The Team House - Special Forces Combat Diver & Author of Black People Can't Swim | Damone Brown | Ep. 298

Episode Date: September 16, 2024

Support the show here:⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseWhen Damone Brown enlisted in the US Army, the path to the Army's Special Forces was a rare journey for a black man. Few blacks existed across all military branches of Special Operations -Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines. Among the millions of brave black men who serve, less than four percent have broken into the elite Special Forces and even fewer have become Combat Divers.Dive into the pages of this book to uncover the invaluable lessons Damone learned through the Army's most grueling school: the Special Forces Combat Diver Qualification Course, known as CDQC or simply "dive school." From heart-pounding training sessions to the intense realities of the battlefield, Damone rejected the stereotype that black people can't swim and fought through physical, and emotional barriers, and seemingly insurmountable odds.Damone's journey to becoming a Green Beret ignited a relentless drive, propelling him beyond mere achievement to conquer greater goals and join the elite ranks of combat divers. His story is more than an autobiography; it's a source of motivation for anyone with unfulfilled dreams. It reminds us that God is faithful and will empower us to fulfill our destiny.Damone Brown, MDIV, MBA is the founder and CEO of Olive Drab Technologies LLC, and a retired US Army Green Beret. He resides in the Washington DC area with his wife and children.—————————————————————-Today's Sponsors:Ketone-IQ ⬇️https://ketone.com/TEAMHOUSESave 30% off your first subscription order & receive a free six pack of Ketone-IQMUD/WTR ⬇️http://mudwtr.com/Use code “TEAM” for 43% off, Free Shipping, & a Free Rechargeable Frother.____________________________________Pre-order Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" today! ⬇️https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/——————————————————————To help support the show and for all bonus content including:https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse-AD FREE AUDIO-AD FREE VIDEO-Access to ALL bonus segments with our guestsSubscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseOr make a one time donation at: ⬇️https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouseTeam House merch: ⬇️https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963Social Media: ⬇️The Team House Instagram:https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_linkThe Team House Twitter:https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePodJack’s Instagram:https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_linkJack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21Team House Discord: ⬇️https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6SubReddit: ⬇️https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSampleWant to sponsor the show?Email: ⬇️[e-mail]#specialforces #combatdiverBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Hey guys, it's Jack. I just wanted to talk to you today about a way that you can help support the podcast if you're not already. To support the channel is to become a Patreon member. So we have Patreon memberships that start at just $5 a month. And when you sign up, you get access to all of our episodes ad free. That's the big bonus for that. I mean, we also do some Patreon bonus episodes for our subscribers. But this is the biggest and best way that you can support the Team House channel and podcast if you'd like to, and we really appreciate that. So go out and check us out at patreon.com slash the team house. Special operations, covert ops, espionage, the team house with your host, Jack Murphy,

and David Park. Everybody, welcome to episode 298 of The Team House. I'm Dave Park with Jack. Murphy and tonight our special guest, Demone Brown, the author of Black People Can't Swim, a fantastic story about, about Des Moan's personal journey as a special forces. We're hearing some feedback on your end, Demone. You might have the YouTube running in the background. Okay.

Got it. Okay. But anyway, welcome, Des Moe. and we really appreciate it. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Anytime I have the opportunity to hang out with Warriors, it's awesome. So I really considered a privilege and happy to be here.

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Tour de France. I'm just an, I speak American. I can't help it. So, Daman, on this show, we normally ask people their origin story and how they grew up and how they got into the military. But your book,

your book is really different than what we see come out of most veterans and most combat veterans. Because really your book is about your relationship with water and not just your relationship with water, but the black community's relationship with water, the history of it. And then your sort of personal challenges, both your desire to get into special forces, and then your desire to get on a scuba team. And it's a fascinating book. So, Instead of asking you our traditional question of what led you into the military, I would like to know how you grew up and what your relationship with water and swimming was as you were growing up. Yeah.

So, yeah, I think with my relationship with water was very simply that I had access to it. You know, both of my parents were military. I'm actually third generation. And I grew up actually because of that, saying I would never join the military because of that. I moved to, I moved every three years of my life up until that point and then, and then up to high school. And once I got in the high school, I moved, I went to three different high schools. And I was an athlete, so I made it hard.

But through that time, my parents being the Air Force, you know, you just had access to pools and boy scouts and things like that. And I think that's not common within the black community in general. So having that access, I definitely wasn't like swim team material or anything like that. But I gained a comfortability and I gained a joy of just being in the water. So, and I also learned how difficult the water was and some of its power and things like that. But, you know, I think every SF guy or future SF guy has a desire to do hard things. And so for me, I think water was both an enjoyment, but also I wanted to learn the dangers of it and just kind of defeat it.

So, yeah, growing up, my parents didn't kind of push water on me, but it was kind of activities that I found myself in. And like I said, I wasn't a swim team materially like that, but it just so happened that when I got to the military and that opportunity had, I was comfortable enough to give it a shot. One of the things that I really appreciate about your book is the history and the sources that you included, the idea that prior to the Civil War, that more of the black populations swam than whites. And that one thing that I didn't realize you had mentioned, that segregated pools weren't really a thing prior to World War I. Yeah. What got you interested in, beyond your own story,

into the history of the black community's relationship with water? Yeah, I mean, so I think it was really, just coming across the statistic that, you know, when I was writing, it was 64% of black youth can't swim. And now it's, you know, a year later, it's 70%. So just understanding that and then just thinking back, you know, writing's a reflective activity. And so as I reflected, I did notice that I was kind of the only black guy in the water for a lot, you know, most of my story, most of my childhood. You know, so the question was why. And so I started doing some research and I think it's a matter of history that most people don't know.

And being in the D.C. area, it was actually very interesting that a lot of the places that were segregated and things like that when it came to swimming were in the area I lived in. So I found that even more interesting where, you know, they're the same named facilities and things like that. They've just expanded and they're doing a lot better. But yeah, it's a hard history to hear. but I think you alluded to kind of the 19th century, you know, 80% of blacks were swimming at that point

as opposed to 20% of whites and other races and things like that. So it wasn't, I think, you know, people laugh and question the title of the book, but that was something that I was kind of told, and it's a joke, but there is some truth in it. And I think that I want to, hopefully the book dispels the myth that blacks can't swim.

It's mostly, maybe they don't swim or things like that. It even goes into like females, you know, females, black females often don't swim because they don't want to get their hair wet and things like that and messed up. But, you know, when I was in Ranger school, you know, guys are studs. You know, they're crushing it the first week or so. And then you get to Victory Pond and you're asked to do a couple of swim exercises and you just see black people just tapping out. And again, it's not because they can't, but they haven't been exposed to it. Right. And it's a very big fear thing.

And I think, you know, in the book there mentions, like, where fear kind of became instilled through slavery, but it also through black heritage. And because so many black people drowned, that became kind of the family mantra often was stay out of the water. You're going to drown and things like that. So, yeah. You also, one of the things that I thought was interesting is, like in the facts that you were talking about, you know, that cities, municipalities used to have community pools. And then after like desegregation, you know, black families grow those pools. But, but as more and more affluent people and generally

white people started building private pools that those municipalities started shutting down the public pools, which restricted access. Absolutely. Yeah. Right now there's 10 million private pools, over 10 million private pools across the U.S. as opposed to, to about 300 public pools. And those are, you know, in key areas. And so they cost money. And so sometimes it's a financial thing that people can't get into the pool. And if money's tight, then why would we, you know, spend it on swimming type of thing?

But I also think that as people were trying to swim during the 50s after that desegregation, the pools weren't kept up. And so you had people being injured in pools that weren't kept up, whether they were, you know, they just dilapidated. They didn't have the chemicals and things like that because they couldn't afford it because people that were paying, you know, admission were leaving. And so either they closed the pools totally by filling it in with cement or they just left them and people were hopping in and stuff like that and drowning and so forth. About 2005, I remember when I just came back to visit my parents in the D.C. area. And, you know, over the summer, kids were jumping in the pools, hopping fences, but they couldn't swim. And so just every week, it seemed like kids were drowning.

And it became an epidemic. So, again, parents were still saying stay out of the pool. Rather than, hey, let's get you swim lessons. Let's teach you how to swim. The message was, stay out of the pool, stay out of the water. It's dangerous. And if I remember, your parents, you had your first swim lessons round five, correct? I did.

I did. And that wasn't really a lesson. It was just like jump in the pool and try to swim to the other side type of thing and try to test out. So there was some fear in there. But I think even at a young age, I was, I just had this thought that I just didn't want to be defeated by anything. And I liked hard things. And so, yeah, I think it was just the length of the pulling back, but it was traumatic at the time.

Now, I think an interesting point in your book is where all this leads to is, not for you personally, but for black men and women now in the special operations community, is that swimming is often or some sort of drownproofing, something like that is generally a requirement to be in these units. and for good reasons a lot of times. Absolutely. Because you never know what the environment is. You know, I would like to think, and I don't know, you can give your opinion,

I would like to think that these tests aren't put there as a barrier, an intentional barrier to the black community. It's just that. Because the guys that drowned on D-Day. Yeah. It's just that it's one of those important things. But because of that requirement and because of like the black community's, you know, a kind of fear of water, it's a major fear of theirs and lack of

experience around pools or swimming or whatever, that it becomes a barrier to, you know, black people who may want to get into special operations. Absolutely. Yeah. I remember just being in Tucker pool at Bragg, and we were doing, I think, a swim test for pre-ranger, and so they asked us to come along and support. And, you know, there was this kid that jumped in and he had his BDUs on, and it really wasn't that big of a deal, just swim to the other side.

take your time. There's no time limit. Just get to their side and come back. And he was immediately panicking. And, I mean, you could stand up. It was five feet of water. He could stand up in it. But he's panicking and just couldn't make it 10 feet.

We pulled him out. And he had like water wings on underneath his BDA tops and stuff like that. So, I mean, the fear is real. Yeah. But definitely. I think that's an important part. It's not meant to be a barrier. And it's just it's a hard thing.

Even Colonel retired Alan Schumade. I had dinner with him the other day, and he was sharing a story with me about one of his best friends. He was a solid dude in the 82nd and a black guy. And he was like, man, he was an infantry guy, and he's like, you got to go to Ranger school. He's like, I can't swim. And so Shoemate, obviously, is a dive guy and said, I'll teach you.

And so he took him alongside and started taking him to the pool first day, started teaching the combat swimmer stroke and the guy just went straight to the bottom of the pool and so he's like all right well let's focus on technique a little bit so he put a life vest on him and said all right just do the technique

and don't worry about you know floating at this point and even with the life vest on he said he went straight to the bottom of the pool so I mean there's something to say about some people would argue with me about the density and things like that but But, you know, shoemates kind of built the same way I am.

And so he struggles with floating as well. But he just said, you know, his response to that guy was, like, yeah, maybe you shouldn't just go to Raiders school because of it. Just, I don't know, part of its makeup, part of its teaching and learning how to swim. But, yeah, there's some people that just struggle more than others. I mean, you bring up an interesting topic. Do you think that, like, the idea of negative buoyancy, those types of things? Do you think that those are, like, racist ideas to talk about?

I don't think that. Yeah, I don't think that at all. I know some people get really fired up about it. I don't think it's a racist thing. I do think there's obviously there's science in the density. But I have also learned personally that me being a little bit more dense, I had to just figure out how to pop my hips up a little bit more when I'm swimming. And it just makes certain things challenging. But there's other exercises in the pool like ditch and dawn that I can go straight. to the bottom of the pool where everyone else is struggling to get down. So, you know, you just have your weaknesses just like anything else, and you just have to make do. Yeah. So talking about you now, so you grew up in a military family and you said, I'm not going to enlist. What changed your mind? 9-11. 9-11. So I went to University of Maryland, and I was there, and my mom was an officer. my dad was enlisted. And so one of my mom's friends was a colonel and head of the RFTC program. And he would call me like once a month and just trying to get me to come along.

And my dad worked on, he was a mechanic for F15s, F14s back in the day. And so I grew around those planes. And there's nothing like sitting in the cockpit of one of those things. It's just, it's incredible. You know, it's incredible. And if you don't want to go fly one of those things after sitting in one, you know, something's wrong. with you.

But so I just grew around with that, wanting to be in the military initially and then just life got hard, moving all the time, having to make new friends. But when I look back, I really feel like that was, it served me well to gain those abilities to be able to meet people and make friends fast and build rapport, I guess. And so moving into college, I still said up, yep, I'm never joined. I'm never going to do that to my family. That was the mindset. I'm not going to do that to my family having them move.

I went to three different high schools. I was an athlete, and this is prior to the internet. And so it wasn't, you know, coaches couldn't really find you easily. So, you know, I graduated and I was working in law enforcement, kind of part time going to grad school in the D.C. area. and then 9-11 happened, and I did the delayed intro program in November and March. I was in the Army here. And if I recall, right, your mom wasn't super happy about your decision, right? Absolutely not.

So one, I think because I had a college degree in my hand, and then I think so comparing, you know, you've seen the difference between the lifestyles of an officer and enlisted. Why would you want to do that? And then the second thing was you've seen the great life that the Air Force has and the bases and the opportunities. And why would you pick the Army? But I just, I don't know, I felt drawn to it. But my enlistment story is kind of funny. I was the first person that my recruiter put in the Army.

So he didn't tell me a lot of things. I should have gotten like a $10,000 bonus for having a college degree. He didn't get me. I found out at MEPs when it was too late. But, you know, I joined up. And I joined. I was thinking about becoming a chaplain actually long term and I was trying to work and go to school. And 9-11 happened and I was just like, you know, instead of being reactive, I want to be proactive.

And so I joined as a chaplain assistant, which was terrible, which was terrible. But it did help me. You know, I joined. I got to the 18 Airborne Corps after Basic and I saw all these studs, you know, with Ranger tabs and stuff. I didn't know what a Ranger was. Honestly, when I joined the arm, I didn't know what a Green Beret was other than like 18 movies and stuff like that. but I didn't really equate it because I didn't grow up around the army. But I did have this fire inside of me that I'm like, man, let me just hang with, see if I can

hang with that guy and 12-mile rep marches and stuff like that. They're running. I'm like, I'm going to run too. And I just felt that I could hang with them. So I got really lucky. My first boss that I worked for was a head of Ranger tab. It was a chaplain assistant. He was the head of the, I guess the chaplains on Fort Bragg, chaplain assistants at Fort Bragg.

And he also had a scuba bubble. And I was like, hey, I want to go to Ranger School. And back then, soft-skilled MLSs couldn't go. And so he's like, I'll, you know, work for me for a year. And I'll send you to Ranger Battine. You can go to Ranger's School. And finally, he just decided to send me to seventh group as a support guy. And there's a guy named Conrad Fernandez, Sergeant Major Fernandez,

who became a great friend of mine, mentor, and just pushed me along and kind of encouraged me and said I had what it took and taught me some land nav and sent me to selection and kind of the rest was history. So let's talk about that because one of the things that I appreciate about your book is you're very open about, I don't want to say your failures, because they're not failures, right? The only failure is the one you choose to accept.

But the times that you didn't quite make what you wanted and question yourself, and met yourself and decided who you wanted to be. And SFAS was the first time that happened, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there were,

I guess one of the concepts in the book is failure is not final. And I was an arrogant person inside. Outwardly, if you met me, like most of the comments were, man, it's a humble guy, it's a nice guy,

he's real kind and things like that. But inside, I was just an arrogant guy. I was a divisional athlete and things like that. And so getting to the military, I kind of carried that same. You have to have a little bit of that, you know, swagger and confidence. But, yeah, it was inside of me. And I think from a spiritual perspective, I think I needed to be humbled a little bit.

And so I was, in my opinion, crushing selection. When you got to the Star Corps, they say if you've gotten to two points by the time the sun comes up, you're doing well. I had three before the sun came up. and so I probably had six hours or so to get to my fourth point. And I saw this little light, you know, the Kim White, and I'm like, there it is, put my compass away, got arrogant, and went into this draw and got beat up and came out of it after 30 minutes or so and pushed. I ended up off the map. So I'm trying to do like crossroad reorientation and stuff like that. And I can't do it if it's not on the map, but you can't find the roads.

So, and then it just gets worse after that. So you go out the second day and you're already beat up. And so, yeah, I didn't make it. And I had to go back. But I'm thankful looking back. I'm thankful I needed those things both from a humility standpoint, but also from a learning standpoint. I was an infantry guy.

I didn't have a lot of experience. And so I think I needed, I'd rather experience those failures prior to combat than in combat. So they were helpful for me overall. I you know the book's interesting because it's like six-tenths your story one-tenth history one-tenth devotional and one-tenth like self-help in a way you know with with these ideas of what do you call them in the at the end of the chapter? Applications yes for for the lessons learned also you know you draw on your faith a lot actually using it like during some of the scuba stuff as as a meditation in a lot of ways.

Has faith always been a part of your like inner being? Sort of. I grew up around it. You know, my parents encouraged it, but I grew up just kind of, it was what we would call like a legalistic type of thing. You just do this because you're supposed to. And that doesn't work. You have to kind of experience it and ask.

become a personal thing for you. So when I got to college, I just did my own thing. And, you know, I felt I was doing my own thing and seemingly happy, but I did feel kind of empty. And then after college, I had achieved basically what I was supposed to. I grew up wanting to be an athlete. I did that. I grew up wanting to get a job after college. I did that. And so now what? And so I just felt a little bit empty. And I needed some challenging. But that was one of the things that I went back to you. And it made it, it became personal for me. And I really feel as I was in the Army, that helped me navigate. I think I was a better warrior because of my faith. Not that you have to have it, but, you know, even after the Army, there's lots of guys that are struggling. And I think the Army

focuses generally on emotional, social, and physical kind of wellness. But I think there's a fourth category or spiritual wellness. Whatever that means to each person, it could be just your inner thoughts or, you knowing yourself, but it's an important part as a warrior, I think. Yeah. So what happened, you know, here you are this Division I athlete crushing it and you don't, you know, crush an SFS and then you don't make it through your first time. Where does that put you? It's hard, you know, because going into SFS and it wasn't a black thing or anything like that,

but people told me I couldn't do it, you know, and it was other like leadership ahead of me as chaplain assistance is just not what people did, and especially, you know, from that realm. And so I was told so many times that I couldn't do it. And I probably, if it wasn't for those people, I probably would have quit. Honestly, it sucked, right? But, you know, there's that little demon sitting on your shoulder,

like, you know, reminding you that they told you couldn't do it. And so a lot of it was just trying to prove them wrong. And I think there's growth through those hard circumstances, those hard trials and conversations. and so, you know, again, having to go back and have that conversation like, hey, where are you back? And stuff like that was difficult. But I went to the very next SFAAS class and, you know, I didn't do any more training. I just went.

And I had a belief in myself and a confidence. And I was lucky enough to make it. And then you crushed it. Maybe. So after SFS, what happened for you then? I got to the team. And so I got in a, came back to the team in a weird time, or I'm sorry, to the, to the units. And so the unit was deployed doing their pre-deployment training.

And so I'm just kind of sitting in the B team and, you know, going through the QCorp, you just know that's the one place you don't want to be as the B team, even if or as a holding spot. And so it was miserable just being around there. But I'm, again, thankful for that opportunity because I realize that it's a place. I didn't want to be. And so they were gone. They came back. And then we went right into prepping for Afghanistan.

And that's hard because they had a lot of training that I didn't get, driving training and things like that. And extra shooting training. All I had was the Q-course and went straight to Afghanistan. Well, can I rewind you because when you showed up at group, you were originally assigned a mountain team? I was. I was.

Can you tell us? can you tell us that story? Yeah, so, I mean, I was, it was a unique time because they were building, seventh group was building up for their fourth battalion. This was the beginning of that. And we wanted to ramp up for Afghanistan and those deployments getting involved in OEF. And so, yeah, they were just going to build up the fourth team. So any team I went on, I did the math, I would have been the third Charlie.

And so I figured, why can't I go on the team I want to go on? and I mean, I guess comparing swimming and being on the mountain, when's the last time he saw a black guy in the pool, when's the last time you saw a guy in a black guy on the mountains? Right. What was it? Why did you decide you wanted to be on a scuba team? Because you, was it your first sergeant or a sergeant major who you went into his office?

Because of people telling you you couldn't do it. It was a sergeant major. No, we hadn't gotten to that point yet. Yeah. It was a sergeant major. And there was a captain there that had gone to, dive school. I just saw him like he was really meticulous with his um gear and he would on his lunch breaks he'd go to the pool and stuff like that and I was just intrigued and um I'd always heard that was

hard and I think when I was coming into the army I saw like a commercial was probably a Navy still something like that and I was like whatever that is I'm never going to doing that you know and then there's another commercial I think it was a series or it was a documentary I was watching and it was a serious school I'm like I'm never doing that either but um just as I learned to conquer some things. I think your appetite wanted, my appetite just got bigger and I wanted to do something else hard. And so, yeah, it was kind of that vision kind of put into the back of my head and I decided to ask. So here you are, you're an E5 at the time, right? Newly to the group. I was an E5, yeah. And the sergeant major tells you, when you end process, the sergeant major tells you, you're going to a

mountain team. You think about it. You're like, oh, I think the scuba team. look harder, that's what I want to do. What was his response when you, an E5, marched into his office and told him that's what you wanted to do? Yeah, he was pissed. So, I mean, you know, not just wasn't E5, I was E5 with two years in the Army. Right. So, yeah, he was pissed.

Who is this guy questioning me? And I told you to go to the mountain team. But I tried to go on there with a homo hard. I knew what the response would be. But he, I mean, I think he thought I was an idiot. Like, who is this idiot asking to go? Nobody asked to go to the scuba team. So I was like, do you know what you asked me? Do you know what you're asking for? I'd said, absolutely. And he said, well, I'd get his permission after kind of coercing him a little bit. And then the other response was the team has to let you on the team. And so what happened when you went to 775? You know, who you had heard were the studs, right? The studs. What happened when you went there and knocked on their door and said you want to be part of the team?

Well, I knew one guy on the team. So he was a caddric. during the Q course at some point where not cadre, but he was like a couple of phases ahead of me. So I got to know him a little bit. And so a familiar phase. And so, you know, I saw him. That gave me a little bit of comfort, but it didn't really matter. So I knocked on the door, saw another guy that was an E5 and asked him.

He was like, you need to talk to the team sergeant. So shut the door, team sergeant answered. He's like, what do you want? And I tried to humbly ask. and he's like just looked at me and said you want to go to the dive team you know what you're asking I said yes and then he's like black people can't swim slams it on my face so that's where the title of the book comes from but you know it's again I always try to make sure people know it's not it's not a racist thing I think any person that has been an SF knows that if I were super

tall then they would have picked on that if I were short they would have picked on that it's they try to find your weaknesses or your difference and they They will dig in it. And if it bothers you, then you're not cut out for it. Right. Yeah. I mean, and that's true anywhere. It's true in Ranger Battalion.

It's like, first off, the guys smell that sensitivity. I don't want to say weakness, but like sensitivity. Yeah, yeah. You know, like it's blood in the water. And if you give into it, if you can't roll with it or play along with it or whatever, then they're always on it no matter what it is. DeMona, I would like to ask since we're on that topic. There is a perception, I think a false perception,

but within the minority community, I've had soldiers tell me this, that they perceive special operations as being like this white boys club that they're not welcome in. And we've been, it's been a conversation going all the way back to the 90s at least, like how come we don't have more people of color

in the special operations community? Rather than listen to idiot, like me opine on this, I'd love to hear your point of view and your observations. You know, could we do a better job with recruiting and reaching out to some of the minority communities? I mean, what do you see as being the issue there? I think that, you know, when I started, when I came in in 2002, 2% of SF was black, right? And so the question is why it's not, it's, that's a fact. So the question is why. And when I think about that, I would just put it into two things.

It's access and opportunity. And so for me, I was surrounded by people by happenstance that just put their arm around me and patting me on the back and said, hey, this is, they shared a vision. They helped craft the vision for me. So I saw it as a possibility. And I think other people look at it from the outside. You know, I was a Boy Scout growing up. I was in the pool. things like that. And so I like the outdoors generally. But even going back to selection,

you know, 500 something class and maybe, I don't know, 50 black guys in there and you'll have a handful of people graduate. But it's when you're doing all the stuff, the land nav and all that stuff during the day. But as soon as you start doing some of those night iterations, it's uncomfortable and it's uncomfortable because they haven't had the opportunity often to practice that on their own. And so I think, again, a fear point of there. And so it's inexperience. But yeah, it's not because I tried to make that clear in the book. My failures and things like that weren't because someone was trying to badge protect me

or tab protect me and things like that. But it was just failure. Simple as that is failure. And so I think you asked what can we do better. I think you'd have to start in high school and getting people in the pool or getting people to orientering and getting kids in Boy Scouts or things like that to know that it's possible. So I think like me, many people come into the Army and don't even know what a Ranger is.

So I remember coming back to Maryland when I graduated basic training I had by, or Eberman's school, I had my Red Beret on and people like, hey, there's a Ranger. I'm like, not a Ranger, you know. So it's just people just don't know. And it's kind of an ignorance thing. So I think just education, it starts with education and an experience and then opportunity would be my three things to help bridge that gap. I can't remember if it was Craig or Jason.

I can't remember who it was. But we had on a black CIA officer one time who, when he was in college, there was a CIA recruitment booth. And the recruiter was actually a black man. But he walked up and basically, you know, the guy gave him his pitch. He goes, well, they don't want me. he's like, well, don't self-select. Do you feel like there's a lot of self-selection going on

because of an impression of what they want? Absolutely, absolutely. That's one of the reasons why I just wrote the book a little bit is there's nothing special about me, right? I just happen to be, that's the color of my skin, happen to have become a combat diver. But the hope is that getting the story out shows people that it's possible

and that I think when you know it's something's possible, when you look around it, it's kind of awkward, you look around and there's no one that looks like you, so it's uncomfortable. But if you can just not self-select, like you said, and really have a vision for your life and a desire. And I think sometimes you have to have a coach and someone pushing you saying, hey, you can do this. It is possible. So I think it's important for me. I had, when I did get in the Army, I had people that I looked up to that, you know, you could just see that it was possible.

And I'm like, man, I want to be like that, dude. you know and I think that's there's power in that there's a lot of power in that yeah so you you do get on to 775 like they take you how did you how did you magic your way you know onto the team because they were full right they were full like most of the other teams um but you still and a lot of people I think for whatever reason they were rejected by that first kind of, oh, not you, a lot of people would have kind of moped and gone off to accept whatever else was there. Yeah. I think luck, but I mean, I'm kind of a knucklehead, so I just sat on the floor, you know, and they had to be uncomfortable a little bit too, like kept walking out of the hall,

looking at me, see me sitting there. Like, I'm not leaving, you know. And so, yeah, I think a lot of it was luck, but, and persistence. But I also think, you know, my performance in the Q-Corps, It wasn't perfect, you know, but, you know, I did have a person that knew of my background and saw me performing. And so he could, I don't know what went behind closed doors, but I'm hoping that he was advocating for me and saying, hey, this would be a good addition to our team. But also, I think they knew that they had to have someone be an L&O, an AST on the deployment. And so maybe like, hey, let's put this guy in there. I don't know. But, yeah.

I would sum it up to luck. So they're in the chamber for a trip to Afghanistan. They take you on the team, and immediately you leave before the team does. They're still doing their training. And you've got to go out to be an advon. And can you tell us about that? It was horrible. But again, that was an important lesson for me.

Horrible in the sense that, you know, throughout the group, I knew a lot of of guys, right? I graduated with a lot of them and stuff like that. And so they're out doing, they're fighting for our country, and it's something that I wanted to do. You've got a million dollars worth of training, and you're ready to get to combat, and you want to fight, and you're so close,

and you're listening to all the ticks, and you're listening to people get killed. And so that was, it was horrific. You know, I'm like, man, I should be out there doing something, and you just felt a little bit of guilt. So that was hard, but it also, allowed me to kind of learn the overall process of what how SF guys did business and and how we develop a con-op. And so it gave me a big picture and understanding of

of what was needed to be on a team. So that was, it was actually helpful. The part that I hated was that like, hey, it's only me three weeks, but it was way longer than three weeks. Yeah. That I got stuck there. But yeah. Because nobody else wants to come in and do a rotation. Exactly. Yeah. It's got to be replaced and nobody wants to come out of the field. Right. Right. So one of the things you mentioned, mentioned your book was before, I think shortly before going to the field or going down range, you get the nine line comes in. Yeah.

Right? Can you tell us about that? Yeah. So we lost four guys that day. And, you know, one of the guys was a combat diver, Chad Gonzalez. And he was one of the guys that I just, I saw his attitude. I saw the way he carried himself. And I wanted to be that guy.

You know, I was like, man, I want to be in that realm. He was on our sister team 785, but it was hard for me, even though I really didn't know. I'm like if you asked him, if you asked him who I was, he probably wouldn't know. But it was someone just that I admired and I wanted to, and I cared for, right? We're brothers. And so obviously losing anyone is hard, but just his death was particularly hard for me. And I'd never been in combat, never been shot at before, before that. And so it's difficult.

And it just made me, again, wanted to be out there. So that was February 14th of 2006. And so you do finally get out, go down range. And where do you meet up with your team at? So we were in Chamkani on the eastern, you know, Providence out there. And it was, it was good. But, I mean, I came in with that attitude of, you know,

like, I can't remember how when I, maybe it was March when I finally got out there. but I came in this like, hey, let's go to battle. And so we're going on our first mission, and I'm kind of fired up. And I remember one of my seniors looked at me. He's like, you've never, you know, obviously you've never been shot at before. And I'm like, yeah, let's go. And part of this, you know, I think you did those, some of those,

when old SF guys come in and you kind of do like mod mod demos or whatever. And so we've done a few of those. and, you know, there was a group of guys that had been trained and never really gone to war. So, like, oh, you guys are the lucky ones and things like that. And so I carried that mindset, too, like, I get to do this. And I was ready to go. And he was absolutely right, though. You know, it's something I begged for.

I wanted to use my skills. But that time that first bullet zooms past your head, was his past your head. It's not something you keep asking for. Yeah. And so how was that the rest of that deployment for you? it was good but you know i i still had i wasn't trained you know the q course when i graduated the q course one of my mentors was like hey great job congratulations now the real work begins and so that's just kind of a baseline as the cue course but there's so much more training and learning

and and you know becoming um becoming good at what you do um that has to go on and so they had come out from a several week PMT that I didn't have. And so one of the things was like a driving school. And so like, hey, you're now the driver. I'm like, what in the world? So it's terrifying, you know, but you just have to learn, ask questions, not be afraid to ask questions and try not to get people killed, you know. That was really my mindset is just do the best I possibly can do my job and learn from other people. And so I asked as many questions I can. And I, you know, got up early, went to bed late. And the other thing you mentioned, which I thought was interesting, is here you are, you know, you have your long tap, you have, you know, the fancy French green hat. And you're on this team.

And yet this is a dive team. And even though you're not in your water, even though diving has nothing to do with this mission, for them, dive school was really a dividing part. And so you were with the team, but you weren't really on the team yet. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, there's, you know, we did some great things in that combat, in that tour, and we'd come back. And, well, what we heard, there were three of us on the team that didn't have our bubbles. And it did matter. Like, it's like, hey, you guys are like on loan to us.

And, you know, when we get back here, do your job here. But when you get back, you're not on this team. And when you get back, that's when we'll decide if you're going to be on this team or not. So they basically, we were on loan to them and they treated us as such. And I think that's good. There was a hunger on that. There's lack of comfortability. But I think from a mental perspective, it's a little bit difficult to you.

You're expecting some more camaraderie. But they'd only let you get so close because, yeah, you weren't part of the team. And I think 775 as a whole historically within 7th group has been a great team throughout the history of 7th group. And so I knew that, the history of the team, and I really felt it as a privilege. And to me, it really got the desire that deep inside of me to really want to be established on the team later on. Yeah. So you guys do the deployment. Are there any things about that deployment that you want to talk about?

I think, you know, the deployments I had to learn. And we, leadership was kind of a, it was a competition, you know, everyday NSF is a competition. Looking back when I became a leader, NSF, I would have done things a little bit different, you know, just a little bit more teaching and things like that. But, you know, because there's, there's, when you're deployed, there's life and death consequences.

And so it's not the time to, you know, put your chest out and things like that. You just kind of have to come alongside in Greenbrae's our teachers. And so I think there should have been a little bit more teaching and less competition, but it was what it was. But, yeah, I think that I was lucky in the sense that some of the pressure was relieved off of me. We had two other guys, like I said, that weren't combat divers. And if you ever seen the movie Annapolis, they had the Mississippi. And so those guys were our Mississippies.

And so sometimes the pressure came off of me because they were always messing up or something like that. And so some of the pressure off of me. De Man, I'm really sorry. We just need to give a quick shout out to our second sponsor. tonight, I'll tell you, I used to be a heavy, heavy coffee drink, especially in the military. But I found that, you know, coffee would just, like, give me those, like, early morning to noon jitters. And then I'd just kind of stop and be a zombie after that. So one of the things that we've found, or I found, is our sponsor, Mudwater.

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And guys, go to Mudwater, get the stuff, and they're going to ask you where you got it from. Make sure you use Team to get that bonus. And I have to engage in a moment of shameless self-promotion. My book called We Defy, the Lost Chapters of Special Forces History, is coming out December 9th in the process of finalizing the manuscript right now. It's got five chapters on blue light, green light, dead A, DETK, and the SIF team. It's a whole history. I'm really excited to finally get it out there.

It's available for pre-order on Amazon now. There will be a paperback edition out on the release date December 9th. So if you guys check that out, thank you. Back to you, sir. Sorry about that. That's awesome. So you guys wrap up this deployment. You come back, they automatically go into a training cycle, right, for a workup for Columbia.

Right. But now is your time for pre-scuba. And pre-scuba, for those of you who don't know, is one of those schools that they can rarely fill. And like a lot of times, like, Rangers don't have. have a SCUBA mission, but a lot of time, Rangers, you know, from Ranger Battalion end up going to Prescuba or Scuba because there are extra slots available. It is both pre-scuba and combat scuba are, there are probably two of the hardest courses, most physically taxing courses, in the Army. So what are you doing to prep for pre-scuba or you get back from your

deployment and it's just go time for you? Yeah, I mean, we were prepping in Afghanistan. So, I mean, we were, obviously, I was like Charlie, and so we were trying to be creative. And we were thinking of things like digging a hole and making some, put and fill it with water and things like that, you know, while we were deployed. But basically, we just did a lot of running and flutter kicks. So coming back, you know, we were prepped for it, you know, and just went straight into maybe doing your inventory and stuff like that. And then it was all about pre-scuba. It was our guys that led my pre-scuba, which is painful.

Maybe it was been better if I would have went somewhere else. But, yeah, instead of the nine-foot part of the pool, we found ourselves often in the 12-foot. Like, if you can do it in the 12-feet, you can do it in nine. So it was tough, you know, especially they know us, they know your weaknesses. And, you know, every day you wanted to quit, but you just keep pushing through.

But, yeah, I'm thankful for just that opportunity. It was when I look back, it's awesome. I wish I could go back and do some of those things again, you know, but yeah, it's good times. So what, can you give us a brief overview of pre-scuba, why it's so hard, what some of the events are like? So one of the events is drownproofing. You know, they bind your feet in your hands and you have to, they call it a bob. So you go to the bottom of the pool and then you come up and I think it's about five minutes that you just have to survive. And so that came from, uh, that was developed as a,

a source to keep yourself from drowning. And so as a prisoner and things like that. And, um, you know, the mill, I think it was supposed to be a positive thing when it was, uh, developed. And of course, the army is always going to torture you and find ways to torture you. So it's definitely a torturous, uh, treacherous and torturous thing. But we would bob for about five minutes and then you start your travel and you travel around the pool. So it's Olympic-sized pool. You have to do two laps and then you come back. And so they call that floating or whatever.

But different parts are harder for other people during that exercise. And again, Skuba School is really about finding your source of panic and eliminating it and you have to face it. And so there's lots of opportunities to panic and you just have to fight through it. But yeah, it was great. One of, I think it was actually in the Scuba School chapter, but one of the sources that you mentioned was the idea of the blue mind. Can you tell us what that is? Yeah.

So within the blue mind, it's a point of peace, you know. So if you're, there's a reason why people retire and want to move to Florida, I move to California and be around the beach. And so I think there's two areas. It's one, the physical portion of the water where you're floating and there's just you're able to relax. And so I know there's people that go to like salt pools now and turn the lights out and you just kind of float as a source of recovery. So I think that encompasses part of the blue mind, but also just sitting by the beach and listening. And so there's a lot of people just doing that as a source of like resilience exercises and things.

things like that. But me personally, I love whenever I can. I just like to go and sit at the beach and just even if I'm not in the water, I just like to hear it and see it. Were you, at any point during the pre-scuba or scuba process, do you feel that you were able to develop sort of that sense of peace in the water? Absolutely. I didn't know what I was doing at the time, you know, but you just, you're kind of fighting through it. But you go home and you're kind of reflecting on the, on the lessons in the day, you do have to get yourself to that piece. And if you can't get to peace in the water,

then you will panic, you know. And so that's what it's caused. And I know, you know, there's my best friend died in the pool at scuba school back in the day in 2009, Mark Meyerson. And he was a stud. But, you know, with that happening, it's. it's difficult, you know. And so you just kind of have to persevere, I think, and I don't know. Yeah.

So your first go, or I'm sorry, I don't remember if it was preschool, so did you make it through preschool your first time? I failed. I failed. And it was doing, you know, very, something very simple to the point where, you know, Senator Major Bill Houston was the sergeant major at the time, and he asked me, like, did you fill this on purpose? You know, I completed a lot of the hard stuff. You go through a few weeks of pool exercises to get out and to be able to start diving.

And it was a simple exercise, and I felt the first day, and then they send you back to your room at the end of the day, and you just kind of rehearse the sequence over and over again. And I felt good. And they said, I interrupted my breathing on the way up, which I would argue, but. But yeah, again, I think my failure was important because I've been in situations, you know, Columbia training with the Colombian Navy Seals, the Mexican Navy Seals, where sometimes they've, they're less experienced divers, and they've put us in some really hairy positions. And if I weren't, this is where I was going before, because of the deaths in the school, they've kind of shifted how they conduct dive training. so it's less of the you get there

and I think now you're testing out mostly it's a little less of the hard part you're supposed to have that kind of locked in before you get there but I think it's necessary I really do think it's necessary I've been in situations where if it weren't for my ability to be calm

you know that person would have died and I probably would have died too yeah so so you don't have much So you came off a trip from Afghanistan almost immediately into pre-scuba, and then you don't have much time before the next pre-scuba, right? I went right back, right back, and I was the only, you know, several people failed,

but I went right back, and, you know, I was the only idiot that went right back, and they're like, Mr. Brown, what are you doing here? But I wanted it that bad, and, you know, your guys are gone. You always want to be with your guys, and so I made just a deal with myself that I'm going to get through it as soon as possible and I wouldn't miss as much of the deployment to South America and I just, there is no option

to fail this time. Yeah. Yeah. Now, you're a Tab Green Beret, you can go to a Halo team, a mountain team, like you can do something else. What is, and you've already been through like this very hard pre-scuba once. Why, like, how do you keep your motivation up

to go again when, there's when there are plan Bs that are really every bit as honorable, right? Yeah. Yeah, Dave, I think I'm just too stupid to quit. Too stupid to quit. But yeah, I mean, I think it's something I wanted to do. And I think it's more important than that, too. I think I just really had it was when I look back, I was being shaped all my life for this

opportunity. And opportunities are one thing, but really what matters most is what you do with those opportunities. and I wasn't going to let one failure stop me. And I think the positive side of it is I had so many people believing in me, and it had shifted from that. You're not part of this team to now they're believing in me. Now they want me to succeed.

And they want me to be on this team. And to a point where not a need, like in a needy way, but just need as a friendship and a brotherhood type of thing. And so that was a really big source of my motivation as well. That's fantastic. So you go right back into pre-scove again, and it goes well. It goes well. I mean, it's not easy, you know, by any means, but I think my mindset had shifted, too.

Like, I actually didn't train up at all. Maybe I had three weeks in between classes, but I didn't do anything but just a normal type of running and lifting and stuff like that. And I just got there and just said, I know what I need to do. I just need to do it. Yeah. Yeah. And then after pre-scuba, what's next? Is it another deployment or do you go straight to scuba?

I flew straight after, I'm sorry. Pre-scuba once, I passed pre-scuba. I went to dive school twice. I'm sorry about that. Okay, okay. After dive school twice, I went to Columbia. Okay. Okay, that's what I could remember.

So you make it through pre-Scuba. You go to Key West and, you know, go through scuba. And you do all the hard stuff, the drownproofing shark week, all that stuff. And then you fail on a procedural thing. Yeah, absolutely. So it was the day before you get to the one-man comp, which is another bear. But, yeah. Yeah.

And so you turn around, you go right back to scuba. And now you're standing up there. they're awarding the bubbles, right? You're getting your blood bubble. Like, how does that feel for you? Absolutely amazing. You know, absolutely amazing. And I always just think, like, I can't believe I'm a part of this group of people, you know.

And I think that's one, you know, going back to how do we get more blacks in the special operations community. I think understanding the significance and the opportunity it is. So I understood that very deeply. And so I was just in awe, but I felt like I earned it. You know, I wasn't given it, which is important. I felt like I earned it. And I was able to join a great brotherhood that, I mean, it's been 20 years,

and I'm still close with all of those guys and get together with them. Dimon, if we could take just a moment to explain to some of the civilians out there about the combat diver capability of what a combat dive team is in special forces, why this capability matters. I mean, there are heretics out there. I know it's hard to believe that don't think we should even have an airborne capability anymore.

I don't get it. But could you explain why the combat diver capability is important and what these teams do? Yeah, I think it's super important. One, because we continue to develop. So it's not like we're using tactics from Vietnam still.

You continue to learn and you continue to study the enemy and you say, hey, this is how we can develop this. So even since my time graduating school, the combat diver techniques have developed. But it really is just a source of infiltration. So it's the way to get to battle. And it's a unique way. And so, you know, as missions are presented, you know, they come up and say what team has the capability that's needed.

And whether it's Halo, whether it's just regular, you know, airborne op or drive-euvre. or whatever it is, you still always have to have that water capability, especially understanding who our enemies are and where they're located. And you guys also spend quite a bit of time training, as you mentioned earlier, our host nation partners, how to use these capabilities as well, right? Absolutely. You know, it's FID. So for an internal defense, and we are training those partner nations

so that they can fight on their behalf, and we're helping our country by kind of keeping their enemies at bay. We're helping ourselves. And so I think it's an important mission, and we've been doing it for a very long time, and I think we're very good at it. So also can you, maybe people have heard about like the blood wings or the blood bubble, but can you tell people what that ceremony is? Yeah, I mean, mine was, I don't know how it normally is, but mine, you know,

it was they pin your your uh your uh your dive bubble on your uniform and you so you're in your little skimpy uh dive shorts and they have you wear your bd you top and uh they pin you which is absolutely fantastic and then they pound you on your chest without the uh the backing of it and so that would be fine if it were just once but there's like six cadre in line and every one of them pulls it out and puts it back in and pounds pound your chest again So it's, you just throw that uniform away when you're done that blouse. So, yeah. Yeah.

But it's a tradition. No one's like running from it, you know, it's, um, you love that little tattoo on your chest for sure. Yeah. Um, so you graduate. Your team is already in Columbia. You go down there. Yes.

And again, you know, I'm still behind, right? I mean, I am an SF guy, but I'm still new to the army. Um, at this point I'm four years in, you know, and I'm still learning. And so everything's in Spanish. And so I had a team sergeant whose first language is Spanish. And it's, call me as a weird area because they, you know, looking at the Americans, even though they can barely speak English, they're, you know, their first language is Spanish.

And so they're calling them gringoes and stuff like that from their stature and from their dialect. You know, the words are a little bit different. And so it's different. But, yeah, I got thrown into the mix. And I literally got there and my senior was like, you're teaching this course. And so I go up and we're training their SWAT team, I think. It's Columbia and SWAT team. And we're training them on demo and we're doing tree cutting charges.

And everyone's got their phones out and stuff like that, taking pictures. I'm like, what is going on? And I literally walk in and just boom. And I just get like splattered with splinters all over me. And so I'm like, we've got to stop. Like we've got to get some rules and stuff like that going on. but it's hard because it's dangerous. You're working with, you know, C4 and lots of explosives,

but you're doing it in a different language. And so I didn't appreciate it at the time, but you're forced to learn Spanish and you're forced to speak it. And you also, it's not just the language, but you have to learn the culture, and that's a big part of it. You can be a great Spanish speaker, but if you don't know the culture, you're not going to get through to the soldiers,

and that's really important. So some of it, it's kind of like that inspiring those guys to want to fight for themselves and fight for their own country and really encouraging them to become warriors and want to become warriors too. Yeah, that's great. And so after that deployment, what was next for you? So after we came back, we did a little train up and we went right back to Afghanistan. So I was gone a lot.

At some point, I got married. and we were like we were supposed to go on no I'm sorry I'd gotten married when my best friend had was killed and in the dive school and we had we were supposed to go on our honeymoon and our unit said hey take like two months off and stuff like that and we got married on a Friday early and it was a Fort Bragg number I'm thinking my buddy's calling to say congratulations And like, where are you at? I'm like, Raleigh. We'll find out tomorrow going to, you know, the Caribbean and so like that. Like, no, you're not. Get back here. And so prior to that, I had my wife's dad was in the Army. And so we were introduced and she's telling me like, I don't know why we're dating because I'm not going to marry Army guy. You guys are gone all the time. Like, oh, my job's different. I'm only gone for three months, you know. Trust me, it's fine. By the time you miss me, I'll be back, you know. So I convince her, I say tricker. I trick her into marrying me. And, you know, we, it seemed great. Everything was going to great. And then they tell me to get back to brag. And so 48 hours later, I was in Afghanistan and just getting married. And it's supposed to be three.

It's supposed to be six months initially. And I'm sorry, supposed to be three, went to six, went to eight, and then finally 10 months, which is absolutely insane. And so every time, too, I'm calling her up and telling, hey, it's just a week late. You know, I'll be home soon. and she's like to own her job that you have to take off on this date because I pick my husband up.

I'm like, how many times is your husband going to read a bully? And so it is a catastrophe. But her mom helped her through it a little bit, and that's when I knew she was a keeper for sure. Yeah. But no put that nonsense. Are there anything you want to talk about

from that trip? I mean, that trip was good. I started to get better, right? I learned the operation better. We were training more. I think when you become a teacher, so going back to Columbia, you understand your job better. You have to understand your job better. And so I think I was a better warrior the second time.

I was more confident in my own skills. I was starting to become a better leader as well. And yeah, I was just thankful for the opportunity. So I was still on 775. We finished that trip and came back. and then it was basically my time to go to the schoolhouse. And there was a unique opportunity there. They had, no one knew what the dog program was,

the multipurpose canine program was, but they just asked for volunteers, and I think I was on vacation or something. So I came back and my name's on the board for dog train. I'm like, what is this? And again, it's one of those things. Nobody else wanted to do it. I wasn't there, so I got volunteer to do it.

but I did have a special affection for dogs and so my only thought was like will I still be part of my team it's either go to the schoolhouse or pick up this capability and they said we really don't know they told me I would be part of the team but they lied so I became a group asset and the only saving grace I got to come back to my team deployed with those guys with a with a dog capability and that was the best thing for the program. So I was, I think it was the second or third dog handler for seventh group. But the benefit was nobody believes in the, in new programs, right? We can do it ourselves. We've been doing this. We don't need new capabilities. And so they trusted me from the prior deployments. And now I could come back and say, you know, trust me with this dog. And we did some,

you know, we did some, you know, trainups prior to and they got to see the capabilities. But still, you know, When I first landed in Afghanistan with the dog for my third trip, I was terrified because, you know, the question is he's been biting the bite suit all this time. Is he really going to bite for real? And they're phenomenal dogs, but you have to answer that question. You don't know. And so that was kind of in the back of my head. And then the other capability or the other misnomer was that, you know, he wouldn't, he wouldn't walk on.

It was so hot we deployed as like July. He wouldn't walk on the cement. And so I'm like, what did I get myself into? He's going to get people killed. And it was just kind of crazy. But we just gave him a time to acclimate. And they acclimated within like two or three weeks. And soon, I don't know how I did.

I mean, I had a German Shepherd. And he was just phenomenal. I don't know. I mean, to sniff for explosive, they hyperventilate. And you've got this German Shepherd in 115 degree heat that's hyperventilating. And he'll do it for hours. hours and it was just incredible. So that was another privilege that I had, but I loved it.

That's fantastic. There was a vignette in here also about like either a black person or the black community's relationship with dogs also. Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, if you look at back in like the civil rights movement and things like that, all the pictures you see are just like black people kind of, you know, afraid and backing up. But the police use dogs as a,

not only as a threat, but they let them go. And so when I was in college, I did some security work. And I was at this nursing home as a security guard. And there was this guy. He had to be in his 80s or 90s, but he was terrified. He was really slick, you know, would always try to sneak out the door. When big groups would come in and things like that. And I just heard people, the nurses would be like, you know, Mr. P, they called on.

They said, Mr. P, those dogs are outside. and he let those dogs outside and he'd go straight back to his room he was terrified terrified so again that was just another opportunity for me to like dogs aren't a bad thing um and uh yeah it's a great capability yeah that's fascinating and so did you stay did you did you did you stay in that program like how was that feeder program and once you were assigned to canine was that yours for the rest of the time that you were operational i will it was we were i mean we were testing. The first deployment was a test. We had not deployed with dogs before. And the reason the dog program came about was that, you know, they came out out because we were deploying with like MPs and

things like that. And we would do missions. And either the dog would quit or the handler would quit, just because they weren't trained for that type of terrain or the weather or they were terrified of of what we're getting into. And so the idea was to take green berets that could have a dog and come back to the unit and train with the teams and everyone be on the same page. So yeah, I got to stay with the program and with that dog. Luckily, he did a great job.

He kind of became a little famous. He was a solid dude and saved a lot of lives. So it was awesome. That's fantastic. Any particular stories from your first deployment as a canine handler that you want to talk about or anything? Yeah, I mean, so his name was Argus. He was, if you look back, he was a Schittem three. So that's in the European realm, that's like the highest you can get.

And most dogs don't get to that level. I think sometimes in the year, at least historically, the reason why European, one reason why European dogs are so great is that from birth, they pick one or two dogs and they're like all right these are the dogs they're going to make it that are solid and they put the other ones down and so there's you know i think the u.s we overbreed a lot of dogs and things like that but they're very strict on their breeding and survival rates i guess of their dogs but he was he was very well trained so he was trained in protection um not really explosives of course but uh um tracking and things like that And so we, and then you just want to have the drive. So he had phenomenal drive. And then we used that drive to teach him to hunt for explosives. And, you know, when I was training, we went to Indiana to train. And he got bit by another dog.

And so I had to take him to the vet. And the vet was like, so what is your dog do? And I'm telling her, and she's like, that's impossible. So I told her, you know, the three different capabilities, explosives, patrolling. and tracking, and they just said that's state board of Indiana, says this and that. And like, a dog can only be good at two different things. And I'm like, I deal with this dog every single day. Yeah.

So remarkable dog. Wasn't afraid of anything. But we want them to be strong and social, right? So you don't want them to just, if you're on a mission and you're driving an hour to get to the objective, and the dog is just going nuts wanting to bite people. By the time you get to the objective, he's too tired. He's tired himself out. He's not going to work.

So, you know, I could grab my kit, open the door, I'm putting my kit on, and he would go, you know, two, 300 yards to the, to the trucks and just hopping in wait. And he was just very calm. But when it was time to go, and he would just amp up and go. He was also very selective. So we did a call out one time. And those were painful to callouts. But you're knocking on the doors and, hey, everyone come out. So a group of people came out, have a discussion with them.

Is everyone out? Yes. Like, all right, we're going to go in. I'm going to send the dog in first. And, you know, as we're having that discussion, they're saying, yes, everyone's out. Well, people are still filing out, you know, five minutes later. It's like, what in the world? So ask them again.

Yes, everyone's out. So we stack on the door, send the dog in first room. There's, you know, once I send the dog, I become, I have to take care of my responsibilities and he does what he does. And I just corner my eye. like interested to see what he's doing and he jumps on this bed and I just saw like a uh it looks like a body I couldn't really tell but he jumps in and rips this blanket off and it's you know probably an eight year old kid sleeping and I'm like man this kid's going to get lit up and um he just sat

and barked you know and so I don't know how um he just made that um decision but he just barked and alerted so he cleared and then was able to grab the guy and take him out so had the conversation conversation again, you know, hey, what's going on? Here is this kid belong to anybody? So we go back in, clear the first room again, get to the second room and there's this bassinet hanging from the ceiling. And I just remember again, cornered my eye. And I'm like, oh, this is going to be bad. And he jumps up and he's, I'm like, he's going to light him up. And it was like a six-month-old baby sitting in this bassinet hanging from this mud roof. And he's just barking, which he never does. He's not a barker. And he just alert. So we clear that room and then grab this baby, like, who left their baby in the house. And so just phenomenal things like that. And another, another mission, he was, I was pretty pissed off because we went to this village. We were clearing villages and we went to this village and we heard on the radio's chatter that we missed. They were hiding underground. And so they were like kind of mocking us and they missed us. And so I took it personally because I was one of the one searching with the dog. And my dog was alerting. So anytime

I'm a dog, I would say, messes up. It's not the dog's fault. It's the Hamler's fault. And so he was kind of alerted me, but I didn't make sense. You know, we're looking, we're tearing everything apart. We just couldn't find it, but they're in the ground. And so we went back and tearing this place up. And he was, went through this little hole and he's searching.

He jumped out of a two-story window. They were questioning this guy. And he was, he had a suicide vest on. They were questioning. and, you know, they were trying to, like, clear him and stuff like that. And he jumped out the window and rent and just lit that dude up and kind of saved everyone's life. So, and there was like a bunch of commandos, maybe like 10 commandos, weave through all their legs and hit the bad guy.

So just phenomenal, phenomenal resource, phenomenal dog. So definitely love him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it always impressed me how the dogs were able. I never saw a dog bite. an indige, like a an ally.

Yeah. You know, that they just, they hadn't been introduced to any of these guys, you know? Yeah. But they knew what the threat was. They knew the threat was. It's interesting to hear, yeah, stories like that, like the dog is picking up on something, the same

thing with the kids, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I've seen that too. I've seen dogs weave through our indige allies without touching them. Yeah. And it's like how, like how does this dog know that that guy's the threat?

You know, it's weird. I have no idea. I have a friend who's, he has this theory that, there's a chemical that, like, basically,

you know, bad people have, killers have and things like that, that they release and that he would like, he wants to do dog. He's, he's in the therapeutic world with dogs.

And so he's a big proponent for using dogs as therapy dogs, but he believes that they can pick up on evil sets. I mean, it doesn't sort of boggle the imagination when they can pick up on like somebody before they have a seizure or before they go into, like they can pick up on those signals. I don't know if it's sent or what, before something actually happens to a person. Yeah.

It's incredible. I don't think we know exactly, what they're picking up on, but I knew, you know, generally their, their sense of smell operates on something we call the stew theory. So if we walked in a room, you know, and someone's cooking stew, we're like, man, that stew smells good, but we really can't under, we really can't isolate all the different smells in the sense. The dogs can come in and actually they smell individually every single one of those scents. And so that's how we actually initially train them on explosives is instead of trading them on one thing at a time, we would just put a big box full of

the 14 major explosives, and then they were just, they're able to pick them up. It's unbelievable. Very interesting. Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. It also, you know, when, you know, people say, oh, my dog can tell good people from bad people, like when people come in the house, it's like, maybe there's a little bit of truth to that. Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. No, it's fascinating. So had you owned dogs prior to this point? Had dogs been a big part of your life? So growing up, my parents were just from a practical, I guess, perspective, I wasn't allowed to have dogs, but I loved dogs growing up.

And my mom was just like, we don't were too busy. And I think the hair and all that stuff, she was a neat freak. And so she didn't want that. And so I grew up always wanted a dog. and never having one. There's actually one time there was, I went to Walmart, I was in high school,

and they had this dog that, like puppies in there, like, I saw them like three weeks in a row. They couldn't get rid of them. And I just like kept stopping by, holding them in fun. Just like,

all right, I'm taking them home. And this is a mutt. And I like hit them in my house, in my parents' house for a month without them knowing. And I was like, what was I thinking? But,

yeah, eventually I was found out. And I had to give a, them to a friend, but yeah, I love, I've always loved dogs. Yeah. So when that deployment ends, what's next for you? This is your second time to Afghanistan, right? Okay.

So that was, with the dogs, it was my third. Oh, it was your third. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. And, you know, along the way, we're losing people, losing friends. And we had to figure out how, you know, the dogs were getting, you know, PTSD and things like that, you know, hitting IEDs.

So we had to figure that out. And, you know, we'd have to kind of go back to square one. But they're resilient, too. We would go back to square one. We had an amazing trainer at the time for seventh group who was phenomenal and just was able to kind of figure things out. But we would just go back to square one and reintroduced them to things slowly and build their confidence back up.

And they were able to get right back to it. It was incredible. And I would just speak of the nature of our dogs that we would figure out at some point that dogs were kind of. done for us. And then local police departments were like, man, this dog's phenomenal. And they would take them and they were still able to work. So we would adopt them out that way. So yeah, that was my third deployment with the initial dog. And then toward this time, I wanted to be a chaplain. And so I had gone through the process of, you know, getting into the program selected. So it was basically like

direct commission. My mom was about to retire after 30 years of being an officer in the Air Force. And I wanted her to pin me. And so they were asking me because I had the special capability, you know, to go back one more time. And I was like, absolutely not because I wanted to get back in time for that. But they put it in writing, which was, I was shocked and they promised that they would get me back in time if I deployed. And they kept their word, which was great. So the, you know, my last deployment, it was about three months. And that, I don't know, one of my last couple of weeks there is getting close to when I was supposed to. to leave. We were in a vehicle like roller. It was just a terrible mission. I should never have gone on it, but it was absolutely horrific. And we survived somehow. It was

eight of us. I remember at one point the vehicle I was in was shot up and finally we were on its side and I can't reach the guys in front of me so I'm thinking they're dead, calling them and answering the radios and I'm talking

to the bird and stuff like that and they're saying be advised. So it's eight of us in three different vehicles. We were trying to get these vehicles into this new area for Marc-Sach to come in, and they were going to helicopter those guys in, and we were going to meet them and kind of do a link up and do some training with them. Real-world training, but this area had been, it's kind of disgusting. They had said, it's basically like there's an American unit and then some allies, and the Taliban had basically made an agreement with them and said, if you guys don't come out the base, we won't attack you.

And so they just lived like that for several years and they were hanging out, you know. And so we had Intel that said, hey, don't go on this mission. And we kept pushing that to hire. One of the benefits of being NSF is you, you know, create your own intel, you make your own missions and things like that. And you're not used to being told by the command that you will do a mission. And we were told to go on this. And so there's some pressure to do.

that. And so we found ourselves going on this mission. And the command said, you know, this is basically like a Taliban training haven. And so there's hundreds of people. We had pictures, hundreds of guys like doing AK-47 PT and stuff like that. They were just training these guys up and like not a good idea for eight of us to go through this area. Like, oh, these guys have retreated for the wintertime. They're gone. And so it's okay to go. and we had Intel saying, hey, this guy just took a picture like a week ago. They're still there. And so anyway, we're on this mission. I remember we got to kind of the decision point and just said, hey, sir, we're getting taken fire.

He's like, ah, don't worry about it. We'll probably get that all day. It's inaccurate. You know, let's push through. And once we push through this point, it's all small. Like you can only take this vehicle one. You couldn't turn around. It's just one direction.

Yeah. And so we had error assets and they're following us and they're just saying, hey, be advised like 200 meters to your, you know, 12 o'clock. They are putting in something that looks like an ID. So we're just kind of guessing and dodging. We were doing that for about four or five hours and we're pretty successful until we finally. I don't know if it was like an RPG or there was a guy on a motorcycle, a suicide bomber. Anyway, I just knew that we were, we hit it.

and we were on our side. And so all this, you know, fired, we were getting shot at for about five, four or five hours. And then it stopped all of a sudden. And so I'm thinking it stopped because it's miraculous, you know, all these things are going through your head. I couldn't get this. We were in RG33s, couldn't get this 300 pound door open. And I'm struggling to get that out. I can't talk with anybody.

And the air asset said, hey, be advised. you've got 100 to 125 armed military aged men en route to your location. Like drop a bomb, you know? Yeah. And they wouldn't do it. And so this is the time when McChrystal had put out the guidance that we wouldn't, people wouldn't cover and concealed positions, we weren't allowed to drop bombs on them.

And so they were literally running with like little sticks and tarps. And that was their cover and concealment as they were running towards us and they wouldn't drop a bomb on them. So you're going to let these hundred guys come and shoot these up. And we're willing to fight. You know, we're willing to fight any point. But we were definitely outgunned, outmanned. And we were in the low ground.

That's the only way to get through this. And they're just coming from the high ground. So at this point, when the vehicle's upside down or on its side, I mean, you know, I'm like, man, it's a miracle. The shooting stop. But what happened is they had slung their weapons and they're just running towards us to kill us, you know. And so I'm the Charlie on the day. team.

I finally get out and the guys come to pull security and I'm trying to blow the vehicle up and, you know, I call in and the command's like, do not blow that vehicle up, stand and fight and we're like, man, are you kidding me? You know, we have no, we're all going to die. And so we kept fighting and they were shooting, you know, as I was rigging it to blow. And at some point, everyone had left, maybe it was six, five or six guys, except for me and one guy and he's like he kept pulling my ankle like you've got to go now and I was like I can't man and um so finally you know uh was able to pull the M81 and and just let it let it rip and you know

we're driving away and we had kind of a a view from the air assets and so we could literally see guys on the vehicles on fire and they're jumping in and trying to pull stuff out as it's burning, but it was just absolutely insane. And so we're down to two vehicles. We're driving, and then we get to another, like one of the vehicles, tire blows up or something like that. And so we have to like get out. We're just getting hammered. And I don't know how that we, we survived. I really don't. But we're towing it back. And the whole time we're calling for this compound for people to come and help us. Nobody would come out. And, uh, There was one SF guy that was waiting to greet us there.

And at some point, when we got close to the compound, he's about a mile out driving a Humvee by himself to come give us support, which is just unbelievable. But nobody else would come out. So we finally get to the compound and our vehicle's all jacked up. And our vehicles are all jacked up. And we're just kind of taking a breather and just can't believe we're alive. And some, I'll tell you the unit, but some sort of Jamaica comes up from some unit. And he's like, are those your vehicles? We're like, yeah, those are our vehicles.

And we're all bloody and, you know, everything's ripped up and stuff like that. And he's like, cover him up. They're scaring my guys. Wow. Yeah. So I'm like, if you don't get this guy away from me, I'm going to kill him. I mean, we were just furious, furious. It was definitely the worst day of my life.

And, you know, we've been in Harry situations before. But that was definitely the one where I was just like, we're all going to die today. And just grace of God, we're alive. What year was this? That was in 2009. And you guys could not get air support. We had air support with us. They were following us.

You couldn't get cast, though. They wouldn't drop. They wouldn't drop, yeah. That's unbelievable. Yeah. So just, I mean, politics were definitely involved in at that at that point. And so just my friends that have stayed the course, and I saw have friends that are still fighting,

I'm just thankful, you know, because I know what they're dealing with. Their hands are tied often, and I'm just grateful for them. Wow. So what happened? So how does this end? Does Marsoc get up there with you guys? Do they make their link up? Eventually.

Eventually. We were stuck there because that wasn't supposed to happen, but they couldn't get. We were stuck there for a couple days and just, you know, our vehicles. We were supposed to, they were supposed to take the vehicles, but the vehicles were destroyed. So it really was a wasted, wasted day, wasted a couple of days. But we were stuck there and we finally were able to get out. And the link up happened. But this was in the bad area.

This is in that area where I can't remember who it was. But one of the 82nd guys went missing. I think they... Burjall. Yeah. Yeah. It was a bad air drop and they went looking for it and they snatched them up and killed them. So, yeah, that was that area.

So during that time, we got to just get out of the compound and go help search and stuff like that as well. So that wasn't burned all that was somebody else. No, I'm sorry. I thought you were saying Baltimore Gop is the area. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So about the becoming a chaplain, did you already have seminary or was that part of the, how does that work?

I was taking classes while I was in. Okay. So I had like a year left. Seminary is kind of three years, 90 credits, if you're going to do it full time. So during the course of my career, I was taking classes. So I had a year left. And it was actually to the point where the Army wanted me to stay. They were in such need of chaplains.

I went to Ranger School as an E7. And so that's because I wanted to go SF. I know you can't stay in SF. So I wanted to support SF. And then I was hoping that because I was tab, they'd at least let me go to Ranger Battine and kind of bounce back and forth. That was kind of my plan. So, yeah, I could have just went straight to it, but I knew I needed to get away from the

army. I had some invisible wounds that I had to deal with, you know, and I had to heal myself. So that was my plan just to get back. And this last deployment, I didn't really know. So TBI wasn't a big deal. Or, I mean, I'm sorry, it wasn't known. It wasn't well known. Right. You know, and so, uh, I got, I hit it one because I wanted to get back in. And so, you know, you come back and they're like, hey, how's your point? Any jatney explosives or, you know, whatever. I'm like, nope, I'm good.

And when I got home, I was blacking out for no reason. If I got my heart rate up, I would pass out. And, and for the first time in my, the four deployments, I was having nightmares and stuff like that. And so, um, I had a photographic memory growing up and that was gone. Bless you. Uh, photographic memory growing up. and that was gone.

And I was looking for answers, but no one had them. You know, I went to Duke University, and the doctor was like, this guy's supposed to be number three in the country or something like that. So he's just doing his in-processing stuff, asking me simple math. And I'm like, I'm sorry.

I don't know what's going on, but I don't know the answer to this question. And I don't know how to, I can't remember how to do the math. And it was like two plus two or something silly. Yeah. So I'm like, something's wrong with my brain. And he starts laughing. I'm like,

idiot. I had a master's degree at the time. It's like not that I'm stupid. It's just something's wrong. And so that was kind of the first step of me getting frustrated with the treatment process. Yeah. I went through a lot of stuff to the VA. And at that point, I was more of, they were testing me to kind of get answers. They weren't giving me treatment. And so it was a pain point. And eventually I just stopped trying to get help. So it wasn't until about two or three years ago that I got the MERT treatment. That was just so helpful. so helpful. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, the MERT is magnetic irresonance therapy, and so you can go and get it. It's about seven to eight week process, but every day it's probably a 30-minute process. So they measure your alpha waves, your brain waves, and they show you kind of where you're at.

And they also initially put that up to where it's supposed to be at. And just those two images were super helpful to explain how I felt. I had an image to say, yeah, this is exactly how I felt. And so, you know, at some point you think, like, maybe you're the problem and that you're, you know, you're weak or whatever it is. But that was really helpful for me just to see. But then every nine days, you get another EEG to show you your brain waves. And you can actually see it your brain starting to heal itself. So it's off.

You have this chart that you can compare it to you, but you see your brain waves starting to get back on track and back in alignment to how a proper functioning brain should be. And I'm, my brain's not perfect. And I have TBI really bad. I forget what I'm saying halfway through things. But the brain's resilient. And it's, my brain's not the same as it used to be, but it works differently. But it's still a brain and it still functions great. So I'm just thankful that I had that treatment.

And one of the things probably, for 10 years, I just, I didn't get more than three hours of sleep a night. And I couldn't be in like bright lights and things like that. That's gone. I can sleep like eight hours. And I think a lot of, you know, sleep leads to like PTSD issues and things like that. And it really helped me a lot significantly. So with, so did you actually leave active duty?

Did you leave the Army when you became a chaplain? I did. So I left to go into the reserves to finish my last year of seminary. So I was actually a chaplain candidate. So I was in the reserves, which was also very painful just to leave that. So that was like me cementing the fact that I knew I didn't want to go back to the regular army. It was painful. You know, ask someone to do something. You have to ask them 10 times. And just you were, it wasn't the same caliber of people. And that's who I really wanted to serve. You know, I felt drawn. to the SF community, the special ops community. I wanted to serve that group of people. I saw, and of course, over years of being in the group, I saw people that were suffering, and those are the people I really wanted to help. So, yeah.

You know, you talked about your faith, how it was more performative as you were growing up. At what point, or was there a point in your military career, when you're, you know, you've accomplished everything, you set out to do, you know, not only have gotten an SF, but you're taking a step further into, you know, to be a combat diver. At what point do you start thinking that you want to serve in a

different way? Yeah, so I'd go back to that first deployment. So I had just a rough time personally through like a relationship issue, my first deployment. And, you know, I've told two people since then, but they didn't know. My team didn't know, and this was probably the last three years that I've told them on my team, but that diploma, I tried to kill myself, and they thought that, I mean, I probably took, I don't know, 150 pills and stuff like that, and somehow I got in the middle of night and just, I don't know what happened, but they found me like the next day, 10 o'clock in the morning, just laying in the middle of the, in our little compound area, and getting smote by the sun, and they just thought I had some virus or something, but I was just dealing with that issue,

just didn't feel like I had a way out. and, you know, I was able to, somehow I was able to do that. I think I leaned on my faith, and I really felt, there's absolutely no reason I should be alive from that. It just doesn't make sense. And they didn't treat me, because they didn't know what happened. They were testing my blood and trying to figure out what they didn't know how to treat me. And I was unconscious, I think, for two or three days.

And they just thought I was like overworking and stuff like that. And so it was hard. But I leaned on my faith through that. I felt like I had a second chance at life and just worked really hard to get back into it emotionally. And it was really my spiritually, because you know, you're working out physically. You're around great people, but that wasn't enough. And so it was really the spiritual part of that that really helped me. And so that's one big reason that I wanted to really pursue that avenue as being a chaplain.

It's, you know, not the guy. get to the point of suicide often, but relationship issues when you're overseas, when you're powerless to do anything about it, like it brings a lot of people down. It really affects their performance, their behavior, their attitude, because you are. You're, the person who you're trying to work things out with or whatever else, you know, they're a billion miles away at the other end of the phone that they may or may not pick up or will hang up anytime. Like it can be super, super challenging. Yeah.

Yeah. And you have to, you know, you have to be there for the guys to your left and your right, you know. And you can't make mistakes and you have to be on your A game. And so it's hard mentally when you're dealing with stuff. But it's everyone has to deal with that, right? I think if it's not a marriage issue or something like that or something like that or something another, it's a child that you're dealing with. Maybe they're rebelling because you're deployed.

And so you just have to figure out a way to either a lot of guys, I think, suppress it and they push it down. And then when they get out, they're dealing with it. It all comes to the surface. And sometimes it's because of lost relationships. And their kids don't, you know, they get out in the Army and they're like, all right, great. And then their kids don't want to talk to them and things like that. Yeah.

So it's hard. It's hard. But I think we're doing a lot better job as a regiment, like encouraging people to tell stories and tell their story and and getting help and so that's that's one thing I'm proud of is that you know I know that a lot of people you know we we don't have as much well maybe we don't we're not as much of a faith-based society anymore and now psychology is sort of you know taking the place I think a lot of times of chaplains and things like that but guys are afraid to go to psychologists because they're afraid of getting flag not being able to go out lead the wire of you know all these things do you think that the

military needs to invest more into the idea of chaplains interfaith whatever but but somebody who guys can go guys and gals but somebody who when they're in these situations especially when they're isolated that they have somebody that they can go to and just you know talk Absolutely. I mean, chaplains are, you've got bad chaplains, right, just like anything else. Sure. But you've, I think one part of that is education as well. So a lot of people think that chaplains are just going to push religion and things like that. But they're really taught to find you where you're at.

And so sometimes spirituality doesn't really come into the conversation. It's just having someone to listen to you. And sometimes it's all you need. You know, you can solve your own problems if you just are willing to talk it out. And then you're like, chaplain hasn't said a word. And then you're just like, oh, that was great. Thanks. And you've solved your own issue.

And so it really is, I think a good chaplain is a good listener and a good coach to coach you through kind of navigating your own story and as a person that's willing to journey with you. And it's hard, right? If you're some things I was reading Trevor Beeman's book recently, he wrote a book called No One Else Can See Your Fire. And so, you know, he was molested at eight years old. And so I picked that up and I'm serving and stuff like that.

And I had like three other people that I was that were in a tough time. And so I was like, man, I had to put the book down just for their first day or so because I didn't have enough empathy to kind of read through it. But you're just willing to journey with those people. And, you know, I think his story is amazing. You should read it. But I think it's important to just have someone to listen to. And in our environment sometimes, it's an area where it's not okay to show weakness, you know, and people will kind of judge you or react to it.

I think we're getting better at that, but it's still hard. Yeah. Yeah. So you're in the reserve, you're finishing your last, the last bit of seminary, you get ordained? Yes. So part of that is working through a local church, working. And that's, I wanted to be, if you're an SF guy, you get. mentors you've got a you've got a senior and stuff like that and so there's a learning period and so

I didn't just want to have the educational piece I wanted to have the experiential piece to bring alongside and so I worked a local church and they ordained me and to send me back but during that time that I was out so my faith group they had enough of those people and they just said that if you I didn't want to be in the reserves I worked at the asymmetrical warfare group at the time and they said that if you don't get picked up, then you have to stay in the reserves, and I don't want to do that. So I didn't go back in. Okay. And then did

you, what did you do next, though? So you're with AWG, you are an ordained chaplain. Yeah. Which, you know, is, you know, it's one of those things that, of course you are because you're former S.F. So, That makes total sense, you know. But also, how do those two pieces fit in your life?

Yeah. I mean, I always went in the up, the, within the mindset that I get to be with these people. So at AVG, like, man, legends worked there when I was there. And I got to be around those people. I got to hear their stories. And I just got to do life with them. And so there's a transitional period. I know a lot of people suffer transitioning, even as contractors.

and being at a great unit as AWG. So I think my ministry, if you want to call it that, was just being there with these guys and helping them transition. So finding joy and being out of the military, part of it, I think people summarize, one guy was asked, you know, what do people want from work? And, you know, he summarized that people want to be on a winning team. They want to be valued and they want to be doing inspiring work.

And so generally I think people could find two of those three, but they couldn't necessarily find all three after leaving the military. And so they struggle. And so I would just kind of come alongside guys and just kind of encourage them to take what made them great in on active duty and the skills that they learned to take that into their next venture, whether it was starting a company or being in the role that they're in. But a part of that I think is the contracting world as well. So contract, they bring you in. They fit this one role and they hire you for that role. And then five years later, the contract ends.

And they're like, hey, thanks for your service. See you. And they cut you. Ideally, I think that they should say, hey, we're hiring you for this role, but we're predicting out what we would need in the future. And so we're going to develop you in this role to fill this role in three years or so. And I think that's important. But what happens is they end up hiring someone from outside and then everyone gets angry.

Like, I should have been in that role and everyone quits and leaves. then the company's struggling. So for people who may not be familiar with it, because asymmetric warfare group was a fairly novel concept and of great importance too. But can you tell us a little bit about asymmetric warfare group? Yeah. So, I mean, the goal was to, you know, plan out and to see where the enemy was going to be next, right?

And so you're finding ways to understand the mindset of the enemy and we're at the same time developing training plans to defeat that capability before it even got off the ground. And so I think that's the biggest part of AWG. But they had like R&D and stuff like that as well. But that was the best thing that AWG brought to the table. And it's a capability that I'm not aware that we have now and it's needed. Yeah. Yeah, it was a very unique group.

And so what happens after AWG or, you know, what's next for you? Yeah, so I mean, I bounced around as a contractor all, and I kind of, I fit in that peg, right? And so I could always find two of the three of those things, but I found, I was motivated by being able to support my family. You know, I've got married three kids and stuff like that, and that was important to me. was enough. But at some point, you know, I started a company in 2021 and, and I'm able to do the things or try to do the things that I felt other companies were, you know, kind of short-sighted and things like that. So it's small, but it's doing work. And I'm happy to have conversations and really to train. That's my passion is just to train and to lead people.

and so it's been good. Do you, if you want to plug your company, feel free. If you want to talk about it. Yeah, it's all of drive technologies, LLC. And we focus on really program management, but focusing on also the people. So finding the right people for the right jobs and filling shoes on contracts.

So olive drab? Technologies. Technologies, LLC. Yeah, people check that out. And then, so that's, what you're working on now and what else you're married three three kids yeah um i assume they all swim they do they do you know i think it's important uh i think that's one of my my biggest tricks dave is that um you know if you're wise you at some point have to trick your kids and the fine

loving the things that you love and so that you can spend time with them doing the things that you enjoy so i've coached that into them and we all love the water we love getting away and that we always try to take vacations are on water. That's fantastic. And what else is going on for you right now? So I volunteer. I do a lot of volunteering. And so, again, my passion is just to help people.

So I serve as a chaplain for, you know, the local hospital. I'd get in there like once a week. And that's been fantastic. It's hard. I mean, people die all the time. But I really considered a privilege to be next to them. Last week, a deer marine Vietnam vet passed. But I got to spend.

of his last moments with him. And he told me the story, I'll share it with you. He said he went into the Marines. He was 5-7, lost his legs in Vietnam. And so he was getting his prosthetics made and stuff like that. And the guy asked him like, hey, how tall do you want to be? And he's like, are you serious? He said, I've always wanted to be 6-2.

So he said, I went in the Marines 5-7, I came out 6-2. So I love it. I love that. I told him I keep sharing a story. Oh, yeah. And how? So you are obviously, you're somebody who has been around death. You know, your best friend died in scuba school.

Yeah. You know, committed, you know, what was the phrase? Body bagger bubble? Body bag or bubble, right? Yeah. And he was committed to that. And then throughout your years in combat, and now as a chaplain and sort of also as kind of a death duel, I guess,

or I don't know what the term for that is. but as somebody who sits with people, how has, what's that theme like? What is your experience from the past like brought to you? Does it trigger things for you because of your past? Does it make you more empathetic or understanding because of your past? Yeah, I would say, I would say one of the best things, two of the best things about me are that I'm willing to cry and I had to learn that.

So my father passed away two years ago and I had to do his funeral. and I just noticed, you know, I just, you go in that mode, you got to do the work and did the funeral, but I, you know, you step back afterwards and we were reflecting, and I just remember like, man, everyone around me was crying. I didn't shed a single tear. Didn't shut a single, well, it wasn't that, wasn't grieving, but I didn't shed a single tear. And so I just noticed that I wasn't, I'd lost that capability. And when I thought about it, I'm like, man, it's been 15, 16 years since I've shed a

tear. And I think that's the, the worst thing I've done for my kids is that I didn't show them that it's okay to cry, that it's, you know, there's moments for it, right? You don't want to just be a crybaby. Right. But you, to have empathy. And I showed them that dad gets up early, dad works hard. And that, um, and I, it seemed to them, I think maybe that they don't see me struggle. And I think it's, it's important to allow them to see me struggle and prevail. Um, and, and just have those conversations like, yeah, things are hard. But. you just keep getting after it. And so, yeah, as a leader, I think one of things as I cry,

and then the other thing is just being able to share stories and share my personal journey. And that's been helpful. And so I think that's the best thing I bring to the chaplaincy and is to get other people to share their stories and be willing to listen. So, you know, there's a guy that's 94 years old. And I'm like, man, this is just a privilege just to hear his story.

But he was in so much pain that he couldn't even open his eyes and I had to be literally this close to his ear to to so he could hear me that's how old he was but man he was just sharp and his his story was amazing and um and I got to help him process death right and so you live this great life and I just got to help him navigate that stage and I he died when I was holding his hand and so yes it's it's hard but I think if it weren't for that my time in the military, I don't think I'd be at this point. I don't think I'd be as great of a caregiver as I am, but it's been through the lessons learned through some of those hardships. Yeah, it's fantastic. Have we left anything out? Well, let me talk about your book for a second real quick,

because I really enjoyed this book. It's a super easy read. It's a great read. It is not what, it's not, it's different from any other book that we've read from a veteran of this time period. Because it really is just about your pursuit, you know, your history with water, the black community's history with water, which was fascinating, and your pursuit of special forces

and then the diver qualification. And it's got a great title that when I saw it when the Combat Diver Association posted something about it and I just immediately made me laugh and I was like, I need to talk to that guy right now and Lino put us in touch. Yeah, I appreciate it. I appreciate it.

And, you know, while I will often recommend, you know, the books we have on to everybody, you know, or tell people what I like about them, one thing I'd recommend, this, not only is this great book for an adult to read, but this is a great book, I think, for a team to read, because it shows, you know, positivity through adversity, you know, through, you know, succeeding through failure, when things don't work out the way you want them to do, like how you reassess, how you, you know, meet yourself where you are and try again.

You know, it's a fantastic book. You know, it's a fantastic book. And I highly recommend black people can't swim. I highly recommend it. And like I said, it's a great, links down in the description. It's great book for adults, great book for teens. Do we have any questions for Dan? We have a couple.

Okay. Have we left anything out that you want to talk about? I don't think so, yeah. And then the next show, you guys, I'll be out. Will you guys be doing that on the 20th with Uriah? Uriah Pop. Okay, so that's coming up on the 20th for you guys. And then episode 300, October 3rd, I believe.

John Ramsey, thank you very much for the generous donation. Oh, this is one of the best military channels on YouTube. Thanks, John. We agree. And we are one of the best because we get people like the moon, and we deeply appreciate you spending a Friday night with us. M. Corbyn, thank you very much. What would you alter, if anything, about combat dive school?

That's a great question. Again, I don't know where they're at now, but I would bring it back to everyone went to the last hard school, right? but I would bring it back to just how it used to be as far as doing the hard stuff in the pool. Though people have passed away in that school, they've got the best staff possible. It's one of the best places to be,

and so sometimes it's just people's fate. But yeah, those lessons are needed, so I would put it back to what used to be. Do you think that has the school Because, like, I know the school has a reputation as being probably the most challenging school in the U.S. Army. Do you feel that may not be the case anymore in terms of have they become too risk adverse for that? I'm not sure. I don't know exactly how they're doing it, but I know they're, I think they've changed it back to a little bit, you know, the way it used to be.

So I think maybe they're taking the necessary precautions in their minds, but from the people I've talked to, it's still difficult. still difficult. Yeah. And then again, another one from Corbyn. Thank you very much. From my work with dogs, they are self-aware, in my opinion, that mirror test is stupid. I don't know what the mirror test is. Do you know what the mirror test is?

I'm not sure what he's saying. I guess it's... Maybe he's saying that the dog doesn't recognize itself in the mirror. Oh, I don't know. I gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dee, did you see if we have anything on Patreon? Some pets are smarter than others. I think some recognize themselves and realize what they're looking at, and others definitely do not. Absolutely. I mean, look, to be honest, there are mornings I don't recognize myself from here. Who the hell is this old guy looking back at me? What's going on here?

Yeah. Demo, thank you so much for your time. We deeply appreciate it. I appreciate it. been great. A great chance to meet you guys, and I appreciate you having me on. Check out our friends at Casa Carabao Cigars slash shoutout, casacarabello.com. Run by a 7th Special Forces Group alumni, retired warrant officer. Please go check them out, guys. And that's it. Next show is with these two guys on the 20th.

Thanks, everybody.