The Team House - The Team House Ep. 8 with Clint Sporman

Episode Date: September 27, 2019

Clint Sporman in our in-studio guest discussing old school fighting techniques from WW2 and beyond, answers questions, demonstrates some OSS and Defendu fighting styles, and we get to play with blackjacks, sap gloves, and also get deep into the history of Fairbairn and Applegate. Check out Clint here: http://www.gutterfighting.org/ Please consider supporting our stream on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/MurphysLawstreamBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

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What? We are live screaming. Oh, my gosh. I'm so embarrassed. Hey, guys. Sorry, we've had some technical difficulties. Maybe we already said that on my show. I don't know what's live was not.

We've actually started this a couple of times and got a couple minutes in each time. Yeah. It's my fault. I was messing around changing IP addresses, trying to work out some things so that people can call in. We can interview them on Skype and I'm still working on that. So as I said, I'm sorry. We don't have a tech guy. We have Jack.

And Jack doesn't know what the hell he's doing. Jack Noosh. I'm just kind of like feeling through the darkness. But anyway, I want to introduce our guest. Clint. Clint Spornman, everybody. And we'll get into Clint's history and, you know, all of his dealings and nefarious goings-ons very quickly. But I want to take a real quick second to plug a charity event and a raffle.

It's a charity raffle. So I'm in a motorcycle club that's all former Rangers called Killer Man's Sons. And we are doing a benefit this weekend for the, I'm sorry, we're doing a benefit this weekend for the Fall on Ranger Fund. So this fund helps, you know, Rangers and who get injured or the families if, you know, if they pass. and it's a raffle, I believe that it is $10 a ticket or $6 for $50. Now here's what you can win in this raffle. That's what you want to know, right? What's in it for me?

First of all, let me tell you, there are only 500 tickets. Chances of winning something. You know, it's better than a lottery. If you play the lottery, you should do this. If you don't play the lottery, you should do this. So here are the possible prizes. You get a hand forged knife. You can get a, what are we doing?

A 300 blackout carbine pistol. A pistol? Yes. Oh, is it like an AR that has the buttstock removed? It's a 300. It's technically a pistol. It's a 300 blackout carbine pistol. If you are in an area where you cannot have a weapon.

you can a pistol you can you can definitely note that on your entry or on your entry and then if you don't note it and you win it and you can't have it let us know and we'll do something

don't look at me well I can't I can't really speak for I can't really speak for the leadership of the club and what they'll do but they're not going to leave you hang So that's one of the prizes. A hand-forged tomahawk, a really nice range kit, or a hand-forged hunting knife.

Now, Jack is putting the link to put it in the comments that you guys can see it live. And I'll put it in the description. Yeah. In the description after we finish the live stream. But I'll bump it in the comments right now so you can go take a look at all over the line. So can you pin that to the top? I don't know if I can or not. Will you take a look?

Okay. So the link is up? So it's a great fun. It's a great cause. And the link that I'm giving you is to a Facebook page. It goes to Ranger Shepernan, who is one of the officers. And he has instructions for it. It's a PayPal.

Send him the PayPal. Include your phone number. And he'll take pictures of the tickets for you so that you know that it's legit. You have tickets. that they're going in the thing. And it's not their fault if I win everything. Anyway.

Rib. So please use the friends and family option. Like I said, all this is going to charity. Add your phone number. Again, there might be a way to make a note. If you live in an area where you can't have the pistol, make a note. You live in a communist state? And perhaps if they draw your name for it.

the pistol and you don't or you win it they'll get you the next thing or I'm not sure what they'll do but they'll make you whole I promise so that is that

we able to pin that no I can't pin it but I put it in there people definitely see it I can post it that it'll make you happy anyway so anyway

our guest today is Clint Sorman Clint has a really fascinating history when it comes, he spent a large force of his life in law enforcement. He has a fascinating history when it comes to both combat shooting, point shooting, and then also hand-to-hand. And we're talking about gutter fighting. We're talking about the hand-to-hand style that was pretty much, yeah, the type of hand-to-hand that was pretty much developed by Applegate and Faireran and then Sykes during War II to prop the OSS. And for those of you who, you know, don't know,

the OSS was created the Office of the Petitian Services the precursor to the CIA was created to infiltrate enemy lines in very, very small teams like generally three-man teams the Jedbirds

French, British and American Right but there were other teams in just the Jedbirds, right? Yeah Yeah, Essex teams and that OSS was like a basically almost separate endeavor. Oh, okay. So I stand corrected.

I should have reread Patrick O'Donnell's book before. And a guy named Irwin wrote a book about the Jedbirds. Okay. Really good. So the idea was that they had to teach these people, you know, communication skills because they were generally like radio back intelligence. They hooked up with partisans to help the people. partisans. They were collecting, you know, they were collecting intelligence. And so they had a lot of

training to do in a very short period of time. So this form of one point shooting and then also hand-to-hand combat was created where it's, I mean, Applegate is basically, be killed, it's basically a 12 move, isn't it? I mean, it was short. Fundamentally. Yeah. Broke it down even more so than fairer and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So. So they wanted to make these people as lethal as possible in as short a time as possible. And where obviously these people would not be able to go into a prepared fight like a UFC and go hand-to-hand with somebody who is into combat sports, the idea of being asked for papers at a checkpoint and just unleashing with, you know,

a flurry of very savage blows, specifically directed at certain areas, was something, and they were taught how to make improvised weapons, you know, rolling up newspapers, wetting them down, and hardened and British. Yeah. So, anyway, so that's a little bit about Clint's background, but we're going to let him tell you, you know, telling you all about it.

Yeah, I'd like to hear you began at kind of the beginning of the story and you know you're a long-time mentor Carl somebody you learned from and studied under and you kind of carried his legacy forward to this day I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about you know

basically how you guys met how you met Carl and how that relationship grew in your background of martial arts how we could just get out to the really important part where we met but you know do I know basically I got into the martial arts

at a young age my father did Japanese karate and So watching him doing his cot and throwing punches and being five years old and running up to him trying to grab his life and getting flung off and get out of here to me alone. So that kind of spark my interest. Obviously, Bruce Lee was big when I was younger. So obviously watching all the Bruce Lee movies and all that stuff. So that's what got me interested.

And then skipping forward, I did other martial arts with various other people, nothing too serious, never competed, never did competition. It just wasn't my thing. Nothing wrong with it, but it's just not my thing. And then around 1992, a buddy of mine had been in the Navy, my buddy Steve, he said, hey, once you come train with me, and I got a guy that's the real deal. And I'm like, oh, okay, you know. So we wanted to take a drive over to Paramus, New Jersey, and we're heading there. And I only knew a little bit about this guy at the time, Carl Sestery.

And so we get there, we're walking down a basement in a church. And I'm like, okay, so I'm going into a church. wanted how to kill people. This is interesting. So, yeah, I went, and that's a good sensation. So I get down there, there's this guy in the corner, Foo Manchu, he's smoking a cigarette, his newports, you know, typical car. And I'm like, this is the guy, you know? And the next thing I know, my buddy, Steve, he's like 6-2, built like a brick shit house, big guy.

Again, I was in the Navy, and he just put the cigarette down and said, okay, let's start. And I'm like, okay, here we go. And next thing I know, he's beating the shit out of Steve, me and with the balls, Jim, Jim, Axe, walking from one, side of the room to the other and doing a number on him. I mean, you know, I thought the guy had, you know how many he did, you know, but that was called, you know, you're going to

feel the pain, you know, and so I started in 92 in Peramis and then, um, train with him a couple times there, and then let me ask you a question. Having 70 different types of martial arts, all very formalized, I think it, all very full.

What was your initial impression when you saw what Carl was doing? Basically, I don't like the term World War II combatives. Unfortunately, that's what we're referred to, what we do. We do a lot more than that because then people want to just box, you know, they just do that old stuff and they're far from wrong. But basically, it's the mindset and the attitude that you develop through just hard training.

And it could be anything. It just doesn't have to be edge of ambulance, chin jabs and all that. It's just to develop that mindset. And everything with World War II combatants, military combatants in general, I don't know about today. but back then was to attack. Nothing was purely like defensive. He developed that attacking mindset

to go after the enemy and take them off the count, whether that was unconscious, you know, to drag him back and gather intelligence from him or just kill them out right. Like they were saying before, you get stopped at a checkpoint, you're operating by yourself,

they might only have a dagger on them, okay? Or a pair of breast knuckles. And I've heard plenty of stories from vets that had to unfortunately use some of these techniques. And, you know, you weren't sparring, you know, you weren't taking up a stance, went from zero to 100, you know? And part of that because, like, they were training guys, like, very quickly.

Very quickly. Fairbren's basic course. I mean, there was a longer course, but the actual combatants, point shooting, combat shooting was three days, Friday and Sunday for a couple hours each day. So they had, like, a weekend, and then, hey, you were getting dropped off in German, occupied, France, et cetera, to set up with the partisans and, you know, and teach. And, you know, Britain at the time was pretty much, you know, they didn't have any weapons. Everything was left in the island, Dunkirk.

So they were teaching these people on these pick forks, you know, and provide weapons. You don't need weapons. Yeah, you don't need weapons. Weapons rule the roots. Hand-to-hand school. You're going to go up against a Nazi war machine. Weapons rule the roots. This will do a long word damage to hand-to-hand combat.

But anyway, so Fairbren's course was like three days. Eventually, originally sites in Fairbairn were teaching in Britain, and they taught all different units. Everything that they taught on World War II, was a direct reflection of what Fairburn and Sites learned why they were in Shanghai, which was the biggest borderfront city in the world at the time. A lot of espionage, a lot of intrigue. There's a lot of assassination. There was a big spiring at the time working out of Shanghai.

So there wasn't anything Fairburn didn't see. When people think of law enforcement, they think of what they see today. Fairbren seen it all, Japanese, you know. And he started, really at the, was it the, he started technically like the first SWAT team. Yeah, oh yeah, Shanghai Reservation. unit, the shield, which we called the stone because it was so heavy. I actually got footage of Fairburn. Guy holding the shield and Fairburn just pulls out the 19-11 and pops a couple rounds into it. Fairburt was known doing stuff like that and they had bulletproof vests for

raiding parties when they do raids at night. Yeah, the history is very fascinating. People think today that this stuff is old or, you know, they reinvented the wheel, but this stuff's been, you know, around the long time. I'm not so familiar with Sykes' history, but I'm not so familiar with Sykes' history, I know Fairbairn, he had a black belt in championships, like in multiple, like, living in Asia, like he had, he, he, he, he studied these, and, and when it came to creating a system for these people, he took all of that. And it's like, okay, yeah, that's all good, but this is what you need. Wasn't there a system called Bartitsu? Bartitsu? Yeah, that just came up the other day.

It was at a hot forum, I suppose. I don't really want the forums anymore. I've been to those clubs. It's the more likely in actors, to be honest that had no

influence on Fairburn, Martizu Defendu there's also Defendo, just to clear some things up

real quick, Defendu with the U. at the end was Fairburn. Defendo was Bill Underwood from Canada

and he had nothing to do with Campbacks by the way. That's a more history stuff but, you know, Fairburn's seen it,

done it, he was in over 600 armed and unarmed and unarmed in close quarters combat situations, life and death.

This is all before World War II. This is all Shanghai and Yeah, Yeah, he was with the British Royal Marines. He started his career with the British Royal Marines, I believe it was 1901 to 1907. Then he went over to the Shanghai Police in 1907, and then he worked his way up to the assistant commissioner of Shanghai municipal police.

Spoke multiple languages. And he just didn't teach hand-to-hand combat and shooting. I mean, he taught at universities, he lectured. You know, he knew a lot about the Orient. He spent over 30 years there. So there wasn't much that he hadn't seen, you know. And I think it's important to note that, like, Shanghai at the time, like, because for people who don't know, Shanghai at the time was

It was like most Isley, Spaceport It was Like every nation had representation there And they were You know, they had armed forces there And there were always, always problems Like a wild list

It was Yeah, I mean, especially toward the end It, you know, prior to World War II starting out Like 1937 when the Japanese invaded China There was an outright war going on So Fairbren seen all this. Oh, forgive me for asking. I mean, was Shanghai actually a British territory at the time?

Part of it was. Part of it was. Yeah. And you had the United States Marine Corps there for, I think, since 27. The Boxer Rebellion. People don't even know that. Right. That's where in Beijing.

Yeah. And the Chinese still remember. They still got a case of the ass over there. Yeah. You had everybody there. The Russians, the white Russians, the French, the British, the Americans. Everybody was jockeying for political power. Italian?

Yeah. Yeah. So everybody was there. Again, it's open port. So, you know. And Fairbron had a. being a Marine himself. There's a, the Saxon,

I could be wrong here, taxes, there's two brothers from the Marine Corps that were closer to Anthony Drexel who do or die. So Ferryman loved those guys and again that stuff made it's winning to the United States Marine Corps. Everything that came out of Shanghai would be

taught later on. Sounds like a bit of a Renaissance man like Rudeaer Kipling or what in the area is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And then Sikes, he was at, again, he served doing World War I as a sniper, and he was really more of the gun guy, you know, uh, and probably more to do with the shooting than even Fairburn. Fairburn liked to, uh, put his name on a lot of things, the Farsword, which was the

snatchet, the FNS, the Fairbrens, the Ferryburn Sikesn-Aird. The Sancher was his? Yeah, yeah, I didn't know that. That was the Fairbrens. He designed a lot of different things when he taught, he also taught, I know he'd teach in Britain, but he tried to Camp X for a while up in Canada. Which was the OSS training facility. Yeah, and that was a special operations training group, I think one of the three, and then

eventually he was seconded to the OSS, and that's where he basically stayed to the end of the war. And then he obviously taught Rex Applegate at the Military Intelligence Training Center, MITC. People got to remember, Applegate didn't have that background, like Fairburn and Sykes. You know, while Donovan was like, hey, learn all you can about point shooting, hand-hand combat, and then he was kind of throwing him with Fairburn, where Sykes kind of stayed in England until he passed away in late 45. Fairburn taught Canada, Britain, and the United States. So I don't really have any history? A little bit of the shooting because of family members of people he grew up with, which he talked about.

But he simplified things even more, and I would say only was killed. Yeah. Made it very simple for the Military Intelligence Training Center and teaching covert operators. Also, like CIC, the Karen Intelligence Corps, doing World War II. And they all basically learned like the same stuff. They had to give it to these guys very quickly and say, hey, go out there. They didn't have time to get on the ground

and do ground fighting which has become really big. They didn't have time for that. If you ended up on the ground, you were dead. That's basically how they looked at. Even today, as a cop, I don't want to be on the ground. Right, right.

So it goes back to what we talked about in our last interview with Jim. Yeah. I mean, last place, I want to be on the ground. Yeah, I remember talking with Jim, I think Jim said all his fights. I mean, hundreds of fights he's been in. I remember, like, one time,

and I was in a bar. He said, I backed up to the bar. and the guy to choke him, like, I'm going to break his neck, you know, and everybody, like, backed away from him. But you didn't actually say that. Yeah, he didn't do that, you know, not too. He used that. Yeah.

You had to get shit to people quick, and that was the whole premise, you know. And then these guys, like, you know, assassins or trained killers, you know, the instructors that they were to taught, they were highly trained in the name. Most of the guys that I saw it out for the original 12 instructors,

um, those guys all had some kind of background. whether it would be judo, boxing, catch wrestling, so on and so forth. And it's not that one's better than the other. It depends on their experience. The other guy was Derma Pat O'Neill, which was another saying that police officer. He wound up going and teach him at the OSS for a short time. And then Fairburn basically gave his name to the first special service force or the Devils brigade of the Black Devils. And that's where O'Neill went and then taught his own system.

Even O'Neill had a lot of training too. He was a 6-degree blackbound Kodakon judo. I mean, he was highly trained. These guys were trained with the top echelon at the Kodokon in Japan at the time. So there wasn't much that they didn't see. You know, they got to see a little bit of everything. Yeah, and this is all pre-World War II. And judo, like, a lot of the techniques in judo and jujitsu were outlawed by Americans, by the Allies post-World War II.

I mean, there are, there, and I imagine somebody somewhere who has a really nice library of old books that contains techniques. that are no longer taught, you can't find it in books anywhere. We're talking about neck breaks, you know, things like that. So, okay, great. So back to you. All right, so you see Carly, you know, doing this then, which doesn't look like anything you've seen before. Okay, sorry.

So, yeah, so I train him, you know, maybe a half a dozen times, and then maybe like six months went by, didn't see him. And then again, my buddy had called me up six months later, and it was like, hey, let's go train. And I thought he meant weight training, because we were retrain now, obviously, at the time, too. and we show up at Carl's house now. You know, and this is 93, 94, and he's got the basement somewhat set up, and we just start

training. Again, it was always a small group of call. His guy, his call knew that he had, you know, background with him. He was never looking to make videos, even though later on he did. But, you know, it was just a small group of guys. Most of the guys are all tall, were cops. Carl had been a former law enforcement officer himself and had a traditional background in the Japanese in Okinaw, martial arts, and multiple black black men.

belts while they ripped, I think, 60-3 black belt. And they're legit guys, too. Now, you know, fly-by-night now. Five-and-dine dojo's the real deal. You know, he trained on the Yoshisani-Eaneska, a legit guy who passed away a couple years ago. And that was, like, his main instructor. But he trained with a whole slew of guys.

And there wasn't much caught in, sought out, you know, have one of the biggest book collections probably in the world. I think all of like 3,000 books, DVDs videos. The debris, the guy, and he could do it. That was a big thing. Carl could really do it. But back to it, it was really mindset and attitude that you got from it. So many people want to concentrate on the blows and strikes.

Yeah, that's cool. And you develop that, but it's that attitude of doing it, you know. And when shit goes bad, you're in the street and in the gutter. I mean, I tell people that look at professional boxers. Mike Tice, anybody. Look at any professional UFC guy. And when they really get into it out of the ring, what do you see? You see a ball.

You don't really say anything technical because that's what happens in a road street fight, you know, especially when someone's trying to kill you. In the rain, no one's trying to kill you. You know, who you're going to fight. You know, there's no weapons involved. You know, at 3 o'clock in morning, I leave here, I don't know this area. You know, I'm not going to be sparring with somebody, you know. And the World War II combatants, real combatants,

but it's never designed to spar people. I'm not going to sit there and throw out your hand blows and change it into a sparring situation, you know. I'm going to punch you in the face. Yeah. So, so tell us a little bit about Carl, because we've mentioned him. Yeah. Yeah. How did he get into, so he went from traditional martial arts.

What drew him into the World War II style of combatives? Oh, okay. A funny story was he was on the job at the time, and they had gotten a call for fighting a bar, when it was a biker bar. And they were having a wedding in the biker bar. So, of course, drinks were flowing, multiple towns were called. Dirty jersey. So everybody who probably went there. And like he said later on, he goes, everything I did on one particular guy, you know, it was just a slug fest. He goes, and then all my martial arts, I'm like, you know, I got done, my shirt was ripped, that had a bloody lip.

And he goes, I'm talking to a sergeant that had been with the naval landing forces during World War II. And had to be a hand-to-hand combat instructor. He goes, well, you know, you're taking a stance. You're fighting these guys. You know, the way we did things doing World War II is a little bit different. You know? He goes, this guy was walking through the bar of a cigarette. The end up being the nuts, you know?

Walk by a guy, went on him. And you had to end up across the windpipe. The guy's down. He goes, you know, that's why I started to think, okay, there's more to what I'm looking for. And then that's when he started to reach, you know, and then he trained with a guy who was really like, what was the name? Oh, God, what was my mind? Anyway, there's a guy in New York, Charlie Nelson. And Charlie Nelson, again, was a hand-to-hand combat instructor, was wounded in Guadda Canal, and him and his buddy who went to call his friends.

They went to meet Charlie and put a handkerchief in his pocket and gave him a K-bar knife and pulled their She thought he's like, Stammy. So, Carl's like, this guy's old, you know? So he goes, I go to give a little half-ass stand. He knocks it out to my hand and like spits in my face. He's like, motherfucker. When I tell you, he'd stab me, stab me, he's always like, I'd come stabbing the guy. He sidesteps me, hits me, chops me, knocks me to the ground.

Next thing I know, he's taking the handkerchief out of. He goes, here, wipe that spit out of your eye, not to him, I'll teach you about hand-to-hand combat. So he goes, after that, you know. And Charlie had taught all kinds of people, actors, Robert Deval, Deval. A lot of NYPD. Charlie was a character. So that was his initial training in what I would consider World War II combatants was Charlie Nelson. And a lot of guys train with Charlie.

But he was actually instructor certificate, too. He had an instructor certificate from Charlie. Not many guys did have that. So that was like his real first exposure. And then at that time, also getting Kelly Big killed by Rex Applegate, contacting Rex. No, there wasn't too many people called it in contact and tried to correspond with it back then, especially we didn't have the Internet.

So everything was a few letters. And I seen the letters when he wrote Applegate back in the, 80s and stuff like that. So that was like his first like real when they start to realize, okay. Being a parent can be really challenging. Child and Family Resource Network focuses on connecting pregnant parents and those with kids under the age of five

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it's unconventional. Now, he, Carl would go to, like, the National Archives, and find stuff. Yes, yeah. him and Pat, in fact, they look for anything. They could possibly find. We knew that the gutters

a fairbren eventually called his system during World War II gutter fighting, and it made sense to the American mind. And there was videos that were put out, one on knife, one on hand-to-hand. I think the other one might have been on shooting. And later on, somebody in Britain actually found them, and they're out there now you can buy them.

Really? Yeah, yeah. They're really good to see because you could actually see Fairburn. And again, Fairburn's older, isn't? He's like in the late 50s, early 60s, but you can still see. the guy can move. The guy knew what he was talking about, you know? And even Applegate said one time when they were given a demonstration at Area B in Maryland, Fairbrook got close to him, was holding his neck.

He goes, hey, how do you like that? He goes to me, right? You're in your fucking bowls. You know, you're like this. Leachshund out of him. And then he goes, come at me and Applegate says, I went out. I went to go. And he goes, I went to go, ah. He goes, next thing I know, I'm flying into the crowd with generals and, you know, curls and stuff in the crowd. He goes, they weren't too happy about that. So I said, I better listen to this guy. Yeah. That's kind of how that all,

both. Yeah. And then the shoot house and Airy B. And, um, okay. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about shooting. Uh, because, because World War II shooting and the shooting talked to, uh, to these operators is, is different than, yeah, most of what's being talked today. Um, you kind of walk us through that. Yeah. Uh, it's a big controversy. We're point shooting, instinct, shooting, combat, shooting, call whatever you want. Does it work? In my opinion? Yes. There's a lot of validity to it.

I've gotten into it with guys on the internet that were special operations guys from, and maybe they don't understand it. And the problem is, like, recently a guy, I won't mention any names. That's a guy I like, but X tier one guy. And he talks about point shooting, and then if someone's teaching it, they shouldn't be an instructor and it has no validity, blah, blah, blah. Okay. You know, I would never do a hostage rescue or a situation in point shoot at 10 yards.

Well, nobody ever said that. point shooting from zero ferrets and from zero to four yards that's 12 feet and he wasn't just talking about a hit shooting if you read the book and there's a lot of other material out there the instinct part was whether to have the gun retention, which is full talk, and every field of whatever, you know, half hit, three-quarter hip and point shoulder. But depending on the distance you were, that was the instinct where guys were going to pull their guns and how they were going to use it.

And he found that out in Shanghai. You know, when the average dwelling was, you know, a sheet of plywood, you know, 32 square feet. You know, you'd walk into one room and it was, you know, and in another room, so you wouldn't have the gun out. The gun was held at close quarters, and that's what Ferber had seen from his experience. You got to remember, they didn't go through the training like we got today,

where guys just shoot 3,000 rounds or 10,000 rounds of hangout. They might be only giving 12 rounds or 18 rounds of ammo. And they had to be able to... I don't know what you went through, Dave, but I mean, that's very similar to the training. I received sparse pistol marksmanship. Is that as soon as you clear the holster, you're breaking the race, they're coming up, because if the guy is on top of you, you want to be able to...

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even, I mean, I don't know if it's taught now. The naval tier one unit, won't mention any names, but they would teach you the system, same thing. when they were entering. I don't know if it's still taught now,

but there's a lot of validity to that. I kind of like adopted that to what I would teach. And, um, but you got to train it like anything else, you know? When you say point shooting, you're not saying like instinctual shooting instead of using the sights on the gun. You know, that's not the point.

Yeah, you know, obviously if it's here, I can't get a sudden shot, but it could be an aim shot because I'm using my body, I'm using certain instincts. If I sit in the check, and I point at him,

I'm going to be relatively on target at this distance, you know? I wouldn't do that word in probably really two yards. And then, you know, we used a flash site picture. It's terminology that was used. The terminology they used back then is different than today. But really what they are talking about is pretty much the same thing. That's where there's that gap that people really don't understand it.

It's interesting, though, because just how Marxist has developed over the years, I mean, if you go back and read some historical blackness from, like, Civil War era and stuff, some of the best you know some of their crack shots or the pistol you know their pistol arrows I guess they would shoot

their trigger finger was actually the middle finger because they would use their they would use their index finger as their the guy as the guy really and that was yeah and you know so

and the other thing is is you know if we look at trick shooters and I don't know how they do it and that's a lot of hours spell that been repetition but a lot of those shooters are not they're not getting a front

side, they're hip shooting at moving targets so you know there's I think what's important is it yes you're not going to go into a hostage situation you're not going to you know you're the point is not to ignore the sights on the weapon correct yeah

like someone once talking if you could use them you use them right okay right we're not talking about talking about you talking about you specifically hostage rescue flashbang thunder's chip go through the door and I got to put rounds on target because there's other people there and I'll write down guys well yeah and I can almost still guarantee guys you correct me if I'm wrong you guys got the background but you're truly probably not seeing your front site and your

rear site it's there but I guarantee when someone's trying to kill you you're gonna be concentrating on the threat they're probably not on the sites I could be wrong about that you know but it makes well anybody else phone Mike's perfect example Mike say in Vietnam now again we're talking about jungle warfare Mike's like I very rarely have ever had the gun on my shoulder yeah I was always kept down here and you're using my thumb, those over the barrel, and I was shooting a gun like this. Yeah. I don't, like, kind of point fire, instinct fire and stuff like that.

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's obviously changed a bit because when you get into a close quarter, you know, the shooting, you know, it becomes more precise when you're in house, you know, like. And as far as, like, seeing your sights, I mean, you, I, I, I, I, I, no, I mean, maybe they do, maybe they can slow down time enough when they're in combat. You train so much to get those sites up that whether you see them not, yeah, they're there. Absolutely. And I got that training might.

Yeah. Probably is a lot of guys, let's say guys at train will call. There's another gentleman on train will call who was big with it. But it was like, oh, whatever the OSS did it or whatever the CIA, that's all. You can't use your sites. And you can't be close-minded. Right. You know, I have all, you know, I've done that truth.

hostage rescue training and I shoot with my sights just like everybody else I'm a half-week decent shower it used to be better but not anymore well and you know you know you know different tanks like now they have the uh what is a center access uh relock position for a close quarter um which some people love and some people don't and it's like at the end of the day like train it while work like the the the fraction of offset between any of those techniques it is going to come down to like how well you do it yeah not exactly You know, not how well, you know, it's like, it's like when you're a sniper, you can get an Olympic-grade gun, but you're not going to be shooting at an Olympic-grade levels because you're not, you know, you're not capable of it. Well, I mean, I'll put it to you this way.

Like, when I was 18 Bravo and I would see guys on my team shooting a certain way, and even if it doesn't, they're not standing the way they're supposed to be in the textbook, if they're still hitting the target. Right. And they got nice, good shot groups, I'm not really not going to fuck with. them because whatever they're doing is working for them so they're like why am I gonna make you move around and adjust just so that they look like something in a manual right now right or what Jim would say what I was saying about when he would train me and he wouldn't be able to get it I wouldn't be doing it right and we're like okay just do this instead right like he knew enough he had enough

knowledge you have enough knowledge to tailor it to the person oh absolutely that's important it can't be like I certainly know I kind of got was starting to fall 10 years ago But, you know, experience, age, you start to, you know, open up a little bit more into what maybe you used to do. Right. But, you know, everybody does things differently. You know, just understand that point shooting and instinct shooting was never designed for, you know,

it's for close quarters combat, very close. You know, I would say, honestly, zero to four yards. I mean, not even four, two yards, you know. And then we're also talking about the time when you would have to shoot at night, but you didn't have night vision, you didn't have IR, lasers, you didn't have, you know, anything like that. So, so a lot of time, so you can't have the gun right in front of your face because you'll go blind. And they would use the muzzle flash, right? Yes. They would use the muzzle flash for the first shot. Yep. To light up

aluminum, you get that flash, you got like a, almost like a second when you shoot and I've done this. Doing some math right here in Queens. I did it at a place and we're demo in for some people and I pitch black. I knew what a target was. They would just hit the flashlight or a light on and off a quick so you knew what their initial target is. Then you'd point shoot and with that flash, you'd use that flash and be able to engage other targets off of that flash without using the flashlight. It's wild stuff. I mean, there's a lot of stuff out there. People just are not familiar with or they read about it. People are not shooting to live. Fairburn's block, point shooting or combat shooting. And, you know, if you look at it, he talks about the 1911

in there, that's a gun they were carrying that was sold to the shang got police by sights. He worked for Colt at the time. But if you look at the two-handed shoot, the thumbs are well on the slide, right? That's new to that, right? Yeah. Yeah, okay, in 1942, it was in Shooting to Live. And other bucks, and there's other guys besides Fairbair and Sites that also predate shooting

to live. They didn't go as far as talking about using two guns. You know, I mean, it sounds a little wild, and I'm not saying to do that, but depending how good that person is, you could do all kinds of stuff. It's really up to the individual. I mean, I'm not even pulled, like, up to speed on, like, what's the latest and greatest being taught at Safauac or Sephardic or OTC or any of that kind of stuff. But I think it's really interesting how what's old as new again.

And like these tactics and the different techniques get repeated over and over. And you see all these guys running around. They're like, oh, do you know the cool new thing? And really that's something that like the SAS was doing back in the 80s or some other unit was doing years and years. And SAS took. Right. You know, Kagan, they originally got photos in that. Originally, you know, where they're teaching the hip shooting with the sound of them?

There's a guy named Ginger Flynn who they brought down a brag and he trained them in pistol marksmanship He was SAS. Yeah, he was SAS operator in it. And taught them some CQB techniques also. There's a really interesting history

behind all that. I think there's a time of place for everything. Right. To say that's completely wrong or if someone's teaching that I disagree. You know, especially from police officers. Those were hard lessons that

everybody learned, you know, during OEF and OIF is, you know, in the late 90s, you know, CQB was the sexy new toy and, you know, the latest and the greatest. And so everybody trained in that. Everybody wanted to get good at that. And then you go into a situation where you're fighting people who adapt, who learn lessons. And all of a sudden now they're set in. up houses as

as killboxes for if you go in CQB. So then all of a sudden, what works? Oh, well, let's go back to World War II style urban fighting. Level the house. Level the house. You know, do callouts. You know, clear as much as you can

of the house from the outside as opposed to... That was when we got too addicted to doing these slot team raids. Right. Stacking up on the door, right on it in and sending... And then I'll send us like, you know what, there's no hostage in here. Yeah.

Like, why are we running in? into a house in which we had no idea what's going on when there's when there's no hostage inside and CQB was was more or less developed that came out because of a Delta deployment in like 2003 I think it was and one squad was like a third of the unit was casualties yeah that was when they realized like whoa we're not going to survive very long if we're doing these sorts of raids or precision or surgical raids on houses unnecessarily and then and then the idea like the stealth approach to the door you know,

rapid sudden action in all of a sudden it's like well let's pie off all the windows let's pie off the door let's clear as much of this place as we can before we ever go in if we're going in like why are we going in yeah like we know you know

it's one thing if you know if you've got ambiguous intelligence you know this guy might be here we don't know who's house this is you can't you know you can't just stand back and level the place um

And sometimes you have to go in, but there's nothing wrong with setting up on the walls doing a call out. So it just goes to show that like, and there may come a time where for whatever reason, under whatever circumstances it is, we go back to CQB or maybe the next four we go back to, you know, just the old Vietnam style, you know. Petrolling in the woods. Yeah. I mean, you also have to think, like some of these things that we take for granted today, like drawing a pistol from a holster, executing a combat rewerewell. like Jeff Cooper was only one teaching after the longest time in the United States I don't know when did the Army start doing that

it was until the 80s I don't know I would say that too yeah that makes sense yeah and the Brits were actually further ahead I mean I think I mentioned this before the Brits were further ahead of us because they were working like a clean desk sign environment but they had the training yeah I mean

I was a training ground that they were the proving ground I said you know I mean it was a harsh you know they're real quick yeah Okay, so I don't know even more to know where we left us Back to Carl

Yeah, training with Carl So yeah, 92 And then I went back to training with him in 94 And then until the time he passed in 2017 And then while I was it with him We would go into different guys Peter Lugano was one guy We went to the guy who invented the Vietnam Tomahawk

Right? Oh yeah, yeah Lacottomte Yeah So we love it was Tomahawk He tracks him down He was living in PA Yeah So we went out there

we met him and we met him at a bar of course you know so again what was great about the war war two guys is there's no bullshit yeah i'm trying to impress you yeah like this is what we did bro and this is what we had and we made it yeah you know it wasn't like it wasn't like they're trying to market a brand yeah yeah yeah yeah here's the accent like so after like you know about 12 beers later he's like can't pete let me ask you something um what was the actual assistant that you used with the tomahawk who what do you mean it's what the guy who sticks out chopping off. He goes, you know, if he gets in the head in the chest cavity,

you got put your foot out there and get it. And Carl was like, oh, thanks, you know. I mean, that's what it was with them, you know. Even a hand was the same, you know, he had been part of Native American Indian. He could take anything and throw it. That's what he kind of, like, was known for. And he wrote two little manuals, which I was nice.

He signed and gave to me a call. It was somewhere in my collection. But again, there was another guy, John Richter, there was a lieutenant colonel with the Marine Corps. He served Vietnam, World War II, Korea. He was another one. trained in John Stiers, who had been a protege of Anthony Drexel Biddle, who did or die.

The other guy wrote Cold Steel. Yeah. Excellent, another excellent book. So for all the years of me and these guys, Applegate, we got to interview a lot of these guys and talked to him. And Applegate was really impressed with Carl, wasn't he? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. He actually wrote that in a letter back to him.

I think he was like, you know, an operative. And then Carl was like, no, you know, Carl was very good at what he did. Because he had a really good base from the traditional martial arts, and then he took that into the combatives. So he was, you know, when he did something, he did it all out. Yeah. He was very, very gifted. Yeah.

But he also, like I said, there wasn't a time I would pick up the phone and call him where, Hey, Paul, Nicole, he was in the basement, he was training. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm not always trained. I'm not in. You know, he took conditioning to a little bit of all. Oh, yeah.

You know, almost too far sometimes, but that was him. You know, he wasn't taught anybody else to do it. But for him, it made sense. Yeah. you know and so yeah I mean like I said I spent 14 years with him and then I got my first black belt in jiu jitsu which the funny thing that kind of came about was we had a guy coming over from Japan who was teaching over there um with my respect it was on the I believe the Olympic committee and um calls like oh we got to put a seminar together for this guy so we're having a yennazka's dojo

his judo instructor's dojo so we did we set it up and I'm like well what are we wearing is that We just wear whatever regular clothes would be training. And he was like, how long are you training with me now? Like, five years. I'm like, more, like, no, I'm like, you're a black ball. I mean, it was like, no, well, you know, you're a black ball. You didn't have been there long enough from what we do, you know. And really, the World War II combatants was like old school Japanese jiu-jitsu.

That's really what it is. It's hardcore, you know, blows. You weren't street. You weren't, like, fighting on the ground and all that. You know, there's nothing wrong with that. You got to learn it. But it was real simple hardcore, do or die type shit, you know. Yeah.

So I was 97, I got my black belt, and then we were doing more interviews, train with other. We trained a lot of different people. Sayak, Seyaf, Sally. We were here in Queens. We trained with them back in like 98. Scott Son, and I mean, there are a lot of different guys. The Russian systems, you guys were talking about the last time, the system and all that stuff. Oh, yeah.

Phil's not on system because we don't know. Should we not? No, that's not enough of nonsense. You know, the Russians, they're Sando guys. Yeah. The real guy is no Sambon. Right. Cut back Samba, there's no joke.

Right. The stuff where you see, you know, you come out of me, I go like this and you fall on and flip. Oh, I didn't know that. I didn't know. That's the stuff I'm talking about. There might be, here's the other problem. A guy might be legit. And then you have that name. Yeah. And then right away, it's like you, you know, just like crowd him on. Yeah. The original of Raleigh Systems, the guy who's one of your founders of that, trained other applicator. There you'd be. He's like, I remember reading about him. He's like the 70-year-old Israeli dude. Yeah. Did he be bought a beat with a kid?

There's a couple guys. By Ralph, there's over here in Queens, he's more a historian than I am. And he has all the original trailer books. And if you look at it, it's Defendu. Everything that came out in that general era from like 1930 to 1960. You got a self-defense book, it was good shit. Yeah, I think the problem with, not the problem, but what happens to these systems is there's no money in it if you can't,

have classes, give people belts, brand it, brand it give people belts, like, you know, keep them there for a certain amount of time, you know, a few years, charge them, you know, their monthly membership fee. So if you take something like maybe the original crowd and got, which you could probably teach something, not that they would, not that they would necessarily master, but you'd probably teach it to them in the span of a week. Yeah, that was the whole point. Yeah, teach these guys very quickly to get them something to survive.

Right. But if you go and you learn Krav Maga and you're like, well, I don't really like to teach for a living, but I can't make a living teaching this. So, you know, well, it's, I don't know, you know. You get it's commercialized. Yeah, it gets commercialized. And then we add all these fillers in because, you know, it's, you know, it's like a book. It's like a nonfiction book. If Nolan says the guy's name, Amy Litchinfield. Yes. Thank you.

Thanks. Yeah. It's like a nonfiction book. If you were to boil a non-fiction book down to just the facts, just the bullet points, it's like a pamphlet. So they have to add a ton of filler in it, you know, in order to have a sellable product.

And that's what happens with all these other systems is if they want to make a living, and you know, you can't fault somebody for that. But then, but then, but even though they learn the original system that is stuff, their students don't really know the original system was they you know they don't know what the actual important techniques are so you know it just keeps on getting the whole traditional system of

ranks and I mean look at you though the guy who founded judo Girocano originally when they went from the old Manko system the old license system they go and get Manko Kaiden and they went to the belt system the original belt system was white brown black yeah that was it yeah green blue yellow orange that became right right now I'm gonna make it yellow about look son congratulations your mom's check cleared right right yeah exactly I mean, that's what happened with the martial arts, and that's unfortunate. Because, you know what?

You know, it's a shame because that's what one's... The average person, the average mother, the average guy is on Wall Street. You know, he comes in the dojo, and let's say we're just working on grabs. The guy grabbed with him. I grabbed him. And I didn't want to get hit. And, you know, God, people don't want to get hit. Right.

Right. That's the other thing that's something that Jim kind of pointed out. He should have been many times. He was like, you can't run a dojo where your students are leaving bloodied every day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They won't come home.

What's going to happen is you're going to have, and I've been in these types of... You said Dale was one of the exceptions. I could knock the guy out and come back. Yeah. You think it's awesome. You know, I've been in those types of schools and whatnot where all you have really, and you can't even call it a school. It's a training group.

You have a core group of guys who... It's sort of like the dog brothers, whoever's. You have a core group of people who enjoy kicking the shit out of each other and getting the shit kicked out. And learning from it. but you can't sell that. You know, you have to find the sadomasochus who want you. Like the like-minded people. Yeah, like-minded people who just want to go hard all the time.

And, you know, but most of those guys don't have any money. You know. Well, it's one of those things, like, somebody once told me that the best rock climbers in the world are all dead. Like, because they're pushing the limit so much. Yeah, free climbing. Exactly. They fall off a cliff now. it's like

you know he did what he felt oh I'm the best now you're at the sense but yeah

look at me but yeah I mean I said 14 years I trained with him and yeah when he passed I was fortunate enough

Phil Buddy is to get what we referred to as the dungeon was again the church where I first started to call my training for the last but call passed away

2007 and three months later I got that space I built it up and I didn't teach it out of there and doing seminars out of the way It's so bullshit I've been down here in the school man I want to go back just talking about it now I get lost it That's fun

It was fun You got down there and you brought it right into that whole You know and beyond so of Oh wow if this is it You still teaching classes down there? I haven't in a while I still technically have the spot You know I still got the key There's some stuff down there

I took some of the stuff out of there To bring home to use But I can still go down there if I have to use it and teach. I know you had, you know, I don't know if you want to get into the system, how does that affect your training? Do you have to kind of pull back a bit

when you're training on the way? Yeah, I mean, I'd like to pull back. Yeah. But the only thing I would do, if I was training with somebody, I just wouldn't allow someone crank on a choker or something like that. Outside of that, you know.

Yeah. You know, one doctor tells you one thing, you know, and then another doctor tells you now, I don't do that. So it's like, you know, use a little common sense, know where I'm at and stuff like that. I look back at some of the stuff I did. Training or recall, you know, I take an inch of hand blows across the side of the night.

I haven't choked out on concerts numerous times. You know, I've been punching, you know, when I first started training him, that was one of the biggest things. You know, a young man had a bit a couple scruffs and stuff like that. But, you know, he's really worried about. He goes, you know, like a little flinchy. I mean, I don't know, just getting hit. He goes, all right, let's go downstairs, you know.

Put some boxing gloves on him. Okay, ready? Yeah, boom! Bung you ready like, boom. Get back up. I'm like, you ready? Boom. Yeah.

I didn't know how to take a breakfall when I started doing a lot that in judo juot jujitsu. Yeah. Tomonaggy, fall out on the ground and my stomach I go fucking flying

when they're not concrete. What about a Mac? Knocked out of me I got back up and did it a couple times you over that? Yeah. But you know what?

For someone like me, that's what I needed. I need a hard fast and let's get it over it. And I, you know, it's funny because I think that like most people you know,

most people in today's society don't get in fights. And you know, and I'm not saying that is a bad thing. It's like they don't get in fights. In our culture today, all this people who has never been in a physical confrontation. And that's a testament, honestly, to kind of how great we had it.

You know what I mean? Nobody, like, we're not warring with our neighboring with two streets over, you know, for the resources down at the well. But I think that most people who are afraid of getting in a fight are afraid because they've never been hit. And if they just get hit, like really, even if they get knocked out, you survive. You survive. You get it. That's not as bad as I thought. It's anticipation like anything else.

Yeah. At the first time, hey, you train, you train, train. Even if in a tier one unit, and all of a sudden, man, you get deployed, you come out of that little bird, you stack up. And you all of a sudden, hey, this is the real fucking thing. Yeah. Bullets fucking come up you come to that guy. And then once you get past that, okay. Yeah.

You know, and you get a little confidence. Yeah. I'm not telling you guys anything you don't know. I'm using that as an example. But, you know, just, yeah, sometimes you say to be punched in the face. Yeah. It's good. It's good training.

Yeah, you know. I was wondering if you could share with us, like, maybe some specific techniques or things like Carl taught you or things that you've developed yourself that you're just not going to see more than Gracie jiu-jitsu going down to the karate clubs and some unique things that you're probably not going to find elsewhere. I would think, like, a lot of the combatants, defending, gutter fighting, whatever you want to call it. A lot of stuff is static. You know, originally, you know, the Japanese, when you look at the Japanese jiu-jitsu samurai, there was a lot of grabs on the wrist, a lot of binding techniques, so you stop a samurai from drawing a weapon.

So there's a lot of the wrist techniques and stuff like that. So a lot of that, you know, transcended over. Basically, like, he had, like, they keep stuff, you know, keep it simple, stupid. If a guy grabs you, like, we wouldn't worry about this. Because what's that going to do to me? Nothing. He's in the headmung, me in the bowls, punch me in the fist, So I want to stop that. So we don't worry about this. So we would do what was called like a shoulder stop

But basically just throwing a palm here right to shoulder to stop anything on that side of the body And again, I have to teach something quick I would just draw back in tiger claw right to the face and try to go for his eyes and the moves and throw Then if I wanted to get this off I can hit here hit to the side back knock him out I want to grab him with a wrist throw and throw a kotaayish or a Japanese move get him walking get Tommy Then you can do all that other stuff a lot of it again for law enforcement it really applies you know, chokes and strangle holes, I think law enforcement, you know, my personal opinion, is they should be doing it and learning it because look at what's going on now with law enforcement.

I mean, I can get it to that. But, you know, I mean, chokes and strangleholds at the end of the day, I mean, it was, you know, some of the things that happened have been tragic. At the end of the day, chokes and strangleholds when applied correctly are some of the most humane ways. Yeah. It's an absolute. It's a solution hold rather than go into your gun. Yeah, it is one of the most humane way.

And that, I mean, I mean. I may have been interviewed by people before who questioned me on why I, you know, choked an individual out. And I told them, I was like, it was, it was actually... It was the most, it was the safest way to handle the situation. I mean, would you rather I had, like, gotten on top of him and just beat his face in the case? Like, I just like, you know? With this, it was like, no muscle to fuss. You know, done.

so yeah it's it's unfortunate that I don't know I think that you know when

civilians hear the eye your choke or whatever you know they're thinking but that's not a properly applied

choke you do that you know yeah that's a problem the average person doesn't know what they're looking at they're not experts

and you know there's one thing I'm highly trained in and neck breaks and dislocations, you know? And, I mean, I was kind of was something I specialize, but even would call, you know, to learn all that stuff. And it's safe, but you got to, again,

if law enforcement and administration truly care about the police officers, they would have these guys training at the minimum once a week. Yeah. Send them to a dojo, have somebody teach, have a school right at the, you know, there. They're so afraid of everybody getting hurt and getting sued and being out of work. Right.

Let's face it, as a police officer, 99% of time, I'm going to go hands out with somebody. I'm going to use my gun maybe 1% of the time. Very few cops are ever going to draw their firearm and use it. You know, I think firearms training has become a long way, especially in law enforcement, which is good. You know, I mean, I know what I taught. You know, I taught a little bit of everything. And, but to hand in the hand, and I can't tell many times I backed up another police officer.

I can think of so many different situations. One particular situation, two cops that I work with, both were about six, three, two, 80, 300 pounds. Big guys. One was the martial arch guy. Four three by a bar. and a couple different arts. The other guy was just a regular, just big guy.

And he had some street scalp up against a car that had a lot bigger for money on our property, you know? So I'm sitting in the police car watching this, and I'm like, yeah, what are you guys doing? They're like, yo man, he's like, I'm not resisting. And you know, stop resisting, you know, which we're taught, you know, stop resisting. So I get out of the car, I woke up to him.

And I'm like, you know, he's pinned up against the car but they can't get his arms behind that. And I'm like, hey, bro, it's a no win situation for you. I'm like, the three of us, you know, one way to the other, you get cut. You know? And he was like, I'm not. So I kind of pushed the one guy aside, grab him, take my cups out, grab his arm.

And I'm like, I don't want to embarrass him and say anything derogatory toward the guys I work with. But later on, I got both on the side. I'm like, yeah, what are you doing? I'm like, he didn't resist me. You know, he wants to stop. I'm like, no, you know what it was? You know, I go, the arm bends this way. It doesn't bend the way you guys are doing it.

Yeah. You know, and that's what it comes down. The guy's under that stressful situation because they don't train. Right. They don't have a background in it. They do stuff that sometimes escalates it. Yeah. And I've worked with plenty of people too where, at a particular sergeant at one place I worked,

where I could come there, and I don't mind talking people. If I don't have to go hands on with somebody, beautiful thing. You would think of people who know what did you do? And I'm like, I try to talk people out of it. You know, because then I got to rent a damn reporter or take the guy out of the hospital. I don't want to do that shit. You know, I don't want me to stop there with this idiot. So there's been plenty situations where I'd have it under control,

and then a supervisor comes along. I have one in particular. And he would get the guy all amped up, and then here we are fighting this guy. Yeah. And, you know, he did that, like, once twice and the third time. I'm like, hey, you know, you do that again. You're taking a report and you're going to deal with. I'm like, just go over there and stay away.

Some people just don't know how to talk to people. Right. You know, have I went ballistic on people? I mean, yeah, of course. We all make mistakes you're human. Right. But there's just certain ways to handle things, and then there's ways not. And I see it all that I watch all the videos that are out there on Instagram and YouTube

and people bash them all enforcement. Yeah, sure. Some cops make a mistake. But there's, I watch certain situations. And I'm like, God, if that guy trained for a week, that would be funny. That's what. I know the guys, I mean, I've had special operations guys complain to me a lot about, because they go into training law enforcement afterwards. Not about this specifically, actually about medical training.

And like the ass pain they went through just trying to get cops to carry turnicates. Yeah, yeah, yeah, now it's a big thing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, and it's unfortunate because I think what most, like, what most civilians don't understand are cops are, and it's not their fault, they're woefully undertrend for what they're faced with. and what we asked them to do. What we asked them to do. And, like, honestly,

cuffing a person who's resisting is hard. I mean, we used to run exercises where, like, I'd let, you know, like, three guys, you know, indid or whatever, try to cuff me. And I wouldn't, like, fight back,

but I would just be squirrely. Yeah, I'd just be swirly. And they would, they just, they couldn't do it. People looking for the magic trick. but some guy on PCP or just a big guy. Yeah. There's some guys, and they just mock up and you can't even make.

With all my trip, you just can't do anything. You have to hurt that guy. That's the thing is it like, you know, get target fixation. And if we only know how to do one thing, or if, you know, it's like those guys trying to take his arm to that, they were probably so amped. That's what it was. That's what it was. whatever.

They didn't, and they didn't have, like, any kind of flow drill to go, okay, we go here. And if that doesn't work, we go here, and if that doesn't work, we go here. Because you can't just learn, you can't just start, okay, do this, or you can do this, or you can do this. You have to work a flow drill so that if, you know, you're grabbing a certain way, and I start to turn, you're ready for that. Right. I tell you a perfect example. We had a guy that assaulted an officer during the game. I wasn't there.

So there was already warrants out for him. That's why they were going to confront them. We're going to get away. I was working a side job. Yeah. No, not only. You get away on the thing. You've got to wear those guys.

But then I've seen him. I'm like, yo, that's what's his name, right? He's still got warrants. He goes, yeah, because now they got, we signed the warrant against him, you know, for assault. So anyway, long story short, we confront them. We get him cornered right before he gets on this elevator. And get his hands on the wall. I let my partner, who's the detective who signed the complaint against him.

He's dealing with him. I'm just kind of like standing back. and I got it by the wrist and probably by it like his bicep just holding his arm on the wall. Not doing anything to him. Well, he gets him a little bit amped up. This kid was a

I won't mention the gang, but he was at a gang. He pulls off and I get him in Waki Katami. It's a judo hole. Then I get him with 20 different moves in like two seconds and then his arm behind his back and then I had him out of hair and he's yelling and screaming. You're breaking my arm. I'm like, in two seconds

I'm breaking three spots. Yeah. I'm like cuff him. But I did it so quick with the fall process. Like you said, the flow drill. And I hadn't practiced those techniques in all honesty. At that point, probably like eight years. Yeah. But I had done it so much.

And then I remember talking to call the next day. Because I brought him to pass to him. And like, hey, what do you think? You know, yeah, beautiful. Great. He goes, and I'm going to work. That's all matters. Yeah.

You know, like Jim says, but works, works, works. Right. You know? But you've got to have the training to do it. You can't do like a two-day class and then expect that kind of distress. Right. That's not going to happen. You can show, like, what are some of the strikes that you might see, for instance, in World War II style, in gutter fighting or whatever else, that you might not see in other styles or that might be buried in other styles out of one of eight strikes?

Yeah. Because I know, like, hard strikes, you know, the cross strike with a knife to dark, things like that, the shoulder stop. You get a lot of break your style and stuff. It's all in the traditional martial arts. I would say it's how it's delivered and how it's taught. So instead of going through traditional type cata, which is not wrong with. People that understand, there's very few and far between real, what I would consider, real martial arts that you could go train with,

that you're really going to learn the real martial art, the real Japanese capo and stuff. But as far as the strikes, which we've trained with us, you know, the edge of hand hand blow, that was like the secret blow in Japanese judo juot jujitsu. You know, that blow, I mean, you know, you want to punch that that hard? No, but I can guarantee it. I can break your wrist.

I can, not definitely knock you. I know for a fact. I knock you out. A killing blow would be right across the wind pipe. You know, crushed the windpipe unless you trade the guy. I took my screen out of the shot so you guys can demonstrate if you want to.

Yeah, if you want to, like, just show. Because I don't know if you guys, if you've never experienced the break heel stun, you can do this to yourself. Just right across the side of your neck. It hurts like fuck. It's like here. And do you know,

Do you know the physiology, do you know the mechanism behind it that causes that? Corrata, well, what you're doing? When you hit with the edge of handbook to the side. And that generally, you're stimulating what's called the carotid sinus reflex, which is a drastic drop of blood pressure and heart rate. And ultimately, it's a safety mechanism, which even when you knock somebody out, when you do a carotid artery, I'd say, you know, just like, so it's very simple.

And it's fairly safe. Unless I had an issue that you didn't know about. Right. But even then, I can't even fathom that I would kill somebody with it. And you've got to know all again. food training, how much power to apply. But it's such an unconven, the problem, the great thing I think about World War II combatives,

it's unconventional. Yeah. So I'm standing there and I'm playing, like we're talking side of way. But I'm standing here like this. Someone throws a punch. One of the easiest methods to deal with somebody that throws a punch is just raise your elbow.

Let somebody put their elbow, make a fist, and then punch down in their elbow, and they're going to break their hand. At the very least it doesn't break, they're not going to do that again. So it's very simple. A lot of guys teach this for shooting. That's funny too.

But you want to protect your general area. You're facing your neck and you're throat in the back of your neck. And they use that for the spear technique. The spear technique, yeah. But having that up here, it fits right in with, yeah, we're having a firearm back here or the handgun. But at your hand blows to the side of the neck. Again, obviously if you go to the front, the front, there's a good chance you crush the windplate. You know, it doesn't take much.

The guy's probably dead. If he was over, you know, I had to back over to the base of the neck. Again, knock out or you could dislocate the cervical vertebrae at the dent's bone. But again, just against the form. You can do it anywhere. It looks, people who never trained it, they'll make your comments, but until you train and someone's actually grabbing you and just, when guys were, like, when you came over.

And we put pants on and just come in a bunch of handbook, and you feel it. Oh, yeah. After, your arms are dead. After, like, everybody, after, like, the whole day, everybody was just kind of sitting there, like, trying to eat. I'll tell you a funny story. One of the first times, the first time I talked after call passed away, and I got the school opened up in Paris.

I had two guys come down. Frank and Rob. Frank just retired from NYPD to 25 years. My buddy Rob is security, and now he's in law enforcement. And I didn't know this. So they came down, and I just had those two. They were my first two guys by myself. So we do a whole, I run them through a drill,

and I train them just like Ottawa training. They're going to feel the technique. If you go loose with people, they're going to leave there and say, you know, you got to hit people. Yeah. So I didn't know. We were talking about this maybe two or three years ago. I'm like, by the way, what did you think when you came in, like, you know,

in 97 and trained with me. What was your impressions after the first day? He goes, bro. He goes, we went upstairs. We were sitting in the car. He goes, and you left? And me and Frank was like, dude, I can't drive. He goes, no.

He goes, we couldn't close my hands. Literally. Because we sat there for like an hour until like we started filming back on our hands. And I kind of like did a number on it. Like, you know what? He goes, Frank left and said, Jesus, where was this for the 25 years? I was in NYPD? This is the shit we were looking for.

Yeah. And that's usually the response I got. Like, hey, this is what I'm looking for. Yeah. You know? Like, I'm a huge fan of boxing. Like, not as a sport, but I think that it's, you know, it's one of the most revolutionary, like, like, um, that's great.

Yeah. Uh, you know, hand to hand. And I'm not a boxer. Like, I'm not a great boxer. Um, but I just, I appreciate it. However, uh, the thing about boxing also is that in a fight, um, even if, even a lot of, like, really well-trained boxers, if they get a street fight, they break their hand. You know, there's just so much to go wrong.

go wrong if the guy, you know, kind of and you catch it the wrong way. The thing about the edge of hand is, like, yeah. You still use a gun afterwards. Yeah, you remember. Yeah. We in general, one of the last times we were training, we were doing some basic self-defense stuff in his basement. And

he goes, what do you like to do against just a basic risk rat? And I just was like, so he went and grabbed me an instinct that I just pulled away, and I came right back. Yeah, he was like, probably goes, you're, he goes, how fixed you are with those blood ones? Because that's what my spouse, that's what I special is. And so it's like my thing. you know and um we all have our like our specialty i know jim's specialty probably in a real

face and then punch you right just like oh i ain't it they both he's gonna probably punch you right in your face right that's probably what you're gonna see yeah yeah yeah specialty is a heavy right hand right hand yeah yeah you know yours is one of the i mean you don't like see too many people doing these chocks anymore in martial arts or or hand-to-hand combat but you you catch somebody with one of those chops you're gonna you will fuck them up i know you oh yeah it's not i've got me and i've got me and it's so unconventional the guy takes a box and stance, we would attack the card. So we would attack our arms to get to the side to clear the hands.

Well, because you do the short and long, right? Yeah. So if I remember the fire was coming out of a box in stands. Can you guys see this? I can take it. Take my little box down again and you guys can. This is just an, you know, we're doing it in this kind of sense. Okay. So if a guy had a basic guard,

call it and like this kind of stuff for street fighting because, one, I was punch you right in the back of the hand and punch you in your, on face, stuff like that. Yeah. But we would attack this guard. I'm not so much worried about you throwing punches because I got guards I can take with the edge of handle.

Right. That's old school. Matter of fact, old school boxing had this. Isn't that wing chung also? Like, you attack a punch with a punch? Kind of. Yeah, most systems do have that. Yeah, you know, stop.

Yeah. Yeah. But what we would do is just come in hard, not in this way, this way, and then turn and come in this way. But it's when you do it real quick. I can tell you, we go, Jerry Cooney,

the professional, professional boxer back in like the 70s, 80s, big guy. Yeah. He taught at our police academy. One of the guys had a connection and he brought him in. And he's seen me doing it. And he goes, what are you doing?

And I was like, take a boxing stance. And I did it to Charlie Cooney. You know, he was, I'd never seen anything like that before. You know, he was a professional boxer. I'm not saying I could have taken Jared Cooney. That's not the point. Right. Point was, it's unconventional and most people have never seen anything like that.

Right. And that's the thing is it like if, not Jerry Cooney, but if you were to stumble across a boxer, the idea is you're not squaring off and he, you know, and he's not scoring off and you're fighting him. The idea is you're coming from a loaded position, whether it's, you know, here or an interview position, you know, hands up where you're loaded,

and they don't even recognize that it's loaded. And that was, I mean, and that good was, I think, a lot back to the World War II South, is it the moves, a lot of them come from a loaded position that looks harmless. You know, I mean, I had a buddy who had been on Miami-Dade Swat, which is one of the busiest SWAT teams in the country. And they considered an interview,

if a suspect took an interview position with them, they would draw it down. That's a threat. But 99% of people don't understand. And so the interview position is basically, hey, I don't want any problems. Well, right now I'm loaded. You know, I'm like, I don't have any problems.

And I step in and smash. so so like people don't realize how hostile but not not how aggressive these

seemingly oh yeah and these guys are learning the shit I mean that's what calls cause

fortunate because I'm not going to get into everything about column and you can go

and read up on the internet but the guy had a little back he had to go back yeah

he had a law enforcement background and then and then he has another background that

yeah that's one Part of time, part of other things, and, you know, Jersey. Yeah. And the reality of it is, and he said the toughest guys he ever had the fight were prison guys. Prison, what he would call it, street skeleton. He goes, not at some martial arch guy. He goes, the hardest fights I ever had, he ever had the fight.

He always said that were street guys that came up in the street. That came up, they didn't know their father, you know, beaten mud of the spouses, you know, the founts or whatever. And they just came up in the street. He goes, they were the toughest guys that he ever had the fight. Not so much trained martial archies. martial art guys are kind of predictable, you know? And that's the whole thing, too.

Let's say you like boxing. And you did three months of boxing, three days a week, and you got pretty good at throwing ads, you know? And then you get a beef with somebody who just happens to be a golden glove boxer. Yeah. Well, you play his game. Yeah. Like always said, never played the other guy's game.

You're going to lose. Yeah. It's real simple, you know? So that was what Fairburn was saying was, even a highly skilled Junoka, a boxer that if you attacked, and this is Fairbren's motto. attack, attack first, and keep on attack into the enemy's no longer a threat.

But that's up for you to decide. I would say you're unconscious or in a military situation. He's waxed. Carl, when I remember one time, he never sat in front of Carl's house, and we were sitting out there, he was spoken. At this point, I probably had like 10 years or whatever I said, let me ask you something. If you had to tell me one thing, whether it be

a technique, a concept, the principle, what would it be in regards to a real fight? We're not talking about a bar brawl. I'm talking about someone trying to ice you, trying kill you. One or two more people, right? He was like, took a puff. He's like, do your worst, fast and first. Yeah. Because that's all you really need to know. How you get there is really hard to keep on it. Exactly. So the guy's a public. And that was it. And he was really right about that. Yeah. And again, it could be from lethal, even as law enforcement, you see a guy,

and you see a guy, time, and I see it all the time. And you give him time to think, worst thing you can do. Yeah. Sometimes even in a street situation, I walk out here, I get confronted by two dogs and they're doing their whatever. Hey, bro, you got the time. Hey, bro, you got a light. You know, they're trying to get me to think. Yeah.

You know, you might want to throw something right back at him. Hey, don't I know your mother? And for a split second, it's going to fuck him up. Yeah. And then you got to hit him. Or whatever. Yeah. You know, that's an example.

But, you know, that's the kind of stuff that, you know, and then Fairbred said that. It doesn't matter how tough for anybody is. If you just attack them, keep on attacking them, you're probably going to win 90% of your fights. Yeah. Speaking of which, you brought along some, Yeah, excessive.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, you're familiar with flashlights and how you can use one of your war stick to blind people. The whole blinding thing is cool. I would never bet my life on blinded somebody, but it is a tactic to use. But just how it would be considered a yawar stick. That has a fist pack in your hand. One good shot across the temple or neck, the guy's going to be unconscious.

Or it's going to open him up for other things, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Calls, big thing was like, I mean, you love edge weapons too, but impact weapons. And this is a custom-made weapon. Jack that he actually bought him. Brother, I've never even seen inject in actual life, like outside of a spy coming.

Yeah, when this right here, my law enforcement actually was having to be cops. But you don't have to, if you have to come to the point where you've got to do that to somebody, you're going to kill this one, I'm going to kill him. Yeah. But you don't need to do that. You can choke up on it, you use that much of it, right to the soulplexes,

and that's probably going to end the fight. I was talking to, I was talking to you, an old Baltimore cop one time. And, and, you know, he was a Baltimore cop like in the holy fuck

is there a spring in here yeah yeah it's just a weighted spring basically he was a Baltimore he was a Baltimore cop in like the 40 or 50s I think 50s 60 I can't remember I mean anyway they so they used to have the wooden

Billy Clems right which I guess were quite a bit different different yeah Yeah, they would film it. But the thing is, is it, he would say that a lot of times,

they would keep the billy clubs, they'd keep up their sleeves, and they just let them slide down just into the palm with their hand like that. And they, and then they go up to you guys and they just like pat him on the side of the head, like, what are you doing? And it looks completely innocuous, area,

but it was just a gentle pat. With the head, they actually have palm saps. Oh, yeah. Yeah, okay, you slip it on and then there's a lead weight right here in the mother. You know, just walk up to somebody, hey, come here, you know, I just need to do that. Yeah, I need to get you right behind the elbow.

Hey, come here. Like you would just say about that all-time cop. I think impact weapons are a beautiful thing. Yeah. You know, this is, these are your sackpuzz, right? A lot of cops there wearing a plastic, knuckle, you know, anti-a-out of them back in the day. But this has powder lead. You know, one shot from this, again, you're just not going to take a shot.

Yeah. But you don't have the hole off and hit somebody full blast. Just a shot right to the mental foreman right there. Boom, that's it. And then go and do what you got to do. Even if somebody has a guard and you hit him, you know, I'm going to probably punch you in a back. And as I'm going high, another concept of me,

if I go high, then I'm going to go low. Yeah. That's why I always pushed World War II combatants was the steel toe boots. Yeah, because shin kicks are across the shin kicks. You're not the steel or no good. Bruce Sill, I think, was it, was a PPC or PPD, whatever he used to. He was going back to a lot of that stuff. You know, a lot of the shin kicks,

a lot of the brachial stunts. And a lot of his brachial stunts weren't even coming from, from like an axon. He would just, he would throw a cross just like that. Just like that. And most guys, when they see,

you know, like a cross coming for their face, they actually open up for you. Yes. Because, because they're, they think they're going to get punched in the face, and you're actually just going for the side of their neck.

And I had a buddy, right after, right after a settled course, I had a buddy get in an altercation on the street. and just one shot and just one, it looked like a tap. It wasn't a big axe hand

coming down, it wasn't anything like that. It just across, it looked like a tap, and the guy just felt bad and I was like, huh. That's the work. Well, we know it worked because we all did it to each other in class. You're walking around each other at the back of the head and, you know. And the other thing is, in the real world,

not competition, not precede what you're going into. Right. I walk at me 3 o'clock in the morning, I'm winning and maybe the guy thought he would storm arm, he just put his hand. And then something like this comes out and then I guess, I'm getting shanked. Right. Or I'm getting a stand.

Right, right. I might think I can strong arm this motherfucker. Yeah. And then all of a sudden he finds himself in a shitstorm. Yeah. And now it comes out the black jacket. There's a perfect story Charlie Nelson used to tell people. Guy tried to mug a thing, a Italian soccer player that was over here for the Olympic trials.

This is going back a long, a long time ago. And being in the strong, good shape, you know, he, tried to get the guy to basically take off. The guy wasn't having any of it. So, boom, he just sits in one shot, knocks him down, and fights over. The street scale pulls out the pocket piece and dumps five in his chest and kills him. Because he didn't go over there and finish him off, but it's still to boots.

So you've got to decide how far you're going to take it in what the situation is. A lot of times that happens. A guy, you know, because it's a lesser charge, let's say, lost strong arm, and then all of a sudden, oh, my God, what did I get myself into it? Right. Now the weapon comes out. And not only that pride's in it now and things like that. Especially these boys are watching.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember one situation call was in. He goes, I got out of the car, guy dropped me off. We were on a corner. This one, there was actually pay phones, you know. He goes, I'm on the pay phone. I'm watching this guy get out of the car, and I watch the car go around and pull over here,

and I see this guy coming right toward me. He goes, the guy got, like, right up on me. He goes, I took the phone. He goes, I slipped in the face. Rip the cord out, and I just got, hit him with the phone, you know? I was doing it off the heck. I just left.

Yeah. Simple things, like in New York when he was living in New York City. Yeah. He didn't on a bus. he goes, I would always get a big large black coffee. And I'm sitting there and I goes, that's going to go right in your face if I have a problem with someone.

That's just the thinking that you have that. It's not paranoid. It's not paranoia. No, it's not paranoia. Yeah. Because when you least expect it, that's not going to happen. Yeah. I mean, firearms are beautiful. Too many people too with the firearms. Oh, I'll just shoot them. I'll just do that. I'm like, yeah, okay, that sounds good. Or an edge weapon. There comes the point

where you're pulling an edge weapon out and you're shaking somebody. Yeah. You better be prepared for the consequence. Yeah. Especially with DNA and everything else. Yeah. I mean, it's a beautiful thing, but, you know, you've got to be... Yeah, some of these, I mean, as long as you're not, like, came to somebody's scorn, like, a lot of these are super effective, less than lethal.

Like, you don't have to take it to the edged weapon or to the firearm state. And in New York, I mean, you forget about the firearm stage. Like, that's not... You might forget about the knife stage. You can't forget anything. Yeah, I, you know... Well, the criminal's always going to have it. It's funny, because when I, like, I didn't...

I lived in New York. for maybe five years or six years. And then one day over a park slope, I was walking down the street. And whoop car like, hits me. I'm like, okay. Obviously I looked like somebody who did something. And they get out and I'm like,

what's that on your pocket? And I go, nothing. It's just a spider go. And like a summons right there. They took it and I get a summons because you can have a blade as three inches, but you can't have it clipped your pocket.

They recently overturned one of the laws. That was fucking a lot of people. Yeah. I wonder what it was. It was something like if they could flick it open. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So that was a thing is that

I realized how lucky I was when I read that law because if they gave it, if they gave it a flick, you know, if they gave it a little wrist and it opened, they designated a gravity blade, which was like a felony.

Yeah. It was a good bus for an NYPD. Oh. There's some kids that got lock up with blades, you know, not too long ago, and they came up to me. We were in a city bar. We got, we got pressed it on like,

I went. I went through a New York City municipal building one time, had to go through a metal detector, and put my backpack in it, didn't think anything of it at all. And they find in there, I did not remember at all.

I had my crampet in there. One of those really nice box for a minute. Yeah, yeah. The woman pulls that out, She's like, what's this? And I showed her, like, it's a Karan bin. I'm sorry, I totally forgot it was in there. She's like, well, that's interesting.

I was like, for sure I'm going to jail. And she's like, well, come get it on your way out. I was like, wow, damn. It's a shame that it comes to that because, you know, we can get to that whole subject. But it's a shame because the criminal is always going to find a way. Sure. To get what he wants to get.

He's not, you know, purchasing a farm legally. You know, he's going to carry something illegally. And if they banned him all the moment, and there's no gun. Guess what it's always going to be a gun? The cop on the corner sitting in a troll car is going to have a gun. That's why I get this one. What do you think when you see like all this crazy stuff? Like I saw it when I was in London a few months

ago and there's signs everywhere like Billy's been knife free for six months. What the fuck? And apparently there's some commission in the UK that recently said like there's no place in the modern world for sharp pointed blades. Yeah. I guess they learned your lesson

for World War II when they were disarmed to the self. Something I had to accept again. It's great is It's just stupid. It's like, wow. What's great is, these are all people who have federal protection, you know. And in the civilian world, so many of the outspoken critics of, you know, various, you know, gun laws or whatever, or have bodyguards. They have armed bodyguards. They have retired cops who are, you know, caring.

and it's like you guys don't need guns but my family we need protection. We need arms protection. I'm for a second amendment, you know, you should be able to carry. The only thing I would say that comes along with that, you know, when you think about, like, the thing is some of the people that you know that they go and get a permit to carry

without any training now. I would say you've got to have some kind of training. That's the only thing I would say. That's the only thing I would say. I... I, like, it's all confusing to me because I don't, I don't pretend to know know like well i mean i mean it's the hypocrisy you're commenting on i mean it's like uh you know

here we're having our climate summit and here come all the royal family flying in their private jets like gold stream exactly exactly and they're telling us like you know you can't drive your car you're immoral if you drive the car they weren't there right it's like what right the whole message is like let them eat cake yeah that's exactly what is like hey you can rent that electric scooter for a dollar an hour drive that across town if you need to go somewhere dave we're have our fucking gold streams. Yeah. Is that what I mean? Exactly. Yeah.

Oh, geez. Yeah, it's politics. The whole thing is just fucking... But it's bizarre. But if you guys have any questions for Clint, ask them. We'll run this for another like 10, 15 minutes. Yeah, sounds good. Before we roll out. So if you got any questions

for Clint, did we miss anything? There's anything that you wanted to talk about that we missed or anything like that? You can tell that story. You can tell that story. No, it's just funny. The whole group of us, how we all know each other. Like, I met Jack through Jim West,

and then we trained a couple times at gyms. They came down to my place, and I met Dale, because I was at Dale's 6-3 black belt when Jim promoted Del Comstock to 6-3 blackball, so I got to meet Dale and then later on shoot the crap with him back at gyms. I met you back in 2000, late 2001, when you call me from wherever. I'm like, yeah, okay, buddy. So I, you know, I, you know, I, I mean, I train, or I used to train.

I haven't been trained lately, but I used to go wherever I could to find somebody to train with and learn from and always had an interest in it. And I don't remember how I came. It was probably like on Bolsheito or something. We had a site at the time, so it might have been the original kind of finding a site. Yeah, but I don't even know how, maybe it was Applegate's book that led me in that direction. I remember. but I sort of kind of got in my mind this idea of this old

combats you know the old style stuff and so I started doing research and there were some people out there who were like I could just read their resumes and know they're bullshit you know or whatever and then I came across Carl's name

and and found you guys and I was out of the country at the time and you can tell the story from there in some far away place yeah I think you call me on the sat phone

or something and you're talking to me and probably get an email and I think then you call me and said yeah call me at this time and you're telling me a little bit when you can tell me at the time and I'm like hearing other stories from people I'm like yeah okay bro

I'm like you know I'm not trying to be all secret scroll all I'm like all I said is hey I really want to try with you guys I'm out of country right now but I'll be back on these days you guys have anything going on And it's like, yeah, okay.

All right, you're out of the country. I got it. And then you did, he came, and it was great because that's how we met. And then Pat O'Donnell. He was there, Mike C, and they had a good guy that they might try to get on. And then I was going through the Ranger Network in New York City. And just by happenstance, we both knew you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you had a software party or something. I remember seeing the pictures of him, shit. Yeah. Somebody's birthday. And I'm like, how do I know? It was my birthday. Yeah, it was your birthday. That's what it was.

Yeah. And you guys all had a picture. I'm like, great, you make that's Dave. I'm like, wait, that's him. That's your last day. Yeah, that's it. Somebody's asking about tasers. What do they play in all this?

What are the limitations of the taser? Don't carry them. Never have. I think they're cool. Right now in New Jersey, I mean, where I work, I work as a federal law enforcement officer, but where I work, there's always talk about going to them. That's great.

I mean, I think they're good. So again, there's those limitations. I always expect that it's not going to work, then they're great. And, you know, they work. You know, not all the time. I've been tased before. I know they were. I've never been tased.

Yeah. I never been tased. I'm pepper sprayed about some times. Yeah, yeah. I'll put it this way. I get tased. The next thing I know, I'm on the ground that I hear someone screaming at the top of their lungs, and I realize that's me.

That's my disembark. That's my disembodied voice. I shouldn't say, I had the taser. I've been zapped out with a stunman. That's the call got me once. Now, second, I've been the tasers, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, what's the difference?

The taser is that the two prongs goes into you and you ride the lightning for, like, what, seven seconds? I think so, yeah. Yeah. It would be set, I believe, too. But, like I said, I don't carry him. I don't know what's going to be people I do in Jersey.

Now, are our stem guns affected or no? Anybody know? It could be. Depends how you use them. Oh, yeah. What's the future? future going to be like for cops are new training programs coming in are they improving and adapting to improve you know it's i think firearms though has come a long way i got to say being

a pharmaceutical instructor medical being i mean i got to talk about where i work now but i worked for several different agencies i worked for a state agency local and i work for as a federal law enforcement officer we get a lot of training um and good training at that i have to say like they send our guys out to firearms schools well-known guys a lot of medical training we have medical training staff so we get a decent amount of training even we even get a lot of defensive tactics training where a lot of guys they go through that six-month academy and then that's it they don't they don't get nothing I mean every other year to I might get their ask or PR 24 training you know renewal and you know and their hang guns twice a year you know and then that's it you

know what is it like it's like firing one magazine at a paper plate or something yeah I mean jersey I believe it's uh I think the hang on for days uh 50 rounds at night is 50, so that's about a hundred to rounds. Yeah. It's still not a lot. But it's not like six months. Yeah, yeah. In the academy, it's a little bit more, obviously,

you're doing more training or repetitions and stuff like that. But, you know, my personal opinion is, you know, you should be running through that course once a month, but, you know, money was. Steve wants to know, I guess there's a question more for me, if we're going to have George Hand on the live stream. And, I mean, it would be awesome to have him in studio, but he is out in Albuquerque, I believe.

But I do want to have him on, and that's the thing I've been working on is to try to have it so that we can interview people remotely, so stand by for all that. Yeah, we just purchased software that should help us do that. Anyway. I will figure it out,

I will pay someone to come here and figure it out for me, one way or the other. Andrew asks, how would the OSS fight training compared to that received by a group like Merrill, Marauders. Almost the same. It was almost the same.

You know, most of the training was either called judo, combat judo, and it was a combination of, you know, combat judo back then was considered, like, the defendant. Yeah. You know, if you look at any, matter of fact, if you look at

1942, unarmed combat for the American soldier that the Army put out, I think 365 pages. I think the next edition was 1946, there was 12 pages. So they found that kind of like, what worked

and what didn't work, you know. Yeah. If you guys can ever get your hands on any of the old manuals, like they're fascinating. The old OSS manual. The old. About sabotage and that's been in a bunch of fucking fascinating.

Amazing. I mean, even just like an old, like an old Marine Corps combat, hand-to-hand manual, like, it hits. Bro, I have a Vietnam era manual on, I think it's primarily on infantry combat. It's like the kind of god you can give to like a corporal or a private.

and I was shocked some of the shit in there they're like oh yeah what you do is take an OD Green jungle sock fill it up

with sand hip center in the back of the head like holy fuck you'll never see this in a TM or FM today it's amazing when I see some of the books

that were printed you know like I even seem like when I was over I talked in Sweden a couple of years back I was teaching at the Land Warfare center in Sweden

their combatants instructors I was brought over and then the first day was there I taught out there I guess like their regional law enforcement academy teaching them point shooting and that's a perfect example I went over there and I'm teaching the cops and I'm

like I line up where you guys normally would line up at and they get at seven meters or seven yards I'm like so what do you guys do you start hearing and they go in you're like no we start here and we go back so they would go from seven yards or seven meters backwards and I'm like you do know statistically gunfights happen from zero to about four yards 21 feet I go so you're totally missing the whole what's really important yeah and I was like obviously I couldn't changed after them, but they're actually sending a whole bunch of people over here from Sweden to training for law enforcement, you know? And, you know, it's amazing what others countries do when you see it. I'm like, well, you know, why? What's the thinking behind that? You know,

as a cop, I'm going to be close to somebody interviewing them, you know, so I need to have those methods of having the gun away. If I'm standing here with him, this is a little piece of, oh, you always have to use your sights at this distance. I'm going to pull my gun out and do that. That's the whole point of disarm. Yeah. I'm going to put the gun out that close. I'm going to put the gun out that close. I'm not you want, that's fine, but that didn't make much sense to me. So, again, a lot of it is just a verb use that you use. I mean, they didn't have night sites. Like you brought up a perfect example.

If you read shooting to live, Farron actually had the armor put a shotgun bead that's on the end of a shotgun, just a silver bead, on the end of his 1911 and had it polished. So any glint of light could be picked up on the front of his 1911. So what were they talking about? Right? Frontside. the phone support and also picking up on that front site. You know,

today we got the Tridicon and stuff like that. So, again, call would be like, again, because these guys don't fucking read anything. They used to drive him nuts because he could go back into his library and pull something out and say, okay, well, here, look here. They didn't. They knew about this stuff. But they only had so much technology. Right.

Just like Fairman thought the 1911, the 45, was going to be a great knockdown gun power. But he also said that really wasn't the case with the 1911. That the Japanese, or what was it? There's the Filipinos we built it for. Yeah, yeah. Literally the Moros. Yeah.

And then there's one, I figured out of the Chinese. They were they carrying the 380, but there was another gun that they had out of where I can't remember. It might have been a 455, but basically that round was the size of a 9mmeter. And that had the most, from a fair burn scene, the most killing power, lethality, was basically a 9 millimeter. And today, 9mm. And today, 9mm. All right, everyone took 40, everybody's going back to the 9mm. Yeah.

All right, we've got some more questions here. Or martial arts watered down all around the world or just here in the U.S. of that? Probably everywhere. You know, I think they're awarded that. But if you go to like a five and dime do, I hate to say it, a five and dime dojo, let's face it, what do you know? You got to look at these. You got to like anything else. You've got to research stuff.

People I ask me, oh, where can I go to learn the stuff that you teach? I can't really give me an answer because I'm me and call him and you'd have to come and train with me. I think it's a really good example is Taekwondo. Like, I have known some bad. like maammer jammers who only trained taekwondo I mean I've seen a dude

a buddy of mine like lay three dudes out with spinning kicks you say nobody will ever use a spinning kick in the street I've seen I mean I've seen it and it like he crushed them but that was his

that he was good at it he practiced it but Taekwondo is also a very marketable very water I've been for the first ones I've learned Yeah It's one of those

Arts that gets a bad name because of how watered down it is in You know I'm probably not just you as Probably throughout Europe I mean probably like In a lot of places Because people don't like to get hit

And it's funny because you look at the original The original Taekwendo And at Lorraine do So you yeah I have the guy who found the Taekwondo I got a hook at home Okay It's original wow

It's really show to come from around Yeah you know for the most part then there's a car ring out or other knockoffs of that you know and um but again it's just it's not the people what i would say is forget about the martial art the name and all that stuff you got to look at the instructor yeah and and see what he's about go look at these schools voice your opinion what you're looking for you know he might have it but it might take a long time for you to get to there yeah but there's no magic pill there's no secret you know you're not

going to be able to go like this and he's he's going to drop that shit doesn't exist the touch of death doesn't touch of death man reema williams told me that that's but I can't default. Yeah, you know, I mean, Great pool. Holy cow, great pull. So, you guys, you guys, you guys,

got to talk me how to shoot. Yeah. What is, where was it? What ideal ratio of police training time compared to time they spend out on patrol?

I guess he means, like, how often should cops go in and receive hand-to-hand combat or shooting training? I mean Like the ideal question To you every day

Right Every day In a perfect One You just even in the academy If you got a six week I mean a six month academy And you train

Monday through Friday For an hour Defensive tactics And that's six months That's a time You could come out I mean freaking pretty good Yeah

You should be able to handle yourself You know Size plays a difference You know Being a man versus of being a female You know people I want to talk about certain things

And I watched it I'm like It makes a difference you know, I'm six foot one. If I'm not trying to fight you, Clint, like you have the weight advantage on that. Oh, yeah, I'm 230 pounds, six foot one. A girl that's five foot, I don't care if you're traveling around. See, you ain't put me in cups.

It's not going to happen. You know, I don't care who you are. No females are going to do it. I mean, I'm unfortunate enough, and I'm not bragging because there's nothing to brag about. But thank God through my training, my mindset, and everything I did get from Carl, that there hasn't been a situation since I've been in law enforcement that I've never had, I never had a problem getting somebody in the cuffs or getting a situation under control. And I'll be honest with you, it was never nothing secret or looked he did.

It was so basic, basics. And getting it done with quick and not giving the guy time to think for the most part. Someone wants to know about defending from a large dog attack. It depends on, like, I mean, as a police officer, I have my ways to deal with that. There are things that you can do. Yeah, I mean, I've been attacked by a dog, so I know, I had plastic surgery in my face and my neck because I got attacked by a dog I took my face off. Jesus.

Yeah, when I was younger. I wasn't a cop. I was fine, so I know what that feels like, you know. So your techniques weren't that solid then? No, no, yeah, no. But the only one of the dog is, I mean, actually you got a book from Klingenstolfer. He was a second-degree black belt, a Russian guy,

or German, I forget. But I got his Gito book. He actually has the dog grab it onto his arm, and he would come down now whether it's a worker, and come down on the base of the neck, the brick its neck. I mean, I have kicked the door right between the front legs with a good front kick with a pair of boots on, and that stopped that real quick.

As a fact, the door was just laying there afterwards. I've also seen a fellow officer with a 40-caliber, a shoot of Pipple that came after us, and Pipple took off, went around the house, and he came back out even more pissed off. My captain was on the side of me on the team that I was on, and he had said, here, try this. With the M-4, 55-brain, full-metal.

jacket, boom, I mean, that dog like the heart was just snatched out of him. So, you know. Yeah. I think that like prevailing, I mean, it's generally giving the dog, the arm or the arm or on. And then you know, whether you come down on top or

come up for the throat or you know, you know, even rabbit's eyes. He made a good point. Not to cut you off, but how fast the human psyche and he bought him a dog. He said, think how we fear a dog. You know, and then know there's one thing that it can do.

It might you. It doesn't have fists. It doesn't have feet. You know, and how many fear that. There was a situation where two dogs were let out on him after,

he just hit the streets and somebody had stole something from him and he needed to go get a car battery. So he goes, I go there and I see my car battery and he goes, that's my car battery, and the guy closed the door on him and then let out two German shepherds.

He goes, being 230 pounds and just fucking pissed off because these dogs came at me out and I was just like, ah! He goes, they just, they just, put the brakes on and they took off. He guys with my wife was in and you can ask her.

So there's always that. The new group, you can also do with some guys I know. As a fact, C.J. Karachi, he was the original Silt Team 6 guy. When he was a cop down in Florida, he had, and I did the same thing, leather, you know, like the pump metal, the leather braces with the points, the studs. Oh, yeah. Wear one of those with the points on it underneath your shirt. You have to deal with a dog.

One of his bites down on neck, you ain't going to be biting down on it for wrong. Yeah. That's one way you protect yourself with gloves, wearing a pair of gloves. I'm wearing a pair of gloves. I won't get you punch and using the snap with a little. pair of gloves on that shit. But there's not a young, like I said, they just never know. It's that fear of getting bit.

But you got to do something. You mean, grab them, pin them down on the ground, grab them by the rimpipe like anybody else. You just don't get them, unfortunately. Training with a heavy bag. What is some other good equipment to have for people who train at home? I mean, I don't know if they still make it, but the spar pros, they're pretty nice.

The bodies, the on the base of stuff, the bobs, the sparr pros. Yeah, I got both of them. I got three of those. I don't know if those are great. Yeah, we had those. They're good. Nothing really replicates, especially with the blows that we do, than the human body and putting pads on, having somebody else there,

or making stuff. I'd be honest with you, most of the stuff that was sold commercially, call would break within a session or something. So eventually, in his basement when I first start training room, we just built stuff that was spring-loaded with duct tape and pads and two-by-fours, and we just made it wrong stuff because the average stuff is not... Yeah. You go to chop in the worst pad like measure your fist punch and he put it out with a...

on the beam in his basement and he called, come from him, oh, my getting, a reverse punch. I mean, yeah, and punched his finger thing, and the spring flew out of it, the timer flew out of it. Carl was like Jim, and Carl was made of iron. He spent so much time, even...