The Team House - The Team House Ep. 21 w/ Private Investigator Paul Ciolino on Amanda Knox, Jeff Epstein, and more.

Episode Date: December 29, 2019

This one is going to rustle jimmies, blow out some o-rings, and generally boggle your mind. In brief, Paul discusses what the real deal is with the Amanda Knox case based on his investigation in Italy, His thoughts of Jeffrey Epstein's death, his work exonerating death row inmates who had been falsely accused, his thoughts on criminal interrogation and the polygraph, his work on sex crimes and how many turn out to be BS, his Army days, and other very high profile murder and sexual assault cases he worked on. Some shocking stuff in here to say the least. Support the stream on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/MurphysLawstreamBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

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with free support services to help them on their parenting journey. Everyone deserves someone they can turn to for help with parenting. Visit child and family resource network.org today. All right, folks, welcome to episode 21. I'm Jack Murphy. I'm here with my friend, Dave Park. And our guest today is Paul C. Alino. He is a private investigator.

A army veteran did a little bit of it all. I feel like in your investigative career, investigating a lot of accused killers, exonerating people who were wrongly convicted. You worked on the Amanda Knox case. You worked on, I mean, what are some of the other big ones, Paul? Well, another big one is Arturo Gotti, a boxer who got murdered in Brazil by his wife. I don't see us You get into it? What?

What do you mean? We're alive. Come on, Dave. You're scaring the squares. This is like Hollywood squares, right? Yeah, I mean, this is, for the record, this is our first time doing this a remote call-in. You're our first remote call-in guest, Paul, so thank you for doing this and bearing with us and all the little technical difficulties along the ways. But I think first I want to start asking you about your time and the time.

Army is a young man and then how you got into private investigations. I was 17 years old down at Fort Polk, Louisiana, and I was 11 Bravo when I went in. And I joined specifically to go to Vietnam. This was, I was on delayed entry, so active duty June of 74. And so we're in, we were the first one-stop unit training in the Army ever. Yeah, what a shithole. I mean, the world's biggest shit hole, okay? And our drill sergeants were two brothers who had just come back from Vietnam, and they were about as mean as they get, okay?

I mean, these guys were like, Joe, we don't know how to do this basic shit or this AIT, so we're just going to run it like we would in Nam. And they were animals. But, and let me tell you, this was not the kind, sweet army. EEOC. This was kick your ass every day, size 12, smoke you from 24-7. It never ended. So we're about August. We're in AIT, and they come out and they said, well, President says no more troops going to Vietnam. That's it. The guys who are there, we're bringing back. You guys are fucked. You're not going. And I'm like, okay, good, can I go home? and it was like, no, your ass is going to Germany. And so I wound up in Germany for three years, 11 Bravo,

and I'm taking a college class at night, Central Texas University, introduction to law enforcement, right? I'm the only grunt in there with a bunch of MPs, and the provost marshal was an E7 on that post. So he says to me one day, you know what, I need bodies. What do you think? I know you like the fight, so I was a bouncer at the NCO club, and they were up there every night. He said, if you like the fight, you could do this job.

I said, oh, yeah, do I got to go to the field? He goes, never. I go sign me up. So that was my start, and I then went back to the States. I went to MP school of Fort McCullough. And I got to tell you, man, I loved every fucking day of that seven years. It was, for me, I was a little streethood, a gangster, and the Army saved my ass. And the mentors and the sergeants I had and the first sergeants and some of the officers were just rock stars.

One of them was Frank Tony. You might be familiar with him, Jack. He was a general in charge of Special Forces. For a while, he got relieved over taking a girlfriend to Africa or something like that. But Tony and I, Tony was my platoon leader in Germany. And he was a quarterback from the University of Arkansas. He was a big old, strong, dumb-ass country boy who was also an officer. We went to the special forces course with all the old, you know, bad toll special forces guys.

And it was basically a two-week escape and evasion course where they just kicked the shit out of us every day for two weeks and tortured us. And I mean, I heard you guys talk about this four in any courses. We got the full Marianne brother. let me tell you. And they broke Tony's arm interrogating him. And Tony eventually goes to special forces and winds up being the commanding generaler. And I'm still friends with a couple of the officers I served with. You know, I had a little West Point guy named French McLean, who's a retired full colonel now. We're pals. It's written a bunch of books about World War II and the Polish ghetto and the occupation. You know, Nazis is kind of an expert on the Nazis. But

just some brilliant people. My first company commander, who I was driver, it was a guy named Rodney Willis, who was the most decorated helicopter pilot in the first armored cab. It's a raving maniac, a high school degree. Daddy was a Delta pilot. That was his way to get into helicopter school somehow.

And the only guy I think of Vietnam, they had two helicopters shot out from underneath them the same day. Jesus. But studs, man. One and all, I mean, just incredible. people. The best thing never happened to me. You're from Chicago, right? I am. So you get out of the Army back home in Chicago.

How did you end up getting involved in PI work? Well, Jack, listen, all I want to do was get a job on the fire department so I could own a bar on the side, right? That's the dream. Bro, my game plan back then was, hey, if I could make $600 a week, my ass is in Fat City, So I'm figuring between a fireman and opening a bar, I got it made. Well, both them. I didn't know you had to know people to become a fireman, basically.

I'm taking all these tests. I'm scoring high, and I'm not getting hired anywhere. And I'm going to school full time, and my own man says, me, listen, asshole, it's nice that you're having a good party every night, but it's time for you to get serious. So I got a friend that owns a security guard company, and he says, you could co-work and study at night and you don't have to, so I got to work for this guy at own security guard company. And I, you know, I give him a resume and next, I'm there about two days in a trucking terminal, you know, basically sleeping all night. And the owner calls me and says, hey, I just looked at your resume.

You're an investigator in the Army and an MP. I go, yeah, he goes, well, we own this detective agency. You're going to be one of my investigators. And I said, well, what do I got to do is about it. I'll teach you what you got to do. And it was basically my introduction to private investigations and pretty much been doing it ever since one way or another. Sorry, we're having some technical difficulties. I just thought Jack was risky with you.

I just see him bending over. No, we're all good. I just had to cut the balls. It's okay. No game of smiles going on to here. Right. So that was how you got into it. But, I mean, you're mostly known for your work with CBS in 48 hours, aren't you?

Well, you know, that involved because early on in my career, I got involved in a lot of high-profile criminal cases. And guys, I didn't know how to do, I had no idea of criminal defense work involved, right? So I get appointed in this federal court case involving mafia people. And my client was a son of a Chicago police sergeant. And his brother was a straight-up outlawed. a gangster. And they had robbed a coin dealer in Chicago and killed him and his wife. Now, my client, the younger brother, was a mopey 19-year-old alcoholic, who his brother picked up on the way to the airport in Vegas with about $600,000 in coins. He meets some outfit guys,

mafia people out in Vegas, and they hack everything. But my guy didn't know anything about it, wasn't involved, and it basically just a younger Mopi brother. So we go to a federal trial last about 10 weeks. And my work clears the younger brother. He's the only one found not guilty. Everybody else goes to jail forever. In fact, his older brother, a kid named Bobby Covelli, still in prison. This is 40-something years later.

And so it started with that. And then I got involved. The woman was accused of sexually abusing a number of children in her daycare center. It was total bullshit. Never happened. But it was the highest profile sex case in the country for about two years. and we just waxed their ass and she was found not guilty

and that was kind of my introduction of dealing with the media and doing work with the media and eventually that leads to me getting hired by CBS News to work on the 48 hours series. So I mean, did you have like some burning sense of justice

that you feel like these people need to be exonerated or was it like just something that they told you to go and investigate and you've realized hey these people are falsely accused like this is bullshit Yeah, bro, I had no burning sense of justice.

I'm in fact as pro-death penalty when I started. Most of my clients were guilty as shit. There were some bad drug dealers and killers, gang bangers. It kind of involved in, listen, I've defended far more guilty people throughout the years than innocent ones, right? When you get that innocent one, you know it pretty quick that they're innocent. And it's scary because there's a lot more. listen, give me a gangster every day. Gangster knows how to go to jail. They know how to do time. They want you to minimize the damage, save them if you can. But generally, they're so stupid you

can't save them because they confessed or got caught with the gun or, you know, told 18 of their closest friends. They're their own worst enemies. But the innocent ones, those are the scary cases because there's so much at stake. You know, you throw some kids. to the wolves in a maximum security prison, his life is over with. Right. You know. So how did it start for you? I mean, do you get hired by a defense attorney to go do the research?

I would, well, my reputation has been such. I get hired by families independent of their attorneys sometimes, right? Or institutions, the Catholic church, colleges, churches, you know, maybe some pastor gets the accusation made against no more. There's a member of the church who the church has rallied around believing they're innocent and they might hire me. So it comes

from everywhere in all walks of life. You just never know who's going to call you and how it's going to take place. But generally initially through lawyers, almost always through lawyers or law firms. What are some signs like you said it becomes

evident very quickly whether or not the person is innocent or guilty? Like what are some of those signs that you pick up on? Well, first and foremost, after you examine the physical evidence and in the crime scene and that sort of thing, you get a real good feeling for your defendant or client. And if there's no physical evidence, that's a red flag because most people are morons. They're going to leave a signature behind, okay? Bloody footprints. Yeah, footprint, fingerprint, DNA hair are going to get caught on cameras.

Their phones are going to be in the area. I mean, there's going to be a lot of stuff that supports the state's theory of why they did it. And when you're not finding any of that, that's a red flag. That's a problem. Because if you can't put them there physically, that's a big problem.

And sometimes they might be there physically, but weren't involved. Or somebody else did it. Or it was a self-defense case. right so but you want you want to listen it's it's all about the evidence generally the physical the stuff that can't be tampered or fooled with that's what you're looking for and and plus you want to sit down with your client interview and talk to him my first talk with him always is listen asshole you don't have enough money to send me on some fairy tale chase okay your mom and daddy

refinanced the house we got 50 grand to figure this out or whatever the number may be do That tell me some bullshit that we waste 30 hours on investigating to find out not true. And generally, an innocent client would be very frank with you, and guilty ones. I mean, the pros, the semi-pros, figure out real quick, you're not their enemy. I'm here to help you. The state wants to put you away for life. Maybe we could get you 20 or 30, and you're out in 25. You still got some life.

So you just have to have this frank talk with, listen, dude, just tell me. me how you were involved, what happened. And it usually takes, especially the amateurs, takes some time for them to come around to that. Interesting. What are some cases that landed in your lap where you saw like really big miscarriage of justices being carried out, or it's like, man, this person is just flat out innocent and this state is railroading them right into prison? Well, let's start right with the big one, one of the big ones, Amanda Knox. Yeah. Manana Knox, her roommate gets murdered on All Saints Day, which is November 1st.

And in Italy, that is the big holiday. Everybody's off. All families are together, et cetera. That debt is bigger than Christmas in Italy, All Saints Day. So she immediately becomes a suspect, her and her boyfriend, a kid named Raphael Soliccio, an Italian kid. And they were going to college at this college that specialized with foreign. students. Rafael, of course, is an Italian, he's not foreign, but he's in the master's program there for computer science. She is a sophomore, I think, from University of Seattle, and she's

over there to do a year in Italy. So she's there maybe two weeks when this murder happens. And her roommate gets killed. She's raped, anally raped, vaginally raped, faginally raped, stabbed a number of times, horrendous bloody crime scene, fingerprints above her head, fingerprints inside her purse on her pocketbook, DNA in her anus, DNA in her vagina, DNA all over the place, okay? It's a pretty easy case on the surface. Now, there's this black kid, East African, who had been adopted by one of the wealthiest families in Peru. And Perugia is an old town, ancient town, you know, a thousand years old or something. Known for making chocolate, basically, and known for their students, and known for everybody's smoking dope everywhere 24-7.

It's a student-driven college town. And Amanda Knox, first time out of the country, 18, 19 years old, she's tasting everything. Her and young Raphael are just man-in-law. And on the night of this murder, they're at his apartment about two miles away, a couple kilometers away. The roommate is home. She was out for the night with girlfriends, a British girl, and she goes home and surprises this guy, Rudy, the black kid. And he immediately assaults her, rapes her, kills her. He takes off, and he gets on a train and goes to Germany to next day.

day. They find some black, some African negroid hairs on her body. They figure out black guys involved, right? Good detective work so far. So if what had, the body is discovered the next day when Amanda and Raphael go back to the house and the front doors open. And this house sits like right below his street and above them is a huge apartment complex, maybe 80 apartments, overlooking this house. So they go to the house and they can tell there's been a problem in the house. And they go to Merrill's room and the door is locked. So Raphael calls his sister, who is an Italian police officer, a military police officer. She's a major or something. She is a also a woman that she wrote for the Italian national team on horses.

Very talented, attractive woman, very smart. And Raphael calls her. I said, listen, we think something happened. She says, hang up the phone, call the local police. Well, in the intern, some local tang guy had found a phone in his front yard, and it was ringing. And he waves down, you know, Jack in Italy, they got ten kinds of police, right? He waves down the postal police. So the postal police get the phone, and they figure out it belongs to this girl at this house.

else. So they show up about the time Raphael's calling the police to say there's a problem. They kick the door and there she is, you know, roughly or horrendous crime. I mean, as bad as they get. So they're off and running. Raphael and Amanda are sitting there. They're cooperating. They're talking. They're telling them everything they know. Everything's okay so far. And then a prosecutor gets involved, the local prosecutor. And he's a little nuts. This dude is getting his advice from a woman who is a psychic and like some kind of Italian royalty, some countess or something, okay? And he's getting heard by being a parent can be really challenging.

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The priest talks to her, she talks to the prosecutor, she tells the prosecutor, this is a terrible sex game gone wrong, the American girl is involved. Well, the problem with the priest part is he's been dead for about five years or six years at this time. So she's talking to a dead priest. And I can't make this stuff up. This is what they're getting their criminal leads from. Well, the Italian national police from Rome show up with all the bells and whistles and toys. And commenced to fuck up the whole crime scene, contaminating stuff.

How do we notice? They videotaped their work. And it was ridiculously bad and amateurish. so they decide they got evidence that supports their theory that Amanda and Raphael participated in this orgy killing this girl some black magic thing right and let me tell you the this was you guys you guys were here when O.J. Simpson was tried I worked on a kid by the way I was a kid too but I remember all right Well, that was the biggest media circus ever, right?

Yeah, yeah. Amanda Knox was bigger in Europe, much bigger. It was nonstop, 24-7 for a couple years on her. And the overwhelming feeling in Europe, to this day, is she was involved and she did it. Why do you think that is, Paul? Like, why was it so salacious? I think, number one, that they don't give a lot of thought to the, the mechanics of the homicide, the real evidence in the case.

They love rumors, gossip, and they really respect authority much more there than we do here. If the police said it happened like that. Well, then it happened like that, and that's all we need to hear. And then you get the media firing them up. And I'm talking about the ad bloid media will print or say anything to sell a newspaper. In fact, Amanda Knox has hit them twice for defamation. and libel a couple times. That really came out in that Foxy-Noxy documentary.

Well, and what happens is, though, they don't care because they make so much money selling these papers and magazines that they'll keep doing it. Whatever judgment they get sold against them is minimum compared to the money they're actually making. So they just keep on and on with this thing. So anyways, we go over there in January, myself and the CBS crew,

some really bright producers. Peter Van Santu's probably absolutely the smartest reporter at 48 hours and shark and doesn't play. I mean, just really, you know, what's the facts? I'm going to report this story factually. I don't have a dog in this fight, etc. So it was a great crew.

It took us about a week to figure out it was total bullshit. It just absolutely didn't happen the way they were saying it was happening. And when I'm confronting the lead detectives, they're just, you know, they're charming, they're nice, they're good looking, they're funny. You know, you want to like these people, but they're idiots, right? I mean, they just don't get it. They don't under, they don't care.

And I'm going to give you an example. I walk into police headquarters, and they have pictures on the walls of their most famous high-profile case. Kid shampings and murders and terrorist stuff. And who's on the wall before she ever goes to court? Amanda Knox. They know this is their big one, right? This is where we all get famous. This is their O.J. Simpson times 10.

And so long before the criminal process started, they just decided she was it. And the lead detective told me that I said, why do you think it's her? He says, well, I'm going to tell you. And he goes, I was looking for her. And I found him eating in the student union. They were eating a pizza. And I knew at that moment, she was guilty. So I'm thinking, I'm looking at him.

I'm like, I have no idea what he's talking. I said, so how do you come to that conclusion? He goes, because if that was me, I'd still be in bed. I said, so let me get this straight. You have a roommate you know for a total of eight or nine hours. He gets murdered. and you're eating a meal two weeks later and that makes you guilty? Yes.

Yes, she should have been destroyed. In bed. Unable to communicate her talk. Their theory at its core. That's like such a Italian patriarchal sort of viewpoint. Like this woman should have been just so devastated and emotional and crying her eyes out. And because she wasn't, she must be the killer. Let me tell you, in this two weeks post, I mean, she's been run through the ringer at this point, right?

I would eat a fucking pizza. I don't know about you. I need a fucking pizza. You're going to eat two weeks later, okay? You're going to eat if you're going to be dead or, you know, in the hospital from being dehydrated. But, you know, she didn't help herself because she's immature. They have her cooling her heels at police headquarters one of the night for about eight hours. And she's in a hallway by herself.

What does she do? She gets bored. She starts doing cartwheels, talking to herself, singing. Well, they took disdemean. She was taking this very frivolously and found it all amusing and stuff. Instead of looking at this is an immature 19-year-old, you know, knucklehead. Right. Who never been in custody, he's never been in trouble, has never dealt with the police, right?

And, I mean, they did some evil shit to her. They went to, number one, they put her in a prison. Paul, do you have, like, Facebook or something open? on your browser because I just keep hearing the ping, ping. Oh, it may be open, Jack. But I'm afraid to shut it down. I might lose everything.

No. What do you think? Think I could do it? Yeah, you can do it, man. And then just open up stuff. Okay? Might be emails coming through and such. Yeah, I just keep hearing it.

Sorry, guys. Again, we are on with Paul Cielino. He is a private investigator. He was actually working over in Italy investigating the Amanda Knox case, and that's what we're into right now. All right, we should be okay. Okay, great, man. So you were saying the Italian police, like, did some sick shit to her also.

Well, when she gets in prison, number one, every male guard in a place tried to, you know, have sex with her. They were flirting with her and offering things. It just never ended. but they sent somebody in there to talk to a medical person and said, listen, you have AIDS, and we need to know everyone you had sex with in your whole life. So she gives them a list of names, and it's, you know, it's for a college kid. It's not that long, but this turns her into the whore of Italy, right?

Oh, my gosh, banged everything that ever breathe, it, walk, boom. and she had her freak on a couple times on the train or whatever, but nothing unusual, nothing bad, but it made great fodder for the, for the, very sensational. And they just, that's the kind of things they would do to her all the time. Now, Amanda's bright girl,

spoke fluent German from her grandparents, she learned it. Her grandfather was a retired Army sergeant in E7. and had a German wife who taught her German, and she flew it in German. By the time she left jail in Italy, she could read right Italian as good as anybody. In fact, gave her own closing argument at one point in Italian. So very, very bright girl, very literate, well-spoken, did a lot of growing up in jail, as most people do. Now, her boyfriend is the unsung hero of this case, Raphael Solicio. Raphael's dad is a prominent urologist in Rome.

His mother had died, tragically committed suicide a few years before. Raphael is a little estranged from his dad, but the father and the uncles, they all come together when this happens, and they're like, hey, there's not a chance my son was involved in something like this, right? But the Italians, their great plan is to get Raphael to testify against Amanda. And they come to the father, and by the way, They ran illegal wiretaps on the entire Solicio family. Holy shout.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. They played every dirty trick they could. And they would go to him and say, listen, you just get this kid to cooperate. He walks out of jail. No charges, no nothing. And his dad and his uncle's going to him with Raphael. You've got to testify against her.

And Raphael's like, not happening. I didn't do it. And she was with me, so I know she didn't do it. I'm not testifying against her. I love her. He's mad in love, right? And they're really putting the pressure on this kid to testify. And by the way, he's not,

a man is in jail, and she's getting Italian classical guitar lessons every Wednesday from some visiting college professor. Raphael's in jail. He's eating roaches in the dungeon somewhere, okay? Two entirely different things of custody. And Raphael is like, they're putting the heat on him, man.

And finally, Raphael, and he's got a lawyer who's like, I believe maybe he'd be one of his uncles is a lawyer, and his uncle's like, you got to do the right thing here and testify. Not happening. I will go to jail forever before I do that. Damn. So you take this soft computer kid. Yeah, he looks like fucking Harry Potter.

Exactly. He's a gathering of Harry Potter, right? Yeah. And Raphael is a stand-up dude, man. I'm telling you, he's not going to flip. So he finally gets this woman who's an Italian attorney. She's a member of parliament, but she's one of the best known criminal defense lawyers in Italy. And she goes in interviews Raphael, and she comes back and she says to the family, listen to me.

This kid will never testify against his girlfriend, not fucking happening. So we're going to have to win. And Amanda had these lawyers that were terrible, frankly. Just they were civil attorneys, you know, we call them white shoe. leather guys in the States, they had no idea how to deal with a criminal case, right? But this Italian female lawyer, she was an animal. And she says to Raphael's family, we're going to have to investigate this thing and win it on the merits because there's two idiots representing Knox are no help.

But we're going to have to do this. Wow. And basically, she carried a day, plus there were some Italian, some really bright people, retired federal police officers who got involved, some scientists types that said, you don't have any evidence. It doesn't exist. And she was convicted initially. Right. And you could see she was going to, it was a kangaroo court, basically. She had no chance. So they both get convicted. And then the appeal case is where she won. But I bet we probably did three or four stories of 48 hours. And I'll tell you guys, the heat you take for taking an unpopular.

the position, i.e. she didn't do it, was unbelievable. The hate mail. You can't be reading the shit. Your critics out there were, they were just unbelievably pissed off, which is in every high profile case I've ever dealt with, half the people are going to hate you. Yeah. Do you think that's because people, like, in you, we understand why it happened or sort of why happened in Italy. But here in the United States, do you feel like it's because people have invested in or they just want to believe in justice? I think, listen, everybody in this country has no idea what goes on in the criminal courts of this country or how investigations are conducted or who knows how to conduct an investigation,

what's proper, what's improper, what's legal, what's illegal. Nobody really knows. unless you've been through the system, you're a member of it, and even people who are members of it often don't know because that's not their area and they don't deal with it. If most Americans knew what happened, they'd be very unhappy. It's political, it's racist. I'm here to tell you, it's racist. If you're a black guy and a white guy standing there

and you did the same thing, the white guy's going to get the break every time. Just the nature of the beast. Unless you get a rich white guy who's innocent, and man, they want to drop the hammer on him. Just to show, hey, we can deal with these white guys. So y'all calm down. We'll nail the occasional white guy. Well, but it's interesting that in this case, it's reversed. I mean, I know Italy, and that country has every incentive in the minds of the people there to nail the East African immigrant.

like they are like lower than dirt in that country. But they went after a well-to-do white girl. Right. Well, she was beautiful. Okay. She was, the media loved her. They loved her. And they loved the idea that this beautiful, good-looking girl from Seattle, Washington could commit such a horrendous crime.

It was just, this is like a wet dream for a media types. And I had to tell you, we went over there. and it was so clear, so quickly. Rudy Gadegh, the guy who did the murder, is such a scumbag, drug dealer, a burglar,

a home invader. His crimes were escalating, right? And it's classic. He, his criminal activity led up to this moment where he raped and killed the girl,

right? And Rudy's a piece of shit. He was bad seed from day one. This Italian family that adopted him, did everything they could to give this kid every break in the world. And Rudy started selling drugs like high school, 13, 14 years old. Really good basketball player played some semi-pro basketball in Italy for a while,

but never had a job, ever. It was known for burglaring and confronting Italians in their houses at nightpoint and robbing in the middle of the night. Paul, Andrew is asking us on the live feed about what happened to the prosecutor in the Knox case. And it reminds me, you also told me about a previous case that the prosecutor had where he also tried to railroad somebody else in a serial killer case, if I remember right. Yeah, there was. There was a very famous serial killer case throughout Italy. And what was happening, you know, in Italy, young people can't afford to buy a condo or a house. Right.

They almost live with their parents until they get married or take over the house, right? So what is normal is that guys and girls would get together in their cars and make love in their cars and put paper up and be in isolated area as a whine or some kind of farming area. They'd go out and have sex. Well, there was a string of homicides where this dude would walk up the couples having sex, shoot the man in the head, and then sexually mutilate the female. victim. And there was about seven or eight of these that happened. And an American writer named

Doug Preston, who's a number one New York Times bestselling author, look him up. He's got... Yeah, nothing. He'll have a... All right. Doug was living in Italy with his wife and kids, and he got bored. And so he's

reading, he spoke and read Italian. He's reading about these stories and he gets interested. So he calls the Italian journalist who's really doing good work on this stuff. And he says, hey, I'm a journalist. I'm an American. Could you use some help?

I'd like to help write some of this stuff. And he goes, yeah, so they get together and they start investigating these crimes. Well, the same prosecutor that had Knox had this case. And I don't remember the details, but he arrested the wrong guy. All right. And it was clear that he arrested the wrong person. Well, the Italian, Mario Spiza is the Italian. journalists. Really good guy.

And this prosecutor came down on this journalist, search warrants, throwing him in jail. Wow. I mean, he brings Preston in, and however, I'm giving you eight hours. Get out of the country with your wife and kids. Preston left his furniture. He left everything there, got on a plane, first thing smoking left.

Spisa got thrown in jail for a while, destroyed his house with search warrants and shit. So when we, I got about the Knox, I get a call from Preston. And he goes, hey, I know all about this prosecutor. So, I mean, this was like great stuff, right? I had no idea. And he had this, historically, this is what he did.

He'd arrest the wrong person and then trying. Great case. And he was bulletproof. Nobody was going to do anything to him. He was like the king in the little town he lived in. So how did Knox end up getting sprung out of prison then and getting back home? because she's back in the States now. Oh, yeah, the Italian Supreme Court sprung her.

They said, we find this to be nonsense, not guilty. Adios, you're gone. Go home. And she got on the first thing smoking and got home. She, and she was lucky because more legal stuff went on and on. But she has since been back to Italy, given a speech or two, I guess. And it's still hated. I mean, being a parent can be really challenging.

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Visit child and family resource network.org today. not like at all. The Italians do not like Amanda Knox. And there's also a little post script for you, isn't there, in this whole story? Well, I'm on a Seattle radio station during the heat of all this. I'm getting interviewed, a big radio station in Seattle, and I said, listen, this prosecutor, he's an out-of-control lunatic. Well, the prosecutor went out and got a, under the new mob. law as they have. If you talk about a prosecutor, they can indict you. No matter what you say about

them, just talking about them to the media, right? I'm an aware of this law, and I hate to remind them, I'm in the United States when I'm doing this. I'm not in Italy, but they secretly indicted me, allegedly, State Department told CBS not to let me come back to Italy. Not a good idea. It's completely insane. And it just shows again, like, politically how important this case was to them. And it's, and I know you explained it, Paul, but it seems so bizarre. It's like they had to nail this girl to the wall. Well, and, you know, they kept her locked up for a couple years.

But, hey, she came out of it. Hey, listen, she got, I think, $3 million on a book. Yeah, book deal. So movies, she's broke now. But she became whole again, more or less. and I think she's still trying to find herself. I mean, it's a traumatic experience to be locked. Although, let me tell you, she's locked up in a beautiful prison, getting college lessons.

She's with a bunch of roommates. They cooked their own food. So it wasn't like Raphael. Rafael is in the dungeon, okay? And they're putting hardcore mafia killers in their widow that are trying to get some information. and they even grew to like Raphael and respect him and said, hey, don't talk to me because they want me to testify against you.

Okay? I mean, that's the kind of person Raphael is. And I great respect and admiration for that kid because he had no background to be like this, right? And most of my experience, they're going to throw her to the wolves. Say adios, baby, sorry, but... What about the actual killer?

Did they ever put him away? Yeah, he got... He got locked up. He's now like on, he gets to go out on, like, little mini vacations. Oh, good. He'll be out of jail in a year or two for real. What happened with Raphael, ultimately? Raphael's still in Italy or living in Europe somewhere.

He's a very, very bright computer guy, as far as I know, doing very well. Was he dishonorated? His sister is another story. His sister was with the Italian military police. got fired from her job, and she was gay, and this was a big problem, I guess, for the attack. Okay. So was the result of him. It was something separate?

Well, just another way of torturing the family, basically, right? And they went after her. She played it right by the book. He calls her out, and she says, hey, hang up the phone, call 911, and cooperate with the police when they come. That was her advice to her brother. And, of course, they're tapping her phone after that and accusing her all kinds of shit. She never did. And they destroyed her career.

I mean, she was a career of police officer. So I don't know what she wound up doing. But the Soliccio family is nice people, good people, you know, well-educated, bright, hardworking, et cetera. I want to just move on from Amanda Knox for a moment and ask you, there's this question that they ask, I don't know if you've ever been pulled in for jury duty, Dave. I have, but never even got this far. But my friends, they get put on the stand during jury duty. And one of the things that the lawyers asked them,

do you believe police officers perjured themselves? Well, do they get on the stand and why? And you're supposed to answer that question a certain way to get selected for jury duty. And I just wanted to know what your thoughts are on that topic. Well, my idea is I would say, anything to get selected on a jury so I could screw it up when I get back there and tell them what really happens. But they never let me serve on a jury or anyone like me. That's not going

to happen. But yeah, the police are the greatest public relations people in the world, all right? They don't lie. They're like Boy Scouts. They get up in that nice uniform or suit, and they justify, and no matter how crazy or ridiculous it might seem, they get every benefit of the doubt, right? We know for a fact they lie, and they lie in magnificent and create. of ways and they've been caught lying thousands of times in many cases. It generally has people give them a break every time and judges almost never ever punish them for lying. Almost never. They don't take on the police. But to answer your question, I would say, well, you know, I suppose they could lie, but generally I think they're very honest and they never, you know, they probably

don't. So Paul, this actually kind of wraps into, you were very responsible for like the I guess repeal of the death penalty in Illinois. I know there was one particular case, but it was a number of things leading up to that also. What did you find, not only with the case, it was a stone? I'm trying to remember. Anyway. Al Story Simon and Anthony Porter is the case.

Right. But in addition to that, you did a number of things leading up to that to show that other death row inmates were innocent, that people serving life terms were innocent. What have you found through the course of your career, like, how does justice carried in this country? Well, let me tell you, number one, the death penalty does not deter anybody from committing homicides or doing anything crazy, okay? Doesn't work, it's never worked, is not a deterrent, period. It's a political tool that prosecutors use to make everyone feel good. All right?

We're going to punish this animal and kill them. Is that why it's disproportionately used against the black community? Well, black and brown community. And never mind, Native Americans who are at the bottom of the shit list and get shit on every day in every courtroom in this country almost. Okay. but most primarily African-Americans and Hispanics get the death penalty at about 10 times the rate a white guy will for the same crime.

So we know that because it's been studied over and over and over 100 times. But beyond it being racist, which it is, it's racist. There's no question about it. The further south you get in this country, the more racist it is, okay? but west Oklahoma, West Virginia, Florida, Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, you go check the death row, and it's so out of proportion to the regular population of who's sitting on death row, right? And generally it takes mostly 15 to 20 years to kill your ass once you get the death penalty. If you're on death row, you're entitled to all kinds of free benefits, all right?

free lawyers, free investigators, it costs millions to kill your ass. Now, assuming you're guilty, okay, we gave you every chance in the world, right? But if you're not guilty and they kill you, there's no recourse guys, right? I give you life in prison and personally, give me the death penalty. I do not want to live in a maximum security prison the rest of my life. No thank you under any circumstances. Some guys care less about the death penalty, but mostly it's not a good idea because it's irreversible. And too much money and effort is spent on getting the death penalty in those cases.

You accomplish the same thing with life without parole. You really do. You take them off the street. The only person they might kill again is another inmate. And I will tell you, most people who commit murder do not reoffend. Most murders are domestic-related or a one-shot deal. But, you know, the crazy gang killer guy, the guy, I've had clients who kill 15, 20 people. There's no question about it.

Gang members in the streets of Chicago known for doing it. And they get convicted. They're not going to kill anybody anymore because they're out of the gang thing, unless they're in jail. It's a gang thing, right? But they're off the streets, and that's it. You're not going to punish them anymore by giving them. them the death penalty. You punish them by taking them out of their game, whatever game they're in. But the death penalty doesn't work. It's too expensive. It's too controversial.

Give them life without parole and throw the key away. Done. What are some cases where you've actually gotten people, because I know you have gotten some people off of death row, like actual death row inmates who are on their way to the electric chair and you exonerated them? I'll tell you to Fort Heights four was the first big one. Four black guys. A white couple get kidnapped and murdered out of a gas station one night. The southern suburbs of Chicago. Their girl is gang raped and tortured.

Horrible, horrible death. Beautiful young white kid. Her boyfriend, he escapes and they catch him and they shoot him. They just shoot him, leave him laying in. ditch. She is repeatedly raped in an abandoned townhouse in a place called Fort Heights. Terrible, broke-ass neighborhood. The next day, the police are out there. All the residents are out there, and they grab a couple guys who look like the usual suspects guy named Dennis Williams. And I'm trying to think of Kenny's last name. It'll come to me in.

They grab these two, bring them in, and they decide they're involved in the homicide. a couple of other their friends get picked up, and so they're off and running. The Fordites 4 are charged with raping and killing this young girl and her boyfriend. They didn't do it. By the way, DNA all up in her, okay? Four strands of DNA from four defendants. When this happened, there was no DNA.

It happened, I think, in 81 or 82 somewhere around there. Fortunately, but the crime lab people from the Illinois State, police come in and say, yeah, you know, it's these four guys. We could tell about their blood type, it's them. It's their sperm, right? They're convicted. By the way, every one of them got lawyers that are drunk, falling asleep, got disbarred. They're tried.

They went in appeal. They get tried again. When another appeal, get convicted again. By the way, all white juries every time. on all four of them. Two of them get the death penalty. Two of them get like life and crispy. All right? So we get involved in this case because a guy named Dennis Williams, who's the lead defendant, there's one angry black man. And he's calling a friend of mine by the name of Rob Warden, who's an editor for the Chicago lawyer magazine. And Dennis gets him on the phone one day, and he's

so convincing Warren says, let's take a look at this case. So he calls me up. We start investigating it. And lo and behold, we identified. four other guys who were involved, right? And we involved them because we actually read the discovery in the case. Not me personally, but someone read, one of the cops wrote a note, and they had an informant and said, these are the four guys that did this murder. And they named them.

So we started looking at these guys. And went and talked to everyone, all four of them confessed to the murder. Holy shit. Now, we've got four guys sitting in jail to them, on death row. What do you think the state did? The state said, hey, fuck you, bullshit. They didn't do it. Prove it. So they're not letting anybody out of jail. I'm not arresting these guys. One of them confesses on TV and TV camera. Well, we finally get some Yale professor to do a DNA test. not only do we prove that our guys were not involved in this murder but the well through it

out of the four people one of them was dead uh other and it was the brother of one of the defendants guy named ira johnson who confessed to me in cook county jail told me how him and his brother and them raped this girl robbed them and why et cetera et cetera so their DNA matches up it's them There's no question about it. Now, when they kidnapped these two out of the gas station, there was six of them in the car because there's four defendants and the two victims. So here's what the state says when we come up with this. Judge, and as a brave woman judge named Sheila Murphy was hearing all these post-conviction

motions, Judge, that just means there was eight defendants in the car and the four who were in jail, then rape her. I can't make this shit up, okay? So Judge Murphy was not buying. And it was the first time in the United States at that point that we were able to, DNA cleared four people in the same case. Wow. And convict the other three, who were three survivors. And they all pled guilty and went off the prison for the rest of their lives.

But they all did an average of 18 years in jail. I got them hooked up with Jerry Spence, very famous trial attorney. out of Wyoming and Jerry Spence came in and got six and a half million dollars for the guys. At that time was a record verdict. And they've done well since then. They're good people. All four of them were pretty good guys. One of them was dead now, died of a heart attack.

And mostly the stress of these things. Yeah, ages you. Yeah, it ages you and it kills you eventually. I mean, it just will carry you up. It's just super frightening the way the state in these cases will just, like, once they're setting on a path, they've made up their mind, and they're not going to change it. Well, and that, if I could tell you, the biggest problem in wrongful conviction cases, and we're always, listen, I'm always, let's go talk to these people, the prosecutors, the police, let's show them what we have. Let's be reasonable and nice. and usually we're showing the door

you know stick it up your ass we got it right you guys are wrong and you know game on well of course then in comes the media and the newspapers and sort of fights on at that point and it's always

a struggle but but I would tell you have gotten seven people or eight or nine off a death row and or doing life okay that's not one of them was guilty not even close Well, on that note, do you want to get into this controversy that you and I had discussed on the phone, the murder of the park documentary, in which it was alleged that you got a guy off the hook who was in fact guilty?

Yes, yes, that was alleged. And they did a very good job of promoting that fairy tale. They made that movie, Murder in the Park, which was total bullshit, full of lies, full of lies. full of libel, full of everything. This will get subpoenaed. Don't worry, Jack. It's coming at some point. You don't have to subpoena it when it's live streamed on the internet, Paul.

I know, but these guys are idiots, so you'll get a subpoena anyway. Just so they can say they say they, see him. We'll see him in from New York, all right? This is who I'm dealing with, right? They basically said that I stuck a, on this guy's here forced him to confess and poor guy didn't know what to do

so he confessed and he got a lawyer and a lawyer put him guilty and and my guy was guilty we were just doing it right because we hate the death penalty this is such bullshit I can't stand it because

the guy we did get out of the jail nobody liked nobody hung out with he just clearly did not commit this homicide double homicide right had no motive no opportunity no reason other than he was a mope, a thug in the neighborhood,

who the police decided he had to go because they didn't like him, because he was a bad guy. But he didn't do this double homicide. That's the problem. And we proved unequivocally he didn't do it. And when I got this guy's confession, I did it on videotape. Now, Jack, you would think it's on videotape, and everybody could see it, everybody could hear it,

and everybody could see he's not under any duress. By the way, this guy had been to prison a number of times. he was a straight-up gangster killer. Al Story Simon is admitted to killing three people. Now, now the boys, I call him the DePage County Taliban because they act like the Taliban, but they have law licenses, right? They show up and convince this guy

that they could get him out of jail. And guess what? They did get him out of jail because they got the lead prosecutor in Cook County, woman named Anita Alvarez, another rock star. They get her to believe, going to be a movie star with this movie. By the way, these lawyers are financing this movie, by the way. So you all understand this. The lawyers are making this movie. It's a propaganda

effort. Yeah. It's a propaganda movie. It's exactly what it is, right? So they're making this movie. They're showing the prosecutor cuts at night. Look how this great this is. So her office does this investigation of our investigation that had sprung this guy, got this guy convicted, and they tell her, do not let this guy out of jail. He's bad. bad news. And she says, well, I'm going to be a TV star. Fuck dad. And she lets them out of jail. And now we all look like we're pieces of shit, all of us, right? We made this up. If we made dad up, we made up all the other cases we worked on. Northwestern is scumbags. Sealino's a gangster. It just never ends. The only problem is, is Northwestern is a bunch

of cowards because they get sued and they get tired of paying their lawyers and they settle for pennies on the dollar. and the professor settles for no money, but they let him out. I don't settle. I'm like, boys, we're going to trial. I'm not settling anything. Well, he dismissed me from that lawsuit. And come to find out, lo and behold, after we started this lawsuit, they started,

we found out Mr. Alstoy, Simon, confessed eight more times in writing. Not once, not twice, eight times. Oh, and he was on a Milwaukee TV station that he confessed to. Listen, the guy confessed anyone he ever talked to about it until these guys showed up. By the way, they paid him thousands of dollars while he's sitting in jail into his commissary account. Now, these are records I've got. For his movie rights? Oh, yeah, we're going to take care of you.

By the way, one of the producers lives in Cleveland. So a good old Al Story who's been a Chicago and Wisconsin gangster his whole life, all of a sudden he was living in sunny Cleveland so they could keep an eye on him. But they bought him a car. They gave him an apartment, right? And he's out of jail and living in the high life. I'm waiting. He'll kill somebody else.

Don't worry. He can't help himself, right? But, and by the way, he's never been deposed because he dodged service, filed a lawsuit. I was the only one to get him served finally, mostly because he's an idiot and he was easy to find. But the point is, they, I've been in this litigation six years. They have not deposed. They don't want to question me. They don't want to talk to me.

They don't want me to testify, and I have a $25 million suit pending against all these actors, right? So one of them is the current vice president of the Feternal Order of Police, Chicago Police Department, who make fat shit who worked paddy wag has never arrested anybody in his life, okay, and thinks he's some kind of writer, all right? There's two XATF guys. There's three attorneys, all with personal fortunes, excess of $20 million, defending. police commanders and detectives in wrongful conviction cases. That's how they made their money. They've made, I've done freedom of information requests, right?

Two of the lawyers have made over $20 million in fees defending these cases. So, pardon me, the whole thing was let's discredit Northwestern, discredit C. Alino, who's like, you know, at ground zero on all these cases, and make them all look like shit and get the death penalty back. and for a while that was working. But the tide is turned. And so as we go forward in litigation and that sort of thing. So these are really just wealthy people who are just cock hard about getting the death penalty back.

Well, listen, it's a business plan, bro. Okay. And it's one I wish I would have thought of because what you do is defend the indefensible. And you defend these cops and bad people who put cases on people, create, make it up, lie, et cetera. And you're defending them when they get. sued by the guys who were in jail, right? So what you're doing is,

hey, we're all for the police. We're for the government. We're going to defend your guys' actions. We're going to defend the indefensible. And Cielino and Northwestern and Professor Protes, et cetera, they're your big pain in the ass. We're going to put these guys out of business.

That's their game plan. That's what they've tried to do. Does that point into the larger deal with the Innocence Project and all those things? Absolutely. Now, take the Innocence Project in New York and Barry Sheck and them guys, Peter Neufeld, they deal strictly with DNA issues, right? So if you're just dealing with science, it's a lot easier.

All my cases almost always involve statements, witnesses, hard, nitty-gritty, investigative stuff you've got to do, right? Science usually does not bail us out. Because, frankly, if you're not accused of a rape and there's not a rape kid around, there's usually no DNA around, right? So being charged with rape and murder wrongfully is a good thing. Without the rape, the chances of any physical evidence that could clear you is slim, especially after 15, 16, 17, 20 years. But there's been over 3,000 people exonerated so far, wrongfully convicted of homicides in this country. Let's not even talk about dope drugs, rape, sex cases. Probably 50% of all.

sex cases reported are false allegations. Whoa, Paul, you better be careful there, bro. You're going to get the PC mob after you're saying that. That is a fact, okay? It's a given fact. 50% of all reported sexual assaults did not occur. And I'm telling you, you've got a young man in your family who's getting ready to go to college.

My advice is to tell them how to find Pornhub and stay away from the parties because in Illinois, we just passed a law that you could be, there's no more statute of limitations on an abuse of, on a charge of sexual assault. So if you're Loyola or Northwestern and you, Honey Hook up, you know, let's say in 2020 after the football game and come 2040 and you're running for Congress or maybe the Supreme Court and she decides she didn't like your ass. And she calls up and says, hey, that dude raped me back in 2020. Guess what? You're probably going to get charged with that rate. whether it happened or not. I mean, we're making a lot of bad laws.

And listen, I work sexual assaults on children for many years, especially in divorce cases where the allegation is sexual abuse. It's almost always bullshit, all right? And fathers and step-parents do boyfriends, do molest children with regularity, but a lot of times there's a lot of false allegations, man. And when you get that allegation made against you, look out. you better have some really sharp people working for you or you're going to prison for a very long time. I mean, I know it's not like the PC thing to say when everyone's like believe women and all this.

And it's like, I absolutely believe when somebody brings an accusation forward that needs to be investigated thoroughly and taken seriously. But I can't just believe women on blind faith. Just like I can't believe men on blind faith because of the things we've been talking about here. People are fucking liars. People across the board, they fucking lie. They lie magnificently. And you don't know what the agenda is, right? I mean, you look at the Kavanaugh thing, right?

You're never going to convince me Kavanaugh raped anybody in high school. I mean, just not the type. And there would have been a lineup of him if he was. It just, it was all political, in my opinion. And not that I'm a fan of Kavanaugh or even care about his little yuppie ass. and yippie for him, he's on the Supreme Court. But, man, that was a horse shit case from day one, I thought. And I'm glad he got on.

Frankly, I don't think he deserved not to get on based on those allegations. You know, Paul, Jack and I've talked before. We've both done, like, battlefield interrogations and things like that. We've talked about, like, the Reed course. And I think Reed is from Chicago, too, right? John Reed, I'm very familiar with Reed, and I am a proud graduate of all the Reed courts. Nice.

John Reed was a polygraph examiner at Chicago Police Department. And it was a true scientist. John Reed wanted to know why people confessed. And I know many people who started that company with him, who were the initial trainers. Some of the best interrogators I ever met, worked with John Reed. And John Reed was the go-to guy for the FBI, CIA. John had to figure it out.

why people lie, how they lie. And he did it scientifically through study and everything else. And John got it wrong on occasion, not too often, but he'd blow it occasionally, or he'd play politics for sure. But the John Reed method works. If it gets abused, then it's bad. And some people have abused it. Yeah, what do you think about that stuff that came out in the making of a murder or

documentary where they used the read interrogation method on a kid who he was, like, 17, low IQ, like borderline mentally retarded. And the accusation is that they railroaded him and got a false confession. I know a lot of people involved in that case. I don't believe them. Those two cats are guilty, especially the younger kid, okay? The cousin, idiot cousin. If you abuse it, you could get somebody of low IQ, not involved in the system.

You could get them to confess. But let me do something very unpopular. The Central Park Five, I know I've read a lot of reports on this. I don't believe that was a false confession, guys. That's a great. Really? Yeah, I think those guys were involved, and I thought that they were treated very well. I've seen the interrogation tapes.

I read the reports. I think the police officers had handled that case did a really good job. And the prosecutor, who was in charge of it, had in a long time had a bit. it and was known for not playing games and not lying, cheating, you know, gilding the lily, what have you. So, Reed is very misunderstood, but I think very effective still. And I'm pretty sure every government agency still uses it. It's like anything else though you could abuse it. Do you feel that somebody has to intentionally abuse it or do you think that based on their intent, they can accidentally abuse it, you know, just going on to hunt your gut feeling.

Yeah, you know when you're abusing it, right? When you're really leaning into some young stupid kid and you go overboard, right? You should know, listen, I'm always a big believer in that. Better give me some physical evidence to help me out here, okay? These cases are just, you're going straight on a confession. They're tough. And you better have a lot to back it up. So hopefully, when you do that, you've got, you know, you've got it.

You've got the goods somewhere else and some third party verification of some type, be it scientific, eyewitness, whatever. Actually, do you want to explain for the people who don't know or watching the kind of what the read method is in general? Sure, the basic read method is a series of questions that will list. how you're feeling. What's your excuse for not doing this primer, right? I didn't do it as a good. Well, why didn't you do it? And tell me how that happened. But you're looking for answers and you want to, you're looking for weaknesses, all right? You're watching body language, how to act and how to responding to you. But we know body language a lot of times is culturally driven, Native American, almost never look at you in

the eye. You know, you look at the read method. If they're not looking, you know, they might be lying, being deceptive, well, culturally, you've got to make sure certain Asian cultures also. Yeah, exactly. And certainly Asians interview different than Eastern Europeans interview.

And Hispanics interview different than Polish guys do. You've got to be sensitive to those issues and language, right? You've got to be very careful when you're questioning somebody where there's a language issue. And

if you've got a Spanish guy, you better have somebody who's trained a Spanish investigator who's trained in the Reed method. Or it's not going to work. Bad things will happen. So it's a course of study. They're very good at it. They put you through the ringer. It's a good course. But the thing with interrogations and interviews, you got to do them often.

You've got to be doing a lot of them. If you're not doing it, you know, every week or every day, you get rusty and you start making mistakes. and so a lot of its practice and experience. And, you know, fellas, I'm a big believer. Turn the fucking video camera on. Let's go from start to finish, all right? Turn it on because people, if they hear it and they see it, they're much more likely to, if you did something a little improper or something

or leaned on the guy a little hard, they're going to forgive you, all right? If you're the police, the police saw, I give you example. Minneapolis Police Department years ago said every murder case, we're turning the camera on the minute you hit the police station, the interrogation room. They never lost the case because someone was too mean or too harsh, tough on anyone. And so they proved that, listen, the public and judges are very forgiving if there's some misconduct. If there's outrageous misconduct withholding food, baths, slapping them around in their face screaming, and maybe the kids down syndrome, right? Or autistic. Here's another problem we have is all these people who are borderline mental defectives. They look normal. They act normally. They may speak normal,

but maybe they're not normal. If you have videotape, you solve a lot of those problems. Chicago supposedly every murder interrogation, confession, they put on tape. They still don't get them all on tape. And frankly, the confession's great, but you'd like to have the whole interrogation on there. Right? So it works. It's effective. It's a good tool. It does get abused, though. I want to move on to a couple other topics, but real quick, before we go, thank you Alex Bennett for the donation. I'm going to get to your question just a sec. But first, I just wanted to remind everybody who's watching us. Please remember to subscribe to our channel. Please hit that bell icon so that you get notified when we go live next.

And thanks for joining us. Otherwise, Merry Christmas, everybody. I know we're coming up on it quick. Yeah. And other than that, I just want to remind you, there's a link for our Patreon account down in the description. So if you're interested in supporting the stream, take a look at that, and there's some rewards

in there. And otherwise, thanks for joining us live. Let's also, you have a stream also. A podcast. I have a radio show on WOSAM in Chicago on Saturday nights and a podcast at every week. So we have the Chicago Po Po Poe Report. And it's basically we covered all the crimes that happened in the previous week and never take ourselves too seriously. I was listening to it today.

It's funny. So that's the Chicago Po Poe Poe Report, right? For people who are looking for it? I love the Poe Poe Report. Yes. And Paul was also the author of. six books that you guys can go and take a look at. Your most recent one was about the history of paramedics. I think the first person to write a book on that subject. I think I am the first

person to write the creation of the program and how it came about. And it's called Dead in Six Minutes. Basically of a doctor named Stan Zidlow, who was a doctor here outside Chicago. And he created and trained the first paramedics in the United States. Dave, you were 18 Delta, weren't you? No, I was a Bravo. Not you, Jack. I know you're just a gunslinger, but Dave? No, I was a Died MetTech and then 11 Bravo in the Ranger Battalion.

All right, but I was a corpsman. Yeah. Listen, the paramedics is the single greatest medical invention happened in this country in the last 100 years. That the lives they have saved, pre-1972 guys, no ambulances, no paramedics. You have a heart attack at Macy's. You're a dead man unless there's some doc who knows CPR sitting there, right, or a nurse. In Illinois, where it started, Zidl started it, the medical doctors and nurses hired lobbyists to prevent it from happening. Wow.

They did not want these stupid fucking firemen doing anything. All right? And let me tell you, the first paramedic course consisted of 253. hours of training. It cost $25. Dr. Schiffel taught it and he licensed you. He was the sole licensing authority in 1972. The city of Chicago didn't have paramedics until two years after that. Two years. Now today, you know, where we have 1,500 shootings, 2,000 gunshot victims, 3,000 gunshot victims. Without the paramedics, It'd be about 2,500 dead every year.

Think about it. I mean, the paramedics saved more lives, man, than you could ever think about. And this became an international thing, just not a national thing. But it all started with a guy named Stanley Zidlo, a little Polish doctor from the west side of Chicago with big nuts, who just would refuse to say no. We got a question from one of our viewers here, Alex. He says, other than the read method, what are some of the read method, what are some of the people? other interrogation techniques and a shout out to our subreddit it's r slash the team house

where are some other interrogation yeah that you find helpful the read method i mean but call it q and a right question and answer let's let's narrow narrow to subject matter where we're going and keep narrowing it down you know you start with where were you were you there what happened what did you see what did you do what happened next who said what to whom um the longer you get people to talk to you the more clarity issues become. And the trick would be in a good investigator or a good interrogator is never take it personal. Don't lose your temper. Don't be angry and be patient.

If you're patient, good things happen. But if you're young, screaming, if you're threatening, you're going to jail, you're getting a death penalty. I mean, that shit does not work. Okay. And you get a guy who's a normal criminal. You get tough with him. He's going to ball up right on top of you. being nice wins.

Not losing your temper wins. You're sitting in Iraq guys and you've got a guy who might be making bombs and he's got a bunch ready to go off. Maybe you're not so nice. Maybe you do it with an M-16 or an M-4 shoved halfway down his throat. But in a homicide investigation

with a dead body that's anywhere, there's no need to get mean or screw up the case early on. Be patient. Gather information and talk to people. like you want to be spoken to. And you'd be surprised how many people will confess to you

because you were nice to him. And they figured out, I'm done. Every guy that's ever confessed to me, ever, knew he was caught, knew the gig was up, and figured, let me try and make myself come out here in the best light possible. And that's the lead method.

What do you think that of the polygraph? In that, I have found it to be a, effective in some cases. I have friends, professionals, PhDs, you know, geniuses. I think it's total bullshit. It's worthless. I will tell you, and John Reed started out as all polygraph examiners, right? A good polygraph examiner is an excellent interrogator, and you're really judging more on people's physical responses and how they're answering questions and how they're deflecting, and that sort of thing. But a good polygraph examiner is invaluable. The, the machine, you're

machine itself is not trustworthy. Right. Okay, you could beat, I could train you to beat a polygraph test. Okay, and I've known polygraph examiners who have been paid high profile politicians to come in and take, show them how to beat a test. Really? Anything you can name? Huh? Anything you can name?

Ted Kennedy was responsible for getting a polygraph thrown out and not, Now, FBI uses them. CIA uses them. Government agencies are exempt, right? But everybody else, like banks and stuff, police departments and fire departments, still polygraph prospective members. They still polygraph them. They still polygraph them.

It's still won't hire them based on a bad polygraph, right? So it's out there, it's being used. A lot of times it's being misused, and polygraphs in interrogations. Good examiners working every day, doing exams every day, right? You just can't hook one. long than expect to do miracles. But I've seen some FBI polygraph guys, some private read polygraph guys that were just unbelievably good in what they do.

But I mean, the point of the polygraph then is really, I mean, the polygraph could not just exist. You could just hook the person up to like, hey, we got this magic box that can tell us if you're lying or not. And the point is to shake them up and scare them. And it's really the interview that is teasing out information. Right. Mr. Science shows up in the room and people get shook, right? And they got the shit needles moving.

Oh, my God. You got the blood pressure cup on and maybe you're feeling your heart's racing. The thing under your ass. Yeah, yeah, right, yeah. Thumbtack in your shoe doesn't work, okay? Fina Barbertoll is very effective against a polygraph test. It's effective for everything I found. Especially for a polygraph test.

Not too much, not too little. Yeah. It kind of melancholes everything out. Well, I was doing a little bit of research because it was alleged that our intelligence community was using an fMRI machine to detect lies as a high-tech lie detector. And that was something that supposedly you can't fake because there's different parts of your brain lighting up as they're asking you questions. But I had a conversation with a psychologist who was a college professor of mine. And she was like, unless you know the pharmaceuticals that would. suppress those parts of your mind when you lie.

Listen, I, here's what I go about people, their ability to tell whether you're lying or not. Usually the guy in the street is as good as any homicide detective is detecting it. Generally, statistically speaking, people are right about half the time whether or not somebody's lying. No matter how many, how good you are, you think you are at it. Just me saying, you know, Murphy looks to me like he's lying right now. And I might guess right, and you are lying.

I mean, I'd be eating a pizza and you figure, yeah, a line motherfucker. That's right. Yeah. I've also read that people do better just listening, like just an audio of a person, that people across the board do better detecting lies than they do by actually watching a person while they're talking. Yeah. But the fact is, they don't detect any better. Now, if you're, and I would tell you, if you're really concentrating on one thing,

either just the visual, right, turn off the volume. and watch how he's responding to questions, and or just the audio. And maybe you hear a hitching their voice. But once again, you're dealing with education, you're dealing with stress, you're dealing with what happened immediately before he got there, what happened in the squad car, and over it. I mean, there's a lot of, there's so many things, variables, that really, you better have something else than you think he's lying.

Now, in a lot of good cases are made because some good detective go, you know, that was bullshit. And I know bullshit when I hear it. I don't know why he's lying or I don't know why he lied about that particular fact that means nothing. But now you're off and running because of it. So intuition is great. But if someone's lying to you, you better be able to go out and prove it's a lie. Other than the fact then, well, I know he's lying because I've been doing this for 30 years.

And I'm a genius. Ask anybody. I've heard this. I've heard it detect his mouth. I've done a thousand homicide cases. How many convictions did you get? How many arrested you actually made? You know, they don't want to answer them questions.

And especially when the figures get crazy, like, I've done 5,000 cases. Okay, let's figure that out. 5,000 murder investigations and a 20-year career. How many of that a week? And pretty soon you start doing the numbers, and you know they're full of shit, right? I mean, it's physically impossible. There's not a chance. You go to the town they worked in.

You know, they had four homicides a year on average. Where do you work a thousand of a man? So these are the sort of thing guys who would say, I could tell when they're lying. Trust me. Believe me. The Texas are the worst fellows, by the way. Texas Rangers, I almost never believe anything come out of their mind. Well, we talked about, like, you helped, I'm sorry.

We talked about you helping get people off and, you know, off of death row and things like that. For the average citizen, what are the biggest mistakes you see? them make. Yeah, I'm going to tell you the big mistake. Anybody ever makes talking to the police, okay? Exercise your Fifth Amendment right. Anything you could say to the police tonight, you could say next week with a lawyer and a court's denographer sitting there.

All right? Nothing you're going to say is going to help you generally. Shut up. Officer, I'd be glad to talk to you with my attorney's presence. Okay? cops are told immediately at any shooting they participate in on duty do not give a statement. In Chicago, they don't have to make a statement for 48 hours generally. Just total horseshit, but guess what?

They're smart because they know their shook up. They just shot some dude. They just lit some guy up. They might know it's a bad shooting. Here come all the internal affairs people and all the other liberal people that make their life difficult and miserable. and so they don't talk to them for two days. And then when they do talk to them, they got a lawyer,

the FOP, representative, et cetera. And I would tell a regular citizen, man, shut, I don't say, you know what's going on. I mean, a lot of times people are going to present something to you, and it makes no sense at all,

mostly because it shouldn't make any sense. But you say something. What's the worst thing people do is talk. Talk without proper representation, or talk without thinking about it. I don't care how smart you are. Police knock on the door. Can I help you?

Yeah, we'd like to talk to you. I'm sorry. Here's my attorney's number. Make an appointment. Be glad to talk to you with him there. Right? That's my advice to people. Do not get sucked into.

You better talk to me right now. You can wind up on the wrong side of this. Well, let's go. All right? I'm on the wrong side of it, but I'm not talking to you. Do you think that people do that? because they

don't want to seem as though like they're resisting or that they have something to hide and they're trying to be helpful or compliant. Listen, the police are really good at getting you to do things you don't want to do,

all right? They know how to put, listen, anybody who's been out in the street for more than six months knows how, listen, think about when the lights come on behind you and you're driving on the street. Man, you go,

your heart starts beating a little quicker. You're checking. We're not going to make sure there aren't any roaches in the ashtray. Where's that damn automatic weapon I got? Is it he shoving in? There's all kinds of stuff going on. And this guy's coming up to the car thinking you're up to something. That's why he pulled you over.

He didn't care about your broken tail light. He thinks, I don't like to look at this dude, right? And so right away, you're at a disadvantage. So don't answer questions because you're going to say something stupid, generally. And if you're smart-ass, that's just going to get you dug further in. Be respectful, be polite, be firm. Don't talk to them. They come to the house.

I'm not talking to you. You're under arrest. Okay, mom, call the lawyer. And go sit your ass in jail and wait for a bond. You could, I mean, a sex case, and we used to grab guys on a sex case, and the first contact with them was the most important one, because if we could give them the degree to talk to us without a lawyer, and they were guilty that they'd usually confess at that first session, right?

because they're rattled and they're shut. And most of them, if they would shut up, you don't have enough evidence to put a case on it. Right? So keep your mouth shut and be very careful before you make any statements to the authorities. And the higher up the food chain you go, FBI, D.A., that sort of thing, the more dangerous it is for you to open your mouth and talk. Okay? Because these guys, usually when the U.S. attorney, FBI shows up at your house, they're either desperate because they've got nothing. or they already got a case, in which case it behooves you to shut the fuck up and not say anything.

Because if you do, it's not going to help you nine times out of ten. They're not there to clear your name or help them out. They're there to get information from you or put a case on your ass. That's the only reason they're knocking on the door. Paul, on that note, a huge topic, something's all over the news. And I wanted to get your take on because you have worked on. these high-profile cases, a lot of murders, a lot of sex crimes is Jeffrey Epstein. What's your take on this, on this, like, just incredibly complicated, you know,

what's just called what it is. It's a criminal conspiracy, at least from my point of view. It's complicated because the prison, listen, I am a prison expert. I have been in more damn prisons than most than anybody you've ever met, okay, across this country, federal, state, county, city jails, etc. Jails and prisons are the most fucked up, badly managed places you've ever been in, okay? The average guard in a jail,

the only reason he's not on the other side of the bars is because he hasn't been caught doing it. All right? Most of them, especially in the South, is some fucking farm boy up the tobacco farm who is clueless about what's going on and their other needs told to lock the doors at this certain time and don't let anyone out that door, okay?

I'm telling you the shit that happens in prisons is just insane, mostly because prisons are run by idiots, all right? And Epstein killing himself. Listen, to murder a guy in prison, it takes a pretty good effort, usually involving gangs. Now, here's what I know about Epstein. Epstein did not like being locked up. Rich guys don't do well in prison because they don't like being locked up because they're rich guys.

And rich guys usually escape punishment, right? So Epstein, I know for a fact, was having lawyer visits every day running about 12 hours. And you know what they were doing? He just didn't want to be in a cell. Couldn't stand being locked up. So he hired two or three law firms to come drag his ass out for an attorney visit every day in the MCC. in New York, I've been in that MCC. The fact that cameras aren't working,

should not surprise anybody. Most of their shit ain't working 90% of the time, all right? It's unfortunate they weren't working. It's unfortunate they had two Mope guards who were part-timers, and they were both sleeping. Big surprise, folks, all right? Most guards on midnight shift are sleeping somewhere in a prison. Not too many of them are awake.

They're supposed to be awake. They're supposed to be watching. If the guy's on suicide watch, every 30 minutes, every hour, it should be a camera on them, nonstop. My understanding they took him off the suicide watch, right? Yeah. At the time that he allegedly killed himself, he was off suicide watch. I think he killed himself.

The dude was not going to do any time. It was bleak. He knew he was going to get a roll a big number on his ass. And he also knew wherever he got to sent to jail was going to be a lot tighter than the MCC. So if he was going to make a move, now is the time to do it. And let's face it, Epstein's a bright guy. He had the best legal talent available, and they probably told him, Jeff, you're fucked. You are gone.

You are not going to see daylight again. And I suspect the guy like Epstein found that unacceptable. Lived the good life. I'm going out on a row, man. What was he? 66, I think. He wasn't a young kid, and he could not do time. This guy could not do time.

So I don't believe he was murder. The murder is a lot more, it's a lot harder than you would think. I mean, if you got a captain of the guards bribed or paid off, and he's working and he's got his boys there, and there's so many things that have to happen, and it's so risky because if one of them dudes get caught, they're going to flip on everybody, right? So, what the...

Epstein going to give Prendrew, Bill Clinton? I mean, if they're doing it in the Bahamas, the United States

really has no jurisdiction. Now, I don't know what's happening in New York City or anywhere else,

but unless Epstein was willing to give up all his pals, listen, I would think by now,

if he was blackmailing people, some tapes with a surface, some computers somewhere,

right, there'd be somebody with the goods. I don't know that, Epstein was blackmailing anybody. I'm wondering how a guy made his fortune to tell you

the truth. I think he made his fortune because he blackmailed a dude that gave all that money. That's what I think too. Right. He went from being a fairly low-key school teacher in Brooklyn to be working at a bank, at a hedge fund, and then he

after just a year there, he opened his own hedge fund that served as exclusively billionaires. That's not a normal career trajectory. You and I could do that. Jack. You and I could open up a hedge fund. You've just got to get a guy. He started up in your garage over a weekend, Paul. We'll get it going. That's right. We could handle that hedge fund shit.

Listen, Epstein was a bright, cagey guy who dodged the bullet, and I think he knew he wasn't dodging this one. It was done. Gig was up. Dershowitz got him the deal of the century down in Florida. I mean, what was he doing? He was living. He bought a house from the governor of New Mexico, the biggest ranch in the state. He got a private plane coming and going. Anybody could do that kind of time, right? But now they were going, oh, dude, no hope, you're done. The evidence they got is overwhelming, man. They're going to roll a big number on your ass.

And, you know, I just think it took the easy way out. You know, fuck that. I'm not going to do this jail shit because jail is not fun for rich people. Bernie Manoff is not having a good time. Do you think this is, like, for your perspective then, is this Epstein case overblown? Is this just another case of like, hey, American justice is all fucked up, and this is just another example of it? I think it's overblown because of who he is, who he hung out with, who his pals were. Everybody loves that.

I love the Clinton memes, you know, about how many dead bodies. The shit's funny. But listen, I don't think Bill and Hillary are smart enough to carry off, have a homicide crew at their disposal and not get caught. all right i mean he got caught getting a blow job okay so killing a bunch of people is probably not uh you know his forte and getting away with it um epstein i just think is one of those dudes man has said hey i'm not going to do the time if he was murdered i'm going to be surprised but you should not be surprised that mopey guards were working that cameras weren't working most of time security shit ain't working in prisons okay uh 90% of the time them cameras are down

And prisons are notoriously underfunded for toys, right? Computers, cameras, maybe the Fed's not so much, but the federal correctional systems like New York, Chicago, what they call the Metropolitan Correctional Centers, those are just high-end jails run by the feds. They're not much better than Rikers or Cook County. In fact, parts of Cook County Jail is much better run than the Metropolitan Correctional Center, right? but the prison guards in there, man guys, I'm telling you, the biggest problem with being in prison is dealing with the Mopee guards, okay?

That GED group that's going to be telling you how to live your life for the rest of you. Hey, hey, hey, hey, this is feeling personal now, Paul. And I'm talking about low GED end, okay? Yeah, not the high end. No, not the high end, man. No, I got it to pull them up.

I got a diploma, all right? The only thing that gets me about Epstein is the will he had to have to kill himself in that way. Because normally if a person kills themselves, like hangs themselves, kicks a stool up, because the human will is so strong to survive, but to kill yourself by leaning. Where his feet weren't dangling like Saddam at the gallows. He had himself sitting down probably. hung himself off the bar, right? I probably did it sitting down,

which is a common way to kill yourself in jail. I do it off doorknows. Oh, really? That tie up something around a doorknob, and let's face it, how many seconds you cut off the airflow, what is it? Three. About nine seconds, you're out, right?

If someone gets you in a rear naked, I mean, you go out pretty quick. Yeah, if you cut off the break, yeah. If they're cut off for nine, 10, 11 seconds, and then your weight finishes you off, unless you're found immediately, right? So it doesn't take long, and it's not a painful way to die.

I mean, it's not like, you know, you're slicing your neck open with a razor blade. As long as a blood choke and not an air choke, because if it's an air choke, then he's going to suffocate. He's going to resist, yeah. Not a tough way to kill yourself, and he's the kind of guy that would have known how to do it. He's smart enough to research before he got his ass locked up,

because before he got locked up, he knew he was getting locked up. He knew what was happening, and it was coming. So I'm not a big, it'd be a lot more fun if they whacked him, right? This would be great entertainment for the next year or two. Sure. But the fact that I don't think he was whacked, I mean, it's just. Well, I mean, I share your opinion.

I think that, you know, he was, that he actually did kill himself. But, I mean, there's still the larger question that, you know, justice was not served for all of these victims. and you know that was never satisfactorily concluded. Well, they're never going to get their day in court, right? And they're never going to get the deals they would have got otherwise. And, you know, listen, man, I did sex stuff. And you're adult women and you're involved in this stuff, 17, 18, 19 years old.

You know, you know what you're signing up for now 10 years later. You're at a victim. Some of them were like fucking 14 years old. I mean, it wasn't like they were all. like, you know, 20-year-old masseuses, quote-unquote. I know. Listen, some of them were absolute victims, okay? But a lot of these people have participated in these sort of activities throughout the years.

I think we're way overboard now. And, you know, Epstein was a bad guy, and he was a piece of shit. And he liked young girls. There's no doubt about who doesn't, right? But most of us go, ah, there's a cutoff page here and better pay attention to it. because my young ass will be sitting in jail. But who gets in most trouble, young GIs, right? Young teachers.

We see this all the time with young teachers. Yeah. Gets out of high school, goes college, four years back to his high school, and he's banging the, you know, the prom queen next year, because he's only four years removed and they still look alike. So it's a big problem we see with young people usually. A guy Epstein's age, he's a piece of shit. He should have went to jail, and he was going to jail for a very, very long time.

So I don't know. I think everyone, I'd be happy. I don't have to testify. I don't have to be deposed. I don't have to put up with all this bullshit. Maybe I want to be. Maybe I want to be in Fox. Because I'll tell you what all these people think in these cases.

I'm going to get a TV show. I'm going to get a reality show. I'm going to be famous. I'm going to have a career. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And that almost never happens. But they're hoping it happens. Another viewer, Alex, he wants to know your opinion.

about truth serum. Phenobarbital, okay? I don't know anyone that ever used it, and I don't know when it's ever used it successfully. I'm sure the CIA's got some drug. They could probably hit you. You should have asked the brother we had on last week. What was his name?

Yeah, Jason. Jason, Jason, get him on the phone. Let's see what Jason. I bet he was doing some truth. Come on some dudes in Afghanistan, okay? They were probably hitting that shit, they hit that pain. I don't know

my understanding my knowledge everything I've ever read it's an iffy proposition at all if it works at all if the Russians have probably had some luck with it there are also some other cases that I've seen you reference

that you've worked on something that you said make the making of a murder or documentary look like child's play one of the cases I've seen you commenting on is it was a police officer's mistress and there's like a blood splatter void inside the room where she was killed. Well, let me tell you about a famous police officer case. I worked.

It's a police sergeant who got shot in the head on patrol one night in the back of the head, basically assassinated. His name was Greg Sears. He's up in McHenry County, Illinois, just north of Chicago about an hour. And they arrested his best friend, a guy named John Crotio. Now, they had no evidence, John Crotio. Corotia killed his best friend, other than the fact that someone thought it was a good idea because John was in the area a few hours beforehand. We got hired by the, they arrested John and charged him with capital murder of a police officer.

And by the way, I mentioned this case because it's the only guy in Illinois who was ever charged with killing a cop and was found not guilty, was my client, John Corotia. We proved unquestionably that the cop's wife killed him for the money. Holy shit. Yeah, and she was a psycho bitch, man. Let me tell you something, okay? She probably killed a couple other husbands that they never proved. But she killed this guy and got a million bucks.

And this hillbilly, let me tell you, man. Her name, she'll only knows rule number one. Whenever you're dealing with a girlfriend or wife that goes by two first names like Norma Jean, look out. All right? Look out. Don't marry that one. All right? Stay far away.

It's like when men have three names, like Lee Harvey Oswald, there's always something. When anyone's using two first names and their general ID, walk away. Stay goodbye. It's never good, okay? John Wayne Gasey, right? John Wayne, I mean, look out at Norma Jean. That's one of my probable causes issues. Uh-oh, they used two first.

We talk about this on the Popo report all the time, especially in Florida. Okay, they use two first names. They're usually a stripper or some other nearer to well. Get a walk away quick. But this chick murdered on the strippers now. We like strippers, okay? But Arturo Gatti was married to a stripper, and she murdered his ass too. But she was Brazilian.

She only used one first name. So what happened with this case where you got this guy sprung that he was falsely accused of killing a police officer? Yeah, he was the police officer's childed best. friend and these guys grew up together they collected guns together and they were kind of too strange dude socially right here's a big fat guy weighed about 370 pounds there's a police sergeant worked for a small town he made 14 bucks an hour i think but in illinois if you're an law enforcement officer first responder and you get killed in a line of duty you're in for about a million bucks and benefits immediately right so uh small town copper like that gets killed somebody gets rich

And believe it, dude was living like a dog on his salary. It was divorced a couple times. And he meets this rock star in Florida at a trailer camp that his parents used to winter at. And they become involved in this love

mad affair, love affair. Via to mail, usually should have seen no letters. These two were writing each other. It was, he almost had to have a psychologist to decipher it for you. They were so stupid. But Norma Jane had told people she was investigated Pete Rose for the government and that she was an

undercover DEA agent and well we started here's what happened the day I get hired I go and knock on her door I want to talk to her because I figured she knows this guy's best friend just got arrested and what do you know right and I knock on her door and she said to me you know sir I got to talk to my lawyer before I talk to you that's what ma'am you're the victim's wife. What do you need a lawyer for? I mean, I was, I was, never have I had a victim's wife say, let me talk to my lawyer, okay?

And she said, well, I just think it's prudent or something like that. And I walked out of it and I'm thinking, that is some strange bizarro shit, right? Now you got my attention. And so I'm driving away and I go to the funeral home. I'm driving past the funeral home that handled the officers. service. And I said, what the hell? I'll go at. Funeral directors

are a great source of information on how family members are acting, what the body look like. A lot of times, police or authorities will lie about what that body look like or injuries. So I always like to talk to the funeral director who are great gossips, by the way. They love to talk because

nobody talks to him. So I'm knocking the door and the guy comes down and I said, hi, you know, he knew, this is a small town. Everybody knows everybody, right? and so he knew the cop he knew my client he grew up with they all went to high school together so i said what do you think about the white he goes let me tell you about that wife oh yeah he said here's what happened with this wife he goes i got gregg's body and it was in the body bag he said he was still in his uh he was naked and he was in a hundred different

pieces and it was just horrible he said she walked from her house the funeral home and says i want to see my husband's body. And he says, ma'am, not a good idea. He's not ready. And she goes, I used to be a police officer. I want to see his body right now. Line number one of thousands that she told eventually. She's never a cop. Part-time deputy in Florida. I'll tell you about that in a minute. But so he goes and talks to his son and says, hey, this one wants to see his body, man. He's a hot mess. I'm afraid she's going to fall out and have a hard to. He said, let's type of release and make her sign it, that it's against our advice. So they type it, she signs it, and she said, let's see the body right now.

So she walks in there and he's laying on the table. He unzips the bag. And she bends over, Jack, and she gets right up on his head, where we got shot in the back of the head. And she walks around the entire table around his head, examining the injury, right? I mean, she's like six inches. and the field director is like freaking out and she gets done looking at them, she stands up and she goes,

okay, I'm done, you want to give me a ride home now? They didn't even know what to say, right? And I'm like, that's a first for me. I've never heard of that one. Well, I'm going to tell you what she was doing. She had this whole thing about murder and killing and guns and shooting, and she wanted to see what her handiwork looked like in the daylight. Wow, God damn.

Fucking black widow. Oh, let me tell you, man, I'm on this bitch. Now, here's the fascinating thing. The night he gets murdered, she's up at this truck stop where they're supposed to meet. She's going to Florida because she has a, quote, golden pacemaker that only the doctor that put it in in Florida can examine. So he gets shot about three blocks from this truck stop, okay? And all the cops wind up up at the truck stop, and she's there. And they're talking to her.

And one of them looks at her car, and it's packed to the gills, TVs, rifles, shotguns. By the way, she's got no permits or anything of any nature. And she's just going down to Florida for a doctor visit. It's an emergency that has to do with her pacemaker, but she's got everything of value from their house packed in that car. Now, the cops don't find that too suspicious. but a state police guy who knew this guy real well and his wife came up there to help with her. I interviewed a wife later and the wife said to me, five minutes there, man, I thought that bitch killed her husband.

I don't know why, but that's just the feeling I got. And she knew her, right? So the cops look at the gun, the same of the sniff test, and they kicked her loose. Now, he course gets killed so she don't go to Florida. The medical emergency must have dissipated. By the way, I found her medical doctor in Florida. She had never called to make an appointment, never reported a problem. This is all bullshit.

She made up. But she's getting away with because no one wants to blame the widow, right? And so this is going on. I mean, there was other things that while it went on with her. By the way, she was in Fort Lauderdale, and she managed to get herself, she's living in a double wide with a husband who had cancered and kind of died mysteriously. first husband she had got run over in the middle of a night by a car on a dark road. Second one died of cancer, but no one ever saw the body or did an autopsy.

And then the third one was the cop. So when she lived in Florida, she was like a traffic aid for the Fort Lauderdale Sheriff's Department, right? Which means parades or something. They'd give her a little badge and a baton. Well, she's married to the third guy who's got cancer. and one day she don't come home, so he calls the sheriff's office and says, hey, my wife didn't come home,

I don't know where she's at. Well, they start looking for it. They can't find her nowhere, right? Three days later, she comes walking out of the woods and walks into the police station. By the way, perfectly done hair, pressed jeans and a shirt. I was kidnapped by two black guys,

who took me a gunpoint, took me out in the woods, and raped me. And I escaped. So the Fort Lauderdale guys, who were very nice in the beginning, said, listen, this guy's our polygraph examiner. Norma Jean, we'd like for you. By the way, they found her car with a bullet hole in the door and her blood on the inside of the door, right? Or maybe the bullet hole was through the wind.

shield. She shot it. She shot the shit and cut herself. But they polygraph her and the polygraph guy says, bitch was not kidnapped, was not raped. This is all bullshit. The old two black guys defense. Yeah. The old two black guys, right?

So, and by the way, when the husband reported her missing, they're looking at him like he did something, right? Yeah, it was pretty funny because he's like, dude, really, I have nothing to do with this. I don't know where she's at or what she's doing. So fortunately, Florida has the best

sunshine laws in the country. And everything the police write up is a public record almost as soon as it's real. Yeah, yeah. We can get all this information on her. And by the way, we bring her in the court.

We call her as a witness. She took the Fifth Amendment on the witness stand. And the jury was out about a hot hour before they found our guy not guilty. Wow. But that was a big high profile case.

It probably happened about 15 years ago now. And it was, let me tell you, that family spent, for $500,000 on the defense. That's how much work we did on that case. Right?

I mean, he was looking at death penalty, his best friend. That's insane, man. I guess the next thing I wanted to ask you was, are there any cases

that are unresolved that you never got to the bottom to? I mean, I know as a journalist, there's certain stories that, like, I kind of got to the bottom of it, but not really.

There's just those certain ones that, like, keep me up at night. And I was wondering if you have, had any that kind of are still riding on your shoulders years later i'll tell you jack here's the problem i i get a lot of calls from people uh my son the police said my son committed suicide my daughter committed suicide i think she was murdered why do you think that we have a conversation i'll go okay well we could look into it um i i get a lot of cases like this right so i i've got one right now

this young police dispatcher allegedly shot herself, killed herself, shot herself in the head. Her cop boyfriend was present when it happened. I'm 90% sure he murdered her, but the cops have called it as suicide. This is the one I was referencing. Maybe. A girl named Samantha Herrer. And in the blood splatter, there's like a void as if someone was standing in the room. Well, here's the problem.

She shoots herself in a head with a weapon she owned. Allegedly she's naked. Number one, women almost never commit suicide naked unless they're in a bathtub, right? It's a drug overdose. But almost no woman will display her body for public. They just don't do it. It makes sense. Very, very rare if they did.

He says he was on the other side of the door when she shot herself. It's a closed door. No way for him. You know, he breaks the door down after he shoots herself. They ask him to try CPR and he goes, I don't know if they are, but I can see brain matter. She's dead. Now, this is a guy who supposedly mad in love with her.

Now, he's very clear. She's on the other side of a locked door when she shoots herself. Well, unbeknownst to everybody until finally we start, we file lawsuits and everything else, state police got hold of his clothes. His hands were positive for a gunshot residue. Her hands were negative. Now, she shoots herself and there's no negative GSR test. They got his pants and shirt.

There's blood splatter on him. Now, unless the blood jumped through a closed door, there's no explanation for it. And there's other issues I can't talk about right yet because they don't know about them. But basically, they hooked this case up to make it look like a suicide. And it just didn't happen. Now, herein lies the problem in these sort of cases. I have to convince a prosecutor to move forward with this case. They're very reluctant to do that.

They don't want to charge a police officer for a murder. It's bad business. In their mind, it might be a weak case, although they've tried to hook it up so far. So we're in federal courts suing them. I have a judge who basically has indicated he believes this is all bullshit and he wants to see everything. So now we'll get into the phones, the computers,

and all the other stuff that people have a tendency to mess with when they think they're really smart. But I'm going to, I'm going to, we can prove this guy committed this murder. There's a little doubt in my mind. And, but it's, it's really tough because, A, you need a lot of money. You know, I need forensic experts. I need blood experts. I need crime scene experts, all right?

Forensic psychiatrists. I mean, we need a couple hundred thousand dollars in experts to go over to computers, the telephones, et cetera. Everything they did, we got to do 10 times better, basically. And they didn't really do much, except the nine months to decide, took them nine months to decide it was a suicide. You know? I mean, I get a lot of cases like this. And I got a case.

Even though the boyfriend has residue on his hands, but the woman who allegedly committed suicide doesn't. And the prosecutor still won't reopen the case? Well, they've all determined. They had a big meeting and said this was a suicide. And so it's just like, they look at you and it's like, two plus two is five, just accept it. Exactly. Exactly.

By the way, and I mentioned, this guy was accused of a rape on a police sergeant's niece about a year before it is, a year before that. You like the big guy had the death in a bar

and they put him on super secret triple probation. Basically, the police department said, you can't drink for a year or be in bars. That was their punishment for this. So this guy, once again, we see the behavior escalating, right? And this relationship, young girl 10 years is junior, controlling, manipulative, just all kinds of the shit you see

with guys who are, you know, abusing a mate and the behavior is escalating and getting worse, right? And you have a young girl who thinks she can handle him and manage it, but in fact, she's weighing over her head. And it's a tragic, tragic case. So when you say you're suing them, You're not talking about like a civil suit for money. Is it a different type of suit than what we think? Suing him is police department.

The police agencies involved. This is a federal civil rights case, right? And we're alleging there's a conspiracy amongst the investigating agencies that prevent this guy from getting charged with murder. Now, I'm going to prove it's a murder case. But here's the thing. We may win $20 million in a federal lawsuit. But if that state's attorney,

that county doesn't want to prosecute, we can't make them. Tough shit. Yeah. No? And on the other hand, and I'll give you another example, I had a young girl who hung herself and her parents' vacant home that was up for sale about a year and a half ago, vivacious, 19-year-old kid, beautiful, hung herself on a door. Parents were convinced, the mother and stepfather were convinced that this girl was

murdered by her boyfriend. They call me up. and give me a lot of good reasons why that might be the case. I agree to take the case. I'm working for about a month and a half. Absolutely clear this kid killed herself, okay? Boyfriend had nothing to do with it. This was all mommy issues.

And you've got to love this. This happens to me a lot. This kid wrote an eight-page suicide note. The police had it. The police weren't talking to me because parents wouldn't let the police talk to me or any, we release them. And the parents didn't tell me about the, No. So they're trying to get me to put a murder case on her boyfriend.

And everything I'm finding out is bullshit. Finally, I have a talk with one of the detectives. And he says, hey, come here. And he opens up his laptop. He says, read this. I'm reading it. It's her, right? Handwritten note on his life.

And I go, when did you get this? He goes, it was the scene. I've had it since day one. And I'm like, well, I didn't think she killed herself. But now I'm pretty certain she didn't, that she did kill herself. And, but the parents really, and they spent a lot of money, man. They tried to tune it up so I would put a case on the boyfriend, right? And just none of it was lining up.

And the more people I talked to, the more it became apparent to me. This kid was going to commit suicide, had planned on committing suicide, and had a plan on how she was going to do it so it embarrassed her mother the most, right? Wow. And she did. Yeah. And this was tragic because this kid was so, she was eminently savable if an adult would have stepped in and didn't the right thing by her, you know? Right.

Right. But crazy clients, you can never count on them. And I just say that as a lesson, you know, you just can't have preconceived notions about things. How they go, man. We go where the evidence leads us. That's all we do. And I know, I'm not a private investigator anymore. I'm a criminal profiler and I'm a consultant.

I put together teams of experts and I use the best medical examiners, forensic psychiatrists, the best crime scene guys. I just got a team of experts and we staffed this thing and we examine it from every position and we come out with some kind of solution and what happened. And generally I've found that that's the best way to do these things. That police generally don't do it, don't have time for it, don't have the budget for it.

And in its high profile case, they need to do it, but often they don't. Have you had cases where you really wanted the person to be innocent and through your research you found they weren't? Or you really wanted them to be guilty and through your research you found they weren't? I've had cases where I got fooled. I had one particular case at a gang shooting in Chicago. Guy's sister gets insulted by a gangbanger. sister goes home tells her brother gangbanger gets killed about 20 minutes later brother leaves town, is down in Louisiana for about 10 years, gets caught,

and we get hired when he gets caught. And the dudes tell me, I did not shoot this dude, man. I didn't commit this murder, didn't do it. And he interviewed well, and we're doing his defense work. And the only evidence was the patrolman that picked him up that day of the event said that he confessed to him in the back of the squad car. He's in the squad car and the cop said to him along the lines of, hey, if that dude had done that to my sister, I'd have shot him to.

And the dude said, well, you know, you do what you got to do or something along those lines. So come down in this case because it was so old, no witness is satisfied. We figured we're going to win this case, get it not guilty, right? And me and a lawyer are pretty convinced he didn't do it. And so the old patrolman comes up, big fat guy, had been on a job. like 40 years and he goes, yeah, the dude was in the back of my car, man. And I just, he said, I said, hey, if that was my sister, I'd have probably shot the dude. And he said, yeah, I did shoot his ass. And I said something along the line, good for you. Right. So he testifies in a lawyer

on with just kind of destroys his whole patrolman. You want us to believe that. Bob, blah, bah. Even the jury's rolling her eyes. Like, yeah, sure he confessed to you, right? So jury comes back, not guilty. Our guy walks out the door. We're in the whole. We're in the hallway and I said to him I says I gotta tell you man that that patrolman when he testified I kind of believed him and the dude looked at me and he goes that's exactly what happened Paul I told the motherfucker great are you kidding me right so to my knowledge that's the only guy we ever got off on a murder case that actually pulled the trigger right I mean I had me fooled and but when I heard the cop testify I'm like

what's this old patrol and give a shit right? He's he don't care about this dude he ain't gonna hang his ass out or any I thought he did really well and the jury come and said I'm not guilty right because it's this kind of height of the police misconduct stuff and we walked out of that hallway man I was like fuck me I couldn't believe it right I'm like you got me on this one

but but yeah and I've had some cases Dave where we've lost I thought we should have won. A dude goes off to jail for a long time. There's some tough ones. You know, I don't lost too many. And the fact is, if we go to trial, it's usually well-funded. We've done a lot of work on it. And the only reason we go to trial is the state's being so unreasonable.

We don't have a choice. Right. And where the guy is so innocent, we got to win the case. But I hate those cases. It really, you don't want the stakes to be. The dude didn't do it, and he's looking at life for 60 years or something like that because that's scary, man. You've got to win that case, and you've got to win it under the rules. Because if you don't, you get locked up doing what I do.

They will try and lock your ass up if you cross that line. Paul, you got a couple minutes to answer some viewer questions? Glad to. Friendly ones, especially. But I'll answer the mean-spirited ones. Okay. Let's see. One guy's asking,

are you familiar with Dan Holtz Claus case? Dan was a personal friend of mine and is doing 200 years in prison as a former cop convicted for sexual assault. I'm unsure of his guilt, as are many. This is a case out of Oklahoma, and this patrolman, I believe, what was Dan's ethnic background?

He's Hawaiian or Filipino or something. Big guy, big tough copper. A bunch of black chicks accused him of rape, like 15 or 20, right? I know some people who are in that case is bullshit. I think Dan's innocent. I think they lied. They created a case on him, and he was wrongfully convicted of all these rapes.

I don't think it ever happened. I think it's total bullshit, and I think at some point it'll be exonerated. God damn. Why do you think, I mean, that can't be common for like 20 people to collude with one another. Listen, man, they went out and recruited these people to testify against them. For whatever reason, as police department put a case on this patrolman who had no background of avarant behavior or pulling shit like this. And it was just a horrendous miscarriage of justice. There's a lot of people involved in this case.

Now, a lot of good, excuse me, lawyers, investigators who've been working this case for a while now. Dan's coming out of jail. It's going to take a few years longer, but the case is falling apart bit by bit. Guys, if you have any questions, get them in now. Yeah. Thanks, DJ. We didn't thank you. I don't think so.

But thank you very much. Actually, that's a high-profile hot case. Someone else here is asking about narco analysis, but I'm not sure the context. We'll move on to something else. Does Paul have an opinion on the polygrapher? Doug Williams, if he is even aware of the guy? Doug Williams, the football coach, football player? He says he's a polygrapher.

No, I don't know Doug Williams. Okay. I knew, yeah. Do you think the police should be allowed to interrogate kids without their parents present? Here's what I think, depending on the age. If it's a kid under 13, no. Absolutely not. If a kid who's disabled, no.

I would say any kid, any juvenile being interrogated, I think the parents at the very least should be able to observe the interview, you know, via video and audio. It's generally a bad idea when kids are interrogated by the police without the... I get nervous when the parents aren't notified and they snatch the kid out of school and they do an interrogation. it that they usually that usually not a good policy or a good idea Claudia wants to know what do you think of Rodney Reed's chance of getting cleared I've heard a lot of stuff about Rodney Reed I haven't looked at the case personally he's a black guy in Texas who's on death row came real close to getting executed he's got he's got extremely strong public support and some some famous people behind

on wanting him to be exonerated or get a new trial. So personally, I don't have any knowledge. I really read about the case other than the general stuff. He's really, right now, he's probably the most famous guy in death row. He's got a lot of support for him to get a new trial and or be exonerated. But Texas man is different. They really don't give a shit about public support, right? and that Supreme Court in Texas is loaded with insurance attorneys,

insurance company lawyers who got black little hearts, could care the last couple. Addie goes, dude, you're cook. See you later. They kill them fast and quick in Texas, man. Not a good place to be on death roll. Andrew asks if you have any thoughts on the Jesse Smollett case. He was the actor, right?

Yeah. And it was in Chicago, wasn't it? Yeah. He staged that. Well, Andrew, you should listen to all the Poe Poe report because Jesse has made me a lot of money on that radio show.

We talked about him about 30 times, okay? Jesse's full of shit. He made it up. He was never abducted. He was never assaulted. It was two black guy, Nigerians, who were about his black at night, not two white guys with magna hats.

He paid the black guys with a $2,500 personal check. All right? He conspired with them. And he got caught. And now, Jesse has got a problem with a guy named Dan Webb, who's been appointed as a special prosecutor in this case, and they've reopened it.

So Jesse might get his ass charged with all manner of felonies now, and he might get some serious jail time. So Jesse, he's got a big problem. He made it up. It's bullshit. It never happened. The tapes of the cops when they first get to his apartment are hilarious. because you could tell these detectives,

they knew this was bullshit, right? Well, let me get this straight, dude. Rich guy, millionaire, a Hollywood actor, you're down on lower whack or drive, which is not the safest of places to get a subway sandwich at 2 o'clock in the morning. That's your story? Really? Right away, they're smelling bullshit.

And he's still got the little string around his neck or something. And the cop right? He kept that on, yeah. I want to pick the string off, man. You know. He got what he asked for, right? He went out. He's holding press conferences. I'm a victim. I'm this, I'm that. Don't you dare. Question me well. Chicago Police Department spent more time on that case than they did any murder in the last 10 years. I'm not kidding. I think they had like 60 detectives assigned to that thing full time for a while. Oh yeah. Yeah, the mayor was not going to let Jesse Small at whole press conference saying how they were prejudiced.

of this and screwing him because he was a black man, right? So it was, it's great entertainment. And by the way, I highly recommend listening to Dave Chappelle to talk about Judge Smollett. It is the funniest five minutes of comedy I've heard in the last 10 years. Outside of just him and the bullshit, do you think that how his case was handled, how he, like, is that indicative of sort of the Chicago bureaucracy? the law enforcement there.

Oh, man. You're talking about Jesse Smollett? Yeah. Like, hey, bro. I mean, nobody gets that kind of treatment unless you're the mayor, right? They were so nervous about this Hollywood asshole out there, spouting his mouth and accusing him of being racist and stuff.

They just decided to go full court press the other direction, right? But the FBI got involved. The postal inspectors got it. I mean, there must have been 100, investigators and five or six different agencies looking at this horseshit. It was crazy. If they put that kind of effort and they run a mill homicide, they'd have 100% conviction rate. I'm not kidding you, right? This goofy

Hollywood actor whose career is kind of in the shitter and he's trying to generate some pop and some social media. He did. He did. And now he's going to do something he don't want, right? Because the black community turned on his ass. and they even laughing at them. It was silly Hollywood stuff that we never really get in Chicago, right? Because we just get run-a-mill

homicidal man. You guys need stricter gun laws. Yeah, okay. That'll work. Yeah, we need to do something like that, Dave, to get us off the ground, like a couple Antifa commandos attack us on the street corner down here.

I'm too old, man. I'll fold. You can go to, Yeah, you haven't pulled their punch, you know. Get some convincing actors. I looks like that's all the questions. Actually, Alex wants to know any favorite holiday stories from our time in the military. Do you have any, Paul?

I'll tell you, man, every day was a holiday in the military, okay? I can't believe they paid me to do that shit, Jack. And I was a 19-year-old buck sergeant. My ass was in butter every day, man. I mean, Living on the teeth of the government. Jack, all I want to do was kill communists. They wouldn't let me do that.

Me neither. Listen, it was so much far. The people I met in the military, still, some of my best friends are guys I was with 35, 40 years ago. The sergeants I had, Jack, I had a former crazy grain beret sergeant, who was my platoon sergeant when I was, well, I'm brabble. And his last, his name was Tracy.

and I did about five tours in Nam, right? My job on the way in every morning was to go by the bachelor's quarters and wake his drunk ass up. He had a bed, a Kingside bed, that took up the whole room, literally, right? He didn't have no room in his bed, a big water bed. And he had like this bar from Thailand he imported from when he was in Nam or something that took up the other half of the room. And I would wake him up.

I had a key, and he would roll over, and there was a half gallon of vodka on the floor, and he would take it and swill it about five shots, and he'd go, all right, let's go through our three miles or whatever. He'd be in the NCO club every night by five. He'd pound a fifth of vodka, and I'll never forget it, diet, Dr. Pepper, and vodka. Damn. He'd pounded about 30 of them every night, right? And he was an old snake eater man, and he was just riding out his 20.

in the old leg unit, but he was like, young sergeant, you're in charge today because I got a bad headache. I'll see you at the club later. But my favorite Green Beret Sergeant, other than the assholes and bad tolls who tortured us and beat us at the bed. Emel says,

Paul hasn't changed since the Army. He served at Leavenworth and chased down an escapee, and then he deleted his comment. Good duty at Levinworth. We were the MP unit there where I get to learn how inmates and basically guards be banging out in the woods every night. I can't tell you have any female guards we locked up who smuggled out of the farm, right? And if you're in the Army and you get sent to Leavenworth, they got about 15 degrees of custody. It's a great job because if you're a Leibworth, you don't have to do the shit jobs like garbage collection or cutting grass.

The inmates do all that stuff, right? So there's a lot of inmates running around, and they do all the dog work that soldiers hate doing. Right. And it's a pretty good gig, but that's where, my God, they caught more chicks screwing inmates out in the woods on midnight shift than any other activity. I've heard this story before, actually, from a warrant officer I served with who served as a corrections officer than his break in service. about some sort of, yeah, it was female prison guards who are prostituting themselves to the prisoners. It happens more than you would ever guess, man,

even in the federal facilities. And let me tell you, get an inmate, man, who's a good-looking dude, and he's got game, and he's got nothing to do all day but work that game, right? Right. And you get one of these farm girls, right, one of the 19-year-old Iowa girls,

who's a corrections officer all of a sudden, never lived more than five miles from her front door, and now she's at Lovenworth with Prince Charming, and he'd talk them right out of them panties every time, man. I'm telling you, it was, like, hilarious. I mean, some weeks we get, like, one every three, four days, and it was just, just bizarre a lamb. That's a story as oldest time.

It's really almost unfair, I mean, it makes it seem like they're not responsible for their own choices, but it's almost unfair to these young women to put them that situation where they're exposed to these guys like nonstop i i'm going to tell you something dave i have seen a lot of i've had a i've had a couple female friends who worked in corrections who have fallen in love with inmates yeah and i mean smart educated phd people right and shocked me i mean one was a a good friend of mine because i had locked up her stepdaughters stepdaddy who was a naval guy and was molesting this kid for years and that's how we got to know each

other. And she worked at the stateville penitentiary right outside Chicago, one of the biggest prisons in the country. Fell in love with an inmate, man, lost her job. It just, just crazy. I mean, love knows no bounds. Right. It's what the heart wants, right? And even smart women get fooled by these guys a lot. Paul, this has been like a sweeping wide range, probably controversial interview. I mean, some people are probably going to be upset by the things you have to say. I think, like you said, you've got to chase the evidence where it leads you. I'll just finish off with this last question from Andrew. If you have any final thoughts on prosecutorial misconduct.

Right? Written books about the damn subject, Jack. Yeah. So you do have thoughts. Prosecutors, when they, prosecutional misconduct is when they're breaking the laws, they're breaking the rules, they're withholding evidence, they're lying about what they have. They know witnesses are lying and they're putting them on.

This is a big, big problem, especially in high profile cases, right? And sometimes prosecutors feel the heat of winning at all cost, and they will lie, they will cheat, they will manufacture evidence, and we catch them 15, 20 years later. You know, the biggest lie we always deal with is when they've interviewed people who have cleared our guy, the defendant and said, listen, that dude didn't do it. How do I, how do you know? Because I saw the guy that did it. And then they buried that evidence, right? They won't write the report. Because they have their narrative that's in place and they don't want to change it. We got our narrative and that doesn't go with our narrative. So the defense is never going to see it. So unless you find this dude independent of them

and he decides to tell you the truth, this is the biggest problem we see in those sort of cases. prosecutional and police misconduct are big issues in wrongful convictions. Big issues. The biggest one is snitch testimony, informants, jailhouse snitches. That's the absolute worst evidence. The second biggest problem is prosecutional and police misconduct. Do you think defense attorneys get a bad rap? Well, no, because most of them are incompetent pieces of shit.

A lot of them don't do their job. Take money. Don't do the case. Don't hire a good investigator. Take the don't. A hard court. Let me tell you something. You get a good public defender. It's worth his weight and goal. It'll kill himself trying to prove your innocence, right? And they do it for little or no money. But I've seen slick, I've seen lawyers take fees of $10 million and fuck clients. Wow. Fuck them. Took the money and went along with the government and let their clients sacrifice their clients.

Okay. So nothing surprises me anymore. I'm a, give me a hardworking public defender out of school four or five years. And it kicked the shit out of a good lawyer sometimes, right? But I've worked for brilliant defense lawyers who give it they're all. And I've seen some dogs, man. I mean, guys who are great businessmen, know how to make money, but not very good. good at advocating for their clients.

You know, it's a, it's a tough job, it's a hard job, it's not a fun job. And to be successful, here's the thing with private attorneys. A lot of them are great business people or a lot of them are good lawyers. They're very seldom both. And each thing drives the other, right? You can't make the big money unless you're a really good lawyer, right? Unless you're great at advertising and commercials and social media, et cetera. right but if you get in trouble

the big decision you make is what lawyer you're going to hire and spend your money on because most people can't afford to make a mistake especially when numbers are being tossed about like I need 50,000 I need 100,000 I need a half million maybe you can come up with that kind of Trump but it better be with the right guy or you're fucked because you're not going to get a second chance and most of the work I've gotten in the last 15, 20 years

are from people who have been screwed by defense-lawful lawyers who didn't know what they were doing, didn't know how to run a murder case, was afraid of the prosecutor, was bullied by the cops, didn't hire an investigator, didn't hire experts that they needed to hire, or kept all the money for themselves. And consequently, I've worked for other lawyers who are the exact opposite of that. It's all about the client and do anything to get them a fair and equitable outcome. But there's a lot more bad apples out there than there are good ones. In Chicago, there's not five lawyers I'd hire to do a murder case. And we got we got 35,000 lawyers around the city. And how many murders a year? 100,000 in the state, right? So be

careful who you hire and who's your attorney because you know, that's another thing, man, you got to find the right person at the right time in their career and they got the right amount of hunger, especially if you're innocent, right? Because a lot of them are driven by money and you know, you get to a certain point and go, hey, dude, you're out of money. I'm stuck in this guy. now, but I'm not going to kill myself for the next year because we burned up whatever you owed me and I'm stuck, but you better find someone who's really going to treat you like, you know, you're their son or daughter. And it's very important that you don't go down for especially something you didn't do. It's that's part. People don't even think about that part, right, when they get in trouble or when you're suing somebody, you know, say medical malpractice case, better hire the right guy, not the guy with the best commercial.

You better find someone who's ringing up that hospital on a regular basis or them doctors who have, you know, I mean, more people get killed by medical malpractice than murder in this country every year. Unequivocally. A lot more bad doctors out there than there are murderers, and they get away with it for the most part. So you've got to be really careful in this lawyer thing and who you hire. You better find you just can't hire the first name that pops up or the first name your first cousin recommends because he defended his bookie and won a K.A. case, right? You better do research. You better treat it like it's the most important decision you're going to make and make sure it's the right person at the right time. Or are you going to go to prison? Paul, this has been awesome, man. Thank you so much for coming on. I want to have

you on again sometime to talk some more about these topics. I'm going to talk about, you know, all these guys you killed over there and hung up off bridges and shit and, you know. I didn't do any of that shit. But, no, again, thank you so much for coming on. I just want to plug again your radio show, the Po Po Po Report, and also you can find it on the, there's like a podcast online afterwards, right? WLSAM.com. Just punch in the Poe Poe Report. You find them all.

And you were a co-host, Lupe, he's a cop. Lupe Aguier is a proud member to Chicago Police Department, works the 3-11 ship on the, a neighborhood he grew up in. That's awesome. He's also a licensed attorney. Oh, wow. My partner. He's a licensed attorney.

A good guy, really good police officer. You're still affiliated with the forensics criminologist, correct? Yes. Okay. And so, real quick, if people are interested in pursuing this. We have a website, guys, International Association of Criminologists.

I would urge you to look at it. If you'd like to join, we'd love to have you as a member. And it's a phenomenal organization that I'm the newly elected president of. Congratulations. Thanks, guys. Anything else? I think that I think we pretty much call it a wrap for tonight. Thank you, Dave, for having me.

I wish we had more gas can and fine-ass soldier stories. We'll get more. I'll announce it now. Next episode, episode 22, is going to be January 30th, and we're going to have in studio a, this is very interesting. I know him because we went to the same high school, but at different times. He served his second Ranger Battalion and then the Army marksmanship unit. And he is one of the world's experts in ballistics and long-range marksmanship.

Has been in competitions all over the world. The top, you know, tier one guys bring him in to train their snipers. His name is Emel Praslich. And I actually knew his mother because she golfed on the golf course that I was a professional weed whacker on in high school. And that's how I first met him. But then I ended up being in sniper section and Sergeant Jared Van Allis was my platoon sergeant, who is Emel's best friend before Van Allis was unfortunately killed in Afghanistan

in 2010, I believe. So we're going to have Emel here in the first friend. studio to talk about all that and a lot more. And I think you'll get a kick out of it, too, Paul. Your student sergeant, Jared Van Al got killed. He was, I've read about him, and I think stuff you wrote about him, but I got to tell you, he should have been the recruiting poster for Rangers or Special Forces. The way that dude looked at, I had, man.

That just leadership just jumped off that dude. Dude, I mean, Van Alist was, I had such an interesting relationship with him. But you're absolutely not wrong. He was such a perfectionist. And that was, I think, part of what drove me nuts. As you said, a good leader, and he just pushed you so hard to be perfect, which I didn't always appreciate it as a young man. But he absolutely was a perfectionist.

He wanted to do everything the right way. Yeah. Yeah, he looked like a handful, man. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's accurate. Yeah. Just like y'all. We know you guys, Jack.

We know you're a handful, right? I was a handful in a different way. Yes, I know, Jack, in a good way. That's the story, and we're sticking to it. No, but VA, VA was a good guy. He was looking over my shoulder, looking out for me, even when I was too dumb to realize it. And I'll get Emil, hopefully, to tell and recall a few of his stories

and his experiences with him. I think it'll be great. Hey, Jack, I want you to get Comstock, and Jim West on. I want to redo the fight they had. Oh, my God. I might be able to get Comstock on sometime when he comes through the city.

They're kind of old dudes now, man. Be a good old dude fight now. Dale will never grow old. Dale will die in a perfect physique, like looking like A-packed. Like time stopped. He never, I've been following. following him forever, man.

He's a funny guy. By the way, great book you should read, Jack if you haven't. Yellow Green Beret, written by a Green Beret officer who was a West Point. Yeah, yeah, Gene. Yeah, I read his book. I love this shit. Oh, it's fucking hilarious. Yeah.

Gene went on and founded a private security company called, Oh, shit. What's the name of it? It's like Black Panda. or something like that. And when I was in the Philippines in 2017, all the Filipino Special Operations guys were like, they all had stories about Gene.

It was really funny. Great book, Yellow, Green. Oh, yeah. I love this. Yeah, it is a great book. All right, guys, thanks for having me. Love being here. Jack.

Anytime, Paul. We'll have to do it again, man. Thanks for coming up and sharing the stories. Dave, thanks a lot, man. I hope we don't get sued, women groups. They'll be out in front of the Brownstone in Brooklyn tomorrow.

It'll be good press for your radio show in our live stream, honestly. Listen, don't be mad at me. That's all right. Okay, I love the girls. I'm a big defender of the girls. Take care, guys. Take care. Thanks, Paul. All right. All right. That is a wrap on our end. Merry Christmas, everybody out there. Yeah. You know anything, Dave?

No. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for watching this. If you didn't join us, please remember to subscribe to our channel. hit that little bell notification. And if you feel like you have an extra buck or two a month, send us a little Patreon. As you can see, our tech is advancing. Two knuckle drivers. We're getting there. We get there.

But thanks, guys. We really appreciate your support. Yeah. Yeah. Merry Christmas. Happy Hanukkah. Happy holidays. Happy Kwanza.

Happy Kwanza. And yeah, that's it. Episode 22 coming up on the 30th. So we'll see you. guys then, all right?