans because, you know, we just persistently cut that line. It sounds simple, but it was a highly sensitive mission. then. Because what the Angolans did, because Junita was cutting this line, what they did, they put

a coach, what do you call it in English, a truck, you know, the freight truck in front of the locomotives. The locomotives used to be diesel electric ones. So they would push this thing in front

for, you know, if it hit the landmine, then damage would be relatively, you know, not severe. So they would push this thing off the line and open the line up again. And of course, they would have soldiers on the next truck, you know, as a reaction force. So it was quite dangerous, you know, you couldn't sit there and, you know, press your, you know, your chief, your initiator, detonated and and you know it was open felt it was like desert terrain so it was scary stuff you couldn't just you couldn't just go and do like a traditional conventional

ambush but we worked it out to you know to the letter we had a company that used to support us from a kit, you know, specialized equipment point of view, called EMLC, stood for electrical, mechanical, what was that? Okay, but it was basically an engineering company that supported us. And they designed a very clever device. Firstly, we had slurry, which is explosive, that flow, you know, you would pour it out from a plastic bag. it would flow in between amongst the ballast and set. You know, after a while it would become firm.

Then we had this device that we put on the, you know, obviously covered under the ballast, but it would react only to the electromagnetic field, you know, the field of the train. which was diesel electric. As you know, diesel electric train, the diesel just generates the power for the electric motors. So there would be an electromagnetic fuel, and this device only reacted to that electromagnetic fuel, which means it wouldn't detonate under the wagon in front. Yeah. plus it had anti-lift, anti-light, you know, light sensor.

So it was for the time, very advanced stuff, you know. That's amazing. And so we would sneak in at night. Sorry, Dave. No, I was just saying that's amazing. Yeah, for the time, it was good stuff. Yeah. And the other thing is, you know, because we couldn't, you had to work preferably, very, very accurately,

because these guys would come on the line and spot any deviations, you know, on the ballast. If you turn the stones around, the rocks around, you know, they would pick it up immediately because of the coloring of the stones. They would see where you have worked, you know. So what we did is we had a little black tent designed, a tent that you would put on the track and was designed to keep out any light, you know. So one guy would stand outside and listen, you know, just cover both ways. And the other guy would crawl into the tent and work in white light.

You know, he had his lamp on, had white light, and just work, getting the slurry in, setting up the device, camouflaging it by white light, you know, to reduce the chances of us leaving traces. And then once he's done, it would just take the 10 down and move out. Now, the other thing that this device, I should have said this before, this device could activate, it would activate after a period, okay, for safety. But then it would be lying dormant there for up to three months. Wow. You know, before it actually activates. Wow.

And once it activate, it will take the first electromagnetic, pulse. So it could lie there for, and we would set them. We would plant three, then we would set them one for a week later, one for a month later, one for three months later. So it wouldn't activate until that timer went off. So they, so that's amazing. So exactly. So out of curiosity, like, you know, you were cutting off supply lines, how deep into enemy lines were you going to do this this was 250 kilos into angola so yeah so you wouldn't have any support you know there was no there was no air support no helicopter could come there the best you could do is have the I mean our our aircraft the mirage is coming to at least give you a little bit of a boost

but you know it was they had the enemy had air superiority so you couldn't have our air flying around and, you know, being exposed to the mix at the bungal. Plus, when we got dropped off, we used to fly a map of the earth. Yeah. The helicopters used to fly low in, drop us off, and fly out low, and all at night, you know, because you couldn't dare flying South African aircraft in those regions. And when you would go in, so like 150 miles into enemy, territory, how long would you stay there to do these operations?

Yeah. Another very, you know, good question, Dave, because, as you can imagine, because it couldn't be replenished easily. You're right. You could be replenished, but would be another operation, you know, to replenish. So what we did is we would, the might we get off, we would establish a cap. cash. Okay? Yeah. Water, batteries, food, ammunition, medical supplies that would last you anything up to two months. So my operations, most of them lasted three weeks, four weeks, or even longer.

The longest that we deployed was 72 days without support, without resupply. All you would do is go back to your cash, resupply water and food, and just go again. What we did later here is this one guy in my book, not this guy. By the way, this was the original book. The case-made book that you have was the one published in Britain. Yeah. So this was the original one. So this guy, Victor Renu, he introduced, actually not him, his colleague, which is also in the book, my mate later on, he introduced the system where, from the cash, we would ferry water forward because the big issue was water. Right.

And then food. So we would cash, make a major cash, you know, and establish that very well, buried and, you know, all this good stuff, pepper spray and all of pepper onto the surface. surface, then we would ferry water forward and establish a secondary cache with water. And it took us sometimes going back and ferrying more water in, you know, because as you can imagine, you have 40 kilos to your target now, and it's harsh terrain, and it's, you know, really hot, you know, being Angola, humid. So we would just replenish from the nearer cash.

you would go for a week and then go back to your, you know, your near-ed cash. And up to 72 days, as I said, yeah. And 72 days in the fields a long time. Was that like a long-range surveillance operation on an enemy camp? Or what kept guys out there that long? No, these were these operations. Oh, really? Wow. Yeah, the Okilani operations.

Because, you know, after you've planted your bombs, your, your devices, you know, you would want to monitor what is happening. And you would even redeploy and plant another one, you know, to either go off within a day or two or last another three, two, three months. We had those lines cut for extended periods, you know, and that was the purpose of it. So, yeah, you didn't want to bring the guys back and do another major operation to get them there. So it was to make sure those lines stayed offline for an extended period of time. Yes.

How many trains do you think you guys derailed out on these operations? Again, it's not something that I, you know, I didn't add them up on my fingertips, but at the rough guess, I would say 10. But again, I wasn't involved with all of those. So that's why, you know, of course not. But yeah, I would, at the rough guess, I would say 10. And between us and Unita, maybe 20, you know. So just wreaking havoc in the enemy's rear areas and disrupting those supply lines.

Disrupting the supply lines, yes. And these are two to four-man operations, like two-man teams? Two-man teams. What would often happen, like on this very operation, we would split up. two buddies, you know, two men teams, and do, you know, like go like 30 kilometer out, and they would do a stretch of 10 kilometer, you know, one, two, three minds, and the other team would do a stretch of 10 kilometer, again, two or three mines. That's amazing.

I mean, it really is just incredible. When you finally came out of the field after 72 days, one of these extended operations, I mean, did you look like you just got liberated from a POW camp or something? I mean, like, seriously, like physically and mentally, what was your state like by the time you got back home? It's another tricky one. Well, I can recall, I just wanted to drink a Coke. You know, I just wanted to down a Coke. That was the main thing.

Sure, I don't know how to answer that one. But, I mean, of course, there were programs. to get us back into the swing of things again, you know, into a normal routine. So it was from the preparation right down to the debrief and, you know, sort of re-establishing a routine at home. It was for the time, I think, very professional, you know, advanced. Because even, you know, beforehand, we would work out to the last, calorie, you know, your diet. Right.

You would work out exactly what you'd need, what food you need for the day. Right. And stick to that. You know, it was really planned through the last calorie. Everything, the escape and evasion, planned into the finest minute detail. And likewise, your return home would be, there would be a reception party. You would be reintroduced, you know, over time, taken away to a, There's a picture in your book, if people can see that, the famous five-course meal on return from deployment.

Was that part of the ritual, part of the program? That was the first one, yeah. You get back and had like a five-course meal, yes. So they wouldn't just send you home to your wife and kids after one of these. It was like there was a slow reintegration. Yes, yes. And even so, even then, when you went home, you would be sort of. of, you know, sort of reintroduced into, yeah.

And, you know, at the time, we were not married. If I may say that today, the white guys, we expected them not to be married. We didn't easily accept a married guy into small teams for this reason. You know, we'd be away for three months. But, of course, the black guys were, most of them were married. and had normal family lives in a little establishment called Hebron at 5 Recky. And they would go back and, you know, just go back to their families. Yeah, it was tough times, but you just got it.

How of curiosity, because this has actually been a topic of our show on a few occasions about the lack of an American military of reintegration. back into society. Just like, okay, you're done. You know, thanks for your service. You know, you're out. Yeah. How would they treat that post-mission reintegration into society? What were the steps that they would take for you guys?

Yeah. There wasn't a formal program. Never, ever. And it wasn't talked about. But what would happen is we would go back to, you know, our head office in Pretoria. And the initial part of it was just debriefs, you know, close in with our operational command staff, just debriefings. You know, I had a number of debriefings personally to the chief of our defense force, you know, on occasion to the minister. And then in some operations, for some operations, the guys would be called together and be personally thanked by then the president.

You know, I recall two operations where I was called him, physically called into his house, you know, his home, his official home, to have tea with him. And it was, I mean, it was tea, but, but I mean, all the good stuff was there, you know, it was to stay. Right, right. It was tea. Yeah, it was tea. And I had two of those, you know, where the, so that was part of it, the debriefing away from, you know, you still. away from your family.

And then you would go back and you would have a week or two weeks just recuperating where you just settled back at home. And then we called back, you know, or eventually come back to the office. And the initial parts would just be, you know, getting settled into work again. So there was never an official program. Right. But it was approached with very much sensitivity. it's very interesting

could we then talk about and I apologize if I am mispronouncing this operation Kodad the strike mission you guys had planned to Harare yes as you can imagine at this time

Zimbabwe was now it wasn't Ian Smith Zimbabwe anymore it was under Mugabe. So this was highly sensitive stuff because if we were caught there, we were spies. You know, if we were caught in this country, we would have been apartheid spies and of course with the consequences linked to that. So very sensitive, but our targets there were purely the South African what then used to be our enemy, the African National Congress, which is today the ruling party.

I have to count my words here. But our target used to be ANC or MKU, which was the military wing, Mukhontu-Sizwe. And they used Harare as our targets. They were one, their head office, and then a transition base, which was in a house. So we had actually three targets there. You know, one a logistics facility, one the head office, and one a transition camp in a house. And we just wanted to or had to sort them out. You know, we wanted to cut the supply lines, cut the head office,

cut them. And yeah, we deployed, there was an interesting. deployment. We deployed by helicopter, South African helicopters flying into a very remote area, where agents picked us up, you know, from the old regime, the old Ian Smith regime, they were still agents there and they picked us up, took us to a safe house or a safe area, and we deployed from there one night, just drove into three different targets, Didis, Andre Didericks and the doctor, they were in the center of town on a little hill and commanded the operation from there.

I would just, we attacked the three targets. The one was an interesting one, if I can. Yes, please. Share that. Oh, Jojo Brains and this very guy, Victorino, they had the target in the middle of town. So when they arrived there, they didn't realize, but it was very busy. And of course, they didn't want to kill any civilians, you know. And they had to lob a pre-prepared device into the main office.

And they had a ladder for that. And they wanted to just pitch the lever, put the ladder up, get in, lump the device in, and, you know, casually withdraw. But when they got there, it was quite busy. And there was a guard in front of the building. And he said to them, you can't park here. You know, just move your vehicle. And they said, no, we're going to park here. We need to be.

So there was an altercation. And they had to sort of excuse the guy. Hey, look, we are here on a secret mission. Just stepped out of the way. They left him. And he didn't make any alarm. But he was quite agitated. And casually, you know,

Oh, Victor Reni just put the ladder up with this guy going off here, just making a lot of noise. And Jojo got up, lump the thing in, and they got down and, you know, just tell the guy, hey, just move away from this building. Okay, it's not safe here. And drove away. So, yeah, the bomb went off and the place was semi-destroyed. What happened on your target? My target was also a funny one because we prepared to go into the house and around and I had to do the outbuildings. So when we got there, the front gate was open, but the side where I had to enter, it was all blocked off, which our intelligence didn't pick up.

So the guys entered from the front, went in, and my buddy had to enter via this obstruction on the side. And we had a hard time getting through there, but eventually we did. We got over it and attacked the outbuildings. Basically just throwing stun grenades in. My target, there wasn't anyone. It was clear. but the main target the guys took out you know

there were a few enemy not not many but they took them out and removed a lot of a lot of propaganda a lot of communist inspired pamphlets and stacks and stacks of information you know just signal stuff

so we took it from there and of course took it back to our intelligence guys and and left charges in the house so we virtually destroyed the house and left. So as we drove away, the police were on their way there. And we had the rest of the night then to exfiltrate. Of course, what we did those days, we had a like a spike, a three-pointed spike. Like a cow trap. Yes, exactly, yeah. And dropped that

on our infiltration routes, which we read about in the papers the next morning. Everyone was annoyed. But then went back to an area where we were lifted by the helicopters. So go ahead, Dave. I was just going to ask, how were these teams, you know, whether it was for the train lines or operations like this, was there, were you guys all enlisted? Was there an overall officer? You mentioned intelligence guys. who was like setting these missions and how much operational freedom did you guys have in in determining how you would accomplish the mission that was tasked to you?

There was always one of the senior special forces, either a unit commander or one of the operational staff at the head office appointed as the mission commander. And he would then act as at the tactical headquarters in the case of Angolan operations that used to be at Ondangwa or Katimamulilu or, you know, one of those forward bases in the operational area then, they would act as the tactical mission commander on the ground and report back directly to special forces headquarters. Now the special forces headquarters, of course there was the GOC, the general officer commanding special forces. He was situated there. and he had a direct link to the chief of our defense force,

who in turn for special operations, specialized operations, would talk directly to the minister. So all of them were right from the top, highly regulated. And so our scope on the ground was limited to doing that. But because we had such very convenient, shall I call it that, lines of communication, we could, you know, you can, could in a minute get authorization to, you know, to execute a mission or change, you know, on the ground. So it was flexible in that sense, but you didn't have the freedom of choice to just kill

anyone, do something else, you know, change your mission. No, we didn't have that. But did you guys have the operation control and, like, how you would do something? They said, we want this done. And I'm not talking, you know, like mass, like civilian casualties. But then they say, okay, we want you guys plan the mission. Brief it back to us and we'll, like, bless off on it. Yeah.

You're an ex-military guy. I can see that. Dave, no, we had all the freedom of movement in that sense. Because it was, you know, the concept, mission command. You had your goal set, your target, I mean, your objective, and how you did that, and how you infiltrate it was very, very much left to you. You know, whether you wanted, you know, seaborne infiltration with submarine or free fall in or helicopter in, that was your choice, you know, based on your appreciation of the situation, yes.

That's great. Very true what you're saying. It was mission command. It was, the mission was left to you as the guy on the ground. Could we talk about Operation Coliseum, which was a close-in two-man rec mission that you did? Yeah, love to. The guy that I deployed on that mission was Da Costa. You might have seen his, I'm looking for his photo now, but he was.

my buddy for the best part of my deployments. We used to call him Mr. T. You might recall a B.A. from, what was it, the 18th? Yeah. Yeah. And he looked like that. It was a huge and very impressive guy. He later became Special Forces warrant officer, you know, the warrant officer in charge. Yeah, he just, you know, went on retirement, just recently but him and I used to operate together for long times and that operation was a mission to do a reconnaissance of a guerrilla base, a major guerrilla base of Swapu in the very dense savannah terrain of southeastern Angola and then talk in the attack force. So then, then, that was a combination of the two.

What made it particularly difficult was that we went in with the attack force, which consisted of three commanders of five Reiki, plus a small element from a unit that used to be, you know, a reaction force unit in Wambu, plus elements of our parachute regiment. So it was like a combination of units. What made it difficult was we were traveling with the force. Then the force established a temporary base at a forward Unita base,

you know, a guerrilla base of Unita, about 60 kilometers, roughly 60 kilometers from the target, from the enemy guerrilla base. It was just guerrilla base. swallow it. And of course, they were waiting there for us to execute the mission, come back, brief them, and lead them in. Now, we always used to say with reconnaissance, you know, don't restrict me in terms of time. I need time because I can't leave tracks. I can only move at night, you know, everything that goes with that. So we were doing, Dacosta and I were doing this mission the reconnaissance against time.

That was a catch. And that was a tough one because we ran out of time in the end. But if I can just briefly tell you what happened then from the forward Unita base, we were taken even further forward. We took the chance of moving forward with a small convoy of three vehicles and, you know, a fairly strong force. of guys taking us forward and dropping us. They took us about 10, maybe 20 kilometers closer to the target.

So we had less to walk. And then we started walking. Initially, we took the chance of walking in daylight. But as you get closer to the target, you know, it gets riskier. So we approached by night. And this is where, you know, by this time we were more experienced. in small team work. And this is where our sort of techniques came into play.

You know, initially, as we approached the target, we just listened out, caught initially explosions, later on shooting, later on vehicles, and just recorded it in on the map. And as we closed in, the picture grew, and we approached the target at an angle, or the target area. where we thought the base would be.

Instead of going straight, we went at an angle so that we would come from the north, since they expected, mostly expected action from the South Africans from the South. We went around, and then on this line of approach, attempted to pass the target area, all the time plotting in just on noise,

just on sound. Later on we started to, picking up tracks, then vehicle tracks, you know, hunting parties, wood gathering parties, whatever they were, and just build a picture. So in the end, you had a fairly good idea of where the base was, but, you know, without having seen anything. So finally, La Costa and I, on the last day, they were pushing us now, we need results, we need you back here. Because what you should remember now at the back, they are in a guerrilla base and, you know, it's never secure.

Right. The Bush telegraph runs, you know, by this time the enemy probably knew that there were South Africans in the area. So we were pressed by our unit commander. He was the mission commander, Colonel Hills. And it was just, you know, trying to get it. through before the day that they wanted the attack to be launched. I was tough because on the very last night, we still didn't have a visual.

So, Akostra and I then swung in towards the base, which was the intention from the beginning, but we were hoping that we would have passed the base and come in from the northwestern side. And as it turned out, we haven't passed the base yet. So that morning, when it got light, we still didn't have a visual. We knew we were there. We could hear the noises, but it was just having there the visual yet. And then he was in front, the Koste, and he showed to me there are signs there. He can hear the noises, so the enemy is there, and we must get down and crawl in.

So we started crawling. Now, this is open area. It's floodplain from the river that runs. So we knew, okay, this is the river. So the base must be on the opposite side. But we still didn't have the actual visual. And now you're crawling, you know. We're crawling.

And, you know, with crawling, you always leave tracks. Whatever you try, you know, you leave tracks. So it was a bit of touch and go. But finally, as we were crawling, right, onto the river's edge in the floodplain he showed to me okay enemy so we saw a patrol of enemy getting out of the base on the opposite side and then i realized it's right there i saw the boom like the boom gate of the of the base heard vehicle door slamming people shouting and actually saw the enemy or the patrol coming out so at the time you know we realized they were doing a security patrol early morning

and they would probably do the same on this side of the river's edge, so we had to withdraw. But then we had a visual, you know, we had a confirmation, which was just what we needed. So we went back, we just sped walk back, and hooked up with the attack force, gave a briefing that afternoon, and took the force in the next morning. I took the two main cutoff groups. I took them in around the base. The cost I brought in the main force a bit later. He established the mortar base position.

And by the time we were in possession with two cutoff groups, one north, one to the west, the attack was launched and it was successful. Although not with the initial attack. attack because by that time when they heard when we started you know when the attack was launched majority of them fled two vehicles came out to the west where I was with with the one cutoff group so we we ambushed two vehicles and I think the majority of the base ran north you know they got out and unfortunately missed our northern cutoff group

missed them. But in the two days after that, two, three days, we just kept on advancing to the enemy and that was where the big successes came in. We just kept on attacking, where they re-established themselves, kept on advancing and attacking. So in the end it was a success. We lost one guy, two guys did. One in the initial attack, they opened up with 14-5 in the ground roll at that very boom gate where

we crawl. And then another guy in an ambush later on. Corporal Mashawavi was the first one and then Corporal Andre Renkin, unfortunately he was a citizen force guy here. But yes, all in all, the operation was a major success. Now, how does that work for you, guys? guys, because if you're, like, you know, you're behind enemy lines, you know, with, with guerrillas or staging out of guerrilla base, you hit a base of basically the national force, right? The national force. And they're falling back, how do you know that they're not calling a much larger force in to cut you guys off or to ambush you or anything else like that? Yeah, there's another. That's, again, very, very pertinent point.

Let me just point out that these were Swapugurillas. Okay. But as I said before now, we knew that they were supported by the MPLA. So that was the risk now, the MPLA reacting, because this was within 60 kilometers of Menong, of one of the major air force bases of the enemy. Plus, it was within, I would say, 40 kilometers maybe, it's been 40 and 60 of a major MPLA base called Jamba. So that was the challenge, you know, to get away before the Cuban and Russian or not Russian, MPLA forces with the Russian advisors could advance.

And that was very, very finely worked out by our intelligence people, the time that it would take them to react and how they would react, you know, the routes they would take in. So they did react in the end. They did come down, but we managed to evade them by simply going into the bush because they were fairly bound to the roads. We just went into the bush. Actually ambushed one of their convoys. But, yeah, we managed to evade them in the long run. And we didn't have a major punch up with them.

All the contacts were with the guerrilla forces, the Unita. the slopper forces. That's incredible because, I mean, literally you are, what, 30 minutes to an hour away from larger bases that could support these guys, right? Exactly, yeah. Yeah, we were 10 minutes away from the mix reacting, you know, and the mix were all over us all the time. Yeah.

But, you know, with the mix, they wouldn't, couldn't distinguish between which forces, which on the ground. If you had good tactics, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you know, you, you, you, you, know moved under the trees I mean it's all canopy you know it's all right right so we had encounters with the mix you know guys were I think at two occasions they were exposed to make attacks but it wasn't accurate at all you know it's just who's speaking of the miggs I'd like to hear about operations abduct one and two which were you know your team's detailed

sabotage migs on the ground. This was a really unique and interesting operation. If you could tell us about that. Yes, this very base that I was now referring to Manong was our first target. Before I joined small teams, the guys did a similar operation to try and destroy the Mids on the airfield. So that wasn't successful. they wanted to basically disrupt the, you know, the meg capability there by lobbing mortars onto them, getting close enough to lob mortars onto the airfield.

But it didn't work because the challenge here was, now, think yourself into the typical African situation. There's an airfield, there's a base, there's a town. then there are crops, maize, fields, you know, whatever they would produce, but all around the town, stretching as far as 10 kilos further than that, away from town. So you had people working the fields around town, which would make it very, very difficult to approach the target. because you had to do that, you know, infiltrating through these, you know, fields, then getting close to the target, infiltrate through the town, then get to the actual target, then still face the enemy defenses, you know, get past the guards, then get to the mix.

And at the time we heard that the enemy would be sleeping under the mix, you know, they would be physically protecting them. And this was the challenge, you know, to work your way in there over a period of two, three, four days, just crawling, literally crawling under the ground. And we used to have a technique between this buddy of mine and Dee Dee's and me. We would lie like during the day, like, you know, with your head, yeah, I would lie with my head. side, you know, sort of I would cover behind you and you would cover behind me. And the first guy would get into cover, and the second one usually did is would cover me up

with, you know, vegetation, grass, dry grass, just cover me up. And then he would crawl in. I would cover him up as he lie as he would lie next to me. So he would be static for the whole day. And that's a challenge, you know, as you can imagine. and you need to pee, you need to eat, you need to drink. And we had troops running into the mouth. We had, you know, like dry foods that you would nibble on,

but you couldn't move because you had people now working the fields. And on this very operation, a guy got into a tree right above us. I couldn't see him because he was here, but he was, Ditties was looking straight into his eyes. And he was chopping away at a branch the whole day, you know, not realizing we were underneath him. So you had this kind of thing. You had shooting all around you with the militia guarding the people in the fields.

So you never knew. But I must say that we trained for this extensively. We didn't leave any tracks. We had what we used to call anti-track covers or elephant feet. They would literally pull out on over your boots. I had like a leather soft cushioning underneath. So the only printed would leave would, if you step into a sand pit, it would be like an elephant foot, literally.

Wow. But we antitracked all the way. We had those things on all the way for the last 20, 30 kilometers. So every night you would approach closer, you know, like four, five kilos, maximum and then disappear, you know, just cover it up and lie there for the whole day. And that was the very, very, the most taxing thing of my, I can't even imagine. Yeah, I can't even imagine. Yeah, and the fear, Dave, you're lying there, you're shit scared.

You know, you're shit scared. But, you know, you have to, tonight you have to get up and just move forward and, you know, get to the target. And then the big thing was, you know, getting to the target, you had to still have the energy and the willpower to execute your mission. Right. And then you get to the challenge of passing the enemy. Fortunately, you know, because it's so far behind enemy line or into enemy terrain, people wouldn't sit there waiting for you. They would make fires. They would be chatting.

So that was actually, if I can say that, the easier part of this, because you could always avoid and penetrate without anyone picking you up. On this very mission, now that we were almost there, you know, we're on the target almost, we had to cross a river line, you know, the river passing the town. So I had my one anti-track cover. At this time, we were wearing woolies. We used to call the penetration phase we put on wool covers, on the knees for crawling, on the elbows, you know, for crawling long distances on tarot.

And we had woolen, instead of those softly padded ones, we had woolen, what do you call it, moccasins, you know, pulled over the feet. And I, I've lost my moccasin in the river because the mud sucked it in. so it's still there I think today and I had to do the rest of the mission were there on my sock but yeah when we got

onto the target that night we realized something we never expected they took the mix away they flew the mix out to Lubangu and actually the last night or the last day that we were lying

there in our cover we counted the mix going okay there's another they're going we wonder where where they're going not realizing that they flew them out to the bung they never put like they don't wouldn't come back at night do you do you think they do they flew them out because they because of the potential threat to them that exactly no there was a by that time there was a leak in yeah we don't know we still yeah we didn't know but the there was a leak we picked

it up later that you know after when we reported at this. And our head office said to us, yes, this is what transpired now. They were expecting the South Africans to come in, so they flew the mix out for the night. What happened on the second

try? You guys re-cocked and made a second attempt. We did. This was the other airfield, the bungle. So I'll get to that one in a moment. Let me just one small incident I want to recall. As we were crawling with these sheepskin covers now, you know, on the target. We found a few helicopters,

but that wasn't our target, you know, so we didn't. Back to your question earlier, Dave, of if we could divert, you know, if we could re, but we didn't. We didn't want to, we didn't want to show that we have the capability, attack, you know, a few helicopters and not, you know, not do any real damage. Right. Right. but as Dittis and I were crawling now to the next helicopter the next well to the aircraft you know this aircraft that we don't want to touch now next thing we hear this we got a serious frighten what's this so we went we went low and the next thing within like six seven meters from us there's a dog running you could hear he's and he didn't pick us up he didn't

Nothing. Just pasta. So shows you, you know, can be done. You can, you can bullshit the dogs even. That's right. You must have smelled so bad at that point. They just thought you're part of the bush. Cuth, I just want to point out. I just want to point out because I know you, we know that you are on a timeline that it's, we're at the 10 minute mark from two hours and we don't want to make you late for your next thing. Yeah, that's why I want to jump into the second one where you guys actually clip the wire. and went inside the airfield.

Yes, this was operation at Dutt, too. So this was the major Air Force base, Lubungu. And Lubungo at the time was considered the best air defense, you know, in terms of air defense is the best base in Africa, Air Force, you know, the best protected. And also physically, you know, by that time they expected the South Africans to target the aircraft. So again, we had to penetrate, you know, really walking at night barefoot.

We did a lot of barefoot walking, stepping in human and dog shit, and you had a lot of that. And finally reached the area overlooking Lubongo, which is to the sort of southwest, where if you Google it, Kirsto Rai, which is a, smaller version of the statue of Christ in Rio de Janeiro. But in any event, we watched the target for a few days. Very scary because at the time they were patrolling the high ground south of Lubangu.

And eventually we were caught out by some ladies collecting wood. because what we didn't realize, you could see on the area of photos it was canopy, but they have cleaned out completely the undergrowth, so there wasn't any place to hide. Right. Nothing. You know, we couldn't hide. We could climb trees, but, you know, not with your pack. So eventually we were caught out by some ladies collecting wood and kids.

Of course, I'd chase them away, but we had to move out. and we moved out and we hid in a like a read what do you call it a marsh a mash ticket you know of reads

that was the only cover and instead of watching the base for like we intended to for a week we decided to go in that night and we got permission from the head office just go in because you know before they could raise serious alarm and we

we did we approached the base from the south we cut you know after the patrol has passed we measured you know we lay there for an hour after the patrol is passed we cut the fence da Costa we he was left on the mountain side so he could talk back to the HQ Diggis and I went in cut from the fence we had to penetrate another one and a half kilos you know a thousand five hundred meters to the aircraft We got to the mix, saw the MiG-21s lined up where they should be, because that intelligence was good. We saw the area where the Mi-23s were, but at that time we would start with the Mi-21s.

And again, we had devices, similar to the one I was talking before, really good stuff. We plant under the wing, and it would activate, well, within 30 minutes. minutes, but they would be set then to all go simultaneously the next, well, after that. So when I started, Diddies was, he stayed in a, and covered, I approached the first one, you know, and we had kit designed for that. I could take the charges, you know, like this. I could take the charges from a specially designed pack. I took my charge, approached the aircraft, and the same thing as before. The guy they were sleeping under the aircraft.

Couldn't see them, not even with the night vision. It's just too dark. And the guy challenged me. You know, top the AK. What are you doing here? Now, part of our preparation at the time was to learn Portuguese

phrases so that you could counter situations like this. And that fortunately kicked in immediately. I started speaking in my limited Portuguese, pretending to be drunk, high comrade, pretending to be just not in my place, and managed to slip away with them, without them,

just went down, it just went low immediately and crawled out, without them starting fire. Because, you know, you can imagine they wouldn't know who it is, who wouldn't want to shoot one of their own. And that was drilled into us, you know, enemy in their own basis, they don't just start shooting. Right. They need to establish who you are.

So I got back to DDD and, you know, we had to gap it. Because very soon they started with searchlights, vehicles driving up and down, on the perimeter they came around. So we just kept it and fortunately just made it out. As I opened that compass, it was like to just run. And we got to the cut part in the fence and managed to get out. And before first light, we were back on the mountain with Bacostra. So unfortunately, not successful, but some experience.

That's incredible. I mean, a daring operation to say the least, and you guys came very close to completing it. Yeah. You know, if they had a guy sleeping under each aircraft, I mean, sure, even if you had a suppressed pistol, I mean, I think you're only going to make it so far, right? But we didn't have time to talk about everything. We have to let you go, Coos. And that's fine because you wrote the book. Recky, small team missions behind enemy lines by our guest, Coos Stadler.

I really highly suggest all of you guys go out and read it. This is one of my favorite special operations memoirs. And it's about a subject matter that there's not a lot of books out there about this. So I really hope that you guys will go and check it out. We have a couple of questions that we should get through real quick. A couple of your questions. If you can answer these quickly, Coos. First off, Isaac asked,

did you or anyone you knew of finding Cubans or Russians in Angola? I didn't, and neither one of my teams did, but we saw. You know, you would see when you lie in your OPE, watching Lubungo or whichever target, you would see, oh, there's a white guy. You knew that the pilots were Cubans or Russians. But I didn't physically encounter anyone, no. Yeah. I knew that with some of the operations where we actually entered the bases,

the towns, the guys picked up, Russians, actually brought them home. They were, I mean, those were all recorded, but I was never part of that. Patrick, thank you very much. Ask, what comms with talk did you have on small unit ops? Like, what kind of comments were you guys using at that time? we had the Sinkle 30 that had a hopper capability Raycall, RICO Sinkle 30 HF. So back to TechHQ it would be HF all the way

you know no we didn't have set phones and that sort of thing yet yeah so it was all HF very reliable systems though and we had for the batteries we had solar later on we had solar panels so we could go for extended periods on a battery or two battery. And inter-team, or inter-body in the team, you know, inter-team, we had mostly at the time A-84s, which was tactical radio, I suppose American, I'm not sure. And also we had tech B-E-499s, which was a tactical beacon, but it also had ground

to it for very close interbody, you know, for emergencies. Yes. Interesting. And then, Hassan, thank you very much. She said, what did what did you think or what was the general opinion of like, EO executive outcomes and their contract, you know, against with the Angolan government against UNITA or UNITA. Yes. Look, that was that was after the war. That was after, I mean, after we have withdrawn. There was still civil war. So to be really, honest, I had mixed feelings about it because at the time, you know, the war was over and Unita should have given it up. So, yeah, I wouldn't say that I supported EO and I wouldn't say that I was against them. I think they did a job then that was needed. Right. And that So Vimbo had to, he had to give in. He had to give way eventually. So, yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting, too, because, I mean, basically, at that point in time, they were just denying the elections, regardless of what you thought the elections, they were denying them.

Right. Correct. Correct. Yeah. Kuhreik. Kuz, thank you so much for doing this tonight. It's really been a pleasure. And after reading your book years ago, I'm so glad that we've been able to have this conversation.

And I really appreciate you sharing these experiences with us. Thank you very much, Jack. I appreciate it. And, yeah, great opportunity. And Dave, thank you very much. Interesting questions. Thank you. We really appreciate it, man.

Next week, join us. Our guest on the show is going to be former CIA officer Rick Prado. So I hope you will join us next Friday, and he has a very interesting career. Looking forward to talking to him then. And I think that's all we got.

I think that's pretty much a wrap, right, Dave? Yeah, like, subscribe, and buy Kuse's book. Rekhi, you can fight it on Amazon. Check it out. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. We'll see you guys next time. Thank you guys and thank you, Kus. Bye-bye.

Thank you.