The Team House - Talking DeepSeek & TikTok w/ Security Expert Shannon Miller | EYES ON PODCAST

Episode Date: January 30, 2025

Today we're join by security expert and contractor Shannon Miller to deep dive on DeepSeek & TikTok and whether they really are a national security threat.Find Shannon here⬇️https://www.lockdownyourlife.com/Support the show on Patreon:⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseFind Andy Milburn here: ⬇️https://twitter.com/i/flow/login?redirect_after_login=%2Fandymilburn8https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewmilburn2023https://amilburn.substack.com/https://www.amazon.com/When-Tempest-Gathers-Mogadishu-Operationshttps://bsky.app/profile/andy-milburn.bsky.socialhttps://open.substack.com/pub/amilburn/p/journal-of-a-plague-year?utm_source=app-post-stats-page&r=emo6q&utm_medium=iosFind Mick Mulroy here: ⬇️https://fogbow.com/https://www.loboinstitute.org/https://x.com/MickMulroy?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthorhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-patrick-mulroy-31198b52/https://bsky.app/profile/mickmulroy.bsky.socialFind Jason Lyons here: ⬇️https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-lyons-666873316?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_apphttps://bsky.app/profile/bgsilverback73.bsky.socialBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Aizan. Today I'm joined by Shannon Miller and Jason Lyons, of course, one of our stalwart, one of our anchors. I'm Dimitri. Shannon Millie could find her out Lockdown Your Life.com. She's a security expert and security contractor. And we brought her here today to talk specifically about what's going down with all these Chinese apps, Deep Seek, TikTok, what it really means in terms of our national security. Is it an overhyped thread? Is it not? And the big news this week was Deep C coming out with an AI model that is rivaling chat GPTs and outperforming it in some aspects too. It caught out of China. It cost them $6 million where compared to open AI's GPT4. It costs them like 80-ish million to make.

You saw this what went down in the stock market too, like a bunch of AI stocks and Navidia all took a shit yesterday. People are reacting. you know, the AI companies are over, I would say over financed. So yeah, what's going on? Is it going to end the world? DeepSeek. Shannon, tell us everything you know.

I think it challenges the premise that only big, well capitalized companies can make a breakthrough in the sector of AI. So like you have leading tech firms like OpenAI saying that, you know, they spent billions of dollars on artificial intelligence and saying that you have to scale, like that the future of AI is scale. And DeepSeek kind of undermines that entire theory that you have to spend all this money on scaling via data centers and training models. They've done it for a fraction of the cost.

And that's what they say anyway. So the assumption is that it's going to perform as well or better than Open AI against the same benchmarks. So that's what's got everyone freaked out in the market and why they stripped $1.2 trillion off of the stock market, which, yay. Frankly, these large companies are selling the second. Open AI specifically is selling this technology to government and they're lobbying politicians and public policy institutions to say this is the only way you can do AI is at scale, whereas this model says you can do it through a combination of open source and already existing language models. So now I'm not an AI expert. I am doing all of this at the same rate as everyone else, which is daily. It's a fire hose of news and of AI and like the story changes every 24 hours. So this is a very dynamic and flexible industry, but like anything else in tech, it's a lot. it's breakable. So I tried to watch a video like two days ago about this whole thing and I made it halfway through and my eyes were bleeding. I couldn't understand it. So you just use the term scaling

a couple of times. Can you explain a little bit? So for scaling, they're talking about using AI for all of your products, injecting AI into every single facet of online life, whether it's through news searches. So like Google has a Gemini, it has the Gemini assistant on your phone, whether you want it or not, it's there. Just like Meta AI has, has it on Instagram. They have it on Facebook. They have it. It propagates your search results. So when they're talking about scale, they're literally talking about installing AI into everything, whether you've asked for it or not. Not every product benefits from AI in a way that I think they think is effective. AI can be used as a tool to help humans do their jobs more efficiently. It should not replace humans for a lot of the things, because a lot of

AI sorting, a lot of AI, they use it for labeling and community monitoring on social platforms as well. A lot of the times, like, they get it wrong, and it still has to be reviewed by a human. So what you're asking AI to do is to be human when it's not. So when you talk about scaling, you're talking about billions, billions of dollars of power, energy resources being put to AI platforms, data centers that take, you know, drinking water from the local population that take power resources and also create, carbon emissions. So you've got you've got multiple levels of issues here with when you're scaling AI, whereas this smaller model uses less energy is more efficient and is partially open source. So you've got you've got a lot of factors involved here and they're all connected. Gotcha. Okay. Does it answer your question? I'm sorry. It felt like that kind of.

No, it does. No. It really does. Like I said, I got halfway through this video and correct me if I'm wrong because I probably am, but just hate jumping. back because I'm sure that most of our listeners know this stuff and I don't. But the way it works, I guess, at least like chat GPT, I think that's what they were talking about, or AI in general. It has to be taught, correct? Like we teach it. It's trained on data, but we don't know what data sets, deep seek has used. And because chat GPT and OpenAI is not, they have like kind of black box their technology. We don't know specifically what data sets they used, what information they're training off of. We're assuming they're stealing content. We're assuming they're stealing

content, even copyrighted content to train the language model because we just don't know. And because of the things that chat GPT regurgitates, you can kind of guess that, oh, it wouldn't know this unless it had trained off somebody else's information and product. So then you have copyright liability issues, you know, trademark liability. You have all kinds of things sucked up by AI. Wow. Okay. Thank you.

Yeah. And I mean, like you could tell like the hype is really there, you know, even before Deep Sea came out, like you hear the guy saying, Waltman speak. It's like, you know, this could cure cancer. You know what I mean? Like this could do. And listen, I hope it does, right? Like I would like it to, but at the same time, the guy's raising money.

Like, it's a so he's got a- He's selling a product. Right. He is a salesman. What you have to remember is this is about business and profit. Yeah. It's like, I don't think there are any guardrails currently on AI. There's no regulation.

There's nothing that says who's going to stop it from being abused or used for something bad. Like, there is geo-a-a-a-a-y-y. AI, like you can use photos, upload photographs, and find out where it is using AI, like specifically like geospatial intelligence photos, things that shouldn't be available for those training models. You can find online that whether they were leaked or their old information or they're declassified, it doesn't matter. You're now using it to, you could use it to stock somebody. That's the model I think about because I deal with tech enabled abuse. This could be abused because there is no regulation. So. Yeah. And, you know, a few days back, Trump administration, it's funny how they released the Deep Seek stuff after Trump announced them like a $500 billion investment over the next. Yeah, 600 billion called Stargate, I think.

Yeah. And then Deep Seek drops like an A, like a basically, it's essentially at the same level as GPT4, maybe slightly better. And it cost them $6 million. And it was like kind of just like a. Yeah. Now remember, that's also propaganda. So it could cost significantly more,

but it sounds like it costs significantly less than the investment that Open AI has made or said they need to expand. Totally. Yeah, and if you look at it, like I've seen a couple of videos, like when you ask it about Tankman or Tiananmen Square, it's not letting you, it doesn't give you information or it will give you a little bit of information.

Sorry, this isn't available because it's out of China and stuff like that. So in terms of a security thing, threat. It's a Chinese app that's a generative learning AI, right? So if Americans are using it, I would assume this is as much of a security threat as a thing like TikTok, because we had the thing TikTok was going to be banned and then it didn't get banned. It got extended or whatever while. Yeah, that's a work in progress. And every day I'm like, okay, what's coming next? Like, I just take it day by day. I don't actually know what's happening with TikTok in terms of what they're going to do or

what they're not going to do. I do know they're going to divest of the bite dance. has to divest and sell it to a U.S. company. So it's not going to be the same TikTok. It's not going to be what the rest of the world uses and sees. So in terms of a national security threat, I think it's negligible at this point because look at the U.S. government using it as a tool of propaganda themselves. So we know the systems of propaganda, Jay and I do. Like this is U.S. propaganda. You don't think we engage in the same, excuse my language, shit that China does. We do. We just spot it better now because we are aware of it. More aware you make the American public about these issues via like these conversations we're having. Okay, so if it's such a national security threat,

you still have other tools being allowed in. You still have, you know, people being able to access Chinese apps and there's workarounds for everything. So if it's really a, it's a threat to your messaging more than it is to your security because the Chinese government already has a lot of data on us. They vacuum up every little shred of information they can get, but so does the U.S. government. So I guess you have to look at it from both sides and say, I'm not both sides. this, I'm saying you have to look at it holistically and say, what is a greater threat? Is it a greater threat to American messaging calling it a national security threat? They just want the algorithm. What will they do with that algorithm? What does the U.S. want that algorithm for? How will they use it?

So I think about it, like, I'm not a China Hawk. I'm not a Chinese expert. That's not my gift. But I can understand the bigger picture from the 10,000 foot view of like, who is being threatened by it and why is that important? What is the end goal? Look at what they're trying to achieve with it. So for China, like TikTok is global. So they've banned it in multiple countries and people still work around it. They create an account for another country and get a SIM card and a phone from another nation. Okay, that's easy. So I guess I don't think that's a good argument. You're not going to convince people that national security is part of the issue with TikTok. Now, with deep seek, I don't know. All the all the data collected by the app so far that I've seen goes to the Chinese servers. So long term, that's an issue.

sure. But censorship happens through all AI products. There's, there's censorship on all of them. There's bias in all the training algorithms. So you have to think about the data sets that it trains on creates bias within the AI chat bot, within the AI algorithm within the AI bot itself. Yeah. Oh, man. So like, yeah, they're trying to find a buyer for TikTok. There was mentioned about like Oracle, Microsoft Musk, the guy from Shark Tank, Kevin O'Leary, I think put together They're a group that's trying to buy it as well. Yeah, I don't know why, like you said, you mentioned it. There's so many Chinese apps in the app store that are not getting the heat that bite

dance is, you know what I mean? And at the end of the day, there's still Chinese own companies that own these apps. And it's, and again, like you said, even if the U.S., a U.S. company bought it, like, it's not like they're going to give a shit about our privacy. Nope. Yeah, like. Not once, not a bit. because there is no federal privacy law.

If you want to get into my niche area, this is when I study day in and day out. There is no federal privacy law. If they gave a shit about your privacy and data collection, U.S. data specifically is the most valuable asset they have. It's worth a lot. And if you devalue it, if it gets sold to other countries,

then they can't make a profit off of you. Every citizen has a certain amount of value number on them in terms of their data. And U.S. data brokers propagate all of that information. They resell it. They sell it to law enforcement. they sell it to back to the U.S. government. They sell it to foreign companies.

So you have to think about how, what are they trying to make a profit off of? What is getting devalued by having something like deep seek disrupt the industry or TikTok disrupt the industry? Because all the U.S. tech companies, especially social media platforms, whether it's, you know, Twitter, I will never call it X. Whether you have Twitter or whether you have LinkedIn owned by Microsoft, you have these mega corporations that own all your social media, you're renting property on their, you're renting property on their servers, basically.

You don't own any of that. And what are they doing with your data? Hasn't Facebook and meta violated our privacy year on year on year? And one of the biggest proponents to push TikTok out of the market was Mark Zuckerberg. So I trust him about as far as I can throw him. So, I mean, and I could throw him. But that being said, like, I don't trust any of them. I don't trust Musk.

Look at what they've done. Look at what they're doing. Like, no one can justify what's being done. I'm sorry. What's interesting about that is like Zuckerberg and meta is not like they're not really being mentioned in terms of like trying to buy TikTok, which I would think like why wouldn't they want that? Because it's a competitor. Yeah, but why not buy them? I think it doesn't serve him.

He's just he just wants to, I think they just want to break it apart and sell it off. That's kind of what they're doing with the United States itself. They're like, let's sell it off to the highest bidder. Okay. They're doing that with the company. So once they buy TikTok, what are they going to do with? They're going to scrap it for parts because it's not going to be the same app it was. They're not necessarily getting the algorithm.

The algorithm is where the value is, the algorithm. It's not the platform itself. We have video platforms. We have Instagram. We have, you know, YouTube is trying to do shorts and stuff. But, like, you don't have a platform like that here. So they, like, they want the video-based platform, but it's not going to be the same thing. Gotcha.

Yeah. So basically it's break it up and then. build it's something different based on that, what's the word I'm looking for, for that base of TikTok, something like that, but generic to us is what you're saying? Right, exactly. So that's the intention, at least from what I've been reading. Again, I'm not making these decisions. I'm not in the room and I'm not on the board.

But think about this. If Mark Zuckerberg wanted to buy it, he would. He thinks he can take that technology and put it into his own platforms. I mean, he's bastardized Instagram to the point where you can't even use it. It's non-functional. Like, he's made everything so AI heavy and so, like, he keeps adding features no one asked for. We didn't ask for that. None of the, all the users are like, what are you doing?

This is like impossible. Everybody's like, just delete it. It's just not worth your time. And I think what he thought would happen. I think maybe what they imagined would happen in meta as a corporation was, oh, if we get rid of TikTok, everyone will flood back to our platforms. Instead, what they have found is that people are moving over to more independent platforms. like Mastodon, Blue Sky, they're going back to YouTube to do videos. They're finding different means, smaller communities to go to in terms of social platforms,

rather than fleeing back to meta. There is no meta there. They can't see, no one can see what they post. So why would they? Hey, guys, it's Jack. I just wanted to talk to you today about a way that you can help support the podcast if you're not already. To support the channel is to become a Patreon member.

So we have Patreon memberships that start at just $5 a month. And when you sign up, you get access to all of our episodes ad free. That's the big bonus for that. I mean, we also do some Patreon bonus episodes for our subscribers. But this is the biggest and best way that you can support the Teamhouse channel and podcast if you'd like to. And we really appreciate that. So go and check us out at patreon.com slash the team house. Makes sense.

Yeah, and I mean, you see what Matt is trying to do with, like, the reels and stuff. They're trying to, like, kind of copy what TikTok does. But TikTok is, like, if you ever used it, it's kind of like mind-numbing. You know what I mean? It's just constantly giving you. You don't have a, you don't have a break. There's a little break in it. And I do agree with you in terms, like, Instagram has definitely become, like, a cluttered mess.

But, yeah, I'm interested. Like, why wouldn't he's got the money? Like, why not buy it for parts and own it? At least, at least own the name in the U.S. because I get it. Like, they're not going to get the algorithm. Right. So what's going to happen is they're trying to buy the U.S. side and the, and bite

the brand. They're buying the brand. It's essentially what it is. But like, is there enough heft in that brand? Or is it just that they want access to the data that buying the company would allow them? And if, if meta already has that data, why would they buy it again, right? So if you have the same users that were on meta products,

also on TikTok, which is very common. There's overlap for a lot of video users. They repost their TikToks on Instagram, which is what you normally see. So you have that cross-pollination, if you will. So I guess from a business standpoint, it does not make sense if he already has the capabilities with the other platforms he owns and he already has the data. Why would he? He was looking to eliminate it entirely. And what this does is that it basically waters down the brand of TikTok and says, well, it's not really as usable as it once was. The algorithm is not good. The stuff that I'm seeing is not good. The value of TikTok is like you see things.

You curate your feed, if you will. You see the videos from people that you like and want to see. Whereas with Instagram, it's just like random accounts that you've never, I don't know any of these people. I never see the people. I follow like a thousand people and I never see their, like seven days later I'm seeing a video. Whereas with the TikTok algorithm. So you're dealing with a very specific type of technology and a different user experience. So I think you would really have to dig into the brain of Zuckerberg.

don't particularly want to do that because it sounds rather horrifying. But I just, I think, I think they're willing to burn it all down no matter what the cost to everyone else, even if it's just technology itself. I don't think they care. I think they care about profit and power and money. That's what I think they care about. And everyone else doesn't matter. Let me ask you this. This is more speculative, I guess. Let's say American company buys TikTok, right? And the American TikTok users scrolling through TikTok, do you think they tell the difference between the algorithm? Let's say they leave it the same way, right? It's just constantly flooding stuff.

You don't have that thing where you're so right about Instagram where it's like absolute nonsense. Like on your, you know, it's like where the fuck did this come from? I didn't ask to see chicken videos. But thanks. I appreciate the thought. It's great. Do you think the American user will be able to tell the difference? Yes.

You think so? Yes. because the people, the anecdotal stories I'm hearing, I'm not currently on TikTok in the U.S. So I don't know what's, I deleted my account or at least I said it to private because I don't, I can't access it. So like a lot of people I deleted the app or I didn't update it or I'm just not accessing it right now because I'm waiting to kind of see. I like to wait and see because a lot of the times the things people say are going to happen don't happen quite the way they think. So, sorry, I went on a tangent. Get back to your point. What was your question?

I tend to ADHD. Will the American user, the TikTok user, be able to tell the different. Yeah. I think the experience so far has been, I went back on, like, I accessed it by the web once they turned it back on after like the 12 or 16 hours that they turned it off. And I was being served ads from Christian organizations, churches, Trump people. Like, and if you know me, I am, that's not my thing at all. I'm not involved in any of that. So I'm, I'm not interested in religious content. I'm not interested in ads from. brands that I would never buy from. So for me alone, the algorithm was off. Like, it was serving me content from people I've never followed. I don't know. Nothing of interest. So I

found it really interesting that the reset actually did more damage to my FYP or my 4U page than anything else. So that was just my limited experience with scrolling. I was like, I don't know what is going on here, but I think it was just a delayed, it was a little bit delayed for everybody with the service once you turn it off and then turn it back on again. It can take a little while.

But from what I've been told, there has been a change in a lot of people's content. So what they're being served. Interesting. Yeah. Jay, you got anything? Yeah, I was going to ask to dip a little bit into the world of your company. With speaking of these things, TikTok, Instagram, all these things. Are these things that you warn your clients again?

because of what they may be going through. I know each situation is unique, but you did mention, I think you called tech-based abuse. Yes, tech-enabled abuse, yeah. Do you give them a little point or something that, without giving away your TTPs, that the listener might be able to use to, you know, caution themselves? I think every individual is a little bit different in how they use the Internet

and how they use their apps. And for, depending on the extremity of their situation, So I would say, I know we always hate this, it depends. But depending on the severity of the abuse, the stalking, the harassment. So I don't know how much Demetri knows about my background. I've been working on in tech-based abuse and harassment and stalking cases for less decades. So I do open source investigations. So what I do is like map digital footprints all day and, you know, find where the stalker is, where the harasser is, where the threats are coming from.

So that's kind of my area of expertise in this. But I guess I caution people. to limit what you provide publicly to people. There's people who work on the internet for a living, who work online, just like I do, who make a living off these apps, who are, you know, whether you want to call them influencers

or maybe they have brand deals and they have to record videos, there is oftentimes the risk of you are public because you have to produce content, just like you guys produce a podcast. Somebody could decide to target you for no reason because they didn't like something you said on the podcast, right? There's sometimes rhyme and reason to it,

and sometimes there's not. So I always caution, especially if they're being asked, actively threatened, especially physical and online threats, to be very careful on the internet, to be careful on the apps, be careful what they disclose, to not disclose their location, to not, you know, film videos inside their house, to be very careful about, like, if they're traveling to not advertise where they are, because it's very easy for somebody like me to look at the background of your profile photo and determine based on the direction of the sun and the foliage

in the background where you are. So if you're as curious as I am, but you lack ethics, and you lack integrity, you are going to abuse that. So I think like anything in tech, there is both really great things about technology and really bad things about technology. It's just we have to put in that privacy and security and layer it in from the beginning. And I think too often we, in tech, we move on, I think it was even Zuckerberg who said it that it was like, you know, move fast and break things. And instead of thinking about the consequences of what could happen, they make it, break it and harm people along the way. And that's the problem.

It seems to be a theme these days. Move fast and break things. Yeah. It's unfortunate. Yeah. Yeah. My son hates when I tell this story when TikTok first came out, his mom called me and said, listen, I think you need to talk to Chris.

He apparently made a video with his buddy. They were young, really, really young, and made a video. And it was some, I think it was like a child. hugging contest or something like that with juice or whatever. However, they did it in two parts. And the first one was standing right in front of their street sign. And they were saying, oh, live from, you know, the town that they live in, the streets, the cross streets right there. And then the second part was right in front of his house. So you can see that house address. And so, you know, I had to give him a talk. So, I mean, that's a, I guess, a small, you know,

vignette about it, but obviously, like you said, there are people who this is what they do. They go online and they, so now if you balloon that out to whole units in China and Russia, you know, it's it's kind of easy to imagine the kind of stuff that they're gleaning from, you know, like take you times a hundred in a room somewhere in China, you know, and they're, the amount of data that they're pulling from us. Like with me, I know you said that you're not on it. I'm not on it by choice TikTok, but even I can't, like on my phone, because I have worked stuff on my phone, if I download TikTok, instantly, something will come up and say that my work email and everything else doesn't work until I take it off again.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's good at least that there, that does that, right? Yeah. So Shannon, you've worked with like influencers who have had like stalkers and stuff like that? Yes. It's like, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I have, it varies that type clients that I have, but I mean, I have one that's currently suing the federal government. So they filed two lawsuits in the last two weeks, and now they're being targeted and getting death threats. So, wow. These are people that run nonprofits. These are people that work in, you know, in social justice. These are activists. These are people who are unhappy with the current system and think the things coming out of the government in the last week have been appalling and harming people. So I get a

wide variety. I've had everything from a college professor being targeted by a student to, like that was one of my least favorite cases. But yeah, he put messages in her car. Like he accessed her cars. He hacked her car and was leaving her messages on her dashboard. So when I say technology is both a blessing and a curse. You really, again, you have to think about all the ways that we put AI now into these products that are already a bit insecure. So it's, yeah, there is no fix to this. We have let, we have opened Pandora's box and we have said, okay, let's see what happens.

And we are now seeing in real time what happens. So, and unfortunately, you know, people like my clients get harmed and government employees are going to get harmed by this because if they're on a list somewhere or, you know, if you've been vocal about anything that you disagree with, I think that you could be targeted, unfortunately. Yeah. And I know you teach your, you teach classes like basics all the way up. So I'm assuming then as technology advances, you have to modify your classes.

I'm sure you have people who are like, what the hell is AI, you know, when you're trying to teach them these things, which would be mean. So. No, I do. And I always try to come at it from how does the. end user experience, the end user being like Jason or Demetri or myself, like, how do we experience the technology? How do we use it in our daily lives? Do we use it because it's easy? Do we use it because it's accessible? Do we use it because we're addicted to it? I don't know. It doesn't matter what

your use case is, but I try to approach it from what are they thinking about how they use it and how do they approach it and what scares them the most about it? Because we don't want them afraid. We want them using it in a smarter way. So like it's just simple things like two-factor authentication. It's simple things like, what are they doing with my data? Just asking these questions and knowing where your information is going. You have a right to privacy. Everyone does. Like, I'm sorry, but every single one of us. I've heard people say they have nothing to hide. They don't, they don't care if they're anonymized on the internet. They could just put their full name. And I said, do you want your full legal name out on the internet on everything that you say?

Assume anything you say online can be put in discovery. Be put in anything you say. So you have to really think about the model of the world that we're living in now is very different than it was two weeks ago. It's going to change weekly, unfortunately. And the world that we're experiencing now is going to require more tools and more training and more briefings, if you will, on what's coming. Because the last thing you want is a scared population. What you want is an educated population. So I try to approach it as somebody who also uses the same tools and how I'm navigating that

and what that looks like. So, yeah. said educated population in my mind i was like yeah good luck uh you know what it is it's just like people are okay with giving like with giving up these things like their privacy for convenience and for you know it's just a lot easier they don't really think about it and like you said like yeah if people were really looking through your shit you would not be like oh what i don't care i don't have nothing yeah okay everybody care exactly everybody has somebody or something think they want to protect. Right. All of us. Yeah. So. So, oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, no, please. I was going to say,

and I don't know that you mentioned it or not, but Dee, you just talked about convenience. I was fascinated by the fact that in the weeks leading up to the brief shutdown of TikTok, how everybody like, I mean, it was like out of nowhere, red note, that whatever, that red note, like just came out of nowhere. Everybody hopped over to it. And then as soon as TikTok, was back. It was like everybody hopped back. Now, do you know, once they hopped over to Red Note, like, does their information stay over there? Like, if they created a Red Note account, like, does that ever go away? I'm assuming not because it's technology? As far as I know, I have not read the terms of service of Red Note, nor am I on the app. So I'm saying this from a,

I have not used it perspective. My understanding is that the data that is collected and the information provided is on Chinese servers because it is a Chinese app out of China. It is available in the app store though. So, you know, there's a lot of Chinese apps available in the app store. So there's a lot of things that you have to consider when you use these. And I guess people are, their argument is for the people that used Red Note or are on Red Note was they already have my data and so does the U.S. government, who cares? That's the reaction you're getting. And I understand that kind of attitude. I do. Sometimes I think it myself and like, but at the same time, I also have the national security background. And I'm like, I cannot tell you how many armchair national security

experts showed up on social media last week. And I was like, and suddenly, not only they're experts at, you know, football, but they're also experts at, you know, niche Chinese policy, like Chinese propaganda. I'm like, okay, I am not an expert at that. I don't claim to be. I have enough marbles in my brain rolling around going, well, that doesn't seem quite right. I guess my reaction to things is like, pause, think about it. What's the long term implications of this? Like, yes, I'm on TikTok, but I'm also on YouTube. What is Google doing with my data? So I like, I have to think about it from like, I have to be both visible in my role in my company, but I also have to be private enough that I don't have somebody showing up at my door. So like, I have to balance that. And it's a very fine line. And you

don't think I have a bug out plan. Oh, I do. Like, I have to prepare for these things because of the work that I do and because of the people that I encounter in my work. So I think from that perspective, like I, it's just one less thing I have to think about if I'm not on the app, you know, I can reduce my social media access and use and the tools that I have at my disposal and not expose myself on one more. So that's just my take. I'm not telling people what to do. They're going to make their own choices and they're going to be some people like me do the exact opposite of what you tell them. So you have to couch it in a way that's like, okay, so what does that mean and how are you using it and what are you doing with it?

And what information did you already put out about yourself? That's also there. And what will they do with it? And that's how I evaluate it. But again, I have a different multiple caps in my head for this kind of thing. And other people are just approaching it from like, I just need a tool. And I work on social media. I make money off social media.

What else am I supposed to do? Right? Yeah. Yeah. And I definitely don't disparage those who, I mean, if they went to red note, they went to red note because I know, like you just said, there are people who make their living, you know, off of social media platforms. It was just a weird social experiment to just watch it literally like lemmings,

lemmings off a cliff like tic-tok is gone hey here's red note and everybody just flooded and i'm still trying to catch up on like what the hell is red note like i thought it was a dating site when i first heard it like i had no idea don't get me started on the dating platforms i have a whole opinion about those i can only imagine don't even start on that i actually i actually heard some pretty wild let's get into it because i've heard some pretty wild info about the dating ads like especially for guys like i've had tinder and all that stuff but i don't really use them Um, they say for the average guy, it takes up to 200 swipes to get a match. And in those 200, one out of five of your matches will go on a date with you.

So you have to swipe a thousand times before you get to go on a date. Oh my God. Yeah. That's for guys. For women, it's obviously a very different experience because they could swipe right and they're getting a match. Yeah. I actually remember this like years ago.

I was on my friend's phone, a girl's phone, and I was like, let me swipe. Let me just swipe. I'm like, I'll bet you a hundred bucks. Every swipe, you'll get a match. And every single swipe, she got matched. So it's like a very different perspective for guys and girls on those dating apps. And you got to swipe a thousand times to go on one date. I mean, we could talk about the fact that a lot of the profiles on there are fake.

We could talk about that there's AI now embedded in those apps. So if you want to make the connection here, you've got bots operating on those platforms like Tinder, Bumble, Hinge, Raya, that's one. No, those bots that you're saying and mentioning, are those users are putting those on there? Or is that the app? Both. Both. Both. So what they don't tell you about their operating model is like they operate at a loss.

They get money from advertisements and premium subscription. So it's not really, when we are talking about scaling, when you're trying to scale a dating app, now each one has its own. you know, perspective and like ownership and stuff. But, you know, the goal is to keep people on the app for as long as possible.

So think about, you know, getting to those, the thousand swipes, Dimitri, how long are you on that? But I'm saying, you're on that app for a long time.

I mean, and you buy the premium in order to get, to be able to talk to somebody. So, and like, if the person you're talking to is a fake profile or a catfish,

which is also a common thing, you know, you don't know. You really don't know. And like also you have to look at it from a safety perspective. It's like I could be talking to somebody on one of those apps. I mean, I have fake profiles on there for work, but I don't use it for myself. I don't need to.

I'm like not interested at all. But you know, you see it and you're like, okay, is this real? Is it like you have to verify? Yeah. But you're on the app trying to verify that this is a real person you're talking to now. So it's like now you have that seed planted in your head and you're like, oh, okay, is this safe to do this? Like dudes, I think, I'm sorry, men in general have a different. safety model than women when we're operating in the world.

Because like men will go meet up with somebody that they don't know in a city they've never been to, random stranger with no security in place, like not thinking about, oh, I need an emergency phone call in the middle of this. I need your license plate. I need photographs. I need to make sure I have somebody on my speed dial in case something happens to me. Like these are things women think about men are like, oh my God, it's a hot blonde. Yeah, let's go.

Great. Let's meet for drinks at the bar. Nothing can happen to me. dude are you serious like you're meeting some random stranger in a bar like okay me i'm like you you do not want to meet me in a dark alley but i'm not i'm not the one but there's other people like you think like so delighted to like yikes guys yeah what i've noticed on tinder and this is i don't know if it's still the case this is my maybe two three years ago people you match with like i would say i honestly would say at least half would be

oh let's talk on like WhatsApp or something else or they'd be like like follow my Instagram and stuff like that and I'd be like I'm not doing any of that yeah yep that's what I found there was a good indication that it's like a catfish or a scam because scammers get on there too and they take you for money like that you trade photos on WhatsApp you know photos you know what's up you know what I'm talking about you trade photos suddenly they got something to blackmail you with I'm like oh yeah that's a nice try good luck with that yeah but you know but you know what I mean like We've all seen it. It's all, we've all experienced it.

It can happen to any of us. All of us have fallen for a scam of some kind. Smart, educated, capable people with brains have done it. Like, we've all done it. So. Yeah. Yeah, so don't go on Tinder anymore, Jason. No, that's not what I'm saying.

Whatever. Listen. It's your choice. What you do, just, you know, proceed with the framework of, okay, is this person real? Is it safe? How am I going to verify this? Make sure it's okay. to do so.

Like, don't be creepy stalkery, but like, you know, verify that they're a real person and operate under the guidelines of that. Mm. All right.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get Tinder again. Convanced me. Well, like, I have had a better experience with like, as a,

as a fake persona, I've had a better experience with Bumble, but, you know, do what you will. Bumble, oh, yeah, Bumble's the one where the girl messages first.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so freaking old. I'm gonna download that one, too. But they all cost money. That's the thing.

They all. They do. It's interesting. Like if you're a guy, right, and you have the free version of Tinder and you're swiping, you can probably have like, I don't know how much is 10 or 20 swipes before they're asking, you want more swipes. You got to pay whatever it is. I don't even. It's like I think it's definitely like 20 bucks a month or some shit like that.

Yeah. So they want you to just keep swiping. Exactly. To never go on a date probably ever. Yes. But also, like, it's hard to meet people. I don't know if you know. since the beginning of the pandemic, it's hard to go out and meet people. It's, it's hard to meet people in your community because, like, our, our collective trauma over the pandemic and the things, the way we operate has changed. Our societal practices have changed. Whether people want to acknowledge it or not, it's there. So, like, the way that we conduct ourselves in public is, I think people don't know how to people anymore. They don't know how to have a conversation. They don't know how to be reasonable. Like, you're encountering a lot of different factors, including in the dating model. So, like, I would not be on dating.

apps. That's just, that would be my choice. But again, that's for me. It's not for me to decide what's right for you. Right. So. Yeah. And to our listeners, you're getting charged for this free dating advice. Yeah. Exactly. And I've had success on dating apps where I've met like normal human beings, which is great. I've met some non-normal human beings. Yes. It was a pretty interesting shit. I mean, but it's interesting what they try and do. And like, they just try and get into that wallet. I remember I was around when Tinder was free, like completely free when it first came out and they tried to get scale and market cap or whatever. And then they turn that on off real quick. I get it.

Like, you mean, you got to make money, right? I mean, this is the capitalist hellscape that we live in. So yes, yes, everyone has to earn money. Like, I don't think any of us are like thinking, I just want to work till the day I die. I want to just profit till the day. None of us, most normal people are just like, I just want to make enough to have a good life. Like, we don't know work ourselves to the bone. That's not the goal here.

So I think, you know, if we're going to circle back to the AI, a very corporate term for you, if we're going back to AI and we're saying, you know, does this help our quality of life? Does it hurt our quality of life? Does it help us as workers? Does it help the company? Or is it all just smoke and mirrors to ensure that people buy into it? I mean, I don't know about you, but I've seen enough AI slop for a lifetime.

And that's what they call it. It's like the AI art that they're creating. But I mean, I'm sorry, the photos with people with like the hands with like the seven fingers. Yeah. Like now AI is getting really good. Don't get me wrong. The photography and imagery is getting great. It's really, really good.

It's improved immensely. But it also makes it that much harder to detect deep fake videos and deep fake images. And now you have AI voice to worry about. So like your recorded voice can now be used to scam other people thinking that it's you. So you have. Yeah. I have some some experience with that because Jack. came out with a Jack from Team House came out with a book, right?

And I'm like, yeah, we should make an audio book and he didn't want to read it. So I'm like, let's do like you clone his voice. Yeah. And have it do the audio book. Yeah. But even that was trash. Like if he goes over 5,000 words, like it degrades. Yeah.

But sometimes might miss words and stuff. So I'm like, I need to go through this fucking line by line. Why don't I just have the guy recorded himself? Yeah. If we're doing that. And you have to pay for this stuff. Yes. Oh, yeah.

That's the funny thing. It's like products that aren't even like dialed in. They're trying to sell to people. Yes. And it's I, it's I, they call it the minimum viable product. Like, whatever your go to market strategy is, like the minimum viable product that you can use to sell somebody. And that's what AI is. They, that at least in the versions that I have seen, like I'm not saying it's not improving, but at what cost, at what cost to people, to art, to society, to think about. about it. Like think about it from top to bottom. What is it doing? How is it helping? What can we do to make it better, not worse? How can we make it improve people's lives? Like you see AI being inserted into medical decision making with doctors and health care decisions. Do you remember United Healthcare? They had that AI bot that was making decisions about procedures, not humans. A bot, and it was over a 90% denial rate. And I'm sorry, if you have basic healthcare issues, just going to the doctor or if you're dealing with the VA and you have a bot telling you, an AI bot telling you what you can

and can't have done, even if it's necessary medication. Like, I was denied life-saving medication because of an AI bot. I had to, like, I had to go back. And this is stuff that I, like, I have chronic asthma. So, like, I have to stay alive. I need an inhaler to, um, I have allergies. So I have an apopen. These are medications that keep my body alive and my insurance denied it because of an AI. So, like, if you think about that is, is. Is AI helping or hurting or harming? Like, what are we doing? And why?

Crazy. Jesus Christ. Sorry, I like to make people not be able to sleep at night, and I think I've accomplished my goal now. So, like, listen, I can see really great cases for AI usage. But again, you have to weigh the cost, benefits, and you also have to think about how are we going to protect people from this? How are we going to insulate people?

How are we going to regulate this? What does that look like? We need it because just like with medication, you need regulation to make sure that it's not going to kill more people than it saves. Right? Like when you have medication, there's always a percentage of the population that can't take that medication for whatever reason. They have an allergy. They have a bad reaction. But you have trials for a reason before you approve a medication.

So what are we doing with AI that we're not testing it out in smaller populations, like in terms of smaller training models, smaller data usage? How is that helpful? Is it helping the process? Are we taking a look at it long term, what it's doing? I don't know. These are just things that I think about when I think about AI. So maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.

Time will prove me right or wrong, I guess. No, I think that's totally prudent to think of it that way, because it seems like the trials are just happening. It's just like throw a bunch of shit at the wall and see what sticks. And they're like, oh, my God, it's working. It's so great. I'm like, okay, but it's also wrong. Like, did you verify the facts?

Like there's people submitting briefs with fake laws and lawsuits and legal cases for court dockets. Are you kidding me? You use AI to find court cases. What? Like, what are you doing? Lazy. Yes, it's late. It is lazy and it's wrong.

So, yeah. Yeah, a lot to think about, guys, do me a favor. Check out Shannon Miller on Lockdown Your Life.com. This is awesome. And don't download. deep seek or do it who gives a shit no it matters it matters don't the only thing i'll say about deep seek is that you can download it and put it on inside a virtual machine on your computer so you can run it so it's not running on their servers it's running on your computer locally so that's the

one plus that i see to it is that if you're going to test it you can test it in an isolated environment whereas with chat gpt it's a little bit harder to do that so but because this is open source you can do that anyway that's all i'll say about that yeah shannon this is awesome again lockdown your life Um, Jason Lyons, his links are in the description. Lockdown Your Life.com will also be in the description. If you want to find any of the other guys, all the links will be in the description. Take a look at the description or the show notes. That's where it is always.

And the best place to support the show is Patreon.com slash the team house. And guess what? That's in the description too. Thank you. Thank you. Shannon, this is awesome. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.