The Team House - The Life and Death of a DEVGRU Operator | Sydney Mulder & William Negley | Ep. 285

Episode Date: June 29, 2024

Support the show here:⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseBill enlisted in the Navy in January 1997, and graduated Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL (BUD/S) training in June of 1998. Bill was a highly decorated combat veteran with numerous awards throughout multiple overseas deployments. His awards included three Bronze Stars with Valor.https://sound-off.com—————————————————————To help support the show and for all bonus content including:https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse-AD FREE AUDIO-AD FREE VIDEO-Access to ALL bonus segments with our guestsSubscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseOr make a one time donation at: ⬇️https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouseTeam House merch: ⬇️https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963Social Media: ⬇️The Team House Instagram:https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_linkThe Team House Twitter:https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePodJack’s Instagram:https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_linkJack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21Team House Discord: ⬇️https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6SubReddit: ⬇️https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSampleWant to sponsor the show?Email: ⬇️[e-mail]#devgru #sealteam6Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Hey guys, it's Jack. I just wanted to talk to you today about a way that you can help support the podcast if you're not already. To support the channel is to become a Patreon member. So we have Patreon memberships that start at just $5 a month. And when you sign up, you get access to all of our episodes ad free. That's the big bonus for that. I mean, we also do some Patreon bonus episodes for our subscribers. But this is the biggest and best way that you can support the Team House. channel and podcast if you'd like to and we really appreciate that so go it and check us out at patreon.com slash the team house special operations covert ops espionage the team house with your host jack murphy and david park hey everyone welcome to episode 285 of the team house i'm jack murphy here with David Park. And our guests on tonight show are Sydney Mulder and William Negley. William served as a CIA

officer and now is running sound off, which we'll talk about in depth. Sydney is the widow of former, you know, SEAL Team 6 operator, Phil Mulder. And you know, we worked together on an article

for Yahoo News a while back about, actually about this very subject that we're going to talk about on tonight's show. So this is sort of a complicated story to tell, but we're going to do our best to meander through it. So I think we should start off by pointing out, you two are half-siblings.

And that's how you know each other. But your story interweaves in some unexpected ways as time goes on. So let's start off with your origin story. Like, how did you guys grow up? Where did you come from? How did this begin? Well, I mean, and in some ways, you know, I think we can sort of tell the like Negli origins, like just contextually kind of where like who we are familially.

Let's just say it that way, right? Sure. So, yeah, for context, Sydney and I have the same dad, Dick. technically. I will say whenever people ask, I always just say he's my brother because we're only four years apart and we grew up.

And it's not like we were, we didn't go up in different, my dad did not like have a second family in Idaho or whatever, right? He just remarried really quickly. Yeah, and had the other kids. Yeah. Myself being one of them.

So San Antonio, you know, small pond maybe big fish small pond is a fair way to say it grew up hill country

a lot of time at the ranch a lot of time you know when I was running for office my consultant wanted to have the photo of my dad giving me my pistol at two years old

like be our like Republican primary photo so that was just like you know grew up with reloading tables on our kitchen counter, right? Like, or reloading machines. So very much in that culture, community, that I know we both love very much. And then, you know, we all kind of, my dad has had six children, one passed away. We all kind of, for a while, when our separate ways, California, Pittsburgh, and then where Sydney and I's life in a very like in hindsight, like super weird in hindsight reconnected is I was going to University of San Diego,

Sid had just graduated college and she was like, if you go to San Diego, I'll move with you, which is like, in hindsight, really weird, but at the time it was like, cool. But, you know, through that upbringing San Antonio, I think the relevance to the rest of this discussion is I was called to service from zero. Like, I can't explain it. I don't, you know, certainly was not my mom's influence, right? know your your mom was a youngian psychologist yes so she's so she's a youngian analyst and she tells the story this is just like so my mom god bless her you know she's like saying to her 15 or 16

year old son like what is your soul call you to do and i'm like i'm like i think i want to go into the marine corps blood makes the grass growth yeah exactly yeah i mean it's like it's like that and But you can't, like, you ask the question, like, so she tells the story now of, like, going away and, like, calling her therapist and being like, oh, my God. But, like, this is not the, you know, but then I was, I was a senior in high school on September 11th. So, like, this innate call for me was doubled down upon, like, many, you know, of our, you know, of our. generation. So went to San Diego thinking, I'm going to go, like, through college and then going to the Marine Corps.

And then that changed really quickly. Because Sid comes with me. Do we want to go? So Sid comes with me. We're like living in Pacific Beach. And... Crown point. Yeah, like the first Friday

were there, Sydney says, hey, I know these girls from Dallas, and Texans like to hang with each other. So she's like, I know these girls from Dallas who are going to this party down the street of

like some guys from Texas. And we should go and it's like, cool, I'm like 18, whatever, like, what do I know? And we go down the street. and that house was Steve Hawley's house, who was a Team 5 Naval Academy grad, number two officer,

and this party was like his platoon's party. And one Bill Mulder was at that party. So like literally... I always say this, so we moved to San Diego. I remember it was on a Wednesday, and this party was Friday. So, I mean, it was just fast and furious kind of. when I met Bill and that was it

And then like the next night I remember Bill Because we probably went to a party there the next night too He comes up to me And he's like Hey think I got something going on with your sister So like Are we cool

You know but then I think as much about We talked about this recently Like that I think Bill was excited about like oh this guy clearly like wants to do something about this and like hey why the hell would he go to the Marine Corps when you could come into the SEALs right but also like it doesn't hurt to make you know the girl that I like little brother like happy right so like he took me like

Pendleton I told you this recently he didn't know this he like took me to Pendleton and like when they were running through the kill house and everything and I was like I don't know what the Marine Corps is this this is my jam yeah um And then Bill left and you moved to LA? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So he left, he went to the East Coast? He, nope, he just went on an eight-month deployment.

Okay. And I moved to Los Angeles for a job, and we just maintained this long-distance relationship. He was based in Guam. Okay. Yep. And then he comes home. and we are in L.A. at the time he had come up to see me

and was always infuriated when he got there because of the traffic and we were walking on the beach and he said hey so I want to tell you something I'm going to screen for this thing called Green Team for a development group I had no idea what he's talking about. And you got to tell the part that you've told this you've said this before when you met Bill

Oh, God. You didn't know what a Navy seal was. No clue. I was 20. Was he insulted by that? Three. Probably. Probably.

At the time, he was like, oh, it's so endearing. This is so cute. But I'm sure he was mortified. So I asked my brother, I was like, so what is this? What's this? I was an idiot. But yes, so at the time he said, I'm going to screen for green team for development group.

I was like, cool, great, man. He said, well, it's, it's East Coast. it's in Virginia Beach. I was like, where? I had, you know, he said, well, how about, what if you come with me, we go make a visit, check it out, see if it's something that you let. I mean, we were very, very serious at this time. And he said, come with me, see if you like it out there. And so we went to visit Virginia Beach. And, you know, coming from Los Angeles, I think anywhere would have been a culture shock, but, whoa, going to Virginia Beach was like, whoa, where am I? And he screened and was selected.

And I remember, I remember him saying he had always wanted to do this. He always had his sights on this. And at the time, when I met him, he was on at 5, Team 5, and he was there for maybe, he graduated Bud's 97. So, yeah, met him in 2012. And he had, not that this detail matters, but I remember that he, I remember this story. He had already screened before they went on that. So he had, I know that he had like a nascent blessing, yes, but then when he got back, like, kind of the system had broken down. And so I very vividly remember the next time that like dev group screener came out, they were like, Bill, like, where are you? And he was like, you tell me, man, like, I'm ready to go. And they were like, okay, we'll get this cleared out, cleared up and pull you out.

That was 2004. So we moved to Virginia Beach together, 2004, and he rolled into gold. And, oh, man, we loved it. It was so great. It was still, I think I was telling you guys earlier, it was small. And I just remember knowing the security guards by name, and they knew me, and we were there all the time together. And quickly just jumped into that lifestyle. and we loved it and he was quick and just rolled right into being an awesome operator.

He was just so happy. I remember him at that time being... Yeah, he's living the life at that time. Yeah, tip of the spear. He really, he felt like this is, this is it. I remember him getting there and being like, they gave me like 12 duffel bags a gear. Yeah. Like on day zero.

A year. I'm the fucking gear. Yeah. One of the challenges that, you know, I think that special operators, operations spouses have is one, some of them feel like they're competing for the attention of their spouse for the job, and the other one is the deployment tempo, and this is post 9-11. How were those types, how was that for you? I can answer that kind of competitive part.

I can answer both, but I don't ever remember feeling competitive with the job. I think I, I don't know, it was this weird innate... Nate, knowing that job came first for him. I knew that right when I met him. I just, he was, I think I've shared this too, kind of in a speaking engagement, but he was completely born to do what he was doing. And I saw that.

I just, I always say this too. It was just in his bones. I think you said it too. Like just you're, you knew what you wanted to do at zero. And same for Bill. So I never, it was, I. I can happily say that I don't remember that kind of competitiveness with his job. I kind of resigned to the fact and I was okay with it.

And then the deployment cycle was definitely an adjustment. And at the time when we got there, it was still the three-month cycle. So it was, again, just fast and furious he was home and then he was gone and then he was training. And it was just that three months on, three months off. That was challenging. That was challenging. But again, I think that community is so, which I still live there, and the community is just so solid and so great. So it was very, very quickly just friends became family.

So when the guys would go, it was like, here are my buddies. It was just great. It was a good time. Of your siblings, how many brothers did you grow up with? So I have two older sisters. Excuse me, I had to. One sister passed away. and then

William, Jamie I'm the oldest of what my eldest half-sister would call the JVy. I'm the varsity and he's the J-V I take some issue with that. Do the parents choose favorites

and that's how I shook out? So was it because another thing I think that like special operas spouses sometimes have a hard time if they haven't been around a lot of guys like they either learned develop a sense of humor, they either have a sense of humor or things get really rocky.

Yeah, yeah. Because there are generally a lot of hijinks going on. How is that for you? Pretty seamless, and I don't know if it's because of brothers or just, I just have that dark, weird sense of humor as well. And I think that was one of the things that Bill liked about me is he was such an idiot and I was an idiot, and it was just, we had so much fun. It was fun. So I think I came with that dark humor too. Now, you were in college during this time, right?

Yeah, so I'm at University of San Diego, Go Torero's. And I'm rowing. So, like... You're fit. Yeah, like, not an uncommon path into, like, special operators. Like, I mean, just, yeah, I mean, you're, you're fit. And by this point, Bill has essentially turned me towards the dark side and said, hey, okay, I'm going to go enlist to go to butts, right? And so I mean, I'm just, I'm dissecting fuds, right?

I'm like, I'm not going to this place with like 90% dropout, you know, whatever the number is like and failing. So I graduated May 2006 and I signed a delayed entry program contract to go. April to go to go to you know boot camp April 20 2007 so I was confident in my confident in my fitness but I needed you know needed more running less rowing not not a highly relevant skill special operations community well maybe in buds you do some yeah yeah yeah there's no there's no sliding seat in an inflatable right right right right right So shortly after graduating, this kind of lower back lingering injury, like, really starts to hit home. And more and more and more.

And it's like, okay, like, now I can't walk. Right. And I'm like, well, I'm not going to budge with a bad back. Sure. Right. Like, I am smart enough to know not to do that. and I had started taking master's classes, international relations classes at USDA, like working out all afternoon and taking classes in the morning.

And so I mean, just to say it, like, as you might imagine, like personally soul crushing. Right? Like all I've ever wanted to do is not be a Navy SEALs just going to the military. Be the tip of the sphere type of. And then it's this and like I'm 22 like I'm super strong, super fit, but there's just this like debilitating injury. So I pull the contract and I'm like, okay, well what can I just do tomorrow? tomorrow, right? Like what?

And I'm like, well, I'll finish this master's program. And you do a master's in international relations, and like the three-letter agencies start to sort of pop up because that's kind of the profile. In terms of like sniff you out or just kind of come to your awareness? I think that the like movie, not De Niro, Al Pacino, like, getting tapped on the shoulder in the bar thing, like, hey, we need you. Like, okay, there's, like, maybe, like, 10 people that that's happened to because they're the, like,

Arabist nuclear, like, the one, you know, guy out there that has that profile. But, you know, most people who end up at the agency apply it online. Right. Like, that's just, I'm not talking, you know, pale mail. or like other stuff. Right, right. You know, for we mere mortals, right, it's, but, but they, the agency does a good job of, like, having current or former staffers out there in universities, teaching, learning about

intelligence. Because, I mean, I think half the issue is, like, most people don't really even know what the how human intelligence really is. Right, right. And so, because they think it's Jason Bourne or James Bond. Right. So, you know, you're getting these classes,

and you're like, oh, like, this is cool, and this is in the fight. And so I finished grad school, still very hungry to be in the fight. I mean, at this point, it's November 2007. I'm 23 and I moved to D.C. And I get kind of a first job

working for a senator from Texas, K. Bailey Hutchison. And I go to the chief of... This is like week one. I'm like answering phones, right? like I am not some sexy, you know, political staffer. I'm answering phones and I go to the chief of staff and I said, listen, thank you so much for like this, my first job.

This isn't really what I want to do. I want to do this. And I said, would the senator, like, write? She didn't know me from Adam. Right. But, like, would she write me a letter to, like, so I can put it in my application? And I think he was just so fired up

that this young person was like, hey, this is what I want to do? He was like, yes. Did I want to go into the CIA? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Not something like a senator's chief of staff is hearing on a, you know, regular basis. So, you know, I just was trying to do that because I didn't want my application just to, like, fall between the cracks. Right.

So I, you know, went through the kind of standard. that time process. I don't know, maybe six months later, like summer 2008, had a conditional, and then probably the next year was my clearance. And as a general statement, I was a Boy Scout growing up. So I'll just tell you a funny story about that process. I had done all the background, they talked on my friends, and I just heard these horror stories of people getting tripped up on the polygraph. And I said, well, like, I got nothing to hide, right? And I'm not going to let this hang me up getting in.

So for the, like, month before my poly, I had this Word document, and I wrote down everything I'd ever done wrong in my own. entire life. Like when I was 13, I stole this piece of gun type stuff. And I printed it, and I walked in, and the polygrapher goes, like, do you have paperwork for me? And I go, this is everything. I was out 20 minutes later. Because like you, the stories you hear is like, people like, oh, they get tripped up. Oh, I'm trying to remember this. I was like, this is everything. I didn't murder anybody. And, yeah, like, and I blamed it on Susie, right?

So, that was, like, I think I was, like, the fastest polygraph ever, and I was done. And I started. Did you just have this document going, like, whenever you'd remember something you did. That's exactly what it was. I can see that. I can see you. I mean, like, I didn't have anything to hide. Right.

I knew, like, the bad stuff I'd done would still, you know, the bad stuff would still be fine. Jesus knows what you did. Yeah, exactly. So I started July 2009, which was, so I moved East Coast and you guys were still in Virginia Beach? We moved to San Antonio August of 2009. Yeah. Bill was, so he came home from, I'm trying to remember how many deployments we went through, 2004 to 20, 2009 I that's a lot handful of deployments yeah that command did a lot they did a lot and he came home from

that 2009 deployment that spring and was smoked he I remember I always love I have such a visual of picking them up at the command it was always at night they everything was at night with these guys and you'd pick them up late night and all the wives would get all dolled up. It was so exciting and you'd park your car and you'd wait for you and they would come in on a bus and you'd get a text message that they're there and this chain link fence would open

and they would all, you know, they had their backpacks and full beards and long hair and you're trying to pick out your guy and I remember seeing him and I was like, oh, I just, he looked completely smoked. He was just exhausted. And I was pregnant with our daughter, our first kid, Nina. And I remember I turned to the side to show him how much I had grown.

And he was very quiet. And I just, we had this routine when he would get home. I would get a case of beer and we'd stay up all night, that first night. And he would tell me, he would tell me everything. He knew what to filter, but he didn't filter a lot. He just had this, we just had this kind of nice. routine. I heard some pretty shitty things, but it was really therapeutic for him and I think something he needed to do. And he didn't, he was very quiet that time. He didn't tell me much.

It didn't last long. It wasn't, you know, this data dump that he would usually do. And a few days later, he was just, he was like, I'm exhausted. He was like, I need a, I need a, I need a break. And I said, you know what? That sounds great. Nina's due in September. Let's take a break. And we moved to San Antonio. I said, let's go to San Antonio closer to my family. Let's get some family around us. Let's have this baby. And he was going to get out, but then long story short, he didn't. There was a billet for a seal recruiter and mentor in the San Antonio district. So he took that. And, and, And we very quickly realized that that was, he was not the right fit for him.

Oh, really? Miserable. And with, I mean, he went from varsity to J.E. Not even JV. He had to, on Fridays, he had to wear his BD uniform. The yellow T-shirt and the green shorts or black shorts. I mean, he was just miserable. So it was, that was tough.

That was not an easy. I mean, you will know this better than me, but I know a little bit from later, made no friends leaving, meaning institutionally. Oh, ah. Excited about, I mean, pushback with him leaving, is my question. I don't know about at the time when he returned,

I think then he realized he was like, oh, shit. I guess there was pushback from when I left a year and a half ago. I'll just insert one thing. And, you know, I don't precisely remember the chronology of this, but it would have been right around that time. Look, Bill and I, all of us, had spent plenty of late nights drinking together. Right around, I came down,

it would have been right around that time for just like a weekend or something. And it was different drinking with him that night. Yeah. It was just me and him. he was sitting in a chair sort of like this and it was just it wasn't

God bless Bill it wasn't cool guy Worst stories oh man I did this it was like dark dark shit yeah and I didn't really I wasn't sophisticated for me to like

really understand what I was saying but in hindsight I was like oh yeah was it and I remember him saying I mean he was saying they were going every night they were going out. I mean, it was just nonstop. And I think they had lost a couple guys, you know, had their little ceremony,

and then went out the next night. It was just fucked up. Brutal. In hindsight, did you feel like this trip was sort of a turning point for him? Or do you feel that it was slowly growing and... Totally this trip. This trip.

Yeah, and he had said the same thing. independent of me. He said it to a therapist. He said that 2009 deployment, something shifted. Yeah. And nightmares began. Yeah, so definitely that was the turning point.

But wait, I have a question, and I don't know that we've ever actually asked this or discussed this. And this is worth, I don't think I'm like raising anything. I mean, like, this is all. I remember you telling me when we were all living together that Bill sat up in bed and grabbed his shoulder. I remember this very, because this was early on. Oh, in San Diego?

Yes. Oh, for sure. He was having night terrorists when we first were dating. And I don't even know the answer to this. Sorry, for this family. Had he been shot in the shoulder? He had shrapnel in the shot, not shot, but he, yes, he had in his right shoulder. So he was having night terrors about whatever.

So when he was in a vanilla seal. Yeah. Yeah. I remember sitting with him in his closet several times because of night terrors and just trying to consult. I didn't, it was terrifying. And gosh, we were babies. Yeah. You just dating.

And at the time, I mean, obviously mental health has become more of a focus in the military community. But at the time, was he recognizing what was going on? Was he looking for help? No, he wasn't. And it was very much a occupational hazard kind of talk. You just, like, this is, I think there wasn't a lot of discussion about it. But if there was, it was just very much a... His green team screening is probably...

Let me be clear it. The perception is likely that his green team screening would not go great if he had some... Right. And a lot of this leads into sound off, which we'll get into later. But, yes, like, not... There's a real risk in those communities that if you talk about your problems, you get sidelined. Absolutely. If you look for help, you get sidelined.

Absolutely. Or you get ignored. And for him, it was always, I don't want my buddies to know. Right. If I'm not operational, and that was the number one for him was, I don't want my, not his CEO, not leadership. It was just like, I don't want Mikey to know. I don't want Porky to know. The trauma around all of this, I feel like, probably grew because he tried to take a break and that didn't work.

Yeah. And then we want to talk about how you guys came back to the development group. Because, I mean, it's, this is like an event, like a catalyzing event. I don't think even when it happened at the time, I really understood how profound it was for the special operations community. I think, I think. In retrospect, talking. I remember where I was, but it didn't register it. I think, like, it didn't, this is terrible.

I didn't fully get it. But for, you know. For you and Bill. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so we were in, we were in San Antonio. I had, we now had two kids. We had two kids really close together. So just those life stressors as well. We were, he was just miserable. We were struggling. There was a lot of substance. It would be alcohol abuse happening. I just started noticing some, I was just like, oh shit, this is, we're not in a good spot. And, um, um, extortion 17 so it was as you I like the word catalyst that was very much what it was for us at the time um I had again such a vivid memory of sitting with Bill on the couch in our living room and he had been talking you just fielding phone calls for days buddies and spouses and friends and we're sitting We had the news on all day every day.

He was not sleeping. He was just glued to the TV. He was talking to friends on the phone. And we're sitting on the couch together, and I'm crying, and I look at him and he's crying because it's just news. It's just this ticker tape. We know who's been lost. That was his squadron.

That was Gold Squadron. Those were his buddies, and those were his brothers. And I looked at him, and he looked over at me, me and we just we just nodded like this and I go we got to go back and he looked at me he goes we got to go back and within three months we sold our house he took like three trips back to the beach in that time sold her house moved back to the beach and he rolled right in I mean it was just they were so desperate yeah after after firefighters after 9-11 and you know you hear the whole list of all your dudes who just lost their lives and it's like I got to fill in for my boy right

totally there's like no doubt about it he was like this is this is happening so here bill bill i mean to say it this way bill is trying to save himself by pulling back and you all are in san Antonio and because of extortion and your and Bill's duty, honor to country, get ripped back in. Yeah, absolutely. There's also, I imagine, probably an element of survivor's guilt going on. I could have been on that bird. I'm glad I wasn't, but I should have been, you know, that there's like this weird

cocktail of emotions going on that I'm glad I'm alive, I'm glad I wasn't. there but I should have been there. Absolutely. Maybe something would have been different if I would have been there. Yeah. He would have been on, he 100% would have been on there. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That was, and continued to be major struggle for him. And I think that, like you said, just the survivor's guilt, which so many, so many of the guys and suffer from. Yeah. I mean, it's one of the reasons that people in, like, the special operations community go so hard. is because it's not necessarily for patriotism

or love of country or love of service, it's because of the person on the left and the right of them but they don't want to let down. Absolutely. You know? Absolutely. That was really excruciating to watch and to hear. I just, I remember him the phone calls and he was like,

oh my God, he was on there too. Like it was just, it was, it was a big loss. major loss. So you guys find yourself back at the command after that. And meanwhile, William, how is your erstwhile CIA career going? So this would have been 2011. Yeah. So, well, that's, that's, okay, so I come in July 6th, 2009. And to state, the obvious, we're eight years at war already. And, you know, I've, like, known Bill. I've known people in the community,

but I've never been in the community before. And, you know, I don't know, trainees, I think, are sort of famous, infamous for, like, it's a lot of drinking, it's a lot of fun, it's a lot of partying. But then it's pretty cool. clear like there's something else going on here right like i'm i'm engaging with people that this person seems to be struggling and these are like instructors in the farm no but i even mean

even people that i'm eodeing with okay because you know not everybody was working on the not everybody was working on the hill you know like wearing a suit every day sure so it's like pretty evident to me like this is a community and I don't just mean the agency I mean I mean that's like it's fraying at the edges

so two years later 2011 when you're headed back it's not surprising frankly probably to anybody that we get the sort of now infamous

VA 22 a day veteran suicide a day report comes out. And, you know, I think that one of the coolest parts about the operational side of the agency to me is very much captured by the movie Argo, the Ben Affleck. I mean, true story movie about the pulling the Americans out of Tehran and using the film to cover mechanism to get them out. And what that, I always use that example, because what it really represents is that was not in a textbook somewhere, right? Like there was no, like, hey, the next time we got, you know,

some people when you get out, we're going to make a movie and do this thing. it was just a really smart set of people who the box is thrown out, how are we going to get these guys out? And then if you can think through it, it's reasonable to sell it and write it, as important as anything in the agency, you're going to do it. And I bring all that up to say,

I think that the building really, especially in the operation, side encourages that thinking like hey we got this problem what are we going to do and I probably embraced that maybe a little that that that spirit a little too much of the chagrined and probably plenty plenty of managers but when that suicide report came out I said wait a minute there's a fundamental problem and how we are trying to deal with this problem. And again, I'm not a clinician, I'm not a researcher, I'm just like a guy to guess.

You just see it. I'm just like, there's a fundamental problem. Yeah. And I think everybody here knows the problem. Yeah. But like, it would never be, not that it was being hidden, but it was never being like sort of explicitly said. And I said, wait a minute.

we can have all the resources in the world. But my best friend who's going to Yemen on his first tour tomorrow is not going to walk in to CIA OMS mental health services to talk about a shrinking problem. Zero percent chance. Again, I didn't know any of the research.

I'm just like seeing this and I'm just like this is just such a fundamental breakdown in this system and so truly like 2011 it was like well wait a minute

if this guy knows he should talk to somebody which he probably does but the fundamental barrier here is he doesn't want anybody know he's talking anybody why don't we just fix that problem? Right.

Why don't we just let him talk to somebody, but nobody knows? And, like, that idea stuck, like, 2011, 2012. And it just stuck and stuck and stuck. I go to Afghanistan 2012, come back 2013, which I apologize to viewers because I'm sure for any other guest on the show that that would be like 90% of the discussion. I come back August 2013

and I hadn't really done anything with this idea because I said, well, this is just such like an obvious answer to an obvious problem. Somebody is going to do this. Yeah. Just to clarify for the audience, the problem isn't just people who may not want to talk to a therapist because of machismo or embarrassment or anything like that. We're talking about people, whether in the special operations community or the intelligence community, who run a real risk of losing their clearance, of getting sideline, of losing their job. I think it's really important to do.

dig into this. And let me just like, sorry, tangent for like half a second and say how awesome it is to be able to have this conversation in this way, in this format, because normally we're trying to like compress not only 10 years of history, but also like a lot of complexity and nuance in this into like a 15, a thousand word article or thank you, thank you, Jack, or, or, you know, like a 10 minute interview so like it's wonderful to be able to like really deconstruct this we use the term stigma to have this whole discussion right like that's how we societally discuss what we're what we're talking about I think it's a very lazy word because we're really like you said talking about two different things there's what bill was what said bill was like primary

I don't want, you know, my guy next to me to know that I'm not at 100%. Right. I call that cultural stigmatization. I think we are seeing, I mean, hell, just some of the interviews you guys have done here, right? I think there's a lot fewer what I call tough guys today than 20 years ago, right? Like everybody has been so burned down that the willingness for serious guys, people, to be like, yeah, I've struggled is a cultural change. And we're also in the midst of a civilizational change around perceptions of mental health. Right.

right like the whole thing is changing now how true is that for a 25 year old versus a 45 year old right like the 25 year old who's still building his reputation you know but then there is the concern of professional blowback and this is a very complicated discussion because first there is real concern there's real potential for professional blowback and then there is con uh like perception yeah now now part of the problem is it doesn't matter if it's real or perceived right right because perception is enough to keep them from acting sure i would also respectfully submit that kind of the party line that i hear too often from i guess i DOD, suicide prevention coordinators, is in my view, the wrong party line.

And what they'll say is, is, well, only 1% of security clearances are impacted by this or that or this or that. Okay, that may be true, and let's take as premise is true, but you're cherry picking a single statistic that everyone in the room that you're talking to knows this does not reflect the like entirety of potential blowback on you by seeking help. So you're losing credibility by saying that. And that is my frustration when you hear those types of things. But the problem is they don't have anything better to say. Because there's just a fundamental catch-22 for the United States military in this. the United States military is never going to say,

I don't need to know if my F-18 pilots are drinking too much. And by the way, like, rightfully so, right? Like, I mean, let's take it all the way to the extreme. No, I need to know if my B2 pilots are, like, substance abusers or majorly depressed or whatever. but by forcing that knowledge right like that that that acknowledgement of that we know explicitly that prevents them some percentage of them from seeking care right but it doesn't matter because at a certain point and let me be clear the department of defense has done a good job

trying to move that line as far to like when do I need to know as possible and I'll give an anecdote about Lyman Howard in this, right, of, hey, when do I really need to know that this person seeking help? But the fundamental problem is as long as there is a line, any line, there's going to be some percentage of these men and women who say, I'm not even walking in the room. Right. Because I know if I say the wrong thing and I accidentally stumble over that line. I'm going to lose my security clearance. And that's just a catch-22 that I'm very empathetic with with the military on.

Because, like, sorry, I need to know if I be two pilots, like, an alcoholic. Right. And it's the same thing also with Yussain, with. with them saying only 1% of people have professional blowback. Anybody's like, okay, do I roll that die? Do I roll that dice? Do I risk becoming that one percent? For someone like Bill, they're not going to say.

He spent your entire life working towards a singular goal. Well, I'll give you the quote. So you're saying there's a chance. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not even walking. And I'll give you a quote that I love. This was a former TF-160. the 6th Regiment Commander, and we were talking about sound off.

And he said, we need this, meaning sound off, more than anybody, because you've never met a sick pilot. Right. Right. Right. Like, all those guys are doing is jeopardizing their flight status, which means jeopardizing their ability to do their job, by saying, hey, my elbow is hurting, never mind something more complicated.

I'm having intrusive thoughts. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just a real fundamental challenge. This is, I'm not here to like beat up on the DOD, right? Like it's just like a fundamental challenge I'm dealing with this, which is why Soundoff exists. Yeah. Yeah. So, so you identify this problem and meanwhile you're living it. Living it. Exactly. that's always just such a powerful component, I think, to what William was doing and continues to do and what we were, you know, it was very parallel and we were living it. Because now you're back and it's 20, 11, 12. Right. So we're back 2011, 2012, the beginning of 2012. Bill is immediately operational. Has now, they put him on Silver Squadron?

So he goes into Silver. Yeah. Yeah. And they were so, the command was so desperate for bodies, for older guys, Bill was considered the old guy. But he wasn't, it didn't seem like he was welcomed as fondly as he thought he was going to. So it was a tough kind of comeback. Because he was, he didn't grow up in silver.

Right. And he's coming into a group of guys who don't know him. That's right. Coming in, everyone's mourning. It was a really challenging time. And it had grown. Deb Groove was, I mean, there were two new buildings and a beautiful new dining hall and all this support staff.

And so you go on there and it was just, it was huge. And we felt like we didn't know anybody. I say we. It's funny that I'm including myself in that The bill would report back He would say gosh it's Even in just that short you know Two years year and a half it

It really grew How long were you guys in 2016 in 2020? We were there a year and a half Mm-hmm So he had been going hard I mean even as Vanilla Seal Like he had been in some stuff Then at Dead Group

He had been going hard since 2004 To about 2009 2009 yeah But had been at 5 from 2000-ish? He graduated, Buzz 97. 97? Yeah. Okay.

So what was it like for his first deployment, him going and then him coming back? When we came back in Silver. Yes. Thank you, Jack. Very challenging. I start to, so forgive me here. I do start to kind of block some things out at this point. This was just a really, really dark time for us.

And we had two little kids and we had moved back kind of maybe naively thinking that the move back would solve a lot of the issues we were struggling with in San Antonio in our marriage and our, you know, substance abuse. And he was so miserable at his job. So I still say it was the best move we ever made to go back. And, but it was really challenging and really dark. So that first deployment back was, was hard for him. And it was, he was, I think, confused that he wasn't welcomed with open arms. Right. Like he was expected.

I'm now remembering this. And he wasn't, I don't know, the positions well enough, but like he would have been a platoon leader or squad leader or whatever. but he wasn't immediately definitely. I think he's okay with that because he had taken, you know, we were gone for a year and a half,

but I think at the time, yes, I think he would probably have progressed to a squadron leader or again, I'm terrible. I don't even know the terms. Troop chief. Troop chief, that's it.

So a struggle. It was hard. And he didn't jive with silver. He was very much a gold guy. They all, they have their, they have their, yeah, yeah. And he was,

He didn't jive with silver. But as you pointed out, the entire culture of the unit had also gone through a fundamental shift. Very much. When silver had just been stood up. He was helping stand it up, wasn't he? That's right. Right when he had left, when we moved in 2009, they were starting to push silver. So, and I always, I always felt surprised that as the spouse, I even felt that shift when we moved back, I was like,

man, this, it feels different. The community felt different. Our friends, it was just, it was bigger. It wasn't, it wasn't, I just used that word brotherhood. It really did not feel like that community anymore. And I even felt that as the spouse. So for Bill, I think he, he was definitely feeling that. So that continued.

So he stayed with Silver. So we were there. Gosh, we just plowed through, push through. until 2017. So for the next several years. But to be clear, I didn't know any of this until after Bill died.

But you got to paint the picture of the last two years of him at the command. Because stop me if I'm saying something incorrect. But like we had this conversation six months or a year after Bill died. He was like

non, I mean, I almost want to say functional, but like, non-effective the last year or two. He was functioning. Yeah. He was a functioning alcoholic. But he was very much operational, and he was very much there. And I think that's one of the things is that, you know. If the guy shows up the work, he must be good to go, right?

Not only that, but if the guy can shoot, move, and communicate, because that's what the job is. And I think a lot of these commands, because we, you know, You know, you talked about it with Frode, a lot of these commands will watch their people sort of dive and not do anything about it. In fact, sometimes cover it up. And I'm not saying that his command did this, but people are aware,

but as long as that person can shoot, move and communicate, if once they're down range... I know for a fact they're aware, because the clinician who you know, who we've all spoken with, said to some of the guys after Bill died, they knew he was running through the killhouse drunk. Shit.

And she's like, you're not telling me, like, how am I supposed to keep this person alive, to put it bluntly? If you know that at that level, right, how can we... But you also, in those cases, I think you also get into the thin blue line. of I'm not gonna write out my buddy.

That's right. Right? I'm not gonna rat out my buddy. Because like this guy's legit, he did like eight deployments with development group. Right. How are you gonna come out and say? I'm gonna be the reason he might lose his job.

But there was a point when they sidelined him and put him in a staff position, right? They did, yes. So, and again, this is foggy for me, but it was 20, so he went to Nike, uh, 2014. And so this, I feel like it would have been late 2015 was when he was sent home from a deployment.

He was deployed and they, he came home because poor performance drinking just, it was awful. And he was sent to, um, uh, you guys would know, whatever alcohol program would send you to.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like the inpatient, like two-week thing or whatever it was, yes. Everyone's thinking I just dimes myself out right now. He was sent there and then gently kind of came back in. And then I remember he came back from a training trip. He was in the helo with his friend and he was told that he wasn't going to make troop chief.

and he came home and that seemed to be a major turning point for him and he just he's like I'm out I'm done I'm done I'm not doing this anymore I'm and I don't know if that was him pulling back yeah I don't know if that was him saving face and just okay I'm going on my terms right yeah

but he was they he was done and so that would have been so then there was the whole just medical just getting out transitioning health. Before we get there, I just want to ask your NICO, for people who don't know, that was a program that has sent a lot of operators

to, I believe it, Walter Reed for PTSD and TBI treatment. I know that has helped a lot of guys, but Bill went through that program and, I mean, what was your perception of its impact? I felt NICO, I thought it was incredible. So he went for four weeks. And I went up, I was able to go for the last week

is what they call family week. So I went with the kids. William was up there at the time. You were in Bethesda. Anyways, it doesn't matter, but you were there. And I remember, but hold on. I think what you just said is important because I just want to emphasize something. at least I you isn't a criticism this is history it's not like you guys were like

sharing this is what's going on oh no and that's I'll get to that with my NICO experience so I'm saying are you saying I'm there maybe I was maybe we saw each other but I don't think you were like we tried to have dinner and I had to cancel on you because Bill

flipped his shit and was like I'm not going to he had a total meltdown and you probably weren't telling me, oh, we're here for Bill to go to Nike. No. No. Which is kind of the whole. So I show up for Family Week, and I had been communicating with him for the first three weeks that he was there, and it was incredible. I mean, all of these doctors in one building, so they

were all communicating with each other, discussing each individual patient and the effects of combat and the effects of war on these guys, and their sleep deprivation and this and that and their neurocognitive abilities. It was amazing. So I was super anxious to get up there to see all this. I was able to meet with every single one of his doctors that he was seeing every day. And this schedule, they had this amazing schedule printed out for the guys. And it was, it was amazing. I couldn't wait. And so I met with everybody. And then the last appointment of the day was with the therapist. So they had talked. therapy every day and we're sitting there and she's telling me about Bill's

progress this was the last week so she's telling me about Bill's progress and I'm asking some questions and I can't remember if I brought it up or I think I must have brought it up because I asked about his drinking and she turned to Bill and she said drinking and I couldn't believe it was not even discussed that shouldn't even pop up on the radar. Didn't even discuss it. And I'm telling, like, it was drinking before work. It was just to get through the day drinking. It was brutal. But let's be clear about the critique here. I'm not putting words you about it. It's a good program, but it didn't turn off everything that it should.

Incredible program. But it was not a function of, oh man, they didn't connect A record with B record. He said Bill was not going to volunteer. He's still hiding stuff. Exactly. Right. Exactly. I absolutely, I think it was an incredible program. The follow-up care is so crucial and so important.

And Bill, for a time, did that and was diligent about it. And then it just fizzled. And then it got harder and harder for it. He had a whole sleep time hygiene regimen. and he stuck with that for a little while, and then it just fizzled out. Did you feel as though you initially, when he came out of that program,

did you initially see some light or some improvement? I did. I did. I remember very clearly noticing that and feeling really hopeful. And hopeful for that whole time that he really kind of maintained that schedule for himself. And I don't know, I think they've implemented

this now, but I think there are more kind of little satellite programs that help with that follow-up care. I hope they do, because I think that's really, really crucial is that aftercare component. But I did. I remember he had life in his eye. I just, so, you know, unfortunately

there were so many times where he was very dark. Just dark. You look at the photos of Bill. Oh, I can tell immediately. No, no, no, no, I don't mean that. It hurt. Yeah. I mean just like in its face. Oh, exhaustion.

I mean just, now, bloated, exhaustion, this is also, everybody gets older and dead in the eyes. It's not quite, but I mean, you look at the photos of Bill when we first met him. I still have, I can't look at, I have a really hard time still looking at photos at that time. The last couple.

So to bounce around a little bit, you guys are on your way out of the Navy. William, you've side skirted, telling us a little bit about your agency career. Yeah, so tell us some spy stories. I had a boss who retired, C.S. Kabul was retiring in the station. It was his last job. And he said at retiring, he said, this job is, maybe I'll dial down the statistics a little bit to do the agency's and justice. He said, this job is 80% bullshit and 20% holy shit, I can't believe we're doing this.

And in seven years, I was very lucky to have my 20%. Holy shit. Holy shit. I cannot believe we are doing this. So, you know, 2009 and 2016 was mayhem. Yes. And, you know, I don't know what, 60% of the national security infrastructure was pointed at Afghanistan and Pakistan. I went into Afghanistan post-Bin Laden and was very lucky to work a program that kind of became the sexy thing post-Bin Laden. and I could not talk about that all day long,

but what I will say is to see the next, like truly the strategic resources of J-Soc and the U.S. intelligence community put against a single thing was like, this is fucking amazing. The gloves are coming on. Yeah. Now, a lot of problems with it. A lot of analysis problems with it, like, you know, to nobody's surprised,

but still just seeing that machine put towards a single thing, like literally a single human being, was like amazing. You said, you mentioned that you were lucky to, like, get on the next big thing. Yeah. Did it seem as though, I don't say post-war, because as we know it continued going on, but Iraq had died down. Did it seem, though, that the agency at large, I don't want to say lost its way,

but was it looking for a new mission? Was it trying to find out who it was, like post-Global War on Terror? I think we were, look, I think it's like, I think that the entire national security infrastructure was a little lost in Afghanistan, right? Like, I don't think that's shocking to say. And so call it, like, 12.

1314, you know, what is this going to look like? What are we doing? But I'll tell you I had a boss in Kandahar that lots of people are saying this now, right? And, but this was the first person who'd really ever critique it and said it to me. You know, drinking by the fire pit one night. he said we've done this entirely wrong like this should have been a plato or plomo like this should have been like 10 case officers

you know a 100 j-sac guys suitcases full of money and a bunch of like B-1s overhead right and like we're going to buy this country and if you don't want to play with us we're going to kill you and everybody you've ever known, right? Like, that is how that war needed to be thought. I'm saying this, like, we're all saying this with 2020 hindsight, right?

I'm not claiming genius in this. Lots of people are saying this. But at the time, like, first of all, nobody gives a shit what I think, right? Nor should they, right? Like, nobody's taking my guidance on strategic path ahead in Afghanistan. And, you know, you're just, like, in the thing. I mean, I intentionally, I was in Kabul, and I was like, I got to get the hell out of here. Because like, there's 17 different things going on at any given time.

I don't, I'm not going to get to like really dig into a single thing. So this effort opened up in Kanderhart and I was like, yes, I'm going to go do that. and again like a lot of critiques but getting to focus on one thing see the see the machine work right you know and you got to remember 2000 what wait so that's 2013 I was 29 right like I was still a baby in a lot I was totally a baby yeah and you know and there's going to be a lot of agency people laughing when they hear me say this I was the young

I was going to say young stallion the young Mustang like whatever you know fire brand who just needed to be fucking lashed into shape right like I say that fully like self-acknowledging realization right And I cried leaving the building because I knew that's exactly what had happened.

I had grown up, really, in that building in all the way that matters for somebody like that, which is like, we're just going to beat you into the grounds, which I would submit, like, as a 25 to 30-year-old is like probably what you knew. Probably reasonable. Yeah. Like, hey, dirtbag, like, you are not the smartest person in this room. Yeah. And we're going to, like, make sure you know that.

Right. Now, there's an other side to that where that becomes, like, institutional. And you realize, like, oh, this isn't a place where, like, I'm going to get to do, like. But ultimately, I think. having those types I had plenty of bad leaders I think like we all did but you know

I just think having that formative experience in a place that's like this is a lot of high performers and like we don't have time for your bullshit is if you don't get that somewhere

like then you never grow up. I mean, to kind of say it that way. Right. So, I, you know, I won't say I love

those memories, but like I am fully aware of how deeply formative, you know, those, I came in at 25, is that right? Yeah, 25, left at 32, and

learned how to think. learned how to write, learned how to like operate, kind of literally and figuratively. And also learned, oh, like, there is, you know, institutional, this is not some big criticism in the agency, but like, oh, there's like institutional deep think here, you know, that, I, I see like, hey, I see an answer for something that's like not going to be fixed by me, like, working within the system.

Right. You know, you say that you went through when you were 25, you left when you were 32. When you left, I'm curious about, like, the decisions that led to that. Did you feel as though, you know, having grown up wanted to be like kind of the tip of the spear, did you feel that you accomplished that? It was time to move on. Were you... What was it?

This is now getting like, this is my tuberbin therapy session. I mean, my real answer is no, right? Like, but I also, I also didn't consider myself leaving. I still consider myself a national. security professional, right?

Like, that's fundamentally my life's work. Now, I'm in a really unexpected, weird role in doing that right now, but I'm not, like, going to run Goodwill next year. Right, right. So, nothing, nothing to do anything wrong with that. Hear that Goodwill, you suck. I know, my number, my number two, my number two, Elizabeth is like, I like to say that the second best relationship.

I've ever chosen to enter and she came from Goodwill. So, shout out Goodwill. But that's just not my, like, I don't really consider myself a nonprofit professional. It's just what I had to do to accomplish. Right. What you had been looking at for years. Exactly.

Yeah. So, but like, I think that there's also an element of, you know, you grow up, right? And like, there's like, 300 bills in the world, right? And not to say that that's like the only people, you know, literally and figuratively trigger pulling. But I did feel like what was an interesting experience,

and I've shared this before, the more that I got to know, like the Tier 1 sort of universe, the more that I realized we were both, like, as the, you know, call it, 30 year old agency guy and the tier one you know hey I grew up in the teams or whatever

it felt like we were both operationally looking over the hill and saying the grass is green right like the more the only reason I think I had any respect with those guys is because they were looking at the like high end

intel sort of piece of and they were like that's the cool shit right And meanwhile, I think I can fairly say, like, every 25-year-old, you know, trainee wants to be, like, trigger pulling. Yeah. So, so I, it's really more as I, like, grew up that, like, oh, man, I did, like, I was, like, using these assets and this and, like, all of this. But it was, like, hey, like, we kind of got to taste, like, some of the great stuff. Now, the fact that I wasn't back flipping out of the helicopter, like, kicking in the door,

maybe that's always what I wanted to do when I was five, but, like, I'm not a firefighter either. Right. There's also, it's funny, there's also kind of a common sentiment with intelligence professionals and guys in, like, Tier 1 units, is, like, once you get there, and you do the job long enough that it becomes normal, right? You accept that that's just, like, normal, that you're waiting for somebody to tackle. you on the shoulder and go, okay, you've passed, here's the real CIA, or here's the real dev group, or here's the real kind. Everybody thinks that there's like, yeah, there's something behind the fence, like all the real high-speed secret shit is going on.

The stuff that doesn't require any bureaucracy, any paperwork. And by the way, I think what we can say is the people who, like, do do that, I mean, which really just means, like, we now, not universal. and I'm not, but like, it's a lot less cool when like, oh yeah, I've had like five friends killed and last, like, what's the expression? The bloom is off the lily, right? Right, right, right. There's a reality, there's a grim reality behind some of it that. Which is, which Bill was experiencing

at this time, as you leave the CIA, how does, like, about this time, is this when sound off is percolating in the So I come back from from from from Gecko RIP. I mean this is now you know we were living in Mulomar's house which is like a personal point of like pride for us and now it's probably like great grand kid or something is living in that house now. But so I come back and I'm like I got to I got to do it. And we've talked about this. And, you know, I don't want to weigh it into this too deeply.

But a week after I leave, I'm with my now wife at the time, fiance in La Jolla on like R&R back, you know, decompressing. And a friend calls and she says, I don't know, she called late. or whatever it was, but I didn't get the call. She's like, hey, something has happened. Something has happened. So I'm like immediately to my laptop, and I'm like, there was an attack, like, it was

like ominous. So I'm like Googling like Candlehorror. I'm just like trying to find some news. And she calls me and tells me that Rania has died by suicide. And she's there. She was in theater. She was in Kabul when that happened, wasn't she? No, she was in Cano.

Okay, in Canterhorn. And she was supposed to be flying out the next day. And again, that's a really complicated situation that, like, I don't want to fully wait into. Sure. But suffice to say, I'm like, literally buying the domain name for Soundoff when I'm in Gecko. Like, it was certainly like, as if there was any more call to action for William to be doing this because I sat 50 feet from her there.

So I took six months leave from the agency. Totally naively thought, like, oh, yeah, this will be enough time to launch, like, one of the most complicated, like telemedicine things ever. But I said, I'm going to do it. I'm going to try this. And so that's like fall 20, you know, call it late 2013. And the vision for it was really simple, right? It was like a very simple vision at the time.

We are going to have a piece of technology, an app, that would allow bets and service members, and, you know, always in the back of my head, intelligence committee officers, to engage with, to be able to talk to the same clinician over and over and over, and I'm not going to know who they are. It was like that was just like the most basic, simple,

allow true anonymity and repeat engagement. And so... So. You're at a business school. Yeah, so, so, well, I mean, if we, if we, if we want to, I'm, we knew we needed to be a nonprofit. I say we. I think it's fair to say I. It was just you.

Yeah, it was just me. You knew we needed to be a nonprofit because I was like, I don't know how we're going to bill anybody for, truly anonymous support. Right, right. That's not going to work. So, I'm, like, forming a 501,

2, 3, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I'm not saying I know now what I'm doing either, but I definitely didn't know what I was doing. And, you know, you just get tripped up and, like, all the bylaws

for a 5-1, like, just, like, the most, like, basic stuff. And I'm trying to remember of my, yeah, he's out now. So my best buddy, you know, Mike Moreno, who I eode with, was like, I'll be on your board, because I needed three board members to sign my to do the temporary workup. Right.

So you're calling your boys. Yeah, yeah. And I, like, email people, and I'm like, I need another one. And my father-in-law, Paul James is like, I don't even know if I was married to Kelly. I wasn't. But he was like, he was like a former IC kind of tech, like IT contract. So he's like lived kind of in and around the community. And probably also just wanted to support his future son in law

is probably as much of it as anything else. So we incorporate. And I mean, I'll tell you sort of the, what I call kind of like the phase one part of sound off history. is I'm now back at the agency part-time, and we've, like, written a business plan. Like, a lot of this was just, like, whiteboarding for the first year. Like, can we legally do this? What's it going to take?

What's the budget? And I go to, we haven't raised a dollar at this point. And I go to Winded Warrior Project. And we figured if we had a half million dollars in the bank on day one, we could launch and fundraise to stay alive after that. Again, in hindsight, that was totally wrong, but we kind of, that's what we thought. So we go and sit down with Winter Warrior Project and they said, I say that one executive at Wonder Warrior Project said, you don't need a half million dollars, you need like three million. million dollars. And I say, yeah, but I haven't raised a dollar. I've never asked anybody for money. I said, I'm going to ask you for $3 million. And they said, come back and ask us for $3 million.

And I'm like, trying to give you a hint. This fundraising thing is not that hard. So they, people just got to throw money on me? Yeah. So they say, we're going to give you $2.65 million over three years. And I'm like, go going to the moon. And then anybody who knows this space, they entered their own challenging period, let's say it that way, where they had a lot of revenue loss. Like they were making that commitment

projecting like $400 million a year and revenue raised. And then, so they enter this period and everything kind of grinds to a halt. So that deal had been unofficially, officially struck like 2015-ish. And now it's, so I was going, I said, I want to go to business school. And but it was like, am I going to go full-time?

Am I going to go part-time? Because what am I going to be doing? I thought it was going to be launching this new, fully-funded nonprofit organization. So that summer of summer 2016, you know, stressful period, what am I doing? Is this money going to come in? I end up deciding to do the executive program at UT, which was a great experience. January 2017, the new CEO of Winter Warrior Project at the time says, hey, like, sorry, like, we can't come through on this. Yeah.

And, and I just want to say, I know a new warrior project's really charged, like, I just want to say one thing. There was nobody else signing up to give me $3 million. Right, right. Like, there was nobody else like, oh, hey, you know, we got, like. This isn't some VC fund that just pulled the, like, they were people who were doing, trying to do good, and they just didn't meet the revenue. And it was philanthropy. Yeah, yeah. If this had been for profit, I could have raised a ton of money.

But like it was a fundamental conflict in what you're trying to do. Right. So I just say there wasn't 12 other nonprofits lining up to like write a check to my PowerPoint idea. Right. For an organization. So January 2017, the deal dies. And that spring, like, all right, we, maybe we can just raise a little bit of money to build a super MVP just to prove the concept in Texas.

And then everything changes June 9th, 2017. It's really incredible just when we do this kind of timeline in this chronological order, just how eerie and parallel and you're doing this. Let's give another, not eerie, it was known to you. Yeah. I'm getting a call from Sydney, Cirque. 2016 Hey William

What's the deal with sound Because it's not like my whole family is like No here's what happened I called the phone number I look at the website Which I didn't know this I don't know why that But I called the phone number

For the website For the website To see I didn't know Can I talk to somebody I didn't know if it was launch yet We hadn't really Because this wasn't I didn't know the status

like kind of me. I mean, I'm not saying, like, there was not millions dollars in a bank. Right. Like, there was not, like, there was not. And you didn't even really have a minimum viable product at that time? Right. And I didn't know I was just calling the number.

The deal, not to belabor this, but the deal with Winner Boyer Pledge was kind of like it just kind of froze everything for like a year and a half. Yeah. Because like, all of the other donors, not that like people were lining up, give me money, you know, meaning a lot of, a lot of people. But everybody is like, well,

what's happening with the 800-pound grill in the room? Right. Like, so that just kind of froze everything. Right. And maybe I could have been more effective and maybe I should have, like, I'm not blaming it on anybody else, but just the history of it is, everything kind of stole. Right. So you're trying to sell this thing. Let's bounce back to six. Yeah. You call the number. Yes. So I call the number. I don't leave a message, but he sees that I called that number.

And you called me back the next day or a couple days later. You're like, hey, were you calling me? And I said, and you were asking, you were like, you called the sound off number. What's up? And I said, completely lied. And I said, oh, my friend. I was calling for a friend to. to see if it was launched.

It was for Bill. It was for me and Bill. And so, oh, January, so this, you know, time frame, January 2017, Bill retired at the end of that month on his birthday. And he leaves at 20,

20 years, and those next few, few months are really, really dark. We have three kids at this point. So we had had Sam. Sam was, you know, just over a year. And Bill has retired. We are separated. He is renting. He has a little beach rental that he was in for a few months because it was just we had thought that would be the right thing to do to try. Really difficult, hard, scary, rage episodes. He was back down in Texas, right?

He ends up down in burning. He ends up down in Bernie. Because our family ranch is there. Well, he tells me he's going to a brain treatment facility. So he gets on the road, and he tells, drives down to Texas and at this point we have in our relationship have come back together and we're talking about what the next steps are and we have decided the kids and I will move to you go to Texas first go to your brain treatment center we will follow you so that was

kind of we were talking about you know discussing that and logistics and um um So he's down in Bernie. And for about a month, he's down there, I guess. And he calls every day and he talks to the kids and we're talking and continuing to work through our relationship and the mess that it is and trying to work through it. And June 9th, I'll just get right to the day. I won't go too deep with it because I get in the weeds and then I can't really get out. So June 9th, he is in Bernie, and we are FaceTiming, unfortunately, and we get in an argument. And this had happened, unfortunately, quite a few times that, you know, he threatened to take his life several times, and he discharged his weapon a couple of times.

So, you know, we got into this argument, and he showed me that he had a gun. and he was sitting in his car. And so I kind of went to that very, you know, quiet mode and tried to diffuse and tried to calm him down. And he was very calm. But the next thing I know, he put a gun to his head and he pulled the trigger. And I'm going to just kind of fast forward to the next day when William showed up at my house. But let me, I am in a new venture creation course at UT Austin.

And I'm walking on stage to, this is June, this is morning of June 10. To talk about sound off as a thing. and my mom calls me and tells me that Bill has died by suicide and then I go back home I call it very I haven't talked to in years but a very friend I love very much Amanda and I said I don't know how to do what I'm about to do because I'm going to fly to Virginia Beach I got two hats I can't take off I'm going to walk into my sister's home. I'm seeing my sister. And it's almost,

it's, this is, this is a struggle that I've had from minute zero. It's almost shameful, but I knew that this cosmic energy had just been injected in this thing that I've been trying to do for years. I got this other hat.

I literally can't take off. I've been thinking about this all day, every day for years. And I'm going to walk into Sydney's house and people are going to be like, oh hey man like who are you what do you do and me like oh I run a veteran mental health programs actually yeah like I don't know how to do that right and I was scared of shit yeah I said I don't know how to ignore the energy I knew had just been injected into

this thing and I and I flew to Virginia Beach and I walked into Sydney's house and I walked upstairs Sidney was in bed and I will never forget that and I and I you said to me you go Sid like this is

this has I have been living this every day let me let me let me share my slightly tweet I didn't have to say anything yeah you

yeah basically made it okay to connect these two things, right? Like you... I looked at you and I said, we got to do something. You made it okay to say this horrible, terrible, personal thing that just happened

and your job, a poor way to say it. Yeah. Yeah. Like, we're going to do this. Yeah. And... This is what we're going to do this.

Yeah. one of those like really unique situations going on here. It's entirely when we had Kate Rockline on the show who her husband was in the IC of military intelligence and took his own life.

She has two PhDs. One of them is in dramatic brain injuries, wrote her thesis paper on this on this shit. Incredible. Intimately involved in it and she knew exactly what her ex-husband

was going through but was unable to stop it from happening. This would have been, and I just want to be clear when I say this, this isn't a criticism of anybody doing this. The way this normally would have gone is this would have been the Bill Mulder golf tournament. Yeah. And we would have raised a half million dollars a year and given it to the Seal Foundation. Who I love is our criticism. And that would have been it.

And I would respectfully submit that half million dollars would not have like meaningfully moved the needle on this problem. So the fact that this, again, I'd say like just like unbelievable, like universe tragically aligning thing has not only connected us in a way that, you know, certainly I never expected. I think you've said you didn't either. But also allowed this organization, which really isn't the part that matters, this way to help people to come to fruition. I think we were kind of chatting before the show, Dave,

and you were saying we were kind of referencing the transition period and what it looks like to continue to serve after. you know separation from the military and not to get real cheesy but I this to be able to pour energy and put my energy and time and grief and into this it feels like Bill is still serving somehow I get that I understand that and I imagine that there's some part of it that's cathartic for you in order to you know Obviously, you know, like we've all had friends, you know, that unfortunately have reached this conclusion in their life. Which, let me just inject just like, sorry for interrupting.

Like, the fact that we just like accept saying that, like, that's not normal in most communities. Right. Like, everybody said, oh, we've all known, you know, that's not, if you're like a stockbroker, Right. It's not like, oh, yeah, like, I know three or four guys who died by suicide. When we put, like, the onus on other veterans be like, check in on your buddies. Yeah. Like, that's not normal in other professions. The fact that it's, like, we've all had people.

I just want to, like, check that, like, statement for a second and be like, that's fucking crazy. Yeah. Like, it's tragic. Yeah. So I don't, I just want to, like, we've normalized that to the point now that. It's just like accepted. That's like wild. It's fucked up.

Like it's not okay. You know, and you mentioned like the VA numbers. And I mean, the report just came out not too long ago that the VA was like misrepresenting their numbers and they were actually higher than what they were saying.

Yeah. Unless we want this show to go until midnight, the numbers around this problem are incredibly complicated. I think it is a fair criticism that I mean just the shift from 22 to 17 was itself its own like kind of counting thing but I didn't interrupt I just like

no it's fine yeah hey this isn't normal in most communities right right yeah it's and it's when you know I know you mentioned that like Bill was talking you guys were talking to each other every day. Was Bill talking to any of his seal buddies or?

No, not his seal buddies, but his best friend, Brian, who he went to college with. So I don't know if that was, that was definitely a safe person for him, somebody not attached to the, he really had, and after his death, a lot of William remembers this, a lot of the buddies and team guys that were coming to the house were saying, He kind of, he fell up, he, he pulled himself away from us. He really pulled back. So, you know, like, you know, Jack had said that, like, to put the onus on service members or veterans to say, hey, checking on your buddies.

I get that, but I also think that sometimes when people are in that spiral, that they're not going to reach out and they're not going to seek help. And it's very insidious. It happens like so Like so smoothly in a way that they don't even know they're in crisis Until it's too late They don't recognize the crisis they're in sometimes And so sometimes like that checking in on your buddy Is really one of the only like safety valves that we have

Is it when somebody does go dark When you know you haven't seen somebody on social media or her heard from them for a while that it's like, yeah, check in on them because you just, you don't know. And the thing is everybody's life, we all have busy lives. You know, and it's easy to go a couple weeks, a couple months, a year, two years without talking to a good friend of yours sometimes. And then you don't realize that it's gone that long. And you have no idea. You have no idea what's going on.

Yeah. Yeah. You know? And now, I would submit, like, an alternative way to addressing that challenge. Please. You know, some level of that challenge. You know, and we've never really unpacked this, and I think it's just worth, like, exploring for a second. Because, you know, we say, oh, well, Bill didn't seek help, and it's like, oh, well, Bill went to NICO and he did this and this.

Well, okay, for the first, what, 17 years, Bill didn't seek help. Right. So by the time Bill was engaging with help, things were pretty bad. Right. I mean, I'm not trying to, like, so let's take a less extreme example of that scenario. You know, by the time somebody's getting out, if they haven't engaged in any care, they haven't, like you said, they don't know what I'm feeling. they don't know if I'm in crisis, or maybe they do, but like I've never processed any of this at a more basic level.

It's a totally perverse expression to use in this discussion, but it's what people say. We've got to get way left to bang here, right? And so people think often, especially with technology in the better mental health space, so much of the discussion, is about like literally the acute crisis last five minute thing. So people have made the mistake in thinking that Soundoff is like a crisis response tool

or, or, you know, hotline or something. I said, no, no, no. Hand to God before I ever knew what Bill was going on with Bill. The vision for Soundoff was the seal half drunk 2 a.m. let's say five to 10 years into the career, definitely not going to walk into, you know, POTIF or Command Psych or whatever. But knows they should be talking to somebody.

Right. It's preventative. But, hey, I've heard about this thing sound off. Like, I don't have institutional risk if I do this. I can just download this app. Okay, maybe I'll try. that, how does that change the trajectory of the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years? It's almost, it almost seems that the ideal situation, because you're working with a lot of these charities and these veteran organizations, but it almost sounds like the ideal situation

is to get the commands on board and the commands to say, hey, and obviously they can't necessarily enforce it because it is an honest, they say, hey, I want everybody down this app. and I want I don't care if you think you have problems or not I want everybody download this app and I want everybody to talk to somebody. You can spend 30 minutes like just bullshit

and I don't care but talk to somebody. So as if I haven't done enough talking already I mean now maybe the way to get into that is to talk about what the next five years post

Bill's death really looked like do a condensed version though because you can she's not wrong yeah well you all have heard it all I'm with you he hasn't heard it before we're like this so go ahead okay um so we so you know with Bill's death we start to there's attention and ultimately

there's there's funding flowing into this existing ready to go nonprofit. And we start to build technology, which has its own, you know, complications. And again, the vision is, like, really simple. We're going to assign you a username, and we're going to let you talk to this clinician or this peer, and, like, I'm not going to ask you your name. I'm not going to ask you your email.

I'm not going to ask you your phone number and we're going to be thoughtful as we go that we're not collecting a bunch of signature Right type stuff that would let somebody identify you And it's really that simple and we go live in Texas right before Veterans Day 2019 and March 18th sorry February 18 2020 We go into a room with a bunch of wealthy philanthropy philanthropist in San Antonio to ask them for a million dollars for a one-year outreach budget for one state, Texas. And outreach for us is synonymous with growth and scale, right? It's clinicians, its peers, and it's people seeking help. Two weeks later, COVID hits, all right, we're not

raising a million bucks here in the next like two weeks. So this flaw was exposed in the model. Like, we know, we were confident in we can get people to seek help that otherwise would be unwilling to seek help. But how are we going to scale that? And the answer to that was like two or three years worth of work. And as we were discussing before, it like became our superpower. So what we changed was really becoming a force, supplier for other organizations or programming that's already going on. So the sort of prototypical examples, like why am I going to raise money to pay for clinicians

for SEALs or Green Berets or recruit peers from within the SEAL or the Green Beret community or try and figure out how to talk into the SEAL or Green Beret community? when the CEO Foundation and Special Forces Charitable Trust are doing these things all day every day are never going to build what we build, but I don't need them to. Right. Because I'm giving this thing away for free.

Right. So for the next five years, we really proved this, we established and proved this model within the special operations community. So we're partnered with like all the soft organizations. And, you know, we started there because it's smaller,

disproportionate level of philanthropic interest, arguably disproportionate level of need. Theoretically, a little forward-leaning, more forward-leaning leadership. And so we really figured it all out within the special operations community. And, I mean, just to give sort of both the sense of the scale and our success, the problem, now I know the research really well, right? At the time I was tackling this problem intuitively, there's 15 studies that talk about this problem.

Like how many veterans and service members are struggling and are actively choosing not to seek help. And the stats range from 47% to 73%. The misconception in the space is there's all these resources, everybody's engaging with them, and it's just not working. That's not true. There are all these resources. There's all these resources, but half or more of those that need it won't walk in the door. Right. We know that intuitively, but that's like really well established in research.

and the problem is that the way that we tackle that problem institutionally now is I'm sorry but it's just like bullshit like Marine Corps commandant on AFN being like if you're struggling

go seek help and I want to be clear that's good and they should do that so we can try and change some of the culture but for all the reasons we discuss that's not getting it done right because it's like go seek help And here's where you need to go and what you need to do.

And a 25-year-old Marine Raider who's done like three tours is like I'm and my prime, I'm not going to risk losing. I'm sorry, I've got to take one shot across the bell on something. Marines? No, this is not a Marine thing. God knows I don't want to insult the beach. No, the thing I'm going to take the shot across the bow on with my third berb and now I know why you all do this. You warned. You warned me, you were like, I'm going to start a shit talking.

The New York Times acknowledges that we bring people on and ply them with alcohol. No, no, no. No. The thing I'm going to take this shot across the bow on is these like two stars, three stars that will like go on, you know, Twitter and post their like mental health appointment. Right. Okay. You're now at the point where it is essentially politically beneficial for you to talk about that. Right.

Yeah, after you retire. Right. No, no, no. Or even while you're on active duty. You're still active, but you're like, you're not going to lose your job because you're like, your reputation is sealed. Rewind 25 years and do that.

When you were a lieutenant. Yeah, exactly. Like, and that's not me, genius, saying that. Everybody knows that. Right. It's why it doesn't, it doesn't work. Like, there's just, it's just, again, the culture's changing. I'm not saying like, oh, it's all bad.

But like, come on. So just instead of this like, the way that I talk about is just basically saying to you, get over it and change the way you think about this problem. Right. Why don't we just, we change the way that we're delivering care. Right. So you are less concerned about seeking care. And the stack that we cite within Soundoff through admittedly limited support that we provided

is 37% of people coming to Soundoff say, I have not sought help anywhere else, and I am not going to seek help anywhere else. And then we asked all the same studies, the question of why, and it's like everything you know. Yeah. I don't want friends and family to know. I'm concerned about professional blowback.

So I want to talk about SoundOff real quick for people who, you know, might not be aware. And also, this is something right now that is set up right now just for special operations intelligence. It's, we support everyone. Right. But there is admitted, acknowledged, recognized disproportionate level, certainly of clinical capacity. Right. Within the special operations community, because of what I discussed earlier that we have these partnerships. Tell people out there where they can go and find you. Well, yeah. So it's, so our website is sound hyphen off.com, sound dash off.com, but the soundoff app is in the Apple and Google Play

App Store and, you know, certainly come seek help if you are, you know, reluctant to seek help elsewhere. So when you download the app, and please, like, if you're part of that community, and again, it's more right now with conventional militaries, more matter of scale and resources than you guys are being ignored. But when you sign up, it gives you, or when you join, when you download the app, it gives you a list of all the special operations groups, you know, some of the intelligence groups,

and you basically pick which one you're a part of because that helps. It's, I just can't emphasize this enough. We get people coming on who were like, I was at a Marine, you know, let's say Marine, conference today and we had somebody sign up right when I was speaking but then they didn't tell us they're a raider it's essential that you tell us the community you're from right because that's what lets me connect you with say a contract clinician because then I'm gonna go build the Marine Raider Foundation right so if

you don't tell us where you're from right I can't to be clear we very very much have structured this. Even if you tell us I'm from this unit, I still don't know who you all. Right. Yeah. But if you don't tell me you from that unit, I can't build that unit's nonprofit to pay for your clinical support. And you can pick multiple things if you've been in multiple. So if you've been in the 75th range regiment and special forces, you can pick both of those. And then we stack the, yeah. We have partnerships with lots of organizations across dot com that let us stack all that in. And then once they're there, you start the app, you're greeted by an AI, a little chatbot.

And then you have two things on here. There's peer supporter and Clinicious. Can you tell us what the peer supporter is? Yeah, so anybody who is not struggling now and is a veteran or service member, please come on and register as a peer supporter. The peer support thing was quite frankly early on for me, like an afterthought. People were talking about it. And I was like, okay, I guess we'll do that too. And then I was at Warcom briefing last year during the annual suicide prevention training.

And there was a SEAL officer who was hearing about this. And he said, I have not been willing to speak to a clinician because they haven't earned the right to hear my suffering. And I had never heard it said that way. And I just said, this is it. Not everybody's ready. It's not wrong to say, I'm not ready to talk to a doctor. I want to talk to someone who's been there. I just want to talk to somebody that's been there and knows it and can understand it.

And some want to do that, some don't. So simultaneously we have, again, differing levels of clinical capacity of licensed clinicians, which, as you might imagine, just like in a programmatic scaling level is a very different animal. But we let you talk to a clinician, we let you talk to a peer, we let you talk to a robot.

Yeah. And I know that that's a thing. I mean, I've experienced that myself personally, like going to the VA and going through like the six-month sort of therapy thing that they want you to do there and stuff like that is very hard to find a clinician that you have rapport with. If I'm sitting there in front of a 26-year-old guy

who's that's been his whole life, I just, I don't necessarily feel that report. And it doesn't have to be that he's been in combat because, you know, I talked to, you know, a 50-year-old woman who I had that report. I'll tell you where you're going with this. There's a big focus in this space. A lot of clinicians and sort organizations

jump on cultural competency. and look, I think it's good if, like, clinicians are more culturally competent, but full circle this conversation, my mom doesn't know the difference between a Marine and a Soldier. I mean, maybe now she does, but, like, did not know the difference between the Marine and a Soldier. And she saved some guys' lives. Yeah. And I don't think they said, I can't talk to you because you called me, you know, soldier and submarine, right?

But I think that's because she's like a good clinician and like listened and learned and didn't claim to know what the hell she was talking about in that regard. So, yeah. And they're, you know, different people have different personalities. Some clinicians will tell you about times they messed up in their life or things that they went through where you have that sort of mutual empathy and others, you know, have a very sort of clinical approach that some people appreciate. So, you know, you have an opportunity to find people that you jive with.

Yeah. Now, it is done by state, correct, because of, like, laws and things like that? Clinical licensure. So we ask you what state you're in because we've got to connect you with the clinician license in your state. But that's, yes, is the answer. I mean, we got to know what state you're in in order to connect you. And are you guys operating in all 50s?

states right now or yes again but there's like I know this is in the weeds but there's a distinction between operating in all 50 states and having clinical capacity right right right so because because most peers have no geographic restriction like most peers you can see anybody anywhere right clinicians is just it's just a lot harder We have questions for Sidney and William? Let me see here. Oh, is there like a live chat? Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah, they're there in the chat. They got questions. Tell this guy to stop talking. Actually, I think we only have the one. Okay. And Corbyn just says, happy fourth, stay safe, everyone. Awesome. Thanks.

Let me check this. Dee, did we have anything on Patreon? So, William and Sydney, I mean, thank you both for coming in telling your story on the show tonight. I mean, it's like I want to like find a conclusion, but there isn't one because this story is still kind of going on, right? Yeah, I mean, if I, if I may, this moment in Soundoff is, you know, we are now scaling to the conventional force, right?

And to me, I mean, this is like total movie, cheesy, whatever. You're going from like, what, 80,000 in special ops community to nearly a million in the conventional? And 20 million veterans. Right. So like if anybody wants to nerd out on like programmatic scale and how we're doing that, like, I'll have my own live feed going on on Facebook later. Call me. Talk about it for four hours. But I would just submit that that kind of is the.

conclusion. I mean the fact that I've said it many times two things are true if this started with Bill's death this wouldn't exist it would have been too raw it would have been too complicated it would have been the Nogli Gouldered golf tournament but simultaneously this wouldn't have happened without Bill's death it was the injection of energy and and the fact that now we, and I mean we, are in a position where we're even thinking about how to allow any veteran or service member in this country to not have to worry about their job or their brother or sister's feelings and engaging with care and to allow them to engage with care as

we say on their own terms is like such a unbelievable legacy to this story, right? Like it'll be 10 years of growing this, right? Like this, but the growing it part is not the important, I mean it is the important part, but like the fact that we're even able to be in a position to go and do this, is truly the June 9th, 2017 to, you know.

I honestly hope that it becomes a new model of care. You know. We, let me place a little cherry on top. A year ago, the VA launched Mission Day Break. A $20 million grand challenge for veteran, suicide innovation. There were 1,500 applications. These are academic centers. These are like serious people applying. There were 30 recipients. Soundoff was one of 30. That doesn't happen without the entire story that was just heard. Right. The fact that the VA, a

challenging big bureaucratic organization is saying, we We understand there is a role for anonymous care in reaching these people who are otherwise unwilling to seek care. Just half of the people who are struggling is as strong a legacy as I would submit can possibly exist from this terrible and incredibly powerful story that, you know. Sydney, can I ask you? I mean, I'm, I'm, is it safe to assume that you've talked to other spouses who have been through this since. Yes. Yes. And some of my closest friends. For people out there who's

spouse, partner, best friend, especially for spouses though, is there any like advice or any words of wisdom that you would offer them if they start to recognize it or even if they're deep in it? That is a challenge for me, Dave. And I'll tell you, I have had. I have had. a handful of phone calls from spouses who are in crisis whose husband is in crisis and it's a it's really challenging because I and I say this then I I didn't know what to do with Bill and unfortunately I still don't know what to do now of course I you know push sound off and I share resources that have helped me and resources that I deeply believe in, Soundoff being the primary one. But I think it's kind of what we've all

been discussing tonight is just finding a place to talk about it. And I have said this before in my speaking engagements, I wish Soundoff existed when Bill was struggling at his peak. and he could have engaged with this mental health support without anyone knowing, without revealing it to his command, to his brothers, to his wife. Right. And I just, there has to be a place for these men and women to go to. And for this to exist and for this to be anonymous,

to have that complete anonymity is huge. And I guess I can just share that on such a, deeply personal level because of the life experience I had with Bill. And that was the number one thing that we always, for years struggled with, was not being able to reveal what was going on because of professional blowback, just fear, fear-based. You say that you still wouldn't, like, don't know what to do. What about, what about for yourself or for the spouse that's going through it?

it, are there ways they can take care of themselves in that? So I have found that what helps me the most is leaning into those people that I hate that I have, you know, there's a, there are a lot of widows in Virginia Beach, unfortunately. I'm friends with a lot of the extortion widows. Two of my dearest, dearest friends are survivors of suicide as well. and I lean into them more so much and don't know where I would be without those group of ladies so I hate to say that I mean just lean into those those people but I guess I would say the same thing to Bill and I did say the same thing to Bill you know lean

into those there are people here for you yeah lean into them find them lean into them and And so that has helped me the most, is my community and my dearest friends that, unfortunately, we share a lot of the same circumstances and same stories. So I always, I will always put my number out. I will say, call me. If you need to talk to me, call me. I don't know if I can give you the answers, but just somebody to share and listen. Well, thank you both for coming on and sharing with us.

We really appreciate it. No, this is a really, it's a really important program told through a very personal story that I know isn't easy to relive over and over again. Dave, Dee, or you want to tell people what's coming up next week? Because I sure don't know. We are most likely going to have a super cut of all the people that I've talked about, Operation Red Wing, on Friday. Okay.

That's exciting. And of course, an I's on episode early next week too. Yeah. We talk about Friday the 5th? Yeah, coming up. And on that note, please go check out the article that me and Sean Naylor wrote on the high side today

starting the series about Willie Merkerson, who is a Special Forces and Ranger Hall of Famer, got the Distinguished Service Cross in Vietnam, and it may be upgraded to a Medal of Honor. It's, you know, they're looking at it right now. Incredible life story. We're going to publish that story in like 10 or more parts over the summer, starting today and going through, right through July.

So please check that out. You can find it on the high side today. And check out if you feel like it's a resource. that you are a friend can use. Please check out Sound Off. The website is Sound Attack Off or Sound Dash Off, and the app is Sound Off. And register as a peer supporter,

register as a peer supporter, register as a peer supporter. And KGM, thank you very much. KJM said thanks to everyone for this critical conversation. Thank you, critical conversation. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Thanks, everyone, and we will see you next Friday. Yep.