The Team House - Special Ops Cultural Support Teams (CST) | Sam Juan | Ep. 139

Episode Date: April 2, 2022

After immigrating to America, Samantha Juan joined the U.S. Army with limited options since she was not yet a U.S. citizen and served as a cook until she was able to transition to being a signals intelligence analyst attached to the NSA. Next, she attended the selection course for Special Operations Command's female Cultural Support Team (CST) which saw her deployed to Afghanistan in support of Navy SEALs. Check out Sam's website at https://www.the1samjuan.com Today's Sponsors: Chill Boys Undies https://www.CHILLBOYS.com/ Save 15% on your first order by using our discount code TEAM15  And keep the boys cool! https://www.CHILLBOYS.com/ For all bonus content including: -2 bonus episodes per month  -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon!👇 https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Team House merch:  https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963 Social Media:  The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Dave’s Twitter:  https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21 Team House Discord: https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here: https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links): https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample Want to sponsor the show? Email: 👇 [e-mail] #specialoperations #theteamhouse #cstBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

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with free support services to help them on their parenting journey. Everyone deserves someone they can turn to for help with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. Hey folks, I just want to take a minute to ask you to go in rate this podcast, let the Teamhouse know how you think we're doing, go and rate us on whatever platform you're listening to this on, whether it's iTunes, or Spotify or whatever else, those ratings really help us out. And we really appreciate the feedback to let us know what you like and what you don't like. And if you do like the team house and you'd like to support us, go check out our Patreon page

and you can actually support the stream and well as get access to our bonus segments and bonus episodes. Yeah, if you're going to give us a great review, please do. And if you're going to give us a not-so-good review, why don't you just send us an email and we'll talk about it. Special Operations. Covert Ops, espionage, the Team House, with your host, Jack Murphy, and David Park. Hi, everyone, welcome to The Team House. This is episode 139. I'm Jack Murphy, here with my co-host, David Park. Tonight on the show, we have Samantha Wan. She is a former Army CST, the cultural support team, which was a element that was stood up sort of ad hoc for the war,

which was an effort to integrate women into special operations teams and help use their capabilities. And we'll talk much more in depth about that with Sam, but just to give you the 100,000-foot view, that's who Sam is, and that's what we're going to be talking about tonight, about her life and her military career and post-service career and transition out of the military.

So Sam, thank you so much for joining us. tonight. We really appreciate it. I appreciate being here. Thank you for having me. Yeah, absolutely. And we're seeing your paintings in the background, I take it? Yes. This one right here was my more recent one, but I completed this one at the start of the pandemic. Okay, cool. I definitely want to talk a little bit about that too. So, Sam, usually the way we start these interviews off is asking about our guest's superhero origin story. If you got bit by a radioactive spider or kind of how that came about. Can you tell us a little bit about, you know, where you grew up, your upbringing and sort of that path that led you into the military eventually?

Yeah, no problem. Okay, so I was born and raised in Bahrain. I immigrated to the United States when I was 14, moved to California to start high school. My parents are Filipino and they were about 50 years old when they adopted me when I was about a week old. Went to high school in California. As soon as I graduated, I joined the Army. I don't know if you guys were in as early as I was, but the cold calling, the recruited cold calling to your house, that's how they bated me to get money for school

and get my citizenship since I was still an immigrant when I joined the Army. So had you ever thought about the military prior to that? Did your parents, like, have naval, Any service background or anything like that? I actually didn't know that my dad served 22 years than the Philippine Navy prior to saying, like, hey, dad, I think I'm going to join the U.S. Army. But, yeah, he was super supportive and thought it was a great idea, of course, with his prior background. But before that, I didn't know that he had served.

But you never really considered the military until you got that cold call? No. No, I didn't know much about it. I really just looked at it as a way to, at the time, getting money for school, but not to completely go dark as soon as we start this conversation, but I was abused when I was a kid. So I saw it as a way to kind of get away from that.

Okay. Yeah. And then, so when you decided that you would join the Army, me like what did that look like for you to just go down the office and did they like present you with all the different jobs that you could do or sign your life away kid yeah well because i was an immigrant i really didn't have many options you know i i had the as vab scores but they gave me food service and truck driver and so i went with food service because i thought it was a skill i could use um outside of being the army and then when i joined four years later i got my citizenship in Germany, actually, and then switched over to signals intelligence analysts.

Okay. Can I ask you a little bit about kind of like the subject of culture and culture clash? Because I just think it's really interesting. Coming from Bahrain, adopted by Filipino parents, then coming to the west coast of the United States, then joining the Army, which is its own subculture. And you just mentioned being stationed in Germany. What was that like for you as a young country? woman bouncing between these different cultures?

I think growing up in Bahrain, it's a lot more diverse than people may think. I went to an international school. A lot of my classmates were from, like, Great Britain, you know, Ireland, Nepal, Pakistani, like a bunch of different cultures within the school system. So it wasn't too much of a culture shock other than the things that kids were into or the music that we listen to, the shows, that's what really was different when I moved to the States. Interesting.

Yeah. I think it helped a lot, especially being in the military, like having that background. My parents like to travel a lot. So I lived in the Philippines for maybe a couple months. We'd go to the States to, like, visit family every year, but didn't move to live permanently until I was 14. And so the Army represented for you a way out of a bad situation.

at home, also a pathway to citizenship. Yes. Oh, I didn't know that at the time until my recruiter said, like, hey, this is also another opportunity or option for you if you decide to join. Yeah, I thought it was a good idea at the time. So how did you like culinary? Food service? It's a fancy word for slap and hash. I said, I promised her we were at least somewhat professionals. I'm going to use big words like that. You know, it's a completely different world from military intelligence.

I think being in food service, the camaraderie is so much better within, like, the chow hall. Because your hours are crazy, you really have to, like, stick together versus when I was in military intelligence. Everyone's really smart, but also very, like, introverted. So I'm kind of like a hybrid there. So I really liked food service for that aspect. And there were culinary competitions that were really fun, seeing that I have a creative background. I got to do those. So I don't know if you've ever partake or seen them at all.

I don't know if many people are aware of it, but like food service is one of the hardest jobs in the military. It really is. I say that without. The schedule is crazy. Yeah. Yeah. It was 12 days on, two days off, 12 days on, two days off. Holy shit.

And the hours are insane, right? The hours are... It's terrible. Yeah. Yeah. It's terrible. But you got stationed over at Germany. Like, what units were you assigned to?

Where when, you know, what was this job? I mean, you were literally the cook? Yeah. So, Manhattan, Germany, Coleman Barracks, 28 trans battalion. I don't think it exists anymore. But I was there from 2003 to 2007. Yeah. Okay.

And so now we're also at the time frame where we're getting into the global war on terror. You lived through all of that and seeing the army begin to change. Was that something, I mean, even though you were in culinary services, food services, I mean, was that a real thing? Like, we're at war now? Yeah, definitely. Being stationed in Germany, I mean, that's kind of like the stopping zone from people

who are going to get deployed, going to Iraq and Afghanistan. And then I also worked at the Coleman confinement. So I worked at the military prison. So not prisoners of war, but military. Soldiers. Yes. Yeah. Interesting.

And why were most of the people, I mean, I don't know if you came in contact with them or if you even know, but like why were most of the people there that were in military prison in Germany? Why were they there? Sure. Since I was a cook, our coworkers were, or the people that helped. this within the child hall were prisoners. So most of them I would say with drugs or domestic abuse. And then there were some crazy ones like killing and child stuff and stuff like that. That's wild. So what drew you to signals intelligence? Obviously you had the language for it or language skills.

But like what made you kind of select that? So when I actually got out in 2007, a short break of six months and came back in because I didn't want to be a cook as civilian. So I did that really quick. So when I came back in, the options were a little bit better now that I had my citizenship. And so signals intelligence analysts stationed in Hawaii, it really was a no-brainer that time. Yeah. And what was the training like that for? So Goodfellow Air Force Base for six months, you know, yeah, it was Marines, Air Force, Army.

It was really, really, really challenging. I'm actually very surprised that I passed. But I enjoyed my time there in Hawaii. That place was amazing. Yeah. I was saying Hawaii. And then when did you, like when did the whole idea of CST and, and, you, you, you know, you know, when did you hear about that and what led you to that?

Sure. So the announcement for the program came out in 2010, late, I believe, 2010 or early 2011. And it was really a very vague poster. And it was a woman with a rucksack on and it was like, become part of history. I didn't have any experience with special operations at the time. Didn't know much about it.

I mean, I just finished Intel school. But my platoon sergeant or my first, sergeant set brought me into the office when you saw a poster and was like hey I just came from brag like you would be perfect for this you definitely should try out submit your packet you know I'll write you up a letter of recommendation all that good stuff and so without really knowing what it was I was like sure get me out of here like I'll I'll see what it's about and I think the less information that they put out about it made it more intriguing right I didn't sack myself out before going kind of thing.

So it had sort of a mystique to it. Nobody really knew what it was. Yeah, I don't think they knew what it was. Yeah, they knew they needed this capability within their teams. They didn't know how to feel that. I have met some of the women that were in CST1, that it was more like, voluntold than volunteer. And there wasn't a strict or a curriculum yet, right,

a training curriculum. them. So I'm fortunate that, you know, I waited a little bit for them to kind of figure out what they needed from us or, you know, how to train us up. You know, and it was still developing when I went through, but at least not the very first volunteer group that I, yeah, they really put themselves out there because they didn't know what. So do you have any idea of what number selection course this was for the CSTs and, you know, what you're, was that that you went to the course? 2011. So I was in the very first structured.

Okay, cool. Yeah. Okay. So tell us about that hitting the ground at Bragging, going through CST selection. So at SFAS, right, it's zero dark 30, whatever. 130 of us show up, I believe, the first day. And about, I think, five or six days later, you know, going through all the tests. I think one thing that's I've heard that's different from SFAS and what we went through is that they don't, the instructors, they don't talk.

They don't yell at you. They don't say that you're doing bad or good. They just watch. And so you don't know if you're messing out or if you're doing the right thing. But five days later, I think 32 of us graduated. Wow. Out of how many? 130.

And what were those five days like for you? Once upon a time, I used to be in great shape. So I think physically, as long as I didn't have to worry about that, what mentally got me was the lack of feedback. We're split into five teams or 10 teams, I believe, 10 or 12 females each. And you have to learn how to lead. and learn how to follow and not step on anyone's toes and all this good stuff with like a bunch of type A females.

It was interesting. And they had you doing land nav and team events and things like that? Yes, like I think one of the oddest tests was like read a newspaper to some kind of like log carrying, some kind of obstacle course, and then you run back and then you are tested on what the article was about certain like facts in the article and like you're absolutely exhausted i have no idea what i just read you know things like that um and i don't know if that's normal for s fas or you know any other selection but i think yeah some unique tests for sure what what were the uh other women like

that were in the selection course um what were their kind of backgrounds did you guys start to get to know any of them and start to um i don't know through through the kind of like the joe network we call it i I don't know, through Roomint, were you beginning to divine anything about what this program was actually about? During selection, didn't really have much time to talk. And I think it would, we were too nervous to really like start chit-chatting. Very basic information with exchange names, duty stations, branch. A lot of officers at first class, a lot. I think that was the first time there was an Air Force major, a lieutenant colonel.

She actually made it through, but because she was so high-ranking, they put her as like staff instead, which is really sad. When you first arrived at Prague, did they like get you all together and brief you on this is what you're going to do? Like this is the job. This is what we need you to do. Oh, no. No. I still don't think they knew what it was when we were going through selection. There was none of that.

That's fascinating. It was like first day you're going to get a time rook, your PT test, and then the next day, they'll tell us, okay, this is the task for the day. And then that night, we're going to go through these drills. Like, I don't want to say that they were making it up as they went, but I don't think it was still like a structured curriculum yet. It's interesting to me that it's 2000. 11. Pretty deep into the war at this point. Yeah, I mean, we've been at it for a minute or two.

And they've brought out these women together, but they're still not quite sure what they, what they need them for. Like, we know we need them. We just don't know what. Yeah. And I know that information was just not shared, right? But like, you know, at the time, we're just told to do tasks and we're evaluated. And so once you were done with selection, what happened next? So if you make it through selection, you'll go back to your unit and then come back for the six-week train-up. And that was language immersion, tactics, little land-knap, cultural classes is for sure, working with your TIRP, a bunch of stuff like that. And now did they finally reveal behind the curtain what the hell your job is going to be? So I think not yet.

Not yet because I think they were still evaluating who's going to do night ops, who's going to do day ops, right? They're still trying to gauge your personality, who they want to pair you with, what teams they think you'll fit in best with. What's the difference between day and night ops? What's all this? Village stability. The day ops or night raids.

Okay. All right. So whether you're going to be with special forces doing VSO or you're going to be with Rangers or J-Socas. Correct. Okay. All right. So were the day ops like with like PRTs, provincial reconstruction teams and things like that? Or were they still tactical operations?

Special forces group? Like first? Still. Okay. Oh, so I guess. Yeah. VSO was Village Stability

Yeah Scott Mann's VSO concept Cool So okay So what were you feeling What kind of vibes were you getting As you're going through all this training About which side you want to go to?

I knew right away I wanted to do the night ops For sure That was definitely more my speed I felt like You know as much as we Do to try and build this rapport in the village. It's like during the day, I mean, you're there for six months and then they rotate out and you have to build these relationships all over the success rate. It's hard

to measure the success versus, you know, if you're going in at night, you either get your information or you don't or you get your person or you don't. It's really clear. Yeah. Now, in addition to like going in with these people, were you guys also trained in, obviously not necessarily battle field interrogation, but in interviewing because you are a source of intelligence for the raid, correct? Correct. Yes, we got a little bit of interview, train up, tactical questioning, how to build that rapport as fast as possible, especially for the night ops, because there's not much time.

Right. Obviously, it's not the most calm scenario, so trying to build that rapport as fast as possible. important. Now that's it's interesting because we've talked to people in and like civil affairs before, like women had an ability that men didn't have because a lot of times women in the villages would have a lot of information, but it was completely inaccessible. Yeah, some of the human interns have told us that. Yeah, it was completely inaccessible. So, and a lot of times women would, they'd want to talk to somebody because they don't want this stuff in their family or in their neighborhood, you know, in the village or whatever else.

But there's, but it's not like a guy, you know, some operator can pull a woman aside and talk to her where nobody else can see. That's just not acceptable. Yeah, culturally it's not allowed at all. And once by 2011, 2012, we're already working side by side with Afghani forces too. So they would make sure that we were abiding by the cultural, you know, ways of living or whatever. And so yeah, that would not be allowed at all. So they grant your wish by the end of this this training cycle to send you to,

you're going to do night ops. You, well, at least when I went through, you get like your top three choices, right? And I think because I was already, I had a clearance, you know, I worked until I could be assigned to J-Sock or, you know, with DeV. That's pretty cool. So I now are they starting to figure out what a CST is going to do? I've got to keep it. Okay, okay, I've got to keep coming back to this theme until I get a definition of what CSTs do.

Well, I mean, the program's still so new. And even like, you know, when we're changing hands or like doing the turnover, there's only so much information they could share like because everyone has so many missions, right? So it's like, hey, this is what I've learned. This is what works, what doesn't, but you kind of just have to learn as you go. go, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so you get selected for night ops, and then what happens next?

Then I'm assigned to deploy. We start getting ready for that in February, 2012. We end up in Bogram, and then we split up, depending on where you're supposed to be. So did you not go down to Damneck to do like a train up or an introduction with Not with them, no, not beforehand. No. No, the first time I met my team was in Afghanistan. Okay, so you show up and here is Sam Juan with a bunch of like burly seals.

I mean, how does that go over culturally, that this is something that like we had never really done before, right? I can speak from like the broader picture, maybe like what they were told or asked. to you know play nice and like hey this is a program that we have to do regardless of what your personal feelings are about it um and we got to see if this is going to work or not you know the majority of the seals they were really um accepting uh and uh cooperative um but some we're not no as long as the leadership was that's all this important right not really i mean yes overall yes but like i'm just kidding only ground, if your teammate doesn't want to work with you, it kind of makes it hard to do your job.

Yeah. Yeah. And so you guys hit bag room and then get split off. Where did you end up getting sent to? Bob Shank, local province. Okay. Cool. So now you're kind of living the dream, right? I mean, there were very, and there still are, very few opportunities for women and special operations. I guess there are more opportunities now, but we still don't have very many that have gone through the the pipeline, so to speak. But so I mean, you really were kind of like a rarity in sort of a, like a template or a prototype for, I think, what special operations is still trying to do today. I would agree with that.

I think we were the guinea pigs, you know, to see if there was any level of success. If they could measure it, if they could replicate it. And now that's, you know, some doors have opened when we can go to Ranger school, go to, you know, become infantry women. and that kind of thing. But I mean, they're going to come with pros and cons. Like I have my nieces or my nephew's wife. She's an infantry woman.

And the amount of sexual assault and stuff like that, it's just not, we're not ready yet, I don't think. You know, to live in barracks to deploy, you know, it's just not set up yet. Like culturally we're not ready? Or like the institutional infrastructure, for it, isn't there? I think the institutional infrastructure.

It's a cultural change. It's not going to happen overnight. And the women that are going through this, like they're not thinking of that, of course. It's not until they get to their unit that they're like, oh, shit. They are not prepared to have, you know, women on the team like this.

Yeah. Outside of sort of that cultural issue, I'm just curious because you showed up you deployed and from a unit that, you know, from an organization that wasn't really kind of conceived in full yet, how prepared were you just like logistically? Like, because if you're talking about dev group, all their gear is Gucci gear. Like, if they're going to, if they're going to walk five miles or whatever, like they're walking in good boots, you know, they're, you know, they have comfortable rucks, things like that. What kind of, did you, did you, did they give you like

$2,000 and say, hey, go to REI and kit yourself out? before you went? No, I did invest in some good boots because we were allowed to buy our own. I think I had Lois or something like that. But once I got to Afghanistan, the team was nice enough to fit me, outfit me with their gear. And so I got the Gucci. Yeah, because it matters, right?

I mean, the difference between the quality. It does make a difference. Holy cow. It makes a huge difference. Yes, for sure. Yeah. And I mean, you're kind of. of like living the dream though now i mean you're with a j-sox strike force out at some fob um just like

before we get to like talk about operational stuff i mean what was that experience like for you out there in afghanistan it was honestly one of the best opportunities or experiences of my life uh a huge honor you know um whether or not each individual seal liked that um for me personally it was a you know uh an accomplishment uh because coming to the United States as an immigrant and now I'm with J-Soc like it's not something that happens very often how old are you at this point uh 27th yeah so you came a pretty far away mm-hmm for for the not I don't want to not with our salt or shade but but like for the guys who weren't happy with you being there what were what were their issues because you it's not

like you're in the stack, right? It's not like you're going to be the number one person through the door. Like, what were their issues? No, I, you know, there was a very regimented protocol when I was to come in, like they would, I can't just like run amuck. I'm a liability. I'm like a test subject. I'm very high vis. So like, one of the main guys that had an issue was, you know, without even talking to me, and he's like my TQ guy, like, we're supposed to exchange information on Target. He's like, I don't care what Sam has to bring or say. I don't trust anything the women have to say, so I'm not going to take any of her intel. And it's like, okay. And he said that during a debrief. Like, he stood up in front of the entire team and said, like, I don't give a shit

what Sam has to say. Like, I'm not listening to her. So that was kind of challenging. It's interesting because I've heard something similar, and I hope it's, not, I don't think it is like this today, but this is going way back to the 1990s, actually, when Delta started bringing in women to serve in intelligence rules. And they would, in the unit, they would call them, I think they were believers and nonbelievers. And so there were some guys who supported this program, thought it was like, yeah, we have women who can go and gather intelligence or break up the pattern of just having a man. So it's a man and a woman. because one jacked up, you know, tough looking dude by himself conducting a reconnaissance in Bosnia, you know, it stands out so you can pair them up and it blends in a little bit better.

But then there were people who were non-believers and were just like they just full stop, like you said, like that one particular person just had a sort of gut reaction or instinct about it that like I don't care what this capability is. I don't care who this person is. I am just dead set against this happening. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's nothing really you can do. I mean, the leadership then was like, you have to do this. Like, it's not really your choice anymore.

These are our orders, you know, and you need to make it work. It just made it, you know, I don't think it was anything personal against me. I think it was just the idea. And so I was just like on the receiving end of that. But yeah, it was not cool. It was not a good working environment with that. I'm sure he has great personal relationships with women in his life. You know, great love life.

He's not projecting anything at all. Shane. Shade. We went there. We went there. It's okay. It's okay. Well, did, going out on target, I mean, do you remember, like, your first operation that you went out with these guys on what it was like?

Yes. So with J-Soc, typically, they only have one CST versus with Rangers or during the, the VSO missions, like you have two. So during the handoff, I remember the first one because I was still with another CST, and she was kind of showing me the ropes. But I was more like watching her see her do her thing. And then after that, like maybe two or three missions more, and then it was just me. Yeah.

And what was that like for you? Because you hadn't even, you know, unlike a lot of like men who go out on these rates, even if they hadn't done them before, they had been training for them. Yeah. You know, for quite a while generally. But in a way,

you're sort of just thrown into this, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So what was that like? The protocol of the time, very, I mean, you don't want to lose your shit,

obviously, and try to keep as cool as possible, but they usually ask the women and kids to come out first. And so I'm, like, rushing to the door then and trying to gather them, one pile and doing my searches as fast as possible by myself, right?

My turps with me, yes, but usually there's a bunch of women and kids at these compounds. So got to move quick. So what you're talking about is at this point they had moved to callouts where they're not necessarily doing unless, you know, they're not always doing just like a SWAT style raid for people who might not know how this goes. But they're standing outside the compound, outside the walls on a speakerphone and the interpreter or whomever saying, you know, come out. Come out, come out.

And even if the guys are going to fight, a lot of times they will send their women and kids out to get them out of the fight. That's exactly right. Yeah. Usually they send them out first. You know, even if they're uncooperative, they'll, like you said, they'll send them out at least.

And so your job at that point is to search all the women that come out to make sure that they're not suicide bombers or men. in disguise or whatever. Exactly. As soon as they're coming out the door, the kids, the women. Yeah, and usually there's like 20 of them, 30 of them.

There's a ton on the compound. So, yeah, having to do it really quick, try and be as accurate as possible. Right. And, I mean, it's really a risk to you, too, because if somebody is a hostile actor, you're the person standing right there. Yep, yes, exactly. Yep, there's usually one team guy on each side. that I'm searching.

You ever have any interesting experiences finding contraband on people? Yes. Definitely have found some interesting things. American money, lots of American money. Yeah, Chris, $2,100 bills, things like that. Don't know what that's about, how to turn that in.

All of it, though? Yes. I mean, come on, a little to the college fund wouldn't hurt. That's what I would, you know, GI Bill, right? Right, right. It's like church. We passed the collection, played around twice. Right.

Just to make sure. Yeah, yeah. Make sure. Yeah. So had you, like, had you done rehearsals for that, either at the course, or with the seals themselves? During the course. We did it with the Ranger, or excuse me, SF, during Eprag.

Someone like role playing. We weren't kicking down the doors per se, but like they try to make it as realistic as possible. Right. So at least you sort of knew at that point, sort of what was expected to you during like this call out and things like that. Yes, I even remember finally we were giving us feedback

as we were doing, going through the exercises. And one of the comments I'll never forget is like, I thought you're going to be tougher Sam or Juan. And I was like, oh, fuck, fine. They will be more aggressive. Doesn't always work in real life scenarios. But that's what they were trying to like bring out of you. Yeah. Just to sort of have that, that authority that so nobody messes with you or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. Not to like take advantage of you or like, you know, oh, it's a woman. Of course, I'm going to just run all over. Right. Yeah, I mean, because it was common to like doing rates and stuff. Like the women would actively get in the way because they knew that. They knew that guys generally were not going to like force them aside or do anything very aggressive.

So they would get in the way or when they were yelling at you and, you know, like tapping you, you know, like, no, no, you know. Right. Yeah. So they wanted you to kind of put forth that, that energy like don't fuck with you. Yeah, definitely. Yep. But you'd have to read the room too. You can't always do that. You know, that'll turn off. They won't be as responsive. They won't be you can't build that before if you're always like, you know, super aggressive. Yeah, I would say one of the most successful interviews or tactical questioning situations was when we came to the compound and one of the, I think she was like 15 or 16 year old girl. She had just given. given birth. Okay, so she, like, maybe a couple hours before. And so in an immense pain, and I had a daughter at the time, so I knew how to do the whole breastfeeding thing and all

that. So I'm propping up the kid and being really feminine. And the mom is like, tell her whatever she wants. Like, you know, they're there to help us. I got the medic to come and help give her pain meds. And yeah, it was that kind of situation. like you just kind of have to read the room like trying to be aggressive in that moment isn't probably going to be great. That's wild. That's like the real CST mission right there. Yeah, it really is.

And I don't know how much you can tell us, but you said it was one of the most successful. It was like what kind of information or intel came out of that situation? Try. It wasn't hard to find out who the person was that we need to find. Yeah. It's very forthcoming. Yeah. And I think.

Sam was teaching like breastfeeding classes there on. Yeah, you got to prop up the pillow under the thing. That's amazing. Yeah. No, it really is because I think a lot of people like don't understand that a lot of times when you're, when J-Soc was doing these raids on like signals intelligence alone or whatever, you can go in a compound where there are 15 guys like 20 phones. Yeah.

All set and so you don't know which phone belongs to which guy. You know your guy is in there, but you don't know who he is because it's all based on SIGN. So, you know, you're able to decipher this information because the women are willing to tell you who's who. Yes, there were more forthcoming with information, especially, you know, they could trust you. I would usually take my, this is not very safe tactically, but I would take my helmet off. Right. So they could see my hair.

Right. And some of my deployment photos, you'll see I have like braids and that's not in rigs or whatever the heck most people say. And it's like, no, this is like to accomplish the mission. faster, like, so they can see that I'm not a guy. Right. They encouraged us to grow our hair out, stuff like that. Right. Were they pretty shocked that there was a woman on this team?

Yep. A lot of the times they were very surprised to see a woman on the team. I mean, I'm in the same uniform, you know, it wasn't until I had a scar, but I would take off my helmet and that was when they could tell the difference. That's wild. So any other, like, from that deployment, like particular stories, any like, particular stories, any like firefights or any other particularly hairy situations that kind of stand out for you yeah one in particular um after that mission happened like operations across afghanistan stopped

pause for like a week um you know come out come out they don't want to come out um call for backup hellfire crush the entire compound um only survivors were these two women um and of course that's my responsibility. They're hysterical. You know, just let me die here. Don't bring me back. You're going to kill me. You're going to rape me. You know, all this stuff. And then bringing them back to base, you know, still having them. Being a parent can be really challenging. It's normal to feel uncertain about whether you're doing the right things to raise healthy and happy children. That's why Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five with free support services to help them build confidence in their parenting journey. Everyone deserves to have someone they can turn to for support with parenting.

Visit child and family resource network.org today. Question them, you know, and all they can do is cry. You know, the mother, she was trapped under the rubble. And she literally was like, you know, I watched all my kids dying from me and I can do anything. So stuff like that's kind of challenging and tough. And trying to like, how can I console this lady? How can I console her and like still do my job? It's a good conscience, you know.

Yeah. It sounds like, I mean, now that you're actually explaining what the job is, it sounds like much more difficult than I. I imagined beyond like tactical questioning because like on one hand yeah you have to be a badass with a rifle and prove yourself to all these dudes that you're working with and like be that gangster when you have to but at the same time like you're also having the like comfort women who's families have just been wiped out or help them you know deal with their infant baby I mean like those are two like very very different roles and I don't know how you handled that as as one person balancing those two things.

It's like a very fluid thing that needs to happen instantly. You know, the training that they gave us, like, they were doing the best that they can, but it's really instinctual, right? Like, you can't guess how you're supposed to react. You don't know how you're going to react when you need to teach someone how to breastfeed and they're searching the room right next to you and, like, shots going off. Right. You know, it's a crazy balancing act.

Yeah. How much feedback was, you know, like the schoolhouse and the people in charge, how much feedback were they getting from you guys in the field? Like, okay, like, this is just what I did. Like, this needs to be included and incorporate in the training or this is how to evolve training. So since we all were split up and a lot of the, like, we were the only women on each of the team. So we would have like either weekly or biweekly calls to kind of do check-ins and like keep each other up to date on lessons learned, things that happened. So there were regular

check-ins. That's great. Were the people back at Bragg were they receptive to like, you know, to the input? Yes, for sure. And I think so one of the women that I deployed with, she was stationed at like southern Afghanistan. I can't remember which. exact fall but she took over the program for the next like seven or eight years so she ran the program after that and so she deployed like five or six times she she's amazing and so the program definitely saw some continuity and so they they were able to build and like progress um probably not as much as she would want you know you know sure but you know uh i think that was probably the smartest way they could do instead of having turnover of leadership or or whatnot so

And what about the guys you were with? I mean, did even some of the non-believers start to come around to the idea after a while? Well, since the CSC program was only a year-long program, most, you know, other than the one that I said took over the program, you only volunteered for a year. Your unit's not going to let you go. There's not an actual CST unit. Right. And so I don't know if I think it's still continued on, you know, you know, know like some people were cool on that some people are not it's just kind of the nature of the

beast yeah i don't know it's it's tough to imagine anybody you know looking at the capabilities or or getting like the intel or like you mentioned on the on the one particular op that you were on where you were able to positively positively identify the guy it's hard for people not it's hard to understand how people can see that efficacy and not become a believer. Whether you believe in women in combat or not, like this is something very specific and very needed in some ways. Yeah, I mean, the skill and the need is there, the tool is there, and they're women that are raising their hand high in the air, like, hey, I want to do this, trade me, you know. But I think we're a long way of it becoming an accepted, like, yeah,

this is definitely a skill on everybody believes in. Right. That's interesting. So what were some of the more interesting things that, like, you realized or learned, like working with these J-Soc guys? Definitely coming from, like, a regular Army unit to even, like, Intel, but now you're wearing Gucci, right? And then I have to go back to you wearing your standard issue.

I really there's a huge huge difference playing with adults versus being treated like a child yeah you know and if there was a way to like continuously finish out my career with at J-Soc I would have tried to do that but I realized soon after I got back from Afghanistan that I was done I think you know and on a high note let's let's do that and So it was really, it was that one deployment to Afghanistan. And then by the time you came back, it was sort of like getting towards the end of that one-year term in the CST program. Correct. Who are we, did we interview a while back that was in that same boat that it was another woman.

And she felt like she also got to the same point where she had, like the organization didn't know what to do with her at a certain point. Yeah. And she retired. I'm sorry. Yeah. I can't remember. I mean. But it just comes up and resonates because I know I've heard similar experiences over the years.

So in a way, seeing what J-Soc had and the way they lived their life and what their military looked like. And then going back to the regular military, it kind of ruined it for it. You had all the toys and now you have no toys. Right. It's hard. It's a hard transition back because you're used to being, you know, autonomous you're used to being treated like you know except for the one dude uh that didn't like cc or whatever um most of them trade you like grown-ups and i really enjoyed that and i felt like

it should always be like that like why isn't it always like that right right yeah and how how did the people in your own unit like respond because you weren't even like in a combat arms unit you were in a sagan unit so you might have some people some guys there who who had been on like a maybe a sod A maybe, but for the most part, like people in that career field weren't going into combat. What did they think of your experience?

Yeah, you had to volunteer, like people are volunteering to get deployed and slots were limited, so deployments were really rare. They were really supportive. It's super vague and people don't really know what it is yet. So they were just like, oh my God, so bad ass. But yeah, a lot of encouragement, a lot of support for my leadership. Yeah. Okay. I remembered who I was thinking of. Sam, if you'll tolerate this segue, this is relevant.

This is relevant information, though. We have not interviewed her on the show. I've talked to her in the past, Katie McBryor, who in 1977, when the Army started up a counterterrorism unit called blue light to be an interim unit before Delta was stood up. Katie was also an intelligence analyst at fifth group. And the group commander brought her into blue light because he wanted a woman to have an intelligence gathering capability, someone who could dress up like a nurse or a flight attendant and going close to where the terrorists were and gather information and help them plan the operation. So Katie was brought in. and they trained her and she shot very well, jumped out of airplanes, did all the things the dudes did.

And these were hardcore Vietnam veterans, very skeptical of her initially. But as time went on, every single one of them that I spoke to said that Katie was value-added and that she was a great member of the team and they really came to love her. And Katie is still out there. She's a great woman. I'd love to introduce you to her sometimes, Sam. Yeah, that would be amazing. I'd love to talk to her.

Yeah, she's super cool. But anyway, I bring it up because she told me very similar that after being in blue light, how do you come down from that? There were no rules for a woman to do anything even remotely like that ever again in the Army. Again, this was 1977. Yeah, I can definitely attest to that. From 13 or 14 women that did deploy during the night. grades during my cycle. Seven of us got out right after.

Okay. So that's a test to that. They return back to their regular unit and I'm like, nope, I don't want to do this. I want to go to school. I want to start family. You know, whatever it was. She's something else. They got out. I've noticed a couple of people in the comments have asked about Ashley White. You said you knew her or? Well, I didn't know her, but we were in selection together. Okay. Yeah, I mean, and that just goes to show that you guys weren't just like hanging out and like, like, you know, yeah, yeah. So the, how long did the actual CST program itself exist? You said it wasn't long. No, it wasn't long.

I think nine or ten years. Okay. So, okay. So it did go on for a bit of a span, but there were just one year terms for you guys. That's really weird, a really weird way to run it. because there's no institutional knowledge at that point. Yeah, I mean, the turnover. And I don't know if there are any CFCs other than, you know, the woman that ran it,

that were able to go again, you know, like, so you train up this woman, you take all this time, you invest all this money, and then you send her back to a regular unit, like, put a waste. Right. Yeah. Would you know why they didn't, they hadn't stood up a unit for that or why they didn't, you know, seek to capitalize on the investment they'd put in you? I'm not sure. I'm not sure why they didn't, like, stand up a unit at J-Soc. Right.

Honestly. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, they had other capabilities, you know, like that element in Delta that recruited, you know, small numbers of women. Right. So why they didn't formalize the CST program earlier doesn't make sense. But now, I mean, I think you're right, Sam. The military is clearly struggling with this. I think it was around, oh, man.

what year is it? Now I'm having to rack my brain. It's probably around 2015 or 2016 when I remember being down at Bragg talking to some special forces officers and they talked about the CST program on its way out and how they wanted to create a more formal process for women to enter special operations. And now since then, we've seen them open the doors for special forces, Navy SEALs, Rangers. Ranger school, yeah. Ranger School a lot. Only a couple, I think, serving in the Ranger Regiment in infantry positions, and we've seen one woman graduate from the Special Forces qualification course so far.

So small numbers, I mean, I think if I were to opine on this, and I mean, you can feel free to call me an idiot at any juncture in this interview. But I feel like there's this need for a capability. for women to be on special operations teams, but they don't necessarily have to wear a green beret or a tan beret. They don't necessarily have to go through that entire pipeline. We could train them just to do the sorts of things that you did, Sam, the sorts of things that some of the women who work in intelligence rules do

and kind of bring them in on that sort of basis. Without them necessarily being a seal or green beret or going from Buds or SFA or whatever else. Yeah. I think that's what they were trying to do with the Fed. teams. Are you guys familiar with that? Yeah. I worked with them in Iraq in 2009. Okay. Yeah, I think that was the idea with that for conventional units. I'm not familiar with their exact, like what their responsibilities were, but they definitely

did not have a pipeline from what I, at least in the beginning, they were still trying to figure out what their role was as well. Yeah. The FET was the female engagement team, I believe. That's great. And they worked with my ODA in 2009. And then the Marines had a program too. It's at one point, too. The lionesses. Say it again, please? The lionesses, I believe.

Really? That's what it was called? I think so. I thought there was like an acronym or something like that. Oh, maybe. Okay. I thought there were the lionesses. Okay, cool.

No, I didn't know that. So you did your year in the CST program. What's going on for you at this point? I mean, you spoke a little bit about it. What's the next step? So then I actually got back into art in Afghanistan. So in my off time, I'd paint to kind of like take my mind off what was going on. I used it as an outlet.

And so once I got out the following year, I enrolled right into ODIU, majoring in painting, and then I switched to drawing design my last year. but yeah, I immersed myself right into school. Okay. And you mentioned, I think, at one point that you had a daughter? Yes. And so you were already in the military trying to balance having a kid on top of all of this. Yep.

So I had my, I had Jasmine when I was 24. So she was, you know, with her dad at the time when I was on deployment. But yeah. So yeah, a lot going on in, like. life. I think that's pretty common in the military. You know, you kind of just juggle everything. Some things you do okay at some, you kind of do crappy at. Well, I mean, I say that. I mean, maybe that's just my own bias coming out because obviously a lot of the male soldiers have kids at home too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha.

When, did your deployment with the CST, did it like affect or change your opinion on Afghanistan on the war on terror or things like that? Not overall. I think, you know, when we were on mission, there wasn't much time to really gather a full picture. I think those working BSO or deops, they got to see more of what it really meant to live in Afghanistan or like what those situations were, those living situations were because they had to immerse themselves in it versus, you know, I got to go back. to the Bob every night and, you know, I probably would never see that woman or that group of children again. But. And then, yeah, I see. I'm sorry. And then, like, was there, because we talk about this quite a bit on the show, we talk about this quite a bit on the show in terms of, like,

post-traumatic stress from, like, operators from people who have been, having been on target and seeing the things that you did. Have you sort of experienced me, anything like that? Yeah, I do have, I struggle with PTSD, especially talking about that one specific mission, anxiety, depression, stuff like that. Yeah. And then how has like your after service, the after service support then for that? I went through my own way of medicating and coping and dealing and I didn't want to talk to a therapist, you know, the reuge. Not until recently, not until at the start of pandemic. I finally was. Oh, wow.

Yeah. Like, I need to get my shit together. And so finally started going to therapy. And the art back there is inspired. I don't know if you guys are familiar with, like, psychedelic therapy for veterans dealing with PTSD. I'm a very, very, very strong supporter of that. It has done wonders for me. That's interesting.

So did you have to go outside? the VA for that because the VA isn't supporting that yet, are they? I don't believe so not yet. Yeah. But what I've seen personally and seen other veterans go, the progress that they've made even with one treatment, it's just remarkable. Yeah.

I'm hoping to work in that field soon, very soon. That's great. I think that's one of the frustrating things about the VA is because they are under all these federal mandate, because, you know, it's a federal organization that all the things, you know, whether it's with cannabis or MDMA or psychedelics or whatever, like for all the veterans, they see they're not, they're not utilizing any of those, they're not open to any of those. They don't support any of those. Right.

Ketamine was going to be approved. I believe under Trump, actually. The nasal spray isketamine, but they, the last minute, recalled and denied. But I've tried that as well, and it's really, really great. And I've definitely spoken to people who are like huge advocates of like DMT and Hiawaska. And just like you mentioned, even after like one treatment, just having like tremendous results from that. Yep. For myself, you know, peyote, 5MEO, DMT, psilocybin.

I've seen or talked to people that have gone through ibogaine and ayahuasca and, you know, battling addictions. really, really bad addiction. And after one treatment, like never did cocaine again or, you know, any opiates, it's really powerful. If you're comfortable, could you tell us a little bit about, like, what your experience was like and how it helped you? Sure. I think I've gained the most progress with the psilocybin five MEO combination. The psilocybin, what we do is like a hero dose, they call it. So five or six grams of mushrooms. You know, you're in a group setting on a mattress, eye mask. They have a soundtrack playing different types of music.

And it's almost like reliving your life again. You're able to watch your life. You're like in this movie. And let's say there's something that happened that you have gotten closure over right you wanted to say something then you didn't get the chance to and you relive it and you say it and you close that chapter and you kind of just you know that burden has been released and you do that for like five or six hours it's like a hundred hours of talk therapy in like one chunk wow and now is this is this guided where there where somebody's talking you through

your your life in that way um no the the amount of till seven the hero doses you're you're not really talking okay yeah um a lot of crying a lot of crying um one of the times there was a guy we call it the battle cry um he was just yelling and like this is on the on the arm of the medicine you know um and then you hear a and not like a despair oh my god i'm going to die but like he is reliving some sort of like deployment situation right like i'm going to kill you motherfuckers and all of us in there kind of like we're all in the same room and it kind of jolts you out like oh fuck now we're in it you know like and this is why we're here and like you have to like deal with your own shit while you're listening to somebody battling theirs not only is it like you're multitasking

but it also gives you the empathy right like because like seeing at face value everyone's a tough motherfucker and like everyone's in that like situation but when you're under the medicine, they're crying, they're dealing with trauma, they're reliving these battles, the survivor's guilt. Like, there's so much stuff that you have to process. And the medicine brings it out, like, more than better than any kind of talk therapy, I think. Wow. And how does this play into your paintings? You mentioned a psychedelic painting. What is that? So, when you think of psychedelics, most people think, like kaleidoscopes and rainbows and unicorns and shit but um the stuff that I

painting has like there's a lot of symbolism in there and things that I've seen during and during the peyote ceremonies they're outside the ones that I went to were in the mojave desert so very ceremonial with Native American tribe we're chanting praying so just a culmination of all that That's fascinating. For veterans who might be listening to this and aren't maybe either getting the help they need through the VA or having a hard time reaching out, you know, doing a lot of self-medicating or whatnot, are there organizations that you personally would recommend that maybe they look into? Absolutely. So the Mission Within is one, Dr. Martine Polanco is who I started working with.

He threw the mission within and the sacred war community in Austin. Really great organization. Hurokarts is a really great organization. Sabo Foundation is we're starting up our program. So we're actually hosting our first program in May. And it's not only just psychedelic therapy, but it's a wellness retreat. We're going to be doing meditation, sound baths, yoga, art therapy.

with the psychedelic medicine as well. Can you say your organization again? Sure. Sabo, S-A-B-O-T-F-T Foundation. Yeah, I hope people go and check that out. I've definitely, you know, friends of mine have spoken really highly about this stuff over the years and just found it really, you know, it helped when other things weren't, you know.

Yeah, absolutely. And usually the people that go to these retreats, they're out there, you know, they have nothing else to lose kind of thing, you know. So everyone brings it. So the S-A-B-O-Foundation.org, S-A-B-O-T-Foundation.org, I'll put a link in that. And, you know, because we know, we talk to veterans all the time who might still be, you know,

are either in progress with the post-traumatic stress or, you know, having, they don't want to reach out to anybody because a lot of times, like, trying to find a therapist who even relates to what you've been to can be very challenging. I think it's harder than dating. Yeah.

For sure, because you're like, I need to tell someone all my shit. And if they don't relate, then you're going to feel like you're wasting your time. Yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic. We have a couple of questions or people have sent in. BP, I thought there's one. David A, thank you very much for the donation.

We really appreciate it. BPA-A-Z, thank you for the very generous donation. He said, great topic and guest. We agree. Thank you. Does Sam think her ethnicity helped her build trust with the locals, or did they not care about such things? I think it really helped.

Filipino and Persian. So I think, you know, minus my tattoo, obviously, you're not going to see them in uniform. They probably thought I was from there, you know, I was Afghani or at least partial. From that part of the world. When you, when you mentioned that like the woman thought, oh, they're going to take me back and they're going to assault me, they're going to do this. Was there a lot of that sort of a kind of misconception amongst the locals about what happened to women in? Actually, no.

Surprisingly, no. there was very rarely like hysterical interactions like that. They're usually very calm or cooperative. If they weren't cooperating, they just wouldn't talk. Yeah.

Interesting. Adam, thank you very much. Really cool and brave to take the conversation here, fam. I used to talk about push-marsh. More important than bang-bang-m them stories. Bang-bang-Beat him stories.

Sam is a true heroine and an invaluable asset to the battlefield that are commutes. always out front. I appreciate that. Sam, I also wanted to ask you about your traditional tattoos because, you know, when I, when I saw them and we had a conversation about it a while back, I start making assumptions

about, you know, what Pacific Island you might be from, but you surprised me. It's something I really didn't know anything about. Can you tell us a little bit about your tattoos and what they mean to you? Sure. So my tattoos in the Philippines. I had initially just my quarter sleeves of. on both arms. My right arm is primarily for my dad on the upper arm and for my son, my lower arm. And then my mom, the feminine side is the left side. So my mom's the upper half.

And then my daughter is the lower part. And then different, this is like a transformative when I was going, finally going through my healing. And then when my mom passed away, I got one on my upper back. Is that, pardon me, because I don't know anything about this stuff. Is that how these traditional tattoos are usually done that they represent phases in life? You back in the day, you would earn them, right? Warriors would earn them doing certain things. There would be ceremonies and I don't know if you've seen that, but like just traditional way of doing it.

But yeah, women would get the chest piece and then typically just the outside of the arm. I just wanted to fill it every, but typically it's just the outside for women, yeah. So I know in Thailand is Sakkian. I got one of those, but what do they call it in the Philippines when it's the traditional? Batok. Batok. Yeah, VAT. Okay.

And then did you get all those done that way? So I had found this group called Mark of the Four Waves when I was stationed in Germany. But finding a black work artist or a Batok artist in Germany at the time was fairly challenging. So he would send me the designs, but I went to like he would, He specialized in like mandala's and stuff like that, dot work. And that's how I got the majority of my work done. But I do have some on my sternum traditionally. Yeah.

It's fascinating. Yeah. And I had no idea that it was even done in the Philippines. I think of New Zealand, Guam, some other parts of the world. What part of the Philippines does this come from? So I'm Visayan or my parents were from Visayan, But there's different designs or patterns per region. So depending on where you're from in the Philippines, the framework's going to be different.

The pattern is going to be different. And if you think about the islands in the Pacific Ocean, like back in the day, ancestors would travel and migrate. So you'll see similar patterns. They might mean something slightly different, but these patterns were exchanged. So, yeah. Sam, you mentioned the psilocybin, the most of the moment. What did you say the conjunctive therapy was with that?

Sure. So the retreat that I've done that I've found the most progress, the first day we do the hero dose of psilocybin, and the second day, we'll do the 5MEO DMT or toad. Okay. Interesting. And how does, because I've heard of like microdosing the psilocybin being an effective therapy. Do you know how, do you know how those two styles of therapy differentiate?

Sure. I would say with micro dosing, I've used that to get off antidepressants that really helped me out. When you do microdose, you really shouldn't feel any kind of like head change or buzz or maybe just a little elevated mood. But the hero dose, I mean, it just like, whooped your ass. It's just, it's not pleasant. You know, it's not rainbows and butterflies. It's like you're ready to deal with your shit now. Right. Right. I'm just curious because, you know, you hear about, well, I'll tell you, like, I've tried mushrooms once and it was not pleasant for me at all. And I would, you know, so I would, for me, like, I'd be like, well, that's, that's not for me.

Yeah. How do they keep people from, I don't want to say going to a dark place because that's probably part of the goal, but for just not getting sucked into it and for using that as processing. Yeah. So when you were doing yours, I would imagine you didn't have like soothing spa music, you know, and an eye mask and a very safe environment. When people are going through a rough patch in their trip, sometimes the therapist will like check in, you know. They like to kind of just leave them and let them process through it. But if it's going too dark, they'll break, you know, like, hey, are you okay kind of thing. Interesting. That's interesting. Have any of the forms in your research, because I imagine you probably have research, and has, have any of the different types of modalities proven more effective than others, or are they all because they're all creating separation sort of equally effective?

I think just from my experience and from my research or, you know, working in this field for a little bit now, like each medicine affects you differently. and it's how open-minded you are, how open your heart is, what the experience is like that. Like the ceremony part of it is so vital to the success and integration of the medicine. You know, anyone can buy some mushrooms and trip in your living room. It's not the same thing, right? Like to really take it seriously and like as a healing modality, I think makes a huge difference. Will, thank you. And Charlie, he says, as a vet with PTSD, who has been a patient in the recent MDMA trials,

I can't stress enough how powerful some of these psychedelic assisted therapies are. I believe it will be the default treatment within three years. Yeah, I mean, there are efforts like there are, I mean, there are people out there who think this psychedelic revolution is happening. I mean, we sort of went through that movement in the 1960s, not to be too cynical about it. But I mean, do you think we are coming up on the cusp of like a wave of legalization and normalization of psychedelics and how we treat mental health? No, absolutely. The mission within and Saveward War community, like I mentioned, they are now going to be a part of the UT Austin study here. I think it's going to be 30 special operations participants going through like brain scanning, treatments, TBI, monitoring, all that stuff.

They stood up a psychedelic center at UT Austin. I really feel like they're seeing the benefits of it. At UT. What do you think it'll take for the government and the VA in particular to finally get on board with all of this? When they figure out how they can monetize. I mean, I mean, I don't doubt you. It's just sad. Will wanted me to ask, this is a little all over, but who knew she was on a mission,

what was Garrison life before and after deployment? I think you answered that. Did Joe behave downrange? I think we've probably answered that. How far did you live from the team? And did she find intel in gross places? I lived like, the only questions we haven't answered yet. I lived like five-tenths away from the rest of the team, so really close.

And then the weirdest place I found Intel was in a woman's, they don't have like sanitary pads, you know, so they fold up rags to use while they're on their rag. So finding stuff there. And you found some hot Intel in the rag? The phone. Holy shit. Well, you heard it here first, folks. Yeah. Phones in the Pleasure Garden. Oh, we went there. We went there. Yeah, not in, but that's what $20 gets you when you ask these questions on the YouTube.

I mean, I think that's, I think that's a valid question, though, because you've also mentioned issues with, like, your relative, your niece's wife, I think, but in the infantry. My nephew's wife, yes. Did, or your nephew's wife, sorry. Did, did, did, um, did Joe. behave downrange and how did you deal with obvious come on sure um i was fortunate i was fortunate they were very professional in that regard i didn't you just swat away you know compliments or whatever the fuck um but they got the picture really quickly yeah but um other tcc's weren't as lucky what was that uh that was um like a pretty serious issue you heard with some of your colleagues in the program. Yeah, I mean, the elephant in the room, right?

You're going to put Taipei woman with Taipei men and you're out alone in the middle of the desert. Like it happens with conventional units. So why wouldn't it happen with special operations? Right. Right. And we're, we're, do you, do you feel the military or those units were doing a good deal addressing that or no no i don't i don't think they they wanted to address it because they of the pressure

of wanting the program to succeed right yeah and i mean there's also you know two two things involved here i mean in one hand we're talking about like consenting behavior between adults that right okay so what but then when when it crosses that line obviously at that point something really does need to be addressed yeah i agree um the consenting adult thing whatever, but it's still happening now. Things get slipped under the rug all the time. Yeah. Yeah, it does, unfortunately.

And I feel like, you know, although it should not, you can also see the people who want the program to succeed to go, well, if like we acknowledge this as a problem, then they're just going to yank or shut down the program. So, you know, and again, that's not an excuse. Right. It's at the expense of, you know, a woman's mental health or life or body.

But, yeah, don't really know what the right answer is there. Yeah. Yeah, it's complicated. I mean, it shouldn't be complicated. And in one way, it's not complicated at all. The right thing is the right thing. Right, do the right thing. Right.

Yeah, well, I mean, the military in the entire country knows there's a problem there and the military still hasn't adequately addressed it. So, I mean, yeah, clearly there's a problem. But we touched on a couple big topics here. But can you tell us a little bit more about your transition out of the military into civilian life and sort of like where you are today, where you're at, what you're up to? Yeah. So, yeah, I mentioned going to art school right after.

And then I got into a program for special outfits. It doesn't exist anymore, but it was an advertising program, a year-long program where you do four different rotations at four different marketing agencies. So I moved from or left Norfolk, Virginia, moved to Boston to do a three-month internship there. New York for six months, two different agencies there, and then Dallas, the last three months here. and then I really enjoyed my time at the agency that I work at now and been here ever since. And you said there's a son now too. Yes, yes. So that time towards the end of my military career ended up getting married, moved to Virginia Beach, Norfolk.

And the last year of me being in school, I got pregnant. And then that relationship didn't work out. And so, yes, co-parenting. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah. And what is, are you still in touch with a lot of the, like, the females from the CST? I mean, I imagine then, because it is such a small unit that it is probably closely knit. Yeah, we have a Facebook group and, like, we keep in touch via email events.

They host, we did something for the 20 year anniversary last year in New York. They do stuff at Bragg all the time. So, yeah, it's really small, but tight-knit group. That's fantastic. And have you guys talked to like any historians or people like that who are trying to, you know, capture like this small unit? Sure. Gail Lemons, I think is her name, who wrote Ashley's War. I think she wrote another book after that.

But yeah, a few times people have reached out to kind of share the story and learn about the program. But it's still not a lot of people know about it. Right. That's interesting. Yeah, it's really interesting. It's an unknown, you know, program. And I mean, I guess what is the conclusion of you and some of the other women who served in this unit? What are you kind of your big takeaways from?

the CST program and this overall endeavor in the special operations community? For myself, I think what I contributed to the creation of this program or like, you know, what's been established coming from this program, the success of the program, I can say that's something I'm really proud of, you know, whether or not people are all on board or are they're not, you know, I did my part and I feel like I can't, no one can take that away from me, you know. And I think a lot of the CSTs feel the same way. They did what they could do with the resources and given the times. You know, the special operations community is very small. I mean, it seems big because of the press it gets, but, but it is, it is very small. But, you know, the number,

women who have been in combat and I mean the front line of combat because like female truck drivers will you know will find themselves in combat but you're part of even a smaller community of women who have actually sort of been on the front line has that has that done to more to connect you has that connected you to vets or or has it separated you in a way where you're a woman having kind of a unique experience um I think I think I think it's connects more so than not, especially with like going through the psilocybin treatments and the retreats. A lot of them are special operation pets. Most majority of them are males. So like hearing like I have this experience, you know, they kind of relate and they're open to being vulnerable and like

letting out their trauma with the understanding like she's been there. And so yeah, it's a it's been a very unique experience in so many ways. I bet. That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that though. again, it's a topic that we try to talk about when, you know, when it comes up and, you know, we know there are still a lot of veterans out there that, you know, haven't reached out, and for various reasons, right? I mean, a lot of times it's not just a lot of, you know, chest slumping. I can get through this on my own, but it's a rejection of like formal therapy sometimes and things like that.

And I think it's important for veterans to understand that there are alternatives to just talking to somebody who just graduated from, you know, their PsyD course or whatever and are sitting in a room with them. Yeah, definitely. There's so many different modalities out there. I'm not saying being a guinea pig, but don't be afraid to try. You don't know which medicine what's going to work for you or, you know, what will give you the most healing. But don't be afraid. Yeah. Well, Sam, this has been awesome. Really appreciate you taking some time or Friday night. I mean, are there any other big things you think that we failed to ask? Anything that you think viewers should know?

I think we covered quite a bit. I'm really appreciative of talking about the PTSD treatment stuff because the second dial therapy, it's the next cannabis, but people are too afraid or, you know, they don't know anyone that's done it. And I think, you know, being an advocate for it, thank you for the opportunity to share my experience about that because more veterans need to do it. For the guys who might, you know, especially for guys who are like the type A and like I don't need that hippie-dippy, like, you know, new-age crap. Like, you know, because you talk about, you know, sound bad, these things.

What would you say to those guys who are like, you know, I've got my LeFroid, my Jack, you know, and I don't need these like new age crappy. I would say there's a lot of them that show up on the first day and they're, you know, battling alcoholism or cocaine addiction. or whatever it is, you know, they're violent and they don't know why they're violent. But if you're so tough, don't be afraid to try. Yeah. It's really beneficial.

Sam, where can people go to find you and see your paint things and see your work? You can check me out on the onceamonon.com. Same username for Instagram and TikTok. It's One Samwan or the, one Sam one. The one Sam one. Yeah, I reached out to Sam on Instagram and I saw some of her pictures on there and I get a little self-conscious. I'm like, I could do that many pull-ups.

No big deal. They used to meet my shit. Whatever. Not anymore. Once upon a time. Once a lot of time. You still work out though? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. But not, yeah, not as crazy as it was. Yeah, I was going to say. All right. And the other thing I just wanted to mention real quick is if you ever know any other CSTs or any other women in the special operations community, we'd be very interested in interviewing them on the show. Our guests are overwhelmingly male because of the subject matter that we cover. But we're definitely happy. We're not afraid of the cooties.

We like to interview women on the show, too. So, yeah, if you have any friends who would like to do something like this, we're very open to it. Yeah, I'll definitely reach out to some people and see if they're open. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, it's my great, great conversation. Really nice chatting with you guys. I really appreciate the opportunity. And everyone out there, please like, share, and subscribe to the channel if you haven't already.

And check out down the description or Patreon page if you want to support the channel. And there's like merch down there too. Yeah, there is. And check out Sam's stuff too. Yeah. The one samwan.com. That's it. Cool.

Appreciate it, guys. All right. Have a good night. Bye. Take care.