The Team House - Sarah Carlson on the CIA's Mad Max escape from Libya at war, Ep. 46

Episode Date: June 13, 2020

In this episode former CIA analyst and targeter Sarah Carlson discusses her deployment to Libya. She also served in the DIA and then with the CIA working to thwart terrorist plots against America. She arrived into a chaotic situation in Libya which steadily devolved as time went on until they had to evacuate the embassy. Support the stream on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/m/TheTeamHouseBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Being a parent can be really challenging. Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five with free support services to help them on their parenting journey. Everyone deserves someone they can turn to for help with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. Being a parent can be really challenging. It's normal to feel uncertain about whether you're doing the right things to raise healthy and happy children. That's why Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents,

and those with kids under the age of five, with free support services to help them build confidence in their parenting journey. Everyone deserves to have someone they can turn to for support with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. Hello, everyone. Welcome to episode 46 of the team house. We are live here with our guest tonight, Sarah Carlson. Sarah Carlson served in the DIA and the CIA.

She worked as an analyst. and she also worked as, excuse me, she also worked as a targeting officer. She is also the author of the new book, In the Dark of War, which I just finished reading two days ago. It is about her time spent in Libya in 2014, and it covers extensively the embassy evacuation of 2014 when they had to flee to Tunisia as the war heated up. So I think everyone knows who we are. I mean, I'm Jack Murphy. You can see a co-host here in one of these other, you know, Brady Bunch Squares. You can see Dave Park. And of course, Sarah, Sarah, thanks so much for joining us tonight. We're really happy to have you and, you know, hearing a little bit about your experiences and your book. Thank you. I'm really happy to be here. Yeah. I was wondering if you could start off telling us a little bit about your upbringing. You know, you were brought up by your mother largely, big family, brought up with strong.

religious values, strong Christian values. And I was wondering if you could tell us the story about you and your brother sitting around the table and your mother telling you the story about your uncles and how like the whole family served in World War II. And then that pattern sort of repeated itself with you and your siblings after 9-11. Yeah. Growing up, this was a story I heard all the time that my mom used to tell us. She was really proud of her uncle. So my great uncle, my grandfather, her father was in the Air Force and retired. And he did not get to go to World War II. He was just a little bit under age, but his brothers did.

And so she told us the story about how, you know, her grandmother would sit at the table and have them all there. So she had four boys and a daughter, which I thought was amazing. Because at the time, you know, I had three brothers. And, you know, thought it was the most amazing thing ever. So I thought it was pretty cool that, you know, my great aunt had four brothers. So the three of them served in World War II. And she told us about how her grandma would, like at the end of the war, she sat down and was so thankful to have them all back that she didn't think they'd all make it back alive.

And then shortly after that, one of my great uncles actually died in service. he was flying and they had to put it down. It was going down and it could be, you know, in the city or he could stay on and redirect it. It was after the war, right? It was after, yeah. So it was something that she talked about quite frequently because, you know, she was really proud of her uncle and his service and then for all of them, but also knowing that we were all probably going to serve. we come from a really strong military background. So she knew at least, at least a few of us would serve.

I don't think she expected all four of us to go. But we did. So we all ended up going within like six months of each other, right? So I joined Defense Intelligence Agency because of 9-11. I was working in emergency management during college. So I was an intern, and that happened. And I was able to help. that day with getting the urban search and rescue team ready to go. And, you know, it really left

a big impact on me that I wanted to do something more, something bigger. And so my boss at the time recommended DIA and around that same time, also right after 9-11, all three of my brothers signed up for the military. So I chose defense because they were going in defense. And so I wanted to, you know, do something similar or something that would be able to help them. So I had My older brother joined the Army as an officer. And then the two younger ones, one went Army and one enlisted in the Air Force. Did he get a lot of ribbing for that? Yeah, you would think so, except most of my family has actually served in the Air Force.

So my stepdad, who I'm quite close to you as well. So he was former Air Force, and he actually served in Vietnam. And then my grandpa was in the Air Force. And then I think of my own uncles, like two, two out of the three, served in the Air Force as well. So it's pretty heavily. He was in good company. But the irony, I suppose, was you were the first to deploy, right? Yeah.

We were really competitive. So we were really close growing up. My older brother is only 13 months older than me. And then the two younger ones are like two and three years. younger than me. So we're really quite close in age. So we grew up competing in a friendly way. You know, we were really close. And so we left home and we all left within, like I said, about six months of each other. And my mom was like devastated. Yeah, having a heart attack. Like not only we were leaving the nest, but we were going, like at that time, we knew we were

going to war in Iraq, right? It's like, you're going from the nest to the war. So I, I left in early 2003 to join DIA. And I was a counterterrorism analyst with them. And I volunteered to go to Iraq. I knew my brothers were going to be going. Didn't know when, but it was inevitable, right? And so volunteered and then six months later, so November 2003, I was on a plane on my way to Baghdad.

So, I mean, I know this isn't so much in your book, really, because the book focuses on Libya, but I mean, I think you mentioned in the book, like, your brothers are still in training. And it sounded like, I mean, for you, it was like shake and bake right out the door and like you were going right into it. Right. I had a week of weapons training and then a week of like driving with DIA. So it was, it was not extensive. But, you know, it was so early on then. And I don't think that they had really planned ahead for what to do with civilians. But they were like, yeah, I mean, six months in, you're good. Let's do this.

I, you know, I went. And it was, like I said, it's so early on that it wasn't, we didn't quite know what we were getting into, right? It was when we were first starting to realize that terrorism was going to be a huge problem. And I was doing counterterrorism at the time. So they picked me. I was a counterterrorism analyst there, helping to start with that initial effort. I was at the ISG, so the Iraq survey group, and they were the entity charged with finding the WMD. So there were other groups that were doing counterterrorism with other elements of the military,

but they wanted somebody there who could kind of help guide them through that. And so I was there with them, and then I was also there to support the DIA collection. effort. Could you tell us a little bit about what that entails being an analyst, a defense analyst in this case, because I think like John Q Public kind of has this understanding right about like Navy SEALs. Like they scuba dive, they come up on shore, they shoot some bad people, they blow something up and leave. Maybe they even have an understanding of like what a CIA case officer does, like a spy. Like they have some general idea that, you know, you go and you meet with sources in a cafe somewhere in, you know, Brussels or wherever it is. But I feel like that your job, being an analyst, that's something that's

like very much misunderstood in a lot of ways. Right. And I feel like the only analyst in the movies is Jack Ryan, right? Maybe not super reflective of reality. So, you know, at headquarters, whether it was DIA or CIA, it's writing products, right? So it's not all that glamorous, but really important. So a big area focus for me when I was at headquarters was threats against the United States. So of course that caught a lot of attention. So you just read through all the reporting that would be coming in. So people are generally aware that there are people out there collecting information all around the world. So reading the information that comes in from those officers, those reports, but then also anything in the news, talk in the book a lot.

Later, not in 2003, but in 2013, social media was really important. So it's just looking at all the different sources of information, and then putting it together, like figuring out what the key takeaway is, sort of the what and the so-wet, and in the military, it's the bluff, the bottom line up front, right? But it's the same kind of idea that you present the most important information first. So if you were in an elevator and you had to give your briefing none, that's when you gave it. So you would have to do it as quickly as possible. But then, you know, there were other briefings I was in where like one time I briefed a combatant commander.

And I want to say I was in there for like two hours, just had a lot of questions about what was going on. And so it varied sort of in style and in tone depending on who you were briefing or who you were writing for. So the primary product for DIA that we would write for would be for the J2 for the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He got a daily briefing, probably still does, I don't know. And then also the Secretary of Defense. So actually, a really cool story is not in the book. The first paper I wrote at DIA went to, it was Secretary Rumsfeld at the time. And like his office actually called me and said,

that they really liked it, and then he signed it and sent it back to me, which was pretty cool. That's pretty cool. It was cool. I was like, I think I've chosen my profession well. Are you allowed to say what that paper was on? No. As an analyst, where were you getting your, I know you said like open source and things like that, so not the information, but where were you getting your directives from like, how did you, what specifically were people tasking you, hey, we want to know about this? Were you just kind of deciding what needed to be followed?

How did that process happen? It was actually both. So we did get a lot of taskings where, you know, policymaker might see a bit of information and read a bit of news and want to know more about it. And so then we will prepare an assessment based on that question. So there was definitely a direct response to tasking. And then there was also, like I said, for me, it was, you know, threat. So there wasn't really ever time when that wasn't going to be important.

But then, you know, I think for general awareness, there's also the national priority intelligence framework. So there's like a set process where we identify, you know, strategically where we want to go as a country, the information that we need to get there, and then what the gaps are to attain that information. So it's the gaps that we're trying to fill, and it's the analysts that write about that information in those gaps.

So I'm almost like, I feel like a little bad like bringing this up right off the bat, but before moving on from DIA, because there's just something in your book that I was like kind of shocked by. It was like something you hear rumors about. But you said the National Guardsman or woman next to you and, you know, the next room over was literally a lady of the night having gentlemen callers over at all hours. Yes. Yeah, no, this is like,

I've heard other people say like, oh, I heard about stuff like that or yeah, I knew a guy who knew a guy who said that. Yeah, yeah. No, she was my roommate. So I know. So in Baghdad, again, very early on, I was at Campslayer. And there were these, like the pods, you know, the Connix boxes. And at that time, there were some designated for sleeping quarters and some for bathrooms. And then the ones for sleeping quarters, there were.

so many people that we were double or triple or quadruple. There were not a lot of women there at the time. So there were only a few of these pods designated for women. And so it was literally, I don't know, everybody knows what the connexes, but like a trailer thing, like on a train, right? Like converted chipping container, essentially. And then we just had curtains that were shooting. sheets that were between our bunk beds. So there was like a foot locker and then like the bunk bed and then the

This is before they had to choose, the compartmentalized housing units, like all that fancy stuff before that. Oh, yeah. This is like really early on. So the other, there were two other women in there and they were both with the National Guard and then me. And, you know, I was a civilian. I went in. I was 24 at the time when I was. deployed there. I actually deployed on my birthday, weirdly. So I got there and at first, you know,

I thought she was just like having a really good time. I didn't, I didn't really know that it was a business on the side. So there were a couple of moments where, you know, got a little sketchy, right? Like guys angry, trying to pound on the door, trying to get in. So that, that was not okay. And then I was really worried that, like, once became clear that this is not like a once-in-a-while fun-time thing. This was something else, you know. They get scared me. So I was, like, sleeping with my, then I had like a sig-sour. So I was literally sleeping it with me next to me because I was really worried, like somebody was going to come to the wrong curtain, right?

Yeah, yeah. So I reported it. I was going to have to testify. They did end up. I heard so that AD. So they ended up telling me that they did court martial horror, but on the way out when they redeployed, they found they did a spot check

and they found the cache, which was like two entire foot lockers full of cash and video evidence. So with the video evidence, I didn't need to. But the reason I guess it had been so complicated is that the chain of command was involved. Really? Who am I to judge? entrepreneurial young woman, but that was, that's one of those stories I probably would not have

believed if I had not heard it from the person themselves, if I had not heard it from somebody who was an unfortunate witness. It's like I knew a guy and then, no, nope, that was not really. Yeah, those were always the kind of stories I heard, like third-hand hearsay, like, come on, come on, that's not real. No, it was a thing. All right, all right, moving on from that insane story. How did you make the jump from the DIA to the CIA? So I did a lot of different things when I was with DIA, right? So I was in Baghdad for a while. And then when I got back, they were looking for people to go to,

then it was TTIC, the terrorist threat integration center, which became the National Counterterrorism Center. So I volunteered, it's a common theme, volunteer, to go. And ironically, the reason I didn't join the military is because I wanted to reserve my right to say no. And then I volunteered for everything anyway. I know. I should have.

But yeah, I went there and I was there for a couple years, and then I ended up going to Northcom. And so I think it was that collective experience of having done all these joint assignments where I really got a lot of exposure to, you know, working with the different agencies, especially at NCTC. I got to work with a whole wide range.

and then also, you know, at Northcom, it was different than being, working with the military deployed because it was a joint command, so it was U.S. and Canadian there, and, you know, just really different sort of interesting mission. So I think that helped with getting a job at CIA that I had already had these connections and a variety of experience and deployment, because, again, it was not that common at the time to have deployed to a war zone even then. So, applied to CIA, got that job. And there, I continue to serve as an analyst in the counterterrorism center. So it's still CT analyst.

I was called a targeting analyst. So even though I say counterterrorism analyst or you hear targeting officer, the official designation was targeting analyst. So it was kind of a hybrid of those things. And then I continued to look at, again, like threat, information against the US and the West specifically. So it was mostly coming from the groups that were operate.

It was entirely coming from the groups operating overseas, but the main focus was al Qaeda. So Al Qaeda central leadership. And then we were just starting at that time to see them getting more active with external plotting from like Yemen and Africa. Was it much of a culture change for you? Did they do things the same?

Did they require any more of school? or anything like that? Like what was that process like? Yeah, that was probably an interesting part is going back to analyst training after having already been doing it for a while. But, you know, CIA has a very specific style of writing and briefing that they want everybody to do. Actually, one of the coolest parts I thought about working at CIA is there was a heavy emphasis on, like, you're not briefing or representing yourself, right? You're representing the CIA. So it was a really different sort of optic from DIA where you would be put in front of like a general and expected to have, you know, the credibility. Whereas if you're in front of like a general as a, you know,

the CIA person, it just has a different kind of weight behind it. And so that was one of the cool parts about going through that training is, you know, you kind of learn the sounds bad, but you learn the analytic line. So this is what we're assessing at the moment. And then that helps you look for like deviations from that or you know information that could change that. So it was really interesting to come at it from that perspective where like I still use the Royal Wee a lot, even in my current job. We're like, well, we believe. I'm like, no, I believe now. But at the time that it actually was really good for briefing and it was intentional. So a lot of times, like if you were briefing like a member of Congress or something like that, they might,

so like how long have you been doing this or something like that? And so, especially for the newer analysts that we're just coming on, that I think really helped them feel like more confident in what they were doing and what they were saying. And did you also, because I, you did learn Arabic, did you go to, how did that process take place as a language training? So I learned Arabic to go to Libya specifically. Oh, okay. I did spend most of my career looking at terrorist groups operating in South Asia, the Middle East, and North Africa.

So throughout that region, just at different times. But I didn't actually learn Arabic until the year before I went to Libya. So once I knew I got that assignment, that was in 2012. So I actually applied, again, volunteered, before they, Benghazi attacks of 2012, and so I was in language training when they happened. So before moving on to Libya, is there anything you can tell us about, you know, when you were working external ops beforehand? Is there any, as far as, is there anything that's made like public domain that you're

allowed to talk about as far as like plots that were interrupted or thwarted or anything like that? I think, you know, sort of every, every plot that you can think of that was directed against the homeland from Al Qaeda, I was probably involved in some way, shape, or form with the assessment side. So anything that, again, so like the main product for CIA analyst is the PDB or the presidential daily briefing. There's, I think, a lot that's been written and talked about that. That's sort of the pinnacle of what CIA analysts write for. And I can tell you, you know, basically any threat against the homeland was PDB level. So there's a lot of long hours that would go into writing that.

So, you know, it would start, like, if I got into work at like 7 a.m. And I read a new report that just came in about a threat to the homeland. then I would brief that sort of at the morning meeting and say, like, you know, I think we need to write about this and then it would be decided throughout the day if it was going to go in the PDB or not. And at that point, like by then I knew what was going to go in, right? So just be writing it and be ready to put that information in the context. A lot of it, too, is, you know, preventing the context for if it seems bogus, right? Like, there are a lot of people like walk in, and write-ins that kind of thing, saying, you know,

just like random, like, I'm going to attack the United States. So you just have to put that kind of thing into context about, like, if we think it's true or not. And, you know, a lot more nuance than that. But it would take all day and then you would have to submit it to like multiple rounds of coordination. So go through many layers of review. And then it would go to, like later it became the DNI, right?

So he would have to sign off in anything that went into the PDB. So usually that sign off didn't happen until like midnight or one in the morning, right? It would take a really long time to do that. And then we'd have to be in the next morning to brief it to the PDB briefers very early in the morning, like around 5 a.m. So, you know, it's not hours between one and five. So drive home, get a couple hours sleep, and then drive back in. And then you brief it and then, you know, people go out and they brief their policymaker. And then once that's done, then the questions start coming in, right?

So if anybody didn't really understand or need a clarification. And then, like, sometimes those would take all day again. And then sometimes, like, the answer would be so interesting that they would want to pull it again into the PDB. and there's a really, really long hours. And then there were other times where there was like a threat stream. So like things just kept coming in. Things we were really worried about. And so then it would kind of turn into like a string of daily updates.

Was that like pretty cool though? I mean, on a personal level, like as, you know, someone, you're in your 20s and you're writing reports that are being read and briefed to the president. Yeah, it's awesome. It's super cool. Yeah. It's exhausting, but yeah, at that time in my life, you know, that was like the coolest thing I could be doing. During that time, were there a lot of threats, were there a lot of credible threats, were there a lot of close calls?

Like, I think that, you know, here when we're living in America, like we don't maybe understand or get a sense of what we're facing. Are we facing anything? What's out there for us? Yeah, I think, you know, it was quite busy. I was pretty busy the whole time I was doing that without going into a lot of detail. But yeah, I think, like, you'd hear things in the news, and if an attack didn't happen, then people start to discount it a little bit more. But, you know, there were also a lot of efforts going into making sure that the attack did not happen.

So even though we get this reporting about a threat and then, you know, like maybe like DHS would put out a notice to like the local level. And if it never came to fruition, then I think there is a tendency to start discounting that more and more. So there was always a balance between like how much how much do you say, like how specific and credible is it? Because if you keep warning, then it's the chicken little thing, right? Like people stop believing. But yeah, it was busy. Let's start talking about Libya. Like when did Libya first pop up on your radar?

When was that a potential deployment for you where they were talking about shooting you over there? And how did that all come about? I was, so they found documents in the Osama bin Laden raid, right? I think people know there was a lot of document exploitation. So some of that we found they talked about using al-Qaeda talked about using Libya as a base, launch attacks against Europe. And that's all come out. Like you can look that up online. I think I have it as a footnote in the book, right? So you can actually read the letters exchanged on it. So when I read that, when I heard about that, like I had always very much focused my attention

on threat reporting. So even within counterterrorism, there's a lot of different things you can do, right? You can track individual people. So it be like the HVT team. For me, it was always, always like that protection side of things. Like I wanted to analyze and assess threats against people I care about, right? So when I read that, I knew I wanted to take on that assignment when it came up that that was something I felt pretty passionately about. I was super dedicated. It was like long hours, like I said.

And even getting into Libya, you know, it was like the time. I woke up in the morning until I went to bed. I was thinking about Libya. I was reading about Libya. I was writing about it. So it's sort of like all consuming. But first you had to go and learn Arabic for that deployment. Which again, like me being like obsessively dedicated, right? So I would literally be studying Arabic like at the bar. I had flashcards. So there'd be like the Arabic on one's eye and the English on the other and I'd be like sitting there, you know, trying to memorize it if I was in line. Like any time there was a free moment. And then I went through the class of the class for Arabic.

For Arabic, it's a difficult language to learn. And I feel like people are generally aware of that. So just to put it like a framework around it, the Arabic to do one full year, the goal is to get to level two. So there's five levels in the language. So zero is like you maybe can say hello and five is native. This guy right here, zero zero. Oh, yeah. I feel like I'm slowly working my way back towards that.

You know, use it or lose it. So one full year got you to a two. So like in a romance language is like Spanish or Italian or whatnot, it's like three months. we'll get you to a level three. Being a parent can be really challenging. It's normal to feel uncertain about whether you're doing the right things to raise healthy and happy children. That's why Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents

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Visit child and family resource network.org today. To get to the level three in Arabic, you had to do the full second year, and that would get you to level three. So I did the two years, and I put a lot of my intention on reading because I figured as an analyst, it'd be more important for me to know how to read than actually talk. So even not, like, my talking was, my speaking was never as good. And part of that is, like, I traveled enough through the Middle East to know that as soon as people see me, they want to talk to them. They want to practice their English. So, you know, I could say hi to them in Arabic, but then they want to be practicing. And so I always emphasize the reading a little bit more.

And so while you were in language training, the Benghazi attacks happened. And I mean, I think everyone who watches this podcast is or checks it out is familiar with that. They've seen the movie 13 hours. They've heard from Chris Peranto, who is there, probably pretty aware of those attacks. But I feel like your story in the dark of war is kind of like the next chapter of what happened after all of that. So what were you thinking when those attacks popped off in 2012 while you were in the language course? I was worried, right? Like I knew people who were there and it was really quite sad.

It was a major attack against us. And I'd had other colleagues that have been lost and it's tragic. It's really hard to go through. that and then to know that I was going there. I think it just really made me even more dedicated and determined that I wasn't going to do everything in my power to keep that from happening again to the people that I was there with. So I think if anything, it just really amped up my determination. And so I think too a lot of people don't realize the role of an analyst in war zone. Like how could I prevent?

something like that from happening. So the way that works is, I think we had security officers and the Marines, and then through like all the embassy, U.S. mission personnel. So I would be there and I'd be reading everything that came in and doing the analyst thing. So I brief up at the country level to the ambassador, like more strategically, right? It was sort of big picture, what's going on, what's the stability of the country. like what are things on the horizon that we need to be worried about. But I also briefed the Marines and security officers on a regular basis.

So I was like constantly in the team room, letting him know like, hey, just read about, you know, like there was a shooting on this corner over here. Here's what I think is going on. You might want to be aware of it. Either go check it out or just avoid the area depending on what the information was. So I was doing that, you know, in the beginning, probably on a weekly basis. And then at the end, it was daily.

And it was also, we're looking at, like, status of forces. So we were, I know I'm kind of jumping ahead a little bit, but we were kind of being surrounded, which I'll explain later. And so it was being able to talk to all the security officers about what was going on there. And then, of course, I was also reeling everything back to CIA headquarters. So everything that I was doing in briefing, I was also documenting. to go back to headquarters. So you arrive, when you arrived in Libya, I mean, what can you tell us about the status

of the country at that time? You know, obviously the Libyan Civil War had happened. Benghazi had happened from, you know, from the American perspective. You know, you have militias running wild. I mean, I've had Libya described to me as being like an open city. Like, it's a place where any mafia can go and operate. I don't know how you feel about it. I'm interested in what your thoughts are about Libya when you arrived, when you hit

the ground there. So it there was definitely a shift from the beginning. So I got there in July 2013. So it was a few months after the Benghazi attacks. And I think people are a little more sort of sympathetic to our presence. They weren't they were angry at us. There was understanding about you know like why we were there and what we were doing. But it was so that I mean this the book and my experience is everything that happened after it. And it was always always. on our minds always. My main focus was to prevent something like that happening again. To the beginning, the sort of the local atmospheres, like completely lawless, like completely. So there was no security force. There was no military. That was under the control of the Libyan

government. So after the revolution, after the Arab Spring, there were all these militias that fought, right? So it's a bit similar to like what happened in Iraq, but this was definitely more tribal and a lot of it was affiliated with the tribes and then the different neighborhoods. So even the ones that were brought into like the security forces were brought in wholesale. So they remained loyal to their militia or their tribe and not the central government. So one of the things that I was particularly concerned with was similarities between what happened in Benghazi and then what happened in Tripoli right so I read about this in the book too I wanted to know like what they did there and what happened there and how that if something similar

happened in Tripoli did that mean you know there was going to be another attack like that so like we can for signposts or tripwires like that kind of thing one of them was that in Benghazi they used a militia for outer security right that's i think pretty well known and the problems that came from that, which were detailed in 13 hours that they didn't know, like, if that militia ended up being involved in the attack or not. And if they were helping them or it just became quite complicated because they didn't know where the loyalty that militia was. So in Tripoli, so I was assigned to the residence compound and then there was embassy facility.

So it was again two compounds. And we were on the Zintan land. So that was a tribe and also a militia. They had multiple militias. But we also contracted with them to provide our outer security. So they did the outer perimeter security. So again, we had to rely on the militia to do that. So one of the efforts while we were there was sort of creating a military or the GPS or GPF,

which was like a colossal failure. And that whole debacle you relate with the Libyan Special Forces Unit that are the military guys, U.S. military, are trying to train. It was pretty like, wow, really. Yeah, and that happened really early on. So that was August. So North Africa had this 1208 training program, and it was at Camp 27, for those who are familiar with Libya are the bases there. So they were doing that training there, and they had, you know, we had provided like weapons and equipment. and that kind of thing. And then militia came in and it was, again, it was just like militia fighting

with each other. And they, one militia attacked the other militia who had the base and then they took all the weapons and all the equipment. All this, all this like really advanced the things you don't want in the hands of the militia, right? So yeah, they took it on. They never really figured out or really even looked into who did it where they went. I remember one day we went out we were looking for like one of the tanks and we found it and so we were just kind of like driving around trying to see if we could see it or like talk to them and all these militia compounds and yeah it was just pretty wild so like there was no even like law enforcement right so driving was absolutely insane people are just like pedal all the way down as fast as they could go like on the wrong side of the road you know it was just completely lawless there weren't any kind of enforcement of anything there was government entities so you can kind of break it down if you're interested in the yeah yeah and how the country is divided east west and south all like i'm really interested in like the uh the geopolitical

and the tribal malicious situation that shook out while you were there? So the government had prime minister. So at the time, it was Ali Zadong. And then there was also a president. I just got this thing. I am really sorry. No, it's okay. I wasn't going to restart my computer.

No. There's also been a few turnovers in country leadership. as the years went on. Yeah, well, after Godfrey was killed, there was definitely this greater split into the east, the west, and then the south. So that set up an interesting dynamic too. And then there was the prime minister and then the president,

and then there was the Ministry of Interior and Ministry of Defense. and then certain militias reported to the Ministry of the Interior, including the Zindan, and then certain militias reported to the Ministry of Defense, which included the misruns, which I haven't mentioned yet, but they were one of the other key groups that ended up actually starting the Operation Dawn in the Civil War. So those two were often at odds together or against each other, and that really really, created a lot of the instability in Tripoli proper. So the misrottin militia would come over and help

with security whenever like the president or the MOD needed them. And then whenever the prime minister or the MOI wanted assistance with security, then they would call the other militias. So there was a lot of tension between them. And then the airport was very much like a center of gravity, like a control point. and the Zintan provided the security for that. So they were like customs and border patrol, basically. They just decided they were going to do that. And then they did. So it was, you know, weird that a militia would be like running an airport.

You know, there was just a lot of really weird stuff that was going on. Speaking of which, who were the other external actors who were mucking around in Libya. I mean, obviously, I think we know America was there. we had our hands in it. Were there any European or Middle Eastern powers that were also trying to play some games in there? Yeah. Yes, all of them. I don't know that there wasn't anybody not interested.

I think still there's a lot, still a lot of reporting commandant about like Russian involvement in Turkey and Egypt and the UAE. And it was a former Italian colony. So the relationship with Italy has always been sort of unique and special even when it was Qaddafi. So, yeah, there was a lot of involvement from other governments and that certainly it changed the dynamics as well. So throughout the year, the divide kept deepening, right? And so then once these other countries started getting involved, then you also had people supporting like one side or the other, which then exacerbated that divide and made it worse. They would align with the different tribes and kind of not necessarily pit them against each other,

but place their interest in a particular tribe? Yeah, or a particular movement. So I think the Operation Dignity with Kulifa Haftar. So when that started, and that didn't start until 2014, May 2014, Once that started, that really brought in a lot of the outside involvement. That was really one of the factors that affected that. So Egypt, I think, is probably the most notable that people are aware of that they really kind of threw their weight behind Hoftar and his operation there. So the U.S., our policy was kind of wait and see.

I didn't want to get involved, didn't want to support one side or the other, didn't want to pick a side. So we were very much hands off. And then the ambassador ended up meeting with a lot of these different groups, which kind of then just pissed off everyone, right? And she was just meeting with them all and posting pictures and that kind of thing. So that ended up making people, I think, equally angry. So we were just kind of like kicked back hedging our bets and say, hey, we'll put. put our money behind whoever the victor ends up being. Yeah, I mean, I think it was the elected government of Libya,

but then that was also really complicated, right? Right, right. At first it was appointed, and then like a lot of what changed went deep in that divide too was that some people thought that, you know, they needed elections sooner than later. And the government that was in place when I first got there, there wanted to extend their mandate to remain in authority. And so that would extend the mandate of like the president

and the Congress and all that. And people were very angry about that. The Libyans really wanted to have their own democratically elected government. So there were like massive protests, the largest that we had seen since like the revolution, that they didn't want to do that. And the militias started getting involved. And there were sort of like armed takeovers of Congress for, you know, a couple days at a time and then they would leave.

So between, you know, July 2013 and then when we evacuated, it just, you just saw all this like tension and there were multiple different groups operating. And it was always trying to figure out like who was operating with who, who was on who side. because in the beginning, there was a balance in that there were so many groups, right? So one group could take power and now would last like a hot second before somebody else came in and took it from them, right? But then once the group started joining together, then they became more powerful. And so if there was a, you know, like a block of these different groups that came in and tried to take power, then that was a lot more significant than just like one tribe or one militia. And so I was looking at how those alliances were forming and how strong they were getting.

In regards to Hafter specifically, he's an interesting character in that he was captured during the 1988 Toyota War and Chad. And then he pops up and he's living in Virginia for a couple decades. And then after this, after Gaddafi goes down, he's suddenly back in Lydia, extensively running things. One could speculate how all that happened. But from what you're telling me, it sounds like we didn't quite have this guy under our thumb, maybe the way we would have liked to have had him. I think he's certainly gone rogue if we ever thought that we didn't, right?

No, I would guess. That's part of the reason they didn't like the U.S. government and the strategy at the time. Like we don't want to pick a side because that would look really bad, right, if we picked Hoftar. Like that would not end well. So once he got involved, I think that was actually part of the reason why we were like, whoa, we're just going to kind of wait and see. In all these tribal battles for supremacy, did anybody ever use the tank? They did, yeah. Did it ever show up?

In fact, they did at the end. U.S.A. U.S.S. Who knows, too, if it was like our tank or somebody else's tank. But yeah, there were a lot of tanks. I know, right? In the interview that you had that you sent me, I watched a little clip of. Oh, with Andrew.

Yeah, with the technicals and how they rolled around. as like very mad max. Like, yes, yes, Libya was a very mad max. There were like all these improvised vehicles with like these huge rocket barrages just like welded it onto the frame and really like rolling around like, you know, 10 guys hanging off in military uniforms, but they were all like mismatched. So like, you know, chirp from one, pants from another and flip-flops. of course. So it was, yeah, it was really mad Max.

Now, you are, you know, the analyst, you know, you have to brief policymakers, but, and interestingly, we'll get into this also. You know, you sound like you got along pretty well with all these, you know, sweaty X special operations bros who were doing security, but you didn't have such a great relationship with the ambassador at the time. So, yeah, it was a little contentious. I tried really hard. So I joked really early on, right? Like when I was talking about like the 1208 Camp 27 takeover thing,

like right around the same time, there was this incident where this, the Miss Rotten militia came to Tripoli to help provide security. And it was around at the same time at the end of Ramadan. So it was like August. and there were reports that it was a coup attempt. And so in the weekly intelligence briefing with the ambassador, I think I'm really funny.

No, she didn't. I joked that it was a faux coup because, you know, they was like a mixed reporting about what was happening. She did not find out funny. And it was like the first time I was like, all right, this is going to be interesting. So I briefer and like from then on it was like, you know, very professional like no joking. You know, just this is what's going on.

These are the assessments. This is some of the interesting reporting. And it became a problem when like she would hear something from like a political peer, right? So maybe somebody in Congress or the president or something like that. And Libyan, not U.S. So from her Libyan colleagues. And if what she heard from them didn't match up with sort of what I was briefing her,

then that's when it kind of became contentious and trying to explain like, well, this is, maybe what they're telling you, but this is what other people are saying that they're doing or, you know, that kind of thing. So that's when it became problematic. But I took, again,

I took my responsibility. very seriously. Like I needed to make sure that she heard me, that it was important that I didn't just piss her off or like continue to make jokes, right? Like if she clearly didn't like that style, then it was really important that I find a way to get her to hear the intelligence. She didn't need to hear me. She needed to hear the intelligence. And so I had to find a way to do that. Did she get the country? Did she understand how the tribal politics worked and things like that? Yeah, I think she was pretty familiar with it. And she had come, I think, before that she was in Kuwait.

So she had a lot of experience in the Middle East. And she also spoke Arabic. So I do think she understood what was going on. But as it continued to get worse and more dangerous, I think that, you know, people react to you danger very differently. and I think it started to affect us all in different ways. Isn't it, you know, it seems that for CIA analysts, it's like a point of personal pride that your analysis is detached from emotion, that it's just sort of the ground truth, you know,

there's no politics, you don't insert your opinions into it, it just is what it is. But it sounds like it might have been difficult in this situation as Libya slid into decline that you're having to tell the ambassador, you know, ostensibly your boss in country, things that maybe she just doesn't want to hear. She definitely didn't. And a lot of them were threats against her, right? So that's also, I mean, to me.

Like her against her physical self. Yeah. I mean, to be fair to her, like a lot of what I was briefing her on every week was like, okay, so, you know, we got another report that they want to, and I couldn't brief her. Like, you know, this group is intent on killing the ambassador. I'm like, no, they want to kill you. Which is, you know, that's a hard thing to brief and to talk about. And I think hard to hear too, right?

So there was a lot of threats against her specifically and then against diplomats and then against any American in the country. And in fact, we had like several incidents throughout the year. So it wasn't like they weren't happening either that people were being. targeted and we knew they were coming. And so I think that certainly affected, like, the dynamic with her and, like, what she wanted to hear or not. Like, after a while, you don't want to hear that they want to kill you, right? Like, that, okay, I got it. You know, they don't like me. They want me dead. And then try to work around that. And of course, we have to mention, well, it would have been two ambassadors previous. Chris Stevens made the ultimate sacrifice in

Benghazi, our ambassador to Libya. So, I mean, this is not like hypothetical. This is like something that's very real. Yeah, and I will say that I know that I write about it. And there was like tension between us. And it was a bit contentious at times. But, you know, she did listen to me. And at the end, when the fighting was so bad,

I was going over to brief her every day. And she wanted me to be going over there and briefing her every day. So even if she didn't like what I was saying and that, you know, that affected me too, right? Like I'm not going to write as objectively about like, and then she got really mad at me. So I know that, you know, that that affected me too when she was bringing me over there every day. And like I was risking like literally to go anywhere. It was risking my life. There were bombs going off all around me.

And, you know, it wasn't like I was just going on my own like two security officers had to go with me. and then usually also the either my boss or the special operations forces representative, he would go with me. So there was a small group of us, but you can look at it a couple different ways, right? That, you know, I was mad that she was making go over there. It was also like a great honor that she trusted me that much and relied on my information so much that she wanted me to come over and brief her every day. So, you know, I did it.

And I know she listened. There were sometimes where she didn't. So there's, I think, one example in the book that I use is she wanted to send some people out who were panicking, right? So this was during the heavy fighting. I realize I'm not going in chronological order. And there were some State Department employees who were like, I'm out, bro. I'm out. I can't do this anymore.

Yeah. And this is already after we had like multiple drawdowns, right? So this is like at the end, the fighting was going on. There was no way to get out. We were like scrambling to try to think of what we could do. And she decided that she didn't care what it took or what the risk was. She was getting these people out. And, you know, that was really hard for me.

One of the first times I really questioned, like, well, then what am I doing here? If I'm literally risking my life to go over there to tell her this is a terrible idea. And, you know, like a lot of good words, not those words. Duly noted and disregarded. Thank you. Right. So I'm like, well, what's the point? So she decided to do it that she trusted this person who was a former Libyan Islamic fighting group member. Sounds legit. Right? Because he's handsome, so it's cool.

Yeah, I mean, that was literally one of the hardest moments is to hear her say, well, you know, I hear you. I know the threats, but I'm doing, or the risk, but I'm going to do it. anyway. Wow. And that's a tough call, I think, for her to make, too. I mean, it worked. The threats that were coming in, were they consistently from the same tribe, same group. I mean, was it, were there any groups or tribes that you guys could trust at any given time?

Or was it just random? We chose to rely on his intent, because we lived. on their land. So we tried really hard to maintain that relationship. The one we were most worried about was Ansar al-Shria. So that was the group that conducted the Benghazi attacks. So it was the same group. They were still operating there throughout the year.

That was something that I was really focused on. I needed to pay attention to where they were operating, who they were cooperating with, and if they were coming to Tripoli. So those were kind of the three main things I always had at the center of my attention because of all the groups that could attack us. It was most likely going to be them again. And then there were two incidents, really, there were two major capture operations that happened in Libya while I was there. And those both generated a lot of threats against us.

And we kind of anticipated that, but it's still destabilizing. and, you know, incredibly heightened the risk against us. Ken, before we get into the actual evacuation of the embassy and how that kind of played out, could you talk to us a little bit about these, you know, former special ops guys that you worked with? Like, they all have very colorful names in the book. You had to give them pseudonyms, of course. You know, like, who were these guys? What were they doing?

Like, what was the deal? Yeah, I changed all the names and combined some people. So I put that right at the beginning of the book. Part of that was to protect their identities. And then also I had to, like numbers are a really sensitive issue. So it was twofold. Right, right. You don't want somebody to count the number of names and figure out, well,

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We are Accrochor, an extraordinary advice. advantage in insurance, real estate services, cyber services, asset management, and more. Find out what AccroSure can do for you at AccroSure.com. Yeah, all of that, so they were our security officers, and they provided the physical security for us. So I think people are aware, like the Marines, they protect, like, the building or the information. But our security officers very specifically there to protect. us. So they would go on all the moves with us, which was any sort of high-risk operation and travel around town. And everything in Libya was considered high-risk. So they went with us on

all of it. So they were all, almost all, had some kind of special operations background. So, you know, the ranger or seal or please don't judge me. me everybody for forgetting others. So they all had extensive backgrounds in special operations of some kind. So I think it was like seven years was the minimum to even apply. And then the ones who didn't have special operations had some kind of other sort of elite security type background. So there were a number of them on the compound. And, um, on the compound. And, um, sort of rotated in and out throughout the year. And I tried really hard to sort of establish a good relationship from the beginning because I knew they were going to be keeping me safe. So

I wanted them to have the best information possible to save me. But then also, like, I became friends with a lot of them. And I'm still in touch with a lot of them to this day. several have reached out, you know, like excited about the book and stuff. So I've been pretty supportive. Yeah, they, they went with us anytime we had to leave the compound. So like even to the airport. So like I was picked up at the airport the day I arrived by two security officers. So they're, you know, like totally kidded out. But then have like a flowing shirt on over the top. So it was obvious to me that they, you know, like body armor and stuff on. And then we drove an armored vehicle.

So they were like Toyota SUVs that we would drive around the Land Cruiser. But they were high level armor. And they at the beginning, it was sort of one security officer would drive. And then around spring 2014, like, April May, we had a couple of incidents where rockets were launched at compounds very, very close to us. And so we were trying to figure out if we were actually being targeted or not. But after those two incidents is when we did the drawdowns. And then we also increased the security posture.

So from then on, it was like two security officers. And then once it got even worse, then it was like, okay, a couple of vehicles with a couple of security officers. So as it continued to devolve and become more dangerous, then that security posture increased to match it. There was a moment in the book, and I don't think you meant it this way. But when I read it, I was laughing because you said something like, yeah, when I worked at CIA headquarters, I was always surrounded by smart people. And now this is so different. Oh, no.

Oh, no. Oh, God. I know you didn't beat it like that, but I was laughing so hard when I read that. I was like, oh, she knows us too well. Oh, no. I had a lot of respect for the guys who were there. You're all well educated. I was actually one of the sort of not normal CIA officers.

I don't have my master's degree, which is pretty unusual for a CIA analyst. I don't think I have that pretension, but no, I feel really bad now. It's taken that way. No, no, no. I understood. I understood. And what of the, you know, I mean, it bears mentioning since it's such a, you know, it's prominent in your book that, you know, one of these guys, you know, ended up, you know, your boyfriend and girlfriend, you know, for a while. Yeah, we met there.

So in the book, I call him, nomad. he was a former Navy SEAL and we ended up dating for several years even after we left so he played a pretty significant role in the team when he was there and then also you know really helped me once we left and I was sort of going through all the the aftermath of what happened right right and I mean as this I'd like to hear you described you know the situation is like the walls figuratively came closing in around you guys and you had to make this kind of dramatic exit from the country. But it really was, I mean, I guess you could, it's a cliche, but it was sort of like, you know, your Jack Ryan moment, like, here is Sarah Carlson

CIA analyst, but now she's got an M4 rifle in her hands and like you're the TC in the vehicle and it's like, you know, now you're like ride or die, like this is, this is for real and, you know, you went through all of it and you did it with these guys. Yeah, it was, again, one of those situations where it was very intimidating and scary, but also really complimentary that they wanted me to serve in that position with them. Still, like, I look back and I'm like, oh, my God. So what happened with this? So the Civil War started on July 13th, right? We had done drawdown, a couple drawdowns, and then I was designated emergency essential because I think I had been there sort of the longest other than the ambassador.

And again, like we had formed a relationship. And then, you know, as the analyst and providing these daily briefings, people came to really rely on them. So I was designated essential and ended up staying. And it kept getting worse and worse and worse. And I think I catalog it in the book. And so the day came July 12th where this guy associated with Operation Dawn, which was the Miss Rodden militia, called and said, hey, so, and I'm paraphrasing, I have said it.

So we're going to go ahead and start the Civil War tomorrow at 530.30. Cool. we're going to target the airport and we just wanted you to know that we're not actually firing at you we're just firing like right beyond you um so of course that was very concerning but there have been a lot of threats that wasn't like weirdly specific so we took it a little more seriously so my boss called in all hands and um we you know got together in the office and he i briefed on what was going on and like the different threats that we were looking at and the credibility, which, you know, 50-50. Like it's weirdly specific, but we've just been like inundated with threats. So who knows?

But because it did sound weirdly specific, we, you know, got the order from the boss to be ready to go. So that night, you know, packed up, like, made sure everything was just so in my go bag and, you know, slept with my Glock right next to me. running shoes into the bed. They ended up like 4 a.m., so, you know, didn't sleep well. Like there was stuff going on throughout the year with like small arms fire, heavy arms fire. The rockets were definitely a different kind of a thing. And that morning they did start the Civil War and they started with an attack on the airport. And it was these rockets, so they were the grad rockets, the, um,

sort of larger size and they were firing like multiple barrages, multiple rockets in every barrage. So they ended up like not, the Marines were trying to keep count of the number of rockets coming in. And it was like hundreds a day. It was just insane. And so that morning, you know, when it started, we got the Code Red alarm, went down to the bunker, grabbed my stuff. And it didn't stop, you know, up until that. then it had, like they'd done a couple of things and then it stopped and you could sort of take a

breath and go about your day, shake it off a little bit. But this day, you know, it didn't stop. So we realized we were going to have to go in. So the security officers sort of, you know, talk to me, got me ready. Like, hey, you know, we have to do this. We have to go walk outside to get to the office. And so for me, you know, like, that's literally the first time in my life. walked out into, you know, a bombing campaign. So we went out sort of the back door. So the, you know, Mike 3, which was the 50-Cal was pointed like straight at the front gates.

We kind of had to go around in case somebody was trying to breach the front gate. And to the way we went out, I could see the airport. And like you could see and hear the impacts on the planes and the planes were exploding. and then like billowing fire. And it just, you know, like it just kept coming and kept coming. So made it into the office and, you know, that like that started, that moment started it, like the beginning of the end. So it was like that for two weeks, two weeks straight. We were there and it was just pretty constant every day.

As the fighting progressed, it did start to move closer. So the Operation Dawn with the Miss Rat Militia, they were targeting the Zindan. And again, like I said, that's the land we were on. So as they were winning, as they were making progress in their fight, it was sort of like tightening the noose. So I was very much looking at, like, which compounds they were taking over, which ones they were targeting, how close they were getting to our compounds, the embassy in us. So, and they did get closer and closer as the two weeks went on. And I was say like one of the other like crazy moments was like after the ambassador had decided to send home that group of people. Again, I was going over there every day to brief for like while this bombing was going on.

And it was that that day was the first day that we really started to talk about like a full scale evacuation. earnest because that's the day we started getting hit with indirect. So like the embassy facility actually started getting hit quite heavily with some of this anti-aircraft weaponry. So it was the Marines were out there and they were calling out everyone. So I think it's a little bit different too than other war zones in that we didn't have like we didn't have reinforcements, right? There was there was nobody to call for help. There was that that's very much like in line with not really learning the lessons from Benghazi. Right? That's exactly the same.

They were too far, right? It was still like there was the Marines in Spain and Rota and Cigonella, right? But it was still like, that's three hours away. So while this was going on, we're there. It very much felt like we didn't have any recourse that we were totally on our own. There was not a Libyan military or law enforcement force that could come. come in and help us. We were relying until then on the militia. The militia was busy fighting for their lives, for their land. But on this day, when we started getting hit, I actually had a call the militia commander. So kind of like this whole like crazy Jack Ryan moment. Nobody else in the room that we were in because we had to hunker down and like we were all wearing our

body armor and had all our weapons with us and like all grouped together in this little room. I was the only one in there that could speak Arabic. And so they called the militia commander and handed me the phone. And so, like, thank God. Like, I had studied the vocabulary so hard, right? Like, to have the recall in that moment to say, stop bombing the U.S. embassy, like, still, like, I can't believe that I was in that situation. And then I knew the words in that moment, right?

to call him and he understood. They responded. He's like, dude, we're in the middle of a fight. And I'm like, yeah, you're hitting the embassy. So they came and they helped and they got, you know, that fighting to stop at least for a couple hours. And so we're able to do some clean up. But that was certainly a turning point for like if people were scared before then,

like that was terrifying. And I think it really kind of hit home that. that the Marines, their best option to duck behind sandbags. There was no recourse we couldn't fire back. They weren't necessarily firing at us, even though we were getting hit, right? So there really wasn't anything we can do to defend ourselves. And so it was at that point, I think, that we really realized that we needed to change what we were doing. Which militia commander did you call when you called them?

Did the tenants or the attacking? The tenants. The tenants. Desper cry for help. Yeah. And it was this about the time that, you know, you guys also initiate, I don't know what the terminology is. We would call it a destruction plan. You know, obviously the CIA has their secrets.

They have their classified hard drives and whatever else I don't even know about. You guys had to torch all of that before you left, of course. Yeah. And that was exactly like in the movies. Like exactly. So it was just crazy. We finally got the order. It came a couple days later, actually, that we were going to evacuate.

So again, called another all hands and talked about like this is what we're going to be doing. We had about a day and a half to destroy everything before we had to drive out. But by then, like there had also been like a suicide attack against a nearby facility. by somebody that would, you know, good guys don't do suicide bombings, right? That's terrorism. So we knew that there were terrorists there in the city, and they found a couple of car bombs, VVIDs that were, like, just within a couple miles of our facility.

So we're just like, you know, had this threat of an actual ambush. So like with Benghazi always on your mind, and then you're in the middle of this like militia fighting. And then, oh, no, terrorists are here. they're here in Tripoli. So we're really worried about being attacked, like them using it as a cover for an attack against us, the militia fighting. So we started with the most sensitive information, so the priority things to destroy and kind of worked back from there. So the first thing was the hard drive. So we, you know, we went through, yanking all the hard drives out of the laptops and like driving

nails through them and then like hammering them with sludge hammers and then putting them on the fire so we had this um huge pit that we were getting ready um to turn into a bunker and um so we just started it in there was like behind our compound and and he was like incendiary grenades to get it started because there was nothing flammable in that fire and um and started piling on all the electronic equipment, all that stuff. And then we had to shred any papers, anything paper. And that was like the same, right? Like it's this like droning sound as you're like putting in the paper

and everybody took turns doing it because you're just standing there like trying to get it to go faster. And there's like so much pulp from the paper in the air that it's mixing in your lungs. And meanwhile, like the air is already like super nasty because it's like two weeks in of this heavy fighting. So it was just like the stench of gunpowder in the air. Like the sky actually got black from all the, it was just like the sheer volume of weapons being fired.

And then, you know, like hitting the plane. So like jet fuel. And then they ended up hitting like an oil storage, one of the big round oil storage things. So like the air was just nasty, nasty, nasty. That's incredible. And then you prepare to, I mean, it's the ambassador that has to make the call, right? Like, okay, now is, you know, H hour, we're going to roll out.

And the ambassador leaves with her entourage to come and meet with you guys at your compound. And like, I want to leave some stuff for people to go and read in the book about, you know, the rest of it. But can you talk about how that kind of like how it kicked off, how you guys came together and rolled out the door and started making your way. you know, it was determined you guys were going to go overland to Tunisia. Yep, she ended up choosing the route, the specific route that we took. So we looked at a lot of different options and I won't go into all of them. But the one we chose was to actually go south through Libya, down through like the Jebel Napusa, so the mountains and then up to southern Tunisia and then up to Tunis.

So I think a lot of people assume that we took the coastal road and just took a couple hours. This took 26 hours from start to finish. So it was quite long. I think everything just ended up taking longer than we thought it would. I think anybody who's been involved in like disaster response can attest to how that tends to happen. So yeah, the morning that we left, that like the best thing we had going for us is that nobody knew we're leaving.

So as long as we could keep the evacuation, quiet that nobody talked about it, then that would help a great deal with our security because we could just sort of sneak out. Whereas if people knew about it or they got some kind of warning, then they would have time to set up an ambush. And like I said, we were worried that's exactly what Anselaeru was going to do. And we knew that there were people associated with that who were involved in the current fighting. So the embassy, some of the staff left early to go to the rendezvous at the compound. And so it was like an hour and a half, but it was enough that I was truly terrified that people were going to find out. And people were watching. So it wasn't

like nobody noticed. There was already fighting. Everybody was already up and fighting by then. So it wasn't like they just went under the cover of darkness and came not at all. They went down the main road. People saw them. The militias were already staged all along the sides of the road getting ready for like their next face-to-face battle and then there were already people out like you know the rockets shooting at each other and so it did not go and noticed and so that that made me really concern for possible ambush along the way and it did leak like almost immediately right like oh they're evacuating the embassy like they're on they're on twitter or they're on Facebook or whatever. Yeah, so one of the main things I did there for like just getting like

sort of atmospherics and like the tactical information was looking at social media pages. And that's where the Arabic really helps me because everything posted first in Arabic. So I would I would check it like pretty constantly. And yeah, it was almost immediate that it hit social media that the US mission was evacuating. So the embassy entourage shows up and then it's on a, well, I think. think one of the gentlemen you mentioned in the book you named Harbor is one of the big ones organizing things and then nomad your boyfriend they're trying to like sort all this thing out get these vehicles in the order of movement like it sounds like the parlance of uh you know

Dave and I would use a cluster fuck is typically what we would call that indeed it was I think I call it like a really bad game of Tetris yeah the um the way that the evacuation was set up is that we had sections, which we called chalks, right? We couldn't take the whole convoy out in one go that we wanted to do in sections so that if one were ambushed, then the other sections could go a different route or could like try to help or turn around or, you know, whatever the option might be. So we were going out in these sections and it was in a very specific order. So the lead vehicle and the follow vehicle of every section was driven by security officers. And then there were different vehicles in the middle associated with the U.S.

mission. So they had to be in a particular order. And we were all assigned, like we knew exactly which vehicle, what the vehicle was, the license plate number. Like it was very, very detailed too. And as you can imagine, like we had to report all that information out to like Africom so that if we were attacked, they would know exactly who was in which vehicle. So it's actually really important that it be in the correct order for that purpose as well. So yeah, there wasn't a lot of rooms trying to finagle the vehicles into the right order and like one got hit like within minutes of being there. So it was just a ridiculous catastrophe of like that morning to have that happen and everybody's like already on edge. Meanwhile, there's they're still fighting going on.

It's still still rockets coming in and you can you can hear it like you know when they're close because you hear that wine and it's a very specific kind of sound. So you know when it's getting close and then you know everything's dark like blacked out except now you have all these vehicles and the headlights are off but the brake lights are still going off. So it's like these red flashes like every few minutes. It was crazy. This, so this happens sort of over a two-week period to lead up to this point. Was the administration posturing to help you? Like, they obviously they had some situational awareness.

This was in an overnight situation. Were they signaling to you that you guys could count on reinforcements or something? Air cover, drum cover or something? No, I mean, there was. I think there was talk about it, right? But there was so much anti-aircraft artillery being fired that it just wasn't a viable option to fly into Tripoli airspace. So any, like even with the evacuation or sending somebody into help, a lot of it was ruled out because of that because we couldn't land safely. So I think we looked at some options where we could just like drive a bit south and then get picked up there from some kind of air transport.

I don't know what the administration was thinking or planning. I can tell you from my perspective in being there, it felt like we were just left there to die. I didn't see anything about plans to come in and get us. I didn't see anything about like if we were going to pick aside or they were going to try to shore up. So then it was like dignity versus Don, like we were going to try to support one or the other.

And there really wasn't much of that that I heard or saw. And I was still reading everything. So I feel like if that discussion was happening, it was happening behind closed doors that I wasn't privy to. So on that, I don't know. I can only tell you what it felt like to me. I mean, it's just interesting because if I remember right, there's a song and it has something about shores of AAA,

which implies that there's also water, born, you know, exits available. I don't know, but I think that there was more than one exit route available to you guys. That was America's first war on terror. I'm sure you know, Dave. I feel like it's very near and dear to every Marine's heart. I think we got like the challenge points from the Marines who were at our compound. And it definitely said to the shores of Tripoli.

Yeah, so to get to the shores of Tripoli. we would have to go through the heaviest fighting. Which is why we couldn't do that. So we were south of the city proper. And is it kind of near the airport? And so to get to the shore, you'd have to drive all the way through downtown, which is where the bulk of the fighting was happening.

All right. I understand. Like the small arms. The rockets were being fired at us. Most of the small arms were happening on the streets. There are a couple other questions I'd like to ask Sarah, I think maybe we should leave this epic like 26 hour journey across the badlands of Libya. Like leave that for your book. Like people go pre-order in the dark of war.

What they can go pre-order it now. What's the release date, Sarah? June 23rd. June 23rd. So it'll be out. And I'm remiss, but I will put a link down in the description for the book also. But something I kind of like jumped right over. I forgot to mention to you is actually in the thumbnail even image for this video,

there's this picture of you shooting this like super cool looking bow in the, you know, behind the compound you were staying at in Libya. I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit like, what's the, what's the backstory behind that picture? Yeah, so that's my bow. I think somebody guessed it was a Samick Sage and indeed it is. Sadly, that one I had to burn, but I have since gotten another one. So my stepdad actually taught me how to shoot archery.

He married my mom when I was in like freshman in college. And so he did a lot of archery. And he was like, hey, if anybody wants to learn, and we were all like, yeah, who doesn't want to learn that? So he started teaching us and then, you know, got my own bow. And anybody who's been in a war zone knows there's really not a lot to do. And I think our major source of fun was actually working out. So, okay, I had a few things in the book about, like, working out with the guys because they invited me.

So I was like, sure, why not? Why not? And it was really fun. Like, we had a great time. And so I asked my boss if I could bring back my bow from R&R. And he was like, excuse me? What? Yeah, he said, yeah.

And so I actually worked with the head of the security element to get some like hay bales and targets to put up there. And so just set it up in the back of the compound. And that was actually how Nomad and I ended up getting together. So I'm left handed. And there wasn't anybody else there who was left handed except for him. And so he came out like one day we were joking about like. you know, only left-handed people can go out and shoot. And then we decided, like, well, one time when we both are free, then, you know, we'll go practice and made a bet for, you know,

coffee. So I think I joked on Twitter, right? Like, when you posted that picture, yeah, never bet a Navy sale unless you're willing to lose. I just figure, like, of course I'm going to win. I've been doing this for like half my life. No, I lost. But it was a coffee. date and that's sort of how we started dating. So you're saying that you were not hunting Ansar al-Sharia for sport with that bow. That's what you're telling me. No, although I think every security officer there wanted to be the first one to get like a bow kill. This is just for fun. That's I can totally see that. We have some questions that I want to get to you real quick. Andrew, thank you very much for the donation. He said traffic and

Libya sounds like driving in Indiana. And then he adds later on, Hoosers, is it Hoosiers? Hoosiers? Are lawless people. So, David, thanks for the donation. He asked any observations of China and Libya, you know, when you said all these different groups were operating there? We didn't really have that much encounter with China there.

And I know that they're pretty heavily involved in like sub-Saharan Africa. but mostly in North Africa, what we were looking at was like Egypt, the UAE, Sudan, the Russians, they were there, still there. Yeah, so different groups. It was just a little bit different. Were these other embassies or these other groups, were they in as much danger as you were? Do you know? I mean, or had they struck deals? Were they actually targeted? They were, yeah. There was a spate of kidnappings, specifically against foreign diplomat.

So the Egyptian embassy actually was targeted, I think, the most out of all of them. They ended up arresting in Egypt. They arrested a commander associated with one of the militias that was leading the kidnapping campaign. It was a specific group that was doing that. And so they actually went to the Egyptian embassy and took five or six of them hostage and were like rampaging through the city trying to find their ambassador. I think the most notable kidnapping was the Jordanian ambassador to Libya. And he was held for quite some time and then exchanged for al-Qaeda terrorists that Jordan had in custody who was released into Libya. Brendan, thank you very much.

Brennan asked, oh, he said where he says, greetings from Australia. Thanks for the Mad Max reference. And which militia did Immortal Joe run? Did what? Which militia did Immortan Joe or Immortal Joe? Is that a Mad Max character? Is it a Mad Max character?

Is Immortal Joe a Mad Max character? Master Blaster was running the militia. Last Thunderdome. Let's see. T-Barr, thank you very much. Timar says, can Sarah talk about the emergence of ISIS and Libya and how they came about I remember being shocked how powerful they got to be,

especially in search. Good question. Yeah. So I think it kind of starts a few years back with people going, so Libyans and North Africans going through Libya to go to Iraq and Syria. So the North African sort of group of foreign fighters that were in Iraq and then later in Syria,

was the, I think it was the highest number. And a lot of them went through Libya to get there. And then particularly after the revolution, the main airport that we saw them going through was Matiga. So they were kind of funneling through. And a lot of them at first were training in Darnah and then Benghazi. And then it did later extend to cert. But yeah, like we were literally there watching it happen and we knew it was happening.

And I kind of talk about that in my book again in the dark of war. They kind of saw it as it transitioned and they were getting, that was again another element that we saw getting closer to us. And that was like the one, like the worst one to get close to us. So it wasn't until after I left that they announced the president of ISIS in Libya. but there was a pretty strong affiliation between the people and particularly the people that had been fighting in Iraq and Syria and then came back to Libya. You know, the slave trade really opened back up after Arab Spring. I mean, was that, did that affect foreign nationals at all? Was that more of a local thing?

Because it was very heavy in Tripoli, right? Yeah. So kidnapping was really common. And I mentioned the kidnapping against foreign diplomats because that was like a pretty targeted and specific thing. But kidnapping Libyan on Libyan was really common. That was happening quite a bit. And I think with the slave trade, that was sort of one of the most disheartening things to see kind of take off after we left. And kind of one of the things I really struggled with, like we left and it kind of created this power vacuum that that that,

could happen. And yeah, they were doing like open slave market. So a lot of, a lot of people from sub-Saharan Africa would go north to try to get to Europe. That was one of the main routes they were taking. And because Libya was so lawless, that was sort of an obvious jumping off point that you could just pay somebody to get through. So, yeah, that, no, it became a really big problem. It was starting while I was still there, like people trying to come through to try to get to Europe, but the slave trade didn't really start until after that when they were getting stopped and put into these, like prisons basically, and then sold at open markets. It was really tragic. Alex, thank you very much. What do you think Libya will look like in 25 years?

I hope they're not still at war. I really don't know. I really don't. I have actively tried to stop reading about Libya because, you know, after a while, it's too much. And you see all this stuff that's still happening that was happening, you know, five years ago. But then, you know, the other wars, like you think about Afghanistan and Iraq and, you know, we're still there. It's still going on. I hope that it's not. I hope that it stabilizes. But I don't know. I wanted to ask you, too, Sarah, if you could talk a little bit about, you know, I'm using the term, you know, analyst burnout, that there's this stress that comes with the job, both emotionally, mentally, physically, you know, maybe spiritually, even, you know, like most people, I think are familiar now with, like, post-traumatic stress that, like, if you're a soldier in combat, that that takes a toll on the human being.

And there's a need to decompress. there's a need to recover from that. But I feel like the American public is really not familiar with the specific type of stress and maybe even trauma that an analyst goes through when you're engrossed in this 24-7 like you were describing, like all day, every day. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what that is, or even if I'm using the right term for it. Yeah, so I did 12 and a half years total, and it was all counterterrorism. And so this book, very specifically, is about a year.

It's about what happened in Libya. But, you know, before all that, I kind of talked about it a little bit with you tonight. But, you know, it's long hours. You have to watch a lot of stuff. Like, I can never unsee, right? And I think that in itself sort of damaging to the soul, you know, like some of the beheading videos, having to watch those, like all the document exploitation and stuff you would find on computers, like you could try to stop it, but you know, you can't unsee some of the things you've seen.

And that in itself was quite difficult. And then just like then, you know, the long hours, just the constant, there was also this sentiment, like, if you took a break, the terrorist win, right? Like, I'm sure you've heard that too, but like it was very much the sentiment at the time that, like, if you left early or like you went to your kid's birthday party or, you know, you didn't put everything you had in you into the job. Then, you know, you were letting the tears win. And it did like, it became my life, right? It was really hard to leave because it was all-consuming. You know, I never, like, had kids, right?

It just, it became your whole life. And I know I made those choices for me and other people made different choices. Other people had kids or got married or whatever. But for me, my sole focus was that it was all consuming for me. And it very much became, like, my entire life and my identity. So it was really quite hard to leave. But, you know, after Libya, that was... whatever stress that I had from before, like, like, Libby was like no joke.

A lot of post-traumatic stress just from that, from being there in the bombing. Like I can't do fireworks, right? Like, I just, I can't. But even, like, some of the other things, like, I think people maybe don't realize is, like, a sense of responsibility to stop an attack or to, not miss something. So I very much felt like if I if I miss something and we were

attacked, like that was my fault. And I realize the flaw in that logic, I do, but it felt like if I missed something, then it was my fault. If my friends in Libya that were there with me died, it would be my fault. And even going

back to some of the other things that happened. So like I think people are familiar with the coast bombing where 7th officers were killed, you know, like I knew a lot of them. So it's really hard to go through stuff like that and to not have it affect you. I don't really know how that's possible. For me, it's very personal. Like, the work was my life and these people were my friends. So it was really hard to sort of disassociate. I wasn't able to do it. I think maybe other people are, but at the

time. I wasn't able to. There were also things like, I mentioned I was working like threats against the U.S. and when I decided to take the job, in Libya, I had like one of my bosses at the time. He told me, you know, like I was betraying the team that, you know, I couldn't go. And I was like, well, I need to do something else. Like I've been doing this for a while. And he was like, well, You know, when there's an attack, like the next attack against the U.S., if it happens in the U.S., it's your fault. Damn. Right? God damn.

Yeah, and then the Boston Marathon bombing happened. And, like, that was gut-wrenching. Like, absolutely. And, you know, I can know and I can tell you and we can talk about, like, of course that wasn't my fault. Like, that was an unfair expectation. It felt gut-wrenching. Talk about a fucking guilt trip. Yeah.

Yeah. So you said that now you try to avoid like reading about Lydia. I mean, do you try to read about a lot of, do you avoid trying to read a lot about a lot of things? Like if you start reading about something, do you start trying to connect the dots? You start going into that kind of whole of, oh, what have I found? Yeah.

I joke still. Like, you can't turn it up. off, right? Like, I analyze and then I overanalyze and then I overanalyze my over-analyzing. You can't turn it off. So I still do that even now in my current job. So I didn't want to do anything related to Intel. Like, I just, I needed to be done with it. I needed to put it behind me. So I'm actually in emergency management now. And, you know, there are still like some parallels, right? Like, I was in an evacuation and a shelter in place, essentially. And so, like, the emergency response part was still really appealing to me.

And so I'm doing that now. But yeah, I still do it in my current job where I'm like, what about this angle or what about that? And how does it connect? I don't probably always have that. Was writing the book a therapeutic process for you? Yeah, absolutely. I started writing it like right away.

So one of my former chiefs told me that, well, recommended that I just write down some notes in case I was called to testify. So this is actually like, well, we were still there because we weren't sure it was going to happen on the drive out. And so, spoiler alert, I lived. But we weren't sure. So I started just like writing some general notes.

And then when I got back and I was on a home leave, started really writing it out more in like a narrative form. And then once became clear, like I wasn't going to be called to testify because we made it out safely. So that was really like what they cared about. Um, so, um, I decided, like the more I wrote about it, like the more it helped me, but the more I wanted, wanted to write about it. So I think, um, you know, a lot of this stuff happens, like, and we never, we never hear about it that there's a lot of like, you know, major operations or like, these critical intelligence moments and you don't know about it.

And I feel like we all risk so much that it was a way to make it matter, like not just for me, but for them too. And like a lot of them, I think a lot of the guys have left. I don't think any of them are still in, maybe a few. But most of the people who were there in Libya at the time, I think it was quite a different experience because, we were so far out there on the edge. And again, that whole sense of being totally on our own

that I think most of them have left. And then this was a way to kind of make it matter. Sarah, a couple real quick questions here that actually someone submitted. If someone wants to get into the Intel world but can't and isn't wanting to travel a ton, what kind of job is best suited for them? Analyst actually.

I did all my traveling because I wanted to. But it was not a forced thing. But yeah, most analysts stay at headquarters their whole career. And again, with choices, like I chose to do counter tears. Like I chose to do something that was going to keep me really busy and was like the center of focus. And like I wanted to be like in the center of things. But you don't have to, you know, like somebody sits on the. desk for like the most boring country you can think of, right? So it just depends on what you want

your career to be like. What are some of your thoughts on intelligence degrees being offered from various colleges like American military online, Indiana State University? Are those degrees worth the effort for a career in the intelligence world? Are you better off with a political science degree or something else? So again, I'm probably not the best one to ask. I had an English degree. So how I ended up where I did, like it doesn't really make sense. And if anybody were going to ask me, like I should not have ended up where I did. But yeah, I think just having a degree is the important thing for most jobs. I think a degree in intelligence is just as valuable as a degree in foreign policy. I think the degree in foreign policy is probably better if you want to

do CIA because you can learn more about sort of that interaction and how it works. But I did very well going from, so I didn't start at CIA. I started at DIA. And so it's the ultimate goal is CIA. It's also completely fine to start as an intelligence analyst somewhere else and then work your way in. Are there any good books other than in the dark of war? Are there any books you would recommend to somebody who is looking to get into the intelligence world that you, you know, this is, these are the ones you would hand them and say, hey, these are the must reads.

There's actually been a couple of other books very recently. I think you just interviewed Tracy Walder about her book, The Unexpected Spy, and then also Nita Backos about the Targeter. So, like if you're looking for something more recent about firsthand experiences, especially as a woman, then I think mine or either of theirs would be great. If you want to just like more general, like Cindy Otis, she has a book coming out about like how analysts, so she was an analyst and so it's about how analysts learn how to assess as something is true or false or books called true or false. So there's, I think, a wide variety. It just depends on what you're interested in.

Like some of the most fun for me were like, spy the lie because like I have that one. That's interesting to me. So I think it just depends on what your interests are. You can go from like firsthand account like mine is or sort of this like how we analysts do their job or David Priest wrote about like the president's daily briefing. So I think it just depends on the interest. Do you have more jack because we have a couple more in the feed?

Yeah, no go for it. Dave. Okay, Mike W. thank you very much. He says, hey, Jack and Dave, love your channel. Thank you very much. He says, thank you for sharing with us, Sarah. Thank you. Sarah, thank you very much for the donation. And Sarah gives us a fox. So good job. David, thank you very much. You had to burn a bow. How did you get it there? And he goes, oh, she answered it. So they didn't try to stop you from bringing a personally, only. weapon into a war zone? I'm not sure they knew what it was, I'll be honest. I took it apart, right? So it's a take-down recurve, so you could take the limbs off.

And then the arrows were arrows, but I have the tips on them. So I put those on when I got there. So I don't know if they just didn't care or what, but they didn't stop me. I was a little worried about it. I had permission. So we flew commercial to go in, which I don't think I said or people maybe not be aware of. So I flew like Luftanzah to from Germany to Libya. And nobody tried to stop me from bringing it in.

There you go, folks. David, thank you very much. Do you have any recommendations more on the analytical side, like something with workflow, and how to build a hypothesis and such? Just like how to be an analyst, I guess. So I don't know. I think for me it was just like reading as much as you can. So like definitely learned to speed read.

And then I think you quickly kind of realize like what's important and what's not. I think that you talk a little bit about like how you do it. like the expression, connect the dots, just drives me out of my mind, right? So you can have all this information and like every piece of information is a dot. But when you have that, you can make any picture you want. So that's not actually how it works, that you take the information and you see everything that there is there. And then you have to use like your experience and your own logic and reason. And then that kind of analytic line that I talked about and you start to see like,

patterns form or like, you know, like if this guy over here says he's going to do an attack with like this vehicle and then somebody else says something about like a different vehicle, like who, how do you figure out which it is? And you just have to add in like probability, right? So nothing you say is going to be like al-Qaeda is going to attack at noon. Like that's not, that's not something that you would write. Even if the source says like Al-Qaeda is going to attack at you would still be writing about the likelihood of that information being true, like what the target might be. So you're not just looking at one piece of information. You're looking at all of it. Did you find yourself struggling or recognizing or confirmation bias at all when you were doing

analysis? Yeah, I think mirror imaging is probably one of the biggest problems is like, well, I would do it this way, so I don't they. And that was a really common. sentiment and I still hear it even now about like any number of things and I think people forget that you know different cultures think very differently than we do and even somebody like you or I could see the same information and have a completely different view on what to do with that information because we're two different people so I think for me I saw the biggest problem with what we call mirror imaging is saying that because you would do it some way, then somebody else would do it the same way. Sure.

Andrew, thank you very much. Can we circle back to foot lockers? How much cash that's in a foot lock? I have no idea. Andrew, do you think she's like a Colombian drug cartel leader putting $20 bills through the cash counter? Like, no. What Andrew wants to know is if he could buy a giraffe with a footlocking.

That's what Andrew's trying to figure out. It's from a previous share, Sarah, where somebody had to sell off a giraffe as part of an accounting thing. Ian, thank you very much. Sarah, thank you so much for sharing your story. We can tell that it's a, we can tell this personal and I for one very much appreciate your candor on the subject. Thank you. Yeah. And yeah, also I'd echo that, Sarah. Thank you. of that, Sarah. Thank you so much for coming on and spending some of your time with us tonight and being very patient with all of my brave and all questions at times. I'm walking you through some

things that probably are pretty academic and boring. But there's a lot of people out there, including myself, who really don't understand your job and what it entails. And I really appreciate you sitting down to lay it all out for us. In the Dark of Wars, the name of the book, comes out June 23rd. people where they can go to find it. Like, is there an audio book? Is there an e-book? You know, people want to know these things. They want to know where they can find it. You get it on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Target, books a million. So anywhere you can normally get a book. It's available in hard copy and on Kindle. No word yet on an audiobook, sadly, but it is on Kindle. Okay. And if I can twist your arm just a little bit more, Sarah, could you, could I get you like for like 10 more

minutes after we finish wrap up here to do a quick bonus segment. I just got like a couple other little tangents from the book that I'd like to ask you about. Absolutely. Okay. Thank you. Jack, what is this bonus segment you speak of? Why, I'm so glad that you asked, Mr. Dave. So if you guys are interested in supporting the stream, there's a link down in the description to our Patreon site, and you can jump on there for a dollar a month. You have access to all these bonus segments. we do with our guests like Sarah Carlson, and we talk about all kinds of strange and weird things, tangents. I don't know.

There's some interesting stuff in there. Sarah, I sent you the one we did. That was a bonus segment we did with Andrew Milburn, where he was talking about working out of Malta. So I guess on the timeline of things, this would have been after you guys had evacuated the embassy or during. I think before he was in there before. Before.

Before. Before, yeah. Okay, so as the war is heating up, they're evacuating the U.S. citizens. Yeah, I think that was during the revolution. Pearl Milburn, arguably not making the smartest of all decisions, decides to break, not follow orders, and gets on a plane with the Brits into Libya to help evacuate American citizens, which was quite brave, but he almost got in a lot of trouble for that. So that's just the kind of thing that we do for bonus segments sometimes.

So if you guys can give this video a thumbs up, share it with your pals, put a comment down there, let us know how you think we're doing. All that stuff makes a big difference for us. And please subscribe to the channel if you haven't already. I just want to add, Jack. You said that for only a dollar a month, they can join our Patreon and get our bonus segments. And if you want to give more than $1, you can because Jack and I are paying the run on our studio, which we can't use right now. and all of our but anyway, thank you guys.

We really appreciate. Sarah, thank you so much. We really appreciate your time. And thank you very much for having me on. It's been amazing. Yeah, thank you. And next episode, a historic moment for us on the team house, all three Ranger battalions will be represented on the show for the first time.

Third Battalion, for me, Dave with Second Battalion, our guest was a medic in First Ranger Battalion. So they will all be here. It's going to be a perfect storm of, self-satisfaction and we're looking forward to that. So again, thanks, Sarah. Thank you, Dave. And we'll see all you guys next time. Thanks, guys. Thank you.