The Team House - Special Operations Weather Technician | Travis Sanford | Ep. 253

Episode Date: January 18, 2024

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why don't you just send us an email and we'll talk about it. Special Operations, Covert Ops, espionage, the Team House, with your hosts, Jack Murphy, and David Park. Hey, everyone. Welcome to episode 253 of the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with David Park. And our guest on tonight's show is Travis Sanford.

Travis served in the Air Force as a Sao Tea, special operations weather technician. And we're really happy to have him on the show. We've been wanting to have one of you guys on the show for quite a while, so I'm really glad that this could happen. Welcome. Thank you, Travis. Yeah, yeah, no.

Somebody should call like Animal Control. because I think you guys might have caught a unicorn. It sounds like trying to get us out to you guy on any kind of show like this and talk about, you know, what we do is, it's hard to do sometimes. We're glad to finally make it happen here. So, Travis, I'll start off asking the question I ask most of our guests about your origin story. If you can tell us a little bit about how you grew up and how that took you towards the Air Force. Yeah, so I grew up in central Missouri, Jefferson City. You know, I wish I could say I grew up and, you know, played sports and wanted to join the military and knew that was the path was going to take.

But I think for a lot of guys, that was not the case, you know. So played baseball, basketball all through high school with the dream of going on and playing in college. Actually went to college for a year here in Kansas City, where I live now. As a fresh 17-18-year-old kid away from home for the first time, really kind of just lost my mind. I think I was more interested in girls. who was in my class and what I was doing on Friday night, than what I was supposed to be concentrated on in the classroom itself. So I think I got a 1.8 my freshman year first semester,

which led to academic probation for the second semester. And as second semester didn't work out that way either. I ended up actually getting, I went to a junior college even. I lived in an apartment off campus. and I remember it was probably April, we got in notice on our door about having like a parties, right? We just kept having parties over and over again.

This apartment complex kind of gave us a warning. And so we didn't have a party for a few months and we were like, we thought, you know, as young kids, like, well, they probably forgot about it by now. We could probably have at least one more party like in springtime. So we had this party. And it was a tiny apartment and it was probably shoulder to shoulder. And the next morning we just got a thing in our door.

Like you have two weeks to get out. And I was like, oh, shit. shit. Like, so didn't want to like tell my dad I got evicted and have that discussion. So kind of lived out of my car for a little bit and kind of couch surf through the end of semester. And, um, I remember my dad had come up and saw it inside my my SUV and saw all my stuff. And he was like, what's going on? I was like, you dad been couch surfing since April. And he was like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, come home. Like so I ended up moving back to Jeff City and, and got a job on a landscaping crew.

You know, shout out Sam Gaines, a hardworking man, but, you know, he kind of put me to work, and that was some tough work. And I think at that time, I was like, you know what? Like, I got to do something else in my life. I can't be, you know, building brick walls and mowing and weed eating every day. So I was like, well, I'm going to join the military. And at the time, like, I didn't want to do anything tough.

Like, I'd been doing manual labor. And I was like, I want to do the easiest, most push job, get me some ACs. So I was like, I want to join the Air Force, right? Like, that's what people say. So I walked into the recruiter's office and he was, you know, did the ASVAB and scored fairly well on that. And I said, what do you want to do? I don't care, man. I just want I want a job like I can set in the air conditioning, like, you know, straight up.

Like, I don't want to do anything crazy outside. And so I got a job as like a just a normal Air Force. weatherman. So I, for the first few years of my career, I predicted and forecasted weather out in Davis Monthan from Wyoming down to El Paso. And that's really where, you know, my journey kind of began. Like I was kind of like a fish out of water there. You know, after a few years, I guess, pretty athletic, pretty strong. And we had a commander come in. His name was Colonel Don Shannon. And he was a prior Sauti officer. And so he'd just taken over command. And, you know, we'd done PT, kind of pulled me, you know, aside and was like, you know, do you like what you're doing?

Like, you enjoy being here. You know, I was like, sure, yeah, yes, sir. Like, I didn't quite know what to say. And he's like, I'm going to be honest. Like, I think you could do something else. Like there's, you ever heard of like Saudi tea? And I'm like, no, like, not really. This is like kind of like pre like internet, you know, 2000. We had internet, like 2005, six, seven around that range to where I wasn't Googling things every day like you do now. Right. Right. Um, So he kind of just gave me like a quick breakdown was like here's what you got to do. Like, you know, obviously you got to learn how to swim, talking about the ASSOC test and like how to prepare for it and didn't know how to swim. I mean, I grew up swimming in lakes like I could survive, but I wasn't like a great swimmer.

So I just started training. And I remember we had an officer from the Naples Academy and she swam. And I was like, listen, like I need to learn to swim to take this test, this ASLO testing. like, you know, how far you got to swim? And I was like, 1,600 meters, you know. And she's like, okay, tell me to the pool, I literally could not swim two laps. But I would just, like, had my head above the water, I gas out. And so we start from the basics, you know, so I had my head in the water blowing bubbles,

like you learn as a little kid and learned to swim. And then went and took the ass up, which is like a little, like, free cursor kind of test. You can see if you qualify. And that was at Scott Air Force Base and ended up qualifying. And from there, you kind of get orders and, you know, you start your journey along the Sauti path. So, you know, that's kind of how I got started. You know, how it ended up was nothing what I thought it was going to be when I first joined in 2005. Travis.

I just want to clarify for people who might not be falling along, Salty is special operations weather technician, right? And so you went from being a weatherman in the Air Force. Can you tell us what that training pipeline is like? I mean, do they give you a crystal ball so you can progniscate? Or how does that work? So week one, they give you like a giant rock. And they tell you to go outside and set it on the ground. And like when the rock gets wet, you can tell them that it's like raining and things like that.

No. But yeah. So from the weather perspective, it's a very atmospheric physics heavy. You know, so that was probably the toughest, you know, challenge a mental course. know through it was like having to understand air masses and physics and you know how you know when you look at whether it's like a 3D thing you know so you have to be able to kind of visualize that and so it ended up being you know right about a year worth of training just in like the classroom to understand whether I was down in Biloxi Mississippi during Hurricane Katrina and so that kind of derailed

training a little bit I was right in the middle of it when Katrina hit and so we sheltered in place there and kind of had a few months delay. But that was, you know, probably the most, you know, mentally challenging part was just getting through that weather school. Did anybody at the school foresee Katrina? Oh, yeah, for sure. That was, when it was coming, like, we have to do like these handmade charts where you're kind of like going through

and figuring out, like, pressure gradients and things like that. And they were kind of, everybody was pretty dialed in and known what was happening. when they made the call to kind of shelter in place when all these other bases were evacuating around us. Like that was kind of like, I'm glad that I was just too dumb and stupid to understand what's happening because like here we are like on the coast, just setting in a building and Hurricane train is going on outside and the base is flooding. You're just like, I'm just here chilling watching the DVD player, right? Remember the old DVD players that the portables?

You know, I'm just like no idea what's going on outside. And so how long is the like the weather technician, the standard weather technician course? Yeah, so the standard one, like we just come in as a conventional weatherman, it's probably 11 months if you're not having those interruptions. That's wild. You know, so it's fairly long. You know, it's not a quick turnaround there, especially if like you get washed back, you know, which can derail you six weeks if you can each washback.

And then is that, is the qualification that you guys get out of that, is it similar to like what a civilian meteorologist would be when you see them like on the, if they are, I don't know if they're meteorologist or just talking heads, but is it the same type of thing or is it more intense? It's the same type of understanding. I would say like, you know, most of the ones you see on TV, they have a four-year degree, you know, like so they might understand a little more of the science. part behind it, but, you know, weather is about patterns. Like, once you understand the physics of stuff, then you start to understand the patterns, you know, like, so whenever I was forecasting from Wyoming down to El Paso, each location, so Fort Carson, like all those different bases, you understand where the mountains are and you understand like historically if we get winds from this direction, it's going to cause afternoon thunderstorms because you get upslope, you know,

you know, things like that. So understanding just the pattern, you know, makes forecasting a little bit easier, which, you know, that kind of helps you're on a fob for six months. You can kind of understand those patterns a little bit better as well. So there's a lot of pattern recognition that goes with like knowing what the local, what's happening locally? Correct. Yeah.

Yep. And then, you know, a tough part about that job, too, is getting the general public to understand the differences between watches, warnings, things like that. Like, it's just a lot of misconception, right? And so if, like, you put out a weather watch, I'm not saying that it's going to happen. I'm saying that we have, like, basically all the ingredients to happen, you know, especially like when we're talking about severe weather. Like, but severe weather, like tornadoes, things like that, like one minor detail is missing.

It's not going to happen, you know. And so sometimes, like, that minor detail is unforecast. You know, like it's just, there's nothing out there to predict it. So that's why you get the watches and warning. So the warning is like, hey, it's imminent. It's going to happen versus the watches. You know, hey, could, but just saying like we got everything's favorable, but I'm not saying it's going to happen.

And just to connect the dots for John Q Public, I know this is kind of an obvious question for you. But why is it so important to have Weatherman and the Air Force? Like, what is the task? Why are you doing this? Yeah. I mean, thinking where I started there at Davis Mothin, like, you're protecting all those assets on the ground. You know, you think of every base that you're forecasting for, has ground assets, has personnel assets.

You know, probably one of the most impactful things while I was in Davis Mothen just being a typical weather person was around the 4th July for Cannon Air Force Base. They were having a 4th of July like celebration event. But that earlier that morning, you know, everything was shaping up to have a Haley event. there later on in the afternoon in the evening. And so I kind of put out a watch. The watch turned into a warning kind of late afternoon. And that base commander, like, I was at, you know, an E3. The base commander from Canon called my desk and was like,

what are you doing? Like, it's funny here. Like, you're putting out a hail warning. Like, I'm going to cancel, you know, the event. I'm about to put away the F-16s. I have to do all this stuff, you know? And it's like, you kind of like either guys. to stand by your forecast or kind of crumble, you know, so that point, like, I kind of stood by

it and sure enough, thankfully it hailed that night and looked like I was smart for at least one day. Yeah. And unfortunately, it seems like in that type of job, you can go from zero to hero or hero to zero real quick. And no time flat, right? Yeah. Yep. Yep.

So better be sure about it. Yeah. You know, and if you're wrong, you better have a good sense of humor because, you you're going to hear about it. Yeah. So you go to this AFSOC sort of prepatory school pre-testing, and take us a little bit through the Sao-T training and that pipeline, and how that differs from being a conventional weatherman.

Yeah, yeah. So the pipeline that I went through versus where it is now is a complete 180. And so I was kind of like this new generation of Sao-Ti to where they had these seats in these schools, but it wasn't like a, you know, a very clear path from dot to dot. It was, we have seats. We'll send you these seats whenever they're open, but it wasn't very fluid. And so I showed up the Herbert Field. And I actually, before I even went to any courses or anything, there was a training mission

up here at Fort Leonard Wood where the 160th was, had some training. And they needed people just a fast rope onto a building so they could just do some. some elevators over and over. And they're like, well, we got this new guy, a couple new guys here. They don't really have any experience, but like we can send them up and they can be bodies. And like, I've never fast open my life. And so I show up here.

I go to Fort Campbell. They got me connected with an instructor at Air Assault for like two hours. And we go on the tower and just imagine like these air assault, you know, grunts. They're just kind of like having to be able to go down the tower at all for a few weeks. and like fresh Air Force guy shows up. I go straight to the top. He gives me like a quick five minute. Okay, this will be going to do.

You feel comfortable. Let's roll. And I just started going down the tower. And that night, my first time fast-roping out of a live helicopter was at night with the 160th on top of a roof somewhere near Fort Leonardwood, Missouri. You know, and it's like just doing stuff like that where it's like you just had to adapt. You know, so went to that school, went to a couple shooting school. right off the bat before I even did any kind of conventional training. So I went to rifles only, which is down in South Texas. That was my first shooting school I went to, went to an avalanche assessment

school in Jackson Hole, got avalanche certified. And then I went to the STTS with some special tactics training to water. And so that ended up being about six to nine months, where your small unit tactics, heavy weapons, insertions, you know, and full mission profiles. So once you graduate there, you graduate your five level and you're pretty much deployable. You know, so, you know, look back, it's a lot of training, but also not a lot of time. You know, so it was one of those things like it takes, they had to be really selective on who they pick on who they can put in those situations because it's not like you're getting this two-year training pipeline like you do now. Like now it's, you're in a pipeline for two years. Right.

You're going school school. You're as trained as you can be. Whereas, you know, my first deployment, I show up. I'm questioning, like, I don't know if I belong, like, if I'm qualified to be here. You know, like, there's things that I hadn't even experienced yet. You know, so that was kind of what was unique about that time that I went through. It was like, they were just starting to set up the pipeline. They were just starting to implement things, but I was like probably a year or two early.

So, and so I was kind of like a guinea pig almost. What had SWT? Because you said an officer spoke to you or somebody, who had been there and spoke to you about it. What had it been prior to this? What was the vision for what is a weather guy doing in the special operations community other than telling little birds that they can and can't go up, right? Yeah.

And then how was it changing as you were there? Because I think, you know, you're talking about a pipeline, sort of like similar to what CCT or PJs have, but they didn't have that set up for you guys, but they envisioned you in a role that you hadn't been in before, correct? right correct correct yeah so you know pre nine 11 sautti was a lot of you know kind of 160th support you know the you went with where the 160th went you were you know that dedicated asset um and then 911 happens and you know i'm not positive what kicked off having the sautti on the ground

at each individual fob um but at some point it did probably in that 06 07 time frame where now we're starting to be on the five, we're starting to, you know, run with teams unilaterally. You know, you start having Sautis get assigned to those CSAR missions, you know, any kind of mission on the ground. Now we're putting that scenario. And so I think that, when that happened, they realize, okay, now we need to figure out a pipeline. Like, we can't just be put these guys in here that have these piecemeal training plans.

We need a structured training plan. And Sauti, we didn't become our own career field probably around until like 2009. Like we were a shred out of the conventional weather. So they put like a J designator on our job code, our MWF. And you have that J just signifying you're a jumper. And so once we got the designated career field, then the pipeline could stand up. and then they can kind of break away from, you know, traditional weather. Right.

And why, what is the benefit or what was the vision of having a souti guy off the fob, right? It running, you know, whether with the QRF or with it on target, why do they want that? I think it came to fruition, moving away from just your weather, you know, piece. you know, because you don't need to have a weather guy on a mission if we're talking just traditional weather like you see on TV. You know, where weather comes into play, you know, where South Teacompe came into play was a lot of like environmental reconnaissance, you know, so, you know, mission planning things. You know, so I remember, you know, one mission, you know, planning, we were going to do a river

crossing, you know, and we're just looking at imagery. And so we go to riverine horses. We understand like natural depth points in a river based off how it's meandering. You know, so you can kind of help the team leads be like, hey, like, I know this is advantageous and you want to cross here. But like, I don't know if I would, if we've never been there before, like, this wouldn't be my first choice and here's why. You know, because I know I'm going to get natural pulling, you know, around this bend here. And, you know, maybe we look, you know, somewhere else. So I think they were trying to bring that environmental piece into it to help in the mission planning side.

Yeah. And kind of prevent, you know, having to cancel a mission, you know, on the zero. hour having to push if you can just get in the forefront of things and get there you know sooner uh makes me planning easier so in a way you guys are expanding to like the old pathfinder role of like the density of soil on an airfield or the old the old udt is what is the beach like but you're like this is like mid-mission stuff what's this river crossing going to be like or what are these areas like so it's all environmental factors now that you're trying to figure out yeah yeah and i think think now, you know, now that they're, they're changed to the career field is called special reconnaissance now. So it's no longer called special operations weather. So it's now special

reconnaissance. So, you know, they're, they're going to ARSIC. They're going to these different schools that are more aligned with what they were trying to do back then. You know, and so I think they're going to go that route, you know, throwing up a UAV and doing some reconson to the UAV. Like, So, you know, we were Raven certified. Like, we were constantly just looking for different things to tie to our name to say, this is a capability we can provide. Right. You know, whether it was the Raven, whether it was driving schools, like, anything you could do

to just be an asset to the mission beyond just traditional weather. Right. And so how are you feeling about all of this going from initially the guy that just wants to sit in the AC? Now they're getting you, like, jocked up to go out on missions. special ops guys. Yeah, yeah. I mean, once I made a decision to do it, it was kind of like I was all in. Right.

You know, and then once you go through training for a while, then it's like you have that young man's mindset. We're like, well, if I don't get in a firefight, like, it was a failure. Right. Now I'm older. It's like, that probably wasn't a mindset than I have, right? You know, so I was Amped. So I mean, when I graduated, like, I wanted to go to Kobe, like, I hope I get a science. want to go to COBRA. I want to go to Anaconda. I wanted to go to the hottest spots.

So I remember I was supposed to go to Chapman in 2010. And so I think was it December-ish. 09 is when they had the car bomb. Right around there. Yeah. Yep. And so they changed it. So I was going to Chapman until that happened. And they changed it. I remember I was driving home to Florida from Missouri. and I got a call like, hey, we're changing up your location. We're going to send you to, you know, Balammer God, Bob Todd. And I'm like, I've never heard of this place. Like, what the, damn it? Like, I'm going to go there and like, it's going to suck.

And like, ended up being, you know, an awesome deployment. You know, so happy that I actually got switched to go there. What was, when you're first showing up to these teams and you're the weather guy, which, again, is sort of a relatively new thing that people are getting thrown. How did people respond to you? What was the reaction? Yeah, I mean, as you could probably imagine, it was a tough, tough sell at first. You know, just to kind of paint the picture, you know, for people to try to understand.

When I showed up in 2010 to Bob Todd, I was with a Marine Special Operations team, a team that had been training together for at least a year. And all of a sudden, an Air Force guy won. like that's tough in itself like you're you're an air force guy like a lot of you know ODAs seal teams marsalk teams like they're not even thinking the air force has ground guys you show up and so you have that hurdle to get old run like okay you're an air force guy like you know what you're probably going to work the computer like what are you what are you going to do here um and then you tell them like you're a weather guy too and like there's just questions galore like kind of like this like well i don't get it like what are you going to do for me whenever we're

you know on on a direct action like what what's what's the point of having you there you know and so you kind of having to explain that and then you know sometimes like i was saying like i was there in afghanistan in the summer there's not really a reason for me to be there and that's where we got think outside the box like how else can i help you you know i think that's what made good souti operators versus bad ones was you had the ones that were like this is my box and i'm going to stay inside of it. Then you had the ones like, you know what, like my direct asset, you know, when I'm bringing the team, like it's not valuable right now. What else can I do to make myself valuable? You know, and they go out and they seek that. And the ones that did that, I think had great

deployments. Ones that didn't could have rough deployments to where, you know, they kind of get looked at as like, hey, you're just a paperweight that sets in the talk. So what were some of those like holes that you were able to fill? I mean, you're up on the 50 Cal? What kind of stuff did they have you doing? Yeah, so that's the great thing about the Air Force training was they understood that aspect. Like, so when you think of how to how a team set up, everyone, let's talk about ODA. You have your Bravo, your Echo, whoever, your Delta, they're good at that one specific thing, but we all know, like, you don't go to the Delta to say, hey, can you load some crypto into the radio and help me do this?

Like, it's very like, hey, this is my lane, this one I'm good at. that's your job kind of thing. And so the Air Force understood that. And they're like, you know what? Like we're going to set these guys up to where anytime they show up, they can help heavy weapons. They can help, you know, a Bravo. Like we understand radios, you know, so, you know, I carried the 117. I had the 152.

I could do satcom and get satcom up pretty quick, you know. And a lot of times our radio equipment was, you know, a little better than some of the Army stuff that they were running better than the Marsut guys stuff they had. And so was able to be, you know, pretty capable, you know, comms guy in my own right. And so once I showed I could do that, you know, so the kind of key to it is you show up and you, you kind of assess the situation. Like, you know, it's kind of like you figure out who the alphas are, who the decision makers are, who are the people are going to have influence, you know, like your team leaders, your team sergeant, and you're saying, okay, now how can I get around them to show them something that they're not expecting?

Right. You know, and so that's what I did. Like I kind of assessed like, okay, you have your, you look at every team. There's always one or two, maybe three or four people that they're the physical guys. They're always in the gym. They're lifting. They just want to lift weights on appointments get jacked. Right?

So I was like, okay, well, I just went through this pipeline. Like I've been pretty good shape. I'm going to go work out with them so I can prove that I'm not just the Air Force dude. Like, I'm fit. Like I can lift. I'm strong. but check that box. Then you see the guy, the com guy, he was out every day, just comp checks all the time.

And so I just took that upon myself, hey, like, go ask questions. Like, you know, who's your backup? Like, you know, who's second? And I understand what he does. Like, hey, what's your problems? And he's like, yeah, before we mention, like, I'm the only one that can load crypto. And I was like, oh, man, I got this kick 13. I can load some crypto for you.

Like, let me jump on that. Like, I'll load these 12 radios for you. No problem. Just like, go chill out. And so, like, you do that. So, like, once you impacted all these decision makers, then it comes time to mission plan. Well, where are we going to put the Air Force guy?

And it became a point where it's like, I want him. Like, yeah, I want him on my element, you know, because they knew that I could do so many other things, you know, outside of just my mission set. Now, I know that, like, J-Tuck is, I mean, it's a very specific skill set. Those guys are highly trained. But as you, as an Air Force guy,

dealing with weather and air coming on to these, teams would they expect you to bring that capability and is that something that the Air Force worked in eventually yeah I didn't really get those questions like you know a lot as far as you know bring air assets you know because everyone all those teams they had their own J-TACC assigned to them so okay second deployment they would have an Air Force controller assigned to the team already so you know that was kind of nice but in the first deployment the Marines they had their own J-TAC their own air you know And so they didn't expect that.

One thing that did they come with the expectations when I'd show up was maybe getting different mission set. You know, and so my second deployment, especially, like, they knew, like, when I showed up, like, it was probably for a level two, but that they also want to use me since I'm there, I can get off base sometimes a little easier than what they could. You know, so if they had restrictions on what they could do, I remember my second employment in 2011, the team was having trouble, like, really operating. Like they were there just to train, you know, commandos or just train, you know, the local A&A. And they wanted to go do something. And I was like, well, like, there's a pretty diverse Wadi system, you know, a couple clicks away. Like, we could throw a con up together. I could say, I need to go assess this Wadi system.

We could put something in place to kind of get off the base, you know. And so we kind of do some little stuff like that. So, you know, anytime you can do that too and help them out, you know, that buys you some rapport as well. Sure. I think it's important to tell people who are civilians who have never been out there. I think there's nothing more frustrating when you're overseas in a combat zone to be, for whatever reason, to be stuck on your base. Have a mission. Everybody wants in the fight. And if you have a mission or if you have leadership that is less inclined to let you leave the base, like you say, just have an excuse to go out. to get out the wire, maybe do a little recon by fire, I don't know. Right.

You know, a reason maybe to, you know, walk into an ambulance. Do a little CRP, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's a huge asset. I want to ask you about your first mission, but first I just want to, real quick, tell people out there about our Patreon for folks out there who are interested in maybe getting these episodes ad-free. You can subscribe to our Patreon.

It's only $5 a month, and you'll get all of these episodes. So it's ad-free and it helps support the channel. We really appreciate it. Yeah, just a few dollars a month, a coffee a month, would actually help us in a way that we could stop using YouTube for our ads and just give everybody ad-free content. So please check it out. The link is down in the description.

So, Travis, could you tell us a little bit about your first mission out with Marsok on that first appointment? Yeah, yeah. So about March of 2010, So I'd only been there for maybe roughly a week. We ended up just going to do like almost a little CRP. You know, it was supposed to just be one of those little, you know, leave at about two, three in the morning. Parked the Humvees, just a couple clicks away from our objective.

And we're just going to walk in and just do a CRP that morning and kind of come back. But quickly kind of turned, you know, a different route here pretty quickly. So we ended up clearing a couple compounds down this valley. And then as we're moving up the valley, myself, the team leader, sniper, and some A&A, went up on top of a hill to provide Overwatch while the team is going to bound to the next set of compounds. And so this is probably, you know,

just before twilight, you know, so morning nautical was about to set in. And so we're up there and right around that time, we started taking fire from the compound. how we're trying to clear. And so as we're taking fire, one, five months, this is the first time I've been shot at.

So first mission, first deployment, started getting shot at for the first time. And that distinct crack you hear when like rounds are close. Like I remember that. Like it just makes a very distinct crack noise as it's going over you.

That, you know, we kind of talk about when I joined the Air Force where I was like, I just want to set in the AC. That was probably a moment where I was like, bro,

you just want to say, setting fucking AC like what are you doing you? How did you find yourself here? I could have been weed eating right now. I could have been weed eating. Yeah. So kind of had that, you know, it probably just wasn't more than just a second or two. But yeah, I remember I had this saw.

So I start firing back at this compound. Well, our sniper was a little too far over death blade of the hill. And so he had kind of had his head down. We're taking direct fire. And the round, it hit the hill and it kind of bounced up into his helmet. and he took a impact to the head. And so I remember the team leader was, you know, kind of yelling, like, you know, we have, you know, someone's shots down.

And I look over, like, they're still just, you know, taking shots at him. And he just laying there lifeless. And I was like, I remember just having like a second moment of like, well, I don't know what the fucking supposed to do, you know? So, you know, they tell you to shoot back, you know, like anytime you take casually, shoot back. You know, that's option number one. But two, I was like, you know what?

Like, we've got to go do something. And so I remember I left my little, you know, a hole that I had dug, you know, my fighting position and kind of ran over and grabbing by the ankles. And it kind of pulled him back behind defilade. So we got enrolled over, myself and the team leader had come over and tried to assess it. I remember I had some shears. So I took my shears and kind of cut off his kit. So I knew we're up on top of the hill around carrying like I needed making lighter. So I cut his kit off and called over to A&A.

So they took his torso and then I grabbed his feet and we started going down to the bottom of the hill to meet up with the medic. And so as we're going down the bottom of the hill, you know, like over time, kind of, you know, the memory is a little foggy, but it was a decent size hill. You know, so going down, my legs are pretty, you know, burnt up and, you know, grip, you know, my forearms are pretty smoked. And I remember having like a thought of like, you know, I just need to like take a break for a second or I'm going to like fall over and collapse and kind of had that mental voice in your head that was like you suck it like this is about something bigger than yourself. Like you'll be fine, you know, kind of moments. And so we got it down there and I just remember like sheer chaos kind of happening. And when something like that happens, you start making decisions that aren't. normal, you know, and it's not like natural.

And I remember I'm holding the wound on top of the head and like, that's what the medic said, hey, just hold this gauze here. He made a little donut. He's like, just hold this. And he gave me another guy that task of like, I need you to squeeze an air every five seconds. But he was so distraught. He couldn't. He wouldn't squeeze the bag. And so I remember the medic being like, dude, like what the fuck? Like squeeze the bag. And so I remember just being like, you know what? Like I got it. Like I can do this. And so I kind of, you push the other guy off because he was obviously just kind of like, you know, out of it. Like you've seen his teammate in that situation.

So did that. So we're calling in a medevac. Medivac comes to land and, you know, helicopters can't land, you know, anywhere outside of just open field, right? And so they're like, hey, we're going to have to throw him on a stretcher, but we need somebody to go transfer him out there. And I was like, you know, fuck it. Like, I'm here. Like, I'll do it. And so I remember I grabbed a couple two A&As.

I took the torso this time. They took the feet. We kind of ran the litter across the field, get the turnover. I gave the airborne medic, the vitals, and they kind of took off. It kind of ran back, grabbed my M4 because the saw was still at the top of the hill. I remember I put my M4 in a vehicle that had driven up because I had the Mark 19 on it. So they were providing stress a fire. So I just got in and grabbed my M4 and kind of jumped into the compound and got back into the fight.

and so we probably fought a couple more hours you know to the point where just kind of like nothing drastic happened just kind of died down was kind of one of those firefights where it's just we fought and they decided they didn't want to fight more you know probably took a couple casualties and was like this is enough for us and so we ended up walking out and I remember like walking out we get back to the fob

that and down like guys are kind of walking by and like you know good job like good job man like you know that impressed this with what you did. And I had no idea, like, the impact of the weight of the situation, you know? And I just remember, like, we didn't have a shower. We had a water blower and a water bladder and a water hose, right? And it was like over top of a wooden pallet with, like, a harp around it.

Like, that was our shower. So I remember going out there and I had blood all over me and my gloves. We were just bloody. I remember just standing there and, like, trying to rinse off. And, you know, and then I had that adrenaline dump, right? Like, after a firefight and it's like, just die. I exhausted. So I, like, racked out.

And probably about three or four hours later, I get woken up, you know, by the watch guy and he's like, hey, we got a phone call. You know, and obviously, like, the Air Force, like, they're tracking the mission, you know, so they knew I was in a tick. They knew, you know, I was on the ground and everything. And so I answered the phone and it's my captain. And he was kind of like, dude, like, what's going on? Like, how come you haven't sent me your after action?

And I'm like, I'm too tired to this. I don't mean, I just want to go to sleep. And he's like, all right, would shoot me over to after action report. And so, like, I remember, like, looking at the team lead who was writing up his AAR there in the talk. And I'm like, hey, like, can I just, like, copy yours over and send it? Like, I just want to go rack out. So I copied it over. He had kind of written about what had happened on top of the hill and had rain up and, like, kind of grabbed him and stuff.

And so I send it, go back to sleep. When the phone rings again and was like, holy shit, dude, like, whole shit, dude, like, Hold on a second. Like, let's take a pause here. Like, can you give me some details? Like, what happened, you know, from your own words? And like, I'm like, fuck. I mean, these guys just won't let me sleep.

Like, I was kind of like getting irritated. Yeah. You know, and it turns out like they're just trying to get information because like, you know, or post-deployment stuff. You know, and so I kind of went through that. And I was so young, my first mission, my first deployment. Like, I had no idea, like, what did you in that stuff meant, you know, whenever you're providing those AARs, like,

You know, and so a couple weeks ago by, like, obviously they kind of do their due diligence and provide more and more details and they start to have, you know, witnesses and, you know, accounts getting, you know, pulled in and stuff like that. But, yeah, that was my first exposure to, you know, the deployment was, was that, that situation. Now, that didn't come, that didn't, one of the reasons they're investigating all that, too, is because you actually had people that you were working with in team and an office. who is trying to do right by you, correct? Yeah, yeah. Like they were trying to figure out the details to like understand like what did I do. Was there witnesses to see it like, you know, and all that. And so, you know, I know the medic had written up a citation kind of thing and the team leader and, you know, kind of went through all their due diligence there.

So, but yeah, but me being young, I got you look at that and like, well, I don't understand like what the big deal is. Like if I was laying there on the ground. Right. I would expect every one of these other dudes to come up and grab me. Right. So it wasn't, I wouldn't take anything like that. Right. And so what was the result of those AARs and interviews and the citation stuff?

Yeah. So post deployment for that mission specifically, I was awarded a Bronze Star with Fowler for that one. So, but yeah, one of those things that I just did what I thought. you're trained to do, right? Like, that's part about being on team. Like, that's that brotherhood. You know, like, it didn't, it didn't even cross my mind what I was doing, you know,

honestly, like, you don't understand training. Like, when you're going through training, like, you do stuff like that, but you don't understand the impact of it. And until you're put in a situation, you're like, oh, that makes sense. Like, now I understand sometimes the cadre weren't just being dicks thing, like at the end the training day, you're exhausted saying, oh, you know, Dave, Dave shot, you got to carry Dave out to X-Fill. You know, so like, yeah, they might have been being dicks, but also, like, that's there for a purpose. Like, sometimes you got to do things when you're just exhausted,

and you just have to turn your brain off and perform. And so all that stuff just kind of made sense. So in the moment, it kind of felt like that. It felt like I was just with my team and training and they just said you know what like you have a casualty like move act on it um so traps i i want to ask you because you said this is your first firefight and at first your initial thoughts was wow like people are shooting i'm hearing these sonic cracks going nearby and then you know you do this heroic thing and then you're in this prolonged firefight at what point because this is a interesting question about i think soldiers airmen Marines, but about human, the human capacity for adapting.

At what point during this firefight, did it go from being your first firefight to just like, this is just what it is? Like, we're in this. I'm no longer astounded. I'm no longer flabbergasted. I'm no longer surprised. This is just normal. When I left the little foxhole that I had dug, you know, so I made the decision

to act, like from then on. And some, that point on through any other firefighter had been in. that moment was always just that. It's like you started seeking the violence, to where like during a firefight, like you didn't have that moment of, you know, oh shit or anything like that. It was you start seeking.

You know, and the closer calls, like that wasn't even my closest call, you know, but it's like those things, like when those things happened, like you didn't dwell on it. Like I probably think about those times more now when I've been out of it for, you know, nine-ish years than I did whenever I was in.

I look back on it now and it's like, holy crap, dude. Right. You're fortunate, like just a fortunate guy that got lucky sometimes. Are you saying that it seems more surreal in retrospect than it did when you were actually in the moment? 100%. Yeah, 100%. Like, you know, times where, you know, a round would hit a mud wall right by your head. And you don't think about the moment like, hey, six inches, like I take that on the nose.

but this time it was just a bunch of mud hit me on the side of the face you know things like that where it's like you kind of shake it off and laugh about it you know I think that was kind of the key for some of these guys mentally was some of those close calls you just literally look at it as humorous

you know like kind of like you laugh and kind of smile through the darkness you know and I think that helps guys kind of cope with that when you're down range like you're not thinking what could happen you know because I think when you start doing that,

now you're going to start moving slower. You're going to start second-guesting. You can't have that mindset. And you went back to that area with the Kandak Commandos and third group, right? Yeah, yeah. So like I mentioned when I went there, I was at first, man, this is going to be a deployment.

There's no action. We're not going to do anything. Well, the summer of 2010, Balamar Dobb was a pretty hot spot for, you know, ticks and firefighters. And so we'd have, you know, commandos coming up, you know, with different ODAs doing missions. So I remember there's right around my birthday, it was right around June. They'd come up and they were going to run a mission, you know, out to where we were at.

And we were the QRF. So we weren't even the primary force on this. So, you know, we were kind of just taking a break hanging out on the fob and running QRF. And, you know, you always have your Benevac bird. You got the Red Cross bird, which you can't put an armed force on. But then you got your escort bird. And so we're like, hey, we can put people on the escort bird. And so that was going to be our play was we're going to throw six guys on the

escort bird if they need a QRF to get there first. And then we can just kind of backfill from there. And so I ended up being on top one for any QRF. And so they're running the mission and they had a guy standing behind a four-wheeler, like for cover, which thinking about I was like, I don't understand what he was trying to do. but took a round on the shin. And so had that one, had another guy get shot in the shoulder. And so we got to the point where they called for a QRF.

And so we spin up and we kind of talk about those moments of, you know, the Pucker moments. This is probably one of the Pucker moments for me to where, you know, it's just kind of like poetic. It was like kind of written. I'm going back to this place after a few months to where I know it was my first firefight and I get on this helicopter, this first chalk and we're going. As you're getting on, like, oh, don't.

be by the door like don't be the guy by the door right and so i remember get on i'm sitting by the door i'm like okay the pilot just said it's going to be a right door exit and so i'm like okay well i'm left door so i'm cool well then they switch it up and like hey idl z we're actually going to go out the left door and so i'm just in my head like thinking this is like too perfect like you know i can't can't go out like this so the door opens up and i remember telling the buddy next to me um his name was was Lucas and I'm like, dude, like, when we get off, like, we just need to bolt like 50 meters and get down just to get away from this bird. And so we'd get off and like, we just beeline, take a knee, get down and the prone. And like, I look up and like, we'd beeline in the wrong

direction. Like, we had gotten off the bird and like we found ourselves like 25 meters from the rest of the team. So we ended up, we linked up. And so the Marines, what I loved about them, they said screw cast. Like, they were like the most pushed the fight. dudes like maybe this team but we got there and we met up with the team sergeant with team e the ODA and they kind of gave us the lay the way in where they're getting fire from and so we just said you know what like we're just going to flank them and we're just going to rush them and so I remember that our element leader was like here what we're going to do we're going to like kind of come down this valley and just rush through this valley and get on the compound as quick as possible

and so I'm like all right and so like the ODA they were just going to lay cover fire for us and so I remember running across this field, you know, and trying to get to this compound and, like, rounds are going off around our feet. And, like, we're kind of just bounding a little bit. And so we're bounding, and I'm in the prone position. And I look over in the element leader, he's, like, on a knee with, like, rounds going off. And I just never be, like, dude, this guy just, like, doesn't give a shit. Like, you know. And so we kind of just, you know, bomb rush this compound and clear it, you know.

And there's only, like, about two guys in it. And so we kind of clear the compound. And, you know, from there it was over. You know, the firefight was over and, you know, the ODA X-filled. And then we ex-filled after that. So I ended up, you know, kind of funny. I got an accommodation medal for Valor for that one, which is weird to get a V device on a Com medal.

But, yeah, so that was getting off the helicopter was definitely a little Pucker moment. Yeah. Honestly, I didn't even know that there were V devices on Com, on Com ribbons until recent. I had never heard of that but it's been a thing for a long time yeah yeah so got that

but yeah I mean gosh that was such a good deployment got into so many you know good fire fights are you that familiar with Yuri Miller have you heard of Yuri Miller? No I have not Yuri Miller no

so he was a controller he's got a silver star a combat controller silver star so he was with I believe a team out of Fort Lewis and they came and we did like a big level two and that was

a gigantic firefight and getting a silver star that day but that one we're in Phil and I remember being on an MRAP before I got off and so I was with an element that was going to watch a couple bridges

there in Bala Mavre that like the Taliban would always try to flank from and so we were kind of up on a hill and so I got off this MRAP with the element immediately after getting off the MRAP hit an IED and so instantly back at Bogger and wherever the Air Force talk was like it's going out that you know my vehicle is hit with an IED right

and so my buddy's in country like they're kind of talking on the chat channel hey you heard from SD they've heard from SD like I think he's still out there you know kind of thing going on but we get on and so we're kind of getting to a little tick You know, I remember they were shooting from us from a mosque, which, yeah, like all these rules we talk about. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

No strike targets. Yeah. And so we start taking fire. So we get into this little compound and we're kind of just monitoring the A&A with us. A&A's monitoring their little two-way radio. Well, all of a sudden, like the A&A just start packing their stuff up. And we're like kind of, it's just myself, three Mar-Sotte guys and an army guy. there was with us.

They start packing their stuff up. And I remember we go over and like, hey, what's going on? And they're like, hey, we just, we heard that the Taliban sending like 50 people, you know, 50 fighters to our location. Like, we're not going to stay here. And we're like, well, you have to stay here. Like, you don't have a choice. And they're like, no, we're leaving.

And we were within walking distance to the five. So that's how close, you know, green space, white space, you know, we were. And so, like, they climbed out of the hole in the back of the compound. and walked back to the Fobb and left us. And so, like, we're there. Like, we can't just leave. Like, we're, you know, protecting the, you know, flank side of the other, you know, clearing, you know, unit.

And so we all just picked a corner in this compound. And we're just like, you know what? Like, if they're coming, like they're coming, that's just the way it's going to be. You know, so you kind of have a kind of moment to where it's like, hey, like, this is the way it's going to end. Like, this is what we're going to do and this is our plan. You know, we kind of talked what we're going to do if that time came.

But that's where, like, my radio comms, you know, kind of background came into play. It was like, you know what? Like, I can get SATCOM up. And so I got on SAT 102, made a call back to Bogram, just to let them know the situation, asked them to relay to the JTAC because we were out of line of sight. I couldn't reach him by line of sight. I was like relayed to the JTAC situation. like we don't have any A&A, it's just us.

Can you put a sensor on us, you know, and kind of let us know how we can prepare? And so we kind of worked out comms that way. And so we talk about, you know, how can you impact a mission outside of weather? Having that Tom's background helped us, you know, to survive that situation. Was this the same mission where you walked in on the Taliban lookout towers or was that different? Yeah, so this is a completely different one, you know. So that whole deployment was just filled with stuff. So yeah, that mission there, there was a couple lookout towers that we, you know,

we're going to walk to at night. And so we left the fob, walked down. You know, we had our security element. So I was part of like the direct action force. So we kind of walked in and we just kind of set up along this wall. And just it was kind of like a hard two, three minutes of just heavy fire. And then that was it. And then we'd walk back.

you know and it kind of got them you know i think we killed like two guys on that mission but then it turned into they started shooting at each other and you know so you're just sitting there under NVGs like kind of watching them panic and shooting each other and trying to figure out where it was coming from uh so we walked back through the fob that night and what was funny is the next day the Taliban had their own associated press right and so we are kind of picking up some of these these news articles apparently that night i must have got a combat jump in because the taliban was saying We had jumped down behind enemy lines. We had, you know, had a coordinated attack on the tower and all this stuff.

But we actually just walked there. But the whole point of that mission was to just create some, you know, fear amongst them, which is where now, like, they didn't want to keep guys there. Like, you know, the watchmen were refusing to stay there in the watchtower overnight because they were afraid it was going to happen to them. Travis, you talked about a couple times where, you know, you talked about a couple times where, you, you thought, or you thought in a way that the end is nigh, right? And we can talk about when you're in an exposed firefight and that you're just operating on, you know, on reflex. But when you're in

a lead vehicle driving down a road that you think is like full of IEDs, when you're in a helicopter that you think is under fire and you're coming out that door, when you're sitting there in a compound, you know, with a handful of guys and you think 50 A&A are coming in your position. Like those are the times. It's sort of like, it reminds me of sort of like the imagery of D-Day when guys are coming off the landing craft, knowing that these German positions are focused on them. How is that different, how is that anticipation of violence and the anticipation of harm to you different than the actual act of being in a firefight where you feel like you may or may not have you may have a little bit more control of this situation yeah yeah i think once you're actually

in it and you have control like that's where like that we talk about training you talk about some of the most um i don't say impactful but like the highest level training you can get like the amount of money that the military puts into us to to to transfer situations it's money spent you know well because like it just you you you drop it in training like mode. I think is when you're not active, like that's where the mind starts to kind of race and kind of take off. So when you combat that, you know, some self-talk, you know, I'm not sure if you're big on self-talk or it's just like kind of those moments where like you're waiting and it's like you have to remind yourself who you are, you know, where you've been, what you've done,

you know, so I did a lot of that. You know, sometimes you got to pump yourself up. I remember, like, telling myself like uh sometimes like going into it like the remember the movie jarhead to where like jami fox was like you know kind of reside as i walk through the valley shout it's i feel i feel my evil because i'm the baddest motherfucker on the baddest field on the battlefield bang like just stuff like that they kind of get your like you have to have that kind of mindset you know going into it so it's like kind of like let prep you know kind of talk you know whether you're you know prepping just to push off you know i think that's kind of like the most tense moments when you're sitting there and like you're supposed to be getting three hours of sleep but one you know

where you're going you know going into neuroste and i was like that right you know just knowing the history of neurostean and how you know traditionally it produces some pretty heavy intense firefights you know i should have been sleeping but i was more or less just sitting there going over scenarios in my head you know if this happens i'll do this if this happened like just constantly playing in my mind what could potentially happen. And those moments that are right at the edge, like I said, like being in the left opening door, you know, or coming off a tail ramp of a helicopter when you're expecting him in enemy fire, did you find yourself engaging self-talk? Did you find yourself just like shutting down just like, like just shutting down completely and just engaging in the

mission? Yeah, just quiet. Like the brain just kind of goes into like a silent mode. You know, And like, that's why, you know, sometimes it's hard to remember, you know, some of these small, minute details because you're in that you've kind of just gone blank to what's natural. Right. You know, and your ability to kind of turn that on and turn that off. And, you know, we kind of talk about veterans and, you know, that mental aspect of, you know, what veterans go through. I think sometimes it's coping with that, you know, the guys that come off team for so long that they're so used to go into that to that zone. they do that in the civilian world or this, this life where they don't have to and kind of get yourself into some sticky situations

and trouble and it kind of moves down the bad road. Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, we've talked a lot on the show about, you know, being in that moment when you're the aggressor or when you're being aggressed upon. But there's a totally different mindset. Like I said, like when we look at the veterans in World War II coming off those landing vehicles, they weren't going to shoot anybody from the landing vehicle, right? Like they were they were just there to survive getting off the landing vehicle and you mentioned it talking about the helicopter like you have no control whether you get off that helicopter or not is up to whether some indige you know some Taliban has a PK trained on that door as you're getting off.

And those are moments that I think I feel like are a lot harder for veterans to deal with in hindsight than the moments when you've got your gun up and you have a chance to actually. fight back. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Like I said, those, those, you start thinking of those poetic ending moments, you know, before you kind of go into that blank kind of stare. You know, I don't know if you guys, did you guys see a lot of guys yawning too? Yeah. Like, I think that was the coping mechanism. Sleeping, sleeping before the mission or trying to sleep. Yeah. And the yawning, I think, one, it really released distress, but two, it's, I think it's also like, in the indicative of them disassociating from the from the actual effects. It's like I'm bored.

Like they've convinced themselves. We convince ourselves that it's no big deal. It's nothing. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Can we talk about your second deployment to Afghanistan and how that differed from the first one? Yeah. So the first one, I kind of lived with the team the entire time. So the second one was vastly different. So I was, you know, based out of Bogram, you know, there. And so what I did was I only really supported like level two missions, you know. So as, you know, the six months kind of went on, we had missions throughout the country.

They'd look and say, okay, we have these assets. Let's go place them for these certain missions. And so that was a difficult deployment in the sense that I didn't have that time to build rapport with a team. You know, so, you know, I talk about going to Nauristan. I remember I was about to go home. Like I was about to rotate out. And I was within, you know, a couple weeks of leaving, you know, and they're like, hey, we're going to send you the nerve stand for a few weeks.

And I show up and I remember the ODA just kind of being like, why are you here? Like, what are you going to do? And you have to go through the, it was like every few weeks I was having to explain myself the story over and over again versus like when you're living with them, you know, a team, you do it once in your end. I was having to do it every single mission. So that was the frustrating part was like you didn't feel like you really belong to a team on that one. You know, you were just trying to, you're just like a higher guy that shows up and then you leave after things, you know, finished and you're not there to clean up any of that mess kind of thing, you know, and that kind of sucked, you know.

And so while you're there, you try to just build rapport as much you can, create some contacts, you know, and try to stay in touch with with guys, you know, after you leave in case maybe something, you get a second mission or something, you go out. out there, you know, and so you try to stay in contact with them and bring gifts, you know, so I always, I'd always bring tobacco, uh, from Bogram, you know, try to try to bring us some things like, hey, I'm thinking about you guys. And I know I got it good. I'm sleeping in bogram, you know, some days. So, um, we try to just kind of buy my way in at some points. Which could, which can be really effective, like showing up with a bunch of school or like, like we'll go a long way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so those, Those missions, too, as you show up.

And, you know, they have their level two, but you're there a few weeks. And so they start thinking, well, how else can we employ you? And we talked a little bit earlier, but I was kind of asked to jump in this rubber duck and fully across the river. And so I had like a little sonar sensor that could give me depth recordings across the river. And so the goal was to pull me across as I take recordings, well, essentially I could then build a, an underwater profile of subsurface. So if I know that, now I understand,

you know, if I'm going to build a bridge where I can put some supports and things like that. So, hey, like, can you do this for me?

Because if I can build a bridge, that allows us to extend the green zone and kind of bring some more people in and build some rapport with the locals. And I'm like, okay, well, what's on the other side of river now?

And they're like, yeah, we don't know what's on the other side of river right now. You know, and I'm like, God, like, is this a good idea?

Like, I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not. You know, and it's like, sure, man, you'll be fine. Like, you'll be fine, you know. And, you know, you're kind of doing like these kind of weird out-of-the-box type type scenarios there just to, all right, man, like, we'll run it and kind of see what happens. So, but that one not near as impactful when it comes to, like, firefights and takes and stuff. You know, we got one in Neuristan, one other small one, you know, take some pot shots. but it wasn't fight as intense as that first appointment.

Could you tell us about the operation where you emplaced the environmental sensor for avalanches? Yeah, yeah. And so we kind of bring this all kind of full circle where we talked earlier about South Tees bringing in that environmental piece. And so, you know, in between missions there at Bogram, you know, we're thinking, how else can we be impactful? well, the conventional army was running resupply routes through the Slang Pass to go up and resupply some of the Fob just to the north there.

Well, in the wintertime, the Slang Pass has the most avalanches of anywhere else in the world. Like, it's just a heavy avalanche zone. And so most of us were avalanche certified, so we start thinking, like, well, if I can understand the temperatures and the gradients of the snowpack, I should be able to at least give up fairly accurate estimate on if that snowpack could slide or not. And so I remember we contacted a company out of Texas to build like this 45-foot tower that had these sensors on it that as it snowed, I'm getting temperatures, I'm getting ground readings and things like that.

So they get it shipped over. And I'm pretty positive that like this is probably some dudes in a garage like welding this thing together. Like, you know, and we get it. We put together. And so we throw it on a trailer and just drive. it up, you know, into the mountains. And it's kind of crazy.

Like, here we are, like, just putting this tower up. And then we connect it via GPS and then take it back to Boggham. And then we give the conventional weather, you know, HQ there, say, hey, like, log in here. And now you guys can actually get readings here. And then you can use us. Once the snowpack comes, we'll kind of help you understand what you're looking at. You know, and so that was kind of a weird mission,

crazy mission, you know, and the fact, like, we're putting this tower up and it's like, it almost like looks like Iwo Jima, but it's a bunch of weather guys putting up an avalanche sensor, you know, it's really kind of walking it up. So. Did it work? Yeah, yeah. So it worked. And, you know, it was cool, too, because it gave me a chance to kind of, I tick the turp and kind of went into a couple different, like, little entities there up in the mountains, too.

because the Afghans, they had their own weathermen. Like they have, you know, they're trained weathermen. They have people up there that are doing observations and stuff. And so it allowed me to kind of walk in there with the TURP and like kind of figure out some of that historical type data, you know, that's helping the conventional guys. So I kind of took that back and said, hey, here's some notes they gave me about how they're forecasting up in the mountains, you know, if you ever, you know, have any conventional guys going to drive up through there. Trefs, out of curiosity, because you mentioned that you were part of this nascent or baby special operations weather technician program, right? Before there was a pipeline, before they really knew what their value added was going to be.

Your first deployment, you get a Bronze Star with Valor. Then you go back home. How do you see during this time, how do you see the SOWT training change, their mission profile change? Did they come to you about stuff about what do we need to do to bring value added? How does all that working out on the back end? Yeah, when I got back, I mean, it was it was constant as far as like commanders wanting to talk to you, you know, squadron commanders from the STS wanted to talk to you. You know, that was not that I had a problem with it.

Like I didn't mind sharing the story and like my after action, but it was like almost like exhausted. sometimes because you became the person that was like any time there was like talk about medical stuff since I was involved in a heavy situation and involved medical training hey what's your you know what do you think about going to this medical school like what do you think about doing this for this next rotation and you know you started getting asked these things and you're like I mean I'm just a staff sergeant here like I you know I give my opinion but I'm not saying I got the right answers but they use that a lot so they you know South Keys we went to a lot of good medical training, especially out in Vegas, you know, I feel like I'm shouting out

these schools. Like, I'm not going to expect a check back, but joint tactical medicine, which is out in Vegas, was an awesome course. One, because not from the medical side, but also, like, they'd hire, you know, some opt-for to come in. They owned a mountain with some steel on it, so they had a downed helo, so you could run a full mission profile out of there. And, like, I learned so much when it come to trauma, uh, just from that school. You know, Like we're not PJs by by no means. Right. You know, battlefield trauma like I was fairly good.

But so at what point are they trying to basically turn you guys into a mini PJ, many CCT, like many like there are they trying to make you jacks of all trade? Do they lose mission focus or do they, are they trying to find a spot for you? Yeah, I think that's where they're at now actually. You know, I think, you know, now they're, I think that's absolutely. stock in general, you know, like Afghanistan isn't happening anymore. Like, so now J-TAC missions aren't the same. Like, everybody's kind of looking for what's the next thing going to be.

And so I think that's why they shifted to this reconnaissance piece because not only is it physical, you know, reconnaissance, it's, you know, cyber reconnaissance. So they're getting trainings when it comes to cyber stuff and, you know, stuff that I'd never had any exposure to. You know, so I think everybody's trying to find that, that next niche of what are we going to own, you know, on the battlefield here. And where we currently are in the current situation, I think that's a smart move. Like, they're looking for the new battlefield and trying to, you know, become experts in

in a field that's going to be, you know, relevant there. But are there any more weather technicians? I mean, are they, do the guys still go to the meteorological school and? No, nope, they don't even go to the school anymore. they'll go to like an observer school. Like they'll become like observer certified, but it's not as an intense. Like you're not, you know,

that's not your primary focus anymore. You know, like so you have the capability, but that's, that's not your primary. Well, one more deployment story. You talked about Neuristan, a time where there was a low ceiling that might have limited air coverage. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that because I think that lends a little bit more insight

into this career field. Yeah, so, you know, for that mission, you know, we kind of talked about sometimes you hit it and sometimes you don't. You know, it's like zero to hero. And so we had kind of, you know, infilled in the nurse stand and we'd been on target for, you know, six-ish hours or so. And we had castor, we had a 130 overhead and we were in an active tick and some ceilings rolled in to where the 130, you know, some of the other assets were starting to want to push off because they just couldn't see anything. And so we had to kind of make a call of one, do we want to keep them on station a little bit longer to see if the ceiling's past? And two, how's this going to affect our ex-mill? You know, because we were down in a valley, the valley was going to fill up with fog potentially.

And so I had to kind of make a call there on the ground. So we, you know, that was probably one of the few times where I got to just do traditional weather kind of forecasting, you know. So it's like I'm understanding, you know, where the predominant wind flows from. I'm understanding it is my getting upflow. updraft where this is going to stay or am I getting this across the mountain that's going to create some down draft where it's going to dissipate or push off and so I made the call like hey we're good we're probably got about a 30 minute window here before we start to clear out again you know it's kind of made that call so I'm communicating that to the comeback controller and the

j-tuck on the ground who's communicating to the air asset and so kind of made that decision and you know kind of worked out my favor I look smart you know there in the moment and you know thankful for that and you know I just had to carry that heavy rock that wasn't wet that night because it wasn't raining in my in my ruff deck. And what was the next assignment for you after that deployment? Yeah, so I got back there in 2011, going into 2012, I got assigned to go be an instructor at the STTS. So go back to the five level school. So when I got there, obviously had these two really recent deployments, you know, with a lot of relevant. then see when it comes to the school with the full mission profile piece so you know got assigned

to the back portion of training you know so like the school set up to where we got pre-dive they got you know one two and three and so i was like or t which is like basically operational readiness training so like you've you've gone through all like the basic stuff like you understand how to do stuff now let's go put it all together so we have like a mock fob we're running full mission profiles like we're understanding like small unit tactics like how to take down a compound and you're going through cqb stuff and so that was the focus for my last you know probably three years was you know teaching that and you know when you're doing that one you're just rehearsing all this stuff you know but you're also learning more and more you know you're getting different perspectives come in you know because

you work with combat controllers and PJs and like you're you're understanding everybody's you know, value on the X and understanding different perspectives. So even though I might have done it a certain way with, you know, the Marsalk team or whatever, like they do it differently with the ODA. And so, you know, operationally wise, like I felt like I got better. But I got to a point there towards the end to where I looked at like my career. And I started having like think about career moves from there. And so after about 11 years,

I realized like you know what all the fun stuff I was probably done you know like there was a new crop behind me that were you know going to get the good you know spots at fobs like I was going to be more of that admin type role and I just didn't know if I wanted to do that you know it's kind of to a point where it's like I feel like I had gotten

if you ask like guys like what do you want on your career like as far as like action wise like yeah I feel like that bucket yeah you know like there's some guys they go their whole career just wanting to get into, you know, one firefighter do one certain thing. And it's like, I got to do that. And I didn't think it was going to have a chance to do any more of it, you know, so it was just kind of time to go. My son was about to be born. And we started talking about those moments where you're sitting there thinking to yourself, like it was harder and harder to turn on that, that blank stare. You know, I remember doing a free fall and

kind of climbing the altitude and started thinking about, well, what happened? Like, parachute doesn't open. Like what's, you know, got a son at home now, you know, and sort of having those kind of thoughts. I was like, when that happened, I was like, I was, I was ready to go. Yeah, ready to move on with life. You know, this, this chapter's over. And what, what was that transition process like? And where did you kind of land after, after the Air Force? Yeah. So it's kind of serendipitous the way it happened. Like, I didn't have a plane. Like, I was just going to go to school, max out my GI Bill, finish my undergrad and just kind of figure it out. Two weeks before I left, I got called into an instructor's office.

He was a GS employee, but he was a prior PJ. And the Air Force was getting ready to contract the special operations development program. They were going to bring guys that had just separated on and then train recruits that are getting ready to go to assessment selection. So your primary purpose is to, one, help them get in shape. but two just help them mentally like understand the weight of what they're trying to do you know and kind of talk to them through that process like how to survive certain situations mentally um so he called me and obviously hey there's a contract out for this i don't know what company is going to win it but they're going to be looking for guys to kind of fill these slots you know and i have a contact at one company if you want me to put in a word you know and it paid fairly well and i don't say that sounds like a pretty easy job like i could do that like give a couple past tests and run some development sessions. So what I did was I jumped on LinkedIn. I contacted that content,

but I also found out the other three companies that were in the running. And I contacted all three and basically like position myself with all three of them. So whoever won, like I had a job. You know, so the contract, you know, the company A1, they call me up a couple of days later like, hey,

we got the job in Kansas City if you want it. And I was like, sure, start and kind of that's the way it worked. And so I did that for seven years. Um, and finished my undergrad while I was doing it. I got my MBA, uh, also while I was doing it. So it's perfect for me, like to raise a young family, finish school professionally and kind of got to a point where I was like, okay, like now it's time to like now grow professionally. Like I need to go beyond this contracting gig. And, um, that's where I reached out my buddy,

Zach who, you know, was an account executive. And, you know, I wanted to understand business, just finished my MBA. So I was like, I want to get into business. And what better way to understand business than to understand how to generate revenue, you know? And so I kind of contact him. And he was, you know, I was kind of unsure of like, that's the route I wanted to go. And he was like, dude, like, sales and what I do is so much what we did in the military. So he was a combat controller.

And he's like, imagine, like, you show up on a fob and you have to build rapport instantly and show value. He's like, that's selling. He's like, you have a solution to a problem. You help them solve problems, you know, and he's like, and then you build rapport while you're doing it. You already know this. Yeah.

Yeah. And so I just had to think of it just a little different way and, you know, kind of broke in as an account executive, like never was an SDR, never was BDR, and, you know, kind of figured it out, you know, and kind of put the things I knew from the military, the things I had learned throughout my life and kind of put it into action. You know, that's the one thing I will say about military. is, you know, one, there's so many things that you learn, but you just, there's not names form in the military.

Right. It's just become second nature, right? And so you learn this stuff and you just realize that's not common. And then two, like the military does a great job of like making you believe you're only worth a certain dollar amount. Right. Right. So you're at E7.

You can be the best E7 there is on the planet. You're going to get paid as all the other E7s. Right. You know, and so you believe you're only. worth a certain amount, you know, and so, like, making this transition and, like, changing your compensation is, like, eye-opening because you're like, wow, like, you do have the skills to do this and, like, transitioning military members, like, you know, hopefully, you know, if somebody was listening to this transitioning, they want to just talk transition, like, I'm always open to

do that, you know, helping them navigate that, like, how to look at it, how to navigate the market, you know, how to break in. Like, I broke into where I'm at, like I said with no SD, like no experience. I never sold a thing in my life. You know, and I broke in as an account executive and I'm selling, you know,

software and it's not very common, you know, but I think you go to it with a certain approach and, you know, Zach was, you know, good to me and giving me a good playbook

and helping me and hopefully I'm able to help a few other people kind of do that, you know, guys that are looking to do something. And it's interesting because, obviously when you're in the military, like building rapport, you know,

so you can do your job, It's not a metric, right? It's not something that goes on your review, on your, like, enlisted review, your valuation, whatever, you know. But I know that, like, Jack mentions when he was leaving the military as a former ranger in SF, like, the career council said, you'll make a good security. Yeah. And it's a lot of these intangibles that you build in this community,

and the military in general. But particularly in this community, like you sat there and sold your position. You built value, right? You show up as a weatherman, as a weather technician. And people are like, well, all these dudes are shooters and operators and they're looking at you. But you find the places where you can add value and you focus on that. And, you know, it's a very interesting idea in the, you know, in the work, in the work, in the, the realm of veteran transition, the veterans don't have any appreciation at all a lot of times

for what skills they actually developed, that you can't code onto a resume or onto a, you know, that the career counselor is going to be able to point out for you. Just the coping, you know, like this, your ability to adapt to situations and like control the controllable, like how many times like you're in the military, like, that's just what you do. Right. All the times you think of like the things you didn't control. where it's like that's just the way it is like you move on about your life that's not come like people aren't like that right you know and it's something that sometimes it's hard to teach um and so

i think having that level mindset having that you know what we're doing doesn't have that much weight right like i've done stuff with a lot of weight like my life's not on the line like i'm sitting in this office right now this is where i'm i work from home and it's like this yeah it's important like I want to do well, but nobody's life is in danger right now, you know, and having that ability to just remain calm or it's like other people that kind of freak out and like the moment gets bigger than it needs to be, you know, so I think that's an asset, like these, you know, military members and veterans need to remember that, you know, it's like some of that stuff, like you can't teach.

Yeah. You got it. How do you manage that in the civilian world and that? when you say that, you know, the consequences aren't the same, right? But then you're dealing with civilians who, you know, the hair's on fire because they feel like these consequences are the same. How do you manage that without telling them to like shut the fuck up? You don't know what you're talking about. Like nothing here is real.

Because to them it is. How do you balance that with your previous experience and knowing that, you know, breathe through this and everything will be okay because nobody's going to die regardless of what happened in this environment. Yeah. Yeah, obviously, not going to tell them, you know, what you're truly thinking probably in your head. Right.

But I think it's that unwavering tone, you know, tonality in your voice. Like sometimes that's all it takes is like they're talking up here at a high level. And it's like, they just need an unwavering tone of like, let's take a breath. Like, we're okay. reassurance, you know, sometimes helps a lot, you know, to help them kind of reset, you know, and that's an area where I think I'm thankful to where I was at, to where at Sprout Social is I get to kind of help, you know, some individuals like that that, you know, start to worry about performance, start to worry about things like that that are just sometimes out of their control and just to help

them reset, you know, so it's like I'm almost, I'm going back to those weather days where I'm finding the value outside of my day-to-day job. Like, yeah, my day-to-day, is to sell a product, but, you know, the other things that I bring to a team, you know, is to share that experience and kind of help reps calm and chill out. But yeah, never getting too high, never get too

low, you know, kind of thing. And I think you bring that and it's just contagious. Yeah. Travis, man, this has been like an awesome interview, and I really appreciate you coming on the show tonight. Are there any, like, final thoughts

or anything of that I failed to cover or anything I failed to ask that you'd really like to hit up before we go? No, no, I really appreciate it. You know, if I could leave it, you know, any part of the words. Like, I think it's just around that transition for veterans. Like, you know, just want to advocate for that. Like if there's, you know, ever anything I can do where people want to reach out to me just to talk about the transition, anything I do to help them, you know,

always going to be a veteran advocate for that. And, you know, try to help them any way I can. and just try to give back to the community. You know, again, I want to also shout out some of the teams I was on. You know, the Morsop team, you know, I don't have any products, but Michael Gobleski, you know, wrote two books about that, you know, so if we want to check those out, support Michael. Those books are called Level Zero Heroes and Dagger 2-2.

So it's a two-book collection, you know, so shout out him, you know, but, you know, just all the guys that were there and, you know, men and women, you know, kind of understand. those everyday trials and tribulations you go through. You know, everybody's heads are ups and downs and, you know, we're going to let everybody know, like, you're not alone, you know, like kind of fight some of this epidemic of veteran suicide, things like that, like check on your battle buddy, things like that.

So I just want to really highlight that and just leave it at that. Like, let's all put our arms around each other, like we're all in us together. Any websites, social media, or anything you want to plug before we roll out? Yeah. So, you know, if you're looking to join the Air Force, specifically to go into AFSOC, you know, it would be a combat control, repair, rescuing, and CACP, special reconnaissance. Great podcast out there called One's Ready.

You know, so shout out to Trent Sieg Miller, prior Souti, getting ready to retire. You know, he's burning that podcast where they do a great job describing two candidates, how they can prepare for the pipeline, what the pipeline's like. You know, so if you're in that position where you're just thinking about doing that, I would suggest you you pop over there to ones ready and give them. So that's that's ones ready on YouTube and the podcast platforms? Yep. And then what's his name again?

Trent Siegmiller. Okay, great. And I want to give a quick shout out myself to Casa Carabello cigars. My preferred cigars that I'm often speaking on this program, casacarabello.com is where you can go to get them. Awesome company. Travis, thank you so much for joining us tonight. Yeah, I appreciate it.

And, you know, had a good time. Next time I have to, you know, get a good little sip like you guys are having. Maybe we can do it live and in person. We would love that. Come down here, man. You're welcome anytime. We would love that. Have a cigar and a drink with us.

Yeah, absolutely. More than welcome. Yeah, we got a question. Yeah. What's up? Wait, is this patron or? Okay. We got a viewer question.

Scott G. asks, do you utilize statistics, hourly data, or machine learning at all to predict the weather? Yeah. You know, definitely those traditional forecasters are going to be using, you know, a lot of data and analytics. You know, they'll do that, you know, simulated forecast, but also to rely a lot on a skew. You know, the weather balloons. I don't know if you guys ever seen, like, the old joke of like the weather guy with the red balloon, right? Try to get that rising atmospheric, you know, so a lot of different things that I used to forecast, but yeah, traditional guys definitely would use, you know, data analytics, a lot of AI, things like that. All right. We got one more. Okay. So I mean, I think we have one more. We have one more. What's that? We have one more question. We have one more question.

Any thoughts on the concept of generating value through presence? Wow. Okay. That's deep. Yeah, all right. Talk about a heavy one. I think when you create the value through present, like you think about this concept. I think how we kind of ended the show here, we talked about that unwavering kind of tonality.

I think when you look at leadership, you look at all the great leaders, like none of them ever got too high and they never got too low. You know, they always remained the same, whether it's like, you know, I think of like all the battlefield leaders are, I was around. You know, when I'm in the midst of like the most intense firefight, you didn't see pain.

Like the eyes and like the toneality and their voice never changed. And so I think when you think about presence, that's how I would envision, you know, that question. Like how you can create presence just, you know, and yeah, I'm kind of going off on a tangent there. No, you're right. No, we're we've talked about this both with all. officers. And also we've talked about J-Tax and CCTs and how, no matter how dire the situation was, how when they're talking on the radio, you would never know that they weren't sitting in a park on a Sunday afternoon. That maintaining that presence, we absolutely understand what you're saying.

Yeah. Yeah. Can you believe that? you listen to some of those recordings and it's it's surreal because yeah like you would like you described it perfectly like they could just be sitting in a park chilling pet their dog yeah like they're in the most intense firefight uh that you can imagine yeah and and it does a lot one you know it and it's the same with an officer or senior enlisted like panic is contagious when they're maintaining that like it's it's sort of a medic right whether somebody's calm or somebody's panicked, it influences everybody around them. And to have that level, to bring it down, to be able to maintain that sort of cadence

and the, I guess, security and sincerity, people glom onto that. Yeah. And like, you know, kind of going down the same, you know, path here, we talk about culture. You know, we talk about how things are contagious, like how that's contagious. I think another thing is, like, the trust. You know, we talk about the veteran community, like what you bring. You know, I think that the basis of a good culture, you know, the baseline is trust. And I look back of what was your AAR room like, like after action room like after a mission?

Right. The door shuts. There wasn't rank at all. Like you're free to call out what you want to call out. Sometimes you take harsh criticism. Sometimes you take praise. But you never left the room being like Dave. I can't believe Dave said that about.

me. Right. It was an open forum and I think that's missing sometimes and a lot of like non-military cultures is like everybody's too scared to say what they feel. Right. And you get a lot of water cooler talk. Right. Right. You're in a meeting and you know, you don't like what you hear but instead of saying anything, you're going to wait and go to the water cooler and you're going to chat with your friends and say, well, I would have something like no, you wouldn't have like. Yeah. And I think if we were less afraid of hurting feelings and getting our feelings hurt, we'd probably produce a lot more high-performing cultures outside of the military. I think that's extremely true.

I mean, yeah. So this Friday, we're going to have Louis Rudal on the show, CIA case officer, who is, I believe, Chief of Ops in Iraq. And Travis, thank you so much for joining us tonight. Yeah, thanks for spending a Friday with us. We deeply appreciate it. Jinks. It's a Wednesday.

Monday or yeah shit Wednesday Wednesday Friday Wednesday yeah we're all losers thanks thanks for spending your Wednesday with us I'm I'm fucked up yeah no really thank you Travis thank you for sharing your insights into this this career field that is often misunderstood and not really covered in these types of podcasts these vet bro podcasts don't necessarily talk about the support guys and I think that's to our detriment so well not even support like you're you're you're your direct action in your own way. Yeah, yeah, he did become that. It's an absolute enabler to, you know, to like what's,

to what's happening. I mean, like, you're not support when you're pulling somebody off. Yeah, true. Off a hill because they've been shot, you know. Right. Oh. Yeah. Well, I appreciate it, fellas.

And, you know, was a pleasure and an honor to be here. And, you know, anytime you want to chat, just hit me up. Yeah. right on Travis thank you man we'll talk to you next time let us know if you're coming through the city would be happy to have you here absolutely cheers fellas all right take care man thanks for ready