The Team House - SBS (Special Boat Service) Operator 🇬🇧 | Pasha Munrow | Ep. 238

Episode Date: October 9, 2023

Pasha served in the UK Armed Forces for 26 years with the Royal Marine Commandos and with the SBS (Special Boat Service). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Today's Sponsors:The AARP Veteran Report⬇️https://aarp.org/VETREPORTFree, Twice Monthly email newsletter that salutes military service & provides a mixture of inspirational human stories and practical info for vets.https://aarp.org/VETREPORT---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------To help support the show and for all bonus content including:-AD FREE AUDIO-AD FREE VIDEO-Access to ALL bonus segments with our guestsSubscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseOr make a one time donation at: https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouseTeam House merch: ⬇️https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963Social Media: ⬇️The Team House Instagram:https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_linkThe Team House Twitter:https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePodJack’s Instagram:https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_linkJack’s Twitter:https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21Team House Discord: ⬇️https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6SubReddit: ⬇️https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSampleWant to sponsor the show?Email: ⬇️[e-mail]#sbs #specialboatservice #royalmarinecommandoBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Hey, folks, I just want to take a minute to ask you to go in rate this podcast, let the Teamhouse know how you think we're doing, go and rate us on whatever platform you're listening to this on, whether it's iTunes or Spotify or whatever else. Those ratings really help us out, and we really appreciate the feedback to let us know what you like and what you don't like. And if you do like the Team House and you'd like to support us, go check out our Patreon page and you can actually support the stream in well as get access to our. bonus segments and bonus episodes. Yeah, if you're going to give us a great review, please do. And if you're going to give us a not-so-good review, why don't you just send us an email and we'll talk about it. Special operations, covert ops, espionage, the team house with your host, Jack Murphy and David Park. Hey, everyone. Welcome to episode 238 of the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with David Park, D, back there pressing buttons.

And our guest on tonight's show is Pasha Monroe. He is a veteran of the SBS, the British Special Boat Service. And we're really pleased to have him on the show tonight. Thank you so much for being flexible with us and joining us at the late hour in your time zone, Pasha. We appreciate it. Fantastic. I'm glad to be here. So, man, we'll jump right into it if it's cool with you. And I'd love to start, you know, with your origin story and sort of your upbringing and how that path took you towards the British military.

So obviously, well, I'm 50 years old, so early 1970s. And that was pretty much the time in northern England when the eastern kind of people started to come over to do industrial work. So that was my real father. So met a local lady and yes I came out and pretty much in obviously I didn't know at the time

I was one of the new kind of babies from that era if you see what I mean. Your father was South Asian? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So he came to the Stunthorpe's it's industrial so that's what

came over here to do and I guess and and quite a lot of them came over from to to the north of England to to get some work and and so young young Pasha comes about and where are you living what's your your family life like so um what I can remember um so I was probably five years old my first record well there's a few little memories but The big memory, what that's what I actually concluded a couple of years ago and was backed up, that my mother and father kind of separated. And it was, he wanted to take me away with him. He put me in the back of his boot and drove me to Heathrow.

And his intentions was to take me back to his homeland as it were. thankfully when we actually got to Heathrow I don't know I don't really know how but the police got him and he was on his way and I was sent back to mum and that was the last time I actually saw him wow yeah so I always have a joke about it you know if he actually got me

over there I could have been on the wrong side you know what I mean I could have been on my flip flops chasing you guys you were destined for greatness either way absolutely you know it's bizarre you know it's a funny thing but

realistically there's something in the blood that I was going to be where out my direction was going to go anyway it didn't really matter what country I was going to be in I think I was deemed to go down that path anyway were you drawn to the military at a young age were you a scrapper were you an introvert like what

What were you like as a kid? So, yeah again, because I was half-cast Asian. And to grow up in that era, I was kind of bullied a bit because I was small and it was kind of small and it was different. So, yeah, I was kind of bullied. But it didn't really matter because I liked to hang around with the cool guys. Right. And they kind of looked after me a little bit.

And that's how that's pretty much how my schooling went. But I wasn't very academic. I was good at sports. So I was always running around, trying to play football, enjoyed it. But no, no, I wasn't academic. But the reason I did enjoy school was the friendship, the getting the people, the team, the trend. tribe as it was it as it were well i didn't know it it was the tribe then you just right you just get

drawn into you get drawn into it and and you kind of want to be with your buddies yeah yeah so your buddies hazed you basically it sounds like and then i like what would they like did you run with a rough crowd would like what was the sort of neighborhood and the environment like in in those the 70s and 80s like growing up well we was just on the streets all right so night running around causing, you know, being, being little demons, as it were, you know, causing, it was causing trouble, but it wasn't particularly, it wasn't nasty, not like nowadays, the trouble the kids are getting onto nowadays where you're hurting people, things like that. Yeah.

It's trouble like knocking on doors and running and running through backyards and getting chased and things, you know, right? And it's kind of, obviously, it's, it's, you think it's fun, but you are pissing people off, but you're not hurting anybody or, you're not, you know, potentially, damning yeah damaging anything right or making people pay for things you know right so when did you first start thinking about the military well I was 12 and a couple of my friends started going to the cadets so I was like right I'm going to have a go with that so we went to the cadets but some of my friends was in the marine cadets and some of them was in the sea cadets so I think at

the time there was more people in the sea cadets so I went into the sea cadets which I it was it was pretty cool I mean we're still in the marine it was still in the same unit you could still see the marine cuts but I enjoyed well where I live isn't an extra any water so whenever we used to do the boating part we have to go down to a canal so we'd go down to the canal you know there'd be a little boat where we'd be doing the pulling and I'd be the coxom because I'm yet again I'm I was the smallest guy and I'm loving it. I'm just sitting watching everyone blowing out their asses,

you know, and I'm just staring the thing and telling them to hurry up. Yeah. So I enjoyed being in the water and doing a, doing a bit of, and I enjoyed the canoeing as well. I was kind of like a district champion, as it were, at my age, on the canoeing. So yeah, it was really, it was really fun and I, yeah, I enjoyed it. And being away at the weekends, you know, hanging around with the guys eating rubbish food, food as it were and at night causing agro hassle with the instructor like jumping in the

water you know just just being boys at the end of the day yeah getting away from getting away from the family life and i think the society today it doesn't seem to do that anymore everyone's in the house everyone's in yeah on the on the on the on the export because etc etc so i think our generation it's completely different you have to you could be out all night having fun no one was kind of worried Right. As long as you was in, as long as you was in for your meal because it was expensive to, you know, to eat then. As long as you ate that and you went out again and you came back in when the lights were going on the school. Sorry, the street lights, everyone was fine.

Yeah. So what was, because we had Robin on last week and I don't know if it was the cadets because he went into a school program that was like the last few years of school. Is that what the cadets was or was that more like an ROTC program that you were in? That's the sideline. It's like the scouts kind of thing. Okay. It's just, yeah, it does prepare you because it gives you an insight of what is out there. And they do a kind of syllabus to go through that as well.

So it does align you if you want to go down that direction. However, after a couple of years, being in the Sea cadets, I saw the guys in the, the Marine cadets and I quite liked that as well so I asked the commanding officer at the time and he's like that we're keeping you're staying in the sea connect so I actually stayed in there until 15 16 years old uh-huh so your heart though kind of at that time like you were happy being a coxon on on a on a champion boat but you also wanted to go rough it with the Marines yeah yeah yeah yeah because I quite like to you know in the bushes you know camming themselves up and walking around with these rifles because they look pretty hard you know yeah and and they

was doing well it sounds a bit weird that was doing a bit more manly things yeah right because we had girls in our bit in the sea cadets we wasn't as robust as potentially the marine guys they was out you know jumping off bridges into the water we weren't jumping off the bridges we might be just jumping in you know what i mean walking down the bank into the water yeah So how did you end up in the military then? And why didn't you go into the Marines? Oh, so coming up to my 16th birthday, obviously the last year within the school,

I actually applied to go into the Royal Navy quite. And I did it more than, sorry, earlier than everybody else. So I actually wanted to do it. I wanted to kind of get in there first. So I went to my local careers office, said I wanted to join the Navy. And I remember the guy's name, he was a chief petty officer, BB. That was his name. And it just says to me, no, come back in six months.

And he didn't actually give me a reason. So I was, you know, obviously upset and went away. And then as I was leaving, I saw that the, I saw a guy come in to do, to do his, to ask about the Marine, sorry, the Royal Marines. And then he started doing some pull-ups, because you have to do, I don't know, 15 pull-ups in front of them, just to show him you was kind of fit enough. And then I saw a post and I thought, right,

I think I'm going to go for the Marines here, because you've not given me a good enough reason why you're not wanting me to go in the Navy. I want to go for the Marines. So I went away and I thought about it, and I was like, yeah, I'm going to do this. But I didn't actually know what I was getting, I know it was going to be a lot tougher, but I didn't know the actual field craft part of it.

So all what I did for the first couple of years, I had a break then. I didn't actually join up until I was 19. So in the first couple of years after leaving school, I was just, I got a proper job, 9 to 5 kind of thing. But I'd get up in the morning, do a 5, 6, 7, 8 mile run before work, come back after work and then do me press ups, my sit-ups and think of me pull-ups. And I did that all the time. And trying to learn, oh, sorry, not to learn.

I knew I may have a problem because I was little. I was always kind of petite. And obviously, you don't get any, your size and your weight doesn't matter. You're still going to carry whatever you're going to get. So my idea was I was going to be. buy the biggest Bergen and put everything in it and just walk. And that's what I did. I mean, I was walking around streets like a nutter with a big Bergen on my back,

which is probably bigger than me. And just to try and make my body absorb the pain and get used to it, really. And I did that for quite some time because I knew, yeah, it'd be too, well, it'd be tough. I want to ask, you know, your height and weight, but I know you're going to give us your weight and stone and your height and meters and none of us are going to know what that means oh i've got google up you got google up all right all right let's hear it pasha well i am actually now 72 kilos but when i joined i was 52 uh so you're 158 now and when you joined uh you're 114 oh wow yeah yeah yeah that too bad they didn't need tunnel rats like i mean that's no but like in vietnam like

you know yeah tough job yeah so you put you put you had to put some weight on when you got into the military well my metabolism doesn't it just goes up it it doesn't let me it doesn't let and i'm 50 now and i can and i still flipping it looks like i've got you know i've been snorting something sometimes because but they're still it's still there it's not it's slowed down a bit but if i have a can of coat now oh that's me i'm i'm i'll be flipping bouncing around you're 50 and you still can't put on weight you know that's you know that's quite a humble brag at this point right it it is but um no i'm kidding yeah at this age to be lean it's pretty cool yeah yeah that was great uh and then so what like what was your plan were you were you set on the marines were you

thinking about the navy so once once the navy's door was shut i wasn't going back So then I was right, I'm going in the Marines. I'm going to make it work. But the reason why it took me a bit longer from age 16 to 19 was during my upbringing as well. My mother, bless her soul, she's not here now, but when she met a guy, she'd change our names. It's our surnames. So some bizarre reason. So I had a few steps of names.

if you see on my name had changed a few times but she it wasn't legal so she's just kind kind of change it so when i went to join up there's like that you're not that's not actually your name you've got to prove that it's your name so i had to go through the system to go through them steps to make sure well to make it legal so yeah it took me quite some time really so then you did go you i didn't know you could go to the sbs from the marines so No, no. Oh, yeah, sorry. Yeah, I went in the Royal Roam rooms first. So, okay, so, okay. So let's talk about that. What was the thing like for you? So I joined when I was 19 and yes, it was a kicking the, kicking the ball.

It was a time. Yeah. Yes, yeah. The fitness, absolutely fine. The, you know, the administration, absolutely fine. But the field stuff. That's what I, that's what that was a shock to me. I mean, in the first few weeks, you're in the field, under your ponchos, doing, trying to sort yourself out. And that, that was a complete shock to me. And I, cause I didn't really, I didn't prepare myself at all on that part. My mind was mostly get your body, get your body, get your fitness.

Because right, that's, that's, that's what it says. You gotta be, you know, really fit to, to be quote, a raw marine at the time. Oh, well, it's still really. really. So yeah, when I joined, that that was a real struggle for me. And remembering now, what I used to do is when obviously the instructor showed you something, you're meant to obviously get a grips of it. But I wouldn't learn that as quick as other people. So I'd be watching the other guys do it and then learn from them rather than the instructor. So I was always a step behind. But I never, I never kind of realized that at the time for a long time,

you know, because you don't, you, you just got your head on what you're comfortable with and what you can actually get away with and without anyone knowing. Right, right, right. How long is the Royal Marine boot camp? And when you went in, did you enlist with a job in mind? No. So when, when, when I just wanted to be a Royal Marine boot camp. And when, when, when, I just wanted to be a Royal Marine boot camp. Marine. General general duty is running up the line shooting that that that that was it. I was 19 at the time. And on the aspects of when I was growing up, it was something and I needed to do because if I stayed in my home in my hometown, I would probably got in the trouble. I was that kind of guy. I was I was hyper and if someone told me to, you know,

let's go and do something that's not really. against, you know, it's against the life you do that kind of thing, but it's fun and we'll kind of leg it and get out of it. I'd probably do that and get in the shit. Yeah. Yeah. And being in a small town, everyone kind of knows you anyway, so you're not really

hiding or you're not going to get away with it. Yeah. And the, I believe the Royal Marines are sort of famous for having the longest infantry basic training in the world. Like, it's quite hardcore. It was 30 weeks at the time. I think it's

gone up to 34 weeks now. Wow. Yes, 30 weeks. Yeah. So I was quite lucky. I joined in the December. In the first two weeks, you're kind of in a big block where you're just learning how to iron, get thrown in the mud and make sure your uniform is ready by the next morning. We've been washing kind of thing. So going through that process for two weeks, I was quite lucky that I had two weeks Christmas leaf straight away. So I had quite a good break. And then obviously went back after Christmas leave, straight back into it, which in the UK, in it down south, the weather is absolutely freezing wet. So you're not you're not battling what the syllabus is. You're battling the actual elements as well.

Right. And I mean, at some point they must figure out like, I don't know what the term is in the British military. In the United States, we call it like a military occupational special. tier like what your job is like were you um throwing like did eventually become an infantryman a mortarman a commo guy medic like what when did that come about for you so i passed passed my training and just before just before the end of it it was i think at the at certain times when people are um passing the training i'm guessing at that particular times within the marines there's there's downfalls of particular specialities or trades and and it was mortars so I went and I went to be a

mortman straight into a commando unit which yet again was completely a kick in the balls because in the Marines you have to done some quite some time to be in mortars it wasn't you shouldn't ever go from training to mortars because it's kind of an old an old sweat kind of thing you've done time in the unit first so I I turns up and that's my first job. So people in the troop was like, what you're doing here kind of thing? You're a new boy.

And how did you respond to that? I mean, I was still small as I should have to take it. And everyone was, everyone's bigger than me anyway. And I was, it was my first commando unit. And that's what I'd just done for 30 odd weeks to prepare myself for.

So it was just, just take it. and do whatever they sell me to do, and go and go to the shops for them, go and do whatever they want me to do. Just let me in. That's pretty cool. So how long did you spend in the Royal Marines?

So I did 14 years. I was a Mortiman for, I think, about 12, no, just over 10 years. I was a motor fire controller at the end, up the front, you know, with the company commanders, you know, bringing, bringing, Dan in direct fire. And then I got in trouble a few times, drinking. And I was before that I got because yet again I'm small, there's not many small people in the unit. So I was kind of aimed to do some boxing to help the unit. So I was, I did quite a better boxing. And then I

became a unit champion within my weight. Because realistically, there's not many people at my weight anyway so it wasn't that bad I didn't have that many bouts and then I went down to the marines and then the Royal Navy and then I won the Royal Navy so at the time I had my little claim to fame I had the fastest hands in the Royal Navy so I was quite chuffed with that and then I they actually kept me on the Royal Navy team for a year so I was actually a professional sportsman as it was because I was doing three three fitness sessions a day and yeah you know getting the best getting the best food and i did that for a year it's awesome and the and the and the and the fight now and they yeah and it wasn't that regular because yet again i was i was only between

57 and uh 60 kilos yeah so there's there's not that many people and and i and i got quite ranked because you realistically because there's not that many people at that level so at that weight and i i mean i'm i'm assuming all of this is sort of before 9-11 and all the wars and everything yes it was the 90s yeah so so you uh you must have gotten like some pretty cool like training exercises to go into like central america or south east asia oh yeah i went to police for six months that's awesome that that that was cool i mean that was one of my first deployments as it were it was a deployment at the time i don't understand why it we never got a medal for it but the the the guatemalan was coming over and shooting and licking all the

Knicking all the cows or the cattle and stuff like that. So he was actually patrolling looking for them. Not that I ever got in any contact out there, but it was good fun and that jungle is pretty pretty cool. If I recall correctly the flag, like the official map of Guatemala includes the country of Belize in it. That causes a little bit of tension there. Absolutely. But it was great. I did six months and then obviously you get your R and R in there. So you're off to Honduras, you're off to Cancun. You're having some pretty, there's some cool places in that area. Yeah.

Yeah. And at that age as well. Yeah, right. Did you guys also, did the Royal Marines also do patrols in Northern Ireland? Yes, I did, I did three. So I went there three time for three, six-month tours. I didn't actually get in any kind of fire contacts out there. It was kind of, it wasn't dying down, but it was, it was dirty for the fact it was more of

IEDs, bombs, etc, etc. It wasn't actual, yeah, contacts. We never got in a firefight as it were. It was just a matter of trying to walk around and not be blown up. Yeah. Do you want to? Yeah. Please forgive us real quick.

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I think anybody can be a member. But anyway, yeah, so check out our friends, because Justin Sapp has written for him also. Check out our friends at 8. AARP.org slash vet report and subscribe to AARP Veteran Report. Thanks. So Pasha, I mean, you had a really good run in the Royal Marines. Talk to us about sort of like when the idea of trying out for the SBS like comes into your mind. Like where does that come from?

It was quite early in the 90s because I was in Mortar Troop and I was high, interactive, you know, and the mortars are kind of an older guy. So I'm obviously a young guy and bouncing around and that. And they're saying to me, you know, I think you could go down that direction, etc. You know, go down the SPS route. And I didn't have a clue really what, what it was all about. I just knew it was special forces. And then in 1997, I actually went to do the selection um unfortunately i failed i wasn't good enough and putting it down what i put it down to was i wasn't good you did four weeks on on the mountains as it as it were on the hills and i couldn't a lot of people turn up on day one a little bit overweight because you're

going to lose that kind of weight throughout and then try and peek at the end so you're getting and all the timings. But I can't put weight on anyway. It's not a reason for me to say I was failing. But once I was getting towards the test at the end, I was like that. Right. And to be honest, hands up, my navigation at that time wasn't as good as it should have been. So that and the energy, it didn't work.

And I was absolutely good because I did for a few years, you know, planned that that was the route. So I came back back to the unit and then the selection process is twice a year. I went back when the next opportunity was and I did exactly the same. Absolutely. And I failed it. So in the UK, you only get two chances. Yeah. And that was me. And that's why I kind of started to get into trouble because I started to drink. a couple years previously I was a boxing champion so drinking and boxing

really didn't go well and a bit of an attitude so I ended up going to the military prison a few times just to just to get it out of my system as it as you know and I actually think

looking back I'm not saying everyone should do that kind of route but I think it made me a stronger person to be honest yeah you know all these particular little failures and hands up I've done quite a lot of little failures or big failures as it were and but I've always wanted to go to the position and I've always got to them positions and if it's like

and I always call it a pinball and I'm all over the plumbing joint but I know where I want to be and I'll get it get there and then obviously the frustrating bit is you look at someone opposite to you and they're just rolling straight up the line right and they are they're always getting but I think I think I I think it's a you get a better person, you know, and that's just from me. Obviously, I've been through that. I can't, I can't say for the person who's walked straight up the middle of the smoke. Right. But I think I've got more experience and more, yeah, more experience.

And I've had failure. So I think it's made me a better person. Oh, yeah, a better person. So when you were going, first off, what was the, the British military like at that point in time where if you went to prison or you had like judicial punishments obviously it didn't ruin your career because you you still had an amazing career after that so were those types of things just seen as well you did your time now put your head you know screw your head back on yeah and get back out there I mean the first the first

time I came back out and kind of did it again so I went back and and and did phase two, as it were. And then I thought, I thought I was going to lead them because I was kind of in the roller coaster of getting in the shit and it was a bit of a cloud. I didn't have a direction. I just, I was just upset. Obviously, I failed of the opportunity of being SF.

And I didn't, I didn't think there's any, there was any point of me staying in the military, to be honest. Yeah. And that's, and I took it out on, everyone everyone and myself and i didn't i didn't think there was another opportunity and how long were these stints were they like weekenders or were you doing hard time no so one was that was the first one was 21 days and the second one was 27 days so it wasn't it wasn't but but before to get to that position you're like you're in the ship for six

months and waiting for that waiting for that kind of trial to go go to jail so you've wasted quite a lot of time and before that so before one of my second incident I was like working in the office as mess as like a barman so I wasn't even a soldier I was just like a slave yeah just because I was in the shit and they wanted to look they wanted to see they just I don't know if they wanted to just humiliate me or something they just didn't want me on with the rest of the guys because I was a I was being a dick, I guess. Yeah. You know, I'm curious because, you know, if we can roll back to your time in the mortars real quick,

like you go in, you're 57 kilos, nine stones, 125 pounds, and somebody sent you to the mortars. Did you piss somebody off? But thinking about when I first got there, mate, I did straight, went straight into an exercise. I was in Scotland, but we went on the Scottish mountains. Yeah. And they gave me a barrel. So my first thing was a barrel, an 81 millimeter barrel, which is nearly the size of me. You know, I didn't even know how to strap it to my burger.

And people had to put it on and strap it to me. And then I had to get two people that side to me to put it on me because I couldn't even lift it anyway. Yeah, just for people who, you know, our civilians might not know, like infantry generally carries a lot of shit when they go out to the field. If you're on a mortar team, you're carrying all your shit. everybody else is carrying and you got the mortar the barrel the barrel the base plate and all the ammunition so nobody's getting off easy yeah in addition to all your other stuff yeah being in mortars is rough yeah yeah um so i i'm really curious about the the punishment because i don't know if the military was like that i was i was a model student uh when i said no i just never got caught but i know

that it's it's a lot more strict now here i don't know if it is there but you know it's it's So at no point you were ever really at risk getting kicked out for your infractions. It's just like, go do your time. Only because my, I was just fighting. It wasn't, it wasn't over the top fighting. It was just being a dick on the pit, drinking. It wasn't, I wasn't like knifeing, glassing. It was just a quick fight or just.

Punch up at the bar. Yeah. Yeah. That's all it was. It wasn't, I'm not saying that's all it was. but it wasn't anything, you know, grievous or I wasn't using anything. And that was it. That was cut then.

The fight had finished. And then, you know, you're off home and or you're going to get a takeaway together. I haven't heard the term glassing for years. Yeah. I'm glad I'm not like rolling bars, rolling out in bars anymore. So, I mean, this is, so you had this interesting experience, I mean, of in and out of military, prison a few times and then selection a few times. And twice, you were at your limit.

Right, right. as you knew. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so how did this come about? So after the second, um, prison time, I was like, right. I actually want to stay now. I need to, I need to book my ideas up. Um, and then I went to Northern Ireland. That was my, my last Northern Island trip. And I'd already, I'd already done two. And it was quite boring. All we was doing is walking around making sure everything was okay. There was no, there was no kind of soul. you're in as it were. It was just, you're just policing more. Right. Right. Really. And I thought to myself, how can I actually get out of this? And,

and I put in for the mountain leaders, the Royal Marines mountain leaders. So I went off and did that. I left Ireland, had a couple of weeks off and then I went and did that, which that is probably what that was in my mind harder than special 40 selection. So that's, that was starting August and you're finishing March. Wow. So that's like advanced like mountain field craft, I take it. Yeah, yeah. It's a lot of mountain climbing as it were. And finishing off with like you're on the run for 10 days on an island. And then from January to March, you're in Norway doing cold weather, survival techniques, skiing, obviously, and maneuver.

So you was then the instructor when we went to Norway to keep because the Royal Marines have the cold weather element to look after the northern flank as it were from the Russians coming down. So one of the jobs would be obviously to take the guys out there to make sure they can sustain themselves and work in their environments up to minus 30 potentially. So does the mountain leader course, does it put you in a special unit, like a mountain unit, or do you go back to your unit and you're the subject matter expert? At the time, so your first job would be back to your unit to be in the recon as a great, or go into one of the companies to look after or to advise the company commander if they're on mountainous operations, on how to get there, how, you know, what equipment, etc., etc. Get the troops to 8 from A to B in mountainous areas.

But after that, then, you would go to a particular brigade, kind of, where all the MLs would go to. So they'd be up front before the Royal Marines turned up and they'd secure everything and do the Recky, the recon, for the Royal Marines, as it were. And what were your, you know, because you mentioned like during your, during your selections, you know, you look, I mean, nutrition wasn't the same back then. Like, you know, obviously you couldn't feed yourself enough carbohydrates. You're, you know, running out of that stuff. Did, was there a different, like, sort of schedule for eating? Did you guys have, like, the high calorie winter rations?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You have all the high stuff. And you just completely get given every, all the kind of thing. There's there's no holding back on that because especially in the Norway, on our final exercise, I think it was 10 days and we covered something like

180 kilometers. Wow. So you carry in all that during the day. You're sleeping during the day, up all night, skiing to wherever, probably take out a position and then you're on the run, you know. So yeah, it's quite, it's quite tough. And in the environment, you can't, well, you're burning. calories constantly and it's not as if you've got one flask to get you from from the

beginning of the ski to the end because it's not as if you can fill fill it get any water or anything so that that's it until you can bivy up for the rest of the day so 180 kilometers is 11 miles and how many days do you have we'd have about 10 days on that yeah in a mountain environment yeah a mile right right right exactly exactly yeah and you're not sleeping well like not yeah that's amazing yeah and obviously during we did it during the night and then during the day you've got to do your own centuries because right right you're playing the tactical people are potentially following you up and following your skis and your marks etc so you're not really relaxing but when you are you are in

that tent you you you're your it's your your husbandry you've got to eat like hell yeah and and try and get as much rest as you can and and keep warm yeah Do they focus a lot on tactics in that school, or was it mostly the technical expertise to operate in that kind of environment? It was mostly mostly the technical, because you should have a pretty good idea of your tactics anyway by then. I mean, there was a bit of smoothing over and a few different options to be taught, but it was mostly how you get from A to be in this environment with all that kit to, i.e., look at it. at a look at a target or take a target down or or prepare the rest of the world to come and flip and smash it yeah that's wild so how did how did the sbs come back into the picture after yeah seemingly this door has kind of been shut to you yeah absolutely so i i went back to my

unit as as the mountain leader and i did about a year and i was i was promoted to to a sergeant and I was enjoying it, but I was kind of more of an instructor and I was more looking after everybody or making, you know, just just just looking after it. It wasn't, I wasn't getting any benefit. Well, I was, but I wasn't, I wasn't getting the soldiering out of it. And I kind of wanted to do, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's what I, that's what I wanted. That's what I was urging back. So completely necky, I, I, I wrote to the selection. the SF selection commanding officer, as it were. And I said, look, I'm a Royal Marines mountain leader. I did selection X amount years ago. Please, could you give me another go? And he actually said yes. Wow. That's awesome.

Yeah. And that's what I tell to people as well. You know, sometimes when guys say, oh, my sergeant major says, I can't do this or something like that, it's your career. You, it's your life. If people are saying no, you do, you go around. them you know you might piss that you might you might piss that one personal right but it's your career right and if you want that drive and if you want it you will get it yeah is the SAS and the SBS do they run the same

selection yes so it's completely the same oh wow okay I didn't know that so you're at the Breck and Beacons and all of that yeah yeah so it's it's exactly the same when the when the chief of all the the the the the commanding officer of the selection said I could go. I actually have to write back to him and say, oh, by the way, I'm too old because I was 33. And the cutoff was 32. Okay.

And he got back to me and said, you necky little shit. You're not the grey man now. So I know who you are. You've got to do that. You're having no more, this is it. So I'm right. So I turned up on day one thinking, oh, shit, everyone's look. They're not looking at me.

I'm thinking you actually know who I am. I meant to be the gray man at the back hiding. So you don't know my name guy, but they did. But yeah, it was fine. Was there anything you did differently to train up for this particular selection? Yes, this one, I didn't really do any fitness beforehand. I was like, it's in my mind. I know what I need to do.

And I know from experience, if you turn up fit, you're not going to get to the end in a good state. Yeah. And that's what I did before Christmas, because I started in the January, before the Christmas, I just ate as much as I could. Yeah. And did no fitness and just relaxed. And it put me in a great position that I just, I was a lot better focus.

My navigation was better because I did the Royal Marines Mountain leader course. that was a massive help and I knew how my body worked I think a lot of these kind of courses you need to know what your body is all about because it might be in your mind but your body your body takes over your body's got to get you through it so you need to understand what your body can take and what your weak what you what your personal weak points are and my mind was on the first 10 years prior was don't turn up, fit, eager, hyper. You need to be a bit of a slog

when you first turn up. So at the end, you're peaking and you're getting in the times and you're in good order at the end of it. Yeah, we've talked about this before on the show and we had David Walton on the show because he is kind of right. He has this guide for helping people prepare for special forces selection here.

And one thing is we've talked about is a lot of people over-trained. They hit their peak. They hit their physical peak right when they get to whatever selection they're going to. And then it's all downhill because you're not getting in shape.

Like it's all down. Yeah. So it's like you said, do you, do you, did you have a sense that you had over-trained for your first two? Or was it just kind of more inexperienced

and i think it was a bit of both okay i think it was a bit of both um and it's the eagerness to to to want to do it and you like that you just put the handbrake on right they're they're gonna get they're going to get you to right if you do everything they want you to but you don't look at it that way right everything everything that they've put in place is slow slowly building you up to get to the to the end part and you we don't we don't think that you don't you don't turn up like that idea you want to be the best on day one but but but it's the it's about space right you need you need to slowly you need to build your fitness with what they're giving you so that at the end you're you're you're ready to take on the test that they want you to and so you're you're a little bit older and

wiser of course by but but that also puts you in the position of being the unicorn that you've you're on your third shot and you're 33 years old a year over the limit a double unicorn So you get to the end of selection. I mean, obviously you did pretty good on the course. Is there like a board at the end where they question you and kind of interview you for the job? Well, you finish the jungle part and then you come back. And that's, I think a lot of people do fail on that part. So you don't know until you come back to the UK if you've passed.

And you're all lined up ready, ready to be told if you passed or fail. And I actually went in and the chief instructor said to me, there was a guy in my team who he said, do you like this guy? And I goes, yeah. And he goes, you kind of had a bit of confrontation with him. Because yet again, when you're in the jungle, you don't realize they're hiding behind the tree watching you as well.

Do you know what I mean? You're too tired to think that they're actually, oh, they've got MVGs on in the middle of the night watching what you're up to. You know what I mean? But yeah, I said, look, there wasn't a. problem and it was just i think it was just a bit of personality that that that's all it was and i actually thought it was going to fail me on that and he says all right you've passed and i think it was because looking back i think it was because i was because i was truthful to him you know i didn't

i didn't i didn't say anything that i tried to cover up or anything so yeah it was just we just didn't get on now and then and you know it's it's just the personality thing it's and it's also that matter that like when people are like tired and hungry it all comes out and under stress like you're We're going to, everybody gets bitchy, you know. And the thing is, is that do you, do you let that continue afterwards or does everybody just go, I was just pissed in that moment. Yeah. And that's very hard for some people because especially in that environment.

So if, if you've potentially had a bad day and you're back at your bivis and you're administering yourself and feeding yourself, et cetera, if you start pondering then, you're, your, your night's shit. Yeah. You've got to get, you've got to get rid of that. That's, that's, that's, that's finished. If you've fucked up, you've fucked up. Yeah.

Just take, take it. Tomorrow's another day and, and, and just be better tomorrow. Simple as that. Just try not to fuck up again tomorrow. But, but don't, don't, don't sleep, lay on your hammock all night, worry because you're not going to, you're not going to wake up or start tomorrow in a good place anyway. So you, you passed selection. And I have two questions for you.

I guess the first one is, what is the SBS for some of the viewers out there who really don't know and then the second is what was your training like to get into the unit so if we started at the beginning maybe for the for the American audience that has no idea what the SBS is if you could tell us like what what this unit is to begin with so so the SBS is kind well it's seal team six it's Britain's Britain's seal unit yeah it's not I mean the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the US have so many SEAL teams, but obviously the SEAL team six is the dogs. So we're kind of marrying on them. And obviously the SAS is the SAS. So we do exactly the same as the SAS, but we've got the maritime part as well. So for instance, if we was going, if there was an operation on land, then we could do that. We're trained to do that anyway.

So it's not as if the maritime takes over. Right. We have to do both. Right. So you're saying you're better than the SAS. It's no big deal. It's the best answer ever. When you're going, because SBS and SAS go to the same, it's the same course, it's special forces.

Yeah. Do you know if you're going to the SBS or the SAS when you are in the selection? Can they make changes, you know? You can change. Okay. You can change. So some people, some people do change when they're going through it. But it's not, it's not very often.

But you'll have your own mind which unit you want to go to anyway. But I mean, they're not going to direct you though. Well, they know. Okay. No. I mean, I mean, some of the DS might, you know, try and, you know, they'll like that particular student. So they might try and egg him on to go into their, into the, their unit. But not really.

It's up to you. It's your choice. For instance, the essay is, I mean, for a potential essay has to go to the SBS, he might not even like the water. He might not like that, that'd be tough for him to actually do. That was going to be my next question, though, because water is a whole different animal, right?

Water is, honestly, it's sort of one, it's like the great divider a lot of times. Some people just aren't comfortable in it. You know, and people can be studs perfectly fit and everything else like that. But the cold, the water just takes it out of them. Or maybe they're not great swimmers. For the SBS, was there any type of maritime or diving or water-based selection during the actual SF selection? No.

I mean, the only thing you do is before you go to the jungle, you'll have a swimming test. But with all your kit on, just so that if you're in the gym, jungle there's so much water if you're falling in there you're actually the confident that you actually can get out and swim out but but there's there's no different so if there's no i'm sorry so if if a guy is slotted for the sbs and he gets there and realizes that he gets claustrophobic in a rig or something else like that is he welcome to go to the s as yes yeah absolutely it's the same it's the same umbrella that's really interesting i mean imagine if like steel team six and delta force had the same selection course and then they like branched off.

Yeah. There's been like, this is like bar room talk, not not official, but I mean, people have talked like, what if all of our soft units had the same selection course and then they branched off from there? Right. It would be, it would be interesting. I don't know if it's the right way or the, like, is the British model the right way? And I don't know.

But the thing is, it's interesting because, you know, like, you know, you have CQB, you have shooters. You have, like, the tactical skills. Then you have, you know, guys that can. ruck and swim, whether they're great at both, but they can do both. Then you guys have guys that are amazing at swimming but not great at rucking. And you have guys that are great at rucking and can like haul ass but aren't great at swimming. So it's just kind of this weird.

The water aspect that the Marines and the Navy have, I think, is one of the big separators. Yeah. Yeah. So how does that work for you then? For the SBS, is there an additional selection or then is it just, so there is. is. But it's not selection. It's just different courses that's all. Once they finish, they'll just go and do different courses before the actual, before they go and do their job. So do you, do you guys do this same sort of, uh, like counterterrorism? Like, do you still train with

the SAS for a core part of it? Yeah. Okay. So, so if, on the, on the counterterrorism part, you'd go and do both units to do that to get to, to get, to, on the, the same time not the same time but but but to get ready for okay particular um time so they're both doing the same roles could you take us through the a little bit about like how that works from after you pass selection what the sbs like training pipeline is um well that you you get taught out to dive and then you do a bit of maritime stuff so you are you do get you will get badge the same time so you will get your berries etc and then you're kind of in but then the sbs guys will go do them particular courses before the actual join their squadrons and so you're learning like are you

learning rebreathers closed circuit systems uh it's all die yeah all the diving equipment all the different um sets all the different sets and obviously all the above water equipment as well i.e different kind of boats and and ways of getting in or getting out so you're already in as sparrant coxon though so you're you can tell the guy not like that i can be a viking yeah yeah did you have any diving experience in the cadets did they since you were in the navy cadets did you guys do anything like that no but um when i was in the marines i did my paddy course so i okay i was i was all right underwater um i didn't but particularly when I joined the SBS I wasn't focused on being a diver I know it's

obviously part of it but it wasn't my be all and end on it it was a a little trade within within within within the role as it were right it's a way to get to work right yeah yeah yeah it's another it's another tick in the box it's another skill we've got yeah yeah was there ever a time that you thought that like the SBS wasn't for like in the train that the SBWS wasn't for you that you'd rather go to the SAS? No, no. I think it's because I've done so long as a Marine as well. So most people go go down that line.

I mean, it doesn't matter. But I felt there was more of my tribe going that direction rather than going the other. And, you know, I mean, I mean, There's nothing in my mind to say I like them better than that. It's just I my guys will go more of my guys are going that way. Right. Now, how does that work service wise? You were a Royal Marine, but the SBS is Navy.

The SAS is Army, correct? So how do they work the paperwork when you're, once you've passed election? Well, I'm still kind of in the Navy. Okay. Right. Yeah. The Department of the Navy. If you would have gone to the SAS, would they have had to switch your service or would they have just, you would have been.

I'd go in the, yeah, I'd go in the army. Okay. It's really interesting. Yeah, it is. It's an interesting system. And obviously it works for you guys. It's a smart system. Yeah.

So you, and then you mentioned there's a counterterrorism portion of, or a direct action portion of the training that you guys did with the SAS. How did that go? Well, that's good. because when you're doing that kind of work you're still with the SAS guys so you're all doing the same kind of skills so what if if something real happened and you was all on that line you can work well know right what what drills and what each other's going to do I mean you might not see each other for a for a couple of years etc but once you get together you know you know what's going to happen

who's going to not or where that body's going to go etc etc so it's a great great way because you're going to end up being together at some point and if you don't do them skills don't do them drills together and practice them drills together then it might things might not go right yeah that's that's really interesting too that's another interesting point so so what was like what was your favorite part about the training if you had a favorite part like was there a time when you were just like i can't believe i'm actually doing this is amazing oh Yeah, the actual CQB, that's, I mean, we didn't really do that in the Marines. Right. It wasn't, it. So in the Marines, you kind of obviously at a distance, you're not really

squad online. And being a, yeah, yeah, by the time you get up there, it's just a flipping, I can see him kind of 200 meters away. But, but going through the doors or going, you know, in compounds and you know, running around little rattles, etc. It's in your face and, and, and trying a, you know, the buzz of standing on the doorway and smashing the door down, you know, it's, it's, it's exciting. Yeah. What kind of weapon systems were you guys using generally? Well, there's, there's all, you, you, I don't want to get you in, like, in any trouble.

No, no, no, no. Yeah. You do get a choice and it's, it's personal choice. Yeah. Is there anything that you particularly liked? I, I, um, it doesn't bother me as long as it's, it fires a bullet i get excited about gun shoot and good right absolutely yeah absolutely i can't stand still i'm doing i'm standing on you know hyperactive ready to go you know it's it's bizarre it just

gets you so excited things like that i mean i haven't done it for a while but i'm sure if i stood in a line now at door i would be so excited you know so happy you know getting a little hand on your shoulder and you know we're off you get the squeeze it'd be great yeah what you did your mountain leader course did that qualify i mean i'm sure the sbs had their own wrecky stuff or whatever going on like did that play into anything you got to do so i i i did a lot of the rope work i did all you know i that was my that was my role for quite some time looking after that making sure it's all you know, service and et cetera, and potentially setting things up as well. Right.

But unlike in the Marines where that was more just a supervisory role, here you were still, like you had your job as an SBS, like operator, and then you just maintain the ropes and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So how long for selection and then training, How long was it until you got to your troop? I'm not sure if it's troops or how it's broken down. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So I don't know, probably 10 months or something like that by the time you meet the guys you're going to work with. Yeah. When they. And then it all starts again. Then you're the new boy. I mean, I've been in quite a long.

I've been in the military quite a long time then. So then you're back to being a new boy. But it's not it's not the same. You know, it's not, it's not the same as turning up in a unit, etc. You still, you've done what you've done what they've done, but the guys around you have got more experience and knowledge and been there and done it. So even, even though there's guys that probably haven't been in the military as long, looking at them in all because they've, they've been on the ground and they've,

they've been in that little world and you don't even know. I mean, I was, I did quite a long time in the Marines before I went there. And I thought I was quite savvy and I thought I knew quite a lot. But when I went there, I'm like, oh my fucking God, does this, is this happening? Is that, are you allowed to do that kind of stuff? You know, it, you're like, wow, what a place. You know, it's completely, it was a completely different eye opener and to see and to be in them positions of, of, well, of completely. different, well, you wouldn't think you'd be doing them kind of things.

Yeah. Yeah. So what year was it that you, that you finally got your squadron or your, your troop, I mean? Uh, 2006. 2006. So had you deployed to Afghanistan with the Marines? No. Okay. No. So there were, so 2006, there are two wars going on. Um, How are you feeling about that? So when you, when just before you actually finish your selection process, you get an option of what squadron you're going to go for. And you get the brief of where they're,

where they're all deployed and where they're going. So everyone wants to go when the, when the first finish, they want to go straight to a conflict. So, but then you've got to think about what role it is and blah, blah, blah. So, yeah, for me, it was quite some time before I went straight out to a role, which in hindsight, it was, it worked well for me because I got, I could build up an experience before I actually went there and got the guys to take, you know, be confident of me as well. Right. Right. doing the train-ups and everything like that yeah and when you say you i'm sorry so obviously with

that you're building the relationships up with them on on different um different roles so they're looking you're obviously you're always getting looked at right and if you're if you're doing well then when the when the big things start coming in then they're happy not there would be happy anyway but you would be happy with someone because you've seen them at work. Now, when you say rule, do you sort of, and I don't, we don't need to get into specifics, but you sort of mean in a sense of, well, like this troop needs a breacher, this too needs RTO, things like that. Yeah.

You're sort of picking what you want. You get your different job descriptions, shall we say. Okay. And was there anything in particular, like kind of flipped your switch that you're like, you're like, oh, I want to learn that or I want to do that. No, I just wanted to get out there and start doing what I've always wanted to do and get amongst it. Yeah. So during this time frame, you started doing some deployments to Afghanistan.

Are there any operations that kind of like stand out in your mind as being, like, either things went really sideways or things went really well and you're like, yeah, that's how you get it done? I think during the during operations when things go well they go super well but when things go bad they go super bad it sounds weird but it kind of is on that spectrum you know you obviously plan for a plan for the successes but undoubtedly there's always going to be a fragment of not it's not going to it's not going to you're not you're not particularly. going to have a good day. So I think at the levels, at the levels when you're soldiering, at the levels you want a bit of when you get to the high parts of, of your six of the tree show is say, it's, you are, you will get bad days. You know, it's even though you're trained to the best and you've got the best skills, you, you're the best people, you've got the best equipment, etc there's always going to be something goes wrong and absolutely and it's adjusting to that really quick enough to to potentially stop it spiraling and get amongst it turn it around and try and

get it in your favor if that's possible but you know it's thinking it's thinking that quick seconds of of reacting and getting amongst it and changing that particular direction And I think that's what changes from the normal quote soldiering to to them levels. The normal kind of people just keep going or stop or don't think outside the box or don't think of alternatives. Whereas this role, you've all got to have some kind of thought process quickly to and you've got to know what each other's kind of thinking as well because. at the end of the day, everybody needs to come home. Right. Are there like some examples that you could give,

even if it has to be a bit general? I mean, for instance, everybody wants to get off a helicopter, go into a compound, smash it up. And then get back on the helicopter and go home and I'll flip in drink all night. I mean, that, that's, that's the best options. And, you know, when it happens,

it is great but sometimes when you get there and you get off you get on the ground that ground might be the wrong place to stand at the end of the day so you've got no way of knowing what what's coming at you at the end of the day unfortunately and and and that that type of war that a lot of people have to suffer that way rather than you know what we're all used or what we all think we should be, what we think's normality. Then the dirty bit gets in and kind of takes over and ruins it all.

Had the guys on your team, had they deployed already? Like, did they have that on the ground experience? So a lot of them, yeah, a lot of them have been hard and battled men for a long time, you know? Yeah. And I think going into a, an organization when you've got people who've done that,

you're in awe of them as well because they're, and they're not braggers, they're just, right, just think about this way or, you know, go that way or at the end of the night when we're back at the base, you know, that think about this, you know, maybe you should put that in a different place on your chest, you know, not fatiguing you, but giving you some helpful advice, which you wouldn't understand oh sorry you you wouldn't you wouldn't think of yourself but it's it's all that experience in that room you know there's there's there's loads of man flipping

operations um successful that's gone on that you draw onto to to to to for your success and for the team success yeah right and it's interesting because you're when you talk about wearing something somewhere else on your chest like these are things that people don't think about but they make a huge difference like when you're trying to go over a wall and you get hung up because of a tiny thing that you've got there that goes great right there but then it stops you from going over wall it's like well guess I can't put that you know but yeah and and and and and then you kind of if you're doing that you're stopping that train right or you or there's people in front you who need your help or need you to be where where you need to be you know so it's not just you getting

stopping stopping the actual momentum. It's there's potentially life-threatening, you know. Yeah. So when you guys were working, were you generally, because when we're talking about these larger battle spaces in a smaller elite unit, obviously you still need, you know, security and support out there looking out for you guys. Were you working with like coalition like conventional forces?

were they kind of stepping up for you guys in that way so we'd we'd have people around us yeah while we just different while we went in yeah yeah absolutely and and we'd always have people in the air watching us so it's quite that that is comforting because you know you know they're there um and you're not on your own i mean we don't go in as a big group anyway but right the actual group the actual group that's actually part of the whole lot is big what was uh making i got i got i have to ask what what was it like working with the yanks i mean they they they're all right now don't go gushing on gil me kirby enthusiasm there are no no there's i mean i i um i i spent a lot time in America with with with with with you guys and it's it's good fun it is good

fun and it's it's a different it's a different way of seeing things completely um the the end game's always the same is we just get there in a different route that's all it is and you've probably got better things to get there than we have so could you talk Let's go to your house, Nickson of Yorkie and walk up on the house. Well, I mean, I'm interested, like, and this is not like a positive or negative or like dish and dirt, but I am interested in like kind of the cultural differences in like the British special ops and the American special operations. Like, what were some of those differences that came out and like, how did you guys adapt and work to it? I think being in America and rubbing shoulders with you guys and doing different courses and things, I think you guys are more open of who you are.

Whereas we're kind of, we don't walk around the UK saying we're in special forces kind of thing. You know, you guys are more, yeah, you're more open to it. What's the point of being a secret agent if you can't tell people you're a single agent? I've said this in the past, and if you'll permit me, Pasha, there's a lot of truth to what you just said in that the United States publishes like our government publishes press releases like, yeah, U.S. Special Forces is working in this country and that country and we did a raid in Syria this day and that day. whereas if you look at the Commonwealth countries Canada, Australia, in the UK itself, it's much, much tighter. And some of the things that we would consider like just completely in the open and publicized is like national security secrets in some of these other countries. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, yeah, we we don't, we walk around saying who we are. or have any kind of military um kind of clothing walking around unless it's at work you know

is that is that because of operational security or is it just about being a quiet professional like where does that come out of i think a lot of it is because we've grown up with terrorism on the streets at home you know and we've had to we've had to change our way of living i mean you know for for instance, a guy walking around in uniform, shall we say, and then a potential Irish person didn't like that, then you know, you and you and your family are at risk kind of thing, you know, it's you're not off duty when you are. And I think we've all from, from obviously the past, which was only 20, 30 years ago, you know, it was a bad time. I think we've adapted like that. And I think it's better because you kind of go to work, put the stuff on

and then you're at work with your uniform on. Then you take it off. You leave there and then that's that's there. I mean, in your mind you're still doing everything and watching your back, etc. But you try and blend in. and keep everything away from you because it's it's personal security yeah so like when you're at the pub and someone asks you who you are what you do what do you say well when i was when i was there i i just

make some bullshit up or or just start changing the subject or something yeah yeah yeah i mean wouldn't because they wouldn't because i'm i'm five foot five and like 70 so everyone thinks you should be 25 stone and flipping six and a half foot it look like you're a recruiting poster for the Wafin SS, but yeah. I was actually going to ask you that because, you know, you went from, you know, the Royal Marines and a mortar platoon, you know, where obviously size is important in terms of the weight you're carrying and all that stuff. But then all of a sudden you go to a unit where not looking like what people think you should look like. It's kind of an advantage.

It can be very beneficial. Oh, they, because of my size, I was at. able to get through things and be first in potential places, et cetera. Right. Because most guys can't get in there or they have to remove your your, your, your, your ethnicity also allowed you to yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I could walk around, you know, for instance, you know, surveillance and things like that. I don't look like a military person. Right. So on, on a on a counterterrorism role, I could be following somebody on the streets just just mind of my own business no one potentially would

think I would be a soldier getting ready to pull the team in kind of thing right yeah and then also I mean what was it like working with your brothers in the SAS in Afghanistan I mean how did how did that kind of collaboration happen and how did it work out well we didn't we didn't really work together to be honest we just was there at different times oh okay so it's like a rotation schedule Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah, that's cool. When you said that you had come here and it like it was a different culture,

you didn't just necessarily mean like the SF community or special operations community, but just the military in general that they wore their uniforms and like they'd go out like in Fort Bragg out on the town and, you know. Yeah, it was just, yeah, it's just different. I mean, you can't really drink as good. I'm just saying. Plus we had general order number one, which, which, you know, hampered a lot of people. Not all of us. Yeah, right.

Hapered other people. What? Because obviously these were a different, you and Robin were separated by, you know, a time frame. But he said one of the things he noticed when he'd come to the States was that, you know, the Brits had a much different sense. of humor and and and and where like the spec ops guys that they would work with we're almost always almost kind of uptight in a way yeah where they were i mean we've got a reputation of like taking the piss yeah um and you guys it you can tell sometimes you're saying some and trying to be funny or something you get you kind of getting upset about it you can see you can see the face is

changing you know i'm not after a fight yeah like taking the piss that it Yeah, yeah, guys that have a stick up their ass. Yeah, really getting serious. Oh, sorry, mate. We all right. Pasha, because of the time frame that you served in, I want to ask you a question that is maybe it is a little bit sensitive. And if you prefer to pass on this entirely, I won't be offended.

There was an operation that the SBS participated in. is it's some shape or form in Nigeria in 2012, a hostage rescue that went really bad, rescue of a British national and an Italian national. And I mean, if you have any sort of like insights into it, it might be a good opportunity to add some context. But I'd be interested to hear your perspective. But again, if you prefer to pass on this one, like I won't be offended by it. Well, I wasn't.

So my role at that particular time, I was, I was training, training guys at home. So I wasn't in, I had like a bit of a downtime of two years. Mm-hmm. So I, I was just teaching. Yeah. So I didn't really, I didn't really. And I had, it was kind of my downtime. So I didn't really know much what was, what was, the weird thing is when, when all these, when things are happening around the world,

with units like this, you don't really always hear about them when you're on the camp because nobody's on camp. Right. Nobody's there. Everybody's out and about and doing things. Unless you're in quote, ain't an op-room watching or knowing about it, you don't particularly know until weeks, months later. And you meet someone later on and say, oh, did you hear about so-and-so?

Because everyone's out and busy and getting on with it. So, and you don't actually necessarily know what each other, each other's, platoons are doing anyway. So, because your focus of what you need to do, it's, it's kind of your own little world. Was there anything that, like, came out of that to your recollection? I don't know, mate. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, what you're, what, what, for people who might not be aware, like, what Jack's talk about is open source. Like, it's, it's known that, you know, that this hostage situation happened. And, um, yeah, and like, nobody did anything wrong. It just, Like, no, no, I wasn't, I wasn't implying that at all.

But I mean, yeah, that, that was an example of a mission that went wrong and perhaps, when you operate with foreign nationals, it is what it is sometimes, you know. You're not, you're not in charge over there. What was that like for you guys in Afghanistan? Like, how involved, you know, because you're not, you know, you're called special forces in Britain, but you're, you're not trained the same way the Green Bray are with, the heart's like the indigenous sort of hands-on stuff. How was that for you guys going from a kind of a CT role?

And I know you were still like direct action, but you're still like dealing with villagers, dealing with, you know, with things that are sort of, I'm going to say shouldn't have been necessarily in your wheelhouse. Well, to be honest, when, when you're on the ground, You don't really get much face to face with people. You don't really get much conversations. So you don't really need people to kind of do that.

You didn't need to do order too much. Yeah. Yeah. So you're there for a different kind of reason. Yeah. There's no kind of hearts and minds when we're knocking on door or something like that. Yeah. So I think everybody wants to know, did you guys fall under general order number one?

And if not, did everybody come harass you guys to get them booze. We have good drinks now and then. Yeah. Yeah. So as your career moved along, I mean, you spent, what, 12 years in the SBS. What were some of the other, like, rules that you fell in on and some of the additional, like, skills that you learned as time went on in the unit? I did a lot of diving.

I really, I really started to enjoy my dive. and I spent a lot of time underwater and I really enjoyed that, which is more of a niche as well because underwater, I mean, underwater, no one's saving you, there's so much safety involved and the safety to the outcome, you know, it's to get and do what you need to do with whatever you've, you've got is obviously what you've got on and it's it's mostly life's life saving equipment really and yeah you still got your your weapons but that's kind of put to one side it's mostly your life saving equipment to get to you from A to B and then then you've got to actually get ready to prepare to have a scrap so I think I think people don't understand or don't sometimes think of that

that that underwater part or that water power is it takes a lot out of you, you know. Yeah. And you've got you've got to learn how to, you know, try and control, control your breathing and relax a bit and maintain it to until you get to that position. And either you're going to get out or whatever you're going to do, then you've got to switch it on because that's, even though you're underwater, that's a life-threatening position anyway.

Right. Then at the other side, you've got a potential even more life-threatening because someone's coming at your full full steam ahead. And then potentially you've got to get home. So the battle's not finished by you're just going to get a ride back on a helicopter or something. Then you've got to make you way back to somewhere else. That's you're going to start, you know, fatiguing quite, quite quickly if you don't get it

right. Or if you're not going to get the straight line back to a position because the tide's gone the wrong way or something you've planned the tide one you know you're in a nightmare yeah was that a capability that you ever had the opportunity to use operationally yeah that's pretty cool out of curiosity because you guys did have this responsibility like the essay didn't have in terms of the maritime operation and diving you know when you're when you're doing it operationally like it's not paddy diving you know right um and whether you're driving you know i'm a closed system or an open system or whatever, like,

um, just fluctuating, you know, up and down, uh, because you have buoyancy issues can lead to a lot of it's a nightmare. Yeah.

And you can, you can blow your lungs up just from doing that. And so you guys are going and, you know, we've had seals on and they, they probably go through the exact same stuff in the sense. You go from this land war and then you have to come back and be this, you know, proficient maritime operator and,

and able to, you know, the proficiencies that you have to safely conduct and it's yeah and it's there's a lot of risk with with those systems so like how would you guys get back up to speed would it be guys in your own dive locker

did you have like Royal Navy divers on hand to like to sort of keep you guys we teach so we'd teach ourselves in-house so I mean the good thing or maybe the bad thing about the UK waters you can't see anything usually. So it's like, it's like, it's like that.

Yeah. So you're, when you're practicing a particular scenario in these waters, you're full on practicing because unless you're, unless you're going on that direction for a certain time to get to a certain place, you're not, you've got to trust everything because you can't, like for instance, if you're in Hawaii,

I can see where I'm going. It's right there. Yeah. you know and and it's all it's all relaxing well more relaxing whereas if it's completely nothing and something's just brushed you because you don't even know what it is because you can't even see anything anyway and then you've got to get to a place and it's pretty cold right um i think it's it's more it's more testing most definitely yeah so basically you would just you guys were responsible for doing your own train out like getting back into the swing of that did did did you guys

Did you personally ever feel that across the breadth of missions that that the SBS was responsible for, especially with the like the rotation, the cycle with the wars and everything like that, did you ever felt like you guys were kind of like that certain parts of your mission that you weren't doing, that weren't necessary for the war and stuff like that like things were falling behind because you had so many different responsibilities? Not really because the people back at the HQ obviously know the momentum, know what people are doing. So there's people saying when was the last time you particularly did this or you need to go back to do that because you haven't done. Or there's something bubbling over here that you haven't particularly done any training on that task, as it were. you need to go away and do that in the middle of this that and that so a lot of that does happen

and unfortunately because there's not enough time you might be losing your own time to get yourself in a better better situation because there's there's not enough time to get everything in yeah but then then you think the outcome of what you're doing it for then kind of matters right at a certain point you uh also got involved in doing like the canine position too right yeah yeah so i i had i had a dog for for quite some time which which was amazing um unfortunately i mean dogs are amazing but they don't seem to have a long life a lifespan um and dog lovers it's frigging hard yeah you know you've grown up with that not young grow up then you've you've you've you've been training they don't they don't have a long lifespan in the unit yeah yeah yeah and and

he's doing his job and he's he's you know a lot of times that's i think for for me personally that was one of the it was horrible could you talk a little bit about like what that job entailed and like how you came in on that well i just volunteered for at the end of the day i i've always had dogs at home um i like dogs um i um i like dogs um and I just wanted to potentially get get up front again you know get get up

get up front get amongst the bad people first and I've got a dog with me now how cool is that just take him off and see what he does you know this was after your time in the training training other guys to get back into it yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so

yeah it's it was a it's a great opportunity because yeah getting back up the front again you know and the guys are obviously backing you up and backing the dog up and yeah it's a great opportunity and and then dogs are phenomenal what they what they do and you know that they're there to protect you and and and rightly so that they do and and yeah like i said unfortunately a lot of them don't retire they're they're amazing they're i mean those those those those service dogs are they're fearless they're working dogs yeah absolutely and and the good thing is you know that they're they're they are part of the team

because they they live with you and and you know because that dog needs to smell all the guys and keep that smell you know keep that smell he'll know what the bad people smell like yeah so he knows when it's pitch black and who's in that room he knows what the good who's good and bad and and does his job yeah and how is that for you as like a canine handler on target like if you could talk a little bit about what that was like well you kind of you kind of back up there as in because you're you're a massive asset for the team you know there's there's there's there's there's something that needs to be sorted and the only way we're going to get or potentially the only way we're going to move is deploy the dog

the dog will go and do his job and hopefully do it right and then we can hopefully go and help him because, you know, he's, he's just give himself up for us. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So can we talk about working dogs down a little bit? Because, you know, I think for a lot of people, the images of a police dog, which is like going after a criminal, which, which working dogs can do, they can go on the attack, but they can also do rec. Like, they can do so many different things. Can you sort of talk about their mission? So they can attack. They'll, they'll go and attack and rip the boat's throat out. If that's what they're asked to do,

they can smell munitions, obviously IEDs and things like that. They can do all that kind of stuff. They can smell drugs. So their capability for the teams, absolutely massive, absolutely. You know, they're protecting you, that they're potentially walking in the steps

that you don't wanna walk down first. So they're making the power. for you and if anything down that path that they come across then unfortunately they might get it or we they'll find it smell it out and then we we get round it and and move forward this is so many things that that dog foot does for us it's unbelievable can uh can you can you can you say uh what your dog's name was maybe the retired ones no no no it's just a it's just a dog yeah Yeah, I know, like I'd seen, you know, on target, you know, the, the handlers, you know, they'd have the canine, like the canine systems where, you know, they've got the, they've got the iPad right there or the tablet. Yeah, yeah.

And the dog's going in with an IR light. You're watching it. Yeah, yeah. And you can see every bad guy either because the dog's just creeping. Yeah. Yeah. Really amazing capability. It's unbelievable, yeah, unbelievable capability.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. Super brave too. Those dogs don't run like no matter what's going down. And they're so agile.

They can jump flipping, you know, unbelievable and grab old as someone and tear them apart. Yeah. Yeah. Were you guys using, I mean, I don't know if you know if you can say, but were you guys using the Malina, the Malinawa? Yeah. That was one of our dogs. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of one of the common dogs.

Interesting. Yeah. Fascinating. How long did you do that? And did you miss sort of being like like the number one or two men in the door? Or did you, did you feel satisfied like being like? Well, that's why I wanted to. That's why I wanted to do the dog handling again.

Oh, do the dog handling because I wanted to be up front again. Because I've been in a, I've been in a while by then. And yeah, I see. My time was, my time was probably coming back a bit. Yeah. So to get to get the dog, you kind of get back up there. Yeah. Yeah. And you also got involved in working with the submersibles, right? Which is pretty cool.

Yeah. So I did a lot of diving on submersibles. Yeah, again, it is a system that you breathe, you breathe obviously from gets you, gets you around. It's a tool. It's a tool at the end of the day. And, you know, for instance, if you're going from A to be and if that distance is quite long or if it's against an obstacle i.e. tides, wind, et cetera, et cetera. If you've got something to get you there, then why wouldn't you use it and get to the other side in a better, in a better state to take on the task? So the more, the more equipment you can cheat kind of to get to do that, then it's a no-brainer. And the thing is, because it's all underwater, unless you've got some super cool stuff that detects all that stuff, then you're silent and you're against.

You've got you one step in front completely. So like having spoken with like sealed delivery vehicle guys in the past, like they they love the system to get them from point A to point B. And they hated the system because they weren't swimming while they were in it. And yeah, you start freezing. Yeah. So you're getting cold. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I honestly, to God, I have no idea like what's open source as far as the British military is concerned. But I mean, are you allowed to talk about the submersibles and the models or anything at all? Oh, no.

Okay. That's, yeah, no, I get it. What about the range and depth? Can you tell us? I'm just kidding. That's even worse. Yeah, I know. I know.

I'm just kidding. So, so how long have you been in? the Marines at this point in time. How long have you been in the military? Well, not the Marines. So I did 13 years in the SPS. All in 27 years. I did 14 in the Royal Marines and 13 in the SPS.

It's incredible. And you did three tours to Afghanistan? Two. Two tourists to Afghanistan? And then I'm sure that like there were still like, there were things going on everywhere. Oh, you wouldn't believe because there's stuff happening everywhere all the time. Yeah.

Absolutely. Could you talk about the counter-drug trafficking stuff at all? Well, before I went into the SPS, I actually, sorry, no, I was actually in the SPS. We, we, we, well, I personally went and helped the Marines actually because they was, trying to stop the pirates as it were. And they didn't really know what they was doing. So I went along, met up with them, and guided them on how to go and find these small boats

with all these bags of stuff and etc, etc. And how to find them and what to do when you actually can see them and what your rules are of the next. phase. So yeah, I enjoy, I totally enjoy that because I was with normal Marines and they was looking up at me and they was a bit young and potentially inexperience of what those, what they're allowed to do and and how they're allowed to do it. Whereas our rules of engagement are a little bit different. Right. Where were these pirates? So what help?

What was like, because I'll say in the United States, like there were not just between presidents that during an administration, like the rules of engagement in Afghanistan changed, like constantly based on what like UNHR was saying based on, you know, different types of things that were going down. We know and I have since learned that the French were like far more direct and and less, like, reluctant when it came to their rules of engagement. So they were very proactive about the protection of their troops and things like that. How was it for you guys?

Did it fluctuate or was it pretty much? Not really. It was all, you know what the rules are. That's right and wrong, as it were. You know, that's pretty much it. If you're doing the wrong things, then you'll be, well, You'll be sanctioned. Sold off, kind of.

Well, we're told off. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Did you guys, you know, like working within the coalition forces, you know, working with like American elements or not if not directly with them, then sort of if they were the battle space owners, were there ever issues between what your, like, rules of engagement were and what theirs were and things like that? Not really. Not really. I mean, like you say, the battle space is predominantly run by you guys. And you're looking after the different levels up there, etc., etc. So that most of what we got in support was you guys anyway.

So it was comforted because, well, having said that anyone in that stack would do, do what you'd ask them to do anyway. So, but it's usually, but it was usually you guys in that stack, Reddit. They, they, they knew that they would be getting some action that night. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you never had, well, I guess because it was nighttime. Like, I think some of the issues came up when like day, you know, the sun would break and AC was still up or things like that. But, but you guys always felt supported and, and like, oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we won't be on the ground without any, without a lot of support. Yeah.

Because whatever we was doing was, was bad, was bad. Yeah. From Jack and I and all Americans, you're welcome. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Yeah. So as, as time goes on, I mean, you know, you're a seasoned SBS operator. and had a pretty amazing career between the Royal Marines and the SPS.

How does that start to wind down for you? How does that retirement come into the picture? For me, it came to, I was getting tired because there was no kind of downtime. And I had, I personally had a lot of luck. And on one particular time. I had a great, a lot of luck. And I was like, I think, I think I'm ready to hang up my weapon now. And that was, that was kind of instant.

It wasn't, it wasn't kind of planned. It was like, I'm tired. Was there like a certain event or an incident? Yeah, it was an, it was an event. But, but previous, throughout, throughout my career there, I, I, I got in situations. And I was lucky. I was always, I, I, put, For me personally, I'm not saying for people around me necessarily, but I was, I was lucky.

And I'd always note that down as well. And, you know, there'd be times when I'm looking at my look and thinking, how much look can one person have? And then I did get into a situation and I was very lucky. And I was like that. I've done 27, well, I've done quite a lot of years by then. I was like that, right. I'm ready to, I'm ready to go now. and I want to be and I wanted to be a family man then because I wasn't a family man.

I had a family and I but I wasn't a I wasn't a father or a husband because I always selfishly whenever I was going away I was like that I can't think of them because this right I'm here for a I'm here for a reason right and that reason unfortunately isn't to think on a on a on a on a line what the kids have just gone to bed right right Right. And that, yeah, it wasn't planned. It was just, that's, that's me now. So that is a really like sharp corner that you turned. Yeah. And, you know, no regrets. I mean, when I left, I, my transition was really cool. I didn't get in into any difficulties as it were. I did a straight cut. I didn't want to, I thought, I

I wanted to be a civilian. So I went into a civilian job straight away before I actually left. I got permission to go work because I got the job. I did that for a few years. I did particularly like offices and kind of people, civilian people kind of thing. So then I went to what I was comfortable. I went into security and went straight into closed protection

and did that and which is weird because it went back to for instance you know I'm in the special forces and you're out you're out and about and you don't tell any people that's what kind of when I went back into because if I if I was in the pub and I said oh you know what did you do yesterday for work and if I said I protected so and so and so and so they're like yeah piss off because you don't look like the you don't look like the average close protection person but they don't seem to realize it's that the close protection person can mingle and and see situations rather than be the six foot massive in front of the client right and that's that's how I've always been able to get in really good um tasks and and it's always worked and from from

from from from day one of my close protection I went straight into royalty and I've I've been at that level since and recently I've started my own business because it's yeah again I'm I'm in a position where I always want something up there that that's never kind of stopped there's always you get to a position think right I'm comfortable but now I want to get up there and I want to I want to get into that position you know what I mean I've spoken to people who like you know like rappers and celebrities want like a big dude who's like a minder they need meat you know you know they need a meat shield but but somebody who is like a billionaire or somebody who's ahead of state want someone who can just like blend right in like you are just seamless and no one notices you

there yeah somebody who's famous needs somebody who could move a crowd right like move people out of their way but a businessman a politician they don't want that they want somebody who sees can drive yeah yeah absolutely and and and not be the brawn right and be be be a personality as well right even though even though you're you know you're looking long look and looking what's happening and but you're still holding a conversation walking down a high street yeah with a particular royal family who she who's got a baseball cap on don't want to know but a royal what what royal family could that possibly be pasha i can't possibly i'm not telling you that one but you know but it's

It's so rewarding that I can, to walk around in that space and give them the freedom that. We all want that freedom, but just because how they've been born or how money's got into them, they've potentially have to change their lifestyle. But if they can do their normal pattern of life, and that's all they want,

without getting any, any, anybody, any obstacles, as it were, then your job's done. Have you happened to work with a client who had an actual active threat, like a stalker or something like that? Oh, absolutely. I worked with a person who came to this country, who very, very famous Middle Eastern, very rich person, shall we say,

who wanted to hurt her and the family so there was a massive threat and you don't really get that in the UK I mean there's there's there's not people walking around with weapons and things things like you know there isn't but that there's money can talk at the end of the day yeah I was going to ask a passion on this particular subject I mean like when you're a private security guard in the UK or you've been allowed to be armed no absolutely not yeah no so you have to be smarter not harder yeah absolutely you've got to think and and and read read what's happening i mean i mean it's more of a it's more of a mental um right task rather than a physical task because you're scouring all the time you're looking for potential potential threats and you know the big threats one of the big threats

is walking around with a bottle of acid. How can you tell that bottle's not got acid in at the end of the day? You know, right. And if your client has potentially got that threat against them, right, you know, if you're walking down the street and people, they're walking around with a cup of coffee, right. You've got, that's a potential threat and you've got to get yourself in the way, in the way of the client without the client,

knowing what's going on or without the potential threat knowing what you're doing right and and 99.9% it isn't a threat it's just you're negating it by by putting yourself in there and making making it right that if it is a threat you've got it covered do you want to talk about that a little bit that you uh i believe you have a security company today yeah so black box um global. So we do, we do executive protection. And it's good that the network I have is potentially tier one and the tiers of the high counter surveillance terrorist policemen, that kind of level. So they're all in all on our books. So the kind of level. So the kind of level, of operator you're going to get is the top of what the UK has provided rather than rather than like

you say just a normal person who's standing at a door who's looking tough but really right it probably can't kind of can't run down the road and it can't even mentally see what the situation is getting himself into yeah i think that one of the things you see with celebrities a lot is you know is they get buddy guards, you know, like, yeah, and that's what it is. They get the biggest friends that they have. They pay them to protect them. And those guys often start fights instead of like, yeah, because they're looking, they're looking gruesome and there's and people get the attitude because why do you

need to look like that and put a threat to other people when you're making yourself, you're the threat. The CP's making himself the threat because he's, he's, he's, he's egging people. along to to to to to to to start something right yeah it's it's a very different world between like celebrities often and and like like say like business people high net value yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah absolutely and and at the end of the day they they they don't want they don't want it they want to take off that posh expensive watch they want to go and have some freedom they want to go to have a coffee you know they want the time out and and like and like the

their children. They don't want their children to be grown up behind the wall or behind the wire kind of thing. They need to have their normal lives as well. How hard is it to convince somebody like that? Um, you know, like, uh, it was Kim Kardashian, right, who got robbed in her hotel because she sent her security off and then she basically, I guess, took a photo of herself in her hotel room and somebody put it all together. Whatever, however I went down. But how hard. is it to sort of like allow your client to live a normal life or you know be socialness and that but also not like show all their jewelry and what hotel room they're staying in at the same

time yeah it's it's it's it's it's advising but being a stern advisor but being a friend being being being a friend as well rather than rather than the the bodyguard it's it's look you know have you thought about this? You know, instead of doing that, have you thought about this way? You know, I think, I think in the circumstances in this, in this potential hotel or wherever we're going, the likelihood of someone doing A, B, and C is quite high. So if we go this way off, if you want to potentially put a baseball cap on or, you know, don't carry anything as we're going along and or we've got a QRF, follow shadowing us,

etc, et cetera, et cetera. It's just educating them rather than telling, letting them dictate what they want because it's not necessarily safe what they want. Yeah. Yeah. Is it challenging for you to find guys to do like the protective surveillance to, you know, to kind of fill out all the roles? No, not at all because the roles we go for, like I say,

are the high, high paying clients. shall we say which if you're getting paid the higher daily rate right then you're getting paid that for a reason right right and if and and if you want to stay then you need to produce that and if i'm paying you right then when you go to the next task you tell everybody that i paid you right and and it went well then then your company gets the good reputation because a lot of these companies take a lot of the money themselves and pay the guys pretty pretty poor really yeah yeah and then how do you manage uh because you know like the whole work life balance or being with your family while you're deploying all the time what was kind of tough on you how did you manage that with

cp because that that can also be a very demanding job um so i when i when i went on the full-time royalty kind of job it was a rotation which which was fine because at the end of the day the I was only a few hours from home anyway I could always have a phone I could always ring up whereas on deployments etc you can't whenever we went away we wasn't taking our mobile we wasn't we didn't have a facility to do the communications which which which which is tough in these in this in these days which 20 30 years ago is the north we wouldn't do that anyway but in these days everyone needs to know what's happening now, etc. So my family's been used to the fact that they haven't heard from me for six months.

So missing a day, not ringing up really isn't a problem. And because I'm in mostly the UK, there's not kind of a threat that some, because I haven't rang right, that there's potentially something wrong. Right, right, right. And you're also not so worried about getting,

like in the right headspace so I'm not going to talk to my family because I'm going to stop right yeah absolutely yeah and like so you're starting you started this business and where can people find you if you know are you on social media um we haven't we're not really social media at the moment it's most well all our work at the moment's been word of mouth but we've got a website blackbox global dot dot co uh dot net um So if anybody is interested in them kind of services, you will get the high tier operator, whether that be military, police, you will get that. And with that comes a wealth of experience.

And the good thing with that, because we've not just kept it military, we've kept it police, all the new kind of stuff. systems, the arresting systems, what's what what counter terrorists, what the threats are, etc. kind of drips back into us now because it's kind of open source to them. Right. That they can they can dwell on it and keep us update. And for instance, if we went into a different country, we can kind of get the intelligence briefs of what is what is the threats in in that place where then our operators are more confident and happy that. if if I put out a job specification they know what the parameters are or what the risks are before they actually put the random say they're interested which I think it that should be done from any any any kind of role but a lot of people don't even do that will say is anybody available to go to I don't know for instance Iraq for three months on three months off but what is what what are you doing what what risk is that right and and and it.

It's not, it's different now because in the military, you kind of, that's part of it. You don't really think of the risk. It's because it's your job and you're getting paid 24-7 to do that anyway. Whereas nowadays, we need to, we need to be open booked to the operators wherever they're going because they need to perform in that situation. And like the military, they're not going to get a flipping ton of people looking down that wall to get them out. And that is the main I mean we will get people to come but not like whatever what we're all used to that the army is going to come rolling in and smash the doors down and get you you're not you're not getting an AC130. Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. And and I'm not putting my DNA all over the room and someone's going to find that. So right. Yeah. It's not happening. I mean, look, I mean, the government sales black blocks global could always buy their own AC 130. Get into get into the Eric.

business you've been watching too much Stallone films there. Do we have any questions? We do. We do. What about yourself personally? Do you have, like, if people want to, like, follow you and catch up, do you have, like, social media that you post on and? I'm on LinkedIn. I do

most of my work on LinkedIn. Okay. So, LinkedIn, I post every day on LinkedIn. A lot of my work comes in through LinkedIn. Let's get to the questions here. And again, We understand that the Commonwealth has much stricter rules on freedom of speech for your veterans than the United States.

So if any of these questions are sensitive at all, just let us know. People completely understand. Joe's got you. Thank you very much. Did you get to work with the special reconnaissance regiment on deployments? Yes. Patrick Howard, thank you very much. 50.

I don't know what that is. DJ Sneed, maybe I missed something. DJ Sneed, thank you very much. Is there a higher echelon of SBS slimmer to dev group or E Squadron in the 22SAS? And you know, you had mentioned already that the SBS was basically CEL Team 6.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dee, did you happen to look at Patreon? Patrick, are you trying to, like sciat me here I feel like you donated

you $2 which we really appreciate and then you put $50 down in the comment so you're trying to

like you're trying to throw me like it's like showing somebody a green card and printing red on it

and like throwing them off I don't know what the play was but hey that means it worked you know it's good

go ahead okay uh Simon asks Thanks guys. There's a risk that UK defense cuts will lead to the loss of mountain leaders. If so, how might that accumulated experience and knowledge be maintained for future generations? So what you're saying that the UK are deficient mountain leaders at the moment? Yeah, I guess he's mentioning like the defense cuts in the UK might get rid of the mountain leaders.

I don't think they would do, to be honest. When the, when the, UK does the defense kind of cuts on the manpower that the Marines don't really get cuts they they they it's the the Marines there is that business sorry because they're the business well they're not that big anyway if you think about it the Marines I think are they're only about 6,000 people anyway no no I said that because they're the business like they're the big absolutely yeah yeah yeah the most bang for the bar Yeah, yeah. No, it is.

Yeah, so they don't really get cut. So I think with the mountain leaders, this is like the selection. So in the selection, the SF selection, you get so many hundreds going for it and five or pass. That's kind of the same kind of thing as the MLS. But you'll always get that continued application of people wanting to go for it because it is a sought after course.

it's the toughest course in the raw marines and the longest. And it's looked upon for the rest of the Western world as that as well. So people will always want to do that. And with that, then that mountain leader has got so many options, not just being the instructor, he can go up 200 kilometers up the front line, doing whatever he needs to do, laying down everything for when the raw marines turn up, etc. So that's trade, I don't, I don't believe, will ever, or leave or struggle.

One more. What really drove the SPSSAS merger in quotations was a largely political? To be honest, that when they merged together, it was before, before I actually went and did selection. So that was potentially early 90s. And I think, I don't know the exact reason, but I think it was just so they both do the same kind of training to start with. There's no difference. So one unit can't say they're better because they do a longer selection or a different kind of selection. Everybody's in the mix.

And at the end of the at the end of the selection process, everybody's gone through the same kind of, well, the same kind of. same kind, same course. So we're all equal at the end of the day. I think that what people really want to know, because when you compare like the tier one units to the US and you say you guys are sort like Steel Team 6, do you have better hair products than the SAS? Well, I am 51. We're all dealing, we're all dealing with this issue.

All of us. I'm not. I dealt with when that's 30. Problem solved. Problems, staying solved. what is there like what is the rivalry because obviously there's going to be a rival between

the SBS and the SAS but like how does that rivalry like what's the tone like what are things you guys fuck with each other about well we don't really at the end of the day it'll just be banter it'll just be banter but it'll be nothing

it'll be nothing sinister I don't mean sinister but like are there things you guys hold against each other like I mean in a joking way like we tease seals incessantly but we it's one team one fight like we have nothing but love for them yeah yeah but yeah I mean

because they play volleyball they have a nice hard products and you know six pack abs I'm a little jealous yeah I am well well the SBS do look a lot fitter than the SAS and you said they're better so

well no big deal hey it happens Is there anything that we neglected to cover, anything that you want to talk about that we miss? No, I think we've gone through most of it. And I think I briefly mentioned that, you know, throughout that process of me being in the military, the bit I neglected was the family. And I'm happy that I've left now and actually doing my being being. in a family man because I started my family after I passed selection because I wanted everything

in place yeah so that you know they could have what they wanted kind of thing but it didn't really work because they didn't have me so now now that they got me I need to fast or rewind as much as I can to try and squeeze in what I can before they've gone and and that is difficult because there's only so much that the children want to what to do with you firstly. Right. And, you know, we've, as parents, we've only got a certain window where we, where we can actually do this without when they've gone.

Right. And that's, that's what I'm battling with now. I mean, I've still got a few years, but I, I, I, I started, well, when, when I left, one of my main efforts was to, to be a dad, to, to, to do sports, to do this. to do that and to be on a shoulder rather than you know when do you think dad's him again that's really cool yeah have you yeah have you thought about taking them to a pub and getting in a good a good punch up like nothing brings the team together like a good row they're not they're not old enough yeah but i'm sure i'm sure i'm going to i'm going to challenge that when they are no that's

that's super cool pasha i mean it's it's a great like a story about transitioning from being a special operator to a dad. Yeah. And it's like such an important like human experience. It's great. And I'm glad that you were able to come on here and talk about it. Yeah. You know, you talked about something earlier too because you said about being selfish,

like being in your headspace or, you know. But the thing is, and Jack and I've talked about this before too. Like there's the whole thank you for your service thing. But especially for people who were in special ops, like we were extremely selfish. Like we were living the lives that we had designed for ourselves. and like a lot of us left loved ones behind families, marriage is neglected, so that we could, so that we could like live our name. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And the wives and the kids that support all of that. Yeah. And that you're able to put, put a part of that life somewhat behind you and move on to the next stage is really, really cool. That's fantastic. And the people I went through my school, squadron life, I'm probably one of one of one or two that's left married. Yeah.

Yeah, which is a huge achievement. Unfortunately. Yeah. That's a, like, it's not to like for like civilians out there watching that, maybe don't understand, but to go through the career that you had and remained married. Yeah. It's like a huge accomplishment in of itself. And coming home, you know, not releasing what you've done, things like that, but, but,

but talking talking about certain things, that's a big dwell on them as well. I mean, I didn't always go out and go get, when I come home, I wouldn't go downtown and I'd come home because, yeah, again, I needed to be with my family. But there was times when you're actually getting drunk and telling your wife, I'm a bit down because of it. And it's a lot for them to burden on, really, and to go through the process of kind of picking up your shit. right right and and to stay in with you and and and to turn that around firstly to make you try and make you feel better but then process process their their mental status because they they kind of get went through it in a sense pushed on to it right their own I mean for instance what one night I jumped on the wife and started strangler and I've done it a few times

and because I've got bad dreams, etc. And thankfully, we've got through that. But you would wake up in this state? Yeah, you know, and that, you know, that isn't normal. But when you've been through situations, right, it's not an excuse, but it's, it's, look, I'm sorry. It's a reality. Right. It's a reality that you're right with it.

You know, there's something in there. And I don't think you can all ever get away with or get push things away completely. There's always there's always something in that hard drive that at some point comes out now and then. And, you know, we're not, we're not prepared. We're not on our toes thinking about it because firstly, we don't think it's going to happen. And we want to push it away because we're better than that. But the trigger points, and we don't know what them trigger points are. And they do come out.

Right. And we have to, and unfortunately, the closest people that were next to actually get it. Not get it, but get the brunt of it. Right. Right. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, it really does speak to, like, the character of the fortitude of your wife. And not the women who get fed up with it and, like, want it out.

Not that there's anything wrong with their character. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is not only was your wife, like, you know, helping you through your processes, but you were also. gone a ton like like i was like jack was like and people don't generally most people don't get married especially i think generally women like guys get married we're like okay i'm good like i'm married i got like i got my wife i can go do my thing but like people don't get married to be alone and for for a woman to like stick through that it's to be a to be a basically a single woman through a large part of her marriage like it's and and and one thing that's that's

my wife had to learn with was not tell people what i did what i did as well so she was she had to learn how to lie a lot as well right right did did she make up like a like a good job for you in terms of i mean he's an i don't know yeah i'm i'm i'm diving somewhere or something yeah yeah so pa pasha maybe this is the last question what what how do you and this is for my own benefit as much as anyone else how do you talk to your children about your military service what do you what do you tell them I don't really talk about it's funny

I've got a I'm in my mind cave now so I've got all my men remember being around but my I've got two boys and they're they're not really interested which which I kind of like so I don't have to potentially lie to them so I try not to yeah try not to you don't want to tell tell any stories but having said that yesterday my

eldest son was at school and he kind of Googled me and I was on a YouTube podcast is that what what was you doing is that well if you want to know just listen to it's not a problem well Pasha I mean I don't know how old your children are but there's got there there's going to come a time where and this is presumptuous but you're going to have to tell them what you did and who you are. Well, I would actually like to do a family, a book for my family. I want to do that. I mean, because my wife's always telling me because the stories are still there.

And at some point, the stories are going to go and fade and be something that at the time I'm probably making up. You know, that you think happened and maybe didn't. Right. But, you know, if I had the time and the finances potentially, I could, I would actually like someone to make me a family, my, my, a book. So when my kids potentially get old enough to want to read it, they can read it and or when, when I've potentially gone, that's part of who, what I did because no one else is going to tell them what I did. Right. And we're not going to be any TV. programs is there but that's what we're doing here right yeah and the

podcast you're gone there we're hoping that they're the new autobiographies right that they're the new like personal history and in in those you know in the historic context of you know obviously there are going to be a lot of personal things that you would pass to your children and details and things like that that you wouldn't share with the public but you know hopefully one of these days when they do get interested they'll watch the team house and they'll subscribe and join our page on. Yeah, there you go.

No, it's, no, I'm, you're on the right track. And when you write that, you know, if you decide to put it into the shoe box and put in a safety deposit box for your children, that's cool. But Jack wants the key. No, I do want the key. But if you ever decide to write that book, we'd love to have you back on here to talk about it.

But otherwise, I mean, Pasha, thank you so much for coming here and sharing a part of your story with us. Absolutely pleasure. Fantastic. We deeply appreciate it. Two hours ago, it's flown by. Yeah, it goes by.

Yeah. And we will be back next Friday with a crew chief in the 160th Special Operations Aviation Unit. We're really excited to have him on the show. Pasha, any final thoughts? Anything you want to share with us? I'm all good. All right, man. Thank you, man.

And we will see all of you guys out there next Friday. Bye, Rick.