The Texan Podcast - Sen. Brandon Creighton on School Choice, House and Senate Dynamics, Public University Tenure

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi everyone, this is Cameron Abrams, reporter for The Texan. Today we talked with Senator Brandon Creighton. He's the chair of the Education Committee and has been appointed to the Conference Committee for the budget. We talked all things school choice, we talked DEI, and we talked about college tenure. And exclusively for our subscribers, we talked about the preemption bill and the possibility of a special session. You can check out the full interview in the link below. Senator Creighton. Yeah. You have been leading all things education in the Senate, and school choice hasn't had much success in the past, but now there's a lot of momentum behind it. Why school choice now? You know, I like your reference to the recent sessions, definitely even longer than that on

Starting point is 00:00:52 school choice and education freedom really not having much traction. The education landscape in Texas, really across the nation over the past 36 months even, is completely different than before. And I think that reflects the sentiment of our moms and dads out there that just are doing their best every day to make life make sense. But their top priority is for their kids to get the education they need and deserve. And certainly the sentiment in the Capitol is feeling the pulse of exactly that, right? So members that have not been for school choice in the past, I feel like there's a different landscape for hearts and minds and just an open mind on, you know, what are the deal points? What are the considerations? Definitely listening to our constituents, our parents out there that are

Starting point is 00:01:52 asking for something different. And at the same time, you know, we're providing some reforms and some much needed change to our public school system, lifting up our teachers more than ever before. We're doing some things that show that the narrative that you can't provide education freedom in an education savings account in 2023 without also doing things that public school, you know, needs to see happen. That narrative is just disingenuous. We can do both. Yeah. Well, you mentioned you're having a lot of conversations with parents. Yes. And so what are some of the concerns? What's worrisome about the current state of education that you're hearing from parents?

Starting point is 00:02:36 You know, it's in major categories, and it really, as it should be, is a very diverse list of concerns, right? I mean, we talk quite a bit about woke lesson plans in the classroom. We talk about advancing political ideology when we should be advancing reading, writing, and arithmetic. But separate from that, we also have concerns about school safety. We have concerns about decisions during COVID that just decimated performance numbers in our public schools. And, you know, many of us feel like those decisions were completely unfounded, that we could have certainly been careful in a health care sort of vulnerability type of environment. But as we continue to see the same numbers now as we saw then with 99.6 percent survival rates, you know, the damage that the shutdowns during COVID did on performance in public schools is now showing that in certain categories,

Starting point is 00:03:47 83% of our 6 million public school kids are not performing at grade level. And that's just not acceptable to anyone in Texas. But certainly, the real papers that are being graded are our moms and dads out there that are making decisions for their kids and the future of education for their family. And it's, again, being reflected right here in the state capitol during this session. Right. And the education savings accounts, the plan you guys put forward, it has a special carve out for rural districts. And can you tell us a little bit expand about why that was included in the plan? Sure. So, you know, we've, we have all kinds of arguments, advantages, disadvantages of just the structure and the model of where you start out with expanded school choice and education freedom. You know, what's the footprint look like?

Starting point is 00:04:51 What's the architecture, you know, that really is the silver bullet for how, you know, how we best take steps forward to provide what our parents and our school kids need. So when you talk about some of the objections we've had in the past and why education freedom and school choice has not made it across the finish line, much of that discussion has been tied to smaller school districts not being able to scale a quote-unquote exodus of students that may leave and seek other opportunities. So the idea behind a hold harmless for a year or two, which is all it is for districts of a certain size, is just to help them with some impact on scale because, look, districts need a reading specialist, they need a math specialist, they need

Starting point is 00:05:48 special needs staff. For large districts, I think the top 25 districts in student population in the state represent almost 46 percent of the total six million kids in the state. So that's 25 districts, but you have almost 1,200 other districts that can't scale impact that way. The net-net of it is we haven't seen states that have adopted ESAs even really having those ESAs used in rural areas. So if that's the case, then the hold harmless is not going to really cost anything because the other states in the nation that have adopted ESAs, we haven't really seen the rural areas using them, but it's there in case it's needed. I don't know if that provision would really continue to travel based on if the house were

Starting point is 00:06:41 to send us something back, but it was a starting point. Okay. And I want to kind of talk a little more about these ESAs because the ESAs, they go directly to the school or the organization, right? It's run through the comptroller. There's a education assistant organization approval process. Is that correct? That's correct. And so can you tell us a little bit about what are going to be some of the requirements to get approval to be on this list? Sure. So the ESOs or the education service organizations, they would be approved by the

Starting point is 00:07:19 comptroller. There would be weigh-in from the TEA. But at the end of the day, they need to be either established, you know, schools with a track record that either by accreditation or by other eligibility, it shows that they're real and they can provide what students need. If it's a new startup, then it would be certain criteria and base eligibility related to criteria that just shows that they have a path to victory, right? They have a path to success as other schools have shown when they've started. So both of those are very important for the use of the ESA. And then there's sort of an a la carte list related to uniforms and tutorials and transportation that's also within that framework that the student could rely on, which is why it's an education savings account and not a voucher. Right. So some of that criteria that you're saying, transportation, teachers, is there any specifics like the type of transportation, the number of teachers,

Starting point is 00:08:33 the type of accreditation they may need? Do you have any insight on that yet? Or is that something you guys are still working through? Well, tutorial requirements in the bill, yes, there's eligibility there. There's requirements for who can teach and who can't. The bill's drafted in a way. It's very measured, and I think from anti-fraud provisions to eligibility, it's probably the most comprehensive, well-thought-out blueprint for an expansion of school choice that any state's ever launched. Florida's in their fourth iteration over 20 years.

Starting point is 00:09:11 They started out with a really small pilot on special needs, just serving a couple thousand kids. Arizona is in their third iteration over 30 years. They started out with a really small pilot that served special needs kids, maybe a few thousand. This launch for Texas for the first time ever would serve between 60 and 65,000 kids. And it would be, based on the amendments that I put on the bill in the Senate, it would be inclusive of current private school kids now as well, not just those that have been in public school for a year or longer. Right. Well, I wanted to ask about some of the amendments that went onto the bill because

Starting point is 00:09:59 we know Texas Congressman Chip Roy, he's been very supportive of school choice. Sure. And especially your plan. But he also has talked about school choice needing to be universal. So is there the amendments that you've tacked on, does that address this universal school choice issue? Or is this something that you guys are going to have to work through? Well, look, anyone that's guys are going to have to work through? Well, look,

Starting point is 00:10:30 anyone that's for school choice would love to see full universal school choice, right? But obviously Chip has only been in Congress for a couple of years. He and myself and many others that are school choice advocates that we all understand that you, just as Florida and Arizona and 30 other states have found, you can't start out always where you want to be, right? So we don't find any other state that started out with homeschool. And in Texas, we've had a split between the homeschool organizations on whether or not they wanted to be in the bill. So we started out with a measured approach to help, you know, kids in tragic situations in public schools that have continued to fail, right? And then on the Senate floor, I expanded the bill to be able to cover current private school kids. That is more universal in nature. Now, it's interesting to me with Chip's comments

Starting point is 00:11:27 and a few others on who is in and who is out. It's fascinating to me that the Senate for years has sent small little special needs ESAs over to the House that had served maybe 1,500, 2,000 kids, a tiny little tax credit, and those bills have just been shoved in a drawer, right? They haven't gone anywhere. But no one at any point in time with those tiny little school choice bills screamed, hey, you left me out. No one did. Where was everyone on that conversation, right? Silent. But when we advance the most comprehensive, inclusive school choice bill in the nation as a start for any state in history, we had many saying, hey, wait, it's not it doesn't go far enough. We wanted to start with the bones and the architecture that we could build from there. But if we can't even get that passed, it's a little bit early to say, hey, it's not good enough.

Starting point is 00:12:31 Does that make sense? Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I wanted to talk a little bit about the dynamics between the Senate and the House. And as we know, ESAs and the House budget, they passed the amendment that would not allow money to go to ESA. So you're on the conference committee. Yes. Correct.

Starting point is 00:12:53 And so what do you see as a solution to that? What's on your mind? You know, I've got great respect for my colleagues in the House. I served in the House for eight years, and I understand the difference between a budget writer or a budget amendment, let's say, on the floor of the House, considering the overall budget, that just has blanket language, and you have to weigh up or down, am I for that or am I not, versus seeing real deal points. And I feel like that even members of the House that may have voted for that amendment to the budget, so voted for it and against school

Starting point is 00:13:35 choice, I think that there are some open minds, open hearts on the concept of school choice among many of those members, but they need to see the deal, right? They need to see the details because the public expects us not just to vote for concepts and captions and unicorns, right? They expect us to vote based on the specifics, the details, and exactly what the impact is to our districts. And I feel like that once certain deal points are presented in a measured, you know, way that ties to specific dollars, that some of those members that voted for that budget amendment might also support the ESA. They just have to see the deal. Right. And so how does that process work? How do those details get to those members that might have voted against it? Through the hearing. And I think that because

Starting point is 00:14:38 that budget vote in the House on the, I believe it was a Herrero amendment. I believe that that was for some members, and this is just my opinion. I'm over in the Senate, but again, with great respect for the House and also having been a House member for eight years, I know that casting a vote on a broad subject without any deal points or details is very different than when a hearing might produce a bill that would travel through calendars and go onto the House floor for consideration and debate. There might be a different outcome once those members actually see, you know, what am I voting on? Right. And what is the impact to my community? And some members might say, you know, the school choice provisions don't go far enough, so I'm a no.

Starting point is 00:15:35 Some members might say that those school choice provisions go too far, so I'm a no. So the deal matters. And Royce West, in debate on the Senate floor, when he asked me about that Herrero Amendment vote, it had just taken place a few hours before. And I think our debate on SB8, on the ESA and parental rights, lasted between six and seven hours. And that was my answer to him, is Royce, no one's going to negotiate against themselves. They have to see the deal. Right. Well, education just doesn't end at K through 12. It goes all the way to college. And you've been spearheading the end of college tenure, along with Lieutenant Governor. And so why does it have so much support from you and the Lieutenant

Starting point is 00:16:24 Governor in the Senate? Why is there so much support from you and the lieutenant governor in the Senate? Why is there so much support behind ending college tenure? You know, we've looked at tenure for quite a while now. I was asked to be the higher education chairman in the Senate a couple of sessions back when there was a change made on Kel Seliger, you know, being chair in the past. And then there was a change made there where the lieutenant governor asked me to serve. And now the committees are combined, the public education committee and the higher education committee. But even last session, as a relatively new chair for higher ed,

Starting point is 00:17:00 I held extensive hearings on a complete wholesale review of tenure on the Texas University campus itself and just why do we have it? Why do we need it? What are the consequences of tenure up to this point? And what should we do going forward? Should we revise it? Should we keep status quo or should we, you know, remove it altogether? And I think those hearings produced quite a bit of updates for our membership that just continued to bring great concern as to what was veiled in the concept of tenure, which is really for many universities is not a contract,

Starting point is 00:17:47 it's more of a concept. It's a property right and permanent compensation that no matter what your conduct is, basically, you're just unbridled to, even if it's damaging the brand of the university itself, you know, able to do what you want to do under the excuse of academic freedom, right? And we're all for free speech. But how does Cambridge and Oxford and even MD Anderson in Houston that is the best in the world at what it does in research and teaching and in clinical, how do they, among other examples, provide the best learning environments, research efforts, and results in the world? How do they do it without tenure? And even the American Academy of College Professors just a few months ago sanctioned

Starting point is 00:18:40 MD Anderson for not offering lifetime tenure. But I think what they see there is that they're threatened by the fact that we can move forward with the best professors in the world through compensation and a very good employment contract to accomplish what we need. But tenure is not necessarily something we have to keep. Right. Well, like you mentioned, there's been some pushback in the committee hearings and from some of your fellow Democratic senators. And so what would you say in response to those that say college tenure is necessary, professors are going to leave? What would your response be to that? You know, we had a very good debate on that subject on the Senate floor. You know, and I would mention that for my bill to remove tenure, I had bipartisan support, right?

Starting point is 00:19:35 So anyone that hasn't watched on simulcast the closing remarks by Senator Blanco from El Paso. They really need to. But tenure and DEI tie together for me. Tenure, and also I would add the ban on teaching critical race theory in higher education. All three of those bills are inextricably tied together. They're not accomplishing, as far as tenure is concerned, what it was originally intended to accomplish. But I think our universities are very worried in an arms race about removal of tenure if the rest of the country is going to keep it. But again, in my opinion, I think we have the resources to pay well. We have the brightest minds on these campuses to draft an impenetrable contract that makes people feel comfortable about their rights for employment. tech, what we've seen recently, and just conduct at some of our other universities that tenure is, if anything, destructive, and we can leave it in the rearview mirror. Right. Well, you mentioned DEI and how the tenure and DEI bills, they kind of work together in your mind, right? And so could you tell me why has there been some pushback on eliminating a lot of

Starting point is 00:21:04 these DEI? Because a lot of these universities have these DEI departments. why has there been some pushback on eliminating a lot of these DEI? Because a lot of these universities have these DEI departments. Why has there been pushback? You know, I think it's like anything else. Once something is so ingrained in the culture of a business organization or of a university campus, it's deeply rooted and it's hard to get rid of that. We're seeing that with ESG and the corporate world. We're seeing that with DEI at the university level. But one thing is certain, especially with the DEI bill, which speaks directly to hiring of faculty, that we have

Starting point is 00:21:42 dismal results under DEI for diverse outcomes in the hiring of minority faculty. But what we do see as results that are very clear is that diversity, equity, and inclusion departments with 379 employees alone at the University of Texas that claim a DEI title to their job description, we're seeing that millions and millions of dollars are being spent, and if anything, it's exclusive. It chills free speech through these loyalty oaths and diversity statements that are required for new applicants for faculty positions. It mandates pronoun training, and other outcomes where at Del Seton under the University of Texas umbrella, you're directed through published content in those trainings to capitalize B for black in any reference in writing, but to lowercase w for white in any use of the word as a reference to

Starting point is 00:22:49 ethnicity. At A&M, there were Asian American students were excluded from DEI strategies at Texas Tech. It's been very exclusionary as well with very bright line examples. We have litigation against medical schools in Texas right now because of the weaponization of diversity, equity, and inclusion and compelling speech rather than allowing free speech. That's not what anybody thought when they first heard of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And for those that fight for equal outcomes over equal opportunity, they're really missing the mark on our country's founding principles overall. And they're finding that this agenda is taking us backwards in the search for diverse outcomes. That's the end of our free portion of our interview with Senator Brandon Creighton.

Starting point is 00:23:44 Thank you so much for listening. To hear the full version, where we talk about the preemption bill and the possibility of a special session, click the link in the description below. you

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The Texan Podcast - Sen. Brandon Creighton on School Choice, House and Senate Dynamics, Public University Tenure

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