The Texan Podcast - Interview: Rep. Michael Cloud Talks About the Border, the ATF's Gun Database, and the Midterm Elections

Episode Date: October 11, 2022

Want to support reporting on Texas politics that doesn’t include the spin? Subscribe at https://thetexan.news/subscribe/ This week, senior reporter Hayden Sparks interviewed Congressman Michael Cloud (R-TX-27). They discussed the crisis at the U.S.-Mexico border, the growing federal database of federal firearm sales records, and what Cloud would like to see happen in Congress if Republicans win a majority of seats in the House of Representatives this November. Enjoy this content? Be sure to subscribe for similar interviews and The Texan’s Weekly Roundup — a podcast released every Friday that brings you the latest news in Texas politics.

My name is Hayden Sparks. I'm a senior reporter here at The Texan. Today I interviewed United States Representative Michael Cloud, who represents the 27th Congressional District here in Texas. We talked about border security, illegal immigration, the ATF's registry of gun owners, and other issues that matter to Texans. I hope you enjoy this interview, and remember to go to thetexan.news and subscribe today for more coverage on issues that matter to everyday Texans. I hope you enjoyed this interview and remember to go to thetexan.news and subscribe today for more coverage on issues that matter to everyday Texans. Thanks. Congressman, it is a privilege to be here with you in Austin. Thank you so much for joining us.

Sure thing. Good to be with you. I want to jump right into it. You represent the 27th Congressional District, which is a unique district that spans into South Texas and comes up here to Austin. So border security has been an issue that has been important to voters across the state. And we've had 2.2 million encountered illegal aliens on the Southwest border. And that doesn't count people who have got away. Right. Exactly. All the people who were not detected. What do you think and what do you contend are the main reasons the Biden administration is either unwilling or unable to decrease detected illegal crossings? Well, first, we need to be clear. It's not that they're unable to. Unlike the previous

administration, the Biden administration inherited a solution and has turned it into a catastrophe. And so the willingness isn't the issue, or I should say the ability isn't the issue, it's the willingness. And we've met with Mayorkas several times. He's lied to us about what's going on at the border, things that everybody knows, things that we have video of, he says is not happening. And so it's simply there's not a willingness to secure the border in spite of everything going on. And it's really tragic because the implications are horrific. You know, the migrants being persecuted along the journey. We can look at 70,000 to 80,000 fentanyl deaths because of the connections to the cartels. It's just horrific what this administration is allowing to happen for whatever their political

means are, whatever their political objectives are. Now, Governor Abbott here in Austin, he was at an event in Midland where he declared organizations that traffic fentanyl in Texas to be terrorist organizations. And you've supported legislation that would designate cartels as terrorist organizations. Do you think that's the solution? It's part of the solution. Obviously, we need infrastructure on the border. One thing that people don't talk about a lot when we look at the success of the Trump administration, we'll talk about safe third country, which was huge. We'll look at other things that were put in place. But one

of the biggest things was they just followed the law. You know, the laws that were already in the books, and the Biden administration continues to ignore the law. And so designating these cartels as terrorist organizations certainly excuse me, certainly would be justified and would help to push back on the evil that's happening in these countries. Because people, you know, supposedly the borders are, Kamala Harris went down to the border to look for the root causes and they're trying to, you know, think about these other countries. The best thing that we can do to these other countries, for these other countries, is to help uproot this evil that's in their country.

You know, I know companies who would love to invest. Mexico needs energy. And there's companies that would invest billions of dollars, but they're not going to when the cartels have that kind of influence. The cartels are profiting off of everything that comes across the border. So that's drugs. That's the human trafficking situation. But it's also the legal stuff coming across the border. For example, a lot of, you know, cows that make it to feed yards in Texas or are born in Mexico, come to a feed yard in Texas, get fatel's getting a kickback from that. And so their influence in these countries that are trying to develop is outsized. And so it's hard for them to develop a stable economy when the cartel is the primary strong arm influence in these regions. So what would you say to Democrats and skeptics who contend that all of this is timed and Republicans are overblowing the extent of the security risks in terms of

President Trump declaring it an emergency only after losing the majority in Congress or Governor Abbott launching all of these border security measures the year of the Republican primary. How would you respond to those criticisms? Well, even in my few short years there, you've seen an awareness of what's happening at the border. When I first showed up in Congress, a lot of members didn't really know and kind of had the same attitude. Is it real? What's going on? And I, along with other members, have taken a number of trips to the border, bringing other members with us. I think people understand now that it's real. We have plenty of documented footage. We know what's going on. And it's definitely real. I would say the hardest part about communicating

what's at the border is it sounds like you're over-exaggerating when you're just barely scratching the surface. And when it comes to telling these stories about the rape trees on properties, dead bodies found on properties, you know, I've visited facilities where, you know, 30 to 50% of the young women have admitted to being sexually assaulted on the journey. And who knows how many don't want to talk about it. You know, it's, again, it's horrific. Anytime you have policies that a criminal element like that is looking forward to and begin to market your policies to the world. And you got to think like this, this is not the right way.

And this administration continues to aid and abet these cartels in having this outside. And it's something like $200 million that they're making a month or something like that. It's just off the human trafficking. It's ridiculous. It's just unconscionable and completely immoral that we would allow this to happen. There was recently a conviction here in Texas of an individual who smuggled someone from Guatemala into Texas, and she ultimately died near Odessa, Texas. And they uncovered a human smuggling operation where people were, you were mentioning, being charged $10,000 to $12,000 to be smuggled into Texas. But these

types of things have always gone on, unfortunately. What can Republicans promise in the coming Congress? Because there's been a lot of criticism of the Biden administration. If Republicans retake Congress, what types of policies would they implement to dramatically reduce this type of activity? Well, I can speak for myself and what we'll be pushing, and I know a number of other Republicans who agree on the issues will be. Whether we can get the whole conference to support it and whether we can get it through the Senate and then onto the White House desk is a different issue. But, you know, first of all, we've got to impeach Mayorkas. I mean, this guy is not acting in good faith. He lies to the American people. He lies about

what's going on in the border. I visited the facilities and they'll literally lie about what's happening in front of our eyes. You know, for example, there was once we're at a Donna facility and there's a bus loaded up with people and we're like, hey, what's going on here? Like, oh, that's a staff change. And it's like, you realize the bus has windows, right? And it's just that kind of, you know, and you can't negotiate in good faith with somebody like that. It's not the fact that, you know, oh, we have a policy difference on these sorts of

issues. It's that they're literally allowing a criminal element and then empowering them. And, you know, there's been this, you know, pushback from the liberal media and some of the on the left about Abbott sending buses and DeSantis sending, you know, migrants to different- Calling it human trafficking itself. Yes. But the federal government's been doing that on the taxpayers dime for the last several years, you know, and and it's just the duplicity would be comical if it wasn't so tragic. And the fact that we're dealing with so many lives just absolutely ruined. And, you know, so so we've got to start with the leadership.

We need new leadership. The thing we have to stop doing as Republicans is stop sending this administration money to do bad things. We had a funding bill back earlier in the year, and they were talking about how this bill is going to be great. It's going to plus up DHS. That means more money for border security and everything like that. But we got to be savvy enough to know that, OK, we send the border bill over there or we send a bill over there that pluses up DHS. And we're thinking that's more money for border security. We certainly need more money for border security. We need the infrastructure. We need the technology.

We need, you know, raises for Border Patrol. We need more Border Patrol agents and all those different kind of things. But the administration gets the money and this is, oh, it's more money to help with our human trafficking operation. And so they repurpose that in a sense for, I mean, literally we're paying more to not build a wall that we've already, Congress has already told them to build the wall for. And so that's the kind of people we're dealing with. And we have to realize that when we're writing bills and passing legislation and make sure that we're going to stop sending them money to do bad things until they start doing what they're supposed to be doing. I want to turn a little bit to the Second Amendment because amid all of this crime and increase in illegal immigration,

I think self-defense is probably at the top of mind for many people. You've been an outspoken critic of a program at the ATF that collects data on gun owners by requiring businesses that have gone out of business to collect now up to a billion nearly records on firearm owners. What would you say, how would you characterize the threat to the Second Amendment that is in that program? Well, it's something we should all be wary of because what's supposed to happen is, okay, there's records of gun purchases. If an FFL goes out of business, records up to 20 years would go to the ATF for safekeeping in case there's a crime, they can help trace it. First of all, very rarely has there been a law enforcement benefit from that. The cases are few and far between when you look at the data. But this kind of started out when we found out that in 2021, the ATF had amassed in one year, close to 55 million gun records. And we thought that was kind of like a outsized number that seemed kind of like a lot.

And so we began to look into it and found out that indeed they had over time collected almost a billion gun records and put them into a digital searchable database. Now, it's already against the law to create a federal gun registry. But when does a searchable database of gun records not become a gun registry? You know, and it's so from the left, it's like, oh, we'll just change the definition that is, you know, it's not a recession, even though it, you know, every other time this has happened, it has been or, you know, everything that we see going on in a lot of the politics when it comes to this sort of thing. But the Inflation Reduction Act that doesn't reduce inflation and the like. But when it came to this, you know, they have a searchable database. And literally what we've seen is now the ATF showing up and knocking on doors saying, hey, we have a couple

serial numbers here of you purchasing some firearms. Can we see these? We're just doing a spot check in your house, you know, on your front door. This is not what the Second Amendment was about. This is everything contrary to that. And the ATF has continued to, again, not act in good faith when it comes to the American people and upholding their rights that are enshrined in the Constitution under the Second Amendment. And you've introduced a bill to more or less prohibit the ATF from keeping these types of records, but obviously your party's not in power and that bill hasn't gone anywhere in the House Judiciary Committee where it was referred. But do you think in the

coming Congress, if Republicans are in charge, are you optimistic that that bill could make some progress? I am optimistic that we will make some progress on that should the House flip. Jim Jordan will be chair of the Judiciary Committee and he's not afraid to take on a fight, I guess, as we know. And so you've had conversations with your colleagues about this. Yes. Yeah, very much. There's a lot of support among among Republicans up there to understand that what the ATF is doing is is not right. And it's part of a sadly a theme that we've seen over the last couple of years where the bureaucracy has really outgrown itself. And that's true under Republican and Democratic administrations, where the bureaucracy, in a sense, knows. In a sense, they look at an

elected official and they're like, you're temporary, we're permanent. So we'll kind of do what we want. We'll drag our feet on policies we don't like. We'll overstep our authorities to enforce policies we do like and really need to be held in check. And, you know, I'm on the oversight committee. And so that's one especially should the House flip really looking at being able to dig in and address a lot of these issues? Because what we see happening in the ATF is really bad because of what it means for the American people and their Second Amendment rights, but it's part of a culture really that's in our bureaucracy that needs to be addressed. So I do want to ask though, what do you believe the end game is with programs like this? Or is it just that there are many people who are concerned, especially with events like the ghastly shooting in Uvalde, that the government needs to be doing more to acknowledge the role of firearms and different types of violence, especially mass murder? What would you say, are there some

reasonable policies the Democrats are proposing, like raising the age to purchase a semiotic weapon to 21, or just keeping a list of people who have these types of weapons? What is so unreasonable about that from your perspective? Our founders understood the importance of the Second Amendment in protecting and preserving the rest of our rights. It's really when it comes down to it, it's not about your right to go shoot clay traps on the weekend or go hunting or those kind of things. It's really about securing our homes, securing our rights, protecting our liberties, those sorts of things. And a lot of the proposals we see coming out of the left, or even from reasonable people who just haven't done the research, when you look at the data, it's really counterintuitive in that sense.

And just at a first level of why you look at the cities that have the highest gun restrictions, there's the ones with the highest murders, you know, and, and there was, uh, as far as we could find only one study that really one peer reviewed study that studied the effects of raising an age to 21. And believe it or not, it was either in, in, in negligent difference, or if anything, it was a 6% increase in, in crimes with a gun during that time. And so a lot of these things, you know, the data is just not there to support them. It doesn't mean the heart's in the wrong place, but the thing that if you're going to take an honest look at it, and there's not one single contributing factor and to try to approach the, the topic that way would, would be the wrong way to do it.

But if there was, the closest thing you can find to it is broken homes. And that's something that we as a society have got to realize is that the family is important and we have put in policy after policy after policy to attack the family. And those things that we held dear that have united us, the rule of law, you know, all these sorts of things, uh, begin, uh, even in the family, uh, and those values that have held us together as society. Uh, and the Uvalde shooter and a broken home was one of them. I want to turn a little bit to the strategy of the Republican Party and the electoral gains that the GOP has made in South Texas. Are you confident that that is a trend and Republicans are going to continue to make gains in South Texas? Or is this just, for instance, in the special election with Myra Flores?

Or is that just an isolated case of the Republican Party focusing on one election? Or do you think voters in South Texas are becoming more open to conservative policies? But what the extreme push from the left has done has really unveiled their, I guess, their true intent on a lot of different issues. And because of that, people who've been really held conservative values are beginning to realize, but have been told, oh, we're supposed to vote Democrat because that's what Abuelito did. They're beginning to see like, wait a second, this isn't really what I want for my family or for my community. Law and order really does matter. Having these values that my family has held dear matters. The whole redefining society for things that have been long established is is just kind of crazy and ludicrous, you know, and and, you know, those kind of things, there's an understanding that there's a right way and a wrong way to do this. You know, and we are one of the most diverse nations in the world. We're going to, with every generation, keep working toward that more perfect union. But a lot of the craziness coming out of the left is just is is vitriolic.

It's divisive. It's and the American people are realizing, like, that's not really us in spite of them trying to convince us that's us. And I'm not going to be aligned with that anymore. Do you think it's primarily issues like inflation or illegal immigration that are pushing voters in South Texas to Republicans? Or could it be other factors that are contributing to it? You know, I think it's a little bit all of that, but, you know, all that comes down to a worldview. So, you know, a lot of times we try to decide, you know, the pollsters love to, you know, dissect these, but it really comes down to a worldview, you know, one that values the dignity and rights that we understand that God placed within humans, and then we put a government there to protect those or one that believes that, you know, no government is really the end all be all. And, you know, we should look to government to solve all our problems, you know, and, and,

and it's really Liberty versus control, you know, and a lot of these different issues and, you know, people are understanding as they see these values challenged. And here's the thing, you know, I've talked to the people who are most adamant about these sort of things. So interesting to talk to are the people who have immigrated here and who've come with their families and have worked hard. You know, I know a restaurant owner in my district and to hear him talk about American voters who don't seem to get what's happening in the country right now, he will use a few colorful metaphors, as they say, to like, what's wrong with you people? It's like, I worked hard to come here to bring my family to make a living, and you're voting for the things that I fled, you know, under communism and those sorts of things.

So, you know, this is just how important it is that we continue to pass on to the next generation really the amazing story that America is. Not a perfect story, and we shouldn't have to gloss over that, but still, you know, with every generation being on the front end of moving human flourishing forward, and that's the story of what it is to be America. That's shining city on a hill that's done wonderful for the people who are here, but also has provided a world that's more peaceful, more secure, more prosperous for people around the world. Well, and on the subject of pushing human flourishing forward, what would you identify as the greatest threat to our constitutional republic today? Yeah, wow. There's a lot of complacency. It would certainly be one if

you're looking at internal threats. It's just people who, our form of government requires our participation. You know, you can go back to Benjamin Franklin at the Constitutional Convention being asked, do we have a republic or do we have a monarchy? He said, we have a republic if you can keep it. We have to be diligent about it and not take these liberties for granted. And sometimes that's hard for people who've known nothing but what it means to live under a relatively peaceful place here in the United States or under the prosperity that our nation has compared to other nations. And to take the why behind that what for granted when we need to not do that.

And, you know, if you look at the trend of what they call the American century, what it's meant from the innovation that we've brought in medicine and all these other factors, what it's meant for the world in coming out of poverty and what it's meant for life expectancy and even in some of, you know, military missteps and everything like that, still in spite of that, less people have died in wars, you know, during this period. And so there's a lot to be said there. And so we can't be complacent when we look internally. But obviously, there's external threats as well. China is huge. And, you know, they are basically an all out warfare and everything but collateral against our nation. And we have to be wary of that sort of thing, you know, in the many different facets from stealing seed technology to buying farmland, to stealing trade secrets, to, you know, currency manipulation to, you know, you can just go on and on and on. And that doesn't even touch the coronavirus and, you know and everything we've seen over the last couple of years. And we've got to take that very seriously from a federal perspective

as well. I think there are probably fewer things that make our adversaries like China happier than seeing some of the division in our country and how we have a tendency to attack one another. Would you say that there are things that both sides can do? And you're a Republican, so I'll ask you about Republicans. But would you say that there are times when perhaps the way that Republicans or politicians on both sides characterize issues as an existential crisis or an apocalyptic identity crisis, do you think that could be toned down to more of a policy discussion? What do you think it's going to take for people to be able to have policy differences without and still unite around shared values? Yes and no. And here's the thing. A lot of the policy discussion, like, you know, if we think a generation ago, the difference between the right and left was more we had the same values for our communities. We had the same values for our nation. We understood that the

United States was a force for good in the world, generally speaking. And so the political discussion was more in what's the role of government in getting to that shared space? And what's the role of the federal government or the state government? And what's the role of different institutions? And so that was the political debate. But when the political debate is the U.S. is good or bad, or these things are good or bad, or, you know, in the case of the border, for example, are we going to aid and abet cartels? Are we going to secure the border? You know, on some of these issues, there's not a lot of wiggle room when it comes to these sorts of liberty-defining issues. And so you have to stand strong on the, you know, we understand that these rights are not granted from government. They're placed within us from God, and then we put a government in

place to protect them. And so you have to stand strong on some of those things. Now, when we can, and you know, I'm a Texan, there's a lot of times, you know, when it comes, I'm a Texan on the ag committee. And so there's a lot of ag issues or port issues where we're able to reach across the aisle for stuff that matters to Texas and, and work on those kinds of nuanced policy things. Uh, but when it comes to some of these other things, it, if, if you're calling good evil and evil good, good, you can't negotiate on that, you know. And so that's what makes the time and season we're in as a nation. And I would say, too, you know, if you study superpowers throughout history, they rise and fall for reasons. And sometimes when we're born, like I said, in the United States, all you can imagine is the United States being preeminent.

But the truth is, is that nations do rise and fall for reasons. And we are at a point where, you know, we've overextended military, where we've not been, you know, we're the world's reserve currency, but we're not acting like the world's reserve currency and those sorts of things. And so the average cycle throughout history of a superpower is 240 to 250 years. And we're right in the middle of that. And I believe in America. I have hope for our future. But we have to realize where we're at in order to make the changes needed to secure that for future generations. of protesting that culminated in the 2020 riots and then after uh after the january 6 event there were there was a resolution introduced and and you voted against it and and gave a statement that i thought highlighted an important aspect of this debate and you stated uh words to the effect that the government or the Capitol should not be considered a temple and it should not be set up as this religious icon. What do you think it's going to take to restore the proper role of government in our lives as a tool rather than this idol? And what's notable is I had a conversation with some other people on the floor as we were about

to vote on that. And I said, look, the language in here, it calls this capital the temple of democracy. And I had a few members like, oh my gosh, that's sacrilegious. But then it was a tough vote. And anyway, so I was one of the few to vote the way I did. But it was, it was intriguing, almost spiritualizing a government building.

But that's the whole idea from the left and the movement behind it is to replace God with government and to where government becomes the end all. Now, I'm not anti-government. Obviously, I'm serving in government because I think you can make a difference. I think there's a role and a proper function for it. But when we begin to ask things of government that we're supposed to be doing in ourselves, for example, and I'll just give you an example. A lot of times you'll hear that the number one role of government is to keep people safe. That is an important role of government, but the number one role of government is to keep people free. And if you get that backwards, that's what allows a lot of the missteps we've seen during the COVID pandemic with the lockdowns and all these sorts of things going on where power's been abused because you get those two things backwards. So we have to keep people free first. That's our first essential job is to protect those liberties, and then we can keep

people safe. But from a worldview perspective, that comes back to understanding the proper role of government and understanding that government is not a god and we should not look to it as such. Well said. Well, Congressman, thank you so much. We're going to leave it there, but I appreciate you coming to Austin and our listeners, I'm sure our watchers, I appreciate you as well. Thank you so much. Thank you. God bless y'all.