The Therapy Edit - Ask Anna - I cannot stand my in-laws

Episode Date: January 27, 2025

In this Monday episode of the Ask Anna series, Anna is joined by the hilarous Helen Thorn and Ellie Gibson, AKA The Scummy Mummies.Together Anna, Helen and Ellie tackle the following connundrum: "Hey Anna. I cannot stand my in-laws. They undermine my parenting and make comments about my weight. My husband doesn't stand up for me as he wants to keep peace. What can we do so that at least me and him aren't at loggerheads over it all?"Ellie Gibson and Helen Thorn joined forces to become The Scummy Mummies in 2013. They have since gone on to produce an award-winning podcast, a sell-out touring comedy show, a popular book, and their own range of merchandise. They have an ever-growing social media presence, with more than 160,000 followers on Instagram.There are now over 200 episodes of The Scummy Mummies Podcast, and they have been downloaded more than 5 million times in 150 countries. The show has featured in “Best Podcast” lists in The Guardian, the Sunday Times, and The Telegraph. It has been nominated for a British Podcasts Award plus Mixcloud and Lovies awards, and in 2020 won the Glomama UK Best Podcast trophy.

Welcome to The Therapy Edit. I'm your host, Psychotherapist and author Anna Martha. I will be bringing you bite-sized episodes twice a week full of tips, wise words from expert guests and insights to support your mental well-being. Hi everyone. Welcome to today's Ask Anna episode of the Therapy Edit where I invite a guest or in this case some guests to talk through one of your Ask Anna questions. and today we're talking in-laws. And I am so excited because I have with me the scummy mummies on tour from their hotel. They've got shows on.

They are an amazing comedy duo. I have been to watch them and highly recommend it. Do some pelvic floor exercises beforehand for sure. But Ellie Gibson and Helen Thorn are just celebrated for their honest take on parenting. I found them years ago on the grid. And they were the only people at that point, if I remember rightly, probably about trying to think how many years ago, maybe eight years ago I found you, who were just talking about

the rougher sides of motherhood in a really funny, relatable way. And yeah, amongst all the shine, I was just so grateful for them and continue to be. So they have a hit podcast, they have live shows, best-selling books. They embrace the chaos, a family life, with wit and relatable anecdotes. Ellie and Helen tackle everything from sleepless nights to school runs, offering laughter and solidarity to parents everywhere. So welcome. I mean, I was sat with you not long ago, wasn't I doing your podcast? Yes, yes.

And we love having you on Anna because you're an excellent podcast guest. You've been on a couple of times, haven't you? And I highly recommend people go and listen to the Scummy Mummy's Anna Maffa episodes because, yeah, they're excellent. Some of our guests are rubbish, that's what I'm saying, but you're very good. I would say top ten. The top ten, brilliant. Top five would be better, but I'll take it.

And that's out of 300 episodes, Anna. That's quite bold. I don't think she's actually thought that through, if I'm being completely honest. But let's go with it. No, no, no. I mean that, actually. Because I always like getting the very smart guests on,

which I categorise Anna into. Because I feel like, you know, I just feel like I've progressed as a human. I've upgraded myself by listening to your wisdom. Yes. I like having guests where at the end, I feel like either I've had like some free therapy or like I've read a book without having to actually read a book.

And with you, like, it's both, it's two for one. You're very good family. Time saver therapy, put the bit down. Also, I like, I'm feeling like I'm on the right track. You know, when you just say, and this is a good way of parenting. I'm like, sometimes I do that. So that made me feel at a sense of peace. Thank you very much, Anna.

Oh, you're so welcome. Do you know what I'm a very good person, Anna. Oh, I don't know if I would get that review from everyone in my house. So last night, I am sat opposite a bin with a guitar, a plastic one. toy one that I broke last night because I got whacked with it too many times I threw it against the bathroom floor so my kids wouldn't give the same review but but I do feel like that's a lesson learned isn't it if you keep hitting me with a thing it will get broken that's what's going to happen I can you have my complete sympathy yeah yeah honestly thank you and also what do you

what do you always say rupture and repair yes or just rupture and break I I definitely there was some repair happening after that, after the shutters, the door. I regularly, annually, I get driven mad by balloons, because I don't know why we even keep doing it, but when it's their birthday, we often have, like, balloons in the kitchen, not fancy helium ones, just blow up balloons, you know, and then the balloons will sort of float around the house for up to, like, six weeks. And just very irritatingly, the kids will come in and start battering around them around. Like, when I'm carrying a tray of hot fat and roast potatoes or just, just trying to do, like, you know, change your light bulb, they'll just come in and start.

battering it at my head and I have been known to take a kitchen knife and stab a balloon to death before. Who hasn't? Who hasn't? Well, thank you. Thank you. The helium ones are the worst because they follow you around. They're very creepy. You just turn around and they're there and pop around and punch bags. But it's easy to get rid of them because you can go, oh kids, let's do the funny thing where you inhale the helium and it makes your voice squeaky, which who knows probably is really bad for you. Probably gives you lung cancer. Don't try this at home. But yeah, don't take my word for it. But. but then at least, at least you can get rid of them.

And then they go, oh, the boon's gone, you go, yep, so it's good. It's now shibbled in the bin. So today we are chatting in-laws, and I'm going to play the voice note from this guest, because I want to hear your take on it. Hi, Anna. I can't stand my in-laws. They undermine my parenting and make comments about my weight. My husband doesn't stand up for me as he wants to keep peace. What can we do so that at least me and him aren't at loggerheads over at all?

Wow. So from not being able to stand balloons to not being able to stand in-laws, where do you stand on this? What do you want to say? I mean, this is a very difficult situation because you should be a team. You should be a team as a couple. And also a good spouse, a very strong spouse, if you're in a loving, healthy relationship, should be your biggest challenge. who should think you're amazing who you are the priority and when you feel like your your feelings don't matter or that they're prioritising their parents over you that is a massive rupture in your relationship so I can understand how hurtful that is that I could have written that confession or you know problem myself because that that happened to me that they would make comments on my weight and and my ex-husband never stood up for me so I I understand that position obviously now I'm divorced and very happy that is one option for that lady obviously

she doesn't need to hear that now but I think those honest conversations need to be had because I think it's not an either-or situation like he has to support her otherwise you know that will bleed into other aspects of their relationship because she doesn't feel like she's being supported yes I think yeah I think he's being obviously quite rubbish and not staring standing up to his parents but there might be just lots of reasons to do with that not necessarily good ones, but about his relationship with him and how historically he's never stood up to them or whatever. So maybe it's too hard to do that thing of, you know, when his mum or dad says something dreadful, to kind of go, hey, that's not acceptable. Maybe he's frightened of the

conflict that will ensue or whatever. In which case, I would talk to him about, you know, I'd say, look, I find it really hurtful when this happens. And maybe, you know, if you can't stand up in the moment for me, for whatever reason, can we look at other ways that you, you know, I'd say, you could, that we could manage this just to stop it happening. So, for example, okay, maybe not when we're sitting around the dinner table, but after dinner, when you're doing the washing up or whatever it is, could you take your mum to one side and go, hey, just so you know, when you said that, I didn't like it. And again, not putting it all on you, but just kind of just to quietly manage it like that.

But I don't, I don't know, I just feel, well, you know more about this than us, I'm because you're an actual expert, but it feels like families have different ways of dealing with things, don't they? And you think what happens in your family is normal. So I grew up thinking it was quite normal to have quite a lot of rouse and quite a lot of wine with lunch and like, like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then sort of sort of sort of sort of sort of sort of sort of sort of sort of, and then sort of sort of sort of, you know, not talking about things, not dealing with things. So I was quite relatively old when I realized that not everybody lives like me. Do you know what I mean? Like in a sort of really arrogant way.

So I don't know. What do you think, Hannah? Am I talking rubbish? I think sometimes we, no, no, not rubbish at all. That's brilliant insight. I love it. I think sometimes we want to protect a relationship, but actually that relationship's already causing pain. Like we don't want to have these difficult conversations because we don't want that rupture, whereas actually the cost of that is, is that one person or two people or one of those relationships are carrying all of that pain. We're basically protecting people from the consequences of their words. So they never have to be held accountable. Yeah. And it's not. And that the judge was on the way is, you know, that that person is constantly feeling like she's not good enough.

for the mother-in-law or not good enough for the in-laws and that's a horrible feeling that you know when you're making those sort of value judgments on people and then yeah and that that you know that just bleeds in I mean can they have it do they have to have Christmas with their in-laws if they can't be nice to them then you know how do you how do you have a situation where you feel like or you have Christmas at a restaurant or you don't invite them into your house if they can't behave properly or invite other people what I've done. Ah, dilute yes. I found that certain family members of mine will often behave better in terms of like just keeping it on the down there a little bit. If there are other people who aren't family or who, you know, friends or relatives or by marriage or non-blood relatives,

I have actually found that the more of those we have around, the calmer things tend to be because there is a sort of civil contract of politeness and not being rude. and it's a little harder to fall back into those old patterns that you've grown up with. That's sad, though. That's sad, though. You have to have Jerry from next door there of Sunday lunch because, and also the reason it's sad is that it shows that that family member is aware, has an awareness that that way of talking or behaving isn't okay.

And it's a choice to be a bastard, yes. I think, yes, you're right. It is sad. I think I'm just trying to think of different strategies because we don't know the situation that closely, I mean, because I don't want to put it on this person who's written this message, right, or left this note, but there's a bit of me that kind of wants to say, well, why don't you stand up to them? Why don't you say, hey, Judith, or whatever it is, you know, I find it a bit hurtful when you say that and, you know, I'd rather we didn't talk about my weight,

but just rather that wasn't a topic of conversation. And I feel bad for saying that's saying, no, you sort it out because her husband should be doing it. It's better for him to do it. But if he's not going to do it, I think you're faced with a choice. I think you're either going to have to put up with it or tell them to go fuck themselves. There's a lot of fear here, isn't there? Fear, fear of the consequences of being honest. But, yeah, I think introducing someone else into the mix and seeing whether that behaviour changes.

And if so, it says that the mother-in-law or the father-in-law is aware that making comments about your way is not. ideal so they will not do it in front of other people so yeah because i'm wondering whether they're aware or whether it's just so ingrained in how they see the world that actually it feels very normal for them to speak and challenge someone in that way and talk about weight openly or whether they actually know that's not okay but no boundaries ever been held so they just keep doing it because they've never had to be held accountable because it's just been absorbed that hurts been absorbed and taken home, probably been a row in the car on the way home for not being supported. Yeah, I think sometimes it's a generational thing. And again, this is not to justify

it. This is not to say, therefore it's okay. But I think, especially if older generations, it was more acceptable to say things, to use words like fat or to comment on someone's appearance than our generation would. And that, you know, like I've got a family member recently, we were talking to two about therapy. And he was like, well, whatever happened to pull yourself together? And it was like, well, you all ended up divorced. And like with depression and alcoholism, that's what happened. So, you know, it's different generational perspectives and way of talking about things.

And you don't have to, I think, accept that. For example, I certainly wouldn't accept racism. I hate that argument that, oh, well, it was a different time. No, you're not allowed to say those things anymore. You're not because they're wrong. So shut up. So, you know, but I think it's, but it's about how you, sort of explain that, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, that whole thing about, well, the past is in the past and we've all moved on. If you haven't, we interviewed the wonderful Philippa Perry on the podcast, and she said, the past is with you. The past is present, like the way you behave, the way you react to things. All the trauma and all that is still there.

Unless you deal with it, unless you actually confront it, it's there and it's informing the decisions. it's informing the conversations you make. And so when people say, oh, it's too late, it's not because they are here with you. All of those things are there, and they are constantly triggered by that. And again, and it's probably the, you know,

the mother-in-law, the father-in-law projecting their own insecurities onto, you know, it's about them, and it. It's always about them. Sometimes it's envy. Like, sometimes it's jealousy. You know, if they speak to their daughter-in-law in that way, then there's a chance that. the way they speak to each other may not always be supportive, you know, may reflect that

a little bit. And maybe there is envy that, I just think sometimes jealousy and envy can be a play when there is a marriage that isn't happy. And then you're seeing your child have a really happy and fulfilling seemingly relationship. I think both ways are hard. You carry on this relationship. You're constantly having to absorb the criticism and absorb the undermining. And you're carrying that and it's impacting your relationship or you have an open dialogue you bring it out into the open you place a boundary you say that you know you might feel like this is okay but actually it's not okay for me and it's impacting my desire to spend time with you and then you you can't control how they might respond or how they it could go well it could be like oh we're sorry we didn't

even realize that you were feeling this way it could go it could go well but it could not and it could cause further rupture but both ways are hard right there's no easy i've sometimes found when you confront someone with something they're initially defensive about it and like i don't know what you're talking about or how dare you but then actually sometimes they go away and then maybe that's a very awkward afternoon but then they go away and they might even come back to you in a couple of days going do you know i've thought about it actually and i feel bad about it and and that's and there's a shift that way and i think i'm i was thinking about your thing and i'm so i was thinking it sounds like this person maybe is frightened of not being liked a little bit.

And I don't mean that as a judgment. I mean, we've all got that, right? That's a normal human response. You've written about it. Loads, Anna, and like, you said on our podcast the other week, you know, you like this phrase, so what? And I've thought about that a lot. And I wonder if the person could follow this line of thinking.

So let's say, I say to Judith and Roger, I don't know why I'm going to call you for Roger, but I like it. I'm going with it. I'll say to Judith and Roger, look, I find it really uncomfortable when you comment on my way, do you mind not just talking about appearance? And they might be all huffy, puffy and blah, blah, blah. But so what? Do you know what I mean?

They might go upstairs and close the door and go, well, I can't believe she said that. So what? They might even decide they don't like you. So what? You don't like them. Like, you don't like them. Yeah. Because they're not, they're terrible people.

So what does it matter really what they think of you? If they walk away, going, well, that's it. We're never having her around for Christmas dinner again. Absolute bonus. brilliant, let's all go to Lanzar Rottie next year. Not a problem. Yeah. The relationship's already difficult, isn't it? It's already difficult, but it's impacting, it's impacting the marriage. And I think, obviously, as a therapist, I think marriage therapy would be brilliant for these two, because sometimes it, it's really... Here she goes, hawking her wares again.

Just 29.99. Actually, my mum, my mum is the marriage answer. She's absolutely brilliant. And she, yeah, I think sometimes just really unpicking and being able to explain how it feels to have your partner just try and keep the peace because what goes unvalidated, what goes, no matter how much he might sit there in the car on the way home and go, yeah, that was not okay. When someone isn't standing up to you and drawing that boundary and you, for whatever reason, don't feel able to do it as a couple or for yourself, then, yeah, they're not kind of like advocating for you. They're wanting to protect that relationship over saying something isn't okay when it isn't okay.

So I think, yeah, otherwise it just causes it causes rupture in your relationship because you felt unsupported. There's probably resentment. You're probably bracing yourself going into those situations and watching to see how the other person responds, feeling hurt that they can see it going on. But don't want to name it. It's already difficult, painful and complicated. Yeah. because that was my other thought because my thought was like

can you look at it as sort of acceptance if you don't want to cause a rupture and you can't make your husband cause a rupture do you look at it as well look I can't control other people I can't control what they say and I certainly can't control what they think so all I can control is how I feel

about what they do so I'm going to accept that they're going to say these nutty things and I'm just going to go to that calm place inside me and think that's not really about me, that's about them, there's a whole other family dynamic here has existed for decades, it's actually nothing to do with me and I just like can privately disengage from it and not let it, try and not let stress me out. But I do think there's two

problems with that. One is, well, feelings are feelings. You can't just decide not to feel hurt. You can't just decide not to be upset. And two is I worry that that over time, and again, you tell me, you would know, Anna, that over time if that will build up resentment. So I used to have in sort of the workplace situations, not necessarily at my work, but when I was a video games journalist and I was surrounded by men in all sorts of contexts all the time, again, not really my colleagues, but other men would sometimes say sexist things or demeaning things. And the men who were my friends wouldn't always stand up for me. And then, but then afterwards, like we were on the train home, whatever, in the taxi, they'd be like, oh, that was

really awful when he said that. And I didn't like that. And I'd go, yeah, where was this guy two hours ago. So why didn't you say that? And I think over time that can make you sort of, it can just, yeah, you end up storing up a bit of resentment and maybe it just gets worse, I don't know. Yeah. Like there's something inauthentic if that person

feels that strongly but wasn't able but didn't act that, didn't act on that in the moment. I suddenly had this memory of being on a train with a friend probably no word of alive about 15 years ago, maybe longer. And someone said something to her, someone that was

sat near us and she she just turned around and said excuse me what did you say and she knew very well what they'd said but she made them say it again and it was so i was like amazed because it was so powerful that person had said something really flippant and rude and just assumed they'd got away with it but that all she did was ask them to say it again and in saying it again you could see they felt uncomfortable because they had to say that thing again and they knew that it had an edge of not being okay. And she just bought it to the forefront. So I just wonder if something like that, you know, if there's a comment about the weight, you know, should you be eating that? So it's, sorry, what did you say? And then it draws attention

to that. Yeah. And just makes them. Because that's also a well-known technique comedians use with hecklers. So if a heckler, everyone does it. Like, it's a really common strategy. If a heckler says something, exactly as you're saying, you ask them to repeat it. which serves two purposes. One is nothing is funny the second time you say it. And as you say, it's often just weird and exposed as being a stupid thing to say. But also it gives you the comedian, or in this case, the sort of victim, as it were, it gives you a second to think about your response.

Because it just gives you a cut, your brain gets a couple more seconds while they're repeating it to process it and work out what you're going to say back. And that little time can be enough to come back with a funny comeback or a good put down and it's it's you're just buying yourself a bit of time yeah and accountability to that person for what they just said because when you have to repeat it the chances are an extra person is going to be listening to what you're saying so you then it's not just a slight comment to that one person you you've most likely added another set of ears for that person to think actually how do I feel saying this again oh my gosh that's a bit awkward I wish I hadn't said that in the

first face and you're just getting that person to sit with those words in a different way? Yeah. Maybe that could be one. No, I think so. And also, I mean, I don't know if this person has children or not, but I think being able to articulate your feelings in a calm way is excellent modelling for your children.

So if you've, because otherwise you are teaching your children just to absorb that negativity, which is not great. And I grew up in a house with very little conflict. And I'm very, very conflict adverse. and I find it very difficult but I'm getting better but I think if I you know I only saw my mum

confront my dad when she was at her when she'd been ground down and then she'd have an outburst and she just oh enough instead of just saying I don't like it how you say you know I don't like how you're talking to me or I don't like it when you do this but then it just built up and exploded

but I think I think good modelling is when you think no that that comment made me feel really uncomfortable please please stop doing that or I don't know what you mean when you say that but that's that's not how we speak to each other in this house these are our ground rules or these are our values um you know please stop doing that yeah um yeah yeah so if there's fear of conflict here which I'm that's what I'm sensing in the boys now and she talks about parenting being undermined but actually conflict as you just said there it doesn't have to be this sometimes we're fearful of conflict because historically maybe it's felt explosive or threatening

or, you know, just steamrolling, where actually we can do it gently. And what you're saying there is, you know, you can just state it. It doesn't have to be a big all-out war. And even if that person responds, you know, with the emotion and that aggression that perhaps you've been fearful of, you don't have to lurch into that. You can just restate what you've just said and stay grounded. Yeah. And I think, I do think that's, I think.

The thing is, if you don't sort of let it out, it will eventually come out at some point. Again, as I think you said, Anna, like a sort of fireball, which can be really frightening and more upsetting for the people around you. Because, again, I'm quite generally, blah, blah, blah, quite moody, and I like to complain about things. You're doing it wrong, quite all the time, which has its own problems. I'm not saying that's a great way to go about the world. I would much rather be much more calmer about expressing what I want to need. but my husband is much more calmer and will just kind of quietly

just go along with things but then like eventually he'll just sort of lose his rag and it's really sort of frightening like I don't mean he starts spraying things or anything but like he just get like shouting and when someone is never shouting and never sort of you know demanding

and suddenly it all but boils over that can be really frightening and really sort of like whoa you know that's not the rules you're not supposed to do this Are you're supposed to be the sort of calm, nice one? What are you doing? And it's really unnerving. So you're not actually doing anyone as service, I think, by just pushing it down, pushing it down and then going, blah.

Because I just sort of go, all right, mate, I'm going to, I'll just be over here. I'll be over here when you've stopped. It's that internalising, isn't it? It's all the stuff that goes unsaid and unexpressed and just internalised. And we think, you know, sometimes we can be fooled into things. that actually is gone that it's not an issue anymore that we've you know we've just smoothed over the cracks when actually it's like sweeping stuff under the rug and the rug gets really really lumpy and one day we're just going to fall flat on our face yes it's all just going to be

you know it's going to be even more hurtful coming out sideways so much there so much there lots of validating words lots of advice um yeah and just it's a it's a hard and complicated situation but both ways both ways are difficult swallowing it all down feeling hurt resenting your partner for not studying up for you just probably pulling back on how much you want to see family you know that's all hard but then having a conversation that you cannot control the outcome of that's hard too but probably the only way that there is a chance of changing changing the relationship in some way and challenging challenging this behavior sure at least that has a chance of being a short-term solution, whereas the other ways is a long-term sort of tolerance.

Yeah. Within the marriage, within the relationship and within kind of that family time. Thank you so much. Yeah. For your wisdom. I'm picking up with me. Oh, I've loved it. I'm so pleased we save that woman's marriage.

You're welcome. Well, we have. We should do it again. We should save all the marriages, all the relationships. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Just right to me, all your problems. I got him. Yeah.

Basically, yeah. Well, thank you. Where are you off to? Are you doing a show tonight as well? Always. We're in Winchester tonight, tomorrow night. Wells in Somerset and then Leatherhead. Yes.

Friday. And then two nights in Cambridge next week. And then the last night in everyone's favorite town, Benendon. Benendon. Benendon. Benendon. Bent, lovely Kent. But then in 2025.

Go on. And we're doing a massive, a brand new show. called Hot Mess and a massive UK tour. We're going to lots of our favourite places where we've been before, but also we're trying to go to some new places, but all over the country, brand new show, new jokes, new songs, new catsuits.

Ah, same old slags. Yeah, that's what we should do. That's it. Everyone go, are there tour dates up already or not yet? We're working. I think the tour dates are sort of up. Not all the tickets are on sale, but it's all, we're trying.

It's very hard to coordinate, like 50 different theatres and send them all the pictures and get them all the websites, get all the things. But we're on it, you're on it. But social media is probably the best place to find you, isn't it? To find out where that's going on. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining me.

I've loved talking to you, as always. Thanks for having us. Good luck with a tour. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to The Therapy Edit today. If you enjoyed it, please do take a sec to like and subscribe

so we can share the words further. and wider. If you have an ask Anna question or an anonymous confession for the Confessions from the Therapy Room episodes, head to anamatha.com and click on the podcast tab to submit. Want more, grab a copy of my most recent book, The Uncomfortable Truth, change your life by taming 10 of your mind's greatest fears, or enjoy some of the video and downloadable resources on my website, tackling everything from burnout to driving anxiety. So until the next episode, goodbye. Thank you.