The Team House - Special Forces/CIA secret missions with martial arts legend Jim "Smokey" West, Ep. 44.

Episode Date: May 30, 2020

Jim "Smokey" West is a retired 7th Special Forces Group Warrant Officer and is also the founder of American Extension Fighting. In this episode we discuss his rough upbringing, his martial arts background going back to the 70's, and his Special Forces career. We also talk about how he was "sheep dipped" or seconded to the CIA for classified missions to Central America in the 1980's. Jim's book "A Mind for a Fight" can be found on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Mind-Fight-Evolutionary-Systems-Focused-Self-Defense/dp/B085RRZ58D Support the stream on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/m/TheTeamHouseBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Being a parent can be really challenging. It's normal to feel uncertain about whether you're doing the right things to raise healthy and happy children. That's why Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five with free support services to help them build confidence in their parenting journey. Everyone deserves to have someone they can turn to for support with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today.

We are live on YouTube. This is episode 44 of the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with co-host Dave Park. We are on tonight with our special guest here for the second time. You may recognize Jim West from episode seven way back when we really didn't know what we were doing. Now we sort of know what we're doing. Jim is a lifelong martial arts practitioner. He is a retired Special Forces warrant officer with extensive.

experience in South and Central America. He's a Gulf War veteran. And he's a good friend of mine. So Jim, Jim is many things in life that we're going to get into in this show. He also has a new book out called A Mind for a Fight. You got the book, Jim? Can show it off for us, please? I do have the book out right here. I read, I just finished the book last night. Dave is halfway through reading it. And I have to say it's really, really good. It is an introduction to Jim's fighting system called American Extension Fighting, something he's been telling me about since I think the first time I met him, I don't even know how many years, what was that, like 2013 maybe?

Yeah, probably 2013, exactly, yeah. Can't believe that. The same meeting, same first time I ever met you, you told me about this idea you had for a night. Like, yeah, I got it. It's all up in my head. And there it is. So was that the night we all hung out?

or was it before that? It was before that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, it was hard to believe it was seven years ago. It's wild. And I wish we could be doing this interview in person, but, you know, the situation being what it is, we're all adapting and being as flexible as possible. So thank you for joining us tonight, Jim.

I really appreciate it. No, anything for you guys, like you're also a very dear friend of mine as well. So if anything I do to help support, and also if any of my friends, cohorts and all the rest of folks, just want to thank him for logging on today, you know, and it's pretty cool. Yeah, absolutely. And I hope this, you know, is interesting for our viewers and the people who check it out later on the podcast and everything else, because we're going to talk about martial arts.

We're going to talk about your background. We're going to talk about your military career. We're going to talk about the contents of the book. that I was really impressed with. It was really well done. I'm not just saying that because you're a friend of mine. I think you and the gent that worked on the book with you, Justin, you guys just really did a terrific job with it.

And it's got me really excited to see what your next project is going to be. Like, where are you going to take it after this? Because this book really is, it's kind of an introduction to the system. Yeah, well, it's more than a system. The system, you know, a system is just that, you know. but the book itself is, it can be the underpinning architecture, the framework for virtually any system that's already out there to take what they currently do. And there's a lot of good stuff out there, but it's very difficult and very seldom that you'll find one system that has everything in it. So there's a lot of gap filling and unifying structure.

And one of the things within the book that makes that easier to, do is we restructured the original technical fight principles written by Joe Lewis and Bruce Lee and those guys many, many, many years ago to make it more digestible. Like Royce Bartlett from IHeartRadios after we did our interview. He said, yeah, Jim, you've really done a great job. You've taken the cookies from the top shelf and put them on the bottom shelf and made them digestible. And that was really important that when I was working,

with Justin is that we they were pragmatic and so anybody could read it but they're so layered that whether you're a beginner or if you've been a seasoned fighter for many years or a grandmaster, you can take these layers and just continually grow these principles to help your teaching style no matter what you do. Jim, when Dave and I were doing a little bit of prep for the show, we both kind of agreed that, you know, we should really start with the beginning. which is where your book starts with sort of your upbringing and how, you know, Jim West came to be because I think that explains so much about both why you got interested in martial arts and why you joined the military and why you pursued some of the paths you did in life.

Oh, well, you know, when I was young, I don't think we ever stayed in one house more than two years growing up. I mean, I think even today a lot of people, Yeah, I love my mom. I love my dad. Even if they drink a lot and beat you around and do things, we just interpret that as what love is supposed to be because as a child, you kind of brought into the world going, you know, that's just what's, that's love, you know. They beat your ass and lock you in your room. And, of course, we lived in Georgia for many years as a one as a kid. And I had three cousins that live next door and two brothers that live. me and they're all older. I was the youngest and there were two girls in the mix, too, but I was the youngest of all. Of course, both my brothers and most of my cousins have all passed

away and they were pretty much all green berets as well, you know, but as kids, they were rough, you know, they used to punish me a lot, you know, and beat me around and experiment with my body. I mean, I got my first set of stitches when I was 18 months old by being tossed to the back window of the door in the house, you know, this stuff, while they were playing games. First time I ever got up on a bike without the training wheels, they shoved me into a ditch full of briar patches. And the stories are just endless, right? We saw, yeah, I had a dirt road going from our cousin's house to our house. Of course, yeah, about the, it's about 10 or 11 years old or whatever, but we moved

back to Virginia, Richmond, because that's where my grandfather, grandparents lived, They were they were kind of circling the drain, as my mother would say. They were getting ready to pass away. So we moved in with them as well. It was pretty crowded. My grandfather was a 6'8 chairman from Germany, and my grandmother was an Italian. So he was kind of rough. Now, he's a blacksmith.

And if you didn't mind your manners or acted like a kid, he just slapped you around. And he was six foot eight. He was really just a hardcore guy. My dad was a very hardcore guy as well. He was in the Battle of the Bulge. Sheet metal worker and iron workers. So, you know, he used to bear a knuckle box. And in fact, him and one of his war buddies used to have to drive 85 miles to find a bar

that they weren't banned from from fighting. So honestly, so in my grandfather was a world champion wrestler, A.D. Holton, you can find him out there. So fighting's kind of been just a way of life, you know, it wasn't about doing the right thing or the wrong thing. It's just really, for me, it was surviving, especially being the smallest because I always felt like I had something to prove. I even remember when I went to the first grade, these were kind of poor and they were making

fun of my shoes, got a hole in my shoes. So I got in a fight with these two guys. And, you know, I got sent home the first day in the first grade. So I didn't, psychologically, I didn't think there was anything wrong with fighting. I just thought that's, that was what you were supposed to do. And I feel really lucky and truly blessed to even be here at 66 years. years old with you guys and a lot of friends and fans out there just listening, you know, there's want to be a part of all this. And because I wasn't always the friendly guy that you know

here today, you know, which is a big part of the book. I mean, a lot of my karate buddies I grew up with, you know, it's like you say I lived on the dark side because, you know, the old tradition and the respect and the discipline, you know, it was good while I was in the gym, but then I'd go out and drink and fight every night. And whatever I learned in the gym, I tried to experiment with in the street. So to the point where we are today in the book, I have a ton of experience, you know,

and reality-based situations coupled with a lot of technical expertise. So, you know, and then the military background. I think, you know, Jim, when I ask other people about you who were in the military back in the 70s and 80s and into the 90s, you know, they remember, in so many ways. I mean, no shit. They remember Jim West, the animal. You know, one of the first things you told me, you know, that your older brother had told you, when people see a green beret, they expect an animal. So you give them an animal. So you give them an

animal. And I feel very fortunate, though, that like the Jim West I know is the man. I got to know a different person. And I'm very grateful for that in multiple ways. I'm glad I didn't get kicked through a railing at a bar somewhere thrown into the grass. But I've also, So, no, I just am very glad that, you know, when I met you in life, that I got to see the real person underneath. Well, I appreciate that, Jack, means a lot because, you know, the tragedy and experiences that life can pass your way, even your way, you know, and Dave's way. It's, you know, we experience a lot of things, not just at home, the older you live, people around you pass away, they die, divorces, tragic situations, you know, come your way. And a lot of times they're uninvited. And, you know, as combat veterans, you know, we've not only killed people, we've seen a lot of people get killed. And, you know, we suffer from

our own hidden injuries, right? And, you know, actually it took the death of my oldest son a little more than 17 years ago to start the process that caused me to slow down and recoup everything and figure out, you know, what was really happening, you know, because for the next four or five years, I was feeling a lot of guilt and shame that, you know, because anybody that's been in combat, they probably have seen collateral damage women and kids. And you might have done a few things you're not proud of as well, right? And I just felt like I was being punished for the next several years by a higher power. And that's what actually led me to the VA. And for a long time, I wouldn't openly discuss my PTSD and all that.

But actually, you're a big catalyst as well when you got to helping me start writing on a book many years ago because writing has been a salvation for me to be able to write my thoughts in front of me without anybody judging me or, you know, it's just a good way to express yourself, good, bad or indifferent. And anything you can get that out, you know, get it out of you, it's just better. Well, Jim, before, I think we're jumping a little bit ahead. Yeah. So that people understand why you're saying what you're saying and why you've had these experiences.

We got to like understand before all that. You know, by the end of this interview, I think they'll understand your words will have a lot more meaning. Can you tell us about, you know, what led you into the military and into special forces? I mean, you talked about how your brothers were in the military and then, you know, your introduction into martial arts. actually jack if you don't mind jim before we get to that there you had some really formative moments like in childhood right i mean you were you were conducting guerrilla warfare against your brothers by the time you were 10 years old right let's try about five years old okay can you tell us like a little bit like like what your sort of formative was you know or the formative

thoughts around that the booby traps you would set up things like that and then uh in your book you mentioned the fight in high school. Yeah. How that was very, very formative for you. And then your talk to your principal after that and sort of the realization you came to because of what he said. Yeah. Those are very important, like you said, formative moments in my youth. And but as a young guy, when you say, I was like doing terrorism as a child. And I don't mean that in a political way, right? Just guerrilla warfare, basically. And like my brothers would do bad things, always constantly.

They put me in a, my uncle bought a refrigerator. They had the refrigerator box. And they made me sit in there and they dragged it down the street for about 100 meters before the bottom fell out on a motorcycle and just tore me all up, you know. So, oh, and by the way, if you tell Mom, we're just going to whip your ass, tell they got hit by a car, you know, they'll make me. climbed trees and they would cut the tree down. I had to fall with the tree. They, they threw me in quicksand, honestly. I'm almost up to about here, tugged me out, just, just, just constantly

terrorizing me. I would do things, you know, like I would, I would find a hammer and a nail and a piece of wood, and I'd drive nails through the wood, and I would go out there and bury it in the yard where I knew they were playing, and the leaves. So I was always setting booby traps and snares. So hopefully they would step on them, fall on them, just, and they did. I mean, there was, there was some injuries because of my, my youthful guerrilla warfare. Were the traps meant to maim, to kill, to annoy? Like, did you know at that time what you were trying to do? No, it was not so much killing them, Amy.

I just wanted to hurt them, you know? Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, because they'd hurt you. You want to get them back. Yeah, I just wanted to hurt them. You know, they set me up one time. They took all the pins out of my mother's pin cushion and put, buried them all in a 200 pins and a blanket.

And they say, hey, we're playing airborne. Jump off there and I jump off and it's, yeah, I felt like I jumped in the nettle. You know, it's just a nonstop as a child. Were you, were you smarter than they were? I mean, you were younger. So did you, did you find that you had to be craftier? There's a difference between crafty and smarter, you know. I mean, you know, sometimes you can be extremely smart and uneducated.

And, you know, I think craft is a hand-me-down tool, you know, because, you know, every time we see people do something, we watch a futuristic movie thing, you know, we're looking at that movie, especially with our personal bloodline, you know, experience. And we're going, oh, I'll try that, you know. So we learn from our own mistakes and we learn from other people's as well, you know, not just the lagging indicators, but the leading indicators, you know, what they do well. because, you know, when they're not around, I'd always rehearse and practice, you know, just, and I started doing that early in life. And I'd really like to hear about your high school experience. And the reason is is because whether we're talking about a bar fight, self-defense, you know, a mugger, or a combat, I think that one of the things is often overlooked is the mentality

of that we're carrying around. And a lot of people freeze in those situations. because they're completely unprepared for it. Like the reality hits them and their mind goes into this, is this real? Is this happening? How much danger am I in? You know, all these different things.

So we get this stutter step in our head, but you had this experience in high school that you mentioned in your book that was very formative for it. Yeah, well, I had a lot of experience. And, you know, the people that are close to our age will understand more so than maybe a lot of the younger millennial guys because I'm a whole lot of things, but I'm clearly not a racist. One of my children is part Japanese, one's part Spanish, you know, my best friends are Anthony Bradley.

You know, I spent a lot of time in boxing gyms when I was young and have a lot of Afro-American friends. You know, so, you know, I got you guys. You know, I got warriors over here too. So, you know, all ages, I don't discriminate, you know, if a person's an asshole, he's an asshole. And no matter what, and if he's not, then we can get along, you know. when I was going to high school, I guess I was leading into the old Martin Luther King days and, you know, everything was about equal rights and peaceful protest, unlike the ones that are going on today in Minnesota. And they were, you know, so I think it's anybody has a right to protest peacefully, but it wasn't that way always. And then they started forced integration or what they called busing back in the day because you'd have to get on a bus and get trans, you know, get up earlier, missed your brown.

breakfast, go halfway across town and going to a crowd of people, whether they're white or black or Chinese, it didn't matter. You didn't know who they were. You didn't know the neighborhood. And you're clearly not happy. And I actually bounced to three high schools, but the first year of my ninth year, you know, the racial imbalance was probably 1500 Afro-Americans, about 100, 150 white guys. We got busting, which is fine with me. I didn't care. I never did care. When we were very young living in Georgia, I used to literally go out to the farms and the cotton fields and the, you know, my mom owned the record store and Sam and Dave and James Brown. They're all from Millageville and making Georgia area. You know, so we didn't think about color in those days, honestly.

But until I got into the ninth grade and there seemed to be a lot of tension, you know, I can say you call that racial tension. But I think it's just people were pissed off not being in the neighborhood. or close to their home, taken out of their routine. You know, so one day, a friend of mine, Spence and I were walking to school, had multiple pieces, and they had a bridge walkway on the second floor between two sections, and we're just walking. And there's a cluster of Afro-Americans that cluster. It could have been 25, 50, or 100, because it was just a big crowd, like they're going to a show.

And it was wintertime. And back in those days, you know, everybody was trying to be stylish with the maxi coats and all that good stuff, you know, so you're going to hide a lot of weapons there, right? So anyway, they jumped on us. They grabbed Spence. He tried to fight back. He was a scrappy little Irish guy.

They actually literally threw him out the window out to the second floor. And how he avoided breaking a lot of bones and stuff is beyond me. He actually ended up okay, a couple of bruises and stuff. Being a parent can be a lot of bones. really challenging. It's normal to feel uncertain about whether you're doing the right things to raise healthy and happy children. That's why Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five with free support services to help them build confidence in their parenting journey. Everyone deserves to have someone they can turn to

for support with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. Being a parent can be really challenging. It's normal to feel uncertain about whether you're doing the right things to raise healthy and happy children. That's why Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five with free support services to help them build confidence in their parenting journey. Everyone deserves to have someone they can turn to for support with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. and a couple sore joints. But they were coming after me and I had no plan.

And next thing you know, I was encircled. So I dove on a floor because I was starting to get beat up. And they had the old radiators with the lead paint. Then I grabbed the piping at the bottom and I'm holding on my dear life. And they're starting to kick me and pull at me. And I could feel that pipe shaking. So I just pulled that. You want to get thrown out the window, right?

I didn't want to, that was exactly right. I don't mind fighting. I didn't want to get tossed out the window. And so that pipe is old, you know, kind of corroded and rusty. It broke loose. So I started cracking a few shins. And about this time, I didn't really have a plan. I was just going nuts.

And a gun goes off. And I'm like, holy, everybody just took off running. So that was like a Thursday or Friday. Anyway, I came back to school Monday. And I went to my first period class, Jim. we've got to go to the principal's office. Okay. What's this all about? Find out when you get there. So I go down there, sit and wait.

Our principal was a former athlete football player, really big Afro-American gentleman, and taught me a life lesson that was just, you know, it lives with me even to this day, not just for me, but when I train other people to defend themselves, you know. And he brought me in and says, you know, it's not that you did anything wrong in this situation. but whenever we have a violent act or instant occur, we send everybody home for a cooling down period for three days. And so we're suspending you for three days, which is kind of hard to tell my mom because I get worse ass whipping at home than at school.

And he continued to talk to me. He says, have you ever heard of the dozens? I said, no, I don't know what's the dozens? It's a game. He said a lot of black youth these days. They'll play like how they're one up. you like your mama wears combat boots and, oh, your mama does something, you know, they just kind of one up and or one down each other, just constantly busting each other

chops, right? So he says, and he says, I, he said, you did the right thing, but I'm not encouraging you to fight. I said, what are you talking about? He goes, you're right to fight back. He says, young Afro-American, or he's caught, said blacks these days, you know, teenagers, he said, by time they're 18 years old, they probably had 100 fights. He said, they probably lost 50 of them. And there's no difference to them between winning and losing, guaranteed you're going to get a fight. And if you don't fight back, they're not going to respect you.

And every time they see you, they're going to want more. You know, like if they ask you for a nickel today, next time they want a dime, and the next time they want a court, I call it nickel dime theory, right? But he says, if you fight back, even if you lose, you're going to earn a respect, you know. So that was a lifelong lesson that, like I said, I feel very blessed just to be here today because if you piss off enough people, especially in today's climate, somebody's going to sneak up wanting to shoot you. But so I've taken these, all those lessons and kind of compiled them with everything else I've learned through the

martial arts industry and the military and just training in general and just starting to apply and get back now. So. Well, I want to just quote you real quick from your book, because what you said in your book, you said from that day forward, I accepted that fighting was not just a part of life, but away life. The difference in fact between having a life at all and being put down in the street. And then you said, every day I fully expect to come across someone who intends to visit harm on me, if that's the case they're in for a surprise. So that, whether it was in the military in combat and in hand-to-hand in the street or whatever. Today, sitting in my apartment. Yeah, that became your sort of driving force, right?

Honest to God, I mean, I'm a different person, Jack. I'm a lot more sociable and charismatic nowadays, right? But, you know, I can't walk down the street, drive down the highway without analyzing size and people up looking for the threat. looking for the hands, watching their direction of movement, you know, just it's, it's on and on and on. If I go into a store stuff, I look around pathways, outways, if I see like a jam, like a basket and a grocery, I just go down another aisle. It's just ingrained, built in. It is a way of life with me. And certain things, you know, those spots may fade, but they never go away. And even today just, you know, half and just with just with my friends at work and stuff, you know, because now I'm 66 years old.

I'm not a star athlete like I was when I was on a combat dive teams and stuff. But I'm, I can guarantee you a handful, you know, because, you know, you are who you are. I mean, I know you as well. And you're very similar in a lot of respects. you know, I appreciate it. So Jim, can you tell us then about, you know, how you got into special forces and, you know, your introduction into martial arts space.

I remember was it when you were stationed in Germany before you went to SF? Yeah. Because I was, you know, catch wrestling and, you know, slap boxing, street boxing, street fighting. And, you know, and actually when I joined the army, it was funny. By the time I got to my third high school, it was a, Catholic military academy in Richmond, Virginia. And I was in the 11th grade and I'd already failed a grade.

And just constant, I had earned so many demerits by this time. Halfway through the year, I was 17 years old. And my mom came in to speak to Father Adrian and we're sitting down and they're having this conversation like I'm not even in the room about in order to graduate, I'm going to have to stay after school. I got to join the team. I got to clean the bathroom. I've got to work off all these demerits. I got to shovel snow. And they're plotting my life out here and wait in terms that I disagree with.

And I looked at my mom and I said, I said, F that. I don't want to curse, right? So I said, F that. And she goes, what? I said, and my brothers, listen, and cousins, when they were all in Vietnam, and I went going to high school and I come home, me and my sister, and every night she's sitting there drinking and watching TV. Remember, they didn't have telephones.

They didn't have radios. They didn't have ways to communicate, you know. And like you're watching a news broadcast where 58 Americans were killed and wondered, why your mom drank so much every day of the week. And the news, they had three channels wondering if her kids have been killed, you know, because, you know, and sometimes rough, you know, but I, I, I, so, you know, I was just sitting around and it was kind of always in the back of my mind. I said, you know, when my brothers all left me alone at home with my sister, I'm like,

you know, I've got to join the Army one day. So I'd been thinking about it a bit that as soon as I could, I would join because honest to God, my rationale was irrational. I just said, I refused to be sitting at a bar like my parents one day, listening to my brothers and cousins, talk about war and not have my own war story. So it was just kind of sinking in. And then at this moment, while they were debating about how it was going to work off all of these demaris, said, Mom, F that.

She goes, what did you say? I said, can I join the Army? She goes, yeah. Thank you for your time, Father Adrian. We're out of here. Got in the car, drove down to the replacement station in Richmond, Virginia. And as the air, air, Force Army Marines are all in one linear structure and the Air Force guys up there and I walked in the first door and the first thing out of his mouth, do you have your, I remember Vietnam still going on, so they were taking anything, you know, do you have your high school diploma? No, we can't join the Air Force.

Navy was next. High school diploma? No, can't join. And then the Army and the Marines are right there. I was looking at the Marine door and the Army guy came out and just pulls me in and I said, look, I don't have. have a high school diploma. He says, we're giving GEDs in the back room. So I went back, took a GED test and just crushed it. And I mean, crushed it. So they went home. I literally had the clothes on my back, a bag, lunch, a toothbrush, got on, went back down in, yeah, I was eight to nine o'clock at night. I don't even remember. We got on a bus. It was January 10th, 1972, boom, right to Fort Campbell, Kentucky. We get there at two or three in the morning, get off the bus. All of the drill instructors back then were all the way from World War II, Korean, Vietnam, former POWs, Purple Heart, you know, wounded in war. And they wanted to make sure that you didn't get wounded

or he came back alive. So back then physical hazing was not only illegal, it was highly encouraged. So it was just an eye-opening experience. And I'm really surprised I made it because I was under-nourged. I weighed 120, 25 pounds. You know, I wasn't, you know, real savvy about people. And, you know, like I said, I got to fight in the first grade because me and people just didn't always get along that well. Wasn't a great team player. And, you know, I had one thing. I just refused to go home.

So whatever they threw my way, I took, you know, and that's how I joined the Army. And then, you know, you didn't have weekends off, you own private rooms. And, you know, back then you had 30 men open. bays and six crappers and six urinals and six showers and nothing but cold water and you know 17 degrees outside and ice on the porch that's where they you know asses and elbows come in they didn't have partitions in the bathrooms or anything so truly knees and elbows uh in 10 minutes to get in and out of everything so anyway we graduated i still had no direction and there were these two guys from west virginia Clark and harlis and they're saying so which one of you guys are going to

to be a tanker, which one of you guys are going to be an infantry guy, which one, you know, you know, they were asking about what they're going to be, right? So the, Clark leans over and goes, you know, if you go to jump school, you get an extra $55. And I'm like, what? Yeah, $55. And our base pay back then. It was paid in cash over by paymaster. It was $150 a month. Fifty five bucks, a lot of money. Yeah. Anybody want to go to jump school? Yep. So we're on. the bus, going to jump school. And so I got, you know, my brothers would just encourage me to get to Fort Bragg, and they said they would help me to get into special forces. Well, the lack of a high school

diploma kept me out of special forces then also. So I spent time in 82nd. Then I re-enlisted went to Germany. And while I was in Germany, I went back to school and I got my high school diploma at night. So, you know, it was the first step. And I just wasn't fighting wars. I wasn't doing the things I wanted to do. But I did meet Ronald McKenzie from Landover, Maryland. He was the most wicked Tai Chi Chihuahuan Wu Shui stylist I've ever met. And he appreciated what I brought to class and never charged me for a lesson. Oddly enough, I'm a grandmaster today. And I've never paid for a karate lesson in my entire life because of the intensity that I brought to the training and discipline, even though it lacked later in life. But he trained me a lot of nice stuff that

And back then I used to watch all the Bruce Lilly movies and learn every word, every move, and just, you know. And in 1975, I went to compete in the European internationals in Berlin. I'm sharing an image on the screen right now. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's his man went there. He was a different Dominican Republic of Japanese styles. Bad ass guy. And this is, and top doing this flying roundhouse kick here, looking like Chuck Norris, that

a young Jim West. That's me. Well, we used to train pretty hard. Notice there's no pads. They came out later. You know, back in the old days, it was all, in the old days, all bare knuckle, you know? And, you know, I used to do push-ups and ice and, you know,

all kinds of weird things. But, but, so I decided to get out of the Army, take a break in, like 75, 76. And I wanted to, I wanted to fight pro and do all those good things. So I went back to Richmond, Virginia. I was driving around, looking for a place to train. And I found this place that says American open style karate. And it was a little dump.

It wasn't like a big gym or anything or proper dojo. And I walk in there. These guys, they weren't wearing karate geese. They had on cut off shorts, teetops, and they were going to war. I mean, they were killing each other. And they said, a guy's like, Danny Wilson, my next trainer, he's like, would you like to train wills? Yeah, he said, put your stuff on.

So I'm stretching out. And they started ragging on me about being like Bill Wallace, Superfoot Wallace, because I could have good flexibility and great kicks. And they gloved me up, put me in there with this guy, and he's just beating the snot out of me, you know. And he knocked me down. I'm trying to get up, and he's still kicking the hit me. So I got so aggravated.

I came up swinging like a street fight. Danny's broken up, excuse me. And, but anyway, the guy that I was sparring with, there was his name is Keith Hayflick. He's deceased now. He died and he got shot to death in 1985 in a tragic event. But he was one of the meanest and most competent American open style karate guys that you'll ever meet anywhere, you know.

And I had no idea. I just walked him virtually off the street. And day one, And it was a wake-up, but, you know, I just had to have more. And so that was my introduction there. But so I was trying to fight. I got disqualified out of a couple of fights. And, you know, you wait two or three months to get a fight and you make $500.

I wasn't making a living. So I started working with Keith and I doing some security for some questionable activities. And one night I got bounced around by a bunch of Richmond's finest undercover in cops, you know, and I thought right then and there before this gets any deeper, I need to do something more important with my life. So I talked to my brothers. I went back in the Army once again sort of repeats itself, get to Fort Bragg. We'll get you in special forces.

So I just volunteer for Como. They're sent with Commo school back to the 82nd Airborne. This is my second trip to the 82nd. First time was infantry. Second time was a Camo guy. and I got picked up for selection and I had a high school diploma so that's pretty cool

and you know the rest is history right so Jim at Dave oh sorry Jim at this point you know you had done some training you're training Tai Chi and Lu Shu which are you know Chinese styles and you know and then the you say American American

Karate? American Open Style karate is basically the foundation for kickboxing. And that was in 75, you say? 76, 7, 75, 76. So entered the dragon and come out. Bruce Lee was known. Chuck Morris was kind of known.

Well, I mean, Bob Arnault, these people, did you know of these people, were you trying to emulate them? Were you seeking out that kind of instruction? Or were you just taking the- Around you? I wanted all I could get. You know, I had what I had,

and it was so localized, but I stayed in touch with my original instructor, and he had moved to California. you try to get into Hollywood, you know, working out with a guy named Douglas Wong, who's an amazing guy. He's still alive today. And so in 76, I flew out there and I fought in the Los Angeles International Championship. I had Parker stuff. And, you know, to meet all those guys. I met a lot of those guys. Plus, I met a lot of them in the Berlin European Championships. Bill Wallace was there. Heidi O. Chai. I mean, I got tips and trades and trained amazing human

of beings. I did get disqualified in my first flight in the, in the, uh, in the, uh, in the internet in the Los Angeles international is out there. But, uh, that's where you can kick to the body and punch the body, but not to the face. And a guy, this guy who was sharp, he jumps up, bow, front kicks me in the gut and I leaned forward, cracked him in the chin and dropped him and said, oh, you're out of here, you know. I said, man, I just bought all this, spent all this money to come here and get a second chance. Now you got to follow the rules. Oh, yeah. I wasn't good at that. Well, yeah, I was trying to emulate them, imitate them, every move, every, I studied everything I could about fighting every, every body motion. So, Jim, while you were, you were in special forces, you'd made it through that whole crucible.

And I mean, back in those days, it really was a crucible. I mean, Fort McCall was not what it is today. Now it's like a, now it's like a four-star resort out there. But back of those days, I mean, you guys have. like World War II huts, World War II tents, and that was about it, right? I was wondering if you could tell the story about the G.B. Club, and I think it's very interesting on two levels. That's a story that's related in your book, and there's some lessons to be learned about street brawl in there. But it also, the epilogue to that story is kind of how you came up on the CIA's

radar and got yourself recruited for submissions down to Central America. Well, that's my lack of political correctness. It drives me through life. because, you know, if you don't ask, you don't know. And you can't be afraid of living or at least trying. But we had gone to the Greenberry Sport Parachute Club, the G.B. Club when it was over there by Wormack Army Hospital. And it was another World War II building, you know, had a flight of steps going up front. It was in December 28th, actually, 83.

And there was a little. ice and dew outside on the grass. That's kind of interesting. And I was sitting around guys, and one of the guys was getting ready to, he had been accepted into the Intel part of Delta, but he's also an E7 on the EA list to be promoted. And I was there with my first father,

Moses Flores, he's an amazing individual as well. He's still alive today. He's lost his memory and all that, but he's almost 100 years old. Wow. He's an amazing guy. you know, but, uh, um, so we were sitting there, there's about eight or nine of us just in a,

you know, all the chairs kind of circled and drinking and telling war stories. And, uh, this one guy, Dennis, uh, I'll leave his last name out, but his wife decided to go to the bar and get us, um, around the beer, ask everybody what they wanted. She walks up to the bar and they're kind of over my shoulder, you know, I wasn't facing the direction. And there are a couple of guys at the bar. I didn't know who they were. And, uh, about, five or ten minutes go by and Dennis goes. Being a parent can be really challenging. It's normal to feel uncertain about whether you're doing the right things to raise healthy and happy children.

That's why Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five with free support services to help them build confidence in their parenting journey. Everyone deserves to have someone they can turn to for support with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. What's taking her so long with those beers? Let me go check on her. And she's standing there, the beers are on the end of the bar, and she's conversing with some guy. And so Dennis walks over there,

and I don't know what exactly was said. They turn face to face. You can't look back, you know, and this guy whips out a big eight-inch blade and stabs Dennis right through the stomach. And it's amazing because here I am in a room full of green berets. combat soldiers, you know? And it was like Moses part in the sea.

Nobody did anything. But instantaneously, I had no plan. I'm one of those guys that will run into the fire. I just jumped up and I had a upstairs. Actually, I have the same jacket today. It just doesn't fit the same. I have a brown leather jacket. I know that when there's knives, we used to practice, you know,

wrapping your wrists. And I've got all these wrap my wrist to this. I have to protect myself. I grabbed my jacket. I ran over there. His back was partially to me. He's like at an angle. And at this point, when I get there, he stabs Dennis the second time. And he actually ends up hitting two arteries. And I put my hand on his shoulder to get him away from it.

And as I turned him around with no plan, instead of trying to wrap my wrists and all that, I just took my jacket and threw it up on top of his head. Because I think my instincts were working more than my thinking, because I believe that if you're thinking to fight, you're never going to win a fight. It has to be intuitive, at best, instinctive. Instinct is something that comes natural, you know,

or through upbringing. But anyway, I threw that jacket on his head, turns around instead of trying to stab me, he's trying to get the jacket off of his head. So I rolled his ankle, grabbed him, rushing arm, barred him, put him on the ground. I started, you know, putting pressure on his arm, he was face down.

Moses kicks a knife out of his hand. those up on a pool table. Boom, done. Start getting up. And we're walking back over to ground. He's got a knife. He's got a knife. And I'm thinking, we got the night. I looked at the pool table and the knife is still on the pool table. Look back and this jackass had a second knife. And he's going at it again. So I do a lot of what you call pushing and punching as push. Like I'll push and hit because I got one direction. You know, it's generally straight ahead. and if I'm not in range, at least for a good strong over, or if I'm scared because he had that knife, I just, I push him out of range, bang, hit him, back to him into the wall and I kept hitting him.

And he wouldn't go down. I actually hit him so hard that his head went into the, had that wood panel. It actually cracked the wood panel. Boom. Kind of caught him with a sweep. Took another arm bar, got him down. He was in a little worse shape this time. so I thought we're good. And all of a sudden, he got gets up and he's got a third knife.

Oh, my God. So I had a cowboy boots, but just kicked him right out the front door, right down the steps, onto the sidewalk, and did my best PLF effort, jumped off the stairs, landed on him, and started doing a tap dance. I mean, I literally crushed his head, broke all of his ribs, twisting, turning. And the guy was hooked up to a kidney machine for a couple of weeks. That's how bad I beat him. but I even took him at one point. When I looked at the corner, I seen the lights like ambulance or cop and like, oh my God,

I don't want to get arrested at the corner and I'm going, Christ. So I literally spread his legs up face down and kicked him into growing twice just to see how far I could slide him across that nice, icy grass. Then I ran back inside and one of these guys was allegedly a medic. They had Dennis sitting in a chair. I couldn't tell what they were doing.

As a sweet, not. Yeah. And I ran up behind. him, kick the legs out of the chair, put my underhooks under Dennis's arms, and laid him on the floor. I said, you elevate his feet, treat him for shock, stop the bleeding, I'm out of here. And Dennis will tell you today, I mean, we have actually reconnected recently. And he's a very thankful guy. He's a good guy. You know, bad things happen to good people all the time, right? but if it weren't for me, he would absolutely just be dead, you know.

So I spent a couple of weeks in jail because he didn't want to have an alcohol-related incident and screw up his promotion and opportunities to go to Delta. So once he got promoted and accepted, he told his side of the story to the cops. They released me. But when I went, you know, pending further investigation. So they sent me back to the unit. And the first thing of Sergeant Major tells me is you're non-deployable. well before yeah do what we do right and uh okay so they put me on uh you know the guard duty you know

like uh oh deal whatever it is over at the battalion hit got staff duty yes you pull the doors and you go on and you sit all night and you walk around and do the little security checks and fill out the log i'm sitting there waiting on uh sergeant major commanders back in the office i'm like god these guys got to go so i go to sleep man And they just wouldn't leave. All of a sudden, there's some knocking on the door, and I go answer the door. And these suits right the door. Here's C-Sarge Major and come out of the way.

So I walk them back and introduce me, told me to close the door and get out of there. So I sat down and once again, my spider senses were tingling. They had typewriters. So I typed up a real quick resume. I speak languages. I'm a combat bed. I do this, you know, whatever. I have two or three MOSs.

And I take it back there. and I knocked on the door and I just handed it to one of the guys in the suits. And Sergeant Major just get the F out of my office. I'll deal with you later. Okay. So I'm sitting there. And then an hour later, so they all go traips and out. I'll lock the door.

Sergeant Major gives me this very ugly look. And then where they leave. Monday morning, we're sitting in formation. They called me out of formation. Oh, before Monday morning, what happened was after they left about an hour later, there's another knock on the door. And I opened the door and the suits came back without the commanders and the sergeant majors. And they said, look, we've got some top secret missions coming up.

Can't tell you anything about them. But you're going to get some orders and you're going to go to Tyson's Corner. And they even told me, when they're going to put you in a hotel, don't do anything stupid because they've got microphones in the TV channel changers and all that stuff. So they're going to be watching every move, filming you, listening to. So you just go up there, mind your own business. But, yeah, you have to go through some training and, you know, some verification. But we want you, you know, we like your attitude.

I said, wow, okay. And they start to leave. And the guy turned around. He says, Mr. West. I said, yes, sir, he goes, do me a favor when you get up the corner. I said, what's that? He goes, don't bullshit those guys like you just did us. So I ended up getting a.

What year was this, Jim? Well, 83. That might have probably been 84 because or right nor the end of 83 because, you know, the fight was on December 28th, 1983. So I'd say it's the beginning of 84, like the second, third week of January. And you said in your, you wrote in your resume, your combat experience. What had your combat experience been at this point? at that point

I didn't really have any real combat experience I was running some patrol but that had never been in a firefight so I kind of and they knew I bullshit them you know and that's why I said

we don't yeah don't bullshit us them just like you did us yeah but they love my attitude it's good and Tyson's corner is Spook Central down in Washington DC and that's where they went down

and do you have to take a polygraph and an interview and all that yeah you got yeah you have take a polygraph, you know, they establish a base line, go through the polygraph, then you've got to go down through the range. You've got to re-qualify shooting and all that good stuff. And then you've got to go through, uh, meet with the other contractors. And then they send you through some training because we were actually originally sent down to train, um, hostage rescue and counterinsurgency commandos and stuff. So that with the hostage rescue and also, uh,

This was down in Honduras? Yeah. That's where it was. And yeah, they have these COI, Commandos Oparaciosia, specialis. They're very well trained. You've read some of my articles. I often say that, you know,

politically speaking, the people that come here undocumented illegally, like MS-13 and such, I always tell you, there's some very bad boys, because a lot of those guys due to conscripts and stuff, they're

pulled it off the street, train, giving some military train that we typically are the trainers. And I can tell you, these guys are very, very well-schooled and they don't think like the typical American. They're not worried about hurting you or killing you, you know? So that's all about the month.

But, yeah. Well, it's interesting because in the beginning of your book, you talk about coming from poverty, and that and that like the challenges that you had in high school and with like the desegregation was less about race for for the for everybody involved and more about everybody was poor everybody was angry it was like the seething boiling anger so everybody fought for every scrap they had and you either fought people who were different than you or you fought people who were the exact same issue right so when you talk about these forces is in Honduras and you say that they just don't care. I mean, they're coming from poverty too. Oh, very, very, very.

So violence, unlike people who grew up in a middle class world where, you know, you invite each other out to the football field or the parking lot after class for, you know, for a fight that everybody's watching, right? This well-planned kind of thing. Yeah. When you come from any culture that tends to be impoverished, violence becomes a way of life. And the things that you're willing to do are capable of doing because of that are just much different than somebody who comes from a more privileged background. I was training a guy for the UFC back when Stevie Graham,

I mean, you've seen him before. He's a, at the time, he benched, pressed 600 pounds. He worked squat, refs was 740, played football for Fayetteville State, just a monster athlete, you know. And when I was getting ready for the UFC, I had trouble finding some stand-up fighters for him, you know, because he's just a beast. And he said, do you know anybody you can bring in? He brought in some of his buddies.

And his buddy goes off on him. I mean, they were like two animals. I'm like, holy crap. So when we finished training, I asked his partner, I said, so you got a little boxing experience, right? And he goes, no. I said, well, you did a pretty damn good job for not having any experiences. He said, do, let me tell you something. I'm poor. He said, poor people are angry. You know, and I think that kind of sums it up a little bit, you know. Yeah. Poor people are angry. Maybe that's a T-shirt, right?

And it's fair, you know, I mean, you talk about it in the beginning of your book. people who are scrapping every day, they have less food, less this, less that, they have a low seething anger that's always present that somebody who has,

you know, money in the bank does not deal with. So they already have sort of a fighting mentality. Yeah, and honestly, that'll come out in a real fight. You know, in my book,

you always hear me use term real fight. I replace a street fighting fight, but, you know, a person that's not conditioned either by, life circumstances or proper training somewhere, no matter how skillful they may be, once the water gets deep, you know, I don't think a lot of them have what it takes to survive.

You know, and that's one of the things where I'm at today, psychologically, is, you know, it's not about fighting as much as is the mental preparation for survival, you know, and how do you get there? You know, obviously there's a lot of stuff you've got to learn along the way, but it's getting that mind adjusted, right, as fast as you can. So not to derail too much from the CI story, but we're kind of on this. And you know, you cover the mentality a lot in your book. Like you stress how important that is.

How and that because you talk about this linear development of technical ability, mentality and psychological. It's psychological. And, you know, you say they're the linear and they're asymmetrical. They're not always growing at the same rate. So somebody can go in and train BJJ or train Moy Thai or train all these. different things, but still not have that psychological edge where somebody who does have that psychological edge may have no training whatsoever and just sort of, you know, destroy. How does

somebody develop that that is not in, you know, that didn't grow up that way or is not in life-threatening situations? I have a series of different drills. And basically there, I would say reactionary drills. do what you call inside out training. Most of that linear training is kind of a lean principle. They push you through the training. So you know the goal is to be a black belt or whatever your goal is. You've got to go through these steps and goals with the hopes and idea that you're going to develop the self-confidence that goes with it.

Then you go out in the street and get your ass worked. You know, I tend to look at it like a, like in a construction. industry. If you suddenly hit the lottery tomorrow and you want to build this very elaborate home, you get an artist rendition. So everybody gets to see that rendition before they, before they start building. So as you get closer to the end, you know, I forgot there's a curve here, a tree there, a plant, you got to see that in the end of it first. So I introduce people immediately to the what it's supposed to look like and feel like. Now,

that's not to scare people, but there are ways to get there without getting punched in the face all day. And then, you know, it's so many layers that we, it's weeks to discuss. But the layers, when you pull back out,

you can start working on the microchanges right away. Because if you try to make big macro changes overnight, it's like me telling you that, I want you to paint your whole house, on the inside green tomorrow. You're like, hell no. But if we start little paint spots here and there, next thing you know, you're just going to be engrossed

and digging the new paint job, you know, so. So you're gaslighting them, but for good. For good. Yeah. I think, you know, Jim, you're obviously a terrific fighter, and anyone who's ever fought with you knows that one way or the other. But I think really your real strength, even beyond being a good fighter is in being an instructor.

Yeah. And I think that's really where, where, I mean, really, your skill comes to the forefront, that there's something you can do very special that I've never really seen, seen or found in other people. It's my true passion. You know, I've always dreamed of just finding that right person, you know, and you're never going to find, you know, to become a world champion, a boxer, kickboxer, whatever, you know, mixed martial artists. And that's something else, too, all these guys that I took off the street, all but one, never had a fight. And within a year and a half, they're fighting world champions on TV, pay-per-view, UFC, right? Hell, they all comes talking.

He had a lot of experience, but it was an eye-opener for him, too, when he walked into my school, you know. Because it's extraordinary, you know, we do what everybody else does to a point, but we make it, we keep it real, you know, and keep it raw. and try to break it down in a way, you know, all this one, two, three steps for all, lift his hand here, do that there, step. It's just a lot of stuff you've got to remember. Like I was trying to get Justin just a week ago to increase the power on this leg kick. So I said, look, Justin, act like you're throwing two punches, but don't throw the second punch. Just roll that shoulder and just turn the, you know, pelvis upside down, just let your leg

shoot completely through. Don't worry about your balance. Just bang. and boy, he liked to cripple Roger. So, you know, it's just, it's being able to convey visually and physically your message, you know, into people. And you can't do that if you can't look at them and analyze, you know, and give that feedback. Speaking of which, Jim, tell us how you went about training the Honduran Special Forces, because you had some pretty unique techniques in how you went about that as well.

well, it kind of cheats because they weren't allowed to quit. You know, every day we get up and we do some sort of PT. Sometimes in the middle of the night, we just get up. I'll tell everybody to put on their full gear, get their weapon, get the, you know, rucks every. And we'd go run or ruck 12 miles, 15 miles and still get up at 5 in the morning. So you barely have time. So we run on empty all the time, you know, and, uh, Some of the things that I did, we used to do what you call 10 second drills.

Well, you know, the combatives, you sit two people down with it back, back to back, blow a whistle. So when they stand up, they just turn and start hitting each other, you know. Doesn't have to be perfect or anything. But so you hit the whistle, and if they turn and face each other, they're already throwing. But if either one of them takes a step back, you hit the whistle again, they stop, you start them over. So you can't step back.

You just come up firing, you know, because. when you're in a door kicking situation or, you know, an urban environment, you run around a corner and bump into somebody, you only have time to do one thing. And that's, it's like an eye drill, you attack, attack, attack, right? So like, like David was saying earlier, people try to think and process the way right out of a fight. But, uh, so we do 10 second drills, you know, which are our, our master drills and getting people to become very positive what they do.

We, we were mouthpiece, hair, gear, and stuff, you know, just to get them going the right way. And like I said, they weren't knockout artists at the time. I found out that part of my crew wasn't doing the right thing. We're working, you know, like three months on, three months off of rotating with another group. And I couldn't get the snipers on paper. So we're going round for round, bala seabala, you know, just I'm standing behind them and pulling the spotters off, you know, everything I could. They couldn't put three bullets in the same hole for anything.

And I found out the sniper instructor for the group before me, the guy that started them, they were betting on their shot group, not a group, but shot per shot. So the spotter was just changing every shot instead of getting a group together. So they were a mess. They're all over the place. And it's like they wouldn't listen. So I said, okay, guys, spotters come off the scopes and walk with me, took a bull one. We go down 300 meters and sat them in front of the silhouettes.

And then I got on the bull when I told the guys to lock and load, you know, and he'll start fine. They got on paper right after that. So it was nice, you know. So for people who aren't familiar with sort of some military slang and terminology, getting on paper just means hitting the target. And snipers are trying to shoot a group. And they were chasing each round is what you're saying. Yeah. So the thing is, is it, yeah.

So when you're shooting, you're shooting at the same point every time. But if you start trying to, trying to group, then you're aiming at your last shot. And if you're off, it's going to be even more off. So instead of aiming center of the target to see where your rounds are actually hitting. So sorry, I just wanted to make that that little. So a group is you want to put three rounds as close as possible. Then you move the whole group, not each round individually, right? And, you know, then we get down to like final test day, you know, we put them under so much stress, all their gear.

You know, they've got to jump in the water. I've got to come up. They've got to do 50 pushups. They've got a shotgun for breach, and they've got to 9 millimeters, you know, and they go running down. They've got to sit up outside the door. They've got a breach door to shock and they've got a run in button hook behind there. We've got windows. And we're screaming at them with bullhorns and shooting the back of the legs of BB guns.

and the day before, in the day before, because this is a nighttime run, we're doing what they call knockdown drills. We had them come in at Highport. You know, we change that all the time. And when they walk through the door, they don't know what to expect. And when they come through, I just catch right in the body arm with a baseball bat or, and hit this one guy. I'll tell you how well trained they are.

You heard me say before these guys are trained. I took, I took this one cat right off his feet. and as he was going down, he came from the leather, and he, you know, shooting discriminating targets at nighttime. He, he clipped every target, all the good ones, missed all the bad ones, went out the back door, reholstered his weapon and passed out. So what was, like your training methodology was forming at this time, right? You'd been a lot of bar fights, so last three fights.

You'd been training hand to hand, and now, and not that you hadn't been doing it before this point in time, but how was like okay there's a difference between when I'm you know fighting in a ring fighting a guy on the street like the parameters difference and now I've got a guy who's kidded out has a weapon how do you like how did that influence your training style or you know what changed or what did you learn from that frankly not a lot change because first of all with all that gear we will go like I say 10 12 15 mile runs with everything and we'd follow up at hand to hand.

We just never stop. When you're all kidded up and stuff, you know, maybe on certain entry points and stuff, it may not become an issue. I was more worried we're covering the sides for knife attacks and stuff because there are gaps and everything. And, you know, frankly, back in those days,

we train both ways because a lot of people consider those best trauma pads, you know, like some, there are enough people, people that would rather have a bullet, just run right through them and break all your bones. So, you know, because when you're shooting seven, six, two and up, it's, uh, it's, it's just, and now what is shooting 50 cowl and it's crazy, you know, so, you know, the, the only thing about wearing the gears is the heat, the temperature, you know, so you got to make sure to control your breath control, you know, everything's about relaxation, you know, and just

thinking your way, not thinking your way through, seeing your way through. When you get uptight about anything and you shorten your breath, you know, rescue, breathing, panic, breathing, whatever, you're done anyway, you know, you do have to clean a lot because just like a ruck side, you know, day after day after day, if you're not taking showers and you get that like a prickly heat or something. Yeah. And that never goes away. Once your thermostat's broke, it's broke for life, you know, so there's a lot of care and putting things on, taking them off. And we actually trained and we would hang the, we would hang the vest, you know, bulletproof vest on three quarter inch soft steel and just,

you know, and actually shoot them with all kinds of different weapons. So they knew what they were getting into. It is difficult to get a, you know, like a lot of judo moves and stuff. And grappling moves like cross mountain, all that is. I think that the military today has, has its baseline is probably 80% BJJ or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. And I think that's a great base, but I think they need to flip it to about 80% stand-up.

Because just like the UFC, when it first came out, it was all ground fighting, you know, ground to pound wrestlers. You watch the guys today, the best fighters in the world, they don't, at times, they don't even go to the ground. So, you know, realistically, you don't want to be laying there and you're going to be grossly affected when you're moving and trying to grapple with all your gear. on because fingers get caught in things, they break trying to transition.

You know, it's just, um, so for me, it's a lot of angulation, you know, making sure that, like if you can't twist turn completely because the gear is restricting you, then you have to manipulate your angles by, by manipulating your distance, which means you've got to protect different areas certain ways. So, you know, you just learn, it's like learning how to punch with a broken arm or, or, you know, some sort of an injury. You can always make the adjustment to maximize your power. I mean, a street fight itself, how many people are really on balance in a right position

when that fights are? So you've got to learn how to fight off balance too. So the training is individualized, even when I'm training, guys that are all kidded up because they have to learn how to maximize their power and balance and shift their weight and be able to get the rotation in appropriately. Does that mean it's going to be perfect in terms of? of how I'm going to fight you if I'm stripped down. That's totally going to be different.

But you can deliver equal power or more. So actually, we shorten everything up quite a bit. And that's something I'd love to see you work on in the future, Jim, is like modern day, you know, like this sort of OSS style fighting. I mean, I don't know if there is, there's, yeah, there is a Fort Bragg. They have, of course, I can't remember the name of it, where you go into the room and you're fighting in full kit. I'd like to see you develop something.

like that, like how do you fight and utilize or how does all that web gear you're wearing and plate carriers and helmets? How does that all impact the fight for a modern soldier? Yeah, well, oddly enough, I do a lot of thinking about it recently, you know, and it's good to have products like books and this bad boy here. This is a game changer, guys. Think about a guy that has one position here and he's right-handed, right? So that, he goes around a corner and loses his weapon, he ends up with this. And this is a game changer, flat out. You know, once anybody puts one in their hands and actually gets trained, you know, not exactly what I'm talking about. So are those available yet, Jim?

I have 50 of them sitting right here, but I, I determined after playing with it a bit, that I'm not quite ready to sell them yet. I'm working on a tip. I'm working on a tip cover, you know, like the international orange and a different holstring that I've got a couple of mock-ups. So I would, I would probably sell one without a holster, but I'd have to send a waiver and know who I'm selling to. Jim, what do you call that? Do you have the box for it and everything? Because people are kind of curious. It's called the badger. So it's a little bit, I mean, it's like a modified crambit in a way. It's totally different. And by the way, and by the way it's fully patented. Mine right here. Yeah. This is fully patented because this little angle right here

has about 26 little angles that give it the ability to do this without cutting yourself. And if you have a reverse grip, it's got a punch tip on it too. Yes, it does. It does this without cutting you. And that blade, that one and a half inch blade is razor sharp. It was designed for people that get mugged unexpectedly taken off guard and they can do this without cutting themselves. You can work from this position and rip and tear like a badger. Well, and I think that's one of the things that people, you know, I mean, Cramids really kind of came into popularity when people realize that, you know, if I get jammed up, it's not easy to pull a straight blade. knife or to use a straight blade knife to stab to do whatever and so I have Jack you I'll show your cram it again real quick so this is the modern day kind that you know it has a

locking blade and hold it in your hand and so it's just going to be a real close in when somebody's grabbing you just twists and you know that's one of the things I think that when you talk about the modern military focus on BJ BJJ a Brazilian jitistri for those a few you don't know, which is an exceptionally effective style. But when you're going through a door and somebody, you know, you turn a corner and somebody grabs your weapon, you know, it's not really at that point of timing when you want to go to the ground. You want to, you know, so many guys get target fixated and start fighting for their weapon

when if they just released it because it was slung and went to their secondary, their tertiary, were those things that you experimented with when you were with the Hondurans? I mean, like, because bringing in a long gun, bringing in pistols, bringing things like that, do you feel that they change the nature of what you were teaching or just more adaptive skills? I think more adaptive skills. I mean, for long guns, you know, you use a car 15 instead of an M16 because of the short barrel. If you go back historically, you know, in Vietnam, a lot of guys use a car 15 because that jungle was, you know, eating things up.

When you're going through doors, the short of the barrel, the better you are. so the car 15 serves a much greater function, and so do the MACDens and Oozys. So, you know, you're just, everything's shorter, you know, and pistols of pistols. And even, but the shotgun, you know, we used was pretty long, you know, typically the Remington 870 with the extender on it,

but shotguns are used for different purposing, you know, so, yeah, it's just adaptive skills. Jim, I had some other questions I wanted to ask you about the deployments down to Central America. And one of, one of them, you know, I'll let you, you know, phrase this how you will. You worked with a guy fairly notorious, you know, indige names Lieutenant Hernandez, who's mentioned in Human Rights Watch reports for, you know, allegedly being involved in some pretty horrendous human rights abuses back in the 1980s.

Now, there's all kinds of interesting things to get into here because nowadays, because of what happened in Central America, the Leahy Amendment came about, and we have to vet the groups we work with, sometimes at the unit level, sometimes all the way down to the individual to ensure we're not training war criminals in some manner.

But at that point, I'm not sure that the Leahy amendment was even around or if the CIA would even have been beholden to it. But I mean, what was your experience like with this guy? So let me preface that by saying, Jack's really good at what he does. I said, well, I was on his operation. I gave him the name.

I don't know. Like, I meet with him a week later and he's got 851 page document on it. I'm like, holy shit, Christ. Where do you come up with this stuff, you know? And so Jack really does his homework. And the only thing I would say about the conduct of business in general is when you're inactive, this is my opinion. And working for the CIA, you're really.

not in the CIA and the CIA is utilizing you as an asset and they're really not working either. So I don't think any kind of amendment would really apply necessarily. Just thinking. But yeah, this guy, he seemed to be like a party kind of guy, you know, but he would always disappear and he grabbed some of his, he had a little core group of guys. He'd just say, Tiantan Hernandez, he's not going to be here today. He's got, and he'd come back, you know, and all disheveled and drunk sometimes. And then we had an operation that we were going to do and, hey, we need him.

We need him, you know, these guys are scared to operate without him. So one of the guys, you know, we had to put on a little stress on him. They knew where he was. So we go to this nice humble abode and ring the bell. And he had his vehicle out front. We knew he was there. And he comes to the door and he creeps the door open and he's sweating like he stole. something his hands and chest has blood splattered all over it and stuff.

And I'm like, I'll be right out. And I'm thinking, this is a bad guy. I don't know what kind of soup he was making. But clearly he's not afraid of abusive activity, right? And then, you know, it was speaking to some of the guys, it's rumored that he's done some really horrendous, interrogation techniques and tactics of which not anyone lived. When he's done, he's done.

So, yeah, he has that reputation, you know. And, you know, you hear about a lot of it because you're close to it, you know what I mean. So it's, I mean, this is an interesting thing to just speak about for a moment was that you were an active duty special forces warrant officer seconded to the CIA. I've used that term sheep dipped, which is like old 1950s lingo.

Nowadays, there's a more formal process. It's called the defense sensitive support system or D-Trippel-S, which is much more formal or one agency requests the help of another or vice versa. But I mean, back in those days, it was interesting because you were one of those guys. And what it enabled was, what, it would have been President Reagan, right? He could go on television and say, no boots on the ground. Yeah, absolutely. I thought it was more about truth in reporting, you know, because if

the president's up there and they said, do you have to see how I working here? And you go, no. Or do you have special forces there? It goes, right, right. Technically, he's not lying. Right. Right, right. I experienced that as a reporter with a National Guard all the freaking time where I go to the National Guard and they're like, oh, yeah, those guys in Somalia, they were under federal auspices so we can't comment on that. I go to the, I go to the Pentagon. I say, hey, the Pentagon, these guys you have in Somalia, hey, those are National Guard guys. Can't comment on that. And they're both like doing this number to me. I'm like, what the hell? Yeah. You tell me you graduated from Columbia. I did go to school. I'm not a complete moron here. I think you guys

are giving me the runaround. Yeah, they're good at it. But the pay is good. But that wasn't your only trip down there either. Like there was one where you were working with maritime branch or something like that. Well, actually, wow. So anything we discuss is open. It's out there in the news, you know, just what's not out there is all. Yeah, all the players. But so I was down there doing our day-to-day function.

And our station chief leader comes up and he's like, Hey, Jim, we're going to send you up to work with our maritime organization in Puerto Cortez. I'm like, well, when I finished here, Jim, we're sending you up to the maritime organization. I'm like tapping his foot, like, I'm like, all right, whatever. You know, I knew that something didn't smell right, if you know what I mean. So I go up there and had a wonderful time working, most of those guys are all former Navy SEALs. and stuff. And, you know, I was the only combat diver on our team. So it was, I figured, well,

okay, it makes sense. And that's what he told me, cover story, you know, you're the only combat diver. We need you up there. And, you know, so anyway, everything's said and done. We go home. And I got a call one morning from my house back at Fort Bragg and Jim, Jim, turn on the news, turn on the news. Well, turn on the news. And for those of you ever heard that story, you know, and Jack, you can say more about it, but those guns for contras and all that stuff, you know, well, they're members of my team and they were being hauled out of their homes and the handcuffs. I'm like, wow, they were doing it right under my name. The Iran Project, yeah.

The Iran Project, yes. They were good because I didn't have a clue. But in this case, those guys, they were seventh group guys. And I know because after you told me, I looked on in the Fayetteville Observer, there's a story about the FBI kicking down their front door, but they were doing it completely illegal, like on their own, smuggling guns, running guns down there. Yeah. But they were taking, like from our inventory for the COI and all that stuff, the commandos, they were changing, you know, parts, bits and pieces and shipping them out, you know, whatever they were doing. But yeah. So much for honor, right?

Yeah. We have some questions. I want to get you real quick before we keep on on. First off, Hammer Nails. Thank you very much for your donation. We really appreciate it. David Mayer, thank you very much. What is the best story about how someone got a nickname? Oh, maybe how Jim got his nickname. That's a good one. That's funny. Smokey, right? So everybody knows me by Smokey because my brothers and cousins were group guys before I was. And that's how I was introduced. And, but the day I was born, the house that my family was living in caught on fire. My mom went into labor while she was trying to save the clothes and pull things out.

She was covered in black smut and all that. They got to the hospital. I was delivered. And she didn't name me right away. It took about three days to give me a real name. So the nurses started calling me smoky. So I've lived with that for my entire life. Are you saying that fire and brimstone preceded your birth?

Well, Jack knows a lot about that, yeah. Yeah, it preceded my birth. My mother used to say the devil chased me into the world, and he will chase me out. So time will tell. I have had a visit with the devil before. Yeah, I was pronounced dead. You taught in your other book, what's the name of it again? Messages from beyond.

Yeah, and you talk about that near-death experience you had. Yeah, this guy. And you were in a coma for how long? Two days. I was, which I didn't even know because you're not supposed to know, I guess, until I was going to the VA and I was going through my records. I go, I started reading my own records. And I'm like, what the heck?

Because I don't remember this. And the administration is like, you wouldn't remember that. Yeah, no shit. I mean, it's like a blank in your life that you just never get to reexperience, you know, except for that part where I, this dark veil took over me and I was in a place. It wasn't bright lights and nice things, you know, I think my life was, I've definitely received a message there, you know? Yeah, I think it's important to, I mean, not from a moral standpoint for just from a person

development to kind of point out that, like, when you talk about, like, when you talk about talk about these bar fights and you talk about these events in your life prior, you were like a very angry person at that point in time. Like they, you're not, I don't, you're not implying that your behavior or who you were at that time as somebody that people should emulate. It's just, it's just a combination of your, it's, it's your life experience as it forms who you are now. Yeah. No, the, The book itself actually sets a foundation for this book, right? Because if I'm going to be a stage, a teacher, mentor, coach to give you and pass on all this experience and knowledge that I have in hopes that you become a better person,

a better team player, a better soldier, you know, just, just. And when they read the book and they go, Well, this guy's drunk and fighting all the time. Why don't want to learn from a drunk? Right. You're right. You know, 30, 40 years ago, 25 years ago, I was angry all the time. And it's not like I had something to prove.

I just liked to fight. And like when I was a kid, when I fought, I wanted to hurt somebody. It's not like I never got hurt because I've been stitched up. I've had over 200 stitches. I've had nerve damage, you know, or had septals. Yeah, just, it's not without paying your dues along. the way. You know, like I said, when I say I'm lucky to be here and I feel blessed, you know, I've been stabbed in the back, beat on the head with beer bottles full of beer,

just, uh, and I want all those fights. And I tell you, it's just pure anger and, and some technical expertise to go with it, knowing how to breathe, you know, how to ride a punch, tuck your chin, you know, just the ways you can protect yourself under the worst of conditions. And that's another thing that, uh, you know, hopefully my training will get you to that point one day, you know, that even when it's unexpected and uncalled for and what you think is terrible, it really may not be that terrible. You always have an opportunity to walk away, you know, so. It's funny because, you know, you talk about your anger, kind of getting you through a lot of those fights. And I think it, I think it was Carl Sustari, who once said that when you hit,

you have to hit with hate, you know, that it's that sort of kind of anger that drives you through. Real quick, Alex, thank you very much. And he says, my question is a bit long, please see below. Most police are required to requalify yearly on firearms that are never required to call on defense tactics hand-to-hand and PT or physical training. Only once in a career for the exception of swap teams. As an expert in martial arts, how would you restructure police hand-to-hand and Petrie training and standards?

Well, you know, based on the current situation, both the one that happened here in New York a few years ago and this one in Minnesota, that was a horrible, horrible event, you know, to sit there and just watch a guy die. You know, anyone, I mean, entire America saw this thing. I don't think it justifies burning and loot in the town, but certainly protests would be appropriate, right? I think this individual should have been arrested immediately. I have to get that out. But, you know, because when you watch that, this, he's just,

he just is guilty. There's nothing more to be said about that. But, you know, the facts are with the cops and the law enforcement agents, they have ability to train, but it's on their own, right? They always provide the platform. I think not even annual requals. I think any time a significant event came up, you know, like I'm in the construction industry. And if a guy falls off a ladder, we pull everybody around. I mean, it could be a thousand people. It could be 30, depending on how many is on your job. And we talk about the do's and don'ts and let's make sure we don't repeat the same thing. And that's what training, good training is all about. You know, it's not looking back, it's moving forward. And, you know, like this event, every single police law enforcement officer in the country, federally, state, local, should be stood down in groups, never taken off guard, you know,

because they're the guardians of our safety. And they should retrain on the specific of this incident. Like there are ways you can hold that guy in that position, you know, without killing him and without even injuring him. And then the protocols, they should be re-evaluated. I would say once a quarter, you know, with some questions, a survey. you know, and if you don't pass 75% of minimum, maybe, then you should be suspended from duty until you can get the appropriate answers, you know. I mean, they should be held to a monster standard, you know.

I mean, one of the things that aggravates a mess out of me, you know, working in and out of New York City all the time, you guys are aware, you know, and you both have extreme tactical backgrounds, you know, when you walk into, you know, one world trade, the Oculus, one pin, there's all kinds of police protection. you know, get it up, guns, all, everything. And they're standing in groups, you know, one grenade will get them all. You know, I think, I think that they should have a roving evaluators that come through and say, you know, just hand them a ticket and say, before you come back out, we got to retrain you, you know, because you're not filing protocol. I mean, when you're putting a gun in a man's hand, he's got to have his stuff together, and he's got to be disciplined.

Yeah, we do a lot of work in this country. to further professionalize the police force, I think. There's certainly a lot more interest for sure. I mean, I'm supposed to, I think September 19, go down to Titusville, Florida, to the policeman's museum down there. And anywhere from 100 to 600 law enforcement officers, you know, they're always available for training. They'll come in.

And, you know, obviously we will respect the physical distance, social separation and all the whatever. whatever is enhanced safety standards are and still accomplish our mission. But, you know, so I think that's a great opportunity. And I know that a lot of really, really solid police officers that train, train, train. Unfortunately, they, you know, I don't know how much of that tab is being picked up by the by the departments.

Well, and that's the thing is that, I mean, most of the time it's a budget issue. And anybody, any police officer who is good at shooting, you know, accurate, good hand-to-hand as some sort or whatever. It's because they've taken their own time and their own money after their job, after long shifts, to go out and do that on their own. And also it's a time and a scheduling issue

because if you take them and send them out to a shooting range once a week to practice, that guy's not on the street. You don't have anyone to go patrol. Yeah. And then, you know, And then cities, states, they pass laws that, you know, for the gentleman who passed away for selling lucies, right, loose cigarettes. It's like, why should that, you know, when you're looking at what the government is, what the government, what laws they're making that are forcing the police into these confrontations instead of just giving the guy a citation and walking away. So it's challenging.

It was a tough job. Brendan Greenhill, tips for surviving for an older 50-plus guy like me who has been out of training for a while. Get your body moving. You know, like I have had tons of injuries. I can't go out and straight and run, but I can move pretty effectively all the time.

So, you know, sometimes, when you're starting back up, I think it would important to be lightweight. Those workout bands are really good and work, you know, modify a range of motion until it's, until it, you know, you're getting your strength back, but you want to work really light and high repetition because before you start building muscle, you want to start making sure the underlayment, the ligaments and tendons are strong. Otherwise, you're going to have these big muscles and still be weak under

and even more prone to injury. And the other thing about repetition is it's good for the cardio of the heart, right? So I like to do almost daily. I do a 60 rep workout. So I'll take the bands. I'll do 60, you know, these. I try to do one rep per second. I'll do 60 overhead presses with the bands, 60 triceps, 60 curls, just boom, boom, boom, maybe start out with 30, right? something that you can manage and actually complete the goal. But your rest period, if you had to take a minute because you're just in really bad shape and can't breathe and you're struggling, you know, take no more than a minute rest. But your goal is to take a 10 second rest between the exercises and to do one rep per second

per minute. So when you're doing that, you're actually getting into cardio rehab. You're strengthening your heart. You know, both of my brothers passed away in the V. on an operating table under anesthesia because they had a weak heart. They both smoked excessively, drank quite a bit. And I think otherwise, if they've worked on their heart condition and just general health, they would have stood a much better opportunity of surviving this.

So, you know. Brendan's question actually kind of leads into something you talk about in the book. And, you know, because he says for surviving, you know, surviving for older people. And maybe we're not even talking about a 50-year-old who's never even been trained. Anybody who's never been trained, you know, and they're, and they say, you know, I don't want to be able to, it doesn't matter if I can get into a ring and fight with an MMA person, but I want to feel safe on the street. I want to feel safe, you know, when I go someplace. And I don't have, you know, $200 a month to spend on Maita.

classes. I don't have a ton of time. I've got a family or I've got school. There are all these programs out there, you know, Delta Force, Navy SEAL, hand-to-hand, learn the tactics of, you know, learn the self-defense techniques of people who are sent behind enemy lines with only a knife. Like what would you say about a person who wants to learn some fundamental self-defense, but is not going to train to be a fighter? Well, you know, know, there's a couple of elements that you just have to incorporate. One of them is what I call impact training, you know. I mean, like when I take my gloves and work out, I'll just work on my body, you know,

because you're going to get hit and you got to keep, you know, I would actually start out, frankly, with just basic boxing, you know, one, two, punch, a couple hooks, because as easy as you can throw a right hand, you can throw an elbow. And a lot of your fights are going to be so close and out of control. It's what I call fight, confusion. like to bring people in where they're off balance and they can't get their techniques off properly. And then I start working a lot of real nasty techniques straight up and down the center line. So you also have to learn a little bit about how to hurt people. I mean, you don't have to

be an expert boxer to stick your finger in a guy's eye, right? And that's going to shut most people down instantaneously. So, you know, growing shots are valuable. Almost any sharp edge weapon. I mean, this is what it is. But if I took this part away, then they just had a little spike. That's quite a weapon on its own. You can roll up a newspaper or magazine and break bricks with them. You know, just take it by the spine and just roll it really hard. So I think learning, you know, what around you, which is almost anything and everything, can be used as a weapon. And then what's the best way to deploy it in an emergency, you know? So and then you've got to learn a little bit about to, how to use the natural terrain in your environment for protection, right? Like alleyways, parking lots stepping behind, you know,

trash cans or anything, you know, dropping things in front of people's feet, just disrupting their timing. And what would you say about, I don't know, all of the programs out there that'll teach you how to defeat any attacker in seven moves? And, you know, because there's so much, marketing, right? Yes. Kung Fu is stronger, Jim. Is it yours or this other guy? I can teach you how to be the guy in one move, you know, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen. Right. I mean, it takes more than just training. It takes a level of practical application and

also the, you know, the book has a lot to do with mindset. You know, how do you, how do you get your mind focused on, you know, not being, you know, scared, fight or flight, all that chemistry that makes you weak, strong, and then weak, you know, when somebody jumps on you, you feel like you're going to faint sometimes, right? How do you just go into action? Like those 10 second drills I was talking about, that's a technique. But my inside out training, I work inside of this box, you know, right in front of you, because the fight's not across the street, not across the room, it's here. So also train focus.

It doesn't mean don't be aware of your surroundings. Don't be smart on your route selection or your clothing. You know, you think all that through in your pre-planning, right? But in your physical pre-planning, think from the inside outward. Because what goes on here, I mean, a great example, if you guys ever watch football, those interior alignment, when they come off the line, they're just not too big guys running into each other. They're trying to work around each other and maneuver each other. There's so much little handplay on when those guys come off the line, they can turn you around in a hurry and they can

hurt you and put you down real fast just by working angles, right? So learning how to balance and shift your weight in a real natural way and, you know, tucking your chin always just biting down, just, you know, no loose jaws and just keeping everything real tight. And he's because you can work so fast and effectively once you learn how gravity and can affect your punch strength, you know, with just a little short steps. Fights don't last long. You can do it in seven moves. But I would never guarantee it.

It's more about your mental preparation and get your body to, you know, pull your body along with it. Jim, I got one more question for you. And then I want to roll right into the contents of your new book, a mind for a fight. I want to get into that. But there's one thing that I was kind of teasing out on social media in preparation for this episode that I saw people were really interested in. I started talking about the Colombian Lancero course that you had gone through. Yeah. And the Colombian Lancero, it's the Columbian Ranger School.

And the culmination of it, the final test, is a live combat patrol. in enemy territory. It was against FARC for many years. And so I wanted to ask you, you know, if you could tell us about your experience going to the Lancero course. Yeah, well, you know, when they take you down to the Amazon River Basin where these patrols occur, the FARC trains in the exact same area. So you get combat pay or hazardous duty pay, you know, whether you ever actually get in contact or not. One night we decided to break some protocols going around a danger zone because we're falling behind, you know, like our schedule or supposed to hit a target. So we decided to cut through the middle. And there was a big light in the middle

of the field, for example. And as soon as we took the light out, a dog starts barking, you know, a lot of drug dealers, both in the States and in Columbia and everywhere else, they don't have these sophisticated alarm system. They got dogs. And dogs are very good. good here right and uh so as dog starts barking we're thinking oh boy we do with all of sudden some some people opened up on us you know open fire on us like christ i won't cut i won't cuss on your show you can i don't i don't know the rules right so i'm like oh damn so i jumped what i thought was behind a berm it was actually about a six inch knoll but you know you've been in fire fight yourself, right?

Sizes and shapes take different size and shape, you know, in a hurry. And you may think you're safe and you're really not. But now we were split up into three groups because we had an advanced group out. And all of a sudden, we've got muzzle fire going in every direction. And, you know, at the end of the day, when the smoke cleared, six people were killed, none of ours. So, you know, we took the credit. it down there they're so poor.

It's likewise in the Philippines. You have to spend all day going around picking up all the brass. Because if you don't pick up the brass, the enemy will pick up the brass and go reload it. So, I mean, you actually, oddly enough, you'll lose points in your training if you're not. Holy shit. If you went out with 30 rounds and you don't come back with 30 pieces of brass, they deduct points from you. Very critical.

And then we were patrolling one day and this, I had, General Escobar's son was right next to me. He's like here. And I heard an explosion. And you know, you've had things fly by your head before, right, Jack? Yeah, yeah. Sounds like little springs or something just cutting through the air. And I saw him go down. I'm thinking because everything moves ultra fast.

And I'm thinking, smartest guy out here. I better get down too. And I go down. And this is very important. important story to me. I looked over at him and whatever whizzed by my head, didn't whiz by his, it went through his head and took off his cheek, a big part of his neck and he was just gone. And it was so hot that it actually cauterized most in route. And his eyes were still open and, you know, bringing that particular thing, there's several dreams, you know, like when we talk about

combat related PTSD and stress dreams, you know, there's a different. between flashbacks and nightmares. Nightmares are not flashbacks. They're nightmares, right? So you'll probably have both. I think most people don't know when they're having flashbacks. You have to learn all these little triggers. But one of my nightmares is this specific incident. It kind of repeats and replays itself in my head. Only at one point in time, the VA tried to put me on some sort of antidepressant drugs. I don't know what they were, but I kind of hallucinated through this dream. And a guy starts waking up and coming to and it's not. I just jumped up straight back to the VA.

I said, whatever you're going to do with me is going to be without drugs. You know, so. Yeah. But you learn to cope and deal with these things. You know, I'm confident both you two guys. And many of our listeners have their own experiences, you know. But yeah, you know, when you, when you go down and you're cleaning things up and picking up your brass and you got part of the guys' ears and brains on you.

It stays with you, not for a little while, but for the rest of your life, even, even, especially when you're not thinking about it. Yeah, yeah, it just pops up at the weirdest moments, yeah. What the hell happened? Was it like a grape shot or an IED or something like that? More of an IED. We don't know because once it blew off, it just, I mean, it took off tree barks and stuff, you know, so we never found the container itself.

I don't think it was set properly. I think if there was any bad guy on the backside, it would have got them too. But however this thing was detonated, we don't even know that. So what was, you know, could you tell us a little bit about the rest of the course as far as like the training

and what it encompasses up to the test mission? It's terrible. It's like Ranger School with no safety standards. and it's very, very hot. Melgar Columbia gets in what they call the prima Vetta, which is our springtime. It's just summertime. You're closer to the equator.

It gets literally 125, 130 degrees ambient temperature during the day. So it's very, very hot. And you know how you got to go on your rug, marches your PTA, your physical fitness, your hand-to-hand pit. I got extra points for cracking a guy's neck and a hand-to-hand pit. Well, you're a forte. That's your thing.

Yeah, they gave me 100. Yeah, the guy, I didn't realize a lot of these Spanish fellows have good wrestling and jihitsu skill. Yeah, yeah. And so he caught him by surprise. So I put a face down and cracked his vertebrae. And they gave me 150 positive points. Another thing is it kind of poor. So all your train is live fire because they can't afford blank ammunition.

So you've got to be careful and extra cautious in your planning and movement. activity because every round that goes down range is a real round, you know. When I was in Ranger Battalion, we sent somebody to Lancero and he came back and I remember him saying that you no shit had to be in the patrol base by 5 p.m. Because it gets so dark in the jungle, like you just can't see your hand in front of your face. Well, you know, it's not just that. They have stuff in that jungle that, uh, I mean, they have mosquitoes that look like clouds. and that Amazon River has piranha in it.

You know, I mean, there's stuff in there that just isn't natural. And it is. It's black. You know, it's like when I was in Desert Storm and they, you know, those oil rigs were, you know, caught on fire by Saddam's people. And when we're going through the breach points, at one point, we got down wind and and you couldn't see the windshield on your truck. It was so bad, you know.

But, yeah, you got to. to be buckled down, you know, the stand, too, that you go through and Ranger School is, takes on a different meaning down there. And, uh, and of course, you know, they don't use a lot of high tech anything. Uh, like we're low crawling through a cow pasture. I'm sure your buddy might be able to tell you. And they make you crawl right through the cow dung and it's got magids in it and stuff. And they got these big, do you tell you about the, uh, water barrels in the barracks? they're open on the top and the monkeys come in and pissing the drink out of the water barrels and that's your water.

I got amoeic and bacteria disantarily. I was down there. So it's, and the class before me, one of our guys got pulled out. And it's when they, the FARC, you know,

attacked the embassy down there years ago. One of our, one of my teammates was in the class before mine. They pulled them out and took them down to defend the embassy. so it's just yeah that's crazy yeah it's it was even in Panama

you know when Fort Sherman was still up and you did the jungle warfare training down there it's like triple canopy night vision doesn't work because there's no elimination they've got the black palm which are these spikes

that metal and the black palm are that you can't see so you start to lose your footing and you reach out and all of a sudden you have spikes through your hand so yeah when it gets a It's dark. Everything stops because there's no moving. If you ever walked into that nettle at night or day, that's like catching on fire.

And you don't see it, you know. Yeah. And they got bad snakes, fertilants and all that stuff and. Oh, the 50 calipers. Yeah. The big centipedes, millipedes or whatever. Yeah. Hala monkeys all night long.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's a whole other episode getting into the stories with you about Fort Gullick and all the Gulf War stuff. And I mean, there's just so much other stuff. And we'll talk about on the bonus segment after this, we'll talk about the Greenlight missions. When you were on the Greenlight team, training to infiltrate with essentially a backpack nuke into foreign countries. You know, we went to war with the Soviets. But right now, I wanted to make sure that we talk about and a lot some time to talking about,

talking about your new book, A Mind for Fight or A Mind to Fight? What was the title of the book, Jim? A Mind for the Fight. Thank you. So what is this book about what is American Extension Fighting? Okay, so the book itself, it establishes the architecture and the framework around what I call American Extension Fighting. American Extension Fighting is a system that I've developed and had sanctioned and certified by Grandmaster Jerry Pennington and Danny McCall signed off on it. But it's taken me literally 47 years. But over the last 27 years, I've been working at trying to create a system that would unify other systems without saying this, you know, one of my biggest headaches is, my karate is better than your karate, you know. It's, it's, we should be a family, right?

But every, every style and every system also has gaps, you know, like the taekwondo guy, the pure jiu-jitsu guy, you know, the stand-up game, the, the street, you know, self-defense, you know, just there's gaps everywhere in movement, technique, the imperfection of a real fight. And we try to do, to, uh, series of different technological analytics and a lot of critical eyes on people, styles, and systems to be able to pull together there, you know, and filling in the gaps and not take away, but add to whatever they're already doing. And of course, the curriculum for

the style itself is individualized. Like we have multifaceted curriculums that you can learn how kickbox. You can train as a mixed martial artist, street fighter, boxer, or you can cover all the aspects. At some point in time during your training, you have to be completely aware of it, how to take what I learned as a boxer into the street or into an MMA ring. What's important? And how does everything tie and trend together, you know, so American Estensify is a very complete way to train. And there's a lot to do with the mindset, you know, because we've created the system-focused approach, you know, instead of the old style linear stuff where they push you through the training, you know, give me 15 kicks or 20 push-ups or give me this or

that, you know, it's almost punitive in many cases. And, and, but the thing is they're doing for goal setting and positive reinforcement. And it's kind of hard to be punitive while you're reinforcing the guy, right? So, you know, the system itself is geared towards how to train the complete fighter. And there's a psychological umbrella. You know, we create these three buckets, right, these three toolboxes for mechanical, technical and psychological development. But they're actually enshrouded behind the scenes with the entire environment.

environment and a lot deeper dive, which tie into the technical fight principles. So it all blends in a way to make these toolboxes work. You know, it's just a complete system. So, Jim, when, you know, you talk about, you talk about Joe Lewis and how he sort of combined thing. And, you know, you talk about, you know, you talk about Jekundo and then you have AF. So there are pre-existing systems that try to take everything useful and leave everything that's not. What differentiates like American Extension Fighting from G-Cundo, where they're both, where they're all, you know, everybody's saying, yeah, we only use what's useful.

Well, I'm not saying what's useful. I'm saying what's useful at the time, you know, so, right? So you have to know an awful lot. you know, the theory is to know a lot and use a little. So you're going to learn ground up fighting, but you're also going to learn what makes your body work. You know, like conservation of angular momentum is involved in all types of sports. You know, it's the theory of the whip.

It's how power is generated through each joint from the floor up. As you twist and turn every joint, you're gaining momentum and power, you know. and how to put that power, not just way out here on the end of my fist, but right here on my elbow or headbut. So there's a lot of shifting and turning and, you know, learning a lot about, you know, biomechanics are a big part of it, how gravity and pliometric training impact your ability to, you know, control different situations. You know, obviously, if you're in a boxing match, you're going to wear a boxing glove. If you're a shooter, you want to use open palm. So, you know, the knowledge base covers the environment as well.

It's not a very linear approach. And it fills all gaps. One of the things that I got from reading your book, and for the people who don't know, your book actually goes over fights that you've been in. Yeah. And lessons learned from those fights, which is a very, very unique way of sort of teaching this self-defense or fight, you know, idea or strategy. and the thing that sort of because you know I I grew up in the 70s 80s 90s you know watch the first

UFC I was aware of the the Gracies prior to that and Danny and Anzanto and Gicundo and all that stuff and sorry I'm trying to get my point here so Gekundo takes the best of everything but but they're talking about the best technique, right? Or the best, or they try to. But it seems like more what you're doing is not just training technique, but teaching situation. Like in that you have to train it in a variety of situations. Like techniques become, I don't know, redundant at a certain point. But you have to be capable in a lot of different situations. Well, you know, what you do on is 17 degrees outside. And icy or a snowbank or you're in the jungles of Panama are going to be two completely different things even if it's trying to throw a three-point combination how you stand how you position yourself

you know what what type of clothing you should wear yeah it all plays a part but the the more important aspect is these three toolboxes right now we put 10 bullet points in each one it's it's The mindset's more about instead of wasting time on lagging indicators, you screwed up this, you didn't do that right. You know, which, you know, you've trained. You hear it all the time, right? We don't focus on that. We focus on what you're doing right.

And but without feeling guilt or shame or anything weird like that, you can look back into this box and say, and realize, well, you know, there's three areas that I can improve. on, but there's seven other areas that I haven't even trained on. Right. So, so, and then that's layered through the environment and the technical, you know, so it, it has so many layers of, of ways to enhance your personal mindset and capability,

you know, with simple techniques that will really allow you to walk down the street with a good feeling about yourself and a pretty short amount. of time. And I'll be honest with you. I mean, look, I'm a huge, huge Bruce Lee fan. I'm a huge Muhammad Ali fan. You know, I don't believe in their politics or whatever, you know, but the truth is, you know, he revolutionized boxing with footwork. Bruce Lee's footwork is, you know, like in the movie Return of the Dragon with him and Chuck Norris in the Rome Coliseum, you know, he starts dancing and around and stuff. But in all of his G. Condo patterns in his book, that doesn't exist.

And he's using the one inch punch. That one inch punch is all angular momentum. It's just power, an explosion, you know. But it's so linear and your power side is up front. I would challenge it to these days and saying, hey, there's a lot of gaps here. You know, there was a guy. If he's on tonight, he knows who he is, who is. who was a big Jekung Do guy that one was in Panama many years ago,

wanted to spar with me and I knocked him out. He was very good. And he was more physically fit than I was. He was a monster athlete. He was deadly serious. But, you know, he didn't do well once you penetrated that strong side and work hook or angular, you know, techniques. It's just offensively, it's a good system with the straight.

blast and stuff is pretty effective but but it i think could re-evaluate some of its defensive strategies you know jim tell us uh you know about your book um i i like want you to tell us about the content you know somebody opens up page one you know what is the the the format of this book what are people going to take away from it so the book itself um starts it a book is written I have 10 fight stories because people will remember the fight stories. Including the G.B. Club stories in there. Including the G.B. one.

So there's 10 fight stories. And we have restructured the technical fight principles. So there are 10 more understandable, digestible, pragmatic fight principles. But yet all the older ones, we still pay homage to the history and who brought this to where it is today. Right. And, but now it's still there, but it's more digestible. And I have 10 street fighting tenants.

And then we have the toolkit, right? The, you know, the tools to develop with is you're not going to learn how to kick or punch from this book. You're going to learn how to establish the foundation for anything that you're currently doing. You know, American karate, jiu-jitsu, boxing, taekwondo, you know, No, it doesn't matter. This framework, you could technically, if you ran a karate club today or you were in a Krav Magov's course, you could rip these technical fight principles out, put them in a fishbone outline, stick them on a poster on your wall, and it can become your Bible that you can dive

back into for the gospel about what makes this technique really work. What's going to bring life to it, you know, in the real. real fight. And that's the purpose behind the book is to start refocusing how we perceive and think about training to make what we do real, you know, because there's so many karate guys, no disrespect, they're very, very good, quality human beings that can literally walk into the worst side of the Bronx and get their butt whooped in about two seconds. And I'm not talking about people that trained that have had previous. street fights or a lot of your, you know, UFC mixed martial arts guys that are banging

it up every day or pro boxers. But even they can get in trouble pretty fast, you know, because the streets are different. And let me, I mean, I think that that was one of the real strengths of the book was that you had all these practical examples, you know, this happened in a bar, this happened in a club. I got, you know, you square off in the book with other green berets, pro football players who else some huge guy jumps you at the parking lot out behind Rick's lounge

and you ended up gouging his eyeball and I mean there's just some crazy shit in there getting beer bottles smashed over your head and your face sliced off and there's some like I mean there's stuff in there about you and Dale Comstock out you know beating some ass out in a bar one night yeah I want to hit you up

about like some of the concepts that are in your book. And like you mentioned it before a little earlier, I'd like to hear you expound on it. What is fight confusion? You know, it's funny. There are a few things that keep coming back from very experienced fighters that I've spoken to about this book.

And I mean, they're really, really quality guys to a point where some of them actually do understand what fight confusion is. And they were like just thrilled that I put it out there. because, you know, conceptually, they felt like people wouldn't understand that. But, you know, a fight is chaos. It's extreme violence.

First and foremost, nobody's perfect, you know, perfect punches, perfect position. And even if they were, they're not going to be perfect all the time. When a fight begins, a real fight, if it's not going your way, I like to mix things up. And there's a lot of ways you can do it technically with your hands or movement by, you know, slapping a guy in the face, by changing your timing and rhythm on the inside, headbutting. And switching up, changing your lead hand, right? That was another thing you mentioned? Yeah, I use a switchup not to really change the hand, but to close a gap.

You know, I'll do what they call Crash the Party. If things ain't going wrong. I'll just switch up, bang, and I'll just run right into them. I'll do what the, you know, sacrifice throws, you know, sacrifice myself. But there's, there's a real hard, solid case defense built in when I do these things. Doesn't mean I'm not going to get injured or cut. It means I'm not going to get knocked out. You're not going to break anything.

And I'm taking away my center line, all this vulnerable, soft underbelly when I crash into you. and I'm at the same time exposed theirs. So the difference in a simple term, Jack will be if, for example, I'm going to counter your punch and I allow you to punch to try to block it and counter, right? First, when I see your initial motion, I just step straight into it. You know, so as soon as your body starts to move, you just crash in. It's going to, you know, disrupt your thinking and put you on the defense automatically, even if you're having offensive mindset.

You're playing catch up in the first second of the fight, and that confuses the mind. Is that like, you know, the Yip Man, you know, attack a punch with a punch, attack a kick with a kick? I don't think so. Not completely, no. I think that's more of a blocking and checking thing and trapping deal, which in things. theory isn't that confusing. You know, it's just aggravate. Jim, can you define framing up for people who don't understand that terminology?

What framing? Yeah, what framing means. So creating a frame, yeah. So framing is not an original term, but I call it a fighting frame. So with me, it's a little bit different. But one thing, when you frame, you never cross your hands like this because you can get pinned, you know? But whether I'm moving left or right, my hands are going to be so they can move so I can pendulum block, strike the nuts, bang. But when you frame the shoulder, the hand of the jaw come together because I can use this body to still work with elbows, hands, hammer my fist, head, butt, knees, and I can protect everything down my center line. But what's really important in the frame is that this motion here by the jaw, it immobile. qualizes your head so that you don't get this coup countercoup where the head moves and the brain catches up. So even if you get hit or cut, you're still in the fight.

You know, your lower body is going to be somewhere between 50-50 and a slightly pressed forward because the constant forward pressure. Because you can fight going back. The biggest concern is getting your front leg taken out by a Muay Thai guy or sweeper. but there's a counter for that as well, Bill, Tim, but that's stuff we teach along the way. But the frame when somebody comes down, you can actually rake. I call rake and, you know,

their, they're off, is straight down, bang like this. You step in, go to the nuts, make them pike the hips head butt, bang, hammer fist, hit the carotid, you know, or strike the eyes, you know, really simply. Now, for those of you are listening on the podcast, you make sure that you check out our YouTube video, at least for this segment, because Jim is demonstrating it.

Is that high side hand, is that preloaded for you, Jim? Is that loaded for a strike or is that you looking for that? Both hands are loaded for a strike and a block. So I can block a strike just like that. So if I can come in, plus when you're here, you can also pop-p-p-pub, use your elbows, forearms, you can rake the eyes. I mean, it sets you up a whole lot of stuff. And I know you're going to have some really experienced mixed martial arts go,

oh, I'll just put a triangle choke on them. Trust me, those elbows and headbutts and no growing strikes. Remember, this is a no rules game. It's real defense. Jim, you really need to start making, if not, I mean, I guess instructional DVDs or a thing of the past, but start making instructional videos streamed on the internet or something, start demonstrating some of these techniques and getting a word out there. I'm doing a film shoot in the next couple of, within 60 days, we're working on a time.

So yeah. What is initial timing speed? Oh, it's basically how quick you go from zero to 60. If I'm punching my hand in and out like this, this is kind of miles per hour speed. If my whole body is frozen up like this and all of a sudden it just moves, that initial move, that takeoff is the initial timing speed. How fast you take off from, you know, from zero to, you know, your maximum. speed. And I tell you, that's critical to a real fight because, you know, also you can break

your timing up like it's called broken rhythm timing. So you can shake, you know, you can go fast, slow to boom and just break up the rhythm. It also creates more fight confusion. But you can get your whole body into it. You know, it's like a, I call it plyometric striking. So I'm usually punching upward and out. I'm using that plyometric. Otherwise, or I'm going to use gravity fed punches where my right foot may just may lighten up my left foot while I drive off the back and bend my knees just drop my whole body weight into the punch, and foul, you know, so there's tons of power in these punches. I mean, I'm knocked out so many people because it's the way I learned.

The concept fire first. So a lot of guys, you see this with males all the time, young males especially, like the bow up getting each other's chest to chest, having words with one another, you know, or come up one guy pushes the other guy, the other dude pushes back because neither of them, you know,

deep down really want to get punched in the face. And then it goes to fist the cuffs. You know, one of the stories in your books, a guy who calls himself Ice Pick has his hands in his pockets, comes up to you. And he's just,

he starts taking his hands out of his pockets. And you're like, you know what? Fuck this. And just fucking throw down and do them right there. Like now I'm not, I'm not even waiting for you to pull this bullshit on me. What do you mean when you say fire first? Fire first. I mean, you have to develop us, I call a spider senses, you know, when a threat is for real and it's imminent. And look, I could have been off the mark what I speak. But when a guy walks up to you,

blocks your path, he's got his two wing men with him, his hands are in his pocket. And he says, something to me, you're Jim West, you should have cried a guy, blah, blah, whatever. And I said, well, who are you? And he says, they call me ice pick and he starts to blow his hands out of his pocket. I'm going to fire his ass up, you know, because he's not going to stick me with that damn ice pick. So it was pretty good, though, because I folded him up, reached over, pulled his sweater over his head, and need him in a face a few times and sidesteped his two buddies and walked between two cars and created a funnel. So like dummies, they got in a straight line. and as I hit one, he fell backwards and fell over the other one,

and then I'll get up and run. But, you know, you can control your environment pretty easy. You know, you just have to know what, you know, I watch people online, these, you know, telling ladies that when you're walking to a parking lot at Walmart to stay in the open spaces and do, somebody sweet by and pick you right up, you know. I like to walk by the cars because those cars you can create a fun.

and get yourself aligned a specific way that you can actually, if you have one of these or one of those, you know, or Mace, you know, just make sure you point it in the right direction. 50% of people who use Mace squirt their self in the face, their own self, you know, by accident. But, but yeah, I always preach to people. You use your environment and terrain. And, you know, if you were on a patrol,

would you want to be out in an open field? Nope. But I mean, the Jim West methodology is like, hey, if you're at the bar and dude's just sizing you up for too long, fuck this. Like just do it just do it right there. Take the initiative. You know, I had a, I had a girl asked me one time many, many years ago. She went to my karate stood. It says, how do you know when to hit some?

What's the best time to hit somebody? I said, when they're running their mouth. The jaw is loose, you know, you're going to break their jaw. Yeah. It's like the James Bond villain. He's telling you everything he's about to do. I look at it like this. This is my space. You know, everything within these two arms is my space, my livelihood. As someone gets closer and closer and closer to you, their hands disappear. You know, because you can only see, you know, so far. they say 180 maybe more if you're trained but when we're chest to chest and nose and nose you can't see those hands and remember my experiences I mean when Dennis got stabbed that night in the

gb club he was nose and nose at the guy he never saw that knife coming if if I mean if you can't be willing to sacrifice your own security because somebody wants to threaten you or run their mouth I mean, to me, you have to take all threats seriously. Beware that, you know, don't throw them on the ground, start stomping on them. Do your damage and quit, you know, because legally you could be held accountable for being excessive, right? So, you know, you have to have a measured response, but make it real, you know, and that's one of the things that we work towards. Do you also, how do you respond to somebody taking an interview position if you, you know, with you, you know, because that's, that's an interview. position can be a very offensive position, but well hidden. Do you treat that as a threat also?

I do. I treat everything as a threat. Yeah, like you said early in the podcast, it's not what I am, it's who I am. Yeah. And anytime anybody looks and leans towards me, gets in my space, whatever, I just, I'll even ask them, I'll put my hands. I said, please, you know, you know, know, just take a step back or I'll step back. And if they pursue, then the warning's already been given, you know, so I don't feel guilty if I lay them out. Now, have you ever legally been in trouble for any of your first strikes or anything like that?

And how did you deal with it? It's kind of funny. In the old days that, you know, today you can get arrested for spitting on the sidewalk, you know, when I first joined the Army, went to Fort Bragg, they were, they were, they were running a paddy wagons every hour up and down the hay street yeah hay street back in the day i just putting people in a paddy wagon and taking down a correctional confinement and let me paint rocks and carry logs around for two weeks and i didn't even bust you you know but uh um so yeah i got in a few things like i got in a real bad a nasty fight at pope air force but it's not in the book

um i thought someone hit my brother in the mouth that's what my brother's over there and there's a big fighting everyone's fighting. Little did I know the fight started outside the bar, migrated to itself inside. There's all kinds of people like a, like a movie scene. And I made my way over to the bar and my brother's sitting there and he's holding some guy over the bar by his throat.

And it looked like his chin was split open. I'm like, oh, who did that? And he goes, he did. Don't worry about it. I go, hop and hit the guy. And this security cop grabs me by the neck and pulls me back against wall. When he grabbed me, I put my hook in here and I grabbed him by the balls. and I'm twisting. He's like, you got my balls. Let go. You got my balls. I'm like, you got my throat. Let go. You got my throat. And so, so, you know, obviously he let go. I'll turn around, hop and hit him. I didn't know where he was an SP. But when I hit him, he went down the wall and his hat fell on my arm, that white cap. And I'm like, oh, my goodness, I'm in trouble. So here comes the other guys, like the Keystone cops. I threw my hands up in the air. And they took me outside, no handcuffs, just like Rick's lounge.

handcuffs, you know? And as I'm, so as I'm walking outside, I can't remember the first guy I hit. I had a few adult beverages. And there was a guy that had obviously been in another fight, but I thought it was when I was in. He was being treated at the cop car by an EMT. And I looked over there and he called me an assholes. So I moved the EMT and kicked him in the face. And the cops started to run me down. I looked up. I saw the original guy. And he started running. and I started chasing him. The cops were chasing me, and I grabbed him and wrestling down. I'm hitting him and trying to get the best I could.

And the cops were hit me in the back and it with a stick and trying to lift me off of him. And I lost my grip. And this is a true story, guys. So I didn't, I wasn't finished. I used to be an angry young man. I locked my hands. I pulled him because, you know, because they had my feet all up in here trying, you know, trying to like pulling a pit bull off of you.

And I literally bit two plugs out of him. and the cops weren't real happy about that. So they arrested me for maiming. And so they took me down to the police station, the SP station. I'm sitting there and they had a whole room full of other people in there, all from fighting. And I could see out of my door to the death sergeant's office. And they brought some guy in there and took the handcuffs off. And the guy grabbed the scissors, jumped over to death and tried to kill the death sergeant.

And so they started beating him in the head and face with the desk. those Billy clubs. And they looked back and they saw me and the guy walks back over to me and he goes, did you see that? And I said, see what? And they took the cuffs off and told me to get out of there. So I just left, you know, so it was pretty easy handle. All while West days were a lot different, you know.

One of the stories in the book was the Applebee's story. You know, that was just one punch, one and done. And but the guy went out and they busted his skull open. So the manager said he was going to call the cop. cops showed up. I didn't do anything excessive. I just hit him one time. Gave my ID card. They reviewed the security cameras, came back, asked me if they're wrapping this guy up like the mummy. And I asked me if I wanted to press charges. And I'm like, well, no, I don't want anything to do with any of this guy. So they let me go. But then I made sure that

the cops, you know, just thinking ahead were, you know, probably going to wait outside, knowing I've been drinking. So, you know, sat there, got myself a coffee, some water. Wade and this other guy comes over. He actually recognized me from working down south in the black gilly suits, which is really weird. There's Aberdeen Proving Grounds and he's, you're that guy. I'm like, oh, my God. So he says, look, these cops are waiting on the outside. Let me give you ride home. So, you know, teaming and partnering up with right people is always good too. I love that story in the book where, you know, dude smashes a beer bottle over your head and you start just waving your head, I have AIDS, I have AIDS, I have AIDS. And they're blood going

all over the bar? Well, the cop asked me, you know, he, he's, you know, I had my face was cut open. I had the end of my nose, my cheek cut open, 26 stitches over my eye. And so, you know, the head bleeds, I had blood going everywhere. And a cop's like, ah, you know, he was all nervous and stuff. And he says, you, outside. And I'm like, I looked around, it's payday night in Fayette in Fayette, you know, Fort Bragg. It's just everybody's packed in there trying to either be a part of the fight to look at it. And I said, I got this. I started. shaking my head back up i got aids and you know blood was going everywhere it looked like moses part in the red sea i look back to cops 20 feet away i said i'm joking i don't have AIDS and so so you know

but but not before you you uppercutted the guy that instigated all that shit yeah he was standing right outside the door uh and he kind of got off the hook early unlike the other guys and uh as my right foot crossed the threshold he's leaning on the wall like this and as soon as my foot hits the ground and I hear this I saw him on my peripheral vision and the cop was behind me the detective and he goes there's that asshole I just I just dipped down I did a 180 and came you know like an arm wrestler right up under his chin took his feet off the ground and went straight down actually hit him so hard to dislocated his brain stem

wow this dislocated his brainstem yeah he's in a wheelchair today. Wow. I think we probably already covered it at this point by another concept in your book, Go ugly early. Go ugly early. Make it dirty. You know, remember there are no rules in a street fight and a real fight, right? So if, you know, you size up the situation,

you know, you think that, hey, look, I'm going to get my tail whooped here. Going ugly early is pouring beer in it, spitting in their face, clawing the eyes, biting them, you know, whatever it takes to to make some space and some room for you to either continue to eliminate the threat in front of you and around you or to get yourself to a safe space. But going ugly early, creates fight confusion, puts your attacker on the immediate defense, and allows you

an opportunity to live to tell your stories another day. there's also i mean a lot of room for deception i i have a buddy who acted like he was going to throw up right before a fight like throw up on the guy and the guy kind of backwheeled like the guy was all up on him and you know then i was sitting when my buddy started to kind of throw up the guy backwheeled and you know my buddy used that as his opportunity yeah you know that that's that's cool but if somebody's doing this stuff you either need to turn it

turn and leave, you know, create real space or knock him around out. I mean, I hit a guy in Fayetteville one night so hard, his head bounced off the wall, and it was all full of food and fat. And, you know, he was being really bad. And he was going to beat me up and cut me with a hawk bill. And I hit him, and his head bounced off the wall. And you probably know when you get a concussion, you throw up a lot of times. Yeah.

And I go, boom. And he goes, whoa, project it all vomited all over me. Oh my God. You know, fortunately he went phase down because I didn't want to fight after that. I wanted to go take a shower. There are so many fucking insane stories in this book. I really hope that a lot of people will go out there and pick it up. It's pretty much all I had planned for this episode.

I mean, Dave, if you have any questions, shoot him out. Jim, if there's anything at all, I failed to cover that you think we should mention on this show. You know, guys bring it up. We have a couple more questions that I wanted to do. Zach, thank you very much. At Jack, is that a henipen I saw earlier? No, no. Oh, my gang.

Oh, my gang. I don't want to ask what that is on the can. It's a cock, Jim. A cock. You know what one of those is, right? Shame on you. It's not a child-wimely channel. DJ, a great episode, guys.

Thank you very much for the donation. DJ, Bricktop, Madik. Thank you very much for the donation. We really appreciate it. Alex Bennett. What martial art would be most effective for a 5-4-inch guy? So, Jim, I know we're talking about

kind of a best system, but are there systems that are suited for people of various sizes, people of various genders, like? No. I think knowing how to work with what you have is crucial. A short guy has a lot of advantages. He just needs to know how to use them. For example, if a guy is punching down,

he doesn't know how to take advantage of gravity, then he actually loses power punching down. If a guy's shorter and he's coming up and he's on the inside, then he's going to cut off a lot of the quality punches the taller guy is throwing, and you're going to deliver more power pliometrically coming up from the ground because you've got your leg strength working behind those punches. I mean, I train with Roger Dabney all the time. He's a shorter guy, 10th degree black, but I've known since he was 16.

He's fought for world titles. And he's tough on the inside. I don't mind him on the outside, but he works his way in, and he just bombs you with these monster punches on the inside, because that's where he's comfortable. Once you get inside of a guy's reach, if he's not really schooled on knees and elbows and how to use mother nature gravity and his body, they become an easy target for a shorter guy. So don't say, hey, I'm short. I'm going to lose every fight because that's certainly not true. You know, and speak of deception, you know, once you're up close on a guy, you have more leverage and he's going to not see a lot of what you're doing.

you know, just, yeah, don't worry about being short. Just learn how to maximize your power. Excellent. I think that's the last of those. What's the uncanny valley effect? Damn. That's a good one. It's a bad one.

It's actually very excellent. I try to shy away from that one because I'm doing something with it now. We can skip it. No, no, no, no. It's in the book. It's there. It's there. You can look, it's, uh, so this Japanese roboticist, you know, back in the era of the 60s,

whatever, he, uh, try to get robots. You know, how you see these robotic dogs and people were trying to walk. And, you know, he tried to get robots to move like human beings. And it looks really weird. And right. So, you know, they're walking and your mind's adjusting to, to the fact that, well, I can see him walking. And then when they say he turns, he does that quick robotic movement, even, you know,

he just turned. he moved and they get these funky movements. Your mind knows exactly what's going on, but it's very uncanny. It's almost eerie when you look at it, especially up close. You hear me talking about working inside the box, and Jack, you ask questions. You kind of pinpointed a few things like the frame and also this initial timing speed and broken rhythm timing. these are the key ingredients of how to work inside the box and create an uncanny valley effect. I can take any one of your listeners today, and I would willingly do it on film, Jack, with you guys. And within less than an hour, I'd say within 30 minutes, have anyone, any male, female, old young, be able to affect this uncanny valley effect in a firefight effect in a five.

writing term to take out an opponent with five to seven punches in less than two seconds. And all of them hit the vulnerable areas of the body. And at the very same time, you're eliminate your, your soft spot. So this is something I've trained hard and long on. And I can make it work for anyone. So in essence, are you saying that uncanny valley effect is sort of like, creating an awkward fighter because you know sometimes people go well they're really awkward to fight because of what is that essentially it or no no it creates an eerie it creates an erie almost uncanny

feeling and so you're you know psychologically your brain is suddenly playing catch up because even though you see what's in front of you it doesn't register in the same part of the mind so it's like you're you're you're speak of fight confusion you're going i know i just saw what i saw but how did that happen you know and it's happening so fast that your mind never has an opportunity to catch up and i can teach you anybody that in a day jim everybody who is watching uh and will watch i'm sure will go okay i want to i want to train with jim west how do i do that if people want to train with you how would they do that be patient for the next couple of months, there's a few things that are going on.

I'm working on some programs with three other people right now. And we're going to introduce something that's never been done the way we plan to introduce it. And so I can't speak to those aspects. And while this is going on, I'm also still rehabbing. And, you know, last year I got seven new screws in my humorous in my shoulder, and they had to reconnect my bicep and, you know, it's working pretty good right now, but I still have some impingements. I, it's good enough to teach by, but, you know, I'm a very hands-on guy, right, Jack? I notice. So I like to have my tools.

And, and frankly, you know, all this technical stuff is really nice. And just to be able to deliver a really powerful for a short guy, an overhand right, right up closer than your face where you just devastate your opponent with one shot, it looks simple, but there are a lot of little pieces that move to get you to that spot, that perfect spot in time. And we're working on all that stuff, you know, in my right hand, that overhand right has been my juice for since I was 110 pounds, you know, so I'm frustrated.

But if you want to train with me, I will give coaching and advice now, but hands on, you may have to travel to me or we could work out travel arrangements and time for me to go different places. And we'd really have to do a saturation session over maybe a two or three day weekend. And if they wanted to do something remote or whatever, how would they reach out to you? I would say go out to I'll tell you I'll give you my one of my emails James Smokey West at gmail.com okay Jack you want to put that

well okay yeah we put it up on on the description later on to get in touch with them and also we'll put the link to Jim's book his new book A Mind for the Fight American Extension Fighting an evolutionary mindset and systems focused approach towards a unified skill set for self-defense, street survival, and combat sports excellence.

That's the name of Jim's new book. Like I said, I finished it yesterday. You know, Dave is piling through it. It's really good. It's really good. I'll promise you that this will be different than anything you've ever read about self-defense or martial arts or hand-to-hand. It is completely different than anything that you've been used to.

I have to give kudos to my co-writer Justin McCauley. His dad was a tier one operator on Dale Comstock's team. Super, super guy. Justin did a terrific job with the book. He really does. The work he had to put in and put up with me because I'm such a nitpicky kind of guy. First, the book had to read like I wrote it. I had to, you know, and I have a lot to do with it. all the evolutionary mindset techniques and principles are come directly from me.

But Justin's ability to, I mean, because Jack, you've known me for years, to pull out of my head and put it in writing is nearly impossible. Justin's the first challenge. In person, your instruction is top notch. But to put it on the paper, yeah, it took Justin to do that and to do justice to it. Yeah, because he was one of my seven-year-old black belts. And he went full circle. His dad went to 10th group.

He went from Delta, 10th group, went to Germany. Justin's growing up. He's done martial arts his entire life. He's 34 years now. He went to Dubai for a number of years, like six years. He's trained in Austria. He's trained with tier one athletes and fighters for his entire life. And he's so obsessed with martial arts.

Not only does he train, he evaluates he breaks down fighters all the time you know does analysis i mean he lives and breathes it every day of his life and because of what i instilled in him when he was seven years old and and and uh now he's really i wish you were here today because he's uh so thrilled to be working with me again and closing the loop on the stuff you know the special sauce that seemed to be missing their gaps and uh he has an awesome way of learning. So he's good, you know, and he's also got a degree in journalism. So he knows how to extract that information. He did a great job with it. So guys, go pick up Jim's book.

For all of you who joined us live tonight, thank you so much for watching the show. I hope you really enjoyed it. If you can, you know, please give us a little thumbs up. You know, like the video, share it with your friends, subscribe to the channel if you haven't already. And if you're interested in supporting the channel financially and getting access also to the bonus segments we do with our guests. There's a link down in the description to our Patreon page. And after this is overall, also put the link to Jim's new book in there as well. So we'll be back with Jim for our Patreon supporters in a few minutes to talk about his time on Greenlight. And next episode, so it'll be what, episode 45? We were going to have an FBI and CIA historian on who's pretty,

permanent, you know, guy in his field. But because of everything going on in the world, we had to delay that he'll be on in the fall. So the guy who came out and bailed our ass out of the fire, I reached out to an old friend of mine. Me and this guy go way back. We went through SFS together.

We're in the Q-Course together. We're fifth group together. And he just got out of the Army a couple of years ago. So he's going to come on. He's got all kinds of great stories. We'll have a really good time next episode, wrapping with him. And that's about it for this show.

So thanks, everybody. Thank you, Jim, for, you know, spending your time with us tonight. Yeah, thanks. Pleasure. Yeah, you guys are always great, man. I'm here for you. And, you know, hopefully the people will help you out and keep your show running, man. Because they're treating us well.

Hey, guys, with our patroness, yeah, small is a dollar a month. It keeps us, and you get access to amazing content that you don't see anywhere else, you know, inside stories, personal stories. Jim's going to tell us about his time with Greenlight teams, which are jumping tactical nukes into countries. Not just jumping, diving. So it's worth here and about. Where do you hardcore?

Just the delivery system. And please share this video if any of you are on hand-to-hand blogs, martial art blogs, military spec ops blogs, whatever. Jim is truly somebody, it's living history. He's somebody who needs to be heard. It's one of the OGs. I do have to put kudos out to a few guys like George Clark and Dave Coes. If you don't mind, they're friends of mine.

Remember the fight I got into where I stuck my finger on the big guys eye on the park? Yeah, yeah. Last time I saw them was all the way back then. Oh, really? And they've come back online and they've been training with, you know, Jeff Smith, Bob Wall, you know, Norris, Jim Hartley. He's listening to the night, the heartless one. these are all legends of martial arts.

And they have invited me into their family and embraced it. And I'll tell you, it was a big gap in my life for the last 30 years. So, you know, George and Jim and all you guys, I just want to thank you. I know you're listening now, but, man, it means the world to me that you've invited me into your inner circle. So I just want to thank you guys. You deserve it, Jim. One of us.

And one final sidebar, the guy who does. designed the original logo for American Extension Fighting as a previous guest on this show, George Hand, who is a student of yours. Where's George? Yeah. Oh, he's out there. He's out there. He lives in Albuquerque now.

Yeah. So thank you guys. And we will see you next Friday. So take care, everybody. Be soon.