The Team House - SAS Operator & MI5 | Mick Hawkes | Ep. 332

Episode Date: March 15, 2025

Ex British military 24 years, 12 years  22 SAS (Including 6 years Covert operations). 2 years as a military advisor to the British Secret Intelligence Services in London (MI5 for Covert operations). Last 22 years in corporate security operating out of Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Russia, Kazakhstan, Colombia, Sudan, Libya and the last 6 years in West Africa.Find Mick here:https://www.hawkesandco.uk/-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------New merch, patches, and stickers! ⬇️https://theteamhouse-shop.fourthwall.comSupport the show here:⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse___________________________________________________Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured—————————————————————-Today's Sponsors:American Financing ⬇️https://AmericanFinancing.net/teamhouse or call 866-889-8010DisclaimerNMLS 182334, nmlsconsumeraccess.orgGhostBed⬇️https://www.ghostbed.com/houseFOR 50% OFF!!!StopBox USA⬇️Get firearm security redesigned and save with BOGO the StopBox Pro AND 10% off @StopBoxUSA with code HOUSE at https://www.stopboxusa.com/HOUSE  #stopboxpod Mando ⬇️https://shopmando.comPromo code "TEAMHOUSE" for 40% off your starter pack.____________________________________Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/——————————————————————To help support the show and for all bonus content including:https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse-AD FREE AUDIO-AD FREE VIDEO-Access to ALL bonus segments with our guestsSubscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseOr make a one time donation at: ⬇️https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouseSocial Media: ⬇️The Team House Instagram:https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_linkThe Team House Twitter:https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePodJack’s Instagram:https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_linkJack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21Team House Discord: ⬇️https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6SubReddit: ⬇️https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample"Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio"Want to sponsor the show?Email: ⬇️[e-mail] a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

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That's S-H-O-P-M-A-N-D-O.com. com please support our show and tell them we sent you smell fresher stay drier and boost your confidence from head to toe with mando special operations espionage the team house with your hopes jack murphy and david park hey everyone this is episode 332 of the team house i'm jack murphy and our guest on tonight's show is a very interesting person michael hall but you go by Mick, right? Yeah, Nick, yeah, absolutely. So Mick spent a long career in the British military, including in the Special Air Service, deploying to Northern Ireland, the Falklands,

all kinds of the Balkans, and then spent a second career in the gas and oil security field in private security contracting. He is also the author of the book, Life on the Edge, which is coming out probably next month, you know, in the near future. So many of you who are listening to this podcast, it's probably already available. If you're watching it when it just comes out, you may have to wait a month or so. Mick, thank you for joining us on the show today.

My pleasure. I'm much appreciated. Thanks, but thanks for inviting us. Yeah, man. So your book is a autobiography, and we're kind of going to, you know, go through some of it on the interview today. And, you know, we'd like to ask our guests, you know, first off, you know, sort of how they grew up, what their upbringing was like, and how that kind of propelled them towards military service. Yeah, quite bizarre. So my father's in the Army.

He was, we'll call it a rare crap out. So he got out, more of Blackberry. Normal raw signals wasn't any special? we deployed all over the UK and Germany I went to about 10, 10, 12 different schools but ended up being quite good at football in fact, my action, and I had no intention of joining the military, believe you may,

because all the people that I saw were quite rotund, alcoholically rotund if that makes sense. So there was no, no inspiration really to join the military and so all I ever want to do is be a professional footballer

which was going great because I played for every school that I went to I played football for and then when we moved back to my mom and dad divorced when I was 15, we came back to the UK because we lived in Germany at the time

being back to the UK and played for a small team in Lincolnshire and they've got me a trial with a little team called Lincoln City who sort of lower echelons really they're not the man United's of the world so I went for a trial with them and they didn't pick me and I was like, hold on, what do you mean you're not picking me?

I played left back, obviously left back in the changing room in their eyes so I never got picked and so I was quite gutted so what to do at 15 and a half So I then decided, well, you know, let's have a look at the military. And literally I walked into a career's office, and there was a big burly parachuter sat behind a desk. And behind him was a massive picture of C-130 Hercules. And a lot of people jumping out, and I just looked at the picture, looked at the individual who looked apart, to be quite frank.

you know, it was sold. And he said, yeah, you know, sign on the dotted line here like, you know, and that was it. We, I joined the junior parachute regiment at 16 years of age. Fantastic. You're a boy soldier. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I tell you what's bizarre. So I'd never actually finished a cross-country run in my life because, you know,

and a football under my arm and, you know, that long distance road, you know, what's all that about? I don't need to do that. So I'd never actually finished a cross-country run when I was at school. And then I went down to Aldershot, joined the Junior Far Street Regiment. And one of the first things we did was a 10-mile run. And I bizarrely, I came second.

You know, wondering where that came from. And I found out pretty quickly I was a bit of a natural runner. You know, to the extent that I've done a half marathon in 69 minutes, if that makes sense and so really, really good runner and I really sort of set myself

set myself up really for the rest of my career but unfortunately with the junior parachute regiment so I was 16, went down there because I've been to boarding school so I got used to being away from home

whereas a lot of the other kids you know this was their first time away and it's the first time really that I'd seen, you know, older kids crying at nightlife because they were homesick, I suppose, but, you know, thankfully I never went through that. But during my time there, so I joined the cross-country team, fantastic. This will give me a bit of a flavour as the mentality of a parachute regiment. So the junior parachute regiment, our cross-country team was quite good. however we came second to the army catering tour and what happened was

you know you get new trophies at the end of it and then we drove back to rounding barracks in Oldershop thinking that we were coquhart because we came second and we had our first little trophy and as we were getting off a bus the RSN turned up Parashute Regiment Depot Barra

turned up with a big shiny bin and basically he said listen if you think coming second to the Army Thetering Corps is a positive thing you can think again every one of you throw your trophies in the bin and really that was you know the competitiveness of the parachute

regiment compared to compared to other other organisations but it set me up in good stead So I joined the gymnastic platoon because they toured all around the country doing gymnastic displays. Great. And then at 17 you then go into normal recruit training. Good peak, aren't they? Week 14, we went on a run and I snapped my ankle pretty badly

because I tried to jump off a tank burn in Oldershot, a place called Hankley Common. There was these about eight foot, nine foot high tank burns, and you know, you had to jump off and, you know, do what you perceived as being a para roll. But we weren't paratrained, you know, we were still going through training. So I just landed like a, you know, like a bag of crap on the floor, I suppose. And my ankle snapped and they sort of carried it. You know, in them days there was no medical facilities. You know, we didn't have an ambulance with her.

So, you know, it was carrying me back basically. Six miles back to camp. They manipulated my ankle into place, and then left it for three weeks, re-ex-rayed it, and then realized that it hadn't knitted properly, and it had to be pinned. So they pinned the ankle. It took me about another nine months to rehabilitation.

And then I got called in, really, to have a chat with a training major and a medical doctor. just so like you know, medical doctors are the bane of my life. And you'll understand as we go through. So this medical doctor decided that my parachuting career was over. And I think just being a bit overzealous, I suppose, because I was a young kid, eight, 70 years of age.

And they said, listen, you know, these are your options. And because of that mentality, you know, parachute regiment or nothing, I actually left the army. for about four or five months, realized that that was a big mistake, went back to the same recruiting office. They said, let's see, you've got a really good report here. You know, obviously you can't parachute.

However, have you thought about being a commando? And I thought, I thought Royal Marines. And they went, well, the Army, you've got commandos as well. So your options are Royal Artillery or Royal Engineers. So I decided to join the Royal Artillery. and then spent, so did, went down, did the commando course, basically down in Plymouth, fantastic time, and ended up going to Scotland, being posted up to Sem Battery in Arbrois, Scotland for the next seven years. So it was great.

And with the Royal Artillery, you did a tour to Northern Ireland? Yeah, so here we go. So when I did the commander course, everybody that was on that course was going to go to a battery down in Plymouth because they wanted them to do a six-month sore over in Belize. Not for me. The battery that I wanted to go was up in Scotland because they were going to Northern Ireland. So I feigned injury on my ankle. So we'd all passed, basically. We were all about to get on a bus to go down.

and Limston to do the Royal Marine Commando test or the commando calls as such, all arms commando. And I just played on my ankle, you know, my uncle, Stibb. And the instructors knew what was going on. They knew that I wanted to go, Oh, bro. And they said, let's submit, you know, fair do's, but you're going to have to do the whole thing again.

I wasn't that bothered, to be honest, because I wanted to go to that battery. So unfortunately, they did the whole thing again, which is fine. It kept you a fit, so, you know, no winging and whining about that. Ended up going to Scotland where I wanted to go in the first place.

And we did a tour to South Armour, which at the time was quite interesting. Two para were out there. They'd lost quite a few people at Warren Point, 18, 18 young soldiers got killed, Warren Point. So South Armour was quite a hotspot. So we had a place called Besbrook,

and Newton Hamilton were our two areas of operation. A lot of it was a lot of rural work going out in the countryside, looking for bits of bobs. Nothing happened. It was a very, very quiet talk. But what it did teach me later on in life was how very little good intelligence the normal British Army that given, or the Green Army, as we call it.

Because all the top intelligence when it comes filtered down goes to special forces or to the surveillance people. And then all the crappy stuff gets filtered down to the normal British Army. So really, you're just sort of walking and hoping to pick up intelligence and being lucky, you know, to find someone walking around with a gun to take on or whatever like, you know. but it was a bit hit and mess, but we had a very quiet tour, which a bit of a bummer, because you always want something to happen. You know, that's virtually joining the military, I suppose. But very quiet tour.

Came back, quite happy, you know, got my first operational tour out of the way. And then you got spun up for the Falcons also in this unit. Yeah, so I, although I was in the artillery, I've never been on the guns in my life, you know, firing the gun. That's funny. I fired the guns when I went through basic training, but I was very lucky that I ended up in the food party, the forward observation.

And that's where my trade was, really. And so when the Falklands came around, we were attached to, so it was 4-5 Commando, who we were co-located within Arbrood, Scotland anyway. So when it came to the Falklands, we were attached to 4-5 and specifically Yankee Company. So a little four-man team attached to Yankee company

If they needed any artillery support We would give it to them So we did the We did the Yonpa cross as they call it Or the tab across So basically we came ashore It was a quiet beach landing I suppose

We were expecting Expecting quite a heavy sort of hostile You know Defence by the Argentinians but there was no one there in, so it was quite... But then when, as soon as you get up to the high ground, you start digging in, that's when the aircraft start coming over,

the Argentinian aircraft. And that's right, that's when you realise that you're in a proper war, I suppose. And the very sad sight was watching a British brigate, the Antelope, actually get bombed and sank in San Carlos Water, directly in front of us and there was a very brave individual went on there to try and detonate a or to defuse a bomb

and unfortunately the bomb went off and killed him outright along with another person but the vessel broke its back and quite a sad sight I suppose you know watching a sort of

a large vessel like that sent directly in front of you so that that was you know that got you into it as well two para then made their move up to goose green and then we got the move then to start moving out along with three para to make the push really over to Mount Kent

so got to Mount Kent so I told you I've got a pin in my ankle now just before the Falklands I actually went down there to try and get the pin taken out so in the September they couldn't get the pin out out so they buried it deeper but it had left a bit of a mess on my ankle so because of the walking that you do on the Falklands and it's it's very boggy peat bog and my ankle went really

gammy um septic and everything else so when i was at mount kent i um one of the guys said listen me you know go down there go to the first aid post you know get it wrapped up and uh good to go ready for the battles because we had the all the main battles were coming up like you know and again another medical doctor decided that he was going to fly me instantly fly me off

to a place to a hospital ship called the Uganda and I just thought I just looked at him and thought oh no I've just walked all the way over and three people getting here were about to start the battles and you want me to

go you want me to go sit And so I ignored him. He told me to go and get my kit. I totally ignored that. Strapped it up. A bit of proof in, you know, paracet of all. Prate yourself on the head and, you know, get on with it. And that's what we did, personally.

And the next day, literally the day before we were moving out to towards two sisters, one of the major battles that we were going to be attacking, this doctor tried to hump me down and found me. and ordered me to pack my kit, basically. And thankfully, we had a major who was attached to us. He overrode him and said, listen, Hawksie, you know, he's happy to, you know, with his ankle, let him get on with it. So thankfully, overrode him. And then we did the attacks, and it was great because it was two sisters.

they unfortunately 4-5 lost all their mortars so they didn't have any mortars for the attack so they were very reliant really on artillery support some of the things we did artillery support the danger close was flipping dangerous because we were playing it by ear you know you know doing danger close on a training facility

is totally different to doing it in warfare so it was you know a lot of it was off the cuff you know, keep your heads down, guys, because these rounds are going to come in. How close do you guys think you walked it in? Yeah, they were about 30 meters away for the closest.

With artillery, that's really close. Yeah, but, you know, 105. And this is, you know, I take the hat off ready, so the gun team down at the other end because not one of the rounds that were fired all night was off target. They were all spot on. and it was eight, we weren't even using our own battery,

it was eight battery, one of our sister batteries. Because of the way the batteries were, and the trajectory, we couldn't use our own battery. So we used an eight battery, and I'll say what, I take the hat off,

because their gunnery scores was just spot on. Every now and then you've got a totally different round, so a illuminated round would go off with a H.E. Or, you know, or something else had gone. But the reason for that is they were getting that short of ammunition. They were just chucking anything up the gun. And it was, you know, fair one lot.

But we did have to curb the enthusiasm of the Royal Marines because they ended up starting to use the artillery like mortars, and you can't do that. We're an aerial weapon. So taking out a machine gun post is not going to happen, if that makes sense. And you have to be brutally honest to them. You know, why you're next thing, guys, take that with your section and just get stuck in with your baynets.

Because we couldn't afford to, you know, use all our ammunition up. Because our next objective was Sapper Hill. And anyone that knows the Falklands, Sapper Hill is a long, flat running to hit the last hill overlooking Stanley. And that was our next objective. And we needed ammunition really because we were written really short. so having a sort of curb the enthusiasm. But it all went well because just after that, the Argentinians, obviously they sort of were running off, retreating.

We followed them, the artillery. We followed them with the artillery. Quite bizarrely, when you actually put a load of rounds down in front of the people that are retreating, they like to look in the halls, so where the thing went off. For some reason, they'll like to congregate and have a look. And, you know, when you're on the radio like that, repeat.

And you send her, do I feel bad about that? You know, not at all. They're retreating. They're not surrendering. They're retreating. So these people could actually be going back to Sappa Hill on actually objective and end up killing us. So no qualms about chasing, restricting enemy at all, like that.

Thankfully, they're surrendered. And that was it finished. Unfortunately for me, it meant that I, we came back on the Canberra, which was more like a luxury liner, I suppose, painted white in a war zone, bizarrely. But I ended up, because my ankle was completely gammed up by then, I ended up three weeks in the, or two and a half weeks, for the whole voyage in the sickbay on antibiotics, drinking the odd sort of beer that the lads managed to sneak into the sick brain,

if that makes sense. Would I change it? Not at all. You know, it was the right call because we're a four-man tin and going sick. People that go sick in the war zone, unless you've had your arms shot off or you've lost your leg, there's a bit of a no-no. You know, get it strapped up and just get on with it. it like, you know, if that makes sense.

Because some of the people that were in Uganda were people that had been burnt up really badly on some of the vessels, or some of the people that had been shot in their head and, you know, you turned them up with your gami ankle. That didn't sit right for me. And that's why we made the decision ready to ignore the exuberant officer, the medical guy again.

So that's the second time now that I've had. issues with doctors. So that was in Falklands and it was great. A lot of respect for the Argentinians. I thought they fought bravely and, you know, as good as what they, being in mind that the Brits sent all their top people down there. You know, you had the SACS down there, SPS down there, two parachute battalins, three War Marine Commando groups

with their artillery support and everything else. So it was quite a high-powered British, element that went down there. And we all knew that once we got ashore, there was only going to be one outcome, I suppose. But we're getting close to that logistics nightmare of running out of ammunition. So thankfully, the United Silians surrendered, you know, perfectly on time, I suppose. The average person today is feeling the financial strain more than ever. Expenses are up, Wages aren't keeping pace, and many people are finding it nearly impossible to make ends meet. With little left over for covering the basics, it's no surprise that many are resorting to credit

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because your unit had sort of an Arctic warfare role at the time. Yeah, so because we were based up in our growth Scotland, so with four, five, we were in the Arctic role every year. So every, in the late December or very early January, you deployed three months you deployed to Norway, and you ended up going up to the Arctic Circle for the final exercise Narvik that area

but at that time Norway was fantastic because it was a dry cold it was flipping freezing but it was a dry cold and when it's a dry cold it's survivable it's quite easy as long as your ad bins on the ball

you're not going to lose your globe or you know your schoze ball off or whatever then it's manageable the coolest place I've ever been and Foxy you know you listen to Foxes podcasts. You know, he

alludes to it fantastically. Teddy Bridge Ranges in Wales is the coldest, and I've done five noise, is the coldest I have ever been, because it's a wet, damp, miserable cold. And when you're on there for seven

days and it's shocking down with rain, and it's the middle of winter, I'll tell you what, it really does just the, not only the morale, but the resilience of people. You go on exercises up in north of Scotland, up in the mountains up there. And again, same wet weather miserable. I'll tell you what. It certainly makes a matter good. And then 1986, your first shot at SAS selection, tell us about how that comes about, like,

how does the SAS come on your radar and you start to think, you know, this is something I want to do? Forklans Well obviously So when I was on the commander course The Iranian embassy siege kicked in And that was B Squadron So Beast Squadron was on the back of my I went out of a beach squadron

So that was when I first When I first joined the military I thought SAS was something to do with postal Special Air Service I didn't have a clue They were special forces Until the Iranian embassy siege

in 1980 And I happened to be on the command of course at that time, Daniel Limson. So that pricked my interest up somewhat. Then the Falklands came about. Northern Ireland, seeing these people turn up. We're failing along here at Besbrook Mill, driving in and out in Sibis. Again, you know, getting a feel for what they're doing. The Falklands, they had two squadrons active down there, G&D,

doing a great job. Unfortunately, I never actually came into contact with the SES teams because they were off doing their thing, if that makes sense, but you know, it was obvious. Then we did an exercise up in the north of Scotland when it was chucking down with rain. And the SES were up there, also part of the exercise.

And again, you just knew that, you know, that's the place. If you wanted to get to look further out in your military career, go into the SES is the obvious thing, because there's only so many operations that you can do in the Green Army, whereas the regiment, the SES seem to be involved in everything. So if you're that way orientated, then doing SES selection was the right thing to do, if that makes sense. So not in 86, about two or three years before that, I started training.

because it's like most things on the hills you know if you're going to do a course you study you know you do your homework and that lot your homework for the SES is up on the hills you know so that you know the roots inside and out because if you know exactly where you're going to be going it just means that it just takes a lot of pressure off here if that makes sense and some people are good at map reading

some people are not so good so the people that are really good at map reading, tend to do a winter course, you know, where the weather's right in front of you and you can't see the diddly squat, so, you know, you have to, your map reading's got me on the ball. And in them days it was great because there was no GPS, it was just map and compass and get on with it. And then the summer course, you know, in a way, because it was nice in summer, well, talking about the UK here, so two weeks worth of summer, maybe. but because it's fairly decent weather you know some people can get away without being really good at map reading

if that makes sense and unfortunately with 1986 we have their horrendous weather and it was and of course for me it was going great until the point where they said right we're going to have to cancel test week good if there's a weather so bad So we did a weapons week in their classroom. And so doing stuff that we would have done the week after test week

in the buildup ready to the jungle phase. So we did it a week early. But the weather didn't improve at all. So they said, listen guys, we're just going to have to go for it. So the first route that we did, so we're looking at seven routes here that you have to do for test week. And the first one was pretty easy going, I suppose. and I was about the fourth one off the truck.

And when you jumped off, literally the snow was up to your crutch, you have 45 pound Bergen on you, your weapon, and then up and down mountains. And away you go like, you know. Quite hard going, to be honest, especially for the first person, you know, because he's trail blows him, basically.

But it's not a case of, you know, one person goes off and everybody follows him. they've got about five different routes that you go off so you don't know which which way you're going to be going until you actually get to the checkpoint and they say right this is your next grid because the guy who's directly in front of you might be going to a different checkpoint

so that just negates that everybody following it but I got called off first for the first the second route and it was a horrendous place called Elon Belly which was really boggy and then you've got this sort of four foot of snow up to your crutch you know and off you go so off I went you know as you do crack on and I got to the second last

checkpoint and they bizarre knew the training major and the salt major of course I'm waiting and as I was coming in they just said ah Hotsie step off go and get yourself a nice nice cup of two over there. Nice bit of advice. Can get yourself a nice cup of two and then allow two people to sort of get in front of me. And I looked at him and thought,

is this a test? So it was fantastic advice, but, you know, like a dick kid, I totally ignored it. Because I thought it was a test, you know. No, I'm okay. You know, no problem. They went, oh, okay, then.

So I cracked on and all I remember is going up to the final checkpoint. and bear in mind the final checkpoint's on a high feature and then it was all downhill then down to the valley bottom where the vehicles were, you know, a piece of coke. All I remember is waking up in a helicopter. And that is quite a bizarre feeling, to be honest. And I was helicoptered back to Stirling Nines,

put into the sickbay, and they kept me in there all night. training major came in and said, you know, unfortunately, and the doctor has not recommended that you continue the course. So basically, you failed. You would want hypothermic out on the course? Sorry. You went hypothermic, I'd take it out on the course. Yeah, hypothermic and delirious and exhaustion, everything else.

But it's funny because the instructor who was up there on that checkpoint, He actually came in to see how I was. And he told me the story. He said, when you came in, he said, you took your Bergen off. You got your map out correctly. I told you which way to go. I put my map away.

Sort of said, yeah, yeah, happy that. And then I picked his Bergen up. Not mine. Picked his Bergen up. And they ran in the totally opposite direction to the way he told me to go. And that's when he knew there was some of MS here. So basically, rugby,

They start to you, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know what I mean? And I was just out of it completely out of the game like, you know. So what they said was, listen, you need to, because they won't be a fantastic report. And they said, listen, get Horsey back on me the next course, which is going to be the August course. And I went back to Scotland, our growth,

and thankfully, I suppose, and, you know, trying to try to say this nicely. But I actually met my future wife. Kim while I was up there in that sort of in period and and it was a you know I just sat looking in the mirror really and had a chat to myself as you do and thought the SES course is always going to be there it's not very often you make the perfect female like you know if that makes sense and the perfect girl so so I for certain going back on selection ready and and I built a relationship with this this lovely lady.

like, you know, who ended up giving me four fantastic children like, you know, so it was the right thing to do. So I then went back on selection in 88, and then I was fortunate enough to pass. And the reason I say fortunate, you know, 180 people start in our course. 12 was passed. And believe you me, you know, that first bit running up down the hills, it takes a lot out of your body and we always say if you can get yourself to you know test with the start of test week with at zero injuries

good to go it gives you a really good chance of actually getting through that selection phase that initial up and down the hill phase because that little phase bear in mind that that's not the hardest part of selection by any means but it's a way of getting the numbers to you know down to weather they want it. And it also gives

the selection instructors you know, they know that you've done your homework, basically. Because if you haven't done your homework and you know, you get lost on the hills and bizarre story. bizarre story. So I was coming over a hill

and this was on test week. Coming over a hill. And there was a dog in front of me, you know, in the middle of nowhere. But I recognised it. It was a little Jack Russell. And it and it belonged to one of the directing staff, one of the structures, because he had two of them.

They were a pain in the backside, to be honest. But, unbeknown to me, where his checkpoint was, a helicopter had come in, spooked the two dogs, and then just bomb-bursted. So it managed to find one of them, but the other one was gone. And to be honest, speak of him later, he actually said, I actually thought I'd lost a dog completely. but it was just sat in the middle of the track

and I thought, well, I recognise the dog and I can't really leave him here so with your burglar and I just struck him sort of holding on to the two back legs your weapon and literally ran up to the checkpoint where the DS was like you know and

there you go staff, there's your dog no thanks whatsoever but right your next checkpoint is okay then Thanks for that. You know, a way you go like, you know, bizarre, typical. So, yeah, managed to get through that bit.

Obviously, went to the jungle. By far the hardest part of selection, far unknown. Anyone that thinks we're not downhills as hard, you might as you get in the jungle. Unfortunately, we had a fatality in the jungle, so that was a bit of a wake-up call. And it was, we were doing a camp attack, and unfortunately, one of the lads had got a lot,

round mixed up with his blank ammunition when we did the camp attack. So we did ours in the morning, went really well. The camp attack went in there and you know when you, you know, there's a live round has just gone off here. You know, all the blanks are going and then this live round went. And basically what had happened was the guy fired the weapon and he was literally about four feet away from a guy dressed up in Chinese uniform. He was a young lad who was attached to the regiment. They've still got a plaque on the tree over and there in memory of this young lad.

So no one knew him really, but, you know, sad to say that someone died on training like, you know. And really that, you know, that was, you know, the start of being SES operations because then you realize that, you know, the training that you do is right on the edge because it has to be if that makes sense. But when the guy pulled the trigger, the live round smacked into the back of the blank firing attachment. But a slither of the round had sort of bed its way around down the side of the barrel. And it was this tiny slither that went straight through his heart.

And he basically was dead before he hit the floor. So quite bizarrely, all the people that were on that camp attack all had to hand their weapons in. The SIB, the military police, turned up in the jungle with their suits on, bizarrely. Be any mind, it's in crappy conditions. So they turn up to take statements. Nothing to do with us. You know, we were sort of out of the way.

So all the other lads had to hand their weapons in. They got told to go and cut a length of, you know, a bit of a tree trunk. That's going to be your weapon for the extraordinary. 24 hours, just so they had some of it to hold, and then fresh weapons were brought in the following day, and then it was just, you know, get on with it, crack on, you know, as per normal, like, you know. Manish to get to the end of that, end of selection, or the end of that part of it, we were down to 12, 13, 14, 15 people, we were down to 16, and then it was straight into combat survival.

Bizarrely, combat survival, so right near the end of the course, and everybody knows what combat survival is, you know, you go on a run for a few days, and then you get a bit of a kick in and a bit of interrogation, all that sort of stuff, but, you know, nothing untoward, I suppose. But we

lost four people, bizarrely. A guy got captured on the run and sacked himself out and thought, you know, if he's been captured, it means that he's failed. but actually quite a few people get captured on the run and all you do is you get a bit of a bit of a slap in

and then throw back out on the run like you know go on it don't get caught again you and pop it and away you go like you know and then so that was he went and he was a paratrooper bizarrely second one went the hyperventilated in his mask when he was masked up hyperventilated

third one didn't like the stress positions and it was funny because he's digging away to yourself because all you can hear is this guy whinging, whining, moaning and everything else. And he just said, fuck it, get me out of here. So he went and, you know, you're sort of chucking away yourself and whatever. And then the final one that was, in those days, it was the big five, name rank number, date of birth, and that was it. Something else.

Can't remember what it was. And that's all you were allowed to say, because it wasn't the old cover story type thing. It was just a straight forward. P-O-W. Yeah, absolutely, the old way. And that's all you could say. So I actually thought I failed because I, someone, when I was in a stress position, someone actually put a bit of bread in my hand and said, right, quickly, quickly put that

down your throat. And so as you do, so I chucked it, chucks it down my throat and chopped it down. But I made the mistake of saying, cheers, mate. Oh, and all of that was playing in my mind for the next three. three days because I actually thought I'd failed because I said

cheers mate and another guy who came out at the same time as me who nodded a question so he actually

thought he'd failed as well you know because if they had a video in you they could just manipulate that that nod

you know you hit a slaughter of the children yes in that makes so we we were pretty good really

we thought no we both failed here And then this guy came up and said, oh, is that all that happened? And we sort of looked at him and went, yeah, why? And he apparently blabbed his, you know, told his life story. So me and this lad that thought we'd failed, we sort of looked at him and thought, yeah, actually,

I think we're going to be okay there. So who failed? And that was the fourth one that went like, you know. So it ended up with their trog was the sort of fast, went straight on to doing black kit, just to getting used to, you know, find a weapon with a respirator on, you know, doing the anti-terrorist stuff and everything else. And then we get called in and you get badged.

And there's no ears and braces, you know, there's no big fancy parade. You just sat there. RSN comes in, throws your berry over to you. Congratulations, well done. Any questions, no. I might, you know, head off. And they read out what squadron or what squadron you're going to go to? And thankfully I wanted to go to B Squad Mountain Trip,

and that's exactly what I got. So four of us ended up going to B Squadden, and it was great. And that was the start of a fantastic time ready for me. I loved it, loved every minute of being in the SAS. And before long, you got shipped out for the Gulf War. Yeah, so if I've got any negatives about the SAS, It's this little period here.

And what it was was these ones were on the anti-terrorist team on the six-month build-up to the Gulf War. You had A and D-Swarden that were actively going to be deployed in theatre, fair dues. And then you had G-squadden who were on standby squadron at the time

and they were actually in the desert doing all the buildup, really. So spent six months, really, doing desert warfare. But then December, you know, so the buildup ready, I suppose, was in the January. But in the December, we did our sort of change around. And B squadron sort of, and what really should have happened was they should have said, listen, B squadron, you know, unfortunately, you're going to have to do another situation. month on the anti-cheris team, you know, because, you know, and G squadron are already, sort of, you know,

already good to go. So let's leave them in theatre. B squadron, you know, although, you know, it's not nice to do an extra six months, but, you know, you understand quite well. But they didn't, and B squadron deployed, really, so went out in theatre and were hunting, hunting for jobs. And I ended up in an eight-man team, really, up to the UAE to do a teaching task, doing anti-terrorism for the UAE government, as a favour, really, for British forces using facilities in the UAE. So it was a bit of a payback, I suppose, you know, while we're here, special forces or teacher.

We built this big coalition for the war, so. Yeah, it's exactly. When you see the bigger picture of it, you know, as an individual. pretty pissed off, you know, we should be up there fighting. And the pretense was that as an eight-man team, you know, if there was a lot of casualties, we would be airlifted and then sent straight up and take the casualties. And we were happy with that.

Literally two days before the ground war started, or sorry, the air war started, the CEO of T2SAS came in or came up to where we were, sat us down in the officer's mess and said, listen guys, unfortunately, your war is going to be here. So we ended up, you know, for the four months of the first Gulf War, we were sat watching it in the officers' mess in the Euro-E in the middle of training, watching it all pan out on CNN.

And when you're seeing, you know, T2SAS guys from Bravo 2-Zero being captured, not knowing where they are and seeing this all play out, it was quite a tough watch, to be honest. And to be honest, looking back on it, a bit prasical. You know, what the hell would be this one doing there in the first place? Should have had juice one out there. So that was a bit, you know, a bit of a raw thing for me. I didn't agree with it, but, you know, hey-ho, we just get on with it.

That passed, and then, thankfully, you know, I was lucky enough to volunteer, really, to get another night. because I've done a little stint with the regiment over in Northern Ireland in the out of the hangar because when you're on the anti-terrorist team when they need extra people to support the small team that you had over there you got sort of flowed over. So I've got a bit of attention for it. So totally different to the Northern Ireland that I did Green Army.

You know, this is now, you know, you're playing with the big boys, mostly. and so I got a bit of a taste for it so I thought, ah, I'll volunteer to do the 14-in-int, as we call it. Nowadays, it's called the surveillance and reconnaissance regiment, SRR, or as the S-A-S call it, the SES rejects regiment.

So if you fail S-E-S-E-S selection and you're half-decent lads, they'll say, listen, have you thought about doing the surveillance course, if that makes sense? A bit of a dig really at the SRR. They're good lads, to be honest, but they're not SES. Hey, guys, it's your pal Jack. I just want to take a moment to tell you about the sponsor for this show, which is Stopbox.

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the code is to hold down the index finger and pointer finger and then come over and there's a thumb. Hit that and it opens up. So that's the code. And this thing is proudly made in the US of A, so they keep the quality very high. It's also TSA compliant, so you can throw this in a bag and travel with it. And Stopbox also offers a range of other innovative products, including their vehicle safe, chamber lock, and other essential gear designed to keep you prepared and protected wherever you are. For a limited time only, our listeners are getting a crazy deal.

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So each of the squadrons will put someone on that course. And it's a great skill to have. Believe you and me, surveillance, the CTR, close target wrecking, and the CQB, the close quarter battle, is that they are exceptional skills to have in your armour. And it's why you do it. But what you do is you put yourself on a bit of a pedestal because everybody likes to fail an SS.

guy. So I got called in, you know, a guy who'd done the course before me. I said, there's a word of advice. When you go down there, shut your mouth. Even though someone who's teaching you hasn't got the same experience with what you've got, just shut your mouth and allow men to, you know, it's their toy, basically. And so that was an attitude. I went down there with the perfect attitude. you know, yeah, yeah, and I just, you know, suck your thumb and just get on with it like that.

I was lucky enough to pass a course, and again, the reason I say that is how the hell I never failed, I don't know. Because when we used to do all the surveillance, at the end of it, they would bring the target in that you've been following, and they would say, right, you know, let's have, right, you know, what did you see as a target?

What did you say of it? Well, Mick, you know, I saw you, do this and oh Mick and you know everything was at me and I was on I'm I the only one on this flipping surveillance course or what and so I actually and this went on on on and I thought plucking off that course so I went in for an interview with their training major and he said right Mick how how do you feel congratulations first of all for passing well done I went to be honest I said, I'm shocked, I'm here. He said, well, why?

I said, well, you ring some of them briefings. You know, it was as if I was the only one on the course. You know, I'm getting picked out for everything. You know, I'm obviously not that good. And he went, Mick, bear in mind that the course is being run in Hereford. He says, all you're doing, you're getting stuck in. And we can see that. You're getting stuck in there.

There's some of the people on this course now that never got stuck in. And if you don't get stuck in in a nice safe environment like Hereford, you've got fat chance of getting stuck in when you're working against hard terrorists over in Northern Ireland. He said, so we can rein you in, if that makes sense. Some of the people here that we've got with us now, you know, are going to need a bit of a gentle push to get them out there. And he said that, and that's why you passed. So I took that on board, really. went over to Northern Ireland for 18 months

it was a six month course I was lucky enough to do North Belfast the markets and the short strand area which was sort of classed of South Belfast and we had a bit of the West Belfast as well so I had a really active you know and we were the Shankill

the Ardoin the Tigers Bay all these sort of areas were very closely, closely connected between the Protestants and the Catholics, if that makes sense. So I spoke with a British accent, you know, what are you looking at? And I never once attempted to speak

with a Belfast action, because why would you try and pretend to be someone you're not? Because, you know, if a Belfast local speaks to me and I try and speak, you know, Irish, they're going to look at me straight away and think you're not from here so I just used to and I bear in mind that my hair was

a lot longer than what it is now it was practically on my shoulders had a big gold earring in my ear big pirate thing and my sort of cover ready was that I was a chippy so I had lots of bits of wood in my car every now and then I would walk out

and I'd have my carpenter belt on you know nails all over the place and that was my cover thing and you always won up so you weren't working in twos like MI5 you know there's three people in a car in Northern Ireland you're on your own so if you get yourself in the shit you need to get yourself out of it if that makes sense and it was great I absolutely loved it

what I found out was I was not the technical whiz kid so some of these people had fantastic you know the cameras all in their car and all that sort of them yeah I didn't have any that's not my that's not my game but what I was good at was getting out of the car and following these people and being right behind them

and you know and getting stuck in and finding out where and it is horses for courses you know because every unit needs people that are quite bawlsy I suppose because my get out of jail was always a pistol. You know what I mean?

So, you know, it pushed a couple of shove, that's going to get me out of trouble every time, like, you know. So, and unlike the, the Northern Ireland police, their surveillance teams, E4A,

who are the most bravest individuals I've ever met, because they're working in an environment where they live, if that makes sense. Whereas British Army people, you know, with our little fancy long hair and we're in,

in there for 18 months and then we're out of it. So we can really push the envelope, if that makes sense, knowing that my family is back in Harvard, you know, not living somewhere else. So I literally took my hat off to these, you know, the E4A surveillance operators for the Royal Ulster Constabulary, extremely brave individuals. Same as the normal police force. Thankfully, we had quite a successful time. We must have put quite a few bad people away, if that makes sense. And being in mind, you know, this is not about, you know, working against the IRA. This is working against bad people.

And unfortunately, the IRA just happened to be worse than most people. So a lot of our work is obviously against the IRA. But, you know, we've done a lot of successful operations against a Protestant community as well. you know if they're planning a plan on planning some of that and they're carrying a weapon's intent on killing somebody then you know we're going to

take them on because literally they're bad people carrying a weapon and this and that. So it was a fantastic tour. Really enjoyed it and that's where I got my Queen's Award Queen's combination for bravery for operations over there.

So that was a nice little touch to get that when you came back. But I literally finished oh yeah so because my hair was so long every time I came or flew back into Birmingham Airport I just to get dragged aside by the customs immigration or whatever like you know because for some reason they I looked like a drug runner

and as soon as you pulled your army ID card out they'd look and go hold on you're not army actually I am but you know and it was great So I really enjoyed it. But came back and it was straight into, back onto the anti-terrorist team. And that's, to be honest, that's why the SAS are good at what they do. Because the diversity in their roles is just staggering, you know, from long hair, shave it all off, anti-terrorist team.

Finish anti-terrorist team, Bosnia, away you go. And so you've got individuals who can adapt to any environment. and get on with it. And make a, even with crappy equipment and, you know, bad communication, they'll make it work. Because that's the key thing about an SES individual. You know, and it's quite unique, you know, some of the things that they can come up with and make it work.

And it's great. So tell us about taking some of your undercover experience and surveillance experience to the Balkans. Yes. So it's quite interesting, actually, because a lot of the work you do is intelligence gathering. That's one of the main roles of the – I've been in mind that we were still part of the UN at the time because we were lucky enough to be over there. When it was UN – the first three months was a UN tour, and then overnight you just paint the wagon,

you know, take that blue – well, actually, we never ever, never ever wore UN equipment at all. And the reason we did it is we worked in four-man teams all around the country. And if we were to follow the UN mandate, you know, where you blew berry and all that crap, you'd never get any work done because, you know, you're following a mandate that was completely flawed, if that makes sense. So we didn't do that. So we didn't wear, didn't wear berries. Never wore body armor. And the reason being is a lot of our work was working with the front.

line troops. And if you're working with frontline troops and you turn up your fancy body armor on and your big blue helmet looking a complete dick, you lose the street credits straight away. These people have got no interest. So we used to dress how they dressed, you know, they look like a bag of crap. We look like a bag of crap. You know, it's just that, you know, street thread, if that makes sense. And, you know, you can do a lot of things. If you're not dressed as UN, you can get away with a lot more stuff as well by doing your job. Because ultimately, your job is to get as much intelligence that the normal UN can't get and get that sent down to Sarajevo to one of the generals, General Jackson or General Smith

or whoever the general was down there. And that's your role. And it's quite a balsy thing to do, you know. And we always... So if I'm talking to a major in the Serb Army, or a major in the Muslim Army, instantly I'm a colonel, you know, a lieutenant colonel, you just up your rank so that you're, because that's the only way of getting respect of these people. Now, I don't look like a lieutenant colonel, and I certainly don't speak like a lieutenant colonel.

But, you know, that's just the way you go about your business life, you know, and a way you go. But some really interesting stuff comes in it. So the surveillance side of it is great that you can, however, yeah, yeah, So a lot of a situation of awareness and all that lot. But unfortunately, it backfired. We're in this sort of non-U.N. look about us. Because I was working with Billy Billingham. Who days wins.

Most Americans will probably recognize them. Billy was a great friend of mine. We're in the same troop, Mountain Truth, Beach One Mountain Truth. Billy had sort of joined about two years after me, something like that. But I've been away. So Billy deployed instantly when Beast Squad went out. out there and I was delayed about three weeks and I think I was on a course or can't remember all it was but I was delayed so I came out there three weeks after the boys had been out there

so when I got there so Billy was showing us around you know getting used to the area and we got asked to set up a meeting between two generals Serb General and a Muslim general General General Dadaakovich from firecore quite a hardcore Muslim general actually quite a decent individual but they're quite hard cool just get on with it and they're serving so we did the record as you do you do a little record beforehand so we went down there the day before to the location which was just outside a place called sandski mosque if people know sort of was there and we we recognized we did a record in the play there but went down and spoke to the frontline troops both Muslim and the and the and the and the

Serbs, had a chat with them, a quick slid with each, coffee, I mean, had a quick sort of drink with them, quick hello, blah, blah, blah. Listen, guys, we're going to see you tomorrow. We'll pop down for a chat tomorrow. So the next day, we set the meeting up, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was a UN meeting. So the four-man team, two of our guys stayed at the meeting. UN were doing all they, you know, doing their thing, whatever they do, UN, doing their thing.

And then we had two warrior vehicles. One was on the Muslim side of it, which was from the light infantry, British unit, infantry unit. And then the other one was sort of pushed down towards a surfside and about a kilometre into no man's land. To me and Billy, you know, looking like a bag of crap, no berries on, just pistols. We walked past the checkpoint,

which is where the light infantry were, banged on those things, said, listen, guys, we're just going down for a quick chat with the Serbs. Infantry looked at us and thought we were mad at us. Caught down to the front-line troops to, you know, expecting to meet the same people that we were speaking to the day before. And then just walking up, you could see everything that had changed now. It was different, different troops. And we should have put two and two together and thought,

if they're going to bring the jungle up, they're going to bring their top troops up as well. And we never factored that in at all. So my situation of awareness, straight out of the window. And so got down there, as you do, you know, because again, quite bullsy, you know, what you're trying to do. Got there and all of a sudden, you know, we were surrounded. And there's eight and nine serbs pointing an AK-47s at you.

Not a lot you can do, you know, you're not going to take them on. Two of you with pistols, you're not going to take, you know, eight or not. who already got the weapons in their hands and good to go. So it was, you know, just saying, hey, listen, guys, trying to calm it all down. Deasperator. So they then took us into a small building, took our pistols, all our spare magazines,

ID card. We had maps and notebooks with us, but thankfully they're all sterile. There's nothing written on there whatsoever, which is good. spent about an hour doing quick interrogation talk and we were both together. They then decided that they were going to drive us

about 45 minutes further down the line to a place called Priyodor which was heavily surveyed. So they put us in the back of the vehicle, a little four-by-four vehicle. There was a major who was driving who spoke really good English and then there was a big

big burly chap sat you know in the passage seat with an AK 47 me and Billy were on the backseat and we were sort of whispering as you do this guy

the English guy sorry the guy who spoke English said some and served to the big burly guy who literally span round on a suit and then cocked his AK 47 in our faces. I mean, Billy sort of actually looked over,

and I don't know what it was, but we both started laughing. And the reason being is, you expect someone on the front line to have a weapon already caught. And military mentality taken over, you're like, hold on, if I'd known that he didn't have a round in the chamber,

we could have flipping jumped him. So that, you know, and I think a lot of it was nearly, as well, if that makes sense. But anyway, so being laughed at, it didn't go down too well with this individual. So 40 minutes further up there, we got to a camp, basically, and off we went. Now, because I've done two years in Northern Ireland, we do the cover story. You get captured, what are you training, go through a cover story.

So I had a rough, you know, I knew what was coming if that makes sense. And my cover story was great. You know, I'd only been in country two weeks, and I'm just a driver. And that was my cover stories. You know, they didn't know that. You know, I was actually seen it at Billy. So got there. I got dragged in first for interrogation, pulled us in, and I just stuck with that story.

Listen, I know nothing. I've been here two weeks. I'm a driver. And that was it. And they tried to get more out of you? No. No, no nothing. I haven't got a clue.

No, sorry. And anyway, the throw is that disgust. And then poor old Billy got dragged in. Now, Billy had been on a Cervo Criot course. So learned a bit of Cervo Criot and made the mistake of trying to answer in Serbo Criot. And as soon as he did that, they put two and two together. You know, I was the fitting outside in the corridor

that knew nothing, the driver. So a bit of a waste of space out there. This is the person that we could have to concentrate on. Yeah, and poor old Billy, so Billy got dragged out. I was expecting to now go in. Billy went back in again, out in. I'll tell you what. So they never touched me at all.

Although I was getting a bit of a hard time sat outside, you know, because, you know, as they do, you know, threaten you with knives and, you know, put a knife in your, you know, typical normal, you know, psychological, whatever. But nothing untoward if that makes sense. sense, you know, you knew that they weren't going to kill you. You know, why would they? But it was just intimidation.

So, and you can live with that. So just get on with it like that. But poor old Billy was getting dragged in and out. And then eventually we managed to get fairly close together. And we sort of lent over and, you know, Billy said, hey, what did you tell him? And I went, sorry, mate, but I just said, I'm the driver. Billy looked at me.

Yeah, but I'm the driver. you lose, mate. If you're going there first, you're obviously going to get your cover story out the way first, like, you know. So, yeah, so it was good. But eventually we got released because the front line,

the two other guys reported us missing, the general down in there, down in Tarrague said, listen, go into the meeting now and arrest him serve general and threaten him, we're taking him back to the Muslim lines. And this guy pooped his pants.

got on the sat phone and got us released right away, if that makes sense. Mick? So we were walking back, basically, having got our kickback, you know, so went through where the warrior vehicle was. Right, lads, yeah, we're back now. Again, the infantry sort of shaking their head, what the hell? You know, and we were talking thinking, that wasn't a major drama. You know, that for us, some of the stuff that we do in Bosnia,

you know, you expect to be either shot at, or a bare minimum, to be quite frank. Because some of the stuff that we used to get away with was just balls into the point of, you know, you're really pushing the envelope there. So being captured was for us, you know, it was, you know, so the next day you just get up, have a shower

and out you go and do your normal job like, you know, it wasn't a big issue. Did you ever find out why they, detained you like that? Was there a specific reason or is it just like one guy who had a wild hair up his ass thought he was a tough guy and I'm going to detain these Brits? No, no, we spooked him because we actually spoke to the major. So when it became, when UN finished and it became NATO, the individual that interrogated is became our, became our liaison officer, if that makes sense, bizarrely.

And, yeah, and basically we spooked them because we didn't look like UN. We had no UN kit on us and all of a sudden these trains. So they correctly identified you as special something or other? Yeah, yeah. But they never got it out of us that we were. Because being in mind that Grozley and not sorry, but Shreberditzer, we had SES teams there that were actually bringing in fast jets and the BBC, typical BBC,

they actually recorded an SES team bringing in and broadcast it on the World Service and the Serbs obviously knew that. So the Serbs knew that the SES were capable of bringing in fast air jet. Yeah, yeah. So for them to get two SES guys prisoner, but they never got anything out of us. They never cottoned on, you know,

they played it by ear and, you know, got released like, you know. But quite bizarrely, so nobody knew, so apart from the other two lads, the major in charge of B squadron and A, probably another couple of people, they were the only people that knew that we'd been captured.

None of the other, you know, because we just kept it nice and quiet, you know, just get on with it like, you know. So when Billy came on Who Dare's Wins on TV, he alluded to the fact that he'd been captured, you know, and started talking about it like, you know. Anyway, so he was getting phone calls from members of B Squadron back in the UK. Hold on, Billy. You've never been captured.

He went, actually. We were captured in Bosnia. Because we just kept it quiet. Because we were at the time, you know, in that era, it wasn't a big drama you know what I mean captures you get a bit of a cliffing and a bit of rib tickling with a knife

and getting threatened and cutting your head off and that stuff but you know normal stuff that you would expect to be quite frank you know it wasn't a big issue so yeah and that's you know the attitude that we had I suppose

but it was a great talk you know sort of finished on that and then for me for mayor was straight over was at MI5 bizarre. So again, this is where that diversity comes in. You know, you just finished a six-month tour in Bosnia, you know, doing the stuff that we were doing there, like, you know, and then all a sudden go back to UK, and then working with MI5 for two years, like, you know, so it was

interesting time. So what is it like, I mean, you guys in the, in the UK have a slightly different system than us, you know, MI5 is sort of like Britain's, as I think, think of it, their domestic intelligence service, roughly equivalent to our FBI. What's it like as an active duty SAS soldier to be sort of seconded to MI5? Yeah, it was quite disappointing, I suppose. Made in mind that you're used to doing surveillance in Northern Ireland against bad people. In Bosnia. Yeah, your skills need to be on point.

if that makes sense. And then all of a sudden, you're following people around London, people up in Liverpool, where you didn't really need that same sort of third party awareness about you. You know, you weren't in a Storge Catholic estate, you know, you're just in the middle of London. So they, yeah, so the surveillance skills of M.I.5, I personally thought was not fantastic, if that makes sense.

compared to what we were used to. And I had a few runnings with them. You know, we were following Russian diplomats on a Sunday. And Russian diplomats, they like to do car boot sales all around the, you know, Kent and all that area around Essex. And we were following these people. And it just, you know, you thought, hold on, you know, following Russians doing, you know,

I've just been following, you know, bad people in Northern Ireland. and now I'm doing it. So again, you know, you have to, you know, shut your mouth and just crack on with it by, you know. But, you know, there was a couple of really good jobs. I learned quite a lot of MI5 the way they operate. You know, it wasn't the most exciting of two years. But it was an important two years, really.

Again, it's a learning curve. And you're there representing T2SAS in, you know, a major organisation. if that makes sense. And the people there were just fantastic. You know, a lot of veteran military people. Really good people, you know, doing, not paid a fantastic amount of money, but doing a great service, really, for the government, really, stopping major terrorism, like, you know, if that makes sense.

So, yeah, it was different. You know, it wasn't as intense as the 18-month that you'd spent, in Belfast. Because believe you mean, Belfast surveillance, surveillance all over the UK, mainline UK. But you were chasing around some IRA and some Albanians

around the greater London area. Yeah. So the IRA was setting up. It just so happened that the IRA had a cell operating predominantly out of West London area. And

And this went on for quite a while this survey. And this is where, basically when I came back, I said, listen, we're working for the wrong people. Because, you know, MI5 don't carry weapons. So we don't carry weapons because you're working with an MI5. And then you've got the anti-terrorist team and the special branch all armed up. So as soon as the job was getting really interesting, someone pointed out that the IRA cell might.

might be carrying weapon. And as soon as that came up, MI5 got pinned. You know, sorry you can't operate against him because you're unarmed. And we, you know, we were biting, you know, hold on. You know, this is our bread and butter now.

This is where we're going to get stuck in, like, you know. And we sort of, so when I basically went back here, but I literally said, you know, maybe we should be working for someone else, but working with MI5 because they're unarmed. You're not actually going to be at the forefront of that.

you know, that job, if that makes sense, that's going to go down to the anti-terrorist team and their surveillance team and special branch, which is the people that we should be working with, to be quite frank. So, yeah, it was interesting TV's. But, you know, did I really gain a lot of it?

No, I don't think I did. Apart from learning London, like the back of my hand, which is good. I meet some fantastic people, but professionally, yeah, didn't, you know, I didn't really learn a lot to be quite frank. You guys, and during this time frame had an IRA guy shot, though, right? And as a father, as part of your investigation.

Yeah, so that's where it all finished. But so basically, the IRA cell were meeting in a safe house in, or they thought was a safe house, a little hotel in, in, no, anyway, Westman part of the last month, London. And basically the police decided to go in and make a hard arrest, if that makes sense. And unfortunately, when they make the hard arrest, you know, there's a good chance that someone's going to pull the trigger. And what happened was, unlike SES, where when we gain entry, it's generally in one door. So, you know, you blow the door in and you're in there. the police don't have the

satisfaction of having explosive entry you know they're not allowed to use it whereas we can so you know there's a lot of banging of doors and you know making holes in the door and so quite a lot of confusement and a grenade

smoke grenade gets thrown in there and in all the confusion I suppose one of the IRA guys got shot dead and unfortunately it was unarmed So that that caused a few a few dramas as well When you've got two teams coming in two different doors Shout in and everything else

You know the the Irene guy's not talking out of a clue What what is supposed to do I suppose So that that caused a bit of a bit of a gnaws I bet On the inquest You know why he was shot dead If that makes sense But you know call me old fashion

But you know if you're an IRA cell Working on mainland Europe mainland, you know, Britain, then you're up to no good if that makes sense. So zero sympathy, I suppose. You know, if that's the profession that you intend to do, that's the same as, you know, we're getting a lot of bad press at the moment because of incidents are happening in Northern Ireland. And, you know, because, you know, SES are quite robust in their actions.

and when you're dealing with hardcore terrorists and you come face to face with them, generally there's any one outcome, that's what we're in there. You just get on with it like, you know, somebody's Gibraltar, exactly the same. You know, these people were there to murder innocent people. You know, they were there to blow up a band, a military band, but by position in the car where they were going to put that car,

the blast radius would have wiped out quite a few civilian people. and people tend to forget that and thankfully they were dispatched before they could actually do their deadly dude if that makes sense is that a bad thing? No not at all.

Again, these people were intent on harming individuals other people and I can honestly say that every IRA terrorist who was actually shot dead by special forces predominantly the SAS. The world

is a safer place, to be honest, because that is a bad person who was intent on killing quite a few other people, you know, so no sympathy whatsoever. Yeah, I mean, the targeting civilians is kind of like beyond the pale. That's kind of like there's whatever your politics are, that's taking it too far. Yeah, I'd say what's frustrating is the IRA at the moment and Sinn Féin, what they're trying to do changed history of the troubles. We all know about the Good Friday Agreement and then all the IRA terrorists got released.

You know, you have the Shankill bombing 18 months before that. Peace talks come out of then. These people that blew up, you know, eight people or whatever, nine people in the Shankill bombing, now released out walking the streets. Yet you've got British troops who are being hounded by, you know, incident. And, you know, I put a post on LinkedIn

and I said, you know, there's a big difference between an IRA terrorist and a soldier, a British soldier, because a British soldier wakes up in the morning over in Northern Ireland without the thought that he's now going to be going out and killing someone. An IRA terrorist does that. They plan that weeks in advance. IRA, the army, we just respond

to a situation, not about making. And unfortunately, sometimes, innocent people get killed. But certainly the military guy, you know, when he's reacting to a situation, which is not a big making, you know, he's just dealing with it. You know, unfortunately, innocent people do get killed. And they, you know, the British Army are not, you know, they're not whiter than white. You know, some people have been killed, you know, unfortunately.

accidentally. But it's not the intent of a brick soldier to go out and murder people. You know, it just happens because they're reacting to a situation. Slightly different to an IRA terrorist. You know, they go out, they plan on murdering lots of people.

Big difference. So from there, you spent your two final years in the SAS in the training cell, both for 14th intelligence company and SAS? Yeah, so it was running the C. Close Quarter Balsall. Fantastic job, really. And it was me and another SES guy, Keb Smith, rest in peace,

who unfortunately passed away about four years ago with a heart attack. But we run it, and it was fantastic. We had a great time. And it was good because we actually changed the whole course. Because the course that we took over, all the situation awareness stuff that you do on it, was actually really realistic. You know, people get really hurt going through these scenarios.

Because ultimately, we're taking soldiers, training them up, picking them up, and then putting them into an environment where they need to be up and running straight away. So all the training that we do is really right on the edge, you know. And, you know, we've had people nearly shot in the head and all this sort of thing. and we don't have safety arts, you know. We used to go down to Sellybridge with the normal British Army to take over ranges, and the range wardens will be down there. And you go down there once a year to sort of fill out your forms and stuff,

and they'd say, right, I've got all your templates and all the British Army are handing their templates over. You know, we turn up with a cup of coffee in your hand saying, yeah, sorry, no templates. Sorry, who are you? Seriously. And everybody knows that, you know, because we kind of port out templates, you know, because some of the stuff we're doing is actually quite risky.

So you just give on with it and just make it up as you're going along. You know, I know it sounds a bit callous, but some of the drills that you have to sort of pass across, there's no time ready to have these safety arcs. Because you're doing them with people that, you're doing it with people. you expect to be able to do this on the streets in Belfast. So it has to be at a certain level, if that makes sense. You know, those are not kids. It's funny, we nearly had a fatality on the ranges,

and it was two people firing down the street on the same side of the street, and it was a female and a parachuter, of all things. And the parachute was at the front, and he was kneeling down, firing his pistol, and then the girl was behind him firing over the top of his head because she's the woman stood up behind. And the drill is, you know, before you actually make your move, you just take a quick glance so that you've got eye contact with the girl behind you.

She sort of acknowledges that you're now going to stand up. So she basically puts a weapon up, allows him to run past. and then she goes down in the kneeling position and continues fine. And it's quite a simple drill, if that makes sense. We used to teach way back when, I guess now, I mean, we used to teach that if somebody's in the kneeling position and you're shooting over their head, you actually come up over the top of them so your arms are over their head

so that if they stand up, they're not going to be in the line of fire. No, we don't do that. The reason we don't do it is you're in doorways. Because if you're on the street, you're in one doorway, and the other one's in another doorway. So there could be about five feet between you. And that's why you need that eye contact, if that makes sense. And there's a lot of trust here in back makes.

Anyway, so it goes. But unfortunately, now, every drill that we always get it videoed so we can play it back and blah, blah, blah. So anyway, what happened was the paratrooper, instead of turning around and looking, he literally stood up as she fired. And literally the bullet reached his hair, put a farting through his hair, if that makes sense.

Anyway, so, and she was flapping. You know, she was really cut up about it. So we said, listen, you know, crack on, let's change around, just carry, no. Because we needed, especially her, we needed her to just, you know. all the confidence. Get back into it like, you know, get back on the horse. But that evening, we actually got the footage of a, you know,

and we saw how close that bullet was. And we thought, right, there's a good opportunity now. So we got the whole course. So some of the course are doing surveillance. Some of the course are doing close target wrecking. Our lot were doing C2B. So we've got them all in the course. And bear in mind that the Rangers, we were the most made-back training team

because it's being fair, you know, and having a good laugh and everything else. But as soon as you step on that range, hey, you know, Robocop, you're good to go like, you know. So fairly relaxed, but now we're working. So you need to start switching on. So we took them all back. We got them in the cinema, showed them the footage this party. And everybody thought, flipping hell. You know, this guy was minima, millimeter's really, from getting the back of his head or the front of his head shut off, like, you know.

And what we said so, you know, let's not make a big drama out of this, but you just need to know the simple facts of life. You mess up on surveillance, you're going to get a slap on the wrist. You mess up on CQB, you're going to get a slap on the wrist. You mess up on that range, you're going to blow someone's head off like, you know. And it wasn't the girls' fault at all. It was the individual that was at the front, the paratrooper, who was at fault. And he understood that, if that makes sense. But it's so easy to do.

And like I say, when you're teaching normal army people, females, paratroopers, whoever, you're trying to get them to a level very similar to the SAS, if that makes sense. But you've only got a certain amount of time to do it. So the learning curve is absolutely massive. You know, you get these people on the normal on the range, doing your normal sort of drills initially. And then when you start to bring in, you know, different things running down the side of a street,

car drills, you know, firing in a car and all the other things. But then you do all the situational awareness stuff as well, which is all blank firing, obviously. But it's where people get battered. You know, we have a civilian population and people. And what you do is you don't just throw people in the deep there. it's a slow buildup. So you do 11 days worth of situation awareness,

you know, so, you know, one situation per day. And it's a slow buildup, really, of what they would be doing in Northern Ireland. You know, what someone walking up to you asking you the time, you know, how are you going to react or whatever. And it's just seeing how this individual is going to react to a bit of stress. And it all builds up to, getting building and battered,

jumped in the back of a car and dribbled around and then interrogated and stuff like that. So it's quite hairy and quite people do get hurt, but it's realistic and it has to be because ultimately, as soon as these people finish the course and they're passed, bang, they're straight over in Belfast. And you mess up in Belfast, you know, you're going to end up getting yourself killed.

As we saw with them two signals guys who got slaughtered in the car in Westbelt a few years ago. Are you talking, I'm thinking about years ago in the, there's video of it, the surveillance team that got caught in the middle of a funeral procession? Yeah, it wasn't a surveillance team. It was two signals, guys. One of them was leaving. One of them was sort of just turning up.

And the one who was leaving decided for some bizarrely. to drive him around certain areas and it just ended up in West Belfast in a place that was a no-go area and that's why because everybody run around and went hold on is that the surveillance team no it's not our people is that the SES no no you know they're not there and and that's why nobody went into because they actually thought it was a Protestant because because a Protestant had already attacked the funeral a few months before, they actually thought it was a similar thing. So all they did was they actually, you know, when it pushed come to shove, it was two signals, lads, ready.

So all they had was a pistol. You know, if that had been an S-S car, let me have been hell carnage, because the firepower that's in that car would have been horrendous because the guys wouldn't have waited, that had just gone for it like, you know, if that makes sense. But it changed the mindset of how you went about, you know. So, you know, in future generations, in fact, if you're ever in that situation again, basically you've just got to start taking people out. So whoever is the ringleader that's using all the, you know, all that, you just shoot him in the face,

you know, put him down and just try and calm the rest of the people down. But, you know, it completely changed the way that we, went about our training and on our outlook. If you, you know, if ever you got put in that position yourself, I know, but horrendous, to be honest. And I just really unfortunate that it was two signals, lads, in the wrong place. Yeah, the wrong time.

Yeah, the wrong time. Talk to us about retirement a little bit. And, you know, as you enter to, you know, the Brits call the circuit, the private security circuit, you start working in gas and oil security. Yeah, well, I mean, the very first job I got was actually looking after the agri-cone, of all things. So, literally, been out a couple of months, got asked to run it in Central Asia, looking after the agri-car. Really interesting, because it was working with the presidents of Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan,

setting up meetings with the Massoud from way back before he got assassinated about a year later, to be honest. But it was a really interesting job and really opened my eyes up to the civilian market. But it wasn't summit that I really wanted to pursue. I'm not really mad keen on close protection and stuff like that.

So I ended up getting myself into gas and oil. and I managed to get a job in Kazakhstan for four years. Shevon, Texaco were out there. It was a multinational, so I was the Western security manager. Really lucky how I got the job, because I was competing against people that had been out of the army for quite a while. Literally, I'd been out about four months ready, so didn't have any paperwork, no templates.

There's six of us, and we all had to go out to, Kazakhstan of all places to do a secure assessment of a site, write a secure assessment. Then the following week, another guy went to. You all went at a different time and I was the last one to go. Good out there, spoke to the people that we're supposed to be working with, found out what their troubles were, what the issues were, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Probably wrote the worst report out of all of them. I didn't have anything to sort of play with

but they actually said to me they said at the end of it right who you've seen the six guys now who do you want to work with and they went well Mick because Mick was the only one that actually spoke to him all the other people had gone out there you know got to write a report

and actually forgot the fundamentals of winning the hearts and minds of you know talking to people and that's how I got the job really so I ended up doing six weeks on two weeks off for all of it years and 9-11 went through two weeks after 9-11 I flew back to the UK two weeks at home flew back we were on an Italian charter flight and we cut the corner the bottom corner of Russia and I looked out of the window

And there was two big fighters escort in our plane. And they diverted us into Moscow. And the only thing that was playing on my mind was that Japanese Sempur 747 that got shut down over Saklin Island about four years before by Russian fighter jets when they blew the Japanese 747 out there. And I just thought, oh, here we go. So they forced us to land.

And what had happened was the Italian Charter Company. because everyone was on high because of 9-11, the Charter Company had neglected to inform Russian authority that they were used in their airspace to fly over. And because they didn't have authority, the Russian sent up aircraft. So they took the aircraft, accommodated it, stuck us on another aircraft and flew us down south of the country. We then got on a bus and sort of over the border.

back in the Kazakhstan, which is quite interesting. So did that for four years. Fantastic job. It then came to a halt. I then ended up going to Equatorial Guinea. You got to tell us this story, Mick. Yeah, basically a one-year contract, really, to do this. But as it happened, Simon Mann decided that it was going to do that attempted coup.

And he wasn't in Equatorial Guinea. He was out of country. But there was Ming and another guy working at Marathon Oil, of all places. It was planned in Zimbabwe, right? Yeah, absolutely, because that's where the aircraft got stopped. Yeah. And they all got arrested. But I had quite a few run-ins with the authorities.

I'm not a big fan of corruption. so we had a JCP stolen. So I recovered it. You know, and what they'd done is they'd sort of painted it a different colour, but, you know, they neglected to take the number of the engine. So I've got two lads from Texas to come down there with a big pickup vehicle, and we dragged this JCP all the way back. And, you know, anyway, the police came in, you know, corrupt to the call,

police came and said, listen, you need to give us a JC feedback because we've got it under surveillance. I went, no, you never, because otherwise you would have stopped to be down there. I said, we don't need your help anymore. We've recovered our own equipment. And then for the next five days, a more senior policeman was coming in to be a bit of a bollicking. Anyway, at the end of it, the company got fined $40,000 for interfering. in a police investigation, corrupting the call. The next one was a lad from Texas, came in, flew in,

he had a live round in the bottom of his bag because he used to go hunting. And you know these grips that you've got? Yeah, yeah. Very easy for a rat, you know what I mean? We've all been there. And anyway, so flew from Texas into, or Houston, into Equatorial Guinea,

When it went through the X-ray machine, they made a big drama out of it, massive drama out of it. So the poor lad was absolutely cracking himself. So I went down to help him. And I said, listen, give me the bullet. And I said, right, and it was, you know, 7.62 compared to, you know, 7.62 short, indifference. And I said, listen, this is a genuine mistake, blah, blah, blah, blah.

You know, let's not make a drama out of this. I said, okay, no problem at all. $40,000 fine again. For some reason, $40,000 seem to be the magic number. Yeah, the magic number. And the company paid for it. And I said, listen, what's going on here? I said, every time you pay this fine,

they're just going to fine you're all the signs. Yeah, yeah. It's easy money for them like that. So, you know, I've got a reputation of not being too nice to the local. authority. So then you had the coups that I kicked in. And it was just a great excuse, really, to get rid of this noisy individual, getting kicked out of country.

I had a massive running with the president's son as well. Oh, my life. So the president's son decided to turn up at marathon oil at their sports facility, drinking alcohol. And anyway, so I was, I'm barely in mind that two weeks before we'd actually had a presidential visit. And it all went fantastic, you know, proper protocols were followed and everything else.

So I found out, you know, all the gates were open. I was like, hold on, how come the gates were open? President's son here, you know, blah, blah, blah. I went, hold on. What the hell is he doing it? And it was a playboy guy who eventually got arrested by the French anyway. But he was down at the... So I went down there, and before I could get older,

the president's son, his bodyguard. sort of intervened and I said listen why in your neck in in but you know President's son needs to go because you're not following protocol

anyway so we wanted to kick them out and obviously that didn't go down too well so then you had the queue and it was just so I ended up getting walked out the country and quite bizarrely

when I joined SPM offshore for 15 years one of the first locations that they sent me, Equatorial Guinea. And as I was flying in, I just thought, what if they're going to remember me? And as it happened, when I got kicked out, there was no electronic stuff at the airport.

It was really old-fashioned. When I flew in the second time, literally four years later, it was all electronic, so there was no, I didn't have to worry about it. if that makes sense. And actually, I've been back four times since then and never had any issues.

But unfortunately, when you're dealing with West Africa, massive amount of corruption goes with that. And you just got to work with it and just get on with it. And living in Nigeria for six years, believe you to me, I know every scam off by heart. Because, honestly, every day you're getting some sort of scams coming up like, you just end up getting a big immune to it.

And I love Nigeria. Never ever class Nigeria has been dangerous. As long as you do a bit of due diligence, have confidence in your own ability, and just get on with it low profile. Nigeria is quite acceptable. You know, just do it like, you know. I'll tell you what, it's flipping difficult,

really, really difficult to operate because of the corruption. You know, everything is cash in hand. Quite bizarrely, SBM offshore sent down a compliance female. So she'd been to Monaco, she'd been up to Rotterdam, over to Malaysia, over to Houston. She then came down to Lagos and tried to give the same presentation

to the people in Lagos about how we can operate. And at the end of it, we just thought we might as well leave, because everything you just said there, We are not going to be able to operate here. And actually, two years later, we ended up packing up and going back, like, you know, a little bit quite a difficult environment to operate. You know, without crossing that line of paying, you know, cash in hand, you know, to get, you know, police escort, for instance.

You know, if you want to police escort, you need to pay cash in hand, otherwise they're not going to turn up, you know. And for SBM, that was a big no-no. No, you can't do that. Well, you know, otherwise we're not going to get a police escort then. But you also got to spend three years living the good life in Monaco. Yeah. That's a custody retirement job. Yeah.

Well, after Nigeria, I mean, the reason I was in Nigeria in the first place is when I took as head of security for Sveo offshore, you know, the headquarters are in there in Monaco. And, you know, I'm quite an active, you know, I'm not a sat around a desk type security manager. And literally, I said, listen, if you want me to be a head of security, I'll do it in Lagos, Nigeria, particularly because that's our problem told, you know, all the issues that we're having, security-wise, is all in Nigeria. So it's much easier for me to, you know, it didn't stop me flying over to Brazil, down to the office in Houston.

We used to do quite a lot of training work in Houston, active shooter. It was a big thing that we used to teach. We used to go over China, Malaysia, Singapore, all over West Africa, Angola, Ecuador, Ecuador, Guinea again, Europe. All over, it was fantastic. Myanmar, or the old Burma. So, but I was based in Nigeria, because that was our problem told, followed by Brazil

followed by Guyana because Guyana was just just opening up if that makes sense and there was quite a few issues there so off we went

and then they literally after six years they said listen make we're going to close it down you have to come back to Monaco then so reluctantly bizarrely

I ended up Monaco for three years and then the good thing about Monaco, for me, at the time, there was a lot of attacks in Europe, Brussels, Paris attacks, all that sort of stuff. From about 2013, 14, 15, there was a lot going on all around Europe. So we developed this active shooter, and it's very much based on the American, you know,

run-high fight. The British do run high self, you know, what, what, what, what, That's all about. I had no idea. So we ignore all that. So we followed the American way of Run High Fight. And it was good because we managed to get to all the officers that we had, including Houston, so that everybody, no matter what office you were in, if there was an active shooter situation, you responded in exactly the same way.

And the reason we got offered, because I went to Houston about 18 months ago, to do active shooter training. And I think they actually like the British mentality, which is very much just good on with it. Because this company run the seventh floor of a multi-story building and a security team had gone in there from the US and recommended all these fancy ballistic doors

and all that sort of stuff, which is great if you've got lots of money. but common sense is listen you don't need that so we did a lot of situation awareness training with them identified they you know toilets for instance are always inward opening doors no windows so get yourself a nice truck industrial truck bang that so toilet is actually a safe location

but you know stick a truck under the door get someone to lie on the floor with their foot on that drop so that no one's going to force a door open and you're laid down just in case someone just fire around through the door because people tend to fire through doors not down if that makes sense and you know if you study active shooting and you know active shoot better than anyone over in the States these people don't hang about because they know they're on the clock as soon as they start pulling the trigger they're on the clock and they know that so they're not going to be hanging about spending five bits trying to get into a door

when they could just move on and try and shoot other people if that makes sense. So we got quite good at doing what we do. So what we're trying to do now is get it over to the UK. But unfortunately with the UK, we've got a very negative attitude to security. It's not very proactive. Like that doesn't happen here. Yeah, well, unfortunately, we're not, we're right for a real terrorist attack over here, unfortunately,

because, you know, terrorists know, you know, there's a lot of people walking around the UK who have come off his boats, there's no due diligence done on them. You know, you've got it in the States as all, but, you know, it's even worse over here because we're a smaller country. You know, London, for instance,

you know, he's not British, you know, and we've got no idea who these people are. So if we have a major terrorist incident over here, a lot of people are going to get hurt, unfortunately. But trying to get people to understand that you need to go through active shooter. And active shooter also means, you know, people with knives as well. You know, we've got a real bad record over here with people with knives. you know, people harp on about the US with guns,

we can't talk because it's overrears knives. So, you know, so we call it, you know, a knife rampage. And it's the same as active shooter, you know, a knife, gun, same drills, you know, same mentality of dealing with it by, you know. And it's not the nicest subject to teach because ultimately, you know,

people need to be aware that to survive an active shooter situation, you may have to take another person's life if that makes sense. And that's just that's just the way it is. That's the nature of the training, I suppose. And you teach these courses with your daughter, which is very interesting. Tell us about that and about where people can go to find you guys if they want to actually get this type of training. Yeah. So when we're teaching, when we're doing personal safety, situation awareness training. I use my daughter, really,

because a lot of it is we like to get into schools and colleges to get the kids at a young age so that when they're sort of living in school, they understand, you know, the big wide ward if that makes sense. And the reason I use my daughter is she has got a great mentality. She's got three brothers who were all in the military. So she's of the same ilk as a boys,

but she's a girly, girlie. And youngsters and females specifically, they relate to, you know, what she does. So she does all the breakaway and plan B. And plan B is, you know, if that breakaway doesn't work, you know, he's out of quickly disintegrated jaw or, you know, snap an elbow

and someone's grabbing you. But we don't teach that to kids. So up until the age of 15, it's just the breakaway. because you can't teach a 15-year-old plan B because otherwise you create monsters. They'll go out and practice it on each other, you know, snapping each other's jaws and all that sort of like you.

But as you get older, you know, and things get a bit more serious, you need to be able to do that. So doing that, so we've got a website, www.hawks and A&D-co.com. And it's basically we're into farm security. That's a big thing. Because I used to break into farms in Northern Ireland, terrorist people's farms. So we actually got really good at covertly getting into the only farms, but, you know, offices and businesses and stuff like that.

And when you're covertly breaking in, it's a bit like the physical penetration testing. it's a lot harder to covertly break in it somewhere than it is to, you know, smash, smash your way into whatever like, you know. So we actually got quite good. And I live in rural Hereford. I actually live on a farm here. This is the farm cottage. And I just thought, hold on, you know, that gamekeeper, poacher gamekeeper mentality.

You know, so we can actually help the farmers over here. Because unfortunately for UK farmers, they're following. a strategy that leaves farms wide open because it's all geared towards a police recovering a recovery equipment as opposed to stopping the thefts in the first place. So the strategy that we use over here, unfortunately, it's all the farms wide open. So our philosophy is, you know, let's put an arm around the farmers and help. The farmers stop it initially. So we're quite niche in what we do.

And a lot of that is because of my background. But predominantly, it's teaching situation, personal safety situation awareness, because 90% of the UK, over 90% of the UK, have got no awareness about them whatsoever. So we need to break into that. We need to start chipping away at that figure. Because when there's an active terrorist threat,

the police automatically or the government will say, right, we need you to be more aware, more aware to a population that's night present, not aware. So that's never going to work if that makes sense. You know, if someone says be aware, you need to know what, you know, be aware means and how you go about it. And with situation awareness, you know, it's not, someone can tell you about situation awareness, but it's normally someone like yourself or myself ex-military people or ex-police who have got a lot of experience

and you've got a lot of experience and you can then pass that onto people but then you're very reliant on them practice in it and practice, practice, practice and become, until it becomes second nature. And that's when you know that you're on that. But you know, you can't just read a book and say, yeah, I'm situation-aware now, you know, because you need to go out there and continually doing it and doing it and doing it.

And the teaching is all about, you know, all the pitfalls that I went through, what didn't work, what works, you know, because you're passing on your experience, really, to a lot of other people. So, yeah, it's been tough. It's been a tough two years trying to break into a market. I haven't properly worked in two years over here. I've done the odd job, the odd school. but trying to get a contract over here.

One, because I'm old school, I'm actually quite loud on LinkedIn. I don't like imbeciles. I don't like, you know, people that are running the business, security and stuff like that, I totally disagree because they're not willing to improve. You know, but we've got a bad reputation because we've got a security organization

who are supposed to be, you know, implementing, you know, good procedures and it's not working, you know, and so is my vocal sort of, you know, is that knocking me back somewhat possibly? But, you know, they always say never ever lower your standards just because other people are that low, you know, always maintain your sort of high standards and try and pass it on. So we do penetration testing, which is all borne out of, you know, so classic one here. So penetration testing, terrorist people's houses, criminals in London, embassies,

the, Commander Milosevic, I actually did a target pack on Milotovic's compound in Belgrade on the proviso of snacking him. So all the jobs that I've done, physical penetration test. in, being captured was not an option at all. And, you know, you just get on with it. You try and go to a security company and say, listen mate, I know physical penetrates. Have you got this certificate?

No. But I can, you know, I've done this and done, you know, I've done jobs where, you know, getting captured and they'll get you killed, if that makes sense. But it just seems to be at the moment, you know, you need tick box, you need this, that, that, you need this, that, and that. And unfortunately,

experience and competency seems to be a thing in the past nowadays. You know, we're a bit of a dying breed, if that makes sense, in an environment where, you know, security's not really thought of as being a priority, sadly. Tell us about the book, Life on the Edge,

hopefully going to be out next month. I mean, I think it's largely about what we've been talking about on this interview so far. But, you know, tell us about the book and where people will be able to find it. Yeah, so the book was born out of an idea and then speaking to a lady called, God, rest of soul, really. But Nicole Johnson. And we got together, really. And the meeting, the initial meeting was all about her telling me. to push off

because she doesn't write excess air sports. But when we started talking and I said, listen, I don't want a Bravo to Zero. I just want an autobiography but highlighting all the difficult situations

that we've been in and how we've managed to resolve it and, you know, get around it by using resilience, really, and a positive mindset. From the ages of 15, you know, not get picked and play football,

okay then, I'll join the army. You know, frankly, you can't parachute. Okay, I'll be your commander. And I ended up parachuting anyway. You know, so it's having that resilience. A lot of it was all about family as well. So it's all the emotions of, you know, being a family man, being on operations and doing bad things and then coming home

and picking your kids up from school, having the night before been on a been on a, been on a, serious operation and my ex-wife was running you know because it was a great way of bringing you back down to normality you know doing that you know getting flown back by helicopter Mick go and pick the kids up yeah okay you know and that's why I you know quite a strong mentality I suppose and don't so the book's all about helping people based on our life story and the things that we went through. And we've highlighted all the, you know,

how we managed to get, you know, get where we are. So it's really about helping people that hit a brick wall in life and, you know, how to get around that brick wall by just being, you know, a bit more resilient and everything else. So that, so it's not a private zero. It's not specific on operations. It's, you know, how that managed to do. get you through some quite trying situations and stuff like that.

But because Nicole died March last year, so that put the book on the back burner somewhat because I wasn't really interested. Because we'd worked together, you spent hours and hours and hours doing recordings and getting it all written up. And it's a co-written book as opposed to a ghostwriter. and because she went through a real bad illness

and unfortunately passed away last March and then sort of around about August time she about August ready we got together with the husband and sort of chatted away and he said listen make it was one of her dying wishes ready was to get the book finished so So that then set us out on the second challenge really

is to get the book finished. So we've managed to get a new author now who knows Nicole. And she's read the book. She's happy with it. She comes from a military background, which is great as well, so she understands the mentality.

So we needed to finish, really. In December, we finished the final chapter, which is great. We've also added a memorial, page at the start of the book to honour Nicole. So the book really is not only helping people, but it's also to honour Nicole Johnson as well, if that makes sense.

And so I'd like to think that it's, you know, it's going to appeal to quite few people, certainly military people, because everybody likes an S-A-S book, you know, Greenberry book or whatever, you know, because that's what people like to read. but hopefully it'll appeal to the civilian market as well and people vulnerable people

because we've got a bit of reputation at the moment of helping people so people ring up last week a vulnerable lady from Bruges in Belgium her helper care worker got in touch of those and said make can you spend a couple of hours was, you know, doing this time, talking about how she can keep herself out of trouble and stuff like that. You know, a better situation with my personal safety stuff.

That's good. And we do that free of charge. And they, you know, kind of sent over some Belgium chocolates that I gave to my ex-wife and daughter as a thank you. Because it's the same as farmers. You know, we had a farm lost £40,000 worth of stock. they rang up and said,

Matt, can you help us out? But, you know, how much is it going to cost me? And I said, listen, you've just lost 40,000 pounds worth of stock. I'm not going to charge you money to come down and help you. I said, but I need fuel. So, you know, pay for my fuel to get down there and make me a baking sandwich when we're down there. We'll help you out like, you know.

And that's, you know, what we do. it's not the greatest business model in the world. But it's just a way, really, of helping. Yeah, but you like what you're doing. Yeah, absolutely. But, you know, it would be great if we could sort of suddenly get a contract where we're actually busy, you know, and I'm hoping that we can actually bang the door down of the farming industry because farmers really do need help.

And they need practical help, you know, practical solutions, not to, follow the website recommendations. To a non-security person, that means nothing like, you know. Mick, thank you very much for doing this interview tonight. Really appreciate it. Do we have any questions? So, Dimitri, we'll ask, some of our viewers will have some questions for you. From Mark H.

I'd love to hear about Mick's time with 14 INT. Was that part of the Force Research Unit? No, that's a totally different organisation. Force research, really, was all about developing sources. Totally different. Fourteen Inns was the meat or the bread and butter of surveillance, following bad people, and ultimately stopping terrorist attacks, if that makes sense. But force research, totally different organisation.

Mark also asks, what do you think about the news coming out about the steak knife inquiry from last year? Yeah, it's interesting. There's two sides to every story, I suppose. And I don't think the real story will ever come out, you know, because he was playing both sides, if that makes sense. And I'm very surprised at the IRA, as soon as the IRA found out, that they didn't take him out straight away. if that makes sense, but it's one of them things that's going to suck a long time before everything's been revealed. One more from Mark.

Do you have any thoughts on Ian Hurst and his accounts of his time in Northern Ireland? Sorry, sorry, question again, man. Any thoughts on Ian Hurst and his accounts of his time in Northern Ireland? Ian Hurst, not really. A lot of people have their ideas and different It's funny Someone said to me the other day, Mick,

getting in the farm industry If you was to work over in Northern Ireland Would you help a staunch Republican Catholic Farmer You know, who detested the army And the answer is yes, I would I would actually help farmers who used to be terrorists.

Why? Because I'm there to help the farmer, not his religion or his affiliation to whatever, if that makes sense. So, yeah, you know, Northern Ireland's quite a complex subject, depending on what side of the sphere you're on, you know. And, you know, everyone automatically assumes that the SSS

were all about fighting the IRA. That's not the case. the SES were after bad people and if you just so happen that the IRA were more proactive but you know boys have been after Protestants as well all righty one last one from M Corby would you mind sharing some of your tattoos the work looks really good sorry sharing some of your tattoo work

somebody in the audience said that they look really cool yeah so that it's the old school But basically I've got my life story on my arm. So I've got 26 bullet holes because I've been shot at 26 times in my military career. So basically I've got a life story going up and all down my back. But they're all, they call them old school tats, if that makes sense. Are those, are they poppies?

Yeah. There's like a World War I reference. for the Brits, right? Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, poppies and, yeah, so basically, it's funny, when I left the military, I have blood-drubed O'Pos on my arm, two eyes on my bottom, and a small little spider on here, and since I've left the military, I decided to cover, cover that, and it just grew. Tattoves are, yeah, they're very addictive. Yeah, they are.

Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah. Because my daughter's got tattoos, and I said, she wanted one when she was 18. And I said, yes, she can have a tattoo, but it has to have some sort of meaning. You know, don't go in there, just get a little fancy picture. That means nothing.

You know, get some of it that when you look at it, you know, so for me, the poppies, people died. All the roses are from my kids, four kids and stuff like that, Commando dagger, parachute. all that sort of stuff. So, you know, it means something to me. Anyone else, it means nothing. So, Mick, thank you again.

I just want to tell folks out there, please check out a friend of the show, Casa Carabaeo Cigars, provide us with Cigars, and it's a small veteran-owned business, CasaCaraBeo.com. Please go check them out. Appreciate it.

Mick, this has been awesome, man. Thank you for sharing your story with us. I hope people will go and check out your book. I want to check it out when it comes out. Life on the Edge. I think what people will be able to go find it on Amazon, Barnes & Noble and so on. Yeah, absolutely. So it's going to go hard copy and softback.

But it's also going to go out on audio as well. Great, great. And Mick, we'll put your website for your security company down in the description as well. So if anybody's in the UK or anywhere on the world, check that out. The link is in the description. Fantastic. Really much appreciate it. Thank you, Mick.

And we will see all of you guys next week. Thank you for joining us tonight. Hey, guys, it's Jack. I just want to talk to you for a moment about how you can support the show if you've been watching it, enjoying it. But you'd like to get a little bit more involved and help us continue to do this. You can check out our Patreon. It is patreon.com slash the teamhouse. and for $5 a month, you can get access to all of these episodes of the Team House ad-free.

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