The Team House - WTF is Going Down in Ukraine? w/ Oz Katerji | EYES ON GEOPOLITICS

Episode Date: July 25, 2025

In this episode, Dee speaks with Oz Katerji, a Ukraine correspondent, about the recent protests in Ukraine against the government's attempt to disband anti-corruption agencies. They discuss the implications of these protests for democracy in Ukraine, Zelensky's response to public outcry, and the complexities of military aid and support from the U.S. The conversation also touches on the nature of protests in Ukraine compared to the U.S., the legislative process during wartime, and the prospects for a ceasefire in the ongoing conflict with Russia.Find Oz here:https://www.youtube.com/@Oz.Katerjihttps://x.com/OzKaterjiSign up to our newsletter here!https://teamhousepodcast.kit.com/Support the show on Patreon:⬇️https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouseNew merch, patches, and stickers! ⬇️https://theteamhouse-shop.fourthwall.comFind Mick Mulroy here: Fogbow ⬇️https://fogbow.com/Lobo Institute ⬇️https://www.loboinstitute.org/Twitter ⬇️https://x.com/mickmulroy?s=21&t=-Ze3F_Ix2vlJ18KFvORTCALinkedIn ⬇️https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-patrick-mulroy-31198b52/Bluesky ⬇️https://bsky.app/profile/mickmulroy.bsky.socialMick’s publications ⬇️https://www.loboinstitute.org/publications/publications-of-michael-mick-patrick-mulroy/Find Andy Milburn here: Twitter ⬇️https://twitter.com/i/flow/login?redirect_after_login=%2Fandymilburn8LinkedIn ⬇️https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewmilburn2023Substack ⬇️https://amilburn.substack.com/Andy’s book ⬇️https://www.amazon.com/When-Tempest-Gathers-Mogadishu-OperationsBluesky ⬇️https://bsky.app/profile/andy-milburn.bsky.socialFind Jason Lyons here: LinkedIn ⬇️https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-lyons-666873316?uBluesky ⬇️https://bsky.app/profile/bgsilverback73.bsky.social00:00 Introduction to the Current Situation in Ukraine01:17 Protests Against Anti-Corruption Agency Changes05:05 Zelensky's Response to Public Outcry10:24 The Role of American Politics in Supporting Ukraine14:14 Democratic Values and Public Protests in Ukraine20:10 Understanding the Historical Context of the Conflict25:26 Government Authority and Democratic Scrutiny During Wartime26:49 Understanding the Ukrainian Experience Under Invasion29:00 The Complexity of Ceasefire and Territorial Integrity31:23 The Role of Far-Right Elements in the Ukrainian Conflict35:50 The Diverse Political Landscape of Ukrainian Fighters39:13 The Misconceptions Surrounding Russian Aggression41:27 The Challenges of Diplomacy with RussiaBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Aizan Geopolitics. I got a special guest today. Oz Katterjee, a Ukraine correspondent based in Kiev. He's got a lot cooking. Documentary called Battle for Kiev that's

available on like all on-demand channels, Apple, Google, Amazon. He's a podcast called This Is Not a Drill, and he's the host of the OK show. So he's a busy man and he's based in Kiev. I wanted to have you on.

Oz, thank you for being here. I wanted to have you on because of what went down earlier this week with the vote to, you know, basically disband the anti-corruption agencies that were supposedly independent in Ukraine. Big uproar. There was protests in the street, hundreds or thousands of people. You were on the street too. I saw a couple of your videos. You're a great Twitter follower to follow.

So people check it out. you want to know what's what in Ukraine. Yeah, give us a rundown. Since we spoke, like I asked you to be on, there's been a bit of change too. You know, as Alensky came back and is proposing a new bill. You know, so there's a lot going on. So if you give us the rundown on that, that would be great.

Sure. Well, I mean, look, I will say one thing. It wasn't so much that they were disbanding these two anti-corruption bodies. It was that they were basically stripping the independence away and giving that to the prosecutor. general of Ukraine, who is appointed by Zelensky. So it would be effectively taking their independence away. And, you know, there were justifications given by Zelensky that there was Russian interference in parts of it. And that, you know, some of the prosecutions were

languishing and never actually going anywhere and so on and so forth. They gave a bunch of reasons. In either case, those reasons didn't wash with the Ukrainian citizens who saw it as an overreach by Zelensky's wartime government. And, you know, it was a viral protest that, like, as soon as the bill was pushed through Parliament, some Ukrainian soldiers who are currently serving started tweeting about it and said, let's meet outside the President's Office, or the closest place you can get to the president's office, which is outside of a theatre, which is about 150 metres away or so.

And there's a square there. So people started gathering there. It was a completely like spur of the moment, viral thing. And the first day, you know, I'd say more than a thousand people turned up, maybe about 1,500 or so. It's quite a small square. So lots of people in there,

you know, it starts to feel like, you know, a big protest. And, you know, the government responded by, you know, signing, you know, Zelensky hadn't signed the bill. He signed the bill. He released a statement saying, I acknowledge your concerns, etc., etc. That didn't go far enough. There was another day of protest. It wasn't just in Kiev. It was around the place. And I have to say, I was on the ground at these protests. And I saw some people, you know, completely misconstruing what was happening. There were Marjorie Taylor Green for example, she tweeted that this was an anti-war protest

and that the people were sick of Zelensky and look, I was on the ground, I spoke to people, absolutely not. They were singing the Ukrainian national anthem. They were singing, you know, patriotic Ukrainian slogans. They were very much, you know, there were veterans, soldiers there

and they weren't anti-war veterans. They were, you know, going back to the front line and support the government when it comes to defending the country. What they don't support is the government overreaching and, you know, taking the independence away from these anti-corruption bodies. And that's something that's very important for Europe. You know, Ukraine wants to integrate with the EU.

And the EU has all of these laws that, you know, Ukraine has to be in sync with around corruption. That, you know, the old Soviet-Ukrainian system was full of corruption. So getting from that to a, you know, liberal. European kind of politics hasn't been a straight line for Ukraine. And the Ukrainian people do feel quite strongly about it. Zelensky was

like he ran on a campaign of being anti-corruption, you know, a difference. He was a populist kind of, you know, comedian. You know, he was offering something different. And he was offering a dovetishness towards Russia. It wasn't, you know, let's continue. Let's try and

make a kind of agreement with Russia. So for Zelensky to become this wartime leader, a lot of the American right don't tend to understand that this is a genuine thing. He's not, he's not massively unpopular here, you know, but as soon as he overreached, the people, people that have been supporting him right up till this point, decided to go out and protest. And following that second day of protest, Zelensky seemed to back down and he seemed to offer a new build to parliament to try and, you know, re-establish that, that independence. So it looks like the protesters have scored a victory, basically, and that Zelensky has backed down to public concerns, public protests. That, to me, is a sign of a healthy democracy. You know, he did something

unpopular. The people said, hey, this is unpopular. And then he goes, okay, I hear you. I mean, we, let's wait to see. I don't want to. defend this policy unless, you know, there could be more protests at the moment. As we're recording, it looks like this new bill is at least going to get scrutinized before the people react again. In either case, so far, so good. I mean, I have to say as well, the protest was completely peaceful. There were some police around, but they were absolutely not, you know, they weren't surrounding the crowd. They weren't doing anything to the crowd. And the crowd weren't anti, antagonistic or hostile to the police that were there in any way, shape or form.

This was a completely, you know, and it was about a narrow political issue, a domestic political issue. It had no political connection to the war whatsoever. So, and, you know, it looks to have been, as we're recording, it looks, there's some sort of compromise that has probably settled. But we'll remain to be seen. And again, sometimes you get, the accusation as a foreign journalist that, you know, again, not by Ukrainians, but by some people who are, who consider themselves anti-war when it comes to this situation. That's not a term I would use. But let's just say Plades Errol's advocate and that I get sometimes accused of, you know, just parroting a government line. And, you know, the proof is as soon as the first,

the first protest I've seen since the war began, and I've been here since the war began, the first protests I've seen. I was there both days of it, you know, on the ground filming it. So, you know, we, we reporters are doing our jobs here. And again, if you want to really judge the situation, judge it as it is, a narrow political situation that was unpopular by the government. People came out in the streets, hundreds at first, then thousands, not tens of thousands, but, you know, it was quick. It was young people mobilizing in the, in the capital, in wartime situations under martial law. So this wasn't a small deal.

Yeah. But Zelensky responded so far. And he also thanked the protesters for, I think, what he called their dignity, for the way they, the dignity of their protests. So again, you know, this is kind of, this is what you want to, how a government to respond to popular criticism, if it's something that, that, you know, that that is unpopular for good reason. You know, people want independence in their anti-corruption bodies.

So look, it remains to be seen what's going to happen over the next few days and weeks. I think one thing this has definitely proved is this government is still in power at the will of the people. If the people didn't want Zelensky, they would make it very clear. I think that's been demonstrated perfectly clear. But of that, again, you're going to, don't have to take my word for it, take the word of the Ukrainian people who just did this. If you're going to make claims like you're, you know, I'm doing this because I don't want to see Ukrainians fight to the last Ukrainian or whatever. You're not speaking for them. You're not speaking for those people that mobilized on the streets.

They were veterans. They were soldiers. They were patriots. They were going to fight Russia. They hate Russia. You know, they were very. there were lots of anti-Russia things said at the protest. So this is, you know, so if you think that you're using this situation to try and make a point about the conflict, you're just factually wrong.

And the least you should want to be when talking about something is at least factually correct. So factually, the Ukrainian people weren't protesting any kind of anti-war sentiment at this protest. Yeah. And I mean, like anything Marjorie Taylor Green. says should be taken with a grain of salt. I think, I don't think she said anything factual. There were some other bloggers and podcasters and stuff on Twitter saying that. And, you know, look, I don't normally reach out to the American right. It's not, you know, I'm very open about being a liberal, you know, so I'm coming at this from understanding that we are

in a different place at the moment politically with, with the leader of, of, of, of, of, of, of, the United States of America. Yeah. And that simply, you know, not having a dialogue with people that have influence in these spaces is not necessarily prudent to advancing policy ideas on Ukraine. And there is a big movement in the Donald Trump base that is against providing Ukraine with support. And the Ukrainian community in America have had significantly.

success when they've lobbied, you know, like they lobbied Mike Johnson, they brought some evangelicals that had been, that had been, you know, under Russian occupation. Mike Johnson heard their, their stories and then he changed his position on the Ukraine aid vote. So having those, those conversations with people you might be fundamentally, you know, fundamentally opposed to on, on many, many issues, but you still need that kind of support in the seats of government to provide aid that Ukraine needs to defend itself. And the European, Szilensselensky, has had more success recently after that famous blow-up in the Oval Office in basically saying to the Trump administration, appealing to his businessman nature, saying, look, we will buy the

weapons, Europe will buy the weapons, all of them, and you'll get paid, you know, and it'll be a good deal for America, it'll be a good deal for Europe. That works in convincing Donald Trump into thinking, okay, fine, it's a business transaction, fine, you know. So, yeah, you know, it's a difficult one, but, you know, I'm in a position here as a reporter on the ground, so I'm in a privileged position to be able to give you facts that I can see with my own eyes and verify by speaking to people, right? And whether or not you trust my integrity to do that is literally, that's your prerogative, guys. But I take my job seriously and I, and I show I demonstrate, you know, any bit of evidence in my work. I've done that my entire

career. You can go back all the way. So because of that, I feel like there's a duty to correct the record and state what's happening here on the ground because, again, it's not just the American right. That's not really my experience in politics. My experience is more British politics and dealing with the British left who are very opposed to parts of it, it are military aid to Ukraine. So I've had these battles with people that I fundamentally disagree with. but listen those people in the UK don't have any power whereas in the United States these people are wielding significant influence when it comes to being able to provide military aid to Ukraine and I think it's important for the future of Europe I think it's important for people that believe in democracy that Ukraine is supported throughout this war so that's what I'm going to continue to do I'm going to continue to report the truth objectively and use my platform to tell people that I've concluded from everything that I've seen that Ukraine needs to be supported. And again, maybe some people will say,

well, as a reporter, you're just supposed to be unbiased about everything. And, you know, the World War II reporters who were deployed with the Allies certainly weren't unbiased about, you know, Nazi Germany. And, you know, Russia is a expansionist, revanchist, fascist dictatorship with no press freedom, no freedom of speech, no none of those things that the Americans are supposed to care about, right? I thought about it. Ukraine is different. Imagine like there were protests that broke out in Moscow, like what would happen there

to them? All those people would be arrested. Correct. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, people in Ukraine exercising their democratic right to protest something that they don't like about internal Ukrainian politics, we should kind of. to champion that. And the administration, the Zelensky administration actually like hearing them and at least taking their steps to no state repression. No, no, you know, the state could have responded by saying

it's martial law. You're not allowed to protest. Go home and push people off the streets. Hey guys. This is Dee. Do us a favor. We just launched a new newsletter. And what that, it's not a new, it's a newsletter. It's not new. We didn't have an old one. There's a newsletter. And what the newsletter does is aggregates everything we got going whether it's team house shows and interviews eyes on shows what we're tracking and the high side with jack murphy and shan nailer they make they do some really really crazy and great investigative uh articles and stuff like that you're going to get that all in one place uh all you got to do is sign up at the link in the description it's a weird link and if you're listening to us on audio the link is also in the show notes so if you open up your

Apple or your Spotify. You can really scroll down. You'll see the show notes. Hit that link. Sign up for the newsletter. One thing I will promise you is we will never spam you on the emails. The last thing we want you to do is unsubscribe from the newsletter, right? Like I'm there.

I hate getting spam emails. And the best thing it is, is like if you miss a couple of shows, because we are putting out about two, three, sometimes four shows a week, you know, maybe you missed them. You can catch up right there and see what's been going on for. for the last week with the team house eyes on and the high side i love you the link is in the description for the new newsletter thanks guys yeah right they were within their legal rights under martial law to do that i'm not saying they should have done i completely would never have supported that but i'm saying they didn't do that even though they could have done that legally

speaking and they could have argued that it was legal they knew it was morally incorrect and they did the morally correct and, you know, responsible, democratic thing to do, which is to allow freedom of assembly. You know, that's a fundamental right that Ukrainians fought for. They've had several, you know, revolutions and, and huge protest movements over the course of their history calling for independence and freedom of, you know, liberty and freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. These are Ukrainian values. It's not there, they're not, you know, Western values that we're pushing on to the Ukrainian people. These are what Ukrainian people are fighting for. And the least we can do is listen to them, listen to what they're actually saying, rather than talking over them

about what you think they should give up in order to make the world seem like a more stable place. You know, you're not in their shoes. You're not in their position. You're not, you're not being asked to give up anything. They are. So the least, you're, least you could do is sit down and have a conversation with Ukrainians. And I think, I think there are loads of advocates for, I mean, look, the Klitschko brothers, so Vitale Klitschko is the mayor of Keev. I would love to see the Klitschko brothers going on Joe Rogan and, you know, and reaching out to parts of the kind of online digital ecosystem that really has had it in for Ukraine for many years.

And I, you know, I don't understand. I just don't understand it other than it's something that also liberals seem to support. So, you know, it just doesn't make sense to me why there's this kind of poisoning of the idea of being supportive of Ukraine is a bad thing. But it's something I feel like we have a duty to try and at least confront, you know, talk about, discuss. You know, I think these things are relatively important to do. so you know it is kind of interesting to me like how why uh uh either of the clitchco brothers haven't been on rogan uh you know rogan's a fight guy fight fan and it would be an incredible opportunity to be honest for them to get on there and like give their they can give

their own ground truth of what's going on on the ground they've been there come here listen any any one of any any podcaster that listen that's listening in uh that wants to you know you have a significant audience, you want to come over here, you're part of the American right, you will find other conservatives here, Ukrainians that will take you around, that will show you their story, their truth, you know, as people that share philosophies and, you know, beliefs. I don't know why people aren't doing it, you know, like, you know, what? I don't think, I think they have a narrative and they want to, they want to keep it going, unfortunately, especially like the podcast where like, I mean, Ben Shapiro came over here and

he, he came back and he said all of this stuff. And, you know, that's, that's Ben Shapiro saying it. Again, again, someone I have nothing in common with at all. I know, I share no beliefs with this guy. But at the end of the day, he came and spoke to Ukrainians and came back and said, listen, this is this is what I observed by being there. And this isn't North Korea. You can walk around without a minder. You know, there's no one holding your hand. There's no police violence on the street when there was a protest.

Right. There's no repression. There was like when I say there were cops there, I don't mean like there was a wall of cops. I mean like there was like three cops there. There were like five cops there. Yeah, yeah. And there was they were just like, you know, mingling. They weren't

They weren't really showing force, right? At all. Yeah, yeah. At all. You know, they were like public safety there. That's, that's the very most. It's interesting. It's an interesting juxtaposition with like protests that happened in America.

You don't get that in America. In America, you don't get that, right? Yeah. The heart of the free world, supposedly. Yeah. You know, you can't just strike up a protest right outside the White House. No, I mean, you can, I think. But like there's going to be an absolute show of force.

100%. Yeah, yeah. There's going to be a wall of, you know. So like, I'm not saying I don't understand that. I'm not saying that. Sure. But,

but there is what I think it really demonstrates, right, is that there is a public buy-in between the people and the authorities as this war is going on. Yeah. They understand they are all doing. They're all pulling in the same direction. That's not the case currently in America. you guys are completely polarized down the middle. Ukraine is not polarized when it comes to the war.

Sure. It's just not. I mean, think about it, right? They're actually fighting for freedom, right? That everybody in America, especially hear that all the time, freedom, we love freedom. So it's interesting. You would think that it would be a lot easier and it wouldn't have to be this like tug of war for people to be on side of Ukraine, giving them support.

And you would think it would just be a lot easier. easier, man. And I don't understand it. Well, listen, the other argument comes from the idea that America started this conflict by pushing NATO or Eastern Europe. And look, this conflict started in 2014 when the Ukrainians overthrew a leader that was, yes, democratically elected, but they wanted to join the European Union. It wasn't about NATO. NATO wasn't even in the discussion. The Ukrainians weren't, there were, most, most Ukrainians had no interest in joining NATO, right, in 2014. They, they, again, there was an unpopular decision by the Yanukovych government who, who was pro-Russia, who was like, no, we're going to tear up this EU agreement. Right.

We're going to go, we're going to stay with Russia. Uh, the people took to the streets. The state shot those people, they shot 100 people dead in the streets, right? And following that, Eukovych was overthrown. He ran out the country. They held democratic elections immediately afterwards, right? It wasn't like a, you know, a militia coup and they imposed the dictator.

There was a democratically election straight afterwards. And then there was another democratic election years later. Zelensky came in, right? But this was about the European Union. It was about joining the European Union. It wasn't about NATO. After that, after Russia, invaded, annexed Crimea,

invaded Donetsk and Luhansk, you know, claiming that these were Russian lands and, you know, they started, this started in 2014. And the Ukrainians, you know, elected Zelensky saying, look, okay, fine, we'll come to some kind of agreement about this. That's just not fight anymore.

Right. That's who Zelensky was. And he became a wartime leader because even that Dovish attitude towards Russia just meant them, you know, their attitude is Ukraine doesn't exist as a nation state, it's just part of Russia, and that anyone perpetuating the idea that Ukraine has an identity outside of little Russia is a Nazi, basically. If you are liberal, pro-European, you're a Nazi in the eyes of the Russian. Because in their head, being anti-Russian, is to be Nazi because Russians defeated the Nazis.

It's just mindless, moronic fascism to the most basic degree. You know, Ukrainians don't want to be part of a dictatorship. They don't want to live in Russia. They want to live in Ukraine. They made that clear in 1991. They've made it clear many times. They made it clear in 2014. And, you know, again, I can only recommend that,

that people come out here and and talk to these people themselves. Marjorie Taylor Green, come out here yourself. Come out and go, go meet some Christian groups and, and, and, and go tell them how you feel and see what they say to you. Just do it.

You know, if you're so, you know, big and brave. Well, especially if you're so outspoken about it, right? Like,

and you're a, like, I've said this before on the podcast. Like, there's, we got, we have 435 plus 535 people that run, presumably run the entire

United States. You got to take that job seriously. And if you have an outspoken opinion, go and actually do... And you have to be fair. Loads of them have. Loads of Republicans and loads of Democrats have. That bipartisan consensus in Congress exists because those people

know, you know, something about what's going on in Ukraine. The people that haven't have been here are the ones who are the most interested in voting against Ukraine aid. It's like the only way you can shut your mind off to this is by not, not,

you know, looking at the problem and, and embracing it. And that's what a lot of people do with lots of conflicts around the world. You know, I can name a handful that people just, if you don't want to learn what's going on, it's much easier to have a biased,

you know, perspective on, on, on what's actually taking place. Right. And just be fed the misinformation that's getting put out, put out there, um,

and run with it. Um, back, I got one, question about the bill that passed, the law that passed about getting rid of the independence of these agencies. It was pretty popular within the parliament, right? And I did see that the thought process behind doing that was because Russia had influence over these agencies somehow. Is that true? Is there anything there? Yeah, I mean, look, that's that, I haven't looked at all of the

evidence that they have on all of the, you know, I couldn't tell you in minute detail what those things are. I can tell you that Ukrainian press outlets, independent Ukrainian press outlets, did not agree with the government's perception of, and the public didn't agree with that. But look, when the Parliament passes things, Zelensky wield significant authority. The government wants to do this. It's a wartime government. They say the Russians are involved. We're going to pass this.

The parliament just passes it. Again, there's not a lot of, you know, there is definitely less democratic scrutiny of Zelensky's government during war than there would be during peace. And that is like on a basic level, like completely understandable. Sure. But like, you know, that has, that has. implications. It has, you know, this is the reality of the ground.

None of you have lived, if you're not, if you're not here or in a country that has experienced something similar, it's hard to think of few countries that have faced an invasion like this. If you haven't lived in a country under invasion, you don't understand what it's like, you know, again, those things that you take for granted, those freedoms that you take for granted are under threat here, not because the government wants to put them under threat. It's, you know, people saying we are willing to let go of certain freedoms right now because we understand that we are under attack and we need to pull together to. And there is a complete buy-in from all walks of society.

This isn't the government forcing this on Ukrainians. So there's just no other way to explain it to people without, saying as simple as it is, you know, this government will fall, Zelensky's government will fall if he does something unpopular and the people get tired of him. There's no doubt to, you know, and one of the things that he could do that would make him fall is sign an agreement with Russia that gives away, but basically all of this territory. I could tell you, if he signed that agreement, he would be overthrown tomorrow. So, like, you know, like the, it's just so far removed from reality, the kind of argument that I've had with people in recent days, that it defies belief.

It's like they almost believe literally the opposite of the thing that's true. So when it's a situation like that, it's like, what can I say? You know, it's right. You know, chem trails aren't real. You know, that's just, jet fuel can't melt steel beams. I mean, or can. It's like, it's, you know. Yeah, you're right.

I mean, it's. And I understand the reasoning behind, like, having the government be a little bit more lean and mean where it can make decisions faster when you're in a war and being invaded. Can't really have, like, a, you know, a one-month floor fight over something that's, like, integral to, like, defense or something like that. Do you think, like, you mentioned, like, if you were to give away territory, like, let's say they were to be able to freeze the lines and have a ceasefire, which, I mean, Russia is a fucking joke. like you can't trust the thing they fucking say. That's the critical point. Right. That's the reason why there isn't going to be any kind of trade of territory

because even if there was, the Ukrainians don't trust that the Russians won't invade again. Yeah. So even if they did freeze the lines and there was some kind of security guarantee, you know, everything that, you know, could happen as good as possible could happen. you think the Ukrainian like people would be pissed about that and like to the point where to the point where they try and get Zelensky out if there was like some kind of ceasefire yeah and no official recognition of the land like the the Ukrainians will always consider that Ukrainian so of course that there would you know the government wouldn't survive saying these lands are Russian would it survive saying we're not not going to, we're not going to shoot in these territories for, you know, X amount of time or indefinitely. There is a substantial amount of the population that would be amenable to that because look, they don't want to be bombed every single day, right? That doesn't mean that

they're conceding that that land is Russian. And again, this isn't about land. It's about people. The people in those places are Ukrainian. And, Ukraine isn't willing to give up its people, you know, it's not willing to give up, you know, the second most popular city in Ukraine to Russia. Like that, that's insane. What are you talking about? Like, you're just, you're giving up New York to, to, L.A., to Mexico. Or, like, by force, like, it would never, it would never wash anywhere in the world. but some people think that Ukrainians should be expected to, you know, hand over, you know,

Kharkiv and hand over Kersan. Yeah, it's wild because, like, I, you know, I try to tell people who are like, yeah, we shouldn't be giving support to Ukraine at all. I'm like, imagine somebody invaded and took a bunch of land or was like bombing you every day, what would you do? Well, how would you feel? you know, in America where it's like, you know, freedom and I need my guns and all that stuff. We all know what they would do.

We all know what they would do. Like there's no doubt. There's no doubt. Like some of the Ukrainians have had significant public international backlash because some people fighting on the Ukrainian side are like out and out fascist neo-Nazis. Sure. Some people are, a small amount of them are. But I mean, America has loads of fascist. neo-Nazis.

You go to any country and they got them. But again, those fascist neo-Nazis would be on the front lines fighting if America was in a war. And you wouldn't go. Basically, all of America can go to the dogs because you've got like the proud boys are holding, you know, part of the front line in, I don't know, Virginia. Like it just, it defies belief. And it's like, yes, these people do exist within Ukrainian society. They're not popular.

They're not like, you know, beloved and they're not winning elections. They're not governing the country. You know, far right candidates in Europe are far more likely to get elected than they are in Ukraine. But Ukrainians are judged for a much smaller far right situation than... Do remember the time like Azov was battling and Mariupil, right? they were holding, you know, as much as they could. And there was a big, big talking point here in America about how like Azov is neo-Nazi and stuff like that.

And that very well may be true that there are parts of Azov that are Azov that are Azov battalion that are that. But they were the guys defending the Mariopo, part of Ukraine, against an invading force. So, so look, that, look, as of started as a far right movement, right? and they had a far right battalion that when the war began with Russia, Russia invaded, these guys went to the east or were we already in the east and fought to defend Ukrainian territory from Russian attacks. Yes, they were far right. They were also very effective fighters and they put their lives on the line to defend Ukraine when even the state couldn't do anything

in parts of the, you know. So that won a lot of respect for like, like, imagine again, imagine one of your far right, you know, I don't know, the fucking boogaloo boys or whoever. Like imagine they did something like that. And people went, okay, look, we don't agree with your politics. But like, right. So it was kind of this, this. And the state, what was the state to do with this group afterwards?

The state responded by saying, look, well done. We're going to make you an official unit of the national guard. right, you are now a state-controlled structure. You're not a militia, you're not a paramilitary, you are the National Guard of Ukraine, part and parcel of it. In exchange for that, you will have no political activities whatsoever. Your far-right affiliations are gone. You are just regular units inside the Army or the National Guard.

That's what happened. And, like, again, what would you? rather they do. They, like, would you rather they said, no, stay a, stay a paramilitary or they, or, or they went in and did something massively unpopular by disarming, forcibly disarming these guys who, who defended, like, it just, you know, like, there's going to be public backlash to whatever you do, an international outcry to whatever you do with anything. It was just crazy to me, because, like, the, the, the talking point here in America,

specifically was just like, dude, there's fucking Nazis, neo-Nazis, everywhere you go, brother. Like, what are we talking about? Like, let's stop acting like there are some of the people that are basically neo-Nazis in America complaining that there are neo-Nazis fighting. Right. And it's like, what are you talking about? Yeah. You guys agree on everything like with the people that you're claiming exist who do exist

in a minor, minor not. There are also anarchists and socialists and communists fighting in the Ukrainian army. I know a few of them, right? They're wild. They're cool guys. Come meet some of them. But again, they're fighting alongside liberals. They're fighting alongside bakers, lawyers, technicians, pianists, ballerinas.

They're fighting alongside everyone. And, you know, their politics really, it doesn't matter at the end of the day in what's going on. There are bigger things at play than, you know, Ukrainians can have these fights about what the, the identity of Ukraine is once they've secured their future and independence. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And they will do. They're very good. Ukraine's are very good at fighting over politics. They'll do it on their own.

They don't need you to lecture them and do it for them. But again, when they're fighting for their fucking freedom. Like, like, like, like, like that don't make stuff up. Like, like, okay, acknowledge as of history. But look at what's happened in the years since then and be like, okay, this happened and that happened and that happened. Things change, man. Things change. Shit happens and then things change.

And then you react to things changing. Donald Trump is no longer the apprentice guy. He's the president of the United States, right? Like, you know, he was on WrestleMania and now he's in the White House. Like, I can't keep talking about him as if he's the WrestleMania guy forever because he's, he's still the, you know, I might not like that. that change happening, but I have had to react to that change and respond to it. So you have to react to the change around, you know, around the world. You know, it's times are changing, man.

Times are changing. The world is a change in place. It's interesting. It is interesting because never in my life what I have thought far right American, like far right factions in America would be so pro Russia. It's very common in Europe. Lots of the far right here are pro-Russia. You know, look again, when I say here, I mean in Europe, I mean, look, again, I'm a liberal and I, you know, I'm very clear and open and upfront disclosing what my politics are.

So I know I'm reaching out and I'm talking to people that I have no shared, you know, philosophy with. that's fine for the purposes of trying to explain what's happening in Ukraine. Sure. People who are in parts of the world that Ukraine relies on for support. And it would be a dereliction of my journalistic duty to just allow Russia to talk to these guys, you know, without anyone trying to correct the record. Again, please go and visit Russia and try and walk around and do something. thing and come and visit Ukraine.

Go to both countries. Especially as an American. Yeah, go visit Moscow or even see the nicer areas and see if you can walk around freely. Like it's on a big deal. Just go. If you're so convinced, right, that that's correct. Prove it. Go demonstrate it.

You know. Or, I mean, I would, I would urge you not to because Russia kidnaps Americans, holds them hostage. and then they get like criminals sent back by, you know, giving up these, you know, they held a Wall Street Journal journalist for God knows how long, right? You know, this is this is what we're talking about. Brittany Greiner too, who was playing ball, basketball in Russia. So she was like a well-known basketball player in Russia.

She got bagged for some weed. And they traded her for Victor Bout. Yeah, like the Lord of War, you know what I mean? Like, like our American. Americans really saying, oh, it's base that we sent Victor Bout back to Putin. Why does Putin want fucking Victor Bout? Yeah. Like, if he is this, this, you know, traditional whatever, why is he, why is he getting

a fucking warlord out of prison? Yeah. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, it beggars belief. You just don't, you can't, it's like two plus two equals a bag of potatoes. You know what I mean? But look, all of these people said that Ukraine would lose. Ukraine will lose.

Ukraine, Russia will crush you. First, they won't invade and then Russia will crush Ukraine. That hasn't happened. We're three and a half years into this war now. We're going to be, there's more war coming and the Ukrainians are still fighting. What they're asking for is your respect firstly, right?

And you'll support secondly, right? If you're not going to offer your support, the least you can do is offer your respect. Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, be honest about what they're going through. You can still turn around and say, you are facing an unjust assault by Russia, I still don't want to send my tax dollars to.

Fine, if that's your position, go for it. But don't give me that that garbage that Ukrainians are, you know, dying against their will. And they really want to, you know, be part of Russia. It's not true. It's not true. All right, man. One more thing. What do you think they are in terms of like a possible ceasefire? So far away. So, so far away. There is no progress on that whatsoever. Even though the sides are talking, the Ukrainians are trying to demonstrate to the Americans very clearly that they are trying to talk with the Russians.

Yeah. Because it's the only way, like, the thing is, it's fine to criticize Trump for this, and I do criticize Trump for this. But his position with Russia, like learning the hard way by trying to deal business with Russia and trying to Obama did this, you know, Biden started doing this, Macron did this, like, Hollande did this, Merkel did this, like all of the leaders of the world tried to give Russia

what it wanted so there wouldn't be war. And they learned the hard way that what Russia wants is war. And Donald Trump is determined to learn for himself by offering Russia everything that it wants only for Russia to turn around and say, no, no, actually what we want is is more war, motherfucker. And Donald Trump is determined to learn this for himself, but he will learn, like every other leader has learned, that's been humiliated by Putin over and over and over again, that he sees any sign of diplomacy or negotiation as weakness that he will exploit to further his goals. That is the way he thinks, because he's a mega maniacal, fascist, who wants to conquer European land.

Like, you know, if you really care about all of this, you know, freedom and, and shit that you guys want to claim you support, you've got an opportunity here to actually stand on the right side of history where a dictator is coming into a democracy and trying to say to a democracy, no, you will be a dictatorship. Yeah. In the modern day, right? Yeah, the choice is clear, dude.

You know what I mean? like it's it's clear it's it's black and white like uh aws thanks for this bro let's do it again soon my pleasure guys thank you so much for listening to a liberal explained part of the world i appreciate that it might not be a perspective that that that lots of people uh that might listen to this podcast want to hear but i feel it's important to you know reach out to people i wouldn't normally speak to so uh yeah listen i think you'd be surprised we're pretty pro ukrainian here like we're not yeah i mean look there is a split there is a split in america and i and i i understand that split and i'm trying to to bridge across that split so i think i think that's important but

listen thanks so much for listening to me guys and you have a great great evening all right thanks alas torah see you brother hey guys it's jack i just want to talk to you for a moment about how you can support the show if you've been watching it enjoying it um but you'd like to get a little bit more involved and help us continue to do this you can check out our patreon it is Patreon.com slash the Teamhouse. And for $5 a month, you can get access to all of these episodes of the Team House ad-free. The same goes with our affiliated podcast, Eyes On, with Andy Milburn, Jason Lyons, Mick Mulroy. That one, you will also get all of those episodes ad-free.

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