The Team House - The Untold Story of Lincoln's Special Forces | Pat O'Donnell | Ep. 282

Episode Date: June 8, 2024

Support the show here:⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Combat historian, bestselling author, and public speaker Patrick K. O'Donnell has written 13 critically acclaimed books that recount the epic stories of America's wars from the Revolution to Iraq. A Fellow at Mount Vernon, he is the recipient of numerous national book awards. O’Donnell is a premier expert on elite and special operations units and irregular warfare.Grab Pat's books here:https://www.patrickkodonnell.com/index.html——————————————————————To help support the show and for all bonus content including:https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse-AD FREE AUDIO-AD FREE VIDEO-Access to ALL bonus segments with our guestsSubscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseOr make a one time donation at: ⬇️https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouseTeam House merch: ⬇️https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963Social Media: ⬇️The Team House Instagram:https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_linkThe Team House Twitter:https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePodJack’s Instagram:https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_linkJack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21Team House Discord: ⬇️https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6SubReddit: ⬇️https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSampleWant to sponsor the show?Email: ⬇️[e-mail]#specialoperations #civilwarBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Hey guys, it's Jack. I just wanted to talk to you today about a way that you can help support the podcast if you're not already. To support the channel is to become a Patreon member. So we have Patreon memberships that start at just $5 a month. And when you sign up, you get access to all of our episodes ad free. That's the big bonus for that. I mean, we also do some Patreon bonus episodes for our subscribers. But this is the biggest and best way that you can support the Team House. channel and podcast if you'd like to and we really appreciate that so go it and check us out at patreon.com slash the team house special operations covert ops espionage the team house with your hopes jack murphy and david park hey everybody uh welcome to team house episode 282 i'm dave park uh With me is Jack Murphy and our return guest tonight, our very good friend, Patrick O'Donnell. Patrick is back with you tonight. Back with a new book.

We're happy to have you real quick. Please like, subscribe to the channel and join our Patreon. Add free episodes on our Patreon. Links in the description. And sometimes Jack Post feet picks. Anyway, Patrick, this book has. been a work. And we've had Patrick on, if you have not read any of Patrick's books, you need to. In addition to the Vanquished, the Unvanquished, you have Dog Company, We Were One,

which was your personal story when you're with Marines and Flusia, the unknowns for Seals, I mean, Beyond Valor, like, you have so many amazing books. And I have to say, this is your best book yet and I love your books. Thank you. I spent seven years on this book and my editor agrees with you and I agree with you too. I think this is

the finest book that I've ever written and I have 13 books and I think all of them are great but this one I think is my finest book because it was unearthing an untold story that was very, very difficult

to to put all the pieces together. But once it came together, it's so compelling. It just puts you in the saddle of these men, these operatives, the covert ops, the things that, you know, we see today. This is all tradecraft that many of these, you know, incredible individuals perfected.

It's enhanced. Yeah, it's amazing because this book, it's nonfiction. It's taking in multiple. I mean, you know, many, many different accounts from obviously journals that you've read, things that you've unearthed. And it reads like a spy novel, like an action novel. Every chapter is just kind of on the seat of your pants. It's amazing.

It's an incredible book, Patrick. Thank you so much, Dave. I really, you know, I value that. Your opinion and judgment on that means a lot to me. Yeah, I had a tremendous, one of those glorious reviews in the Wall Street Journal recently. So that this is the, this is from the saddle. That's the view of the Civil War. But it's also the covert war, the shadow war,

that is a fresh perspective that most have not even seen. It's kind of a breakthrough book, the journal said. So it's been a best-selling book, and I'm been thrilled with the response from people that have read it. So the book is The Unvanquished. It's the untold story of Lincoln's Special Forces, the manhunt for most of these Rangers, and the Shadow War that forged America's special operations.

And that's a big title. Like it claims a lot. But as somebody who is not a Civil War buff, as somebody who I would not sit down and read a book about the Civil War, it's just it's never been all that. I like the big picture of the Civil War in terms of, you know, knowing who went wearing this. But this book had me just riveted the whole time. And what's so fascinating is, is. I just want to read this part because it's very, very interesting. So when, so set the precedent or set the scene of Wild Bill Donovan writing President Roosevelt about the need for special operations.

This is 1940, 1941. America had not entered the war. And in 1941, it was the summer of 1941, something called the coordinator of information was formed. And this was to basically take the silos that were there. There were about five of them, include the State Department of the Navy and the Army, a couple others that were gathering intelligence out there and then put them under sort of one roof. But Donovan saw the need, and this would become what we would know as the OSS one year later. General, this is Colonel Donovan at the time, recognized the need for special operations forces, covert warriors. It wasn't purely an intelligence function that he was trying to establish, and this is what he does.

But he's dealing with an ossified bureaucracy within the Army that only believes in conventional forces. there is absolutely no need for special operations forces in their mind. This is way too, this is bleeding off good men that will be used for the army. So he has to convince the president. And he writes a letter in 1940 that reads, America needs grill of bands of bold and daring men organized to sow the dragon's teeth behind the lines. Men calculatingly reckless with disciplined daring or trained for aggressive. action, it will mean a return to our old tradition of the scouts, raiders, and rangers.

And what Wilde-Beldonovan does is with his organization, which includes something called the research and analysis branch. This is also groundbreaking because he takes the great scholars of America, people that were experts and, you know, everything from economics to history. And in this case, takes some of the great historians in the country and puts a lot of people. on a task. He wants to understand what, how our first modern war, how the regular forces operated during that war, and he specifically looks at the Rangers. Another sort of untold aspect of the Civil War is a Confederate Secret Service, which is about 100 years ahead of its time. And then truly an untold story of the Civil War, which I unearthed in the unvanquished, and that's called

the Jesse Scouts, otherwise known as, as I'm a story. I call them Lincoln Special Forces. And these are, you know, just really incredible men, 50 to 100 men, maybe about 100 or so, that are given the task of performing hazardous duty behind the lines. They have no idea, many of these men are 18, 19-year-old boys that have no idea what it means to volunteer for hazardous duty. And they're asked to volunteer for it.

They step forward, and then they're told to put on. on a Confederate uniform. And they're putting on the enemy's uniform. They're effectively becoming spies. And they know that if they're captured, they'll be immediately executed either by hanging or being

shot. And that's exactly what happens to most of these men. They never come home. They receive, you know, through the course of the war, seven medals of honor. And they literally change the course of the war through their actions. But they also hunt the South

most dangerous men. And that includes John Singleton, Mosby's Rangers, which literally pioneer modern American guerrilla warfare. And they also go after the Secret Service. And this is a very daunting task. And I tell it in the unvankished. So I want everybody to stick with us tonight. You have to listen to this because not only you're going to hear about these incredible

units, how they pioneer tradecraft. source operations, human intelligence, and guerrilla warfare, but we're also going to get into the literal and actual plot to assassinate Lincoln, which I don't know how much that's been talked about before. So open this up for us. So the Civil War starts in 61. Is that correct? And where do, did Mosby, did he start the first irregular units or was it Jesse's, the Jesse's scouts? Jesse Scouts are first.

And they begin in Missouri, which is a, you know, an absolute disaster of the insurgency of a civil war. It's, it's neighbor against neighbor. it's not like you know the south and the north everybody there has their own you know particular way of doing things or which side that they're on in many cases

they don't know and it's it's very bloody and john c fremont is given command of the area john c fremont's an extraordinary man he's known as the pathfinder because he explores the american west he's involved in

in the war against Mexico and specifically helping seize California. But he also uses scouts to great effect, including Kit Carson, who's one of them. But he interacts with Native Americans. And when the civil war comes about, he's given command of Missouri. And he brings back the scouts, the concept of scouts, into a unit that will help lead his armies, but also it's part of a it's part counterinsurgency role too they're actually trying to hunt confederates and this unit is is absolutely fascinating it's called the jesse scouts because it's named after his wife jesse fremont and you know one contemporary person at the time or was actually a journalist said that of the two people jesse was the better

man between, you know, herself and her husband. She was just an extraordinary woman, one of the great women of the time. Well read, she was a senator's daughter. She was somebody that just had this tremendous charisma and can go into a situation and take care of business. The men looked up to her and they named themselves after her. And it was also her idea potentially to, you know, for the men to wear Confederate uniforms to blend in and to infiltrate behind, you know, Confederate lines.

to either take out targets or lead General Fremont's armies. This is a great story. Unfortunately, the Jesse Scouts had a really shadowy and dark history as well during this early phase. They were led by a guy of the name of John C. Carpenter, and Carpenter was just sort of a notorious con man to some degree, but he also would steal anything that wasn't nailed down. And the scouts, you know, they got a, they developed some great trade craft.

Carpenter literally infiltrated, occupied Fort Donaldson, got, you know, the plans for the fort. I found actually a hand drawing of his, you know, part of his mission. They were able to exfiltrate. I mean, did some really amazing things, but this darker side eventually caught up with him. and he was cashiered out of the army. And the scouts kind of limp along, the General Fremont refuses command under General Pope. And the scouts basically almost disappear,

but a remnant of them remains, just handfuls of them. And they are then taken under the command of General Milroy and passes from one command to another. And they grow into more of a strategic, force. Now, it's interesting because like some of the tradecraft that you talked about in the book is like they had they had like code phrases, they had bona fides, you know, they developed ways of, you know, identifying each other. And it wasn't like there were POWs in the Civil War. There are prisoners of war. But if you got caught in an enemy uniform, you probably weren't going to be treated with

with the best, with the best care and comfort? Most of these guys were killed immediately. Or they were, they would, they would have to fight their way out of a situation. But in most cases, they had to talk their way out.

And they had, they had to develop a really advanced, alias and cover story of what unit they were impersonating, that they were actually couriers or they were scouts on the Confederate side. And it was elaborate stuff. But they, most of these men also had, they were born in the South in one place or another.

So they had a Southern dialect that they were able to impersonate whatever unit that they were, that they were, you know, trying to take on. And this is, you know, really extraordinary. They would morph into whatever unit they were trying to impersonate. And they were very successful in most cases. And so what were, you know, you mentioned sneaking into Trump. Like, when we talk about very successful, were these guys actually influencing the war? What were some of the major contributions that they were making?

Absolutely. In multiple phases, first, there's a subgroup within the Jetsy Scouts called Blazers Scouts. And this is arguably American, the U.S. Army's first counterinsurgency force in a modern war. The Civil War was our first modern war. And these men were designated as Confederate hunters. And they were the best shots. They were excellent trackers. They were expert woodmen.

And they would use their trade craft to go after the South's most dangerous men. And it begins with in West Virginia, where they go after Thurmond's Rangers. And West Virginia is like Missouri. It's a mess. with different rivalries between in Appalachia it's the Hatfields and McCoys

I mean you've got all these kind of bands either working for the Confederacy or in some cases joining the Federal Army and these guys have to go after them and they don't do it with a blow torch I mean they're using some really pretty remarkable coin theory

where they're you know they're talking to whatever whatever civilian that they can, a young woman or a young boy to get a little bit of information, a little tiny nugget where they're building kind of a mosaic of how to go after

their query. And they're very successful. But within that, you have the counterinsurgency element, but then these guys are also leading the armies. And they're out front. They're your tactical intelligence.

determining where, you know, the weak points are. And they literally changed the course of the war in several battles, including the third battle of Winchester, which we'll get into later, where their tradecraft and intelligence changes the course of the war and the people, the contacts they establish. They also untold stuff until this book came out, they are involved in the, near the Battle of Petersburg, specifically,

one of the most decisive engagements of the war, the Battle of Five Forks. And they are providing General Sheridan with real-time tactical intelligence on where the gaps are in the line. And he's able to use that tactical intelligence to direct his attack, which he actually leads personally with the Jesse Scouts.

They do misdirection missions. They send supplies. that are bound for Lee's Army in the wrong direction. They go after his supply trains. They do some really amazing things that help end the war and prevent the South from using regular warfare to great effect. So on the north we have the Jesse Scouts, Blazers, Blazers, Independent Scouts, there are a number of units.

Let's talk about Mosby. John Singleton Mosby is probably the most interesting person in the book. His story begins early in the war, where he asked Jeff Stewart to create a grill a band. And Stewart says, okay, you can have one guy with a, with a bum leg, a club foot. And they go out, they start to, they try to recruit some people, and they end up in a train station,

and Mosby's pistols are in his horse, and he's captured immediately. So his whole plans of glory disintegrate quickly. And he's imprisoned in a federal prison. and Mosby's just extraordinary in the sense that he's able to make lemons out of lemonade. In a prisoner exchange, he is granted the ability to be transported back to Confederacy to Richmond. And he's on a Union steamboat.

And he's able to co-opt the captain of the boat, who is, he sizes up as a Confederate sympathizer. And he's able to get information. from him on which units are being moved around. And this is just vital intelligence because he then is able to ascertain that a, you know, there's a pending union offensive. And he knows exactly where it's going to be. And as soon as he gets off the boat, instead of just like hanging out and going to dinner,

he rides immediately to General Lee's headquarters with this actionable strategic level indulgence. Yeah. Which changes the course of the war. It changed the course. Well, I should say it changed the course of the battle for Cedar Mountain, which becomes a Confederate victory. And it's through Mosby's intelligence that he furnishes generally with who acts upon it. So when Mosby sets up his Rangers, and one of the people you talk about is AIMS, who was a union deserterter.

Yes. What happens next is, Moses was given another chance to create this guerrilla group. And it's the winner of 1862. It's a place called Oka Manor, which is only about a mile outside of Millburg, Virginia. The book, The Unvanquished is really a driving tour of many of these places because they still exist. All these safe houses, all these skirmish points. You know, all of this, much of this land is still as it was during the Civil War.

is Loudoun County in particular, which is, you know, bucolic. Oaken Manor is outside of Middleburg. He meets Jeff Stewart, and he's given the ability to create another grill of horse. He's given six men. They quickly, you know, mushrooms into 50 men, and they go on raids, and they're very successful. And you mentioned Yankee Ames, who's probably one of the most fascinating characters of the book, because he doesn't start out. as a confederate.

He's part of the fifth New York cavalry. He's from Maine. And he's a traitor. He doesn't like the fact that the Emancipation Proclamation is about, you know, bring slaves in border states and then also the Confederacy. This is Lincoln's proclamation. And instead of, you know, he was told that the war was about preserving union. He doesn't like it one bit.

And he literally deserts his command, refuses to fight for it and shows up in Mosby's camp unarmed. And they're initially sort of incredulous as who this guy is that, you know, this shows up. Mosby has this amazing sense of a character and who people are. I can see through anybody. And I'll also point out he's a fascinating character. He's like 5'7, 128 pounds, wiry, but has incredible gravitas

and in a keen mind he's a lawyer before the war he even kills a man or almost kills a man before the war but doesn't believe in secession at first but it's his state that's going to war

so he joins the Confederacy Calvary in particular and Ames shows up and he tells Ames if you want to be part of the Rangers you have to go get your own horse.

And Ames literally has to infiltrate into a massive cavalry encampment in Centerville, where there's about 2,500 members of Union Calvary that are located there. And Ames knows the passwords. He knows how to infiltrate. And he talks his way through there, brings out a horse with another one of the rangers and the two ride back to Mosby's Confederacy. And this is the area of Loudoun and Prince William County. and he makes his own, and then they go on missions.

And Ames is absolutely ruthless. He is a, you know, deserterer. He knows if he's caught. He will be executed on the spot. And he is a, you know, ruthless and disciplined member of Mosby's Rangers that becomes a lieutenant within the command. Yeah, it's interesting the different stories that everybody has. for instance, Ames wants to fight for the union, but doesn't want to fight for, necessarily for the abolition of slavery in the southern, because the emancipation proclamation was about ending slavery in the southern states, but not the border states, right?

Right. And so there was kind of mixed messaging there. And then you have somebody like Mosby, who was anti-slavery, but pro-Virginia, pro where he was from and it's like well like this is where I'm from this is this is my country and then what have yeah there's this nuance and then what happens is moseby in aims and moseby's small band of about 50 some men pull off one of the great special operations missions in history and they directly infiltrate through union lines through centerville all the way to Fairfax where there are literally thousands of union soldiers to kidnap a union general.

And they, you know, using Ames as the point, who knows all the passwords and code words, he's able to talk this column through. And they're wearing raincoats and in some cases union uniforms. And they infiltrate, you know, dozens, you know, over 20 miles through union lines, go through checkpoints, and then they come into General Stoughton's headquarters. Initially, they were trying to find a guy named Percy Windham, who turns out he was in Washington, D.C. at the time. And they find General Stoughton, who is barely, he's asleep, he's sleeping at the time. And Mosby comes in and says, and wakes him up and says, have you ever heard of John Singleton Mosby?

And General Stodan, rather, you know, barely awake goes, yeah, Have you captured him? No, it is he who has captured you. And he slaps him on the rump and, you know, forces the guy to get dressed. And then they infiltrate back into Mosby's Confederacy with prisoners and horses and Bill. It's incredible. It's incredible.

And it's Lincoln that says that, you know, I don't really mind so much about losing a general. It's all those horses, which are $50 apiece. Mosby also Like the Union Regiment It was a bull run He also kind of Like today we think of modern sciops Is you know

Pretend you know Building up mock tanks And pretending that there are forces In a certain location that we don't have But Mosby was doing this too By like signaling commands to units That didn't exist and things like that right Absolutely

There was deception operations at the beginning, but Mosby was also the master of psychological warfare and intimidation. He would, when people, when a unit of cavalry would enter the Confederacy, his fear and intimidation factor was like sky high. He would have like one or two guys as kind of shadowing people. So everybody was on their edge of their seats. They were constantly thinking that the place was swarming with the Confederates. In some cases it was. And if they came in there with about 100 men or 200 men, they were toast, because he would find a way to ambush him. And Perman Melville wrote a great poem that captures this fear that people had as they entered

Mosby's area of operations or Mosby's Confederacy. And then he also, like when he captured the general, he took a piece of coal out of the fireplace and wrote, you know, on the top of the mantle, I am Mosby just to you know drill to drive home the the intimidation factor Yeah

It's interesting you mentioned Melville I mean at 44 years old 13 years after he had written Moby Dick Which apparently nobody read at the time He you know Ends up in the Civil War Just a fascinating tidbit He

Yeah Moby Dick is not really a commercial success At the time of its release 10 years before the Civil War. And he becomes an embedded reporter. And he goes in with one of his friends, Charles Russell Lowe, who's a member, who is a leader

of the Second Mass Galvary regiment who are dedicated Mosby hunters. And they go on a mission. And the mission is to, you know, to find most of these Rangers. And it doesn't pan out. In fact, they're ambushed

a couple times and then they eventually, you know, leave the area. He captures that fear of what it is like to be like a union calverman going into this place, which is forbidding. And then can you tell us about the partisan Ranger Act? Yeah, this is a situation where the Confederacy is trying to put some order around its irregular units they're forming. Much of them form in the area of Western Virginia. And it's in this sort of no man's land where a lot of the supply lines for the Union Army, they go through it. That's the B&O Railroad, for instance, and it's a major, major roads.

Route 50 goes through there. Today's Route 50, which has been a major route or eight. But these have to be guarded by the Union to provide some, you know, get supplies from the Midwest. to Washington, D.C. So they have to, you know, constantly garrison the area and deal with the partisans that are there. And it's the South that harnesses these irregular units. And they try to put some discipline and order into them with the Partisan Ranger Act, which puts them under the general auspices of the Confederate Army.

And it works out to some degree, but there's still, the South is kind of, is constantly fighting with the idea of this being ungentlemanly dishonorable, etc. And it's in this crucible that the Partisan Ranger Act is formed, and then it's later, there's only two units that remain in it, and that one would be Mosby's Rangers and the other would be McNeil's Rangers, who will also get into a little bit in this book. They capture two terminals towards the end of the war. but the south and the north are racing towards asymmetric and regular warfare, unconventional warfare,

because the south in particular realized that they never had the manpower to match the north. So they have to come up with innovative and novel means to change the course of the war, and they do that with many of the operations that they perform. But are you saying that both governments, the north and the south had a difficult time with it because they considered it like ungentlemanly? It would be more than the south. It was it was more generally in particular, which he understood the predicament that the south was in. But he's constantly of two minds.

And this is, this becomes an issue. you know, thankfully becomes an issue because he doesn't fight the war in the most efficient manner, which would have been partially conventional and then partially irregular, which would have ground down Union forces because they never had enough

manpower to occupy the entire South. It was never their their additional goal was always to destroy the southern armies. Yeah. I mean, and then we just look at today's modern insurgencies and how they are nearly impossible to defeat if they have the support of the population.

And the entire southern population, almost the entire southern population, was behind the war effort, even as the war went on. And it would have been very, very typical at the South gone, you know, pull on unconventional to defeat it. It's very interesting. So in this book, there are a number, like the chapters tend to be very short. A lot of them are very cool like battles and things. For time's sake, because I know this is going to be a long show, we have to skip some of the battles.

But can we talk about, first off, can we talk about how these Rangers, whether they were the Rangers or the Scouts, how they went in armed. because when we think of the Civil War, I think, you know, we think about mussel loaders. Yeah. You know, muzzleloaders and things like that. Please pull out any props that you have, any visual. I have two. In both of these weapons were used by men in the book,

we have the cult. There's a Colt Navy, which is 36 caliber, and then the Colt Army, which is 44 caliber these will put you down and these were the weapons of choice for both the Jesse Scouts and the

Rangers, but the Rangers in particular. They got rid of their swords or sabers and their whole up their their their memo was always swift violent action

to get the bulge as they call it to get the edge and it was violent action with the pistol and they were you know these guys were cracked shots at you know five five yards 10 yards and they were just

deadly effective and they would have a you know they would have multiple pistols on them and in some cases they had also carry shotguns um Blazers scouts on the underhand which were manhunters

were armed with the machine gun of a civil war Spencer carbineer, in some cases, the Spencer rifle. And this is, you could, as fast as you could pull the lever on this weapon, you could, you know, put a cartridge in the, in the chamber and fire around, around 20 rounds per minute, maybe more, if you're more skilled, compared to, you know, a musket loader or musket rifle, which could, you know, maybe three or four rounds,

if you're lucky, if you're well trained. Yeah. This is a, you know, massive innovation. I thought it was amazing though the descriptions and the first-hand accounts like I said I don't know how many personal journals you must have gone through but the first-hand accounts of these guys going in with basically four or five pistols and and they they would close with the enemy as if it were a cavalry charge but all their fighting would be with pistols at that range it's crazy as the Wall Street Journal put it you know this this put you there in the saddle. Oh, sure. This is not some sort of

textbook on regular warfare. You are immersed in these gun battles on horseback immediately. And that's what you feel. You feel the smell and the sight of what it's like

here in some cases, of what, you know, the country was going through, but also this small group of men. It's the Jesse Scott story that is my through line. And then it's the intersection of the secret service and then live in most of these rangers as they interact with these men but yeah this stuff is pretty powerful it's incredible like said it's a non-fiction book but because so many the accounts of the battles are in firsthand it reads like fiction it reads like an action

novel in some parts um and just what these guys did and on both sides just their their fortitude um and straight up like manliness. I mean, just, holy shit. So, like, stuff they went through. This book is, this book for me, I just wanted to be the camera that inserted itself back into 1863, 1864, 1865, and let the voices of the men through their own words, through their diaries, letters, pension applications,

tell the story of what it was like. And it's, you know, it's terrifying in the sense that, you if you really go back to what they were sort of experiencing, you don't know what direction this war is going to go. Yeah. Even in 65. Nothing that we know today. I mean, in today's lens, it's like it's preordained.

The North had all this stuff. It was going to have, no, absolutely not, especially if they would have went, regular warfare, unconventional, and they almost influenced the, they do influence the election of 1864, but they're unsuccessful, it would have changed the course of history. Right. So grapewood farms, can you tell us about grapewood farms? Because that's... It's one of my favorite stories because I've written 13 books in every one of those books

has found me in one way or another. And grapewood farms is one of those examples. I'm driving around Northern Virginia. and I spot a roadside sign. It's a flaking silver sign that, you know, has been put up in the 50s. It says the grapewood farm engagement. And I'm like, what on earth is that?

Right. And I stopped the car, went over to the sign, and I read it, and I immediately wanted to know more. And I spent the whole day, two days, actually immersing myself in the grapewood farm engagement. And this begins. sort of my journey into this book. Grapewood Farm engagement is in May 1863.

It's where Mosby uses a mountain howitzer. This is a small gun that they can tow behind the horses to destroy their first locomotive. It's at Catlett Station, where it's, you know, several miles from Grapewood Farm, that they have to infiltrate an entire Yankee cavalry encampment. and they set up at night and then they they basically take the track off they disable it and they have they have wire they've attached to the the rails and as soon as the train comes they pull wire and it you know the locomotive goes off the tracks and it's at that point that they fire the mountain how it's and the shell lands directly into the boiler of the train which has this massive explosion of steel

and metal and then they raid the train and everything inside of it. And, you know, within minutes, though, the entire area is alerted to Mosby's presence. And these men are riding for their lives. And they ride down country lanes like Rogue's Road today. And they ride to the Greatwood Farm. And it's here. It's kind of like this funnel of death.

It's a natural avenue. And they set up the mountain house or at the end of the farm. and the cavalry, Ian Calvary is charging forward pursuing them and they hit them with the mountainhounds or multiple times. But this is a very deadly engagement for Mosby. He loses many men. He's almost captured his hat shot.

Yankee Ames is involved with several men. And then, you know, it's quite interesting. There were foreign observers that that joined Mosby from around the world. And one of them was a British veteran, a Galbraiman, that had fought in the Crimean War, you know, the charge of the Light Brigade. And he joins Mosby.

And he has his saber, which everybody's like, you know, dude, the saber really is not. It's anachronistic. You really need some pistols. And he's engaged. And he's hacking away, slays several Union Calverman, and he's mortally wounded and brought off to a place called Greenwich, which is fascinating because Greenwich is, it's got somebody from Britain that has a large farm there, a plantation,

and the guy flies the Union Jack. And this guy is brought into Greenwich because he's a, you know, he's British, and he is mortally wounded and he's cared for for several days but eventually succumbs to his wounds and I'll never forget

I found his grave at Greenwich at the cemetery at Greenwich the church's there and his grave is there and I remember looking down on his headstone and it has there was a Ranger tab there somebody was commemorating

and more a lot of his again yeah it's interesting because you mentioned Mosby almost gets killed and Ames was involved. But the thing I distinct remember was Mosby knew how to use a saber. He just didn't carry one, right? Didn't carry one and they also looked at as obsolete. They knew that the pistols that they had, these colts were way more effective than any kind of saber than they had.

It just wasn't. Sorry. Some of the Rangers had them, but they generally never used them. One of things you mentioned in the book was that Mosby was actually pairing, like, Union Sabres with his pistol. That, you know, he was still skilled enough to be able to parry. And then Ames comes in, like, four-on-one with his, with a saber, and kills two of the guys and chases two others off. This is one of the earlier skirmishes that these men are involved. in, but yeah, they're highly trained in hand-to-hand combat.

Yeah, it's just crazy. This stuff is epic. The battle scenes in this book are epic. Yeah. Can you tell us about Lieutenant Richard Blazer? You've talked a bit about Blazer's scouts, but can you tell us about the man himself? Richard Blazer is one of my favorite characters in the book. He's in Ohio, and he's older than most of the men.

He's 34 years old. And he's given command of a independent, the scouting unit, which are part of the Jesse Scouts. And their mission is to hunt Confederates. And Blazers is just incredibly interesting. He's a flop on the parade ground. His uniform is, he's got a button off and his shoes are always scuffed. He's got one eye that kind of wanders off to the left. And he's just moody sometimes.

But he's got this, like, amazing sense of counterinsurgency. And he's just able to find the enemy. He's a natural at it. He's also a great leader of men. He's out front. He's always leading from the front. At the same time, he's compassionate with vanquished foes. Just absolutely fascinating character.

And he is initially just a citizen soldier. He drives a riverboat in the Ohio River, near Gallifalus, Ohio, in Southern Ohio, on the Ohio River. And he's called arms, and he is just a ruthless manhunter of Confederates. It's highly effective. And so one of their first sort of operations or focuses was hunting Thurman's rangers. Correct? That's right.

the setting of where Richard Blazer and Blazer Scouts form is in what's now West Virginia and it was West Virginia at the time and they have all these guerrillas kind of running around and nobody's taking care of them so they create a special group

to just hunt Confederates and Blazer is tasked with hunting the Thurman brothers and they're kind of the they're tough, they're stout enemy but they are the JV opponent compared to John Singleton Mosby and it's sort of a warm-up

for they're very effective on neutralizing these guys in the crags of Appalachia this is in the area of Thurmond, West Virginia it's named after the Thurmond brothers, one of the brothers, who after the war,

founds the town, which is a railroad town that is also kind of one of the most, it's a violent place. It's kind of like, you know, anything kind of goes, place. But it's also a guy that never signed the oath to the union. He was an ardent confederate to the grave. And it's in this area of the gorge that's down there in the river, the Gali River that these men operated, some of the most treacherous area in the United States and beautiful as well.

Pat, just to interrupt for a second, if you have a light in the room or a lamp, now would be a good time. Yeah, I was just going to do that. I mean, right back. Sure. So, guys, listening out there, please take a look at our Patreon. There's a link down in the description. You subscribe for just $5 a month, and you get access to all these episodes ad-free.

So please check us out. We really appreciate all of you guys, you know, who support the team house and keep this show going. I'm going to hit that like also. Yeah, hit that like button, guys. Share, subscribe, all that good stuff. We're on the solar. There we go. All right.

Looks good, Pat. Thank you. No problem. So skipping a little bit ahead, can you tell us about Cole's Cavalry and Harper's Ferry? This is, you know, really a. Mosby has a number of nemesis that just sort of show up. And I want the reader that read this book to understand that pretty much anything that Mosby faced,

even some hardened union units that were like the second mass cap, they annihilated. That's why when Blazer shows up, I want the reader to understand just how daunting the task that was because Calvary is one of the units that sort of pops up it's an area it's a unit that is native um to Maryland the area in and around harpery these are farmers that join the union cause that believe in in the union and they form um cole's cavalry it's called it's under the their leader's name his name is Cole and um they operate near um their base camp

if you will, is it near Loudoun Heights, which is not far from Harper's Ferry. And there's a, I wrote a great article in Breitbart called Crimson Snow. And Coles Calvary entered Mosby's Confederacy in December 1863, and they conducted an op, about 100 men, and they were nearly annihilated to a man. And it was at that point that John Singleton Mosby wanted to, wipe out Coles Calvary from the face of the earth. So he organized his companies, and they went up towards, on a long ride, and this is late December, 1863, close to 1864, up towards Loudoun Heights to basically wipe out Coles Calvary's

base camp. And they have really one of the, one of the extraordinary characters that I bring. into this book is a guy named of Stringfellow, who's this wiry spy slash scout that joins the Rangers. Stringfell is 90 pounds. And in one of his ops, he literally dresses as a woman to infiltrate a union party to get intelligence. But in this case, he's helping lead those of these Rangers to wipe out Coles command.

and things go wrong from the start. They attack a little too early. Coles men are alerted to the threat, and they fight back. And they take many of Mosby's men with them in the melee. It's a fierce gun battle in the middle of the snow that's on the ground in early January. It's a very, you know, frigid place. But within this vortex of battle and the small skirmish between these two groups, you know, there's a glimmer of humanity that shows up that I think is really, you know, fascinating.

Yeah, please. Because acts of humanity are really an interesting recurring theme in the book. And please tell us about what happened. Yeah, I think that's one of the really important points that the book makes. there's deep division within the country and hatred. But, you know, this American spirit, the spirit of humanity still pervades. And that's the case with Loudoun Heights with a guy with a soldier by the name of Paxton, who is one of the, he's one of the, he's, he's a confederate with most of these rangers.

that several months earlier, his family had taken in a wounded federal calvinan that was severely wounded. And they tended to his wounds, and they brought him back to life, to health. And then they, you know, allowed him to go back to his command, which was in Coles Calvary. And they asked for one thing that if their son had ever been wounded, who was in Mosby's Range, that he would be given the same care and treatment. And it's on the crags of Loudoun Heights that a favor is returned. And Paxton is gravely, mortally wounded. And he calls forth the family that, you know, of the man that they tended to.

McNair. And they return the favor. And they tend to back. And, you know, it's just, it's, it's, it's very, you know, heartwarming to sort of the, the spirit of humanity that pervades this, you know, bloody conflict that claims hundreds of thousands of American lives. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's, and it's, and there, there were, there were villains. There were villains. But, but generally those villains were not accepted by, by the actual military. know, they were gangs or they were sort of aberrations within the military. Yeah, one of them operates near Loudoun Heights as well, and his grave is located there. It's one of those things that you can go visit Loudoun Heights. There's actually a cool winery only a couple miles away. And then there's right near the winery is the grave of John Moberly, not Mobley,

Mowberley. And Mowberley is this teenage kid that's a psychopath that just is just totally vicious. He tortures prisoners. You know, there's, he's act, he has a gang basically of villains that are cutthroats. And he, one of the things that they found out is he captured union prisoners and then, you know, displayed them out on rocks and put rocks in their arms and legs so they couldn't move and then they would just perish by wild animals or thirst and hunger um that's not the way that moseby generally operated he was operating um treated prisoners quite well in many cases that the men that were gravely wounded especially the officers he became friends with after the war. One is a fine example is a New England officer with the first Vermont cavalry,

which operated a place called Miskel Farms. This commanding officer was, his command, they outnumbered Mosby's Rangers two to one, but at Mistkel's farm, the Rangers got the bulge with their Colts and annihilated his command. And he was gravely wounded. And Mosby made sure that he survived. And then he becomes the governor of one of these New England states and then there Mosby and he are are very good friends after the war yeah yeah it's like said in Mosby there were a couple other stories in there about

Mosby like taking care of people so let's talk about Kilpatrick and Dogran please this is the so-called Kilpatrick Dahlgren raid, which is a

watershed moment for the book, because this is a raid that is deep into the Confederacy. Kilpatrick, his nickname is Kill Calvary, because he's reckless with his men, doesn't care about their lives, at least in

some opinions. And he leads a decoy force. Well, A dog friend who has one leg, and one leg that's wooden, is leading the main force to infiltrate Richmond itself. And their goal is a decapitation mission. They're going in to kill Jefferson Davis in his cabinet and potentially burn Richmond. And he has orders from Secretary of War Stanton. Actually, he keeps the orders in his wooden leg.

And they, the mission is, is a perilous one. And it's, it actually is a disaster in many ways. The Home Guard mobilized near Richmond, and they are able to warrant Dahlgren's effort, and that they capture him or kill him. And most of his command is killed or captured, and they find the orders. and this creates a firestorm within the Confederacy. And the Union initially or immediately disavows the orders, claims that they're fakes and forgeries. And, you know, modern analysis has proven that that's not the case at all.

They were real. And this was a de-cat mission. And what it does is it creates a chain of events where the South responds in kind. And the South responds in kind. through their Secret Service, which is a department of dirty tricks. It's men and women that are really skilled in unconventional warfare because they have to be. They are, you know, war is a compression of time.

And this compression creates innovations. You know, in different departments within the Confederate Secret Service are fascinating. You have kind of queues department. in James Bond of gadgets, one of the Raines brothers who develops the gunpowder works in Augusta. They're explosive experts. The other is in Richmond

and he's building time bombs. Also coal torpedoes. These are just pieces of coal that are hollowed out with gunpowder. Other landmines, things that are very novel for the time. along with a lot of other gadgets that are really quite unique and interesting. And, you know, it's also exceptionally for its time, maybe 100 years ahead of its time,

there's an entire aspect of the Confederate Secret Service that are involved in election interference that are directly influencing, trying to influence the election of 1864 by, I mean, we get into it a little bit later, I guess, but they take a million dollars in gold and they go to Canada and they're there to buy influence and they, you know, conduct covert operations to influence the war and the election of 1864 because they realize, generally in particular, the rising movement within the Democrat Party at the time is known as the copperheads or peace movement. And this is the most powerful wing of the Democratic Party. And it's the Confederate Secret Service that is influencing them directly and plying them with gold. Now, would you, I was trying to remember in your book if you actually drew the connection, but if you didn't, you can tell me if you did or didn't. And is it your opinion that this attempted decapitation of the Confederate president, the attempted. assassination of him. Do you feel that that led directly to the assassination of Lincoln?

I feel that it led directly to the very, there's tons of evidence on a very elaborate, well-funded, and financed scheme to kidnap President Lincoln. And I provide, I furnish all the evidence that's out there on that, which also includes John Singleton, Mosby. And it's, there's a massive infrastructure in place to, that is directly triggered by the Dogren, Kilpatrick, Great, to respond in kind. And they recognize that Abraham Lincoln is the most ardent supporter of the Civil War. and it is hoped that, you know, the Confederates hope that if they are somehow able to apprehend him, that they might be able to change the course of the war.

So an elaborate operation is set in motion at this time. And I bring about the various steps. And then what happens is as the war progresses specifically in the last weeks of the war, that mission changes. from kidnapping to assassination. And the actual orders from the Confederate government to John Wilkes booth is impossible to prove directly. But there were other missions that seem to suggest

that that's exactly what the intent was. Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting to just wonder about because nobody will have to know if that attempt on Jefferson Davis's life had not occurred, if Lincoln ever would have been assassinated. Yeah, I think it may not have been. I think that the South was very careful on, I mean, one of the reasons why they disband the Partisan Ranger Act, and they only keep Mosby's Rangers and McNeil's Rangers, It's because they're very, very much aware of the Iowa war that they are raging and that they are influencing.

They don't want atrocities. They don't want situations that negatively impact things. And I get into another thing that I get into is, I mean, the favorite, you know, my favorite quotes in the book is the democracy influences the press. And that's a direct quote from one of the men in the book who's an operative, within the Confederate Secret Service based in Montreal. And he recognizes that many or almost all of the Northern Papers' editors are Democrats. And they hate Abraham Lincoln, virulently, and the war.

So they're plying, one of their ops is to ply them with gold to write negative articles about the Forever War and how it will never be won to erode northern morale. And all of Mosby's ops, you know, are also, you know, taking all the wagon trains and all the other things. It's all part of this, this I.O. War that's going on. But this is a forever war that the Union will never win. And if you transport yourself back in time to the summer of 1864, you would believe that, especially when you realize that Juble Early almost takes Washington, D.C. Right. Right. So I'm curious, and this is skipping way ahead.

Like we have a lot of other stuff to cover until we get there. But I'm curious, why wasn't the Civil War of Forever War? Because you had the Confederate Secret Service that was very good at espionage and intrigue. You had the press on their side. You had people like Mosby. You had Lee, like if they would have faded into the South, it would have been a nightmare for the Union forces. Why wasn't it a forever war? it was a, it was not a forever war for several reasons.

And one of them has to do with the Jesse Scouts. And it's the Jesse Scouts, or Lincoln Special Forces, that first, at five forks, they participate, Lee's retreat from Richmond two to three weeks ahead of schedule. It throws off the timetable in all of his planning. because they identify some of the weak points in the line, which they then are,

they then even accompany General Sheridan as he leads these charges. And this is a Titanic battle. It's then the Jesse Scouts that are vital in Lee's, the Lee's retreat to Appomatics on multiple occasions. There's evidence that they may have misdirected the supply train, and the supplies that were supposed to head to Amelia Courthouse, which were loaded with food. Instead, Lee opens the boxes to find a bunch of uniforms and casons that are useless to him.

Army's marching on empty stomachs. This is vital. Sheridan then is using the scouts to misdirect Lee's Army. They capture several generals. and then he also orders two pairs of scouts to follow the train tracks. One to Danville and the other two, Lynchburg. And this is incredibly important. It's never been really brought out.

But these men then seize these supply trains. And they order them to stop. And then Custer's cavalry then captures them. But this is a absolutely vital, crucial link. to the entire campaign because Lee is about to lead a breakout from Appomatics. There's a fight there. John Gordon, who's his best commander at the time, tries to break out. They can't find the supply trains.

And it's at this point. They're out of supply. They're hungry. They can retreat north and get to the Piedmont area, Blue Ridge Mountains. many of his commanding his lie lie urge lee to follow Jefferson Davis's direct order to conduct guerrilla warfare

and it's at this point that Lee does something that is monumental and changes the course of history he says no I want a better America I want this you know the daughters of the South

to be able to survive this war and thrive, I won't be going into the mountains and acting as a gorilla. It does something that is unexpected against orders and he decides to surrender. And then what's vitally important too is that General Grant does not treat him as a traitor. He treats the army with respect.

And this is titanic. They're treated, they're rolled rather than put in some sort of POW cage. They're disarmed with their long arms and cannon, but they're allowed to keep their side arms and their animals. And they're allowed to go home. And this creates the beginning of America coming together, which is just tremendous because other, there's still several hundred thousand Confederates in the field and multiple field armies that are still fighting. Right. And they follow the example of Grant and Lee, which is just incredible. So that's one.

If Lee had decided to fight a guerrilla war, you know, it still could have been going on. But, I mean, you talked about like these moments of humanity, and it sounds like both the north and the south in this instance, found one, where Lee is like, I will not inflict like that. This is, David, this is. David, this is what is needed today. It's true statesmanship. People that look at our country first, rather than their individual interests. Right.

Incredibly important. Yeah. But, one, Lee, not wanting the civilians of the South, even though the civilians of the South, as you said, were on the side of the, like, they supported it, but it would have ravaged the South. But militarily, it made sense. Jefferson Davis's strategy was totally correct.

Right. Militarily. Right. And they may have, they may have prevailed because it would have been a forever war. Right. And then also, I mean, look at what did happen. Right. I mean, that's another story.

But nobody wanted to occupy the South because they never had enough men. Right. It was too big. Right. And then you had Grant and people like him saying, hey, good game in a way. Like, I don't want to. Totally. I don't want to.

What you have is. You had your fun. Yeah. Well, but, but like it's over. You're not being tried for treason. You're not going to be hung. You're not going to be like we fought like we fought. You're surrendering.

That's it. What happens is there is a stacking of the arms. And they decide to take Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain of the 20th Maine, who's now a brigade commander at the time, to lead the ceremony for the north. And John Brown, Gordon, is leading it for the South. In unrehearsed, Chamberlain salutes, which was not part of the playbook,

but it happens. And the Union soldiers are also ordered to be silent, you know, as these Confederates are, you know, stacking their arms. There's no jeering. There's no, hey, we just won this big victory type of thing. It's about respect. And that pays huge dividends, you know, as the,

there's still months of war still left. I mean, people think about Appomatics at the end of the war. It's not really the case at all. There's still massive Confederate field armies out there that will fight on until, you know, early June. Yeah. I know we skipped ahead. But, you know, it just kind of led to there.

It's interesting because you showed us the Spencer rifle and how game-changing that was. You know, it's a, is that a center fire or rimfire? It is a, it is a, it's rim fire. Okay, but it's, it uses a cartridge, regardless. It uses a cartridge. The stock of it has a cylinder, and it's loaded with, with numerous cartridges that are brass. And this was the first of its kind. Right.

Lever action weapon, and it's, you know, revolutionary. And the Department of War, for the Department of War, the union, the chief of ordinance general James Ripley, he called it a newfangled gimcum, um, gimp crack, like a gimmick. Yeah. They, they were not in, in favor of the technology, the game changing technology of this weapon, which could fire, you know, upwards of 20 rounds per minute. And, you know, a total game changer.

You know, the one that I'm handling right now was, was carried by a guy, a jury. an immigrant who was a sergeant by the neighbor Richards. It was with Fifth New York Calvary. Same as Yankee Ames, his command, and he fought Mosby. But, yeah, they didn't believe in it because they felt that the soldiers who waste ammunition, which is ridiculous. But they also had more of a practical purpose to it. They thought it would overburden the supply chain that they had.

And they, you know, I mean, the bottom line is they could have made modifications. that would have changed the course of the war. So, more people were armed with it. I'm sorry. So you mentioned some of the, uh, the information war and the campaign tampering.

I, I, I kind of want to wrap all that up all together, uh, when we get to the, near the end. Because there were, there were a lot of things going on that Lincoln could have lost the election.

Like, it, it was, it was it was for for lincoln his his famous quote was you think i'm going to be beat i know i'm going to be beat and beat bad he was absolutely convinced in the summer of 1864 that he would lose the election because what happened is jubal early's army had reinforced lynchburg only a couple weeks from now or a week from now, I should say. And they stopped

General Hunter's army and the Justice Scouts who were with them, who then instead of retreating towards Washington, where they could defend it, they retreat to West Virginia, which then leaves the entire Shenandoah Valley open to

a Confederate invasion. In Juval Early's army of 15,000 strong marches towards the nation's capital. And And, you know, it's amazing. I was just, you know, they weren't sure where he was going. They thought he would go to Pittsburgh, maybe Baltimore.

This is a failure on Grant's command. He had pulled out the Seventh Corps in other units to reinforce Petersburg. And really, Washington's defenses were empty. It was pathetic. Many of the forts there, which were tough and, you know, resilient in their walls were unmanned. And it's, you know, the Jubilee's army is marching, and there's also a special operation involved in this.

They have Henry Gilmore leading a diversion on the B&O railroad off to the west. And then an entire, you know, brigade of Confederates are marching towards Point Lookout, which has a Confederate POW camp that's, You know, there are literally about 12,000 Confederate soldiers down there. Their plan is to free them. There's even a naval aspect of this special operation where they would supply them with arms. And it's at a place called Monocacy where the author of Ben Hur, Lou Wallace, defends the nation's capital.

He realizes that it's all about buying time. And he is burning precious hours. delaying with his tiny core at monocacy and jubal early is held up for about a day but they then march to to Washington and they are they're nearly able to take the nation's capital and uh i have my my my great-great-uncle is one of the men of the 150 of the ohio that was a hundred days man and he was thrust out in front of this giant juggernaut of the confederate army to somehow stop it. And what happens is the 7th Corps suddenly arrives at the Washington Navy Yard.

It is marching as Jubilee's Army is marching on Fort Stevens. President Lincoln is there. He's on the parapet. Somebody yells to get him down. And Jubal Early is only hours away from a crushing victory that would have changed the course of the war. And, you know, weeks later, they then burn Chambersburg, Pennsylvania. And the entire war looks lost in many ways. Yeah.

Because Washington's almost sacked. Chambersburg is burned. All of the union offenses have stalled. There are tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of union desertions. The war is the Forever War. Completely unpopular. The I.O. War is raging. Mosby is is tearing up the place

he captures 300 wagon trains of Philip Sheridan's army which triggers then in another event Blazers's independent scouts are armed with the Spencer Carving and told to hunt the most dangerous men of the South and I don't know for their and how does that go when they start hunting

Mosby's Rangers it goes well initially at a place called Myers Ford, Blazers Independent Scouts, which are only about less than 100 strong, slam into an entire company or more of Rangers and annihilated, and they capture many of the men. You know, there's some great stories in there. Myers Ford is on the border of West Virginia and Virginia. They catch these, a company of Rangers by,

surprise or more. And many of the men, before they do that, they literally capture a still of illegal liquor. Some Confederates are in the wilderness in the mountains nearby, you know, creating some alcohol. They capture the still.

These guys are hopped up on like an apple jack or whatever it is. And then they charge in and they get the bulge on most of these rangers than nearly annihilate the entire company. It's incredible. Yeah, so like a hundred guys route of 200

basically, like twice their size. Basically. And then is this when Sheridan Scouts comes on the scene? What happens is that right at this

moment, or not far from it, the what happens, happens prior to that is that Sheridan is moving out of the Winchester area, specifically, he's moving out of Harper's Ferry in a place called Hallstown, which is nearby, and they're moving the army into the valley and disaster strikes. Mosby, it's called the Great Berryville wagon train raid. He annihilates two or three hundred wagon trains, and it causes it

a massive disruption. Sheridan is then forced back to halt down and they activate Blazers scouts and it's at this point that Sheridan is wanting better tactical intelligence.

He realizes he just he almost got wiped out by the fact that he doesn't have proper scouts out in the field. And he asked my main character of the book he asked the command, send his oldest scout and archibald roland junior who is from pittsburgh

pennsylvania shows up and he's this 19 year old uh strapping youth and phil sheridan is this you know young he's diminutive he's about five four um just like looks up at this guy and goes you know i ordered the most seasoned and experienced scout and he said says, sir, I'm it. I have been in the Shenandoah since 1862. And Archibald Rowan is one of the principal characters that forms what's then become, the Jesse Scouts then become Sheridan Scouts. And Sheridan really weld these men into a strategic force, unlike his other commanders, that will lead his armies to victory and ultimately help win the, ultimately, help win the war. So, you know, and you talk a lot about the trade craft that they used, how they

leveraged human, and one of, like, one of the great stories about human and some very courageous people goes into the third battle of Winchester. This is an epic turning point of the Civil War. The election is disastrously going towards Lincoln. I mean, nothing is going right. And they have a glimmer of hope with the Battle of Atlanta. But in the north, things are still going poorly. Sheridan had just lost hundreds of wagon trains. He had been pushed back.

Grant is urging him to attack. Doesn't do it. But he asked, Sheridan asked General Crook, who's one of his deputy commanders, if he knows anybody that's in Winchester that might be helpful. And he says that there's a woman by the name of Rebecca Wright. And they need to find a way to get to Rebecca Wright. And it's the Jesse Scouts and their trade craft and the fact that they're able to make, you know,

they're able to recruit people as informants or as, you know, to do their work, one of the people they recruit is a slave by the name of Thomas Laws, who's one of the great unsung heroes of the Civil War. Thomas Laws

will be executed if it's found out that he is collaborating in any way with the union, but he agrees to help at great risk to his family and to his life. and he agrees to deliver a message to Rebecca Wright from the Jesse Scouts.

And they work with laws to then deliver the message, and then the Justice Scouts work with Wright to find out if she has any intelligence that might be useful at all. And she comes up with a nugget that changes the war. She finds out that an entire brigade of Jubal Early's aren't. army is retreating to Richmond to reinforce Lee's forces in Petersburg. And it's with that intelligence that General Sheridan decides to attack at the Third Battle of Winchester. And they attack, and Jubal Orly's actually outnumbered, but does well initially and propels much of Sherman's attack or Sheridan's attack and is near.

merely winning the battle, but it's the Jesse Scouts that changed the course there again, tactically. And then they play a huge role as Jubile Early is retreating to a mountaintop fortress. It's the Jesse Scouts that find a pass that allows them to get behind the Confederate forces and then attack again, and it changes the course of the war. And Jubal Early is routed initially, and retreats into the valley further. It's amazing. It's not the end of Jubilee's story at all. Yeah.

So one of the things it really got me about Thomas Laws and Rebecca Wright was Rebecca Wright lived in a split household. This is a situation that's absolutely fascinating. She's in Winchester, Virginia, which is a southern town, which, oh, by the way, changes. his hands over 50 times during the American Civil War. It's constantly contested during the war. But like

many families during the American Civil War, it's a divided family. And, you know, her mother is an abolitionist, but her brothers fight for the South. And they, you know, they make the decision to risk their lives

and put it all out there. And that's extraordinary. Just like, just like Thomas Laws. So one of the things, I thought it was, yeah, one of the things, because you have, you draw on so many like first-hand sources and letters and journals and things like that,

I thought it was, you know, this is, to me, it's so her, what her mom said, is so courageous and so heroic because Rebecca was unsure what she should do because she knows if she gets caught, she'll die, right?

And so I turned to my mother for guidance, not taking my sister into my secret for that I knew would be fatal because her sister was Confederate. And so she says to herself, I will pay no attention to letter. She showed it to her mom

saying the rebels will kill us if they should find out. And her mom says, that is true. but men are dying for their country and thy life and my life may be needed to. I would not persuade thee. Settle it with thy conscience. Go to their room and give thyself to prayer.

And it's just, you know, it's like, yeah, people are dying. We might have to die too. It's an amazing moment that is just, you know, it's exceptional. It's what's in this book over and over. and I think it's one of the most powerful stories in the book. I visited her grave, but I also visited Thomas Law's grave, which is right outside of Winchester, and I encourage everybody to go there and visit the graves of some of these men and women,

which, you know, laid it all out. And I've had it's an exceptional story. So, you know, you mentioned it's not the end of early. And, you know, you've talked about it. about how looking back on it, the Civil War, it was a given. But when you actually drill down into it, it's any moment. And I think that Cedar Creek is a perfect example of, you know, a micro look into the macro of any given moment, it's anybody's game. Absolutely, David. It's It's a brilliant story that I don't think many people realize.

This is right before the election and only weeks before the election. The Confederates plan a bold counterstrike. Jubal Early reconstitutes his army after the loss at Third Winchester. And it's John Brown Gordon, who is really a genius for war, who had never been through form of military training, goes atop one of the mountains nearby, and he looks at the, he pans the situation, and he finds the exact chink in the Union armor,

and Philip Sheridan's armor, and how to defeat Philip Sheridan. And he plans on going around the mountain and attacking a weak point in the Union lines. And, you know, it's looked at, It's almost an impossibility, but he figures out exactly how to do it. They walk the side of the mountain. They walk the side of the, you know, where the river is,

and they surprise the Union forces in the middle of the night, and they ban it many, many men. It's a Jesse Scouts that, again, could have changed the course of that battle. They were out that night, and they found the – They rode within the Confederate ranks as they were attacking or moving in towards the attack. And then they rode immediately back towards the Union Command, which was in Middleton, Virginia. It was in a plantation there. The houses still exist.

And it was General Crook who was in charge. General Sheridan had left towards Washington for a meeting with Grant. and they immediately warned Crook that there was a pending massive offensive. Crook claimed that he had other intelligence and didn't believe it, dismissed it. The men were sleeping and then they were surprised, and it was a massive onslaught by Juvalurli's rebels, you know, men in gray that pats upon these Union soldiers as they're sleeping in their tents and then the ban it, many of them. And it's a rout initially.

It's a disaster. The union line is falling back. And this is at a crucial time during the election where everything is online. And suddenly they hear, you know, bugle calls, and they think that another core is coming up. And that core is in the form of a single man. It's Philip Sheridan, writing from Winchester. on his horse, Randisi. And he rides, it's the ride of his life.

He's riding towards his union lines, which are collapsing, and he rallies the men. And the Confederates under Early are a pause. It's called the fatal pause. Gordon is, like, convinced that if they attacked, at that moment they would have destroyed the, the entire, you know, Confederate, the entire Union Corps, but it wasn't so. So had, so first off, had Crook listened to his scouts, they wouldn't have been hit by the Confederates.

Then, but they were hit by the Confederates, and had early not paused, they possibly would have destroyed that portion of the Union Army. And then along comes Sheridan on his majestic horse who is basically like, hold my beer and watch this and rallies the Union troops and turns the tide. This is the ride that saves Lincoln, as it's called. It's one of the most epic stories of the Civil War that I don't think many people have heard about. I think it's absolutely fascinating. I'm, you know, it's, it's extraordinary that one man, you know, changes the course of history by rallying his entire army and then they rout early and they pursue him. And they nearly destroy his army. It's like the charge of the Rohram.

Right. Anyway, thinking of Tolkien, Lord of the Rings. It's incredible stuff. Yeah. And it's true. that's what, you know, what's so amazing about American history is this is true stuff. I mean, truth is better than fiction. Now, you know, you've talked a bit about

how there was humanity and both sides were trying to conduct a humane war when they could, or a lot of people were. But there was also a cycle of violence. Custer wasn't that great of a crime. guy, it seems like. No, I mean, his, he was pretty ruthless. And there was a cycle of violence that's created when the great Barryville wagon train incident has this cascading effect in many ways.

It creates blazer. It activates Blazers to go after Mosby. but they also, they go after many of the rangers that are in the area. Specifically, they go after the safe houses that these men are employing and the families of the rangers. And they burn them to the ground. And this creates a cycle of violence that's just, you know, quite epic. They kill a bunch of rangers. And then the rangers take matters into their own hands and kill many of these so-called house burners.

and there's a one of these mansions still exists it's a tree-lined you know long driveway towards the house and it's here that that most of these men killed many of the union office

many of the union house partners so to speak but this creates a cycle of violence where one side is executing the other whenever they capture them yeah And, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, in 돼 story. Yeah. So when you say that they killed Rangers, they didn't kill Rangers in

combat, they killed a bunch of Rangers after they had captured them. Correct. Uh, and then, uh, and then, I know that Mosby, they killed him first, it, he killed them at Front Royal and then they started to, and then they started to, uh, and then they started to burn the houses of known rangers. And then this created this creates an absolute firestorm. Right. And then Mosby wrote Lee.

I mean, this is kind of wrote Mosby sort of adheres to the letter of the law and that he actually wrote Lee and said, they killed X number of our guys. I want permission to kill X number of their guys in return. Yeah, he recognizes

that the only way to break the cycle of violence is to actually conduct violence. And today I was, I was at Rectorville, where Rectorville is home to what is now a train depot from the Civil War. And it's a stride, a track that's still active. And this little sleepy town is where they took maybe 20, or 30 union prisoners. And it was here that they had a lottery of death. And they drew straws.

You know, every man was given a straw. The short straw would mean that you would be one of the people that would be executed in retaliation for what Custer had done or what the Union Army had done. And the first set of straws didn't go well. there was a young union drummer boy that was only maybe 12 or 13 years old that drew the short straw and a union officer stepped up and said this is not right you know and even moseby recognized that this isn't right and said okay we're going to have a redraw and they drew straws and that officer that, you know, stepped in, drew the short straw. And he was one of the men that was

selected for execution. And then they brought these men off to, you know, Ashby's Gap, which is near the opening of the Shenandoah Valley. They were in Rector Town at the time. And it's, you know, really incredible story. There was one of the prisoners had a mass ring and you know one of the codes of conduct for mason's is if you display a ring that you're supposed to you know protect that person and that's exactly what happens montjoy who was a one of the officers in moseby's command then um he had a prisoner as well as he was coming in from another mission and exchanged that man for the guy that had the masonic ring and you know they they tried to execute these men and then you know

there's a lightning storm going on in the middle of the background. And it's here that they, you know, some extraordinary things happen. One of the men escapes. He's able to free himself from his bonds. And he gets away. And, you know, another guy, there's a misfire involved and he gets away. they execute three men and you know then share then uh moseby sends a letter to to philip sheridan that you know if you don't stop this i've already i've already sent thousands of men to richmond

that were captured by my command i will execute more of your men and it's a clear message that sheridan listens to and and bleeds in and then the execution stop yeah it's it's it's uh pretty amazing. Let's see here. So I think we're getting to the point where we can get into the nitty-gritty of the Confederate Secret Service, the attempted decapitation

against Lincoln, Seward, and Andrew Johnson. Well, this all begins as a mission to kidnap the president. And it's quite elaborate. and they do a reconnaissance of the White House. They try to figure out where the weak points are,

where President Lincoln doesn't have a guard, and they do a mock run. And Mosby is involved in all this because they recognize that in order to kidnap the president, they will have to bring him over towards Maryland first and then bring him across the Potomac, into Virginia

and you know there's an extraordinary thing that happens Mosby divides his command and sends three or four companies to Peninsula

across from Maryland and you know the excuse has always been that it's the wintertime and they need need to forage and they needed, you know, way to provision them. It's all nonsense. They were there as a security force that once Booth and his accomplices had captured the president, they would

act as a screening force to then take the president into, you know, the mountains or then further south. And Mosby deploys, you know, half of his command almost down there in the northern neck of Virginia to accomplish this mission. And they first, you know, they first try to kidnap the president. It doesn't go well at all. He's not around. And it then progresses. And the war, you know, there's appomatics. And, you know, various things take place. And one of the things that I bring out in the book is really an untold story until unvanquished primarily is that one of Mosby's final missions was to escort a man from the Confederate Secret Service from the torpedo branch, which was they were specialized in time bombs and explosives to blow up the White House.

and I um you know this is it's quite documented I bring out all the documents on on how this man you know move from which Richmond joins Mosby's command and then they're sent on a mission to ostensibly capture a bunch of mules it makes no sense at all it's a pure cover story that's you know nonsensical in many ways um but it's really a an effort to infiltrate this man into Washington, D.C., who has various time devices and, you know, explosive devices that can, they're able to get the black powder in Washington at any point and then destroy the White House. And I bring out all the documents that, you know, they prove all this. So he, he gets rolled up. that guy actually gets rolled up the um it's the eighth Illinois right

that attacks that element of Rangers and they arrest that guy correct uh Arnie but meanwhile we have

uh John Wilkes Booth uh we have Powell and I can't say his name Arsinaud the gentleman who was supposed to grabter Andrew Johnson, but check it out. Right. He is Aserat.

Aserat. Okay. So you have... You know, what most of us have all been told is that John Wilkes Booth is a successful actor that suddenly, you know, in 1865, is a magnet for all these, you know, sort of strange. guys and they concoct this plot to kidnap the president first. But what you see is that there's this massive infrastructure to first kidnap the president. And what's not clear is who gives the order to execute the president and decapitate the rest of the cabinet. That's unclear.

It's, um, but if you take it. the mission to blow up the White House as evidence of the intent of Jefferson Davis and his Secretary of State, it seems pretty clear that their plan was to kill the president.

And it's then, I mean, there's an extraordinary spy character in here known as the French woman. I mean, there's layers upon layers of really fascinating characters that are both men and women.

And she is a woman of the South from North Carolina. Her husband is at war. She's bored sitting at home, and she decides to join the Confederate Secret Service as a courier. And she speaks perfect French. And she's sent into Montreal, where she delivers messages from Richmond to Montreal, to the Confederate Base Camp, Secret Service Base Camp that's there.

and it's suspected that she probably gave the order from Montreal or Richmond for Booth to execute the command for the decaditation mission. And then things move forward very rapidly. And so that mission has three points. It's Powell is going after the Secretary of State Seward. Booth is going after Lincoln. and the other gentleman is going after Andrew Johnson. And it's all supposed to happen on the same night, correct? Exactly.

It's all supposed to happen at the same hour and the same night. And things move pretty quickly and well. Right. So we know what happens to Lincoln on that night, right? Like Lincoln, that's the night that booth. No controversy there. On what night? As far as, no, what happened to Lincoln that night.

But we know that Lincoln gets shot that night. Right. Now, to sort of back up everything that, you know, Patrick has in his book, Seward, the Secretary of State, what happens to him that night? He is nearly executed by Lewis Powell. And what's fascinating about this story is that Lewis Powell is an agent of the Confederate Secret Service. and most historians and most authors credit him as being a member of Mosby's Rangers

that just deserts the command and that is preposterous quite frankly and I provided evidence that shows that his intent was to be part of his kidnapping mission and it also show all the Confederate safe houses that he was part of and all the links that he was part of

And he was handled as soon as he left Mosby's Confederacy. What makes the story unique is that Lewis Powell at a place called Cable Town on November 18, 1864, captures my main character, Richard Blazer, and sends him to Richmond. And he's not being sent to Richmond just to send Richard Blazer Richmond. He's also being sent to Richmond to confer with his other handlers in the Secret Service. And it, you know, it frames his mission to then meet up with. First, his secret service handlers who were part of the Confederate Secret Service Signal Corps in Baltimore, which operated a safe house, and then they handle him and they move him towards John's Wilkespoot. And John Serrat, who's also an incredible member of the Secret Service.

He's not some guy that just shows up. He's one of their best agents. He's also a key member of this group. Yeah. So can you tell us how Powell got, like, the planning that went into getting him into Seward's house? It's really quite interesting. he becomes sort of sick at the time. And he is, his, his, his, his, his, um, his legend is that he is a, or, you know,

Trencraft is he is, he's delivering medicine to help the, you know, the sick secretary of state. And he has, you know, the, the right, um, box and everything else. Because one of the members of the conspiracy was a pharmacist. an assistant. So they had everything planned out, and he shows up at the house, and they're like, well, hold on a minute. We didn't order any extra medicine.

And he's like, I need to come into the house. And it's just mantra over and over and over, kind of puts his foot in the door, and then he gets in. And he's an exceptional ranger. He's an excellent athlete. He's also a guy that's extremely charismatic, talks his way through,

but also thrust the person at the door of our side, and he makes his way to the Secretary of State's room. And his pistol, which is a Remington, not a cold, misfires, you know, at point-blank range, and he throws that aside, and he starts to stab the Secretary of State, you know, multiple times. And he's, you know, practically a pincushion, you know, with Powell's dagger. And he escapes, booth escapes, and the third man who's supposed to kill Andrew Johnson, who has a history of being a bit of a coward, ends up getting drunk and not even trying to do the deal.

I want to just take a moment. I haven't read your book yet, Pat. I really want to, after listening to all this. But I want to point out that as you say, we have been taught that John Wilkes' booth is kind of a lone wolf. Yeah. But now you're talking about what three? strikes in one night. Yes. It's impossible to believe

that that's not a coordinated effort. Not only that, if you look at the infrastructure and all the evidence, in multiple, like, in sworn affidavits, there are, you know, there are affidavits that place booth in Montreal

at the Confederate Secret Services headquarters multiple times. There are affidavits that where Booth says that there are, you know, hundreds of men that are supporting me. I mean, it's, the evidence is overwhelming. Yes. Overwhelming. Absolutely.

This is not, and then you also look at the fact that the money that this took in the organization. Yeah. It's not a lone wolf at all. Mm-hmm. And then you ask why. Why would they make it out to be a lone wolf situation? and that's an interesting story in and of itself one there is a new military tribunal where these men are tried

lewis powell keeps his mouth shut he is a good soldier he is an operative he does not finger john stil of moseby at the very last minute before he is is hanged he tells his spiritual advisor about his ties to confederate secret service and how he is an operative that's largely dismissed. Most importantly, the Confederate Secret Service's last mission is to taint the trial. And they basically, the star witnesses for this trial are men that are groomed by the Secret Service, that have ties to the Secret Service, and provide testimony that destroys the entire case. They perjure themselves deliberately on the stand, which blows up the entire case against the Secret Service. Now, there is one other element that's very interesting to this case, and that is John Wilkes Booth kept a detailed diary of his operations.

On one page, it talks about how their entire plan was to kidnap the president, and it talks about the link to Montreal. all, but 13 or more pages are missing. What's fascinating is that Secretary of State Stanton kept that diary hidden during the trial. It was not exposed. It was exposed later. And President Johnson was impeached because he tried to get rid of Stanton. And one of the reasons why he tried to impeach him was because,

One of the reasons why he was so upset is that he did not know about Booth's diary. And, you know, it's interesting. One theory is it was determined that the Confederate Secret Service was involved in the assassination. And this came out in the series Manna. There was a little bit of a throwaway line and said, well, Secretary Stan, what would happen? If it was determined if the Secret Service was involved in the assassination, we would have to, fight a second civil war. And that is very crucial.

It was no desire. Do you want to have a corrupt peace or a just war at that point? There was a situation where there was a demand for reconciliation. Yeah. Right. To move on. Right. There was no desire to look

back and, you know, what was going on. And it's also... And then that taints the entire reconciliation. That's another story. Right. But also, looking at it from a strategic point of view is if Lincoln approved

the attempted murder of Jefferson Davis then where does that put the north? Like if they if all that starts coming out if this is simply if this is tit for tat then

what does that mean? Like you know Yeah the moral high ground is seated and that's why the north when the the Dahlgren raid takes place and they find the paperwork in in Dahlgren's leg they vehemently deny it. General Mead goes down or actually contacts General Lee directly and says this is disinformation. It's a false story even though it was a lie.

Yeah. Yeah. It's there's so much good. I mean, there's so much good. stuff in this book, Patrick. I highly recommend anybody, everybody, please buy and read this book. I promise you will love

it. There's just amazing reading all around from big stuff like this to little operations of, you know, guys slipping through enemy lines and it's just really

amazing stuff. It is now 10 o'clock. We've been going for two hours. I'm going to leave this up to you, Patrick, if you want to get into Mexico, because that's, that's a fascinating thing. Sure. Okay. David, this is my favorite chapter of the entire book. Okay.

Because this is the untold civil war. This is America's first proxy war against the European power. And this is a fascinating story that resonates today. In 1861, France used statistics to determine. that the United States would have 300 million people by 1960. They were absolute, this is great power competition in 161. They wanted to stunt or shunt the power of the United States and its influence. They make up a scheme to, you know, to invade Mexico.

The excuses that Mexico hasn't paid its debts and everything else. the the french army comes in with 50,000 strong with some other european powers invades mexico and now suddenly you have Mexico is occupied by the french in strength and it is an it is aiding the confederacy this is a sanctuary for the confederacy because there's a blockade around the United States, but blockade runners are able to basically go through that through Mexico.

And it's near Galveston, that they're able to load their supplies, and then by wagon train, they're able to go up into the Confederacy. And the South is being aided by France in many ways. And this is ongoing

in 1864, 1865. And it's the Jesse Scouts that are once again called upon to change the course of the war. And they are our regular warfare experts. It's Sheridan that goes down to the border that does a number of demonstrations. They do special ops. But most importantly, they are funneling arms and weapons and training to the insurgency that's fighting the French. And it's fascinating, too, because.

It's a full circle moment in the book because many of the major characters like Jubile early are fleeing towards Mexico where they're aiding Maximilian. And, you know, there are Confederates that are going over there in mass. The Klosskin who burns Chambersburg to the ground. It's it's rumored that he was on Maximilian's bodyguard. There are colonies of Confederates that are eating Maximilian and his ever. efforts. And it's the Jesse Scouts that are there that are running arms, along with the hero of Washington, Lou Wallace, who's one of the first men to run arms to the revolutionaries that are in Mexico. And this is just a fascinating story that it's the small band of men that are changing

the course of that proxy war through their efforts because the American government does not want to become officially involved in fighting against France, a great European power. Right. And so, like, this is like true covert operations where America doesn't want to be seen as involved. We don't want to be seen as like fighting France. We don't want France to know that we're fighting France, but we're funding and fighting a proxy war. This is a threat to the United States, a direct threat. We have a European power that is on our doorstep, but we don't want to become necessarily involved with a great power, which is France.

And the final battles of the Civil War occur here. There are thousands of Confederates that flee into Mexicans. co and it's really my my favorite part of the book honestly because it's Henry young who's my great character in this book and young is he takes command of sheridan scouts after the destruction of blazer scouts and he is you know extraordinary he's five-foot-four reckless daring he's a man made for war that sees no fear and Sheridan has this

incredible bond with Young and Young is the instrument that allows Sheridan Scouts to grow into you know a true you know weapon that is able to lead Sheridan's army's victory and it's at Mexico

that Young is so important and he's leading the Jesse Scouts the remnants of these men that have fought through the entire civil war into Mexico and they are aiding these warlords there in Mexico and this is

opaque. This is a dirty war and there is a situation where Young is directly supplying one of the warlords and he disappears along with scores

of Genesee Scouts and it's one of the most powerful scenes in the book we don't know what happens to Henry Young, who's this great hero. And, you know, like a true covert warrior, he does his duty, and it's almost like he denied that he's ever been there. And there's some thought that he might have died in a Mexican jail by one of these warlords, or he was ambushed.

But the government sort of denies any responsibility of who he was. and he mysteriously disappears along with these Jesse Scouts. And that's what I dedicate the book, Henry Young, and also the man that's on the cover of the book, Sergeant Joseph Prith, who's part of Blazer Scouts,

who has killed in action, and he's buried in an unmarked grave somewhere in Covington, Virginia. But it's about these covert warriors that just do their duty, they serve their country, forgotten. And the final scene in his book is where Henry Young would have this amazing correspondence with his mother. Every week he'd write a little letter. And the letter stopped. And she would wait

every week for the stage coach from out of town in her little Rhode Island town, waiting for her son to come home. He never comes home. What happened to the Jesse Scouts? We don't. With many of these men, they're annihilated in Mexico. But the entire, but some remain.

Did the unit go away? Yeah. Well, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a final mission here that I'll get into. There's two.

One, General Sheridan and the Jesse Scouts are also involved in strategic intelligence. And specifically, the transatlantic cable that connected Europe and North America was laid in the 1850s. And then, you know, storms disrupted that communication. 1866, it was reactivating.

And General Sheridan, brilliant guy, realizes that France is communicating with Maximilian through cables, through that. friends at lennon cable in code and he cracks those codes jesse scouts and cracks the cable of the cable and they're able to determine what the french are about to do this is a you know this is you can argue is the beginning of mass surveillance because all communication runs through those cables and you know it's fascinating that general sheridan is way ahead of his time but But the final mission of the Jesse Scouts is to save Maximilian. And that's most, I mean, this is the true spirit of humanity, right? Maximilian is eventually vanquished.

The warlords prevail. And he is captured. And James White is sent to deliver a message from the State Department and the United States government. He goes into Mexico. He infiltrates Mexico. goes by steamboat and then rides for, you know, miles to get to the main encampment of the warlord to deliver a message. And that message is a message of mercy. The State Department wants to save Max Cillian's life.

And he is, you know, goes through this entire odyssey. But eventually they do their own thing and they ignore. James White's message to save Maximilian. Pat, I would love to, I mean, this is a little bit like off topic, but I'd love to ask you a question about, you know, your process, your research process and all this like archival work that you've done. And I know that that's a very like, it's a lot of hard work. It's a long slog, right? But in, I know there's probably maybe a couple eureka moments along the way. but I'd like to ask you about what that process was for you in researching this book

and if there was any, you know, any of those magical moments for you as this went along. There were just many, many magical moments for me. I was, this was the book every morning I was excited to write. I was finding something new and finding a new direction. You know, I initially wrote the book that it was only going to be Blazer and Mosby. And then I found these amazing intersections. And I found the connection between Blazers scouts and the Jesse Scouts and everything sort of blossom from there. And I was constantly learning something new.

And that's my goal for every book that I write. I'm not necessarily. I've written 13 books now and eight books on World War II and almost three on the Revolutionary War and multiple other wars. I'm always trying to learn something new.

And I just, this book was a constant odyssey and it was so interesting and neat is to be able to go to these places and visit them. and to take in this history to find, you know,

artifacts like Nathan Fogg's Cold Army that was used at the Battle of Aldi against Mosby. You know, it was an incredible journey to just experience all this stuff. And then to realize that this is all, what's old as new, it's impacting our lives today. All we have to do is, look at the, whether Iran is doing with their proxy forces or how China is trying to influence

Taiwan, all of this is interrelated and important. Out of curiosity, because you've done, you've done two books on the Revolutionary War. And, you know, you've written about the OSS, you've written about Rangers, you've written about so many special operations units. But, you know, you've written two books about the Revolutionary War. how was how was this different how was special operations in the civil war different was it more sophisticated or is it more evolved how was it different than say in the revolutionary war it was definitely more sophisticated and definitely more involved i would just say that america has a rich tradition

of a regular warfare beginning before even the american revolution beginning before even the french an Indian War. And it's kind of like a sign curve. We develop these tactics and techniques, and then we forget them. And it's, you know, I saw this when I was in Iraq. You know, much of this counterinsurgency strategy was developed in Vietnam,

and then it was forgotten at Iraq. It's always this reinvention of the wheel. It's not the, you know, it's not a learning organization, so to speak, which is fascinating in many ways because we're always behind the, in many cases behind the curve, and that's a dangerous thing for a nation to be in when we have adversaries which are right now on the rise and on, you know, on the march.

Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah. Let me get to the questions here. Patrick, thanks. Thanks so much. Like, it's, again. This has been great.

I really appreciate you guys. I cannot recommend this book enough. Like I know we've been talking for, you know, over two hours, but we haven't done the book justice. Which is fun because people can go out and buy it and read the additional information. M. Corbyn, thank you very much. Sorry. Suggestion on a resource for looking into my region's history regarding the French and Indian War

as well as the war of 1812, Tippecanoe and Tyler too. I guess he's asking for suggestions on resources, for like firsthand resources, or like direct resources for the French and any war as well as the War of Asia. Sure. Most of these, most veterans

of American wars, especially the American Revolution, they were, if they survived the war, they submitted a pension application. And this is the case for the War of 1812 and other wars as well. And this is what I've tapped in the unvanquished, as well as Washington's, immortals and the insensibles. It's the great oral history of these wars that have never been used in many cases. What it is is a situation where you have,

have to prove that you were a participant in this war. So you have to go down to the local courthouse and swear under oath what you saw and did. In some cases, I was just, I was at the Battle of Bunker Hill. In others, it's a very detailed essay of what they did and saw. So there's, I mean, the first step is to go to ancestry and then just start to look at the different links that are out there. There's everything from find a grave, which is pretty good as well, where if you've got an ancestor and their grave is out there, there's a lot of times there's a lot of different tags. There's newspapers.com. There's different things that you can start your cursory level research and then go from there. That's fascinating. So those pension, the pension request, where would people

find those. A lot of times they're online. But if they're not, in some cases, many of the states are not online, and they are located at the National Archives. Okay. And they are located specifically at Archives One, which is located in Washington, D.C.

Patrick, how much, you know, because you and I both knew Carl Sastari, who, you know, had a fascination, with the OSS and Fairbair, and he went to the National Archives and found stuff that nobody had found before. How much time would you say over the course, not just this book, but all of your books,

have you spent at the National Archives like undigging stuff that wasn't really cataloged? I've been doing this for almost 32 years, and I've spent decades at the National Archives. and Carl was, as you know, it's where we met. Yeah. You know, I remember, I wrote a book called Operative Spies and Sametors, and I wrote a book, I wrote a chapter about spy training,

specifically the hand-to-hand combat that Fairburn had, you know, instilled upon his OSS recruits. And I'll never forget, I ran into our mutual friend, Mike Cross, and we're going through OSS records and then he said to me you know you've got to go to this dojo that actually practices

the OSS fighting technique and you know that's where I met you and that's an amazing story but yeah I've spent a lot of time at the archives and it's where all the books that I've written it's about primary sources

in many cases it's about sources. In many cases it's about sources that have never been published. Yeah. And so for people who might not be aware of it, in the National Archives, there are a lot of resources that you cannot find online

that have not been cataloged. None of this stuff has been, I mean, I shouldn't say none, but most of it has not been digitized. So it's, you've got to define the paper record. and if you the OSS files most historians have not touched it because it's daunting yeah and it's it's a very tough dig from a from a research perspective it's like drilling for oil sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't yeah and it's it's not categorized properly in many cases and it's it's

cubic miles of paper records that have never been digitized. But it's an entire hidden war of World War II. And I've written multiple books on the OSS. I'm actually the official OSS historian and a director of the OSS society. Yeah, it's fascinating to me too, how all this ties back to Donovan, you know, or what you wrote in this book, how you tied that back. I see here. Corbyn, thank you very much. Also, are those original uniforms behind you?

They are. One is a Marine Raider P-42 that was worn by Marine Corpsman from the Second Raider Battalion, and then the other is a Union uniform from the first mass cavalry who was in charge, It's in the book. He was in charge. He was one of the 90 men that charged hybrid. It was a suicide mission. This is during the Appomattox campaign.

And then there's an M-42 jump jacket, which was attributed to a special service for a spectrum. Even though they weren't supposed to wear those, but they were one guy that did. R.S. Thank you very much. Fairfax represent. Andrew, thank you very much. I'm glad to see Pat O'Donnell back on the Team House.

His last episode is one of my favorite episodes of the show. Yeah, we love having you on, Patrick. And I appreciate you guys. I appreciate you guys. I appreciate the long friendship that we've had, Dave, and Jack. You know, it's really cool. It's been a minute. You guys are true professionals that really, you know, bring out, you know,

some unique, that nobody else has. Yeah, I mean, it's so crazy also. I mean, we met ages before this podcast. Like you said, like beating each other up in a dojo. You remember, and then you also remember me coming back from Iraq. Yeah, yeah. From that old incident.

I'm still waiting for you get that D&D game started. Also, M. Corbyn, thank you much. Did you ever meet Matthew A. During all your time in the NARA archives? I did That I I remember Matthew Vade and You know

I can't really say much more about that But I remember running across him Along with the other archives that were there Um Dee, do we have anything on Patreon? No Okay Um

Patrick Did we miss any I mean I know we missed a lot But do we miss any significant things that you wanted to talk about that I failed to cover? No, I really think you guys did such a deep dive that was really exceptional and captured the essence of my book, which I can't say enough about this show and how you conducted the interview. It was extraordinary. Pat, tell people where they can find the book and where they can find you.

the book is a best-selling book. You can get it on Amazon right now, Barnes & Noble. It's also at the front of the stores at Barnes & Noble on the Father's Day table. It's a great Father's Day gift. It's pretty much anywhere you can buy a book. And I've been thrilled by the absolute reception of the book from the readers and the reviewers. and I'm just you know for me I'm just very grateful to everybody that's participated if uh if you're listening to this podcast or watching the video on

YouTube there's going to be a link down in the description to the book if you want to go pick it up the book is the un-unvankwished um and you know while you're at it pick up one or two of Patrick's other books because all of his books are phenomenal Yeah. That's very kind of you say that. Thank you, Dave. I really appreciate your expert opinion on that. And it means a lot to me. I mean that. We hope to have you back on when the next book comes out. I mean, is there anything you want to tease out to our listeners about what the next project is? Let's just say that I'm gearing up for our nation's anniversary of the 250th anniversary of our country. our country. And I'm writing a very important book about our founding, which is really more crucial than ever today as we go forward because it's about our founding principles and who we are as

Americans. And I think that that's critically important in today's day and age. Yeah. I'll leave it at that. Yeah. It's just, I think that, you know, your ability, there are great historians and there are great authors and you are both. And I don't think that is super common. Thank you, David. It means a great deal to me. So. Really.

And you guys were there. That's the difference, too. You've been there. You've walked the walk. Makes all the difference. Yeah. So, um, I'll just. just ask you one quick question because as a historian who writes, I guess, but you're also an author, but you're a historian.

Did your time with the Marines in Ramadi? Did that change your perspective on the books you write and on the way you look at history? I was with the Marines in Fallujah. Yeah, sorry I said Ramon. I was with first with Recon. And then I was a 3-1 Lehman company. And it had a tremendous impact on the way that I write books. Because it's one thing to write about military history. And it's another to experience it at the very sharp end to clear houses,

to be ambushed by Chechens, to pull out a Marine that's been shot in the head. You know. And then to go. go home and then meet all of the four Gold Star families that lost, you know, great American heroes and try to explain to them what happened in Fallujah. You know, it's a powerful experience that I will never forget. And it impacts my writing every day. Yeah. Yeah, I was just curious because not a lot of, I think, historians or academics have that opportunity.

you know, to embed like that and to experience like that. Yeah, I mean, it was in a situation where I was behind the wire. I was house to house, hand to hand. Yeah. It was brutal.

Yeah. And it's an experience I'll never forget. And it was 20 years ago. We'll have our reunion at Camp Pendleton with the Gold Star families and then also with the, you know, some of my, great brothers that were there

that I've remained friends with. Yeah, it's a life-changing experience, but a great experience for me because it reaffirmed by faith. Yeah. And many other things. It crystallized things. It was powerful.

And for, again, I recommend this book. I recommend so many of Patrick's other books. But if you're really interested in that story of him embedded with the Marines and Fallujah is phenomenal and it was We were one, right? We were one?

Yeah, it's it's we were one. It's, it's shoulder to shoulder with the Marines that took Fallujah. Yeah. Which was, is on many, many common on screen list. Yeah. It has required reading for the Marine Corps.

And this is a artifact of the Battle of Fallujah which I don't think I could ever right now because this is in their words as the battle was going on or immediately days after and it's all the raw feelings and emotions it's it is a powerful book yeah of eight best friends to go into battle and only three come home yeah yeah so folks out there we will be back on Monday with Jita Bakshi, CIA counterterrorism officer, and then on

Friday we'll be back with a Ranger in Special Forces NCO Sergeant Major, so I hope you guys will join us for that. Patrick, thank you so much. We love your honor. I love you too. Thank you for having me. This is something I've been looking forward to for several years since our last meeting. You're always welcome. I hope we don't have to wait another three years, Pat. Well, six years.

Yeah, yeah, three years. This is great. This is great. Have a great night. Have a great night, everybody. Thank you. Cheers.