The Team House - The First Black Special Forces General | Remo Butler | Ep. 358

Episode Date: July 5, 2025

This podcast features a conversation with General Remo Butler, the first Black Special Forces General. He shares insights from his extensive military career, covering his upbringing, challenging early assignments, experiences in Special Forces, and his role in significant operations like Just Cause. General Butler also discusses the evolution of military training, his historic promotion, and the importance of mentorship and addressing mental health post-retirement.Today's Sponsors:GhostBed⬇️https://www.ghostbed.com/houseFOR 10% off! Mando ⬇️https://shopmando.comPromo code "TEAMHOUSE" for 40% off your starter pack.For ad free video and audio and access to live streams and Eyes On Geopolitics...JOIN OUR PATREON! https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouseTo help support the show and for all bonus content including:-live shows and asking guest questions -ad free audio and video-early access to shows-Access to ALL bonus segments with our guestsSubscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseNew merch, patches, and stickers! ⬇️https://theteamhouse-shop.fourthwall.comSupport the show here:⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse___________________________________________________Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured__________________________________Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/——————————————————————Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouseSocial Media: ⬇️The Team House Instagram:https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_linkThe Team House Twitter:https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePodJack’s Instagram:https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_linkJack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21Team House Discord: ⬇️https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6SubReddit: ⬇️https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample"Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio"00:00 - Start & Origin Story 10:44 - First Army Assignment26:26 - Joining Special Forces38:44 - Operation Just Cause43:12 - SF Branching & Instructor Role54:11 - Modernizing SF Training59:10 - First Black SF General & RetirementBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Special operations. Covert Ops. Espionage. The Team House. With your hosts, Jack Murphy and David Park. Hey, everyone. This is episode 358 of the Team House. I'm Jack here with Dave.

And our guest on tonight's show is retired general Remo Butler. Rimo had an extensive career in special forces. He was the first black special forces general. He started off his career in conventional forces, served with C-37 down in Panama more than once, and then went on to a number of different commands, commanded the Special Warfare Center, the deputy at Ussesok, and commanded Special Operations Command South towards the end of his career. So there's a lot to talk about here. And, Rima, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Jack. Appreciate it. So your origin story, Rimo, tell us about Egypt, Egypt, Mississippi and growing up as a young man. Egypt, Mississippi. I was born in Egypt, Mississippi. Most people have never heard of Egypt, Mississippi. It's about 40 miles south of Tupelo. When I was a young child growing up there, there used to be a blinking yellow light. And the last time I went back, that blinking yellow light had been replaced by a four-lane highway. So there's no sign or anything that says you're now entering Egypt. The only way I know where Egypt is is because I'm related to most of the people that live in Egypt, Mississippi.

And so I'm picturing a small town, rural town in my mind. It's not a town. It's a rural area. A bunch of houses out there. I think there was a gas station across the street by the blinking light. That's all. I mean, we're talking real live, honest to God, small town, America. And so it sounds like you grew up around like a lot of like cousins.

brothers and things like that running around the wilderness over there. Well, that's kind of true. I left Egypt when I was about five years old. And I told you early about me and my cousin were talking. And my wife and my son asked me about my past. And one of the things, one of the vivid memories I have is we used to have hog killings once a year, every fall. And my grandparents had a big farm and they had hogs, cows, pigs, everything.

And all the family, the cousins, the cousins. cousins, uncles, the aunts, everybody would get together. Now, I was a kid back then, so as kids, we used it as playtime. We just had lost their minds, had a great time together. And the folks went out and they'd kill two, three big old hogs, and they had big, huge tables and cast iron pots to clean them. And they would take them and cut them up, butcher them. You know, unlike now you take it to the butcher shop, they butchered themselves

and put it in the smokehouse. And that was the meat for the winner. Wow. And, you know, it was good. And I remember when I was little, I was about three years old. My grandmother had this butcher knife. To me, it looked like it was about three feet long. In reality, it probably was six, eight inches.

And my grandma would give me that butcher knife and she'd tell me, she said, baby, go out to the smokehouse and cut grandma a piece of lean. And she would use that for seasoning, the meat and whatever she was cooking. Well, I would go out there and I'd take that knife and I'd cut me a piece and I'd eat it. then I cut a piece to take to her. And then, you know, so I really enjoyed that. It was a great childhood. You know, we were in the country. We were country folks, but it was a great childhood.

And you were a third generation soldier, right? Tell us about your dad and grandpa. Yeah. Well, in reality, my father was my stepfather. Okay. And his father was in the military. His father was an E8, retired as an E8. And my father was in, they lived in Texas.

And during those days, there was not much for black people to do in Texas. And he told me all the stories about him washing dishes and working in the arena during wrestling matches and so forth and so on. And he was in the military and he was very proud to be in the military. He was a medic. And I asked him, I said, dad, why did you become a medic? He said, I always wanted to be a doctor. He said, but my family couldn't afford send me to school. So, you know, I did the next best thing. I joined the military, his brother, who was smart, joined the Air Force. And, you know, he taught me things as the father does. You know, you look at your father and that's your hero.

And I knew how hard he worked, how hard he studied. And he never had to give up mentality. And all those things just kind of bled off to me. And so as you get older and you become a teenager and you're going through high school, are you already thinking about the military at this point? No. Fathers thing from my mind. Vietnam was going on, remember?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, so military was a father's thing from my mind. The biggest thing that happened to me when I was a senior, junior or senior, West Point was making all the military cadets were making an effort to be more inclusive. So they were going out looking for students that met all the criteria, had the grades, who could get in. Well, I did. And one of my faculty members or what do you call them, the principal or somebody from school recommended me. So they came and they talked to me and I was pretty excited about it.

I was okay, West Point. It was me and two other guys. So we had all talked about it and, you know, we were kind of excited. So the day I was supposed to go and meet a congressman from Kentucky because my father was stationed in Fort Campbell. we're supposed to meet this congressman from Kentucky and he was going to be the one to recommend us to go to West Point. Well, I got up that morning and put on a suit. It looked good. Always looked good.

But I looked real good this day. And my father, typical military guy was up about 5, 30, 6 o'clock having his coffee. And he said to me, he said, well, what are you all dressed up for? I said, well, dad, today I'm going to meet this congressman from Tennessee from Kentucky. And he's going to recommend me for West Point. father didn't say nothing for a minute he looked at me and he said you know you my son i love you i said yep he said you won't like west point i said really he said no he said you're not the kind of guy that goes to west point stick with regular college i went in my room man i took the coat and tie off

went to school my other two friends were there wearing their coats and ties and they said hey man and i said i'm not going what do you mean i said well you know my father told me that he didn't think I was cut out for West Point. And they were like, oh, okay. And one of them decided he wasn't going. The other one, the only way he had to go to college was going to West Point. And he went to West Point and he became a West Point officer. And at the end of the day, I can say this.

My father made the right decision telling me that. That it wouldn't have been a good fit for you. Yeah, yeah. You know, back in those days, they did a lot of hazing. Yeah. And I wasn't the one to sit around and take that. And so what school did you end up going to? I went to Austin P State University in Clarksville, Tennessee.

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it was great. And I had the privilege of going there. And this is one of the things that helped me more than anything. When I got there, Austin P had been integrated for two years. Two years. And I remember when I checked in the dorm, it kind of amazed me how, you know, all the black guys, we got black roommates. And one of the guys told me, he said, let me tell you what they do.

he said when you come in the dorm they take a pencil and if you're black they take that pencil put a dot by your name so the next black person comes in they look for a dot and they put you all together as roommates and i remember the football program the coach he was adamantly against it but you know he was forced but he would only have x number of blacks on his team and uh you know that lasted for a couple years and then as time passed and those old people left died whatever they happened to them the school became more normal and i said it helped me more than anything in my career because one minorities were a minority we probably were 5% of the population when i went so consequently what do you do you meet people you get out of your comfort zone you stretch out you meet people

you know and and i and i had to look up one time because i was starting to talk like this here and uh you know so you have to do that and uh you know i had some great friends learned to drink moonshine with them and i had some great things happened there and i'll tell you one of things that i was on the football team at austin p and this one guy came in they called him big red he said to me and he was from oh high and he said hey we're going over to this house for dinner And it was just a regular house, but they served dinner. They cooked. I forgot there's a name for it, but I can't think of it.

So we go in there and, you know, a bunch of us football players, probably about five or six of us. We walked in and, you know, you can feel the atmosphere change. Looked around, but I was with, hey, you know, five white guys on my team. We were going to eat. So the lady or the owner called Red over. Looked that and he said something. And Reds her, back down, we're leaving. So we all left and I went, what happened?

He said, he didn't want you in there because he was black. But those guys who were part of the team that I was on circled around me and would not let that stand. And that teaches you a lot about people. And that affects your judgment on people in the future. So like I said, it was a learning experience for me. And one of the things I tell my father, I said, you know, I said the good thing about that was when I,

went through ROTC and everything at Austin P. I have a lot of white friends. And when you come in the military, guess what the majority of the population was? Like, consequently, I already knew how to deal with John. Hey, guys, it's Jack. I want to tell you guys about the sponsor for today's show. It's Mando.

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Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Smell fresher, stay drier, and boost your confidence from head to toe with Mando. So you commissioned in what was it, 1974? 1974. And your first assignment was South Korea, a field artillery unit? Camp, tell him Korea. First of the 15th field artillery, 105. Tell us about what that first Army experience was like.

It was the worst experience of my life. No, seriously. I got there, and it was one of those times when they had a bunch of new lieutenants, I think it was three or four new lieutenants came in and they sent us to the units. And I got put in my battery. And you know, it doesn't take long. You've all been in the military. After a while, everybody understands what the real pecking order is.

Who's good? Who's okay? And who's not so good. And there was another guy there and who happened to be a West Pointer. And we became great friends. And it was between me and him for one and two. The day I'd be one, tomorrow he'd be. You know, it was a rivalry, but we enjoyed it.

And there was no animosity. And we had some other guys there. And everybody understood who was who, what was what? Well, during those days, we got what we called a 60-day OER. And they stopped those. So the first day there in the unit walked in and they're getting an IG inspection. And back in those days, you know, IG inspections made it or break. So I was in there young, good looking, charge.

good looking, charming. And the IG said to the commander, he said, ah, you know, this, this is all messed up. Your arms room is messed up. Commander looked at me and he said, Lieutenant Butler, the arms room is yours. Got it. Went to Lenthala and said, oh, you're security. Security's bad. Key control is messed up.

My commander looked at me and he said, Lieutenant Butler, key control is yours. You know, I didn't know. I was clueless. So we went through and I think I took on about three or four. things that they had failed. And I did business the only way I knew how, the way my father had taught me. I know I didn't know what was going on. I know I didn't understand the military, but I'm going to find out.

So I did into a program, as I say, I did a deep dive into security, physical security, arms room security, maintenance, all that stuff. And I learned it. I learned it so well I became the de facto battalion expert on it. So units would have problems. They'd call me in. So it was time. after two or three months we had a re-inspection. And out of all those things that we had failed,

all those things we had failed, I had two minor deficiencies in the next one. You know, so I felt good about that, you know, everybody's pat me on the back. Hey, you know, you're this, you're that. And a little later 60 days come up. We got OER. Now, remember, we're all new lieutenants. You know, we're all friends. So we get our OERs in the orderly room, and we all run out, back behind the orderly room, pull out our OERs. So my buddy, Mark, the West Pointer, pulls out his and he got a 90-something, 1-90-something, whatever. But it was what he deserved during that time. A couple more guys came out and they got what they deserved. And we had one guy who wasn't as good. He got a no way we are. I opened mine up. I, mine was one point higher

than the guy who was, let's just what we just say jacked up. One point higher. So everybody's going And all we know, this must be a mistake. It's got to be a mistake. But we're all lieutenants. You know, we don't know. So the West Point, Lieutenant, says, hey, we need to talk to the XO because this is obviously a mistake. So he went and got with the XO and the XO came over and he looked at.

He said, ah, boss made a mistake. This is a mistake. You need to go talk to the boss. So I grab my OER and I walk in, knock on the door. And he said, nine his desk. And he says, Lieutenant, what can I do for you? I said, sir, I'd like to talk about my OER. He looked at me and he said, I want to talk.

tell you something, Lieutenant, I spent a lot of time working on that OER for you. I said, well, thank you. I appreciate that. But we were looking at our OERs and mine is just one point higher than Smokatellis. What do you mean? I said, we were out looking at, well, let me tell you something first, Lieutenant. Your OER is a private, personal thing. You don't share that with anyone. That's yours. You don't show it to anybody. You don't share it with anybody. I'm like, okay. And here comes drum roll and he said and i didn't give you that oeer because you were black and i said where did that come from yeah yeah now remember now i'm a second lieutenant i've been in the army maybe three months so i didn't know what to do so there was a black captain there and this was a time when black

officers did not like to talk to younger black officers because they were afraid or what people would say he called me in he talked to me said listen he said i i knew that this was going to happen. You know, if you had worked for me, this is what I would have given you, blah, blah, blah. I said, okay. But basically, I can't help you. He understood that. You know, he had a career. Well, there was a captain there, special forces captain. He was the headquarters battery commander. So he called Milt. I showed it to him. We talked about it. And he was a great guy, very quiet, you know, as they say, a man amongst men. And he says, no, this is not right. And he says, now let me tell you what you need to do.

And he broke it down for me. He laid it out. He said, one. And this was back in the early 70s. And they had thing called EO equal opportunity. He said, you need the formal formal EO complaint. And I was a little concerned. I'm like, well, how will that affect me?

And he's like, well, he's already stuck to tell you what else we're going to do to you. So I did it, filled it out. And I was surprised at the number of people that gave me statements. Some of my commander's friends pulled me to the side and said, listen, you know, I hate that he did that to you. He shouldn't have did that. And I'll write a statement for you. Okay. So I got all these statements from other officers.

And the battalion commander knew who I was because I had worked for him and helping to get all the arms rooms and the physical security squared away for the battalion. So one day, I'm out helicopter lands. And during those days, a helicopter landing was a big deal. So I got a guy came by and said, Sir, the colonel wants to see you. Okay. So I go up and tank commanders there with the Guardi, the Vardy commander.

And he says, I got this EO complaint. And he asked me about it. And so I told him, just like I told you. And he said, well, I've talked to several officers here. And they all speak very highly of him and your knowledge. I said, well, that's good. he said so what i'm going to do is i'm going to get you out of here i'm going to take you down to i believe it was camp davis at that time i said why he said i want to protect you from him i said well sir

let me explain something to you number one i don't run from anybody it's not my nature i said i know what i've done and i know what i can do i want to stay here because i'm not going to run and he looked at me you know and he gave me that look like he's dumb ass old baby and you know he said He said, well, he said, if you stay, I can't protect you. I said, I understand that. I said, but I'm willing to take that chance. And I'll tell you, this is what really, really got me one of the good things about it. Some of my commander's friends pulled me to the side and said, listen, we know what happened to you.

And he's going to try to get you back. And if you make a mistake, he's going to crush you. But we're going to help you not make any mistakes. And they did. you know, if they thought I was doing something wrong or whatever, you know, they would pull me to the side and let me know what was going on. That's what society needs, people to help each other like that. So on one side, I'm having the worst time on my life. But on the other side, I'm meeting some great people.

And this captain who was Special Forces, I mean, he really, really helped me, help me put together the packet, help me work. There was a, on the DMZ, there was a company that I was the, uh, F-O-4. He was also a special forces captain out of Vietnam. These guys were super. They were down to earth, and if they said it, it was so. And I grew to respect them. So after his time was up, he changed command, he called me in.

He gave me an OER. I said, I put a lot of thought in this, and I'm thinking to myself, you said that the last time, you're moron. But anyway, he gave me my OER. It was not what I thought it should be, but it was very close. and I didn't feel I had grounds to fight. So I accepted it. But thanks to Captain Brady, he told me how to do, to reclamation the OER.

And this guy told me something. He said, I based that on OER's last year. And the points were down much lower. So I put that in my paperwork. And it's still up there. I'm sure that's public record now. And the Army said, okay, based on what he told you, And this OER are, we're going to put, we're going to stamp on this, that this is based on an average of whatever, of 130.

And so it, overall, it didn't hurt me. But it taught me a lot about people. Now, I look at that same situation now. If I had had the knowledge then that I had now, my company commander, my battery commander would have been selling biscuits on the street. Because he'd been gone. Yeah. And after that experience, you joined special forces. in 1977?

Yep. I went to Fort Hood, Texas. I was full of, finished with field artillery because I figured, you know, this is a racist and I'm sure there are other racists in field artillery, I went out.

I went to Fort Hood, Texas, and that's probably the best move I ever made because I had a battalion commander who was just tremendous. I had a company commander who was super. And, you know, they liked me. And the, uh, the battalion commander had already designated,

me that I was going to be one of his company commanders. And, you know, it was all great. We all had a good time and I had, you know, great lieutenants I was serving with. And it was just a great unit, first and fifth cab, Florida, Texas, just a great unit. And we got a new company commander. And guess what? It was special forces in Vietnam. And he was made from the same mold, these other two special forces captains were. And I admired and respected him. And one day we're talking, And he says to me, he said, Remo, he said, you're the kind of guy that needs to be in special forces. And I said, well, how do I do it? He said, first, you need to do a 4187.

He said, go over to the S1 section, put out a 4187 for special forces and I'll endorse it. So, okay, I did it. I was in the motor pool about two weeks later. And I was in a 1-1-3 working on it. And one of the mechanics comes over and he says, sir. The colonel's down here and he's looking for you and he's mad. I'm like, oh my God, what did I do? So I go and see him.

I say, hey, sir, how are you doing? And he takes the 4287 and he holds it up like this. And he says, Rimo, what the hell is this bullshit about you going to special forces? Yes, sir. Why? Well, you know, sir, I met some guys, special forces. He takes that 4187 in front of me, tears it up. And he says, Remo, you're a good officer.

I'm going to make you a company commander. You don't need this bullshit. Special forces will ruin your career. What do I say? Yes, sir. So I went back and I saw my company commander and I told him what happened. He went, ooh. He says, okay, this is what we're going to do.

He knows what he said, we are going to do. He said, I got a friend that works in Branch. I'm going to call him. and I want you to call him after I talk to him and tell him you want to go special forces and he'll make it so. I was like, oh, this is pretty easy. Okay. So he did it and he said, okay, he gave me the number. I called up and he asked me a question.

He said, can you swim? I said, yeah, I can swim. He said, okay, you'll have orders in the next couple months. Fortunately, my battalion commander had built a change of command. So I had a new battalion commander. And then I get orders going to special forces school. So I go to Fort Bragg and sign up for sports with special forces. And let me tell you what, it's one of those things that you'll never forget.

We started off with X number after the PT test and a day. We had lost about 50% of the class. And back in during that time frame in 1977, what was the special forces? I don't recall if they even called it the qualification course at that time. But what was that training pipeline like at the time? It was called the Q course. Okay. The first part of it was extremely physical.

In fact, during the first part of it, phase one, as they called it back then, I lost about 20 pounds. I mean, you know, we were out humping, you were humping that big, heavy rucksack all through Camp McCall, the Uwari Forest. And there was not a swamp that I was not intimately familiar with. And when you did land navigation, you had to cross the swamp going out and cross. the swamp coming back. It was purely a physical course. But it tested your desire how much you really wanted to be in special forces. And during those time, they had a seven-day, seven-night trek where you were by yourself, just you're in your rucksack and your food and you are a forest. And in the evening, the cabri would come up to you and pull out his mat. And he'd say, all right,

You are here. Tomorrow I will pick you up here at 6 o'clock in the morning. And you're talking 15, 20 kilometers cross country at night with a heavy-ass rock on. So yeah, you lost a lot of weight, but guess what? I made it. And I remember one night I was walking through and I saw a strobe light. You remember the strobe light, right? And it was just blatant.

So I said, oh, somebody's hurt. So I walked over and I saw this guy. He was laid back on a piece of wood. a log, had his feet propped up, had his rucksack, was eating some sea rations. And I said, hey, man, you're all right? He said, yeah. I said, what's wrong? He said, nothing. He said, I just made a decision. I said, what's that? He said, tomorrow morning when it's light, I'm going to find the first road, and I'm going to sit on the side of the road until they picked me up.

And that's the kind of course. It was it, if you didn't want to go to SF, you thought you went to BSF, that course told you that you didn't want to go SF. And at that course, I'll tell you, Colonel Charles Beckwith was in charge. Lieutenant Colonel Ola Mize was his deputy. And we had major Big Budge Williams there. Let me tell you what, those guys didn't let you slide through. You earned it. And then phase two was what we call the classroom phase. And that's where you're learning all about special forces. And phase through was Robin Sage. And of course, when we graduated, they told us. They said, listen, you don't know Jack about special forces right now.

Yeah, you got a beret. Yeah, you're going through an assignment. So getting in your mind that you don't know Jack, when you get there, your first team is going to make you a special forces officer. And I left there, went to third and seventh in Panama, and I had the best team sergeant you could possibly get a guy named Ray Magsby. And when I walked into the team room, the guys were sitting around at about 3 o'clock, he told them, he said, y'all go get a cup of coffee. Now remember, I'm coming from the conventional army.

We didn't do that in the conventional army. So I'm like, okay, what the hell's going on? So he sits down in his chair and he looks at me and he said, lieutenant, like it was a bad word. He said, I want to welcome you to ODA 13. He said, just want to tell you, you don't know shit. He said, but we're going to teach you. He said, now, but I want you to make a decision. He said, I want you to tell me if you think you're going to run this team

or you're going to let me the team sergeant run the team and educate you on how the team should be run. Well, to me, that seemed like a no-brainer. I look at him. I said, Sergeant Maggibee, I said, do the team sergeant. I want you to continue doing what you're doing and teach me. And he said, all right, the rest of the guys came over, he introduced me to him and told him.

He said, this is our new lieutenant. And we're going to make sure he's the best lieutenant in the unit. Time passed. And this is when we had, um, arteps. You remember the art tips? And we had several arteps and he was there with me. And we have an art tip coming up. And I look up and Sergeant Magsby's getting ready to go on leave.

So I say, uh, said, uh, Magsby. I said, uh, that Artep. And you're getting ready to go and leave. He looked at me. He said, die we, you can handle it. He said, and beside, I got Sid, I'm leaving with it, Danny, Don, blah, blah, blah. And he said, they're going to make sure you pass. But you got it.

I said, okay. Well, sure, lo and behold, we passed the R-TEP. We did well. And those guys taught me about being special forces and about being a special forces officer. They built the foundation that I grew on. I love that your team sergeant was yelling at you in Vietnamese. Yeah, they all, you know, all those guys were Vietnamese, Vietnam vets. Yeah, yeah.

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And thank you for supporting the companies that help support the show. Ghostbed.com slash house for 10% off made in the U.S., made in Canada. Shout out to our brothers in Canada. They rock. Check them out. I love Ghostbed. Thanks, guys. So, I mean, 3-7 down in Panama, I mean, everyone I,

speak to kind of describes it as this sort of like glorious paradise, the best time of their life. What was your experience like that down there as you kind of ingratiated yourself with your team and you start coming through the rooms? It was great. For me, it was a learning experience.

But it was a great learning experience because they believe in working hard and as some of the guys in the team said, and partying hard. And they put the work in. I mean, they put the serious work in. But when they were off duty, they enjoyed Panama because

How often do you get to go to a paradise? Yeah. Yeah. And the thing about it, Ben, your team was your de facto family. I knew every guy on my team. I knew his wife and I knew their kids. And they knew my wife and they knew my kids. Every weekend, we usually did something as a team together.

Whether it was go to the beach, meet in somebody's house and cook out, fish, whatever. but it was a team effort. And I think that's one of the things that Special Forces has lost over the time is that a team family. Any other, I mean, before we move on to the next thing, any particular experiences down in Panama? I mean, 1977 is a little bit before the counter-narco stuff, I think. So it was more counter-Marxism that you were focused on, right? Well, it was, we worked with the PDFP, the Panama and Defense Force back then.

We sent some MTTs to different places. but mostly it was in local training we did. Working with the PDF. Yeah. And so a couple of years later, 1980, you're off to Fort Benning? Right. What did you do there? I went to the advanced course.

It's been a year in the advanced course. And when I left, it was time for me to have a company command. And they sent me to a unit called ITG, infantry training group and everything that i had read or knew about the military then was it to have you needed to have a t o and e company command this was t d a company command and i will say this i had never seen so many black commanders as i had when i was out working with the uh with the training group infantry training group and the uh basic training unit there um i'm not saying it was an accident i'm not saying it wasn't an accident but that's the way it happened

I was very fortunate. I met a guy there who was my commander named Sid Shacknow. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Concentration camp survivor and the best leader I've ever encountered in my life. Wow. So we got there and, you know, he didn't say much. He just kind of walked around and looked.

But he identified me as one of the players. him and his wife took it upon themselves to start mentoring me and my wife for the future. And I commanded and I did good job for him and I was rewarded, my O.YARs and so forth. And it was time for me to leave. And I could have went to Fort Benning to the, as they call it, bedroom four, had one of those soft jobs there, air condition. And he came to me and he said, listen, Captain Butler. He said, I'm having some problems with my motor pool. And I know you're, you're in command, you're going to leave.

I'd like you to stay on and be my motor officer. And I was kind of like, uh, be out here in Harmony Church as a motor officer or building four. And I said, okay, sir, he said, now I know you don't know anything about vehicles. He said, but I'm going to send you to the motor officer school. And he said, now in saying that, he said, I'm probably going back to Fort Bragg They're starting Eusa sock there, and I'm going to be the first chief of staff. And I'll get you back. I was sold.

I was going. I said, okay, went and ran the motor pool, did a tremendous job at the motor pool, had some tremendous people that worked for me, had a motor sergeant. And this was back in 1982. And I still communicate with this guy today. Master Sergeant Bill Frank, a great guy. I mean, he taught me everything you wanted to know about a wheel vehicle or a track vehicle. because he knew it. And he was a great guy. Well, I did it, finished. And right about the time I'm

finishing my tour, I get orders for Fort Bragg, North Carolina. And that's where I went. And guess who I was working for? So that's, what, around 1984 that you're back to special forces? Yeah, yep. And so where did Mr. Shatnow set you up? I worked for him. He had me there. I set up a, he had a, he had a conference. He had a conference. the commander's conference. And of course they naturally set me back to Fort Benning to prepare the commander's conference for it. So I did the commanders conference, all the commanders came, and if you have to prepare a commander's conference, it's not fun. But anyway, I did it, went back to Fort Bragg, and about the time I was there,

I got moved to First Battalion, Seven Special Forces Group, as the three. And we were getting ready to start this program where, every six weeks we would go down to Honduras and spend six weeks come back, spend six weeks, go back to Honduras. And it was called, I forgot the name of it. But anyway, it was a big exercise. And being a three, moving all those people back and forth, back and forth. It was taxing.

But I did it. And I survived it. This is when, you know, seventh group is getting involved in like the Contra Wars down in Central America. Yes, it was. I'd love to pick your brain a little bit. I mean, what was your impression of that conflict and sort of the special forces mission down there? Well, let me, I'm trying to phrase this the right way because, as you know, a lot of that stuff is still class back. I would just say this.

We were influential in the training of the Contras, but not only the Contras, we were influential in the training of the Honduran military. because the Honduran military served as a blocking force to keep the Contras out of Honduras and out of El Salvador. And we also worked with the Salvadorian Army. And at that time, there were a lot of guerrillas forces going on down there. So we were teaching them, you know, guerrilla warfare, how to beat him. It wasn't hard for us, but for them coming from the culture that they came from, it was difficult.

But I think at the end of the day, we did a, we did a, pretty good job. And then you took command. You went back down to the C37, right? No. Oh. No. I took over Charlie Company 27.

Ah, okay, okay. Yeah, Charlie 27. Cool. So tell us about your company commander time in SF. That was me. I was company commander. Yeah. And this was Fort Bragg rather than Panama, right?

And so I imagine it was more of this preparing, you know, like you were saying, every six weeks for these missions down to Honduras. We were doing a lot of missions in Central and South America during that time. And we were always, always busy going somewhere, getting ready to go somewhere. And the guys loved it. When an SF soldier is traveling on a MTT or TDI, he's happy. He's just happy. And we enjoyed it. Had a great unit.

And we did a lot of different things. Care to describe any, Remo? I... It's all right. I guess I could say this one. Sure. I was the first one, I think, to work with the company. My company was the first one to work with the Congress.

That must have been a pretty interesting experience to, you know, your team, you know, Americans and probably some Latinos on your team, I imagine, the seventh group. Yeah, but it was different back then because... we all supposed to spokes a little bit of Spanish. And traditionally we would take, you know, we had a bunch of Latinos from seventh group. You know, we had Mexicans and Puerto Ricans and Cubans and everybody was there. So their job was also to teach us Spanish. And I remember we went there and we worked with them one time for about six or seven, six months, I think. And we came back and we had to take Spanish tests.

And everybody's expecting our Spanish to be off the charts. It wasn't. Why? Because the people we were working with were mostly undereducated or uneducated, and we spoke like they did. Yeah, so we spoke colloquial, colloquial Spanish. Yeah, not Spain Spanish. Not Castiano. Yeah.

And then 1988, you get a position J3 at Special Operations. Command South? At Sox South, yes, I did. Yeah. I was fortunate because my third battalion commander, Colonel Chuck Frye. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So when I went down there, you know, it was like old home week again.

And I went in and held that position. I was only a major, a fairly new major. And I held that position down. And then finally, Dave Wilderman, we called him the Beast. He was an 05. He came in, and I became his deputy three. And this is sort of like in the run-up to Operation Just Cause, right? Yes, it was.

Can you talk to us about like the situation in Panama deteriorating? The situation was going down. And I guess we weren't really getting a lot of good solid guidance. And when that guy got killed that night, you know, that was the first thing. He got killed. Are you talking about the checkpoint that there's a soldier that got killed? Yeah. People started to wake up and take notice.

So from that, we had meetings with all of the players. And it was decided upon that we needed to do something. So at that point in time, we started working on Operation Blue Spoon, as it was called. And that was the invasion of Panama. And we planned for it, rehearsed for it, planned for it, rehearsed for it, and finally executed it. And, you know, it's hard to say, but it's hard to say. came off pretty flawless.

There were some mistakes, some accidents, but it was a good plan and it worked. What was your experience like on D-Day and H-hour when all of that went down? During that period of time, I was working with, I was moved to another mission unit, and we worked out of Howard, out of Howard Air Force Base out of one of the hangers.

And, you know, so I'm working with professional guys, and we're doing our jobs and monitoring this. situation and mitigating risks as best we can. I mean, I think that was the largest airborne operation we did since World War II for sure. I mean, we had 82nd airborne jump. Rangers jumped in. And, you know, obviously Manuel Noriega was removed from power.

And what was sort of the aftermath on your end after the context? Well, you know, and I'll say it's one of the things we didn't do real well was plan for the after. So you had a lot of people kind of running around doing their own things. And it was a time where we used civil affairs and Psiops. And they came in and they helped tamp down the protest and figured out the right message to send to the Panamanians. You know, that one thing about it, I got to take is it's kind of humorous. Yeah. It doesn't matter how well you plan.

there was a place called DeVit and it was north part of Panama and the commander of the unit there was a hardcore guy so we loaded a mission up with a bunch of guys on helicopters headed up there to take it over and you told him on the way up said listen all the weapons should be stacked up at the north end of the runway if that's the case guys with land go in take control if there aren't weapons there or they're stacked up on the other end, you've got to go in hot. Well, some kind of way, we had a team already up there, got confused. And now they don't, it's backward. So the helicopters that are flying up there loaded for bear will be going in hot. But we wanted them going in cold. So what they had to do, we had to launch a helicopter from Howard Air Force Base flying at Mach 1

because we couldn't get Cammo with the guys. So this helicopter had to fly at Mach 1 to get within range of the helicopters and tell them, hey, don't go in hot. Don't go in hot. It's all taken care of. Yeah. But those things happen.

It's called the fog of war. Yeah. But we handled it. Yeah, the deconfliction. Uh-huh. And then we get to, what was it about, 1991? You did some instructor time? Yeah, I, I, um,

was trying to get back to Fort Bragg because, you know, I consider myself an action guy. I wanted to do what the action was. And I went to Fort Bragg and I saw some old friends of mine there and they said, oh, yeah, we can use you. Well, Branch said no. And Branch was punishing me because I was supposed to go on a fellowship to, I think, Harvard or something. for one of those schools. And I didn't want to go. So I got, I did something else. I got extended in, in Panama for another year. So since I came back to Bragg, Branch was making sure that, no, I wasn't going to do that. And they set me up to the armed forces staff colleagues,

you know, to be an instructor. It was great. I'll tell you why it was great because it gave me time to decompress for a year. Remember, I've been burning the camera at both ends for years. So now I got a chance to decompress, go to the gym, lift some weights. hang out, drink a beer or two or some scotch. And it was good. It didn't realize it, but it was a blessing in disguise. Was it around this time, maybe it was a little a few years prior, that special forces became a branch for officers? 1987 or 85, we became a branch. Okay. So did that impact your career at all about getting moved in and out of special forces? Yes, yes, it did. It made it better because I didn't have to worry about going to the infantry side. I stayed with special forces.

It didn't hurt me. Oh, I see. And so the next stop for you was commanding First Battalion Seventh Special Forces Group. Yep. What was your battalion command like? Oh, man, it was tremendous. I had some great officers working around me. I had good team leaders.

In fact, I'll tell you who one of my team leaders was. His last name is Fetton. Brian Fenton? Yep. And, you know, back in those days, you know, we identified Brand, Brian as a girl. go-getter. And immediately, you know, he did his team time. And what did you do to good guys? Once they finished the team time, you bring him up to the free shop. You know, he wasn't happy, but, you know, it was great for him. And like I said, I had a great sergeant major, command sergeant major,

named Rich Tudor. And let me tell you what, that was the most loyal, hardworking guy you could run into him. So I was fortunate. And operationally, I'd be curious. I'd be curious, to ask you, you know, how had the operational environment in South and Central America changed for Seventh Group from, you know, you started off in the 70s into the 80s, and now we're in the early to mid-90s? We had gotten what we call Mission Creek. We went from doing some local training to we were actually working counter-drug up in Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, all those places. You know, we had camp set up. Our guys were working MTTs working with DEA.

And we were tremendously busy. We were always busy. And it was good because it kept the guys were on edge. Yeah, and it gave them something to do, too. I mean, there wasn't a lot happening at that time other than, you know, the Gulf War. The outdoor was picking up, Honduras, Nicaragua, people in Costa Rica, all over central and South America. We had teams. They kept you guys busy.

How did, so how did you kind of round out your? command time at First Battalion. How did that wrap up? God, I wish I could tell you. I don't remember, but we were doing stuff and we were having fun in doing it. And I couldn't tell you the last mission that we did, but we did something. I believe you. And from there, they put you up as the chief of staff at Special Forces Command. Oh, God. Yeah, that was before I went to the war college, yeah. Okay. And so was SF Command relatively new at this time, or had it been around?

It was. The whole system was new at this time. Yeah, yeah. Remember, we just became a branch. So tell us a little bit about SF Command and kind of like how it was going through that growing experience at the time. It was, as you say, a growing experience. Everybody was trying to find their lane. Remember this was the first time this was ever done.

So everybody's trying to find their lane. And the big part was how much control did SF command want to exert on the groups? You know, SF command, you know, was the next level up from the group commands. So how do they exercise their command without trying to take over? Right. How did they end up delineating that, like who, what those lanes are? Well, you know, it came out pretty good. they delineated it with the help of the command sergeant majors and some of the general officers that were there.

And they kind of laid out, okay, these guys should do this and this group should do this. And they put everyone in the lane. And sometimes it worked out perfectly. Other times you had to make changes. So their flexibility was the key. And, you know, also I should ask you, because this is sort of a, I think a bit of a theme through your career. career. From point A to point B, how are you seeing the Army itself change where, you know, integration was kind of new when, well, I shouldn't say that in the Army integration wasn't new.

But some of these things, you know, black soldiers coming into some of these higher officer positions, was it more of a new thing? How were you seeing the Army change? Well, the Army was changing a little bit because when I was in Fort Bragg, I was there serving with at the time when I was a group commander there were two black brigade commanders in the 82nd and but the coscom commander was black so yeah but in sF remember we've never had a lot of black officers in s and then you were off to the command and staff college no war college war college i'm sorry yeah yeah um and where was that at carlyle pennsylvania how'd you like it out there it was okay. It just got cold and a lot of snow in the winter.

And being a South America kind of guy, I wasn't used to that. Was that another kind of like period of rest for you and your family a bit? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because after that, they had you as the SWIC commander, the Special Warfare Center commander. Before that, I went to 18th Airborne Corps for about six, seven months as the SOCorp, Special Ops Coordination. also. Oh, okay, cool. And I worked with 18th Airborne Corps and some of their exercises and so forth. So now you're kind of getting to see like the big machine and how it really works. Yeah. And I was I was already on the, uh, the 06 command list. So I was just kind of waiting for,

you know, my commander come out. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so SWIC commander, what was that like 1997 or 2008? 1997 or 2008. 1998. Yeah, 1998. There were some interesting things happening at SWIC at that time, too. that you guys were like, well, Sephardic had already been stood up. Cephalic started to come around towards the tail end of that time, maybe. But what was going on like training-wise in SF at that time? How were you seeing that change?

Well, it was a transitional period. And I'll tell you why. You know, in SF, we have what I call the keepers of the tab. I went through the last hard Q course, those guys. And we were getting soldiers were different. We weren't getting as many combat arms guys to come into SF. And we were getting, you know, quartermasters, medics, whatever. You take an infantry guy, put him on land nav course, he can probably do it.

You take a quartermaster guy or a medic and put him on a land nap course. Might be a little harder for him. So we had to look at how we were training. And, you know, General Tagney used to tell me, you know, you're in charge. the training you know how to train figure it out so we started looking at some of the things we did during training and one of the ones that we looked at is land navigation why do we have such a huge land navigation failure well when you got guys who don't land navigate regular it's hard to teach them but again i'm i'm asking you this question because you were an s f guy how often did you go

out in the middle of the woods looking for a stick i i mean not not often. Yeah, that wasn't a mission. Yeah. But that's what we had these students trying to do. Go out in the middle of that swamp and find a stick. And it makes sense? Well, I had some good old retired sergeant majors that like to talk to me.

And, you know, one of them said to me, you know, sir, I spent this many years in SF, I've had eight tours in Vietnam. I've never had to find a stick in the middle of the woods. He didn't say it that nicely, but that's what he meant. So we looked at what we were teaching and how we were teaching it. Normally, when you're looking for something, it's a major land feature, a road intersection, let's not forget the church or a main highway. So we started looking at changing our course to incorporate common sense into how we were teaching

these students, not lowering the standards, but teaching with common sense. And we started doing that. And it, you know, we went, our pass rate went from like 42% to 45%, which is not high. But you look at that and you say, that's putting six more guys a year in SF on a team. So that's how we kind of looked at that. And we always had to be thinking of innovative ways to train because, you know, you keep doing it the same way over and over again. All you do is do the same thing over and over again. So we looked at things how to modernize training, how to update it.

training and I was very fortunate because like at swick at that time we had a lot of retired sergeant majors worked in there for me and let me tell you those guys were not shy about giving you advice were any any other major training changes that you recall from that time frame there was one swim test remember I told you when the guy called me up he said can you swim I said yeah I'd go to the first day of training, and there'd be five, six hundred guys there. And some of the guys looked like they were born and raised inside the gym. And they'd knock out the PT test. Well, a lot of guys didn't knock it out, so they were already gone.

And these guys, like I said, looked like they were born in the gym. And they put them in the pool, and you know where they went? Right to the bottom. Yeah. So me and my sergeant major looked at it. and talked about it. He said, you know what? You know, a lot of these guys would be good SF soldiers.

Now, the majority of them were minorities. And we said, yeah, how can we fix this? So we talked about it. A lot of folks did a lot of looking. We talked about it. We came up with a concept. If you make it through selection and we didn't flunk you for the swim test, and you made it through selection,

which we were only like a 40-something, some percent pass rate. Remember that. We will bring you back two or three weeks early, teach you how to swim. Once you learn how to swim, you start like everybody else. You get in the pool, you do that 100 meter swim. And it wasn't a lot, but we figured it every year we were putting about a split 18 back into the force because of these guys who would have been gone. And now they were here. Now, when you talk to people about a split 18, that's six guys. in the macro sense that's not many. But when you're talking about an A team

and each company you've got six teams and you've got two teams that are three-quarter strength and one team less, yeah, those six people make a difference. Yeah. Rima, out of curiosity, you know, because there's always been talk about whether the swim test was intentionally, like, racist. If the point was, like, do you believe

that the swim test is a functional part of that? I'm going to go back to the, first story I told about Sgt. Major in Panama, who said, when they were looking for S-F guys, all they wanted you to do was be able to squeeze that trigger. Right, right. You know, and there were several of those when I went to third of the seventh in Panama. We had several guys who couldn't swim. And they mostly retired as command sergeant majors in special forces.

So I think that answers the question. Yeah. Yeah. And from there, you became the deputy at Yusasak. Yeah. How did you like that job? It sucked. Good thing about it.

I worked for General Tagney. And I don't know if you know General Tagging, but he's a great guy. And he's a funny guy, too. People wouldn't realize it, but he's a funny guy. And, yeah, I was there, put in my time and learned a lot. And, you know, one thing General Taggart was good about, he called me over. He said, hey, everyone, come here. Yes, sir.

I'm supposed to go to this event tonight. Yes, sir. You're going. But working with General Taggna was fun for me, and he was a great guy. He was a great mentor, and I just enjoyed working for him. But the job itself, you didn't really like the staff office aspect? You know, find a combat arms officer who's a warfighter who likes staff job. Yeah, absolutely.

And so by this time, around this time frame, are you also getting looked at to pin a star on? When I became as chief of staff, I was already on the list. Okay. Yeah, I did, you know, yeah. Tell us how that came about because, I mean, as you mentioned, you were the first black special forces general. You know, like I said, I've always took the hard jobs. Somebody told me that. Take the hard jobs.

I always took the hard jobs. And my resume stood on its own. And all I said, you know, somebody gives me a fair chance, who knows. even saying that I didn't believe that because number one I had a mustache and you know people would talk to me about general I said I'll never make general I never make general and I was at the gym one day and there was another general officer there friend of mine and we're just chewing the proverbial fat and he says yeah you know Remo I'm leaving I'm going here and here and you're going to replace me and I'm thinking of myself no that's a general slot and I'm not replacing you

And, you know, we considered the conversation. And then I started hearing the rumors later on that I was on the GO list. And finally, somebody let the cat out the bag and told me. So there was nobody more shocked than me. My father, I knew I was, you know, good officer. But for him, he thought the epitome of my career would be me going to the war college. And for me to invite him down and then my mother to pin on my star, you know, that was it. That was it for me.

your dad who's a retired sergeant major. He was retired command sergeant major. Yeah. About what did your dad join the Army? God, I couldn't tell you. I was in the early 50s, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, that's such a tremendous amount of change that the entire country, much less the Army went through during that time frame. Okay. And so the position you did take, you know, you became the command. of Special Operations Command South. Right. So you're the man in charge now. And, you know, as we've talked about

through all these progressively, you know, more responsible positions that you took throughout your Special Forces career, and now you're kind of the Special Ops commander in charge of the region. What was that experience like? It was a tremendous experience because one,

South American, Central America, belonged to me. We had troops almost, every country. And I used the opportunity to go and visit, talk to them, meet all the ambassadors. And I established rapport with all the ambassadors I met. You know, some of them were became personal friends. And then there was the ambassador to Colombia, Ambassador Patterson. She was a great lady. Yeah, she's nice. When the airplane got shot down and the people were taking as hostage, it was during Black History

Month. And I was in, I want to say, El Paso, giving a speech and me and my aide were on the plane and he says to me said sir he said this is what happened in Colombia and the ambassador wants to talk to you we're on a plane I said okay well you know tell them to let her know I'll call her when I get to Puerto Rico and said okay so we fly back to Puerto Rico and I arrived late and they ambushed me my unit was there Sox South was there my staff was there and they said sir Sir, we got a C-130 on the runway waiting for you. Smokatelli has been to your house and packed your luggage,

and you're going to Columbia. So we fly out, get to Columbia, Ambassador Patterson briefs me, what's going on. And it's one of those things where nobody really knew what was going on. So we had to get there, had a good staff with me, and we started looking for them. The thing that we made the most inroads with was the Columbia, government. And I got to work with informed President Uribe, which was a pleasure. And I worked with the General Ospina, who became the commander of the Colombian military.

These were some great people. And our job was not to take over the mission, but to assist them in doing the mission. And that's what we did. And of course, a couple years later came to fruition. They rescued everybody. But the Colombian military was tremendous to work for. The people there were tremendous. And I just totally enjoyed working with that group.

And Ambassador Patterson at the embassy, I mean, there's not enough I can say about her. Just to clarify for our viewers, you know, Rima, you're talking about the four American contractors. They had a counter-narco mission, you know, taking pictures of the drug plants. and they got shot down by FARC, crash landed, and the pilot, yes, the pilot was executed on the ground and the others were taken hostage. Right. That's correct.

About how long was it after the crash that you guys got boots on the ground? About a day. Yeah. Because it was out in bad guy land too, right? Yeah, yes, definitely was. Yeah. Anything else you recall? from those like kind of like they must have been some frantic days you know busy days long days

um as you guys were trying to get up to speed and try to identify what happened all the days were frantic they started early and they ended up late and the issue is this you have americans but they're in a sovereign country of columbia how do you go to get them back without trying to take over Colombia so it was a political day sure and like i say you learn to work with people you assisted where you could and when they said, okay, we got this, you had to be smart enough to back off,

but observe what was going on. That was the challenge of that mission. Anything else happened while you were the Sox South commander that you'd like to talk about? I spent three years there as commander of Sox South. And we did a lot of things there. One of the things that I really liked was when we did Cabanis. with the Argentinians.

Oh, yeah, yeah. It was great. And we had six or seven different countries working with us. And, you know, it was a great opportunity for them to know us and for us to know them. And, you know, different years later, I'd be traveling through South or Central America. And I'd always have somebody come up to me and say me, you don't remember me, but I was this when you were there at Cabanas. And, you know, that's always good.

Anything else from Sox South? No, it was just a great time. So tell us a little bit about retirement. You went all the way up to general. How did retirement come about? How did you feel about that personally? I was the chief of staff of Sokow. Had the pleasure of working for General Brown and Admiral Olson.

So it was good. But having spent all that time in SF, having over 300 jumps, having carried a heavy rucksack for many, many years, my body was breaking down. At that time, I had five knee surgeries. General Brown had this thing. Once a month, he would do a unit run, about three miles. And as the chief of staff, you know,

my job was to be on the unit run and finish up front. And I like to lead from the front because that's where leaders are in the front. But every time we do that for the next week, I'd be in my office. I sing my knees. I sing everything. Take, taking a Tylenol. And my body was wearing up.

And, you know, I spoke to General Brown about it. And, you know, oh, you got it. You know, you can do this. And people were talking to me about the next general officer promotion, the major general. And, you know, anytime somebody talks to you about promotion, you know, it excites you. But then I thought about my body. I said, you know what, if I did it and I took it, that would be three more years that I'd be killing myself. And I decided that I couldn't do it no more and I was going to retire.

And Remo, I should point out because we didn't talk about it earlier that, like, you were a big-time gym guy at the back in the day. And I've like met guys who were like a Navy seal in the 1980s. And like, they will mention your name like, oh yeah, Remo Butler could bench press 400 pounds. like yeah and in fact you know in Puerto Rico I had to I had to sail the platoon with me and one of the things I used to do was once a month them guys would do this crazy run and crazy swim and I was right there with them and let me tell you I do it and I'd suck pond water for the next week so anyway when it got to so calm you know the same thing was happening and you know I decided I said you know what I can't

I can't do this like ego says take the promotion yeah but my mind said no so I started putting my name out there that I was going to retire and company started calling me and saying when you put your paperwork in call us let us know and I became retirement eligible on one February at time in grade one February 2004 to February 2004 I submitted my retirement paperwork and uh you know a lot of people were against it you know people were talking oh you still got a lot to offer you know we got plans so forth but and that's fine but what a about what I want? What about me? What about my health? So I retired and a week after I retired and took permanent leave, I was in, I was in Kuwait working for Halliburton. And I stayed there

and I came back at the end of June to have my official retirement ceremony at Socom and I went back and I spent the next two and a half years in Iraq working for at that time Halliburton, which changed over to KBR. And, you know, it just found me a niche in the contractor side of the world. You're working like logistics? I saw that's all Halliburton was and KBR is logistics. And I used to tell people, from the moment you wake up in the morning and go in the bathroom and use the bathroom, to the time you turn your light off at night, everything that has touched you during the day has came from KVR, all the meals you've eaten, the gas reviews, the air conditioner,

that you have, the fans, electricity, everything. We provided everything. And you did that for, you said, two or three years? Two and a half years. Two and a half years. And then what did you get into after that? Oh, man, I left there, left KBR. Well, no, before I left KBR, I did that.

I came back to the States and they made me the business development guy here in Tampa. I finished that up. And I think I went to work for a company called SOC. it's a security company. I worked with them for about a year, a year and a half, and then I worked for Honeywell for a little while. Then I went back to SOC, and I just worked for a lot of different companies in the Mideast

and the U.S. consulting and so forth. And I enjoyed it because it gives you a different perspective. What was that perspective as opposed to being an Army officer? Well, from being a general, you know, everything is catered to you. but when you go out as a consultant, everything is not catered to you. And you have to do the nudge work yourself. And the other part was this.

The biggest one was this. When you get out of SF, SF as people are different. If you tell an SF guy, I want you to put a coat of paint on that building for me. When you come back, that building is going to have three coats of paint on it, new windows, new doors, etc.

You tell a civilian guy, I want you to put a coat of paint on that building, you might get a coat of paint. And you have to learn who you have to watch out for, what they're going to do. And everybody, you know, like I said, I love hiring military people because they would go above and beyond what was expected. Was the transition difficult from, you know, retiring? No. Right.

And real quick, though. Limo, I want to ask because, you know, one, you mentioned sort of, you know, your enlisted personnel really kind of, you know, teaching you and boosting you up. And also your fellow officers and sometimes even senior officers. with the camaraderie, the mentorship and things like that. And that is something that's very different, I think, in the military often than the civilian world. But also in the military, like I was never an SF, but in Ranger Battalion, you would have, like, young lieutenants come in. And some of them are like, I'm here to make my career, right?

My first tour as my PL, so they would drive and drive and drive without listening to the platoon sergeant, and whatever. And then there were other ones who you knew were really on your side. and it was often like somebody had to pull these officers aside and say, look, these guys will make you look good if you help them. But if you come down on them all the time, what you think you're doing is actually going to be the opposite of what you want to be done. How was that like learning to, or you obviously seem to have a knack for it,

but I'm sure you've seen officers who didn't really know how to work with her enlisted before. Yes, I have. And I used to tell my team leaders when they came in for their team, need a briefing. I say, listen, bud, you don't know Jack about SF. And of course, they'd look at you with that shock look on their face. And I say, your team sergeant, and I tell them what her team sergeant was, he has this experience. And I'd read it out for him. And he's done this, this and this. And this guy, the ops sergeant has done this, this and this. Your warrant officer has done. So what you need to do is you need to stop thinking you're in charge and listen to what they say. Now, sometimes they'll say

stupid stuff but you got to be the mentor for that you got to say uh we're not doing that or if you got a real bad question come see me i'll help you sort through it or my sergeant major will and you had to teach these guys that there were a couple officers that i had to uh let go of because they had that attitude uh one of them if there was a rambo knife out for sale he bought it would go to the field and he'd have these special high tech humma humma boots on that had the tread that was unique. And one time I went out in the field and they were out there and I saw his boot print and I followed them into their campsite. So how did you go? How'd you find this? I said, you're stupid boots. That's a unique print. I've also seen officers and fortunately I knew them

who did that. They are team sergeant. I got you. I'm in charge here. And a few months later, you saw them signing out of the unit. Is there a way though that, you know, because officers obviously, because they've done a tour with a regular unit where they are in charge a lot of times. And then they come to a unique place like SF where how do you get them aside, you know,

how do you like, you know, sort of bring them on and say, look, you are the officer, like the responsibility and authority is ultimately with you. But these guys know what they're doing

and you can learn from that. I'll tell you how I did it. Just like you just said. You know, I made sure they knew the qualifications that their team sergeant that some of the guys on the team had. Yeah. And I let them know, hey, this guy's been doing this for 30 years. Yeah.

You know, you've been doing it for six months. Right. You know, listen to him. He's going to tell you what to do, how to do it. If you get confused, come see me. Yeah. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, but you're absolutely right.

I've seen officers who get there and they come in because they're going to make their mark. Uh-huh. All you stupid NGOs, you don't know nothing. I went to college and I'm going to say what we're going to do. Right. Yeah. And then what about the mentorship and the alliances? You know, because for, you know, friends of that, you know, the officer who gave you the bad NCR

for his friends to come to you and say, you know, they definitely were, whether they were putting themselves professional at risk, they were certainly sort of putting themselves personally, the friendship-wise, at risk. How is it for officers, you know, whether it's working with, seniors or juniors or whatever to, you know, to create that same sort of camaraderie instead of an era of competition. You know, that's a personal decision that everybody has to make. I've worked with guys who are extremely competitive.

And they would tell me, oh, you did this? You did it for six weeks. I'm going to take guys in. We're going to do it for eight weeks. Okay. That's fine with me. You know, because it kills their people. You have to worry about your people.

The thing about it is this, officers go to a team for one to two years, right? Enlisted guys are on the team for their whole career. So if I start burning the candle at both ends, the enlisted guys going to get burned out pretty quick. And the officer's going to be gone somewhere else. Yeah. And people have to understand that. So you've gotten into a number of different things in, you know, retirement years. And you were telling me that you've been recognized for some of your work, kind of passing that on mentoring.

others. What are some of those endeavors you've gotten involved in? Mostly mentoring is my biggest one. I feel that I've been successful. I feel that I have a lot of knowledge and I take that knowledge and I try to spread it. And especially even today, a lot of young officers call me because they've read the paper I wrote in the war college. And they thank me. This is, sir, you know, I want to thank you for writing that paper. You know, I read it, saved my life, et cetera, et cetera. That's what makes you feel good. you help someone become successful. And do you want to tell us about Black Ops?

Yeah. Black Ops was started by a gentleman named Ruben Ayala. And what he does is with Black Ops, he takes the stories of Black Special Forces, Rangers, Marine Force Recon, Seals, and Latinos and females. and he brings those stories to the forefront. And I'll give you an example. One of the guys I used to big work for me was Asante Raider.

And everybody knew it. Let me talk about it. And I found out another guy I knew was also a Santer Raider who's black. And nobody ever said anything about him. And I asked an old retired Sergeant Major Graham. I said, hey, Sir Major, this guy was an Santer Raider. He said, yes, sir. You didn't know that?

No. There are things people don't talk. about. So what Black Ops does is tries to take these people and bring them up to the forefront so everybody can see. So like Rubin said, you know, he watched Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo and all this kind of stuff, but he never saw any Latinos doing that. Now you have kids out there who are very impressive and impressionable. For them to want to go and be special forces, it would help if they saw somebody to have been special forces

who were successful who looked like they did. Do you agree? Yeah. When I was in special forces, many, many times I was the lone black officer. And then when I wasn't the lone, I was the senior of black officer. Remember now?

I'm just growing up just like these other guys are. So he felt that it was important for people, everybody, minorities in special forces, whether you're black, Latin, Asian, or whatever, they're females in special lives. You too can strive for this. Now, the black office, they say it's a platform created for the purpose of telling uncommon stories through film, podcasting, and documentaries. And where can people find it? I mean, if they search? You know, that's a very, very, interesting story.

It's on YouTube. Type in Black Ops. They are looking at, let me see something here. They have a road show that they've done. They've done one in Atlanta. They've done one here in Tampa. They've done them in Ohio and other places. And they have this platform called blackops.tv.

It's a streaming platform that's dedicated to telling his stories. Is there anything else that you've been working on that you'd like to tell folks about? Yeah. Being a better person. You know, when you've done everything that I've done and being soldiers, especially special forces guys, we never want to admit that we have weaknesses, and we do. And the biggest thing you have to do is a special forces soldier is say,

you know what, I might need some help with this and get it. And what shape or form did that take for you as a gentleman who's retired now? My wife, I always tell everybody she's my heartbeat. My wife told me that I had PTSD and nobody else that ever said I had PTSD. My wife told me. And of course I was looking for that river in Egypt, denial. And I wouldn't admit it. admit it. And finally, I went to the, you know, with her pushing, I went to the doctor and said,

you know, I think I might have PTSD. And they did the little test and he came back and you know what the doctor told me? Yeah, buddy, you got PTSD. But once you get diagnosed with it, you have to fix it. Sometimes you can fix it yourself. Sometimes you need help fixing it. We, special forces guys, used to look down on anybody that we considered weak. And if you thought you had a mental issue or something's going on, with your family, blah, blah, blah, and you know, you couldn't handle it, you were just weak. But that is not a weakness.

That is a strength when you realize that you have an issue and fix it. What were some of the therapies that worked for you to fix it? The biggest one for me was my wife talking to her. her. My wife wanted to be a psychologist at one point in time, but she left back and she took another route. And she's very, very intelligent. She's doing a lot of things now. She's one of the smartest humans that I know, smarter than me, even though she wouldn't admit that. But she's the one. And she, as they say, she talked me off that ladder several times. You know, and I think communication is her greatest asset. And I'm happy if it wasn't for her, I'm not. If it wasn't for her, I'm

might not be here. I mean, Rima, we've covered a lot here in a relatively short period of time, considering how extensive your career is. Is there anything else that, like, I left out or that you wish I asked that you'd like to talk about before we get going tonight? I know. You know, I'm really hurt that my Ranger buddy never asked me as I have any experience with the Rangers. Did you have experience with Rangers? And wasn't... Oh, funny you asked. I was the Merle's Marrata Award winner in my Ranger course. that's amazing I still got the compass

yeah what was your ranger school number I don't know yeah I don't come on I was just going to you know bust your balls if you went to the last hard class which I imagine you did

I did it was 1977 yeah that was probably the last hard class and I'll say the worst thing to me at ranger school was I left 3-7 in Panama to go to ranger school and all the rIs knew I was a special force guy. So I was called special feces, special fools, you know, all those cute names. That's funny. So I used to know a desert phase back then, too, huh?

I did not go through the desert phase. Oh, okay. So they, all right, they got rid of it. Yeah. Other three phases, the city phase, Florida phase, and the mountain phase, that was plenty. Yeah, for sure. Rimo, are you still thinking about potentially writing a book? I am not only thinking about it I am going to. And I'll tell you, why. My son, for Father's Day, he gave me this little book. And he put a note on it. And it said, Dad, you know, I really don't know much about what you did in the military and your life. And this book he gave me asked questions about you. And I started writing. And some of the stuff I was

writing surprised me. So at that point, and oh, yeah, by the way, my wife was told you, me I should write a book too and several other people. So I've decided that I'm going to start writing a book. That's fantastic. Yeah. I think it's great. Record some of this history down. Yeah. Yeah. Rema, where can people go to find you? I don't know if you're still consulting or not, but if they even want to, they're interested in some of these like mentoring or speaking events, where can people go to find you? Radio. They should show up at your house. And, you know, I have my phone number. No, no, you don't have to give that.

Yeah, don't give that out. Or email me. Do you want to give out your email? Like, are you okay with the public having that? Yeah, I don't care. Okay, go ahead and let folks know where they can find you. My email address is R-E-M-O-B-T-L-E-L-A-O-T-L-O-E-N-O-A-O-L. Great.

There you go. You can go talk to the man himself. Rimo, thank you so much for doing this interview and speaking with us for a couple hours. Hey, Judge. My pleasure. Enjoyed it. It was great. And, you know, Rangers lead the way. Do we have any questions, Steve? Okay, no questions. We're all good. Okay, Rimo, thank you, man. And have a good night. Yeah. Take care, man.

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