The Team House - SEAL Team Six Operator Chuck O'Conner on Explosive Breaching, Ep. 86

Episode Date: March 27, 2021

Chuck O'Conner delivers a master class in explosive breaching. First we discuss his military career in SEAL Team 2 and SEAL Team Six deploying to Bosnia, spinning up for some counter-terrorism operations, then working executive protection in Haiti. Chuck then gives his presentation on why explosive breaching techniques today are fundamentally flaws as currently practiced. Then we talk about the way forward and how to prevent operators from Traumatic Brain Injury. Get access to bonus segments with our guests: https://www.patreon.com/m/TheTeamHouse Team House merch: https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963 Podcast version of this show can be found here: https://soundcloud.com/user-796052562/deadly-special-ops-missions-in-the-pech-valley-with-wes-morgan-ep-85 Team House Discord: https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here: https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links): https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSampleBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

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Millions of people depend on these medicines to live healthier, more active lives. And every time you donate with Gryffles Plasma, you're compensated. You can receive over $500 the first month. Learn more about plasma and how it helps people at Gryphalsplasma.com. Covert Ops. Espionage. The Team House. With your hosts, Jack Murphy and David Park. Guys, this is episode 86.

I'm Jack Murphy here with Dave Park. This is the Team House. We are streaming live. We're here tonight with Chuck O'Connor. Chuck is a former Seal Team 6 operator where he was the master breacher. He is also the author of this textbook. Tactical Explosive Breaching Operation. Chuck has, what, 37 years of experience and demolitions, Chuck?

43, all together with exposes and 37, just with explosive entry. So, Chuck, we are really flattered to have you here on the show tonight. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. You have a lot to say on this topic, of course. One of the big things that has come to the forefront in recent years is traumatic brain injuries. People are more aware of them, more aware that soldiers are getting them, whether it's from IED blasts. A lot of them are getting them from explosive breaching. And Chuck is a big proponent, a big believer, that we can do things better than we're doing today

and that we can do things we can make corrections that will keep soldiers safer and prevent them from having some of these injuries. So first we're going to talk a little bit about Chuck and his career. And the first question that we ask all of our guests, Chuck, is for the person's origin story. stories. Just like, you know, Spider-Man got bit by a radioactive spider, and that's how it became Spider-Man. We want to know what's Chuck's origin story. Where did you grow up? How did you find your way into the Navy and eventually into an elite unit? Well, I grew up on the East Coast and I went to Navy in 77. And as far as picking Navy and the other branch of service, it just trying to be Navy. I have to be Navy. a lot of buddies going in the Navy and thought, hey, you know what?

You might be able to serve together. So we all went in about the same time. And what happened was I ended up going to the one spot where no one else went. But when you arrive at boot camp, all the special duty assignments is the recruiters for like EOD, the diving program and Naval Special Warfare, that's when you're introduced to those programs. And if you're interested, you can do the screening test and all the other stuff they want you to make sure you're qualified. And I said, all right, you know, I think I want to do that Navy SEAL stuff. At the time, I think, unlike now, there was no literature, there was no movies, there was no common knowledge of a seal team. And UET, obviously, I think that was the one everyone know about.

So actually it was kind of surprising. I didn't know the program even existed. So when I arrived and saw that, I said, hey, I think I want to do that when I grow up. And did the screen test, they cut my orders. When boot camp was over, went straight to Buds. And survived that. I'd say Buds was one of the coolest things I ever did, you know, coming from high crime environment and all that growing up. And it's just so how professional everyone was, how organized everybody was.

Almost everybody was still Vietnam vets. So you're learning from the guys that are there and introducing you to their world. And it's the club. They have initiation, ceremonies every day all day long and are you qualified to be in the club kind of thing? And that I made it. And then from there, I went to Siltun too, a few years there. than the SEAL Team 6.

And did that pretty much all the way up to retirement. What was it like at that time? I mean, this is the early years. So you were around when the SEAL Team 6 was being stood up. You must have heard like some rumors inside the community. What was that like? How did you first hear about it? And then I guess find your way into the unit.

They actually, from the standpoint of, It kind of trickled together. They looked at specialty patoons, tried to focus on that mission. The territorial warfare was where we were supposed to be focused. And our other counterparts were also standing up also. So it kind of was coming together. There was teams in both coast, small teams.

It was decided to expand it. they elected to build it on the East Coast it started building up and by 1980 it was a command but our

our Commodore came in set us all down so here's the deal it's a program standing up and we'll be honest with you not everybody's going to be elected to go it's just the way it is if you go you go if you don't do your job it was kind of the thing they gave a little brief on it

And I said, you know, it's not something you're allowed to talk about. It's sensitive information. Okay. And if you talk about it, whether you're there or not, you're in trouble. And it was really that simple. And I end up going on deployment, and the employment ended up getting extended. So I left for about a year and a half before we came back. And by the time I came home, that's when everything was up and running officially.

the entire infrastructure and all that. So it was like, I felt like I missed something, but still, you know, the things that I was allowed to do it too at the time were awesome. And some of the stuff was really enhancing when I moved on. An opportunity finally came. You can screen. Did they want you not? And selection process.

And made it through that, made it through the selection course. and awful front. That was a pretty I don't know. It was a unique time I think after Vietnam War, you know, being in the

military was definitely not popular. Right. A peacetime steel team after all that combat you know, the budget restrictions, you know, train, we trained, but you know, you had to helicopter truck, stuff like that. And it was like, all right, you're doing stuff.

you do best you can. You know, you don't complain. Well, complain, no one cares. But our favorite saying was the only thing around here that doesn't suck or the vacuum cleaners. But, you know, but actually it was a really good assignment during all that stuff. The employment's really interesting. And some of the especially stuff I was allowed to do. I didn't know complaints being there. And when the opportunity for screening game, I was really thrilled to have that opportunity and be selected.

because a lot of my buddies from from the command and from training were there so get to work with those guys the guys I knew the best a lot of them were there so now we're we're obvious we all came together pretty intense and I like that it was everything was real there's nothing was fake everything was real the um the way it was explained to me the the mandate how it came down the seriousness of it um the the the traditional kind of safety rules and instructions for safety and governance, you know, so, you know, we train, we're ready. But all that stuff was out the window. There was a whole new mission. It required a way of doing stuff that hasn't been done before. So there was no, I mean, we did everything we can to be safe, you know, you don't get hurt and all that. But it's the traditional stuff wasn't a restriction. and the way that it played out with explosive entry

we didn't really have a range facility we had traveled one we never even considered we have to build a range to figure out how are we going to do all methods of entry we just went out and just started working on structures we never even considered

I know I didn't anyway that we had to be restricted to a range because if this is the intensity it's real it's now We have to know. We have to be ready right now. And there's a lot of stuff we didn't know.

And literally every day was a learning curve. And I think everybody that serve will think the same thing. When you're in your unit, because of threat conditions, and political conditions, everything's always changing. So you never reach a level of a plateau. I mean, you're always an R&D. You're always testing yourself. You're always looking for a better way.

You're always seen this or something better. They can make my job better in equipment. technique, it never ends. And I kind of thought, okay, when we figured this stuff out, and, you know, I don't know why I had that impression, but that never happened. It just never stopped teeny. But you can say the same thing for any unit, won't you?

Particularly especially the assignment unit. Right. Because the things they wanted us to do and all that. At that time, what was the mission that you were training for? I mean, my presumption, of course, is that Steel Team 6 is a maritime-based counterterrorism unit, but I'm sure there's much more to it than just that. But that's how it started out. And that was the focus, have a capability.

You know, earlier in the late 70s, our diplomatic missions were being ripped off. It wasn't just Iran. Our embassy in Pakistan was also a... attacked. I think that's as much common knowledge because they didn't take any hostages. You know, the guys were trapped in there for a couple days. They tore the place up.

One of the Marine guards were killed, a bunch of guys hurt, but they left. And I think had they taken hostages that, because that's the big focus. So they went looking at things, capability, how do we

handle this stuff? And that's, that's one of the things. things. I think that they were looking at because threats kept changing. You know, just have another type of rapid capability that can go quick. Like, like

the bin Laden and that's what the whole, all the components were that. So, you know, it started out. We're focused on maritime. But, you know, the water is right next to land too. So the littoral environment. So open water,

Litorial environment was our primary mission. There's a lot involved. And I don't really I know a lot's been said by others. There's documentaries and all that, but it was, that was pretty damn scary. What we had to do at night

out of the open water. It's, uh, every time we're doing certain evolutions and because there's no safety net. The stuff we had to do and you easily can really get hurt real seriously. And sorry, I'm not, I'm being generic, but

for the whole time I was there and every time we did that evolution, and if we only really did it at night, as we're approaching what we had to hit and what we had to do to get on what we had to hit, I was thinking, why in the fuck am I doing this stupid ass shit? This is just as stupid as ass shit

anybody could be doing. All right, well, you mean, it, you do your thing, all that, it's all done, go back to team room, team house, and start drinking. Make sure you know, it's like, man, we're some badass motherfuckers, right, and all that stuff.

Makes you know, you're back in the boat, and it was like, why in the hell am I doing this stupid ass shit? Yeah. And it seems like my whole career was like that every day for 20 years. It's

the things they wanted to do, you know, I don't I'm not comfortable really going those details. I know other guys have, I guess you have permission to do it. I'll just not comfortable going to those kind of details. Sorry. Would you be able to, you shared a couple pictures with me that I thought were very interesting. I wonder if you could share what you're able to about some of those deployments that you were on. It looked pretty interesting.

Well, you know, one thing, I know everybody will agree with this. You can never have enough cool happy snaps of you doing cool shit, right? Yeah. So that's it. Let's see. You know, the one sitting on the Meg that Meg 21, that was over in Sarajevo Airport. And the whole airfield was just filled with anti-personnel mine. So I had a clear path through the minefield to get on the Meg because I went to get that souvenir happy snap.

My first trip over there was really to kind of get a situation awareness thing when the UN was on the ground. And I basically just drove into the place in a rental car and say, I'm here, linked up with the NATO allies. And turned out there was a bunch of guys from other nations I've worked with, you know, from other special ops units. So, and that was it. So they got me around. We looked at stuff.

So that was my first trip. It was the UN time, the World War II. was holding pretty good. Collected things I needed. It spent about a month there. Came home and I think they didn't want me to go back. So I didn't go back until the next time was the S4 phase. So that's when that picture was.

So there wasn't any shooting. I was still, at the time I was working with naval aviation and they're flying to missions. And what's the current situation on the ground? the tack peas, the combat search and rescue, how are things evolving and stuff? I get that information and bring it back to Naval Aviation.

And I was getting a lot of information also on, you know, the mines of booby traps, how's the ground situation, turn that over to Naval Special Warfare. At least that was what was supposed to happen. I know Navy, Naval Aviation got all the reports

because I was actually attached to naval aviation at that time. Anyway, so I had to clear a thing out to the mindfield to get out into the to the mig when I looked at the I wouldn't get in the cockpit

and the cockpit was really small and not to I'm a gigantic guy or anything and I looked at that ejection seat and I was like man that thing's armed

and I go climbing in that thing and I trigger it man they're going to be splattered all over the place so that's why I didn't go in the cockpit but yeah you never want to

I don't know bar story for your buddies right Yeah, like you guys want to hear the story about how Chuck checked out in Sarajevo. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's, you activate those things on the ground. You're pretty much going to take the dirt now. So, especially if you're not strapped to it. And so I figured I'll just go ahead and let that one go. I'll let that souvenir happy snap go. Well, what did the... That's what I even remember what I sent you. One of the other pictures, it looked like you were disguised as a British soldier in Bosnia. That was during the UN days. That's how I linked up with the special ops guys from the UK.

Work with both of their units pretty much my whole career and more of the BSBS because of the maritime. But really both of the units, awesome guys. Awesome visits over there. their class act and they treat you really good and we have a lot of fun but I saw when I went to where I knew there was a um a bit that they were disposition as far as their helicopter assets when I drove in the rental car and turned out they had a team there and uh and turned out two of the guys on the team of a four are I already been working with so that was it I say they're like at the time U.S. ground forces weren't on uh we weren't

there. We're doing the air campaign. And they're like, what the heck are you doing here, you dumbass? And I was, well, you know, I'm a tourist. I'm just finding out what's going on. You know, you have a camera. See, I'm going to take some pictures. And they're like, man, you cannot go anywhere in this country looking like that because I was wearing American cameras. And they were like, here.

And they gave me all the stuff, weapons, the body armor, all the, their helmets. And connect me up with the rural Marines. The Royal Navy was flying helicopters, and we all chatted. They flew me all around the place. I could talk to all the different PACPs and all the different other assets. And that was pretty interesting. They took care of me. They got me around.

And then when I thought I had what I needed to do, I just jumped my round car and drove back to Italy. Really? Of course, I had to spend, well, Vicenza was where the headquarters was for NATO. and NATO was doing all the air campaign. So I was actually supposed to go over to the Vincenza and then get the information there. My one boss is like, hey, look, if you can figure out a way

to get it in country and find out what's up, and I'd go for it. Roger that boss, I guarantee I'll find a way. It's all I need to hear. He goes, if you do that, you just stay, you know, get what you can, come out what you can, call me, and that's cool cool he was a captain

he actually was a PBR sailor in Vietnam so he was a really great guy anyway so that's that I didn't know I was going to tell war stories I don't know we this is the team house so we love to hear all the war stories I saw some of the pictures who sent me

I looked like you were in Haiti was that back in 19 Oh yeah yeah No actually that was was right after September 11th, because I'm retired. I'm sitting home with my neighbor. He was a non-vete first calf. And we were just starting to go to the pool every day.

This is our second day to do a pool workout. And then planes are hitting the towers and all that. And I was like, well, something's going to happen. And I got a few phone calls. And, you know, it was really some cool opportunities for work. And but I just didn't really want to do some of the things that we're calling in for. And then there was a coup attempt against President Aristide. And they wanted, they have a handful of Americans that are part of their secret service on the close in, the PPU.

On the, I'm going to say old man. I almost say old man. The president and his wife. And they wanted to put a few more Americans in there. And they wanted me to actually work with the cat team. and so that was pretty cool. So that's where I was. I was in Haiti.

That was when one of the moves, when we could, we'd like to helo him because he did incredible assassination attempts, not threats, attempts. So whenever we can move him by helo, that was preferable, particularly on long moves. No, he's the president.

He's going to go around, there's stuff. And I'll tell you, that was, I was really, really, I don't know, I was really impressed with the Haitian people. you know that there's a very poor country and the courtesy of everybody was just just amazing I mean they're very very very polite

is there violence there too oh yeah it's like any place else you have the violent crime area but the Haitian people in general which is so nice and I really enjoyed working for the president you know his wife well we're taking care of them so they're nice to us I guess I guess that comes with the

with the job you know the they kind of when it treats you nice I think we're up north up at Cap Haitian and we're we're loading them up to take them home so that's what that photograph was

because he goes in that executive bird and the cat team we fly into Trailbird which is UH1 so we always had the cat team following him just in case his heel goes down

we have a capability to secure him so that's what that picture was yeah Chuck, what was it, if I can rewind, you said that when you were at Team 2 being like a post-Vietnam era military, that things like the budget and public sentiment, but particularly the budget, you guys didn't have a large budget at the time or a lot of money to do the various things that you guys? No one did. No, you had absolutely nobody in the military had like the work time. operational budget. You know, public

perception, because they elected Vietnam War. The president, he wanted to scale back the military. You know, that's, if it's his call, he scaled back to Navy, our ships. Because when Ronald Reagan was elected, it was one of the first things did was

built back up the fleet. So there was budget restrictions, all that. And so, you know, I look at equipment like nowadays, and the technology and what the guys have is, just amazing. Because back then we had M16s

or the short version. We called Car 15. AK shotguns, a pistol, bullets, some hand grenades, Clayboard mines, exporils us. And that was it. I forgot. A decel battery flashlight. Waterproof.

That was like, that was it. We had our dive gear and a bunch of camis. And it's load out was easy, two bags. Yeah. But it's all you need to get the job done that was being asked of us. And we didn't. So that wasn't a restrictive thing at all.

You know, there's no TPS. None of that stuff was there yet. There's no, nothing was digital. You know, I think back, the NVGs were the Starlight scope, the Gen 1 stuff. And when we've, I think it was 1980.

I was on deployment. We, we just received the first sets of the LST Fox. And I was point man for my, my platoon, for my squad. and to use those on a training exercise

and against Op4 was one of those big NATO things and it was pitch blackout and I thought that was the most magical thing never happened I could see

the rest of the squad couldn't see they had to they actually had to hang on each other I know a lot of the operators have been in those kind of dark environments

where you have to hang on to the person in front of you yeah so I could see I's eyes in yours for everyone sneaking into the target we needed to hit

But I thought that was the most amazing thing that I could see in the dark. And I was like, you put on a pair of LST5s after using Gen 3 and Gen 4 stuff. It's like, how the hell can you see in this stuff? Yeah. But again, that will stay at the art back then. Yeah, I thought that one picture you shared with me where you're carrying a G3 rifle with an M203 grenade launch on it. I mean, that's very, that's not standard kit. no that was back

the old command and part of our infrastructure the place was really they designed that thing I walked in it was already up and running it was still the early years but some things were already figured out it wasn't completely from scratch but there was still a lot more to do but the infrastructure of

the people they selected for support and other organic things we had a full machine shot or not machine shop the armors and everything that they wanted, they had every machine. In fact, they started doing machining. They started buying the mills and all that stuff.

One of the guys are already there because the MP5 became a primary weapon because we're thinking CQB. We started out with handguns because water was the revolvers, the stainless revolvers because of saltwater. And then really quickly it was like, okay, you know, this mission is going to be bigger than what it's intentionally to be and we need to start beefing up the armament. There's going to be the regular stuff just like everything else. So we have to stay prepared for all that

too. And the guy who made the deal with H&K we brought everything that happened, not just the MP5. So it was there for a few years. I ran the like all the weapon training and explosive training for my assault team

and we had these G3s and no one's ever shooting them. And to have everybody in a assault team with a 7662 why not? So we have our machine gunners who was the M60E and everyone else you carry the G3

with or without the 203. So that was a retrofit that our gunsmithed. Wow. Wow. And I'm glad we did that because you never know because you're all 762 that's a lot of bullets, big bullets. Yeah. And going from a 30 round magazine to a 20 round magazine, it took a little bit of discipline to, you know,

to have not have that law in the fire when you're changing mags, when you're practicing your contact drills and stuff like that. I didn't think I was going to be an issue, but it really turned out to be an issue. It didn't take, just practice. Your timing's different going, you know, 10 less rounds. Yeah. But you get all the guys in line.

It's just a lot of firepower. Yeah. But that's what that was. I figured, hey, if we have them, we'll make everybody use them, be proficient with them like we are with all our other stuff. Why not? I don't think anyone ever operationally deployed with them. That was just a small period. We did it.

Okay, cool. And we went back to the Car 15s, and eventually that turned into the M4, you know, the shorter version. Yeah. So that's that. So when you... So when you went to Steel Team 6, And you went from a branch or a job with not a big budget to SEAL Team 6, where they obviously weren't suffering from those same budgetary constraints, right?

No, and that was the other issue, too, that besides, you know, no restrictions on the safety stuff. I mean, again, we try to be safe, no budget restrictions. that, you know, the way it was explained to me, that no one ever wants to hear, well, we didn't, we couldn't do that because we didn't have enough money. Because that was an issue like everywhere. There wasn't enough money. And it wasn't there.

So I won't say it was an unlimited budget, but it's, in my eyes, it was because we never went without anything we needed. Budget was not a limiting factor. And it was design that way. So during a time where, you know, the budget restriction, for everyone else. It definitely wasn't hitting that entire program. So, I mean, how often you get that? And the other thing, too, we could buy anything we want. There was, we didn't have to go through any approving authority. We just go out and buy.

We had the authority to do that. So that was kind of interesting to have, to be that young, to, if I have an idea, and the way the place was set up, the culture of Dick was, if you have a idea, you set it up, it doesn't matter what rank you are, you run it. You do everything from A to Z. So whatever entails. You're doing message traffic, you know, you know, folks help you. Guys do all that stuff.

But you had to do everything from A to Z. And plan all logistics. And man, if you screw up, you're going to hear from everybody on your team. But that was cool. You didn't have to, but if you wanted to, the environment was there and the opportunity was there. So any ID you had,

you sold it through the chain of command, it was supported. It was pretty much like that the whole time I was there. And, you know, things grow. They get rapidly grow. And you're changing with the times,

all that stuff, and the kinds of things that they wanted us to do, you know, really, they just kept expanding. Yeah. And you still had your base. basic mission, you know, you still have to do stuff like right now. Everybody's

supporting all the combat theaters, global fears. And we still have troops on standby all around the globe because there's all kind of hotspots around the world so something can pop up any time. Right. So anyway, that's so. And how did you? I'm not real, I'm a boring storyteller because I purposely don't want to devolve certain details because I'm really not sure what I sure shouldn't be talking about. And I just want to respect the guys that are on the duty right now. And I want to respect the guys I've worked with. And so I feel more comfortable by the way.

So I'm sorry if I'm boring, guys. No, no, it's great. And we and our audience understands that, you know, there are things that, you know, either you can't divulge or you don't feel comfortable with. And that's totally fine. how did you, once you got to seal Team 6, like did you already have a background in breaching and explosives when you're back at Team 2? And once you got to Team 6, how did you get more into that? Well, two, like all the two, all special operations were broken down in platoons or whatever, A-teens.

And you have your specialies. Calm, medicine, it exposes, the weapons. Well, everyone's kind of organized the same way. And for me, too, it was explosives and the small arms. And pretty much the training for all the basic infantry tactics, you know, the stuff that you're doing in the field. So getting the extra, doing the extra time with the exposes and all that, there really wasn't a need for entry because of the mission. And that changed when I went to the command. Obviously, they're involved in explosive entry.

I was already the explosive guy from my battalion and the guys that already knew me that were there I just fell right back into that responsibility the organization was a little bit different but you still had the same you had your medics you had your column guys but it was still that same kind of thing

but the actual the platoon structure was a little bit different there but it was just a little bit organ, it's a way to manpower was just laid out in your teams but it just didn't the explosive stuff was just laid right on there entry was part of it, but all the other stuff, the combat demolitions, all the other things that we need to know, underwater, things that we already learned, the booby traps, you know, offensive, defensive mining, how do you get through the fortifications? That kind of stuff wasn't as much at first because of the mission.

It wasn't really needed as much as it was, too. But the entry, that's where it started. So within a year after being there, because guys were already doing it and that's when it became a full-time duty for me that was 37 years ago. And it was kind of interesting how it was because everybody there is already training in exposes.

Compared to some other units, it's just the exposes guys or it exposes guys, but everybody in all commands is already trained and exposes. So in a way, we had a lot of of capability to go out and, and collect data, look at things. We were interacting with our counterparts, trading information, training experiences.

And we felt, so when I got there, the guys that really started, they kind of started out that way because it was small. They were all doing something else, but everyone else is just carrying it on. And when we started working with our counterparts, you know, a bunch of my buddies, the way they're organized was more efficient. Because, yeah, everybody can do it. Everybody's doing it. But nobody's writing anything down.

Nobody's keeping track of what did we learn. And we had a whole lot of replication or duplication of effort. And then we had holes. And that's when we realized we have to get a little bit more organized, we need to do a better job at documenting and keeping track of, okay, what have we got figured out? And what else don't we know? And then how do we be safe? Because that was a learning curve that just never ended because it never stops.

And charge design, things are available to you, how to be safe. Because each urban detonation, it's its own separate reality. Right. They're not the same. It's not a training facility. You know, you know your training facility, whether it's your tactics or your methods of entry, but each urban detonation in real time and all the combat vets know this and all the SWAT officers know this. there's always something different.

There might be some similarities. And we learn to see things not just limited on overpressure. And that's one of the, we didn't realize it at a time, but when I look back now in hindsight, how did our culture just not evolve efficiently is because the ranges. Because this went old for years, and towards the back into the 80s,

the evolving threat conditions, stuff like that, is the need for explosive entry expand throughout special ops it was justified law enforcement all that stuff but unlike how we were mandated the rest of the units weren't

so they didn't have they had to be on the range they didn't have the authority to go out in the city they have the authority to just go out and buy whatever they want in comparison and at the time I had no actually no idea how relevant this could be

decades in the future. Right. The, um, I had another thing that we had, that was a different, what another, I think now,

because of TVI, we never wore hounds. If, the helmet we have, the ballistic helmet can't stop, but they're launching in us, what's the sense of wearing it? It's,

all the crap we have to carry. What's the point? There's a period we didn't wear body armor because it didn't stop with their shooting in us. So what's the point? And, so, hey, it's like,

you know, find some body armor and they, they start looking around and busts some really nice stuff. But we didn't wear a ballistic helmet until about 1990. So, and I think that's going to be important because now we're talking about TBI and what the helmet can do under the right angles and circumstances and how overpressure is traveling towards you.

That's an issue now. But, man, back then, it was... Being a parent can be really challenging. Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five with free support services to help them on their parenting journey. Everyone deserves someone they can turn to for help with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. Being a parent can be really challenging.

It's normal to feel uncertain about whether you're doing the right things to raise healthy and happy children. That's why Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five with free support services to help them build confidence in their parenting journey. Everyone deserves to have someone they can turn to for support with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today.

There's no idea. Right. And it's something I'd like to tell everyone because I'll forget. I've been doing this 37 years. We've learned in real time. We saw everything. We saw the hazards. We weren't limited to focus on overpressure,

which is an obvious hazard. We can see the other things that were going to hurt us and not just hurt us during detonation but affect our tactical response because it's all real because how a like your your your your facades work on range is not how they react in real time and if you don't see it in real time there's things that you know you have a perfect breach you could charge you do it needed to but sometimes you have obstacles you have to clear because you're never going to have always precise information sometimes you have to so you have to work in that, but work in manual tools and power tools is also, that's how we figured out the

misfires because we're having them too. And all those things came into play because it's not just the breaches need to know this, it's everybody on the team needs to know how to this. And everybody was a breacher on our teams. Everybody carried a manual tool of some sort. So no matter where you were, anywhere on a target, and how big it was, you always had MOUE capability. Because everybody's demo guys, we train everybody to carry a degree of targets. The actual breaches, we carried a lot more. Right. And a lot of the bigger stuff.

So that's how we worked that out. Because I don't know all the experiences of everybody. Here's a quick lesson to learn. We're talking about manual tools. We came up with the idea of that backpack. And my recommendation is don't use that. backpack, spread out your tools amongst your team. Because whenever you need a tool, whoever has that backpack is going to be nowhere near you. Okay, so we learned that the hard way.

We thought it was a good idea, but it turned out it really wasn't as practical as as as a scene. Because I see those things every now and now and I do a lot, police training and stuff like that. It's like, hey man, can I got an idea for you. You might want to listen to this, but. Yeah, no, we benefited. The intensity of training, I mean, we were, I mean, we were, I mean, There were long days, just non-stop training, and we really were good shots. And those little things, we worked out really quick. Once we kind of figured out a basic concept, we just practiced it over and over and over. We always carried the radios, we never turned them on, because when you need a radio, they never work.

So let's work everything out, loss of comp. Okay? Almost all the breaching, we induced a misfire. or an entry denial. Forcing the guys, how do we position, how we cover ourselves, how we clear off schools, got hurt each other. Because that almost came an issue. When I, first time I saw a guy swing a holy tool and didn't look behind him about

bringing somebody with that big old horn. Yeah. He was like, okay, we need to coordinate this a little bit better. Obviously, we get excited. But these are all things when we really practice. And when we had operations and we had problems with the. O.E. That drilling

and everybody knew what to do we had a couple of misfires. It didn't matter. Guys were right on it. It didn't matter. We didn't have charge it all. We were in there so quick. It was the nine or not your mission. Other than credibility for the breaches. Man, you spent all his money on your

damn misfire man. What are you thinking about? So oh, sorry. No, no, that's good. That won't happen again. Chuck, I I'd love to see, you know, you have some stuff to present also about this subject, about explosive breaching. Before we get into that, I want to take some fewer questions.

There's about 200 people. They had a few questions for you. Oh, okay. Let's see, here. R.S, thank you. Alex Clinton. Okay, so this is interesting. Alex asks, is Dev Drew's training similar to Kags operator training?

course, but you corrected me on the phone this week. You said, no, I wasn't in dev group. I was in SEAL Team 6. Maybe you want to step there? Why did you say that? It's just another say. I think things change a lot and I don't know how information gets out in the public. We were really pretty good at just not talking about. Yeah. But how information gets in public and there's just a lot of confusion. For me, I was at Celtine 6, all my orders, all those. that stuff. That's what it says. And when I left, things changed. And this

is how it works at the command. When you go, you go. Okay, you do your time, pass on. As things change, okay, it's not my business. Okay. Unless they want me to come back for some reason, it's none of my business. So I really can't speak for how

things happen after I left. So, you know, I think as far as the question goes, there was similarities but there are also differences and I think all that came from how did we how were the models

built up and from from my understand because the original commanding officer at Bragg he did a tour with the SAS and the SAS were already up and running and all that and it was a awesome model to build a capability off of and that's how it turned out.

I know that's how it started. And so there was a lot of that. And the guys were looking at things and things were modifying. And how we evolved and watching how our counterparts evolved was pretty interesting, particularly after operations. What's been working, what's not working, and evolved from that. And I think every unit is doing the exact same thing. When I was in Afghanistan, Iraq, when it started out,

And then as guys are coming back and how they were changing with threat conditions, I think everybody was doing that because that's real. And that's the focus of the time. If I'm there, I'm not going to worry about some other mission that we're responsible for. Maybe when I go back home, I'm going to work about staying alive right now. And what do I have to do to stay alive? And if we need to evolve with how they're changing their threats, and we need to evolve.

And I think everybody that went over there or any other combat zone, everybody did that. Everybody was changing. So here's a question from Joseph. He says, to what degree was there a real rivalry between Delta, Seel Team 6,

and the FBI's hostage rescue team when you were in? And how often would you work together overseas? How often overseas? We're gone. The time I was there, I was on paper married. probably about nine and a half years

and I was actually home like about two years of it on and off. Maybe a little over two years. So we were gone all the time. Rivalries, you know what? No, guys are guys. And there's all these people that just want to give you a hard time no matter what.

It doesn't matter what you belong to. We have our assault teams. You have that going on the assault team. Then the assault team's going on. each other. And it's the same on every other units. But the guys we interact, we work together, and everybody, we joke, we joke, we

give each other a hard time, but you know, the respect was there. And I think where, if there's any kind of rivalries and stuff like that, that impact the stuff at higher level, because now you're getting up there. And I don't know why they would do something like that. I'm just kind of feeling that maybe

some of that was going on, but You know, the guys in the trenches, yeah, we give each other a hard time, but man, we took care of each other. We worked together. I think a unique thing was the breaches. We really try to get together multiple times a year of all the counterparts, stay current, and we really bonded. All the breaches really bonded during that time frame we're there. And we were together for years. So we really forged some lasting friendships.

And I should mention you worked with. previous guest of the show, our friend, Mike Vining. Absolutely. In fact, I've rather put it this way. Mike was a friend. He was a teacher and a mentor. And the same with the counterpart, the guy that ran on the federal side. I mean, I still stay in touch with the guys and they're still preview. There's still SMEs for me to reach out to and I don't understand what I'm seeing, anything with explosives.

I mean, the guys are just that knowledgeable. But both of those guys, I really looked up to them. I didn't consider myself a peer with them. I considered more of my instructors and my mentors. And they were just awesome to work with. The knowledge was just unbelievable. And my teammates, gosh, we just had so many smart guys, all looking at problems and solutions.

man I just worked with some really brilliant people I was really lucky and I because I can't say it made me look smart because I just am what I am I just I don't feel like I ever invented or or figured out a real problem compared to the other guys man they just knew what they were doing and I just I just so sponge teach me and but I looked at how do we make this stuff safe because I looked at when we're making things initially they're like prototypes they're like um theory proof concepts

we have a design it works but now it's a design that's big okay i can't skydive this i can't scuba dive it i can't fast rope it so how we now take this thing we know it works and make us so we can package it and then and do all the stuff we need to do and that's where i you know i did a lot of that But, you know, everybody was doing that too. So I felt good with that part, my role. But figuring out the new stuff, nah, that wouldn't me. I just happened to be around the guys that really knew that stuff and just soaked that in. But getting there tactically, how do we redesign things?

That's one of the things. My two partners in particular, you know, now we have to make this standard because we have kind of standard basic tactics, but we need to make the breaching standard. Okay, how are we going to set this up? How are we going to do it? What do we do for this emergency? Entry to Nile, compromise. What do we do for sneaking up? What we do for coming in? You know, the LZ's hot. Okay, didn't he have to hit the place? I'm sure a lot of folks know what that's like. So all these different variations. And that's really, once we had the configurations, then besides the safety, we had to really, really figure that out. Again, all that took time. But we had time. Yeah.

And I wanted everybody on one standard with that because we're dealing with explosives. And there are times that you're signed here, but you're working with your other guys too. And you can also be working with the counterparts at any time. So we wanted to be comfortable with each other. Oh. Joseph also asks, how active were officers, troop commanders during your era? Did their role get minimized as time went?

Don and if so why? Okay, I was When I was there, I was in the Navy. That's an army term. So there were troops for Bo crews. Bo crews were pretty much run by the enlisted.

We had a team leader, team chief. We might have one or two more officers and no other rest is run by the enlisted. We pretty much a good part of the time. What we were

slide to have on paper. We weren't always manned. And so they didn't have the full compliment. It could have been a more. But the way it worked for us is the Navy's policy is every two years officers must rotate. And I always thought

that was, that really hurt the command. Now you get the guys in there, they're great guys. In two years, they have to be gone. And then it cycles over. And that was any of the commands. I never really liked how they did that because you don't really get time to have corporate knowledge on all the intricacies. So, you know, that was the senior enlisted or the corporate knowledge.

And another interesting thing at the time is you had positions of authority not based on necessarily your rank, but on your experience. And nobody had any problem with that. it wasn't like oh i'm this rank i have to be in charge of this there was none of that everybody's in agreement you know let the experience no matter who they are take care of what whatever they should be doing and i thought that was kind of unique because it's not like that anywhere else so i thought that was kind of a unique thing that was uh for us but the the corporate knowledge the guys that ran the training the guys who designed the tactics mans of tactics were to the senior enlisted guys.

You know, the officers planned emissions, the officers run things, they do all that, but they didn't they can have input, but they didn't have they couldn't just change stuff. They get all the input in the world, but pretty much that was all driven

by the senior enlisted. And that might be kind of a unique thing. I don't know if that's still going on right now, but it worked. And it worked, and it made everything good for everybody. We get our officers, We work hard. We all look out for each other because we know he's going to be gone in a couple years.

To the best we can. And then because we won't get another guy. Keep it all together. So, I mean, just the talent that they picked when I was there, it's just unbelievable. I think that really led to a lot of our successes.

And when we had problems, how we recover from problems really damn quick. Yeah. It was really tense guys, fun guys to work with. No, my mind being gone. no one of mine working long days. But that was the mission.

And it was time for cocktail. And I guess we were known to have a cup. Allegedly. Yeah, there's a lot been said about that part too. It's really interesting to me, and maybe Jack gets us, too, is that for us, all we've ever really known of demo, like breaching was always the primary role of demolition. We inherited his experience.

Exactly. And it's really interesting to think of going back to a time when demolitions was like what you were saying or explosives was what you were saying, which is booby traps, you know, taking down naval obstacles or whatever. or the sort of application of explosives to explode. And then trying to take that knowledge or trying to figure out, well, when I want to open this door, do I just put a quarter block of C4 on it? Is that what opens this door? And, you know, this wooden door, this metal door,

this door, this lock this way. And now we have so many innovative, and not just with the types of explosives we have, but like you look at a water impulse charge, you know, like taking IV bags and sticking an explosive behind, so the water pressure opens the door. Like, it's amazing to think of that evolution.

And when you were working with all the different teams, not just your experience, but like working with Delta and HRT and these things, how were you guys developing these ideas? Were you talking to explosive experts in universities and engineering companies? How is that happening? Sergeant Major Mike and the federal side counterparts, they're all the OD Techs, combat vets, Vietnam, already had a lot of knowledge.

We had dual assignments, EOD and SEALS. It was a different NEC. And already a lot of knowledge. And they also had access to, you know, well, other nations were grateful enough to show us what they put together. We had some police units, rather, the gracious they were doing programs.

They were gracious enough to show us what they were doing. In fact, that's how we were finding a lot of our structures was through these police departments that we had some relationships with. But the stuff was in the inventory. When I arrived there, they already, because we could buy commercial stuff where, you know, the military union just can't go out buy commercial explosives, but we could.

So the flexible, linear shape charts. Copper and lead is what we bought. Other guys were using copper. We're kind of, you know, I don't know why. It's like, man, okay, it's breaching. We got to use this stuff. Cut. All right.

Okay, cool. We had decode and explosive sheet. That stuff was already in the system. We weren't in C4, composition C4, for some heavier stuff. But we did initially a lot with the flexible linear shape charge,

but then we started realizing I'm going to start thinking about the insertion methods. Something big and rigid, it's not going to be practical. And plus the fragmentation hazard, man, we get fanged. And the copper, you get fanged with copper. It's pretty serious. And it's serious anyway, but the copper will go right through any kind of body armor. Level 3A, it rips through that stuff like you're wearing a t-shirt.

And that was really dangerous stuff. Cuts great, but it's, we looked at risk. Being a parent can be really challenging. Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five with free support services to help them on their parenting journey. Everyone deserves someone they can turn to for help with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today.

Being a parent can be really challenging. Child and family resource network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five with free support services to help them on their parenting journey. Everyone deserves someone they can turn to for help with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. Compared to if we need to use a little bit more explosives to get the work effect like with explosives sheet,

we evolved it, we played with it, we made charges, and we evolved from that to make it safer for us. You have a little bit more blast, but we know how to be safe from the blast, but we completely eliminated the ballistic fragmentation problem because getting hit with that crap sucks. And so it was that kind of stuff. So it was a stuff in the system,

And then other things became available commercially by ECT, which now they think they call it Lohas Flex. We found that. It was a, that was a Royal Ordinance was making that. And then there was a company called North American Explosus where we're buying that. And we liked that because already had the adhesive on it. It didn't have the fragmentation because the lead also makes lead vapors with the fragmentation. So it's a breathing hazard. ECT gave us a cut capability that we can roll up, get it inserted, we can hand place it.

So we like that. And then the explosive sheet and a deck cord. And they really pretty much turned into workhorse charts. We had multiple push-blast cut configurations, as said, for what we need. And those basic configurations went a really long way for us. One thing I like now when I train police is pushing fluid. man, this stuff is powerful. Really get a lot of good work effect, but the bulk and the way just wasn't practical.

I know the federal side of counterparts, they looked, they did a lot with pushing fluids. But, you know, again, their assertion was way different than what we were doing. So it's a, that was practical for them. I mean, we still practiced what we did and all that, but it really wasn't practical force to use that compared to other configurations. But it's pretty, that's, the shape charge is really what we were buying

from off the commercial market. Because the rest of stuff in the inventory covered what we need it. Chuck, you... Is that in the discretion? No, that absolutely answers the question. Yeah. You had some visuals to share with us

to talk about the modern state of explosive breaching and some things you want to share with us and with the special ops and the law enforcement community. Do you tell us a little bit about what you're going to be showing us right now? And you can pull it up on screen whenever you're ready, Chuck. Okay, it's coming up.

What I want to show you guys is our culture has when the mission requirement was to expand and you know, it happened to be trapped

on the range. It seemed logical, right? Exposes range. And guys are making ranges. They're making some nice ones and all that. But the problem with the range is there's hazards there that you don't see other than overpressure. And the safety guidance was the use of K equation because, again, a lot of different units, they had their EOD guys too. And another requirement to think how it went down, the way it was explained to me, was not only were they had to remain on range, that you have instructions, you're supposed to safety instructions.

So what was already on the books was how EOD uses the K equation for safety for UXO disposal. And so the EOD guys are like, well, you know, we'll pick four PSI, and we use K equation and figure out where that is. And it appears to work good on the range. And what happened was

as things progress, I think at some point it's like, hey, you know, we have to get in fast. You know, we have to be close. We have to get in fast. And at some point, I apologize to have to bounce around a little bit, but I try to stay on focus. But at some point, somebody's, I don't know who it was or when it was,

but the idea of using the shield and half in that distance. And that's where the real danger started to happen. because overpressure does not scale symmetrically. When it radiates, it's the strongest at the detonation point. And then because of speed, speed is stronger when it's faster. And as when rarefaction kicks in, starts to slow down and get weaker. And then those increments kind of space out. And I kind of sort of have a feeling that guys thought with their safety gear,

if they have to distance they're at APSI. And later on in 2011, that was actually a, a study done on that at one of our services schools, and they found out they were getting hit, the fractured load behind the shield with like 13 to 14 PSI was the average. And so, and this has been going on for years. The idea, we have to get in there fast because it's an operation. Really started, guys were getting it, getting hurt. The bell ringing hits, the way it was described to me.

So the natural thing I think was to engage our research professionals. We have an incredible research industry in this country. And working with these people, it's just so amazing how brilliant they are. But the problem was, I'm calling an artificial environment is your range. And what I see now in hindsight from those days and all these days, in all these decades. And I think this is where we're in a trap. This is what I like to help.

Anybody wants to know, I'll show you how to get this trap. We didn't know how to task the research folks for what we really need it. Because we weren't seeing it because that artificial environment. And consequently, in research, they're also practitioners of artificial environment.

In research, you have to have controlled conditions, you know, define a problem. Here's all the conditions, all to control that. Here's my methodology. Here's my test. Here's my results. Peer review.

So they're also part of that artificial environment because that's how you do research. On top of that, they don't have your operational experience. First-hand experience. So they don't really understand your needs. Okay. So they can't read your mind. They're going to look at your problem the way they see it in their theory and their world inside that intellectual trap of the artificial environment.

So the tasking didn't come effective. And this is what happened. It took a long time for me to figure us out. When the tasking goes to the research guys and it's flawed, you just set them up for failure. You gave them conditions that it can't be done. And I started seeing us when I was doing contract work and research and seen it from that side and seen the test plans come in.

because test plans will come in flawed. And guys want results. And you look at the test plans, because I'd go back a little bit, research is also a business. I want you to think about the reality of research is a business. And what does a business mean? It's designed to be government resources, working with private sector to figure out solutions. And the reason why they make that a business arrangement, is because it's actually an incredibly efficient way to get to solution with the least amount of money

because they make it competitive. And it's viciously competitive because if you don't produce, you might not have a job. And I think I see some elements of that too, because if we set up that industry, we set up those people for failure. and because of that part of it too, you know, they're fighting for their survival. We're fighting for our lives with bullets and IEDs and stuff like that, but they're fighting for survival,

you know, to sustain for their families. And that's a different kind of horror because when I worked at research and seeing that shit, it was like, I hated that part. Research was awesome, but I really hated guys coming to work

and just total fear. Because any day they can walk in, they say, uh, funding's cut. Good luck. literally just like that is that vicious it's like holy crap it's like guys get because i talk to the guys it was happening to it's like you know most smart guys you come in you're already looking for your next job

because you don't know your funny school gut so to come into work every day not knowing you have a job that was weird and uh because we're more government service we know we have a job we know we have a paycheck we know we have based on our pay grade we know our family support we know we have all these things all this infrastructure so we can be focused on our mission and And to be in that environment, it was, it was, I didn't like that part of it. I think it's important for operators to note because if we task these professionals unintentionally, if we task them and it's set up to not win, okay, that's, they haven't had adverse effects back on us because they have vicious competition.

But I was going to get some examples and stuff like that as we go along. But we didn't know that when we were on act of duty until. our breach and cell, we're writing a test plans, you know, we have to manage the contracts and how that community was treating us because of their survival. It was a steep learning curve.

We got fanged. We got ripped off and there's nothing we could do about it other than we could just go someplace else or whatever, but which is usually what we did because there's plenty of folks to contract. But putting in that perspective of we don't want to set up people for failure.

We don't want to fail. We don't want to be hurt, but we can't do that to them. And if we don't understand that and how we're tasking, then it's not going to be a win. And that not win is going to come back on us. So I just want to put that out there real quick. It's really important to understand. And folks who are listening to the podcast, you might want to switch over and check us out on YouTube tonight because Chuck has some visuals and some video that he's going to share with us. You know what? I have a whole different way of doing this. I have a bunch of slides that will be visuals for some other things I want to show you.

So I'm going to show you how we end up getting in trouble. The first is the video. I just want to let you know trying to get this thing. Go to video. There we go. Well, I'll use K equation. This is improper training from a range. Guys come home thinking that they have the impression.

They learned everything that they learned. And this is what's happening to us. Artificial environment, overpressure, K equation, half your distance. Well, K equations for external detonations, it's only for instant overpressure. And if you're in an amplifying environment outside or inside, it's not designed for that. So what happens is, you notice Dyneap. You're going to do how you're trained. So this is how the guys are trained.

They have a building. They have a charge on the door. And you're too close. They're half in their distance. using the equation they shouldn't be used. So this is what happens because there's more going on and just overpressure. Because we're in amplifying environment.

What comes off is amplified. Okay. Now, I slowed it down. We have multiple hazards. Okay, we're already in an amplifying environment, but the guys weren't trained to recognize that. They didn't. It was automatic.

It's going on for a long time. Calculate this number, stand right here. Right. And there's no education about other things that are going to happen. Okay, because we never used that equation for that. Because we figured out where to be with our bodies. We basically blow ourselves up to the point where, I mean, some days, urinate blood.

And thank goodness, the non-vets taught me how to self-medicate and everything turned out okay. Thanks for me. Now, there's other things going on. This is a chemical reaction. So we have that exothermic. You can see how intense that flames came shooting out. Yeah. It's so fast.

You really can't see that with your. your naked eye. And, or you see it, it's not that catastrophic. The, um, all that crap on the ceiling. We have overpressure hitting a drop ceiling. Shockwave is the energy transmission in, in the solid stuff, the walls floor and ceiling. And that vibrates our structure that makes things break loose and drops on us. The shockwave in the wall, see how the guy on the right, right here is leaning on the wall.

Yeah. Okay, we don't want our guys leaning on the wall because you're heavier charge. you can rupture organs. So teach you guys, don't lean on the wall, particularly for your heavier charges, smaller ones you might get away of it. That's pretty powerful. What I do in my program,

I have guys just put their hand lightly on the wall when we do detonations so you can feel that thing. It's pretty intense. So we have all these other things going, oh, then stuff dropping, stuff projecting at them. The lights are going down on them. Yeah, the lights. Now, I've been in internal detonations,

and you, where we go, where we're safe. Okay, ceiling tiles can still drop. The other equation, while we're here, the other equation while you're internal, the Weibel equation, if you calculate a certain PSI, it's okay to be in a space. And what the equation doesn't recognize,

first off, K equation, this is the wrong environment. Okay, now back to Weibel, that residual internal overpressure is not given you an accurate indication of all the amplified overpressure and all the other non-overpressure hazards to the team. Okay, the equation is not designed to do that.

And somehow that got introduced. We saw, we were looking at it and I was kind of using it, can I predict property damage? Because when I left active duty and I built my program and trained police, then there's liabilities. I never really looked at the kind of property damage,

breaking windows and stuff like that when I was in active duty because it didn't really, it wasn't an issue for us, at least that's what we thought. Law enforcement, there's liability. You're liable for all your damage. And that's another thing gets law enforcement in trouble because on a range, you're not learning how to identify property damage that you're liable for.

I can give you three instances, okay, where the property damage was, the price tag was about $2.5 million. Okay, so that's, you know, for police agency, that's significant shit because of range training. They're not taught how to identify that. One thing we were focused on is what's going on inside the room because we were liable for folks of, you know, we have to go rescue.

We were liable for their safety. And if we kill them with a charge, if we hurt them with a charge, you know, that's going to be potential liability for us. But we never looked at the other side. And because of that, when I do police, you know, because there might be so. please for guys think about going to law enforcement and you'll probably end up being on a SWAT team. We also have to study what happens inside the room. Are you going?

Okay, what are the conditions in there? Overpressured, projected debris in particular. Where are those patterns? Where they go? What comes at us? One of those patterns. And you can't learn any of the stuff on the range. So I wanted to show that real quick.

I want to show you some quotes from some research that I was asked to volunteer on. there was a project, a funded project, to evaluate the K equation and Weibble's equation to how it was being used in explosive entry. That kind of started in 2005. I was asked to volunteer participate and say, hey, no problem. I think I have a lot to say on this. As it progressed, they also want to characterize charge performance. and when I saw the test plan, it was in January 2007,

the way the test plan was written, you're going to talk about test plans, right? It was going to be, they're going to definitely confirm the equations are safe. We're going to definitely know this about charge performance. And I sent an email to all the participants that were the volunteers and the guys that were contractors and said, look, you know, I don't think you're going to make this, guys.

You're not going to, this isn't going to happen. You're not going to, the way they wanted to validate the equations, the calculated answers is with instrumentation, overpressure recording instrumentation. And they thought that was going to work because here's, when you task, they had a preconceived, um, um,

oh gosh, they preconceived that they were right. Uh-huh. The whole thing was designed around were right. Okay, so the wording of the whole plan was already flawed, but also from preconceived concepts that this is going to happen. And when it ended up happening, that didn't. Okay, the equations weren't in agreement with the instrumentation. So, and I pointed that all out, and I'm going to read you a little thing, the email response from a guy running the thing, because this is important to know, guys, because how do we get into this mess?

We're getting hurt. Because the equations were already going on for years right now. and we never use the equations this way, so I always wondered, why are we doing this? Because when I talk to guys, we're talking about their bellwringing hits and stuff like that, but I'm talking to other guys that were like running training, and I'm not hearing any of that stuff from them.

Okay, the intent of the programs to characterize breach and charges in terms of performance and safety and validate the safety formula breaches use. As you saw in the contract, this is what's in the contract. It is fairly general, but it entails quite a bit. And I think based on your comments, by comments to the group, my email comments, we most likely won't be able to validate the formulas. Okay, this is January 2007. We may see some results where the formulas may keep people safe.

And, okay, you're contracted to do this. Absolutely, do it. Collect the data. Let's see what we get. If there's something, we think something may look like it's safe, okay, let's focus on that. If it looks like we're not validating the formulas, that's good too. Because now we know we shouldn't be using the formulas, the equations. So, one more sentence.

However, we do want this program to have positive benefits and contributions to the community. Therefore, if you think, talking to me, if you think we need to rethink and re-scope this effort, then this is what we need to do. And so I know they're not going to validate stuff. I'm like, okay, fine. This time, because the product, the report and all that is doing December, that never happened. They did the testing. I wasn't there for the testing, and they created it.

The object, too, was to create a product, the handbook. And it was supposed to be a for-sale product as a quick reference. You know, it was, I don't know a lot of stuff was already pre-written with the pre-written. with the preconceived notion that they were going to validate the equations or not. Okay, but it's supposed to be a quick reference for breaches and all that. It's for sale product. And again, that's fine. Government and private sector or other elements of doing that is totally acceptable.

That's how research works and it's a good model. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's no, nothing fancy or nothing unethical about it. Okay, but on page 73. free of that in page on Appendix B there's two paragraphs it should be noted and this

is in the book that's for sale that you can buy right now. It should be noted that while the formula has a story, a K equation in this case, has been used for explosive breaching purposes, is based on data of much larger charges and spherical and hemispherical

shapes, detonating an open air and not in contact with the building components such as a wall or door. The results of the explosive breach and characterization handbook test program showed definite trends and indicated that this formula does not

accurately characterize overpressure environment for all breaching charges. Okay. When I finally saw it, because my name's in that book, I was a contributor, and I saw this after the fact and it went out there and there's

some things to prove free and stuff like that, but I never saw the entire end product that was going to go out. This stuff happened. And on page 103, it's basically the same statement for the inside equation. And I'm thinking, you know, they're not valid.

Why is that book out there? Right. So, Chuck, just to summarize real quick, what you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong, what you're saying is that we're using mathematical equations to calculate explosive breaches that are the equations were taken, the calculations were calculated based on detonating explosives out in open air, like out in the middle of the desert. And they do not apply adequately or appropriately when used in interior urban spaces or even in outdoor urban environments where the blast wave is going to bounce off all sorts of different types of surfaces and come back on the assaulters.

absolutely yeah your k equation is not for that in the ux0 disposal manual k equation you you calculate um the limit of ballistic fragmentation is a k factor for that and you can calculate your overpressure hazard you know um distance based on your net explosive wave of your what you're disposing right so what's that total weight and that'll give you that outer limit so everybody you move everybody from there so k equation is that never really was designed for our safety or in a range or for an urban environment. Urban environments always have something that negate evaluating incident overpressure as the only hazard.

And that's how overpressure amplifies, how it interacts, and all those other non-overpressure hazards. So, absolutely. And again, that's the stuff out of all the scientific textbooks, right? the people who write test plans and they write those complicated technical manuals and stuff like that. That was how they describe stuff. Those references are not really written for what we're doing. Right. And when you say, I'm sorry, when you say UXO, you're talking about unexploded ordinance.

Yes, unexploded ordinance, right, sorry. In that video, when you're talking about amplifying an amplifying environment, in that particular video, you're talking mostly about the hallway, focusing the blast, about the drop ceiling, things that are not taken into the mathematical equation when figuring what the minimum safe distance from an explosion is. Right, because we're inside this confined space. So the walls, the floor, all amplify that overpressure. So it's going to come out. You're going to get instant overpressure.

It's going to come straight to that team. It's going to come straight out the charts. But the overpressure is going to start hit walls, ceiling, and floor, reflect, and really make a pretty complex overpressure environment in there of strength. And your positive phase time duration under these conditions extends. Damage to your body is really based on that time duration, the strength of the overpressure and the length of that time duration is what creates the positive impulse. destructive loading force, whether it's breaking our body or breaking infrastructure. The two of them combined make that destructive force. And the one key one that does the most damage or creates the more powerful impulse is when

we extend our positive phase. The longer that positive phase is, the more destructive that impulse will be because it's acting on that surface, okay, for a longer period of time. So you can get damage and body damage at a lower overpressure value. you when you're an amplified environment. Okay. Also an amplified environment. You guys have probably seen this,

let me just run down here real quick. I'm going to be bouncing around, guys. Anybody's explosive guys, this is in every textbook, all our references and stuff like that. And what it implies is on boom, we get a peak over pressure. This is our positive phase.

We're going to get maximum over pressure, with time and distance, is the weekend, and then we're going to have a negative pressure region. Okay? And then that's going to terminate. And a lot of textbooks refer to this as the entire detonation event, and they're actually incorrect. This is the overpressure profile of an instrument at a fixed point.

But what I want to show you on this, I don't have the other graph up. When you get a positive spike, that's overpressure hitting you. Which you'll see in an amplifying environment, a whole lot of peaks, I mean a whole lot of peaks and a whole lot of depths. And they're jagged. They're not curved like that. this. So a whole lot of these peaks and a whole lot of those dips below ambient pressure. Every time you get a spike means that's a compressive force. That's pushing in on my body. And every time you see it go below ambient pressure, the conditions are there for rare refraction.

When I have a compressive force, that means it's compressing my molecules that make up my body, my body tissue, stuff like that. So first I get compression and then the, the releasing. And that release is not a relaxing release because when you compress molecules of anything, a wall, your body, your spring load. So when they can relax, it's a tearing

release. And every time you get a spike, it's a compression. And every time you see a dip, it's a tearing release. So when you're in an amplified environment and like the equation will put you there. I'm going to show you another thing that they start talking about with instrumentation called Map in your

environment. Maybe some guys might have seen that. Is that phenomenon you're talking about, the compression of the molecules and the tearing effect as they expand? Is that what leads to a traumatic brain injury as well? Yeah, you know, it's the pressure squeezing your brain, because you're inside a helmet, I think because you're in a fixed position. So when you overpressure, if you're in the right spot, and it overpressure comes, because I've already recorded all this stuff. Back in 2014, I was able to make my own surrogates and put the gauges inside the helmet where your brain would be.

And I was looking for patterns. Okay, I know instant overpressure because they have that gauge, they put on your neck, and they're saying that it's going to give you a recording or what happened to your brain. And I always had an issue with that. And I talked to the manufacturer about that in 2014. How can you say that? Because the cage isn't where your brain is, is the back of your neck. Here, I'll show you right here.

I'm bouncing around, guys. Sure. Okay, so here it's better. Okay, here we have overpressure coming in. If you're in it, and you're going to end up in this sometimes, maybe. If the overpressure comes in, it's going to amplify in the back. Okay. This is where they're saying put the gauges.

And there's other companies. The first one I saw was 2019. They put it on the outside of the helmet. Then 2014, we're putting them on the neck, you know, shoulder, body. Okay. Then there's other companies making them too. but also seen them on outside on the back and also seen them on the top. But the overpressure comes in, amplifies here, and then we get our squeezing.

And it squeezes all the way around. I mean, this has been modeled. When I saw a computer model paper, because they can model our tissues, bone, fluids, muscle, all that. And the warning was the inside of our helmet is because the spaces can be an amplifying environment. it takes 14.5 PSI to cause, according to the model, that can cause enough skull flexure to put damage and pressure on the brain. Okay, so I was worried about that because here's the guys that the one study, 2011, everybody's coming in closer to the detonation, okay,

because they're half in their distance or shortening their distance. It's a little bit different now, but they're still short in their distance. I'll show you those quotes too. You shouldn't be doing it. They only focus on the chest. And those recordings were 13, 14 PSI with the wall charges. So that means what's going up in the helmet, if you happen to be in this position,

you're going to get a double. Because that's what's coming at your body, hitting that gauge. So that's the incident overpressure. That means what's going up into your helmet is my ratios of my recordings. The pattern was constant. So what's going by me or hitting that gauge, it was doubling up here.

and what was touching the gauge inside helmet. What was touching the gauge on the back of your net? This is a diffractant load. It breaks apart. And that was lower than the original overpressure coming by you. And that was my question with the manufacturers. Like, how can you tell us we're getting a recording that's going to hear the back of my neck that's going to give me information about my brain? Right.

And they didn't like me because they thought they had a great thing. And they actually wanted me to join them in some kind of a business arrangement and help them promote the product. Then we'll tell you what, guys, the product is an awesome product. It does exactly what it should be doing. It's an instrument that records over pressure. And what's awesome about is you don't need a technical team. You can get your own data. It's an awesome system.

I've always recommended it. I like it. I love it. I use it. And I use it to show them, you're getting this wrong, guys. guys let's sit down and have a conversation about this and they wouldn't do it. They just kind of just wouldn't do it. They're collecting the wrong data at the end of the day.

That's what it sounds like. Well, you know, now here are guys. Okay. These guys also, unlike our and like our operators, everything they know about overpressure is artificial environment. They don't really understand overpressure exactly how it, what's important to an operator. Operators don't know how our tech. because we're not really learning it right.

In the artificial environment, we're not seeing how to understand that stuff. And because none of the references we have were designed for this. They're written from experiments. They're

written for all study from afar. Explosive entry is the first time we have to close to detonation point. I've really shipped now as intimate with detonation effects. and nothing is designed nothing out there is written for that

and this is what we start learning because we're doing the detonations in real time we're studying we're looking at damage because we already knew where to be because we learned that from the active duty days because we already figured that out with our bodies but the artificial environment for research

and the artificial environment for operators all this is being a mess and when you point it out it makes sense and that's why I love when I showed us to operators who have already been through training on the range. All this stuff that has been missing, the academics covers, and then we go out in the city,

and then we shoot it for real. And we go over to stuff really meticulously, and what has been wrong about this and why we're not getting out of that? So, you know, it'd be nice if we could do this more than one operator at time. But this is our reality, guys. And this is not a precise location. okay this is where it needs to be and now here the guys if they really understood this stuff

why aren't you making your own surrogates if i can make a surrogate why don't you take i use their instruments to make surrogates to show them what you're telling people may not be accurate we need to talk about this and understand what we're saying so operators understand what they're getting and the field triage or emergency medicine they understand what they're getting because when you change the angle, okay, if overpressure comes this way and you're holding your head like that, then it's going to amplify.

And you could get up there in those damaging, those damaging squeezes. And the model said you can have damage to your brain, potential damage, not like permanent, but you're starting to get damaging pressures and you're not going to feel. And you may not feel any effects.

You'll feel okay. All right. If the overpressure is coming from the backside, my issue, and I've already told this, there's that project right now, and I already told all this stuff to everybody, I gave this presentation, and I told all the guys who are doing a TBI project right now, they invited me to come out and talk about the problems with our culture, and I explained all this stuff. So now if overpressure comes this way, now you're going to have a stronger recording compared to what's inside your helmet. because your helmet's going to protect your brain. It's going to be a diffractant loaded in your helmet. But now my instrument's going to give me a number, and that number may be a trigger, oh, my gosh, and your brain's okay. So you could misdiagnose or you can over-diagnose.

And is over-diagnosing with mild TBI necessarily a bad thing? You know, I'm not really sure. I don't know. But misdiagnosis. Yeah. And it's because how many times are you on the range? How many times are you getting hammered? And think about this, guys.

Our lifestyles are already pretty damn vicious as it is. Look at our recreation activities, contact sports, MMA, you know, defensive tactics. How many car crashes have you been in? Yeah. Okay. How many bad parachute landings have you have? How many times have you been knocked out? Okay.

we're already doing things by job and by recreation that's hitting our brains. Okay. How many times can our brain get punched? Okay. And the more and more we're too close because of that equation. And the more and more you get hit. And it comes down to every time you're, we got to get close, got to get close.

Okay. Think about this, guys. When you get that shit knocked out of you, you're hitting these like some of the quotes in the article with Jack wrote, guys taking knees, guys getting knocked out. You're not faster. You know why you want to get in there fast. But I want you to understand this.

You're hurting yourself. And you are not in a condition of fight. Okay? You're hurt. You're hurting yourself now and you're hurting yourself in the long term. You still have the same threat. And now you're in no condition to deal with that threat. And what I like to teach the operators is like, let's get away from that.

We have to get in there fast. We want to get there fast. But we have to look at other ways based on our environment, so we're not taking these massive hits. And I'll guarantee you right now, you're not going to be slower. You know, guys are downrange. They went through the programs, then came back. They went through my, we got to see, we went through my program.

They did their next deployment. The feedback was Chuck, we did. We did all our operations, our entries, no excessive hits. and the missions turn off fine. Repositioning, reflective of all the hazards around that environment because you have to do that each detonation.

Okay, I have a process for doing that. And the process is simple. Once you understand how we catalog, I call it the hazard puzzle, for like police don't enact a shooter. You can run right to anything. You have your pre-made charges. You can do that assessment on the run, place your charge, you'll already know what you're going to do.

property damage, you already know or tell your people to go by how you see that environment from all hazards to include overpressure, do your breach. Okay, and you can do it on the run. You can, they literally, the guys can do that, that fast. Okay, it's, it's an easy process. And it doesn't need a calculator and it doesn't need a computer program. And Chuck, we, I'm sorry, I just want to clarify something for our viewers who may not be familiar with some of what you're talking about. So the general principles in close quarter battle are speed surprise and violence of action. So the idea, like you say, of getting close to the breach came from the idea that as soon as that breach went off, that explosive breach on the door, that the team is taking advantage of that initial shock of that breach to get in there.

Because once that explosion goes off, they've lost. the element of surprise or in their minds they lost the element of surprise and hopefully off that breach there is a disorienting effect where the team basically follows it right in and you know so our culture is to breach and then flood as many assaulters inside as possible no i understand all that no no no because we had we had exec team challenges yeah if you're hurting yourself you're not fast at all right now position yourself in a better position and you may be even a little bit farther away You're not as slow as you think, even being a little bit farther away. Right.

Because on boom, you have that adrenaline. On boom, you guys are hauling ass. Your condition, you're moving. And, oh, I will, far forget, I'm going to give you guys my email address. Sure. It's not going to be enough time to go through all these details. I have some handouts if you're interested. If you want to talk with me and get more details and all that,

there's other things that you might want to do. Because, you know, I have training programs. and stuff like that we'll talk about a little bit. But I'm with you guys. Anything I can do to help you. My time, I'll make the time for you guys. I'll answer all questions. I have a lot of stuff written up.

So you understand what are the dangers that aren't going away. But you're not as slow as you think being safe. I'll guarantee you're faster than when you're knocked out or you're on your knees trying to shake off that bell ring and head. Right. And not even focused on the threat. There's no way you're faster than when you're safe. Okay? And it's a really simple.

There's details. But once you understand the details, which isn't hard and because you already have the experience, what you don't have those experiences is how to identify the things that are important for you know because the artificial environment doesn't give the opportunity to identify that and have those experiences. But you already have the experience downrange. And when you see how the way operators explain to me is it fills in the questions. Like how many times you have instructor and they don't really answer your question. It's not the instructor's fault because the material doesn't know how to answer your question.

And so there's a lot of stuff we don't know. But what do we do? We're going anyway. It's a mission. It's why I love you guys. You're going anyway. You know the risk. You know it's going to hurt.

And I'm like, it doesn't have to be this way. For the last 14 years since that equation, look at this, guys. This is January 2008, that handbook project. I just told you what's in the handbook. This is solicitation for more money from the entity that solicit the first time. And this is why the current Hopkins and Kranz cube root law, which is not K equation, by the way. That's why I highlighted that. And wobble calculation methods used for determining change, old pressure, exposure, and team stacking distances and tackle

explosive reaching operations is not an accurate method of predicting safe areas of operations. Okay. It was identified as a sniffing gap in a final data produced from the Tiswick Breaching characterization handbook. Okay. Why was that book made available for sale? And why was that allowed to continue in private businesses and our military training programs. And it's still there. That book still for sale and a lot of our programs are still doing that stuff. If this is what taxpayer funding discovered, why wasn't there a moratorium on this thing? How come this promise of if you think we need to rethink and re-scope this effort, then that's

what we need to do? And that never happened. Because I told them you weren't going to validate the damn equations. And I had to say it, you need to know this. And now's the time to say it or I'll forget. This is January 2008. Everybody knows exactly where they've been and told since January 2008 and told it's okay, you stand here because of a calculated number or come closer because you have a shield because of a calculated number

or be in a space because of a calculated number. And if that's what you've been trained, you know exactly who told you to do that. Okay? 2019, I have two independent medical monitoring projects of explosive injury, explosive breaching training showing TBI from explosive entry training. And I don't, because they won't talk to me. A lot of folks in research won't talk to me because this message is not how they're putting stuff out. And they say unflattering things, which aren't true, aren't true.

But they're saying that because it's just like, it's reflective of business competition. If there's a competitor making you negligent or all that, well, you want to try to discredit that competitor, right? That, um, that, um, competitor, right? Well, the thing is, these people left the paper trail. This isn't just what I think, folks. There's a paper trail. Their words. their products, okay?

My communication with them, their responses. So you want to try to discredit me, all these people end up doing is eventually discredit themselves because operators, when they find out the truth, okay, who now is, who's reputation now is at the state? Right. But guys, you know, TBI from explosive entry training,

and they are using the equations, they should have been eradicated in 2007. How do you answer to that? I don't have an answer. I know what I think and I don't want to say what I think. Anyway, but you want to ask questions? Go ahead. What you're outlining here, Chuck, is how this research starts off,

and we start off with some flawed premises, and it leads into military doctrine and training and what we're training our soldiers to use. They're then taking it, overseas, both in training and in combat and using it. And now the next step down the line, downstream, we're seeing all these operators that have TBIs. And we have some guys who have died and they autopsy the bodies and we're finding that they have like

22 TBIs. It's fucking insane. Yeah. And you're identifying the root causes of that truck. And it's really frustrating that we're still having this problem, like guys are getting hurt. I remember one of the first things you told me. is you have operators come to you and talk about how much it hurts to do an explosive breaching.

And you are like, it does not need to hurt. It doesn't need to hurt. And, okay, guys, here's reality of TBI. Okay. First off, nobody should be standing where the overpressure is excessive. That is unacceptable. But we all have other possibly preexisting conditions based on our lifestyles. okay why some people get injured and some don't that's why it's not it's a real thing and i think the

folks that are really looking at that the ones i met are amazing and i really think to study in that regard is going to do some amazing stuff for everybody treatment and man if they can figure out a way of uh of um recovery that would just be amazing well but i'll tell you what it's being looked into and to me that's that's money well invested okay Every effort they can. But why are we sending our people? Okay. Now, I don't know what everybody's doing.

Okay? And I know it's been a mix of stuff. Some people aren't doing equations. Some people are. I don't know who's doing equations. But if you're doing the equations and you're getting rocked, there's no justification for it because all that should have been eradicated. Right.

Custodians of some of the manuals for our services courses that have that in there. I've tried contact. Okay. and they blew me off. So you have issues with your explosive entry chapter. Let's have a talk. And here's the issue. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I'm paraphrase, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's a technical term that only I understand. And they blew me off. And this is how I found out they blew me off. I was waiting an answer. He remember we're going to talk about this. We're going to turn us around. One of the SMEs that supports me, he's a Ph.

NomVET, EOD Tech. And this guy, knows. He's already forgotten more stuff that I'll ever know. And to have him in the network it's just amazing and help me out understand things. And if you need

to know anything about Explosus, let me know I'll connect you with Mike. Anyway, it's a different mic. And I'm talking to Jack. He's also an SME for that committee for that manual and the stuff they do at that activity. He was there

for something else. And somehow they got in a conversation and one of the engineers is like, can you believe his Navy guy was telling engineers that their books wrong? He's like, what? Do you tell about some Navy guy? What? Yeah, our explosive breaching chapter in our new book.

You know, some Navy guys told us that our book's wrong. Navy what's his name? He tells his name. He goes, you know what? What you need to do is listen to that Navy guy. Yeah. But they blew me off. Okay, people don't want to be told or wrong. Hey, what operator wants to be told the wrong?

Right. Okay, that's human nature. When you're in that realm where it's your livelihood and you're wrong and it's that vicious environment, people going to do what they're going to do what they're going to do to take care of them, okay? What we need to do is don't put them in that situation. Okay, it's not fair to you, but even though it's unintentional, we have to figure out a way to not let that happen. happen to them. The talents are awesome. They don't understand this. It's not smarts. It's not funding. It's experience. Operators have the experience, but the education doesn't support how to identify this. The folks in research and the vested businesses are also products of the trap.

They don't understand your reality. They're going to look at you how they're relevant within that trap because that's what makes sense of them. And none of these people, for 14 years, I've been asking them the instruments, this new project right now. Some engineer makes a smartphone. Guys, we need to come out in the city. Let me show you what this is. Why is this important and get some first-hand experience of operator reality? And it's going to turn this around. And every time I do that, they reject it. And I have the emails. I do it in person. I have the emails. I have the rejections, so there's a paper trail. Now, I'm not finger-pointing, you're all fucked up, you're not, what I'm saying to

operators is, we got to be the ones taking control of this, and it starts with education. Yeah. It's not technology. And when I say this, all the technology people flip out and they take that out of context. He's anti-technology, anti-technology. No, I'm not. I'm anti-not looking at evidence that hurts someone else. Right, right.

I'm not anti you. I hope all businesses succeed. In fact, the one that pressure gauge call me, well, they talk all kind of smack about me. I use their instruments all the time. It's an awesome product. I can make my own surrogates. I can do stuff with their product that they only know how to do. It's because they don't understand this in reality and what it means to be important for us

because they're products of the trap. And we're not willing right now. I hope it would change. Maybe we could turn this thing around so damn quick, but anyway. You took matters into your own hands a little bit, I guess, when you wrote this book, Tactical Explosive Breaching Operations, where, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. This is your effort to correct this problem we're talking about tonight, right? Oh, yeah.

That textbook is 37 years in Amakin, literally written in blood. every bit of it is about our experiences in real time. And it was a long learning curve. Okay. And things weren't perfect. We had some great things. We had some bad things. So how do we correct the bad things and keep them corrected?

And that's the context of the book. That particular version is, four guys that don't get a chance to go through my class. And it's the organization. It's the safety. It's understanding overpressure. And it's written in a, fashion, particularly for police, because they're going to go to court, criminal convictions,

and their potential liabilities, they have to be able to articulate incredibly complex and scientific phenomena, detonation, detonation effects, you know, you have to be accurate, and you have to be understandable by non-explosive breaching authorities, like your commanders, lawyers, judges, and juries. So it's written in that context, and I've had a lot of help, SMEs, of PhDs, engineers, explosive engineers, help me law enforcement, the FBI guys, terminologies,

how do we make that simple as possible, be accurate, easy to remember, but these other people understand you. So that's a book. I call it the hazard puzzle. The hazard puzzles describe what it is and how do you apply it?

That kind of stuff's in there. I stayed away from taxes, tactics, charges, those kind of things, because charge is charge. The important things are to safety and subject matter expertise is what that book is focused on.

And could you just briefly explain what is the hazard puzzle? Because I think that's a really important part of the way forward. There's eight pieces. This is, and I'll explain to you how it works. Okay. The first one is, never forget,

fact conditions, why are you doing explosive entry? You're going after people who want to kill you, okay, and kill others. and when we get that I'll go right to the this is range training this is what's been happening guys don't see the obvious

because it's breach in calculate 4 PSI or half my distance what's the obvious threat if this is an operation okay it's not over pressure

it's these windows right right because if they see you and you're not seeing them okay and which these these guys are doing that okay you have a problem

you can get shot you know they you can get shot make an extra fortify and now you just made it a big time mess and this is happening it sounds silly

this is happening these kind of things are happening all the time guys are getting fragged a couple years ago there was a here's another thing

about some of these private businesses they have these conferences okay conferences are great go to them think about learning curve. There was a special

ops team was doing breaching and we have those metal container, flexible linear shape charges you handpac with C4 and conicles. All spec ops guys have them, all the military OD guys have them. And they're like, hey, let's try his charge. So they

pack it and they stick to charge on the door and because it was breaching they stacked it at the 4PSI calculated distance for instant overpressure and four guys got fragged, hard court. Fortunately, no one died. The injuries were pretty severe and guys were recovering. That was good news. And the first thing I want to say, that guy had permission, he came to a conference,

he could, man, dudes, we screwed up. And the lesson is, because it was breaching, we didn't see the obvious. Okay, if we did combat demolition training, we'd have been nowhere in there the same book because it was breaching. It was breaching. We stuck that ironing. We didn't see the obvious. A lot of courage for that guy to go to a conference and say, man, Man, we messed up. I got so much respect for him and that whole team to want to help people to don't do this. Right. Guess what happened?

About two or three years later that same business, all right? This is the problem. There's nobody regulating this stuff. Anybody can do whatever they want. Literally, there's no oversight authority, guys. Within the services, you have a chain of command and all that, but really across the board, there's nobody tracking anything. Flexible linear change to shape charts.

It's metal case flexible linear shape charts. I don't know. For brain cells unite. It's metal case explosive. You never worked with it. We worked a lot with it. We stopped using it. It could tire of fragging ourselves.

So it's basically like a mini handguning. So basically they wanted to do a math class for the entire conference. Okay. This is their example math class. And this is an instructor of this private business. and they gave this out as a handout. Now, it's one of the guys that in my network were there, it gave it to me.

So here we have a ballistic fragmentating explosive. Okay? They get to 4 PSI, and it's okay to stack seven feet away from ballistic fragmentation. Okay, when you use K equation for ballistic fragmentation, there's a K factor, 328. Okay, you're safe from ballistic fragmentation, 1111 112 feet

My point is this What was the learning curve You're a course First off, and this is after That study don't do K equation Okay We're not only using K equation Which you shouldn't be doing

You're telling people to stand next to Explosers are going to produce ballistic fragmentation Which the other guys did Where's the lesson learned here? And this was given out at a conference. And then they do the same example for the internal one. It's okay to be in a room because of a calculated incident overpressure value with ballistic fragmentation.

Jets, there is no safety oversight. This stuff is happening all the time. I know guys are learning this. Guys are seeing it. I know some things are changing, but why is there not somebody and just... Stop. And I've been trying to do that. And there's a project right now that could have done that.

And they elected to just let it keep on going. The email said, we know what we're doing. Okay. I'm trying. I'm trying, guys. So I look like this. It would be great as somebody who just knocked this shit off for more people were hurt. And reputations on their end, you know, are affected too.

Because that's a big thing for them. Right. And I told him that when I gave that lecture in November 1, 2010, or excuse me, 2018, when they're manning up that TBI study, they had a work group, they had to find a plan, do all this stuff, and there was multiple work groups to find, because this is incredibly impressive and really a detailed, I mean, pretty busy project. Good things are going to come from it, except for one thing. explosive entry

safety preventing injury and that's the only thing I'm focused on everything else these guys do I have zero problem everything else they do for like a gun crew artillery everything is constant it's a controlled environment

how you set up your weapon what train features cannot be around where the crew is for running that weapon and the ammunition everything there is constant that's a controlled environment and every way they understand over pressure, that's perfect for them.

But there's a PhD wrote a paper back in 2017 and some of those other guys that said, oh, no. Because they record, then they're going to range, and they're recording up your upper left hand corner, and they're putting gauges on you. And his paper,

the way he sees overpressure for his peers to review, he's equating your reality with overpressure with a controlled environment. Right. Because that's you know, how he sees it. Okay.

You have people. They really are brilliant. They don't have the experience to be an authority or in your safety, but they're being allowed to be in authority on your safety. Right. Okay. And this is one of his things, because this was another PowerPoint that went out on 25 March,

2019, from another Ph.D. I mean, we, this guy, we talked a lot. Because that instrument that they're putting you in your neck, okay, because the guys that make that instrument, they're saying things behind my back that I don't know I'm doing, anti-technology,

I misrepresent them, and I don't. I've always thought it's a quality unit. I always thought that it's a needed unit. I use it. And they just don't want to hear. They don't understand how it works. And consequently, they want to save things that just aren't true.

But this is what this PhD said, and a lot of PhDs and MD said the same thing. Okay, the existing tools, this is what's above this image right here on that slide. Existent tools, meaning the gauges that we're using are relevant for research environment, but not for human monitoring. Okay.

And I think the context of what he was thinking at the time because the way discussion was gone, We never really cut what I wanted to hear. We have a lot of serengrates that are designed to be to replicate your body. You know, like crash dungies. There's a lot of seragid technology that should be getting incorporated and stuff like that. This instrument, personally, I think it can be used that way. But there's a lot of PhDs that don't think that that unit should be for medical monitoring.

Okay. They're going to figure that one out. I personally don't see an issue with it if you do it right. if you place it right. And what I had a concept for besides going out in the city, so they all understood your reality from first-hand experience is I wouldn't show them how to set up surrogates. Because each urban detonation, it's its own separate reality.

Right. And I wanted to show them how I set up surrogates and get everybody's feedback. Because we can, with the surrogates, where you know how to position, and then you said, because I already do that, I already know where to position the guys. Okay, external, there's going to be times external, there's nothing there. For a PSI is fine, even an urban environment. It's not always something there.

The ratio for thousands of documented detonations is around 75%, something else is there. That that calculated number is irrelevant. Whether it's an amplification environment, a shockwave thing, the windows, threat conditions, they can see you, those kind of ballistic stuff. Something else is there that you need to reposition. It's not safe to be there. And the way the training culture is, is punching this number, stand right here. And that won't go away.

And that's the issue. It's already been proven. It shouldn't be happening. Anyway, I don't know exactly what guys are doing, and I don't know their medical history. I'll tell you what, guys, I'm in my 60s. I've been doing this 37 years, and I've never displayed a symptom of TBI. Okay, now that doesn't mean next year I won't, because I don't know what's in the future for me. Because I did what I did, like you all did.

Everybody's done what they've done. When it's your turn, see, for a lot of guys, if it's mild, it may not show up to later in life. And when it's later in life, it could be misdiagnosed of something else. And they're working on that stuff too. And they do want to get recordings in your medical record, which I think is awesome. But the way things have been up to now and the way they've been misrepresenting instrument, the value of an instrument is my concern. Because how effect is that going to be?

I hope. See, I told them all of stuff. Okay, let me get an example because I know things are turning around even though they won't give me credit. Let me do a quick one here. okay that overpressure um that one overpressure company uh is had a new product brochure that says you can map your environment okay and and right after i lecture to that tBI group it was um the november 1st and second and within a week of being home i don't know how i found or someone sent it to me there's a graphic of a hallway with 10 instruments in it and and their

literature says, oh, you can map your environment for the purpose of you can stand you can stand in there. So I sent an email to that whole work group about that and I want to say, I'll tell you what I

I'll cut it down. So I'm not going to show you the graphic, okay, but it's a hallway and there's 10 instruments. The illustration along with the written claim that the system can, and this is to that whole TBI group. There's over 100 people who copied this because it's still a work group.

So this system can map your environment is not true at face value. In fact, it's reckless and dangerous to imply a warfighter may stage in the hallway. This may seem logical in theory from detonations before, but I must say again,

it is impossible to identify the variety of produce hazards with overpressure recording sensors. First, each detonation zone separate reality, then depicted as in the illustration or hallway thing. Because each time you go in a hallway, everything changes. How many different hallways are there?

You do a couple detonations. Okay, a hallway, standing there. Every detonation is going to be different. There's going to be so many different things that when you don't do that anyway. What this is is another version of that Wibble equation, just using instrumentation. Right. Why are you telling someone? when they can be somewhere that's not safe.

You don't have the first thing experience. Already told you the stuff that work. And the individual that did this was part of this. It's a PhD of one of our medical research activities. It's one of those guys that's coming out in the ranges and putting the gauges on you. I'll guarantee you, you know he is if he put gauges on you. Two years prior to this, he told me he was working this project with this product manufacturer. and I try me

what are you doing man you're going to set guys up getting hurt you're not going to get amplified over pressure you don't have the instruments don't do that

you're going to miss stuff I will show you what I was going I'll show you an illustration all the other stuff I show you that all the other crap that's not an overpressure behavior

and and he just kind of blew me up we never really he never allowed me to complete what I was trying to say he just kind of it wasn't like a blow off it just

I never got an answer what do you doing? He never would answer. Two years later, I see this thing. I'm like, you've got to be fucking shit in me, man. Actually, I didn't say that. I said, wow, I can't believe they did that.

This is my I'm pointing it out. This is irresponsible marketing. All this is, is marketing. You cannot tone operator do this because these guys don't know.

Okay, I'll just kind of off right there. I think I get the point, but let me give you a visual. The sensor collector size of... I remember, there's one thing I wanted to point out, well, I'll let you finish, is you told me that these PhDs come up with these equations about where you can place assaulters inside the structure, but they will never, ever go and do it themselves. Yeah, I was going to say, you need to stick them in the stack so they can go test their theories.

Oh, no, and it's all these people in research. All these people telling you what you need to do will not. validate with their body and I've been saying this to them for years. We have to go out, let me show you how it works with your body, so you have the first day experience. You should never, no one should ever be allowed to tell an operator where they can stand no matter what they think they have, whether it's technology or whatever until you validate that with your body. In fact, that's why I said in this email to that crew, that whole crew. I want every one of you to think that that's a good idea. You set that up 25 times.

and everybody going there 25 times, and I'll guarantee you you won't make it to that number. And now you'll know what I'm trying to tell you. Of course, that was like blown off, right? And if they won't do it, they need to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up, honestly. Well, you know, like straight up. No, I, for too long, it's been too flawed tasking.

Unfortunately, that whole thing, I feel like it's so entrenched, and it just, because they're just I really don't know what to do they don't they won't do it okay I have that an email I have the rejections

yeah I explain this they asked me to come talk to them when I talk to them and I'll tell them what they want to hear it's the impression I get but it's like what's the impression I get right okay nobody should be telling an operator what to do and this isn't already a recording

so guys we need to do this but guess what? You don't have to because what? It's already been done. You're looking at them. No TBI yet, hopefully. Yeah.

It's already been done. Okay, you don't want to do it. Allow me to do it. Let me turn us around for the operators. Oh, no, we know what we're doing. I have the email. We know what we're doing. Okay.

Well, I mean, I was going to say that, you know, you showed that example of the guys on the range and then going back to the video of the guy in the hallway, it feels like you could just have a sound engineer look at that, you know, just a different type of wave and go, hey, does this test the environment reflect this? Can you use the same equations for sound? And they'd be like, no, of course not.

That's dumb, you know? You know, a sound wave is not supersonic. It's a wave, just not supersonic speed. Overpressure is a shock wave because it's travel on supersonic speed. Now, this is another medical activity. this diagram. Oh, oh, I forgot to tell you. That was that email, when I saw that, that was November,

where it was, November 17th, 2018, okay? I lost my thought. The March 25th, oh, I know I'm missing. All right, this is what the people in the product industry say, there is some things being said about me. This is one of the things they say. And it's in writing. No one suggests that the instrument readings inside a hall room represent the entire volume.

Rather, we all agree it represents the pressure at the given point of the room. This is a straw man argument. And I'll tell you what, that is not true. Because prior to November 17, 2018, that's exactly what they were teaching. That's exactly what they were advertising. And that's exactly what they were doing with all their instrumentations. They're telling you, it's giving you information that it's debatable. It's not like that. Why can't we have a discussion about this? You know, okay, show me where I'm wrong. Show me where I'm wrong. Okay, I'll change my whole program. Right. Sit down and show me,

please, peer review my stuff. Let's go out of urban vibe. Show me where I'm wrong. because evidence is showing and, okay, guys, I'm not just making a shit up, okay? This has been going on for decades. I have peer review of so many different SME resumes looking at this stuff,

federal law enforcement in the ATF, you know, the guys that study the agents, I mean, and guys with the education, multiple PhDs, engineers, and most importantly to operators, what do you feel and how is this correct in

stuff. Okay. So this is just in me sitting in a closet. Gee, what can I do today? Let me see if I can't make someone angry. This is evidence. Right. Evidence worth of a discussion at a minimum. Are we missing something? At a minimum, why can't we sit down and do this? Nobody wants to do that. And I have my reason. I don't know why I'm not going to say. But you know, but that, that's simply not true. It wasn't until that email that changed. You know what, guys? That's what it took for these assholes, excuse me,

that's what it took for these people to finally stop doing something that's based on evidence. And you act like you knew that all along is simply not true. Chuck, I'm going to ask for your final thoughts on this topic in just a moment. I just want to let all folks out there watching us.

Please get your questions in for Chuck, if you have any. And please remember to subscribe to the channel. If you haven't already, please give us a little thumbs up or thumbs down. If you think we suck, we won't take it personally. Leave us some comments. Let us know how you think we're doing.

And down in the description, you'll find a link to the merch for the website for the channel. And you'll also find a link to our Patreon page if you're interested in support in the channel. And you'll get access to our bonus segments as well. And Chuck, where can they find your book for those who are interested in pursuing this deeper, you know, for our professionals and maybe non-professionals alike or just interested.

Hey, guys, this is my email address. Best way to contact me because sometimes column is hit or miss for me with some of the things I've gone on. It's for people who are listening to the podcast, it's C-J-O-C-O-N-N-O-R-9-8 at gmail.com. yeah you know yeah if anyone was interested in in purchasing textbook just send me an email and i'll give you all the info that'd be great um i'm here for operators i have a i have a lot of information i prepared um of problems because there's a lot of things too okay uh like with our references stuff like that to help understand where are the holes so you can fill in the holes everything's been vetted

Everything's been validated, okay? But I want to say this, guys, no one knows it all. And we, all of us together, your experiences, some other, some other information that can help fill in gaps. I want to make you safe. Yeah. I want, you know, how hazard puzzle works. I want you guys be safe. First and for it, safe.

We'll stop the injuries. Okay. And then, you know, I wish it wasn't this. way. I wish you could come the other way around. But let's get everybody safe. First and foremost, you know, talk to you have to if you want. You guys, we can communicate. If you want that stuff, to send me an email. I'll send you all the info. If you want me to talk with folks, your commander, stuff like that, talk to them if you think you need to or if you want to. And I'm available. I'll make myself available because we have to take the lead on this.

And honestly, guys, we don't want any. anyone to be set up for failure. You know, it's happening. It's unintentional, but it's really bad for everyone. It's been bad enough. And operators, in my opinion, now, are the ones who are going to have to take the lead on this. And let's turn this around. And then let's take care of the guys and let's get them back to what they're good at doing.

Okay, this is the one thing they don't do. And I don't know why it's that hard. And, you know, I don't know what to say anymore to an adult. Come on, let's talk about this. Show me where I'm wrong, please. I don't know. I know this. Evidence right now is showing there's a better way.

Right. Okay, compared to what is happening right now. And there should be that level of curiosity for the benefit of the troops. There should be that level of, okay, what if we're wrong, right? Like how do we test this? But like you say, when it comes to research, and we don't, we don't. just see it here. We see it in the pharmaceutical industry. We see it everywhere else.

Research is paid for and sponsored generally by companies who have an investment in the end result. And so it's hard to get it's difficult sometimes to get research that's open-minded. No, that's spot on, Dave.

And actually, exactly the point I wanted to get into, the final thought on this is that operator culture soldier culture is that when our superiors come to us and they give us data, they give us training, they are the subject matter expert. That is literally the term, the SME on this subject. We assume that all that data, that all that training has gone through a rigorous vetting process,

that it is legit, that it is all good to go, that there is some eye in the sky, higher power that has gone over all of it and made sure that it is appropriate for us to use. It's just part of being in the military, you know, the person, the people who are higher ranking than you have done their due diligence and they're giving you vetted information. But what we have seen, I mean, Chuck's presentation and what we have seen, I mean, independent of anything, Chuck has said tonight, all the TBIs that guys are getting out in the field, we've seen no, actually there is a flaw in the training and in the data that we're being given. So for all of the guys out there, whether they're in a soft unit or a conventional unit,

it's time to not question. I don't mean to undermine any specific command. It's just we need to start questioning the type of training and the type of tactics, techniques, and procedures that we're using in the field because guys are getting hurt. They're getting TPI's. There may be other options out there. There may be alternatives that will minimize, maybe not completely, probably we're never going to But, you know, yeah, we're never going to.

Because, again, our lifestyles, guys, you know, what's going to have in our brains, the stuff we do? Right. You know, there's an assumption that everything's been vetted before it comes to you, and that's not really true. The evidence shows it's true. The evidence also shows that it's things that have been proven not to be good are still allowed.

You know, that makes no sense. they're still being allowed. And I really don't know what everybody's doing because I do know different folks are doing different stuff. My concern is the misuse of equations. Okay.

That right now is a blurring one because that, why is that anybody's literature anywhere in anyone's program anywhere after what they discover? And it still is. And the people who have that don't want to talk about it.

They don't want to they haven't given us anything. better or nothing. Well, they can't give us anything better or nothing

because they don't know how to. But guys, first off, technology is not going to fix us. Okay? And technology,

people freak out every time I say that and you always take this out of context. What's going to change this is education. How do I

identify each detonation through the hazard puzzle where not to be? That's what's going to make things safer. It's already

bad enough. You're going to go get in a gun battle. Shit. Why do you have to go through getting hurt to go get your gun battle? Because of this kind of stuff. You know, and it's not

technology. Okay, real quick, I'm sorry, guys. I'll show you what I mean. Where is it? Where's my? I'm going too fast. Here we go. These guys, they're being monitored by that PhD at that medical activity on his staff, right? They're

too close. Wall charts. Two and a half pounds of composition decision c4 these guys are way too close to the charge because you misuse the k equation you have these guys watching them okay they get a recording okay it doesn't matter what that recording says that could be the most perfect fucking instrument in the world okay so what they're too damn close the technology or new technology isn't going to fix this it's the training and the procedures, not technology. And you have a guy watching this who doesn't understand the danger here. If he's an authority on his safety and his staff, like they imply, that why did you watch these guys for

years, thousands of operators, collecting thousands of recordings is what he says. Why did you watch these people hurt themselves? Because this is after 2014. Back in 2008, they knew they shouldn't be doing this. If you're in a third, authority and safety, why are you allowing this? And not once, we're talking in years. That's a legitimate question. When I try to ask that

and I point that out, you know, well, there's no discussion. They're tasking the talent. They're not being tasked right. They shouldn't have his task. One is already figured out. They should be tasked for this. It's not a good use of their talent.

all right all right go ahead I'll shut up well the challenge no but the challenge of this is because a lot of times the damage it goes undetected

right like it's not exactly if these guys were getting broken legs from from the overpressure they're eating missile fragments right you'd be able to say look all these guys got a broken

legs when they're standing this close but the problem is with the TBI with the overpressure, the damage over time. It may not come out for years later. And it also has a tendency to get misdiagnosed, right? It gets misdiagnosed, yeah. And you know what? They know that.

Yeah. The people doing that project right now, they're well aware of that. And I'll tell you what, some of these guys, even on that staff, when I talk to them, how they interview on patients and stuff like that, I'm like, these are really smart people. Right. the talents are not being used right right no these guys should be an authority or safe they don't have the experience right because the other things that they're doing is just fucking perfect man i'm like wow you guys i was impressed but leave this alone come on why can't we leave this alone

it's already figured out i'll take the lead yeah you know give me some reps we'll turn us around and then we can better task to you guys so everybody wins. I'll tell you guys, because I worked in research, I have the operator's perspective. Yeah, should it be happening? Absolutely not. And I think everyone can see possibly what really are motivations here. I'm not going to say, I think it's obvious, is when I talk to operators, they say the same thing every time.

Because I worked in research. We cannot set them up for failure. And failure in their term is catastrophic. like it's different, but it's just as catastrophic to them as it did for us. You know, I don't want us doing that to them, even unintentionally. Right. Okay. And this is so easy to turn around, but I can't find somebody who wants to talk about it.

Again, this is evidence, guys. This isn't, I'm just making this up. I saw this episode of some Scooby-Doo show and, wow, that was pretty cool. Right. No, it was 37 years. Yeah. I have no TBI. And that says something, guys.

It says something. Something's wrong. And the way we're doing this, it didn't work. Okay. I got one last question for the viewer here. And actually, this is a very good question. Jake asks, what is the risk of shooting an M4 equivalent rifle repeatedly, given that they trip overpressure sensors?

What about larger calibers? indoors versus outdoors well I I really don't know how to answer that because I've never used instrumentation some of those conditions you know I know

and Jack and I were kind of talking about that earlier some other comments from the article and I really have no experience with that guys I wish I had an answer I think that is a good question because I don't know why I don't know why but it's happening because another guy had that comment

too. But I've never experienced it. The way I use demonstrations related to explosive entry and I've never been in that situation with the sensors and the firearms. And I like we've, I think we all agree. Great question right there.

That's someone's PhD dissertation if someone out there wants to jump on that and do some additional research on that. Yeah, you know, and someone might know that. You know, hey guys, I'll tell you what. If I don't know something, you know, I think I learned a lot and I learned slow and I learn painfully but um if I don't know some I'm

I'm gonna be honest with you and if it's something I don't know I'm a pretty awesome network and uh for reach out for answers connect you guys or represent you guys whatever you want and I think we all do but literally that question I absolutely know I don't know who to go to for that one I mean because I've never until that was in your article I never even consider that would even be an issue or anything like that. So I would have absolutely no idea you're going to reach out to. Yeah. That's a good question. Yeah. No, it is. And it's another further matter for additional research. It's just frustrating sometimes to see how slow military culture or perhaps, I don't have any experience in law enforcement, but law enforcement

culture perhaps how slowly it changes and sometimes it takes 20 years to reverse the course of the show um but hopefully conversations like this kind of get that going and get people thinking about talking i'm thinking um i you know there's going to be people because they already say things you know behind my back or everyone these people to say stuff behind my back i've already tried to talk to them in a reasonable fashion, professional, and they make up things that aren't true. They say, I misrepresent things. They say I'm anti-technology. The only people to say this stuff are people who have something to sell.

Right, right. The only people are ever not liked anything I said over the last 20 years are people who are selling something. Right. And they're selling something you don't need, like they advertise because they say, you know, thing, guys, salesmen have to sell something or they don't have a job, okay? they have to sell something what you need or not. Okay,

that's not a criticism. That's business or they don't have a job. So you can't fault that. But I want to help guys understand is how do I see through what that guy's trying to tell me? Because if I have a frame of reference, then it could sound good. Because that happened to us.

We bought a bunch of stuff based on how it was perceived us through sales. Okay, and turned out, okay, all right, we got burnt. we were lucky because we could absorb it with our budget but man you have a you have a limited budget you can't afford that crap right you can't afford it all and you see and research is a business that's why it's saying that these guys have to sell someone and it's vicious and and i tell you what i really feel i don't know how i feel for these guys we have to figure out a way because they can't see it they're they're they're a victim of the trap like you guys are They're just as much of a victim for their world as operators are.

And they can't see that because it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense in their artificial reality. And I'll never stop trying. I've always said I'll never stop trying to talk to someone. Come on. This is not hard. And I'll never stop inviting them out into the city. Everybody's ever done that.

You can't understand this intellectual. intellectually, compared to the experience. Okay, and everyone knows exactly what that's like. Okay, I'm professional, or you watch a box match, hey, that guy's face is all punched up, that hurts. When it's your face, that's a whole different experience. Right. So, you know, I wish I, we start with operators.

Let's give the operators the information. You'll know what to do. You already have the experience. Right. You already know how you feel. I can show you how to not feel that way and add that to your threat conditions because you've got the shit rocked out of you

and have to shake that off. And again, I don't know what everybody's doing. And you can still get injured. Even if you're not using the equation. There's no, we've got this operation, you know, there's no guarantees. We know that. But to be allowed to use something proven

it's dangerous since January 2008 of reference still for sale the last time I checked was November it was still for sale last year it's

who do you go to I've been trying this has really been like a master class an explosive breaching right here tonight and I don't know I think this is like super important information to put out to people Well, thank you. No, thank you, Chuck.

And look, we can, I mean, we can definitely empathize and agree with your frustration that operators and soldiers, I mean, people are out there putting their life on the line in a hostile environment and then subjecting themselves to secondary dangers that they're not even aware of because the research isn't accurate and nobody's doing anything to change that. Like the mission itself is tough enough. Why inflict additional harm and disability on these people? And Chuck, can I borrow you for just like another 15 minutes to do this segment? Okay, thank you. No, absolutely.

So guys, thank you so much for joining us tonight. I hope you'll spread this message around if you know anyone who's in the military, who's in special operations who's in law enforcement that works around explosives. I hope you'll share this video or this podcast with them. We kind of spread Chuck's message around. Next week, we're going to have Danny Colson on the show. He is the founder of the FBI's hostage rescue team. So the actual guy who started up HRT.

So we're very excited to have him. We'll be talking to him next Friday. And with that, I think that's a show. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Yeah, thank you. We really appreciate your time. Reach out if I can help any time, guys.

I'll do everything I can to help you. I'd love you.