The Team House - What Went Down in South Korea w/ Lt. General Chun | EYES ON PODAST

Episode Date: December 13, 2024

Today were joing by LT. General Chun, he breaks down what went down in South Korea 10 days ago when President Yoon declared Martial Law.Find General Chun here:⬇️https://youtube.com/@inbumchun?si=58T9mpLctbYgtO86Support the show on Patreon:⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseFind Jason here ⬇️https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-lyons-666873316?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_apphttps://bsky.app/profile/bgsilverback73.bsky.socialFind Andy Milburn here:⬇️https://twitter.com/i/flow/login?redirect_after_login=%2Fandymilburn8https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewmilburn2023https://amilburn.substack.com/https://www.amazon.com/When-Tempest-Gathers-Mogadishu-Operationshttps://bsky.app/profile/andy-milburn.bsky.socialhttps://open.substack.com/pub/amilburn/p/journal-of-a-plague-year?utm_source=app-post-stats-page&r=emo6q&utm_medium=iosFind Mick Mulroy here:⬇️https://fogbow.com/https://www.loboinstitute.org/https://x.com/MickMulroy?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthorhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-patrick-mulroy-31198b52/https://bsky.app/profile/mickmulroy.bsky.social#southkorea #martiallawBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Eyes On. And today we're taking a bit of a departure from current affairs in the Middle East. Then we're turning to Korea. And we're very, very excited to have as a guest, Lieutenant General June, formerly of the Republic of Korea military. But General Tune has a very interesting background. D, you'll be interested to know that he spent four. four and a half years, almost five years in New York as a kid before attending high school, hence is perfect English. Awesome. And then after joining the military, Richie McQuire, after joining the military as a newly fledged second lieutenant won one of South Korea's most prestigious awards for bravery in 1983, which is, as all of you know, is outside what we think of as combat, you know, the history of combat and on the Korean Peninsula. It's very interesting incident. We're going to ask the general to talk

about that later in the episode and occurred in Rangoon during a North Korean attack. And then Lieutenant General Truin went on to have a distinguished career after that. I know that's a cliche to say, but she really did. He was part of the Rock U.S. Combined Forces Command. He served with the Korean Special Warfare Command, has commanded at every level to include operational commands in both Afghanistan and Iraq. In Afghanistan, he was involved in a South Korean hostage crisis in 2007. If we have time, we'll certainly talk about that. He headed up the – I'm going to use the –

term rock for Republic of Korea. He headed up the Rock Special Warfare Command, which is, of course, closely affiliated with our own Socom, and has a U.S. Bronze Star Medal, the first Korean to receive that honor since the Korean War. He retired in 2016, and since then has served with the Brookings Institute and John Hopkins University in Washington, D.C. General Tune, welcome to the show. Thank you very much for that introduction. Well, I think before we get on to talk about some of the highlights of your career, we'd love to hear your thoughts about what is happening in Seoul right now. So about 10 days ago on 3 December, the President of Korea suddenly announced martial law. Thankfully, it only lasted for six hours.

No one was injured or killed. But it put a great dent in the Korean image as well as the military were being called in execute this mission. I hesitate even to call it a mission, but it was poorly planned, poorly coordinated, and anybody with any military experience knows that poorly planned, poorly coordinated operations will always result in fatalities. But this time, thankfully nothing happened of that nature. According to the Korean Constitution, the National Assembly had a vote.

They said we're not going to uphold the martial law, and they turned it over, and the president had a couple of hours to think about it, and he recalled martial law. And it seemed like it was going to be just a bad tasting incident, but it's been lingering on even to the stay where the president must take responsibility. What that forum will be, it'll be a resignation or an impeachment. It's still up in the air. But until then, on both conservative and progressive sides,

peaceful demonstrations are continuing, which could become nasty. Now, nasty demonstrations in Korea has not happened in 15 years or more. We demonstrate, but we do it very lawfully. But you know how things like that are. Anything can go wrong. People can get emotional. And anybody who had a bad day could turn a bad situation into an ugly situation. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed, hoping that our democratic system will work.

And it'll make us stronger because now people who couldn't even spell impeachment know how to spell that. In other words, people aren't getting more interested in politics and the value of their vote. So that's where we are now in a nutshell. Sir, you talk about, or you touched on kind of the, some, a couple of the positive aspects of this. And for the benefit of our audience, so I was wondering if you wouldn't mind just touching on some of the, some of the recent history of brushes with martial law in Korea. And then why there are, and then the contrast with what has just happened, for instance, the role that the special warfare commander played in this recent crisis

is actually quite positive. I mean, he essentially refused the orders coming from President Yun, but he didn't have a strong precedent. in recent history with, you know, I'm talking about, for instance, the Guangzhou demonstrations, I think in 1980 and, I mean, demonstrations against martial law all the way up to 1987. So in a way, this is, I'm paraphrasing here, but this is a benchmark, an important benchmark, important turning point in Korea's recent history, and a transition to being a highly functioning democracy. Okay. So first, why does Korea need a martial law? We need a system

like a martial law because only 40 miles from where I live is North Korea with a million men armed to their teeth with now not only missiles but nuclear missiles, nuclear weapons, to threaten the way of life that I enjoy as a free person. So martial law, in case of war, is declared basically to maintain law and order to support the mobilization of the Republic of Korea. And this mobilization in turn will be the engine with which we will be able to execute our defensive plans against an outer end. So that's why we have martial law.

That is the justification for having this system. In order to understand, before I go. So this time, my president identified that the actions of the opposition political party was criminal and that it threatened the integrity integrity of the Republic of Korea as a democracy and as a free nation. That's why he declared martial law. And why he thinks that they are a threat is because the opposition party, because they had

superior numbers in the National Assembly, and with their ability to pass laws, started passing laws intentionally to embarrass the president to get him impeached. To impeach, among others, public prosecutors who was going after and investigating illegal activities of the opposition leader. In fact, they had just passed laws to impeach the public prosecutor. was going to investigate their head of the party. Finally, the opposition was threatening to unilaterally pass next year's budget.

This has never happened in Korea, even during the so-called dictatorship authoritarian times in Korean history, whether it was by bribing or a threatening murder. At least they agreed to a budget. But this year, the opposition threatened to unilaterally pass a budget. And in this budget, they cut all funds that could be used on a discretionary. level. So why do you need discretionary funds? Well, let's say you're on a investigation of a drug ring.

Well, you can't have a budget that says drug ring, you know, hideout clandestine operation. So they put it in a discretionary problem. They were going to cut every one of those things. So this is why President you said enough is enough and this has been going on for two and a half years that's number one but this was a political problem he should never have tried to solve it by declaring martial law which is basically a military solution and it would not have worked now another side to this story is well the opposition how did they get you know superior numbers it was because Because Yun and his administration were so incompetent that many of the middle class voted for the opposition, not because they trusted the opposition, because they hated what Yun and his people were doing. And they were doing some really stupid things.

And so that's, you know, this whole situation was created by, in most part, because of Yun's, my president, You know's own policies and ineptitudes. So we're at a stage where you cannot differentiate from the human and the swine. You know what they say? Never fight a pig because in the end you'll get so muddied up. People will not know which is the pig and which is the human. So in my view, they're all the same. Anyway, right now, President Yun used the main.

used the military to solve a political problem. And I think that was so inept. So that's the root cause. Now, historically, the Republic of Korea was established in 1948. We were liberated by the Japanese in 1945. When 1945, we were liberated. the 38th parallel divided Korea into north and south. In the north, the Soviet Union came in.

In the south, the United States came in to disarm the Japanese soldiers on the Korean Peninsula. The American soldiers at that time had this joke. There are three things that an American soldier hates. One is gonorrhea. Second is diarrhea. And third is Korea. That was Korea in 1945. I mean, we were a backward country.

Our per capita income was like $50 or something. 80% of our people couldn't read or write. And now, in less than 100 years, we're the 10th largest economy. And we now contribute to world peace. And we actually are an active member in the UN. And I must be honest with you. 90% of the Korean people believe it is because of U.S. support. I believe it is because of the American people support, not necessarily our government.

But to many Koreans, it's the same. The American people have helped us by coming to our aid during the Korean War. And even now, tens of thousands. of Americans are on the Korean peninsula to maintain peace and to deter the Korean War. Anyway, in the early days of Korea, 1948 or 1945, just think back what it must have been like. Ignorant, poor people. They were under Japanese colonial rule for 30 plus years, 35 or something. Hey guys, it's Jack. I just wanted to talk to you today about a way that you can help support the podcast if you're not already. To support the channel is to become a Patreon member. So we have Patreon memberships that start at just $5 a month. And when you sign up, you get access to all of our episodes ad free. That's the big bonus for that. I mean, we also do some Patreon bonus episodes for our subscribers. But this is the biggest and best way that you can support.

the Teamhouse channel and podcast if you'd like to. And we really appreciate that. So go out and check us out at patreon.com slash the team house. During those years, the Japanese treated us as subhumans. And so if you were a young man in those days, say in 1920, what did you see of the world? You saw that the Japanese treated the Koreans like animals, and the Japanese were capitalists, and the Japanese were imperialists. So in your mind, you would think capitalism and imperialism is a bad word. At the same time, you heard that in a far, far country called Rosawa, which is Russia, that the evil czar was now ousted and that everybody was equal.

We know now communism does not work. But do we know in 1920? No. So if you think, imagine yourself being a Korean in 1920. Do you think you might have been calling yourself a communist? Many Koreans thought that communism was the future of Korea in 1945 and 1948. And in 1948, when we were established as a republic, we were on really thin ice. There were hundreds of thousands of Paris.

who thought communism slash socialism was the future of Korea. It was only because a man named Isengman, who was the first president of Korea, who was a devout Christian and an American-educated man, he came to Korea with the support of the United States, he was able to establish Korea as a democratic capitalist country. But within Korea, there was a lot of strife, killing and violent strife. And during those years of 45 to 1950 before the Korean War, the North Koreans were very systematic in their preparations because they were under the Soviets. It was a communist dictatorship.

They could control the press, make sure all the labor unions were gone and all the propaganda stuff. They were just masterful at that. Whilst on our side, we had to respect human rights, freedom of speech. And these communists, they took all of that into their advantage. Anyway, within South Korea, there were a lot of communist sympathizers, not knowing that communism did not work. So even before the Korean War, within South Korea, there was a lot of killings.

Thousands of people in North Korea, especially those of landlord dissent or landlords themselves, were persecuted, murdered, and horrible things happened to them under the communists. They escaped down south. Many of their children who had an affluent life in North Korea now found themselves jobless and looking for a cigarette butt on the streets. Can you imagine the hatred that these men had?

They were poor. They were hungry. And now they were full of hatred against communists. So when they were down south, again, a lot of strife. And of course, the conservatives. the capitalists, they used such elements for their own political gains. Between 45 and 50, there were actually South Korean units that refused orders and rebelled. And so there was, again, a lot of murders and killings.

When the North Koreans came and attacked us and nearly conquered the entire Korean Peninsula, and when we went back, it was actually an opportunity to make sure, well, to come to a semi-conclusion about who should be on the south side as a capitalist democratic country. And in North Korea, as a communist country, and of course they call them a democratic state, but as a dictatorship, until the 60s and 70s, the North Koreans had a higher living standard than the South Koreans.

And South Korea, until that time, was under a military-led authoritarian state. So did he say, sorry to interrupt, did he say, until the 60s and 70s? Yes. The North Koreans had a higher state of living standards than we did. So it was very easy for the North Koreans to say, look, communism is working. We don't have any kind of dictatorship like you do

because they have 100% of the people voting and everybody voted for Kim. So there was the proof. It was only until the 80s that North Korean system started to falter. And by the late 80s, North Korea started to be isolated, and Korea became the, it was the start of the opening of South Korea. So we know that Park Jong-he was the dictator of South Korea from 1960. to 1979. Right after him was Chand Dhan Dhan.

Chand during his initial years was the chief of the military when the Guangzhou incident happened. But when Chen became the president, he was the one who actually lifted curfews, opened up our markets, and revamped Korean economy. And by the late 80s,

he was able to open the way for Korea's economy and the Korean system to work as it is now. For an example, most people know that Korea is the most wired country in the world. And the way we were able to do that is because we have all these relay stations and the infrastructure. Well, it was Chun in the 80s

who initially said that this is the future for us. Anyway, so until those years, martial law was required because Korean society was very, very unstable. Imagine it. Until the late 70s, Korean economy or living standards was not as great as North Korea. North Korea used every available means to destabilize South Korea, labor unions, using, you know, fake news.

Thank God they didn't have Internet then, but they did that. Then, of course, the authoritarian slash dictatorships had their own false. They fabricated cases, sometimes executed innocent people. a lot of wrong was done, torture, all that kind of stuff. Not as bad as the Iranians, though. So anyway, martial law left a really bad taste. During the 60s and 70s, 10 martial law decrees occurred. The last one was when in 1979,

the then-president Park Jong-jongi was assassinated by one of those. close associates, a K-CIA director. Anyway, we Koreans have been able to become a very democratic country, freedom of speech, expression, you know, all that kind of stuff. And for the past 45 years, we have been able to live without a martial law. And all of a sudden, this happens. and it's pretty embarrassing. And it's really bizarre

because the whole way that this martial law planning had occurred was there was no planning. So the whole truth is still evolving. But so far, we know that bad planning resulted in the Korean soldiers dragging their feet because they didn't understand what the orders were or the objectives. Although the commanders are coming out and explaining their role,

mainly saying that they didn't know what the whole picture was, they're making excuses. And we still don't know what their full involvement. involvement in this debacle is yet, but it's going to come out. But at the end of the day today, most of the Korean public recognize that the soldiers on the ground are not to blame. And in fact, because the soldiers showed restraint when the civilians were yanking at their rifles, throwing stuff, spraying fire extinguishers on them that the soldiers maintained calm and no fatalities, no one was injured. So the public is applauding the individual soldiers. But the commanders and the

senior leaders in the military are now being looked very closely into their role. And I'll finish there. Yeah, just reading about legislatures pushing their way past soldiers to get into the assembly, you know, to your point about restraint on the soldiers part, certainly it says a lot and it says a lot for, you know, all these young men, women were brought up in, you know, in recent years and and seemed to have, as you said, acted with restraint, which was a saving grace of this. As far as the role that Special Warfare Command played, do you think it was a conscious decision by the commander not to obey orders then? Or is that still unclear? Do you think it was perhaps that he didn't understand his orders?

You know, Andy, I'm human. I'm not the first guy that's going to throw the stone. I don't know what the circumstances was. I feel really sorry for the guy. He's a three-star. All this, you know, comes with a job. When he was initially told, if he was confused, he should have asked.

and when he got the details, he should have said no. But instead, he didn't ask questions. He didn't know the details according to him, but maybe he did. I don't know. He didn't know the details. And so since he didn't know, he couldn't tell his subordinate commanders the details. And they were basically told, go to the National Assembly and block the National Assemblyman from getting inside. thinking that the National Assembly at 10.30 at night would be empty.

Well, there were a lot of people there. And that's the first misassumption that they made. And thank God that they didn't try to prosecute their mission, as stated, because it would have been a bad situation. So the parallels, I mean, at least for our audience, are important because, you know, the question of when to obey, when to disobey orders is one that's prevalent in any military, you know, certainly one's serving a democracy. And I think one of the reasons perhaps that people in the United States are very interested in this is it's not unimaginable. It's not unimaginable that, you know, the military commanders in this country will find themselves in the same position of when to obey or disobey orders.

coming from, you know, from their political leadership. It's a tough. And at that level, at that nexus, between policy and military, you know, military strategy, military leadership is where those decisions get made. And to your point, that's kind of why, you know, that's why there are so few foreign freestyle generals. I mean, and why it is such a tough ladder to get up there. And for those who think they will never be put in that position,

this is a very salient reminder that you can't be complacent about it. Yeah. Another point that I would like to make is the Korean Special Forces that were employed this time has a long history. In the 60s and 70s, they were like a, personal elite force to

execute the president's orders. They were like the Republican Guard. And today, unlike the rest of the rock military, which is 70% conscripts, the Korean Special Forces is 90%

NCO or above, which means they're professional soldiers. So these are highly capable men, but they are not like the Republican Guard of the previous years. So that's the main difference. The main difference occurred because of the 1981 Guangzhou incident,

where the SF as a palace guard was deployed to the city of Guangzhou to quell demonstrations and it did not go as planned many people more than 200 were killed during that that period so because of that the sF has been trying for the past 40 years to stay away from political situations something like this we've been trying to get away and regain our honor uh sort of in making sure that we are understood as the people's army, not an army of an individual. I guess everybody got the word except for my president

and the senior leaders of the Korean military. So during this crisis, obviously North Korea is taking advantage of the propaganda value. Are you concerned that this will lead to at least the temporarily a weakening of the rock military? Or do you think that this is just a storm that will be weathered very quickly? So the Korean people are resilient. I've talked to young officers and NCOs this week. And to my deep gratitude, their attitude was,

sir, we're going to do our job. we're going to let the senior leadership figure this out. So I think 90% is doing their job, especially those looking at the North Koreans. My biggest concern is even now, there are ultra-left labor unions or organizations in South Korea that we know communicate with North Korea.

And the North Koreans are not attacking us with missiles and artillery. But sure enough, they're probably telling their agents here create unrest, discredit the South Korean military, you know, destabilize society, and so forth. And there are so many ways to do that in South Korea. because of freedom of speech, there are more than 5,000 mediums in Korea that is a registered medium.

And people are susceptible to information nowadays. So that's the most worry right now. It seems North Korea Kim Jong-un now realizes there's more than one crazy person on the Korean Peninsula, and he's not taking any chances right now. But I want to tell him that, hey, South Korean military is still on its toes, and then we have our alliance with the United States, so don't mess with us.

And by the way, even their spies and their agents, it might not turn out as he thinks because it never does in South Korea. Yeah, I think it's, to your points or two among the South Korean people, about, you know, three quarters. I mean, it seems to have been such a backlash against President Yun's actions. And by, you know, according to the U.S. papers, at least three quarters of South Koreans now want to see him impeached, want to see him gone. There was a candlelit protest the other night with about 100, where estimated 100,000 people rallying in front of the National Assembly during, during the impeachment vote on President Yun.

So it seems as though, to use kind of a cliche, the forces of democracy there, I mean, this has been a test of them, and they are incredibly strong. to you know so although uh you released i mean north korean papers is saying you know calling it a shocking incident to the puppet yun regime where guns and eyes i'm reading from from something they put out the other day guns and knives of its fascist dictatorship brought havoc across south korea um that kind of propaganda at least to date doesn't seem to be gathering much uh much traction Yeah, North Korea has its own problems. Yes, certainly.

Sir, since we've got a little time left, I'd love to go back to some high points of your career. And that start off with an incredible incident that occurred in 1983 when you were just a lieutenant. I was wondering if you wouldn't mind telling our audience about that. So I was a lieutenant and I was the aide to the chairman of Republic of Korea joint staff. He was accompanying the president of Korea to Rangoon, Burma, and on his way to Australia and to Brunei. Burma was our first stop. The North Koreans used their diplomatic privileges to smuggle in explosives, and detonating devices, and then infiltrated three operatives to assassinate my president.

Only by sheer luck and karma, my president was spared. But 17 of the 18 official party that attended the ceremony at the mausoleum of Aung San, the father of Aung San Suu Kyi were killed. The only person that survived was my chairman, General Lee, and I got the credit for saving his life, which is a little bit overdone, but I guess my country needed heroes. For me, it was a very deepening moment.

A lot of people were killed, and I haven't had much experience seeing dead people at that time, especially people that I knew and that I was talking to three, four minutes before this thing happened. And I know many of you might be able to relate that you ask yourself, why me? And then you ask the ultimate question, what is the purpose of life? And so those questions lingered on. And I also saw that there was a lot to do in my military. So I decided to stay on to make this world a little bit better.

And in that course, there are not many Korean officers, especially in my generation, who can speak English like I can. And I thought it was my God-given duty to help Americans understand Korea. And that's my main reason for appearing here today to help Americans understand Korea more, and vice versa, because Koreans really don't know the United States. When we see a Hollywood movie, I think that's about 90% of our information that we get about the U.S. and now it's Netflix, of course. So you better make some good movies. Anyway, the incident, just think of it, using their diplomatic privileges to try to assassinate somebody else in another country.

It's just North Korea. And they've never really changed. From that incident and on, another thing for me as a military man was you don't know what's going to happen. the next minute. So always prepare. Make sure your men are trained, ready, and equipped. Steel, if you have to,

but make sure your men are ready. Drive them hard, but also make sure that they know that you care for them. And I really enjoy being in command. And I'm even to the state, deeply honored that I was able to serve for 38 years.

And during that course, I have met many, many American officers and NCOs who are really great soldiers, but really decent people. And I really have a respect for the decency that the American people have. General Chun, it's been a great pleasure having you on. And I would love to have you on again.

there's so much more to talk about, certainly with the latest developments with North Korea and Russia, but also, you know, to continue the discussion of North Korea's aggression over the last 40 years. I mean, you saw a very sharp end of it, but just as a reminder to our audience on the American side, that, you know, the Korean War never ended. I mean, it continues. It is, and at times, more times I think than most people are aware, it has flared up into a hot wall resulting in casualties. And the incident of which you, you know, you speak that you were directly involved

is one of several that have occurred since, you know, since the Korean War. But so thank you. Thank you again. And D, over to you. Hey, Andy. Yes. Can I say something before you end? Oh, absolutely. Yes. Yeah.

So at every opportunity, I want to tell my American friends that every American, in my view, should watch Spider-Man 1 and 2 at least three times in their lifetime. Because Spider-Man 1 teaches you that with great power comes great responsibility. being an American in itself means great power. And you must be very responsible for what you do. You cannot act like the rest of the world. You need to be better than us. Secondly, remember Spider-Man too?

Peter Parker, he's being chased by the cops. The villains want to kill him. And finally, Mary Jane wants to break up because she can't see him enough. But the evil forces of the world don't let that happen. This is the karma of you Americans. You will never be able to be safe with the Pacific and Atlantic protecting you because the evil forces will never let you alone. That's why you need to be here in Korea because we are a staunch ally, no matter what. I think we are the staunchest ally in the entire world.

We were in Vietnam for seven and a half years. that. Yes, sir. 25,000 casualties. 5,000 Koreans lost their lives and 20,000 of us lost our arms and legs. We fought because we didn't think it was a just war. We fought there because the United States was involved and you needed our help. So again, I thank you for this opportunity and come visit us.

This thing will blow over in a couple of months. I can't think of a better way to send that message. than those the quotes from the Spider-Man movies, sir. And again, a reminder not, you know, that support continues in South Korea's support for Ukraine, which is a cause close to my heart. So on that note, D, sir, thank you again. That was awesome. Dee over to you.

Yeah, General, absolutely incredible. The General has a YouTube channel, so please take a look at the link. will be in the description as well as the show notes for any of the audio platforms um we'll be definitely keeping a close eye on this space and we'd love to have the general on again andy milburn of course when the tempest gathers his book all the links will be in the description if you want to follow any on blue sky twitter linkedin everything you need to know is down in the description and the best way to support the channel is patreon.com slash the team house thank you guys this is incredible thank you general

Night. Thank you, John.