The Therapy Edit - Ask Anna - I can't find my way back to normal

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

In this Monday episode of the Ask Anna series, Anna is joined by actor, author and mental health and black right advocate, David Harewood..Together Anna and David tackle the following connundrum: ''I'm recovering from a serious mental health breakdown and I'm really struggling to find a way back to normality. I feel so much better in myself and my thoughts and mind are clear, but what's happened has impacted my relationships and my friends and family all act differently around me. How can I get back to the life that seemed much simpler before?"David Harewood was awarded an OBE in 2023 for his services to drama and mental health advocacy. His career as an actor and documentary presenter spans 40 years. He works in both the UK and America and he has appeared in shows such as HOMELAND, THE NIGHT MANAGER, SUPERGIRL and BLOOD DIAMOND.On stage he’s appeared as Martin Luther King in the award-winning play The Mountaintop and he was the first Black actor to play Othello at the Royal National Theatre. He delivered the 2023 Richard Dimbleby Lecture and was recently made President of The Royal Academy of Dramatic Art.

Welcome to the Therapy Edit. I'm your host, Psychotherapist and author Anna Martha. I will be bringing you bite-sized episodes twice a week full of tips, wise words from expert guests and insights to support your mental well-being. Hi everyone. Thank you so much for joining our Ask Anna episode of The Therapy Edit and I'm really excited about today's because I have with me a movie star. I've got David Harewood. He is a British actor and he's actually, he trained in, went to university in Birmingham, which is where I was born in that area of the country. I was born in Birmingham. I didn't go to university. I went to drama school in London. You went to drama school, yeah. In London. I was born in Birmingham. Where were you born in? Bromsgrave. So just outside. And moved to Oxford.

Yeah, well, we weren't there for long. My dad was in the police force. Okay. In Birmingham. Yeah. So we then kind of moved out to Herefordshire way, but you used to go to the ball ring. Although that probably wasn't there when you were. No, of course it was, yes. Of course it was, yes. It was the very, very famous ball ring, yes. The ball ring.

I'm not sure when that was built, but that was like our Christmas shopping. We'd go in with my granddad. 100%. Yeah, absolutely. I was there every Saturday. Every Saturday on the bus. Social life as well probably sent a lot.

Well, mine certainly did around shops. But I saw you on Homeland. That was my first introduction to you. Just loved Homeland. So you were in Homeland? Yeah, it was great fun. Yeah. It was, it came just at the right time for me because I was, I was, I hadn't worked for like nine months.

And I was in a very, very bad, very bad place. And just out of the blue, Homeland landed on my lap. And as they say, it's always darkest before dawn. Yeah. And I guess as a, you know, you must be so creatively minded as am I that when you're not kind of outworking that in an area of life that you love. Is that challenging? No, actually I'm, I guess because I'm older now, I sort of, I yearn for days like this or I can sit, put my feet up and do nothing. Because sometimes I feel like when it, when it gets, because I'm in this place now because I do

so many different things and acting and documentary making and presenting and producing and stuff like that, but the phone sort of never stops ringing. So I get asked to do lots of different things. And occasionally, I just want to turn the phone off and sit in a dark room. Oh, it's needed sometimes, though, isn't it? That damn regulation when, yeah, when you're switched on and switched on. So you also played the Martian Manhunter in Supergirl, which I have not seen. Should I put that on my list? Depends. I mean, it's mainly for, you know, teenagers and young people, I think. Although lots of adults do watch it, but it's sort of popcorn television. I like that though, yeah, I like that.

And my, I've got kind of preteen. I've got a preteen. So I really enjoy watching stuff with them that is quite engaging and has that, yeah, for adults as well. Otherwise, it's all just, yeah, see BBC. So I'll look out for that and see if my oldest enjoys it. So, yeah, you've just done so many different things. You're in the bill, blood diamonds, psychovil, and then you're also a real passionate advocate for mental health awareness

and that's drawing on your own personal experience that you've already shared a little bit about so yeah busy but also we're down down calm a quiet days with the dog and you've got the dog here he's right there so you can't quite see him he's just out of frame but he's decided to come and join me

and he was scratching the door trying to get in so I thought I had to let him in path of least resistance and he cut him for nine years and I was just saying before we hit record that my kids are so keen for a dog and I love walking like you do so it seems like that could be quite a natural next step oh you should do it it's although the kids were screaming for this dog but they've never once taken him for a walk it's always me in the rain and the cold and the bitter

freezing deep with mid winter I know it gets you out all the time I don't mind as long as I've got a warm coat on exactly I think I have to be prepared that if we do get a dog it will be me at the end of the day, no matter what the kids promise they'll do, it will fall to me. It will be you. I'm quite excited. I'm thawing on the dog, on the dog topic. So you're here today to answer and ask an question that we have got, which comes in the form of a voice now, which I'm about to play.

I'm recovering from a serious mental health breakdown, and I'm really struggling to find a way back to normality. I feel so much better in myself, and my thoughts and my mind are clear. but what's happened has impacted my relationships and my friends and family all act differently around me. How can I get back to the life that seemed so much simpler before? Oh, it's a big question. I mean, I've got many kind of thoughts that have, yeah,

come out of that and was just wondering what your first sense was. Well, I mean, look, when I had my breakdown, I like to call it a breakthrough to be. with you because I think it was a new beginning for me and I think it's a new beginning for those who have it they just have to find

that sort of for me it was like the idea was I knew there was a pot of gold in this experience in fact the I remember the Chinese symbol for a breakdown is the same for opportunity so I knew there was something in it

but it took time for me and I would my answer to that question would be don't force anything give it

time to settle give it time to ferment to grow because I think I mean I was a very different person after my breakdown

very very different I didn't know at the time but recovery can take a long time or fitting the pieces together can take

an awful long time And for me, I would say almost it took 30 years because it was only when I did that documentary and really began to, I did a documentary where I investigated my breakdown and was fortunate enough to, or rather unlucky enough, to be presented with my medical records from 30 years ago, which is very few people, I think, have the opportunity to do. but I got presented to my medical records which was a bit of a shock because everything I did

everything I said all the drugs I was given were all obviously recorded and that gave me a real opportunity that's why I wrote my book to really examine what had happened and I realized that

I hadn't dealt with a lot of the issues that caused my breakdown so you know with this 30 year gap by went into therapy and I think for the last five years

I've been really examining all of the issues that I think led up to my breakdown and which has been quite painful and quite taxing but it's really liberated me and giving me a real sense of freedom and knowledge knowledge of myself

I would say, you know, I kind of describe it as, once you once you've run naked through the village, there's not really a lot to be afraid of. And I sort of think when you have a breakdown, it is such a powerful

reassembling of yourself. But I don't think you should force it. I think you should give it time. I do think maybe if you could, you say, this person says they feel clearer in their thoughts, which is good. Yeah. Because I think

I think in those years or months following a breakdown you are thinking differently I think you are a different person and how you assemble that person is completely up to you and I would encourage them

to read to really explore this new person get to know that new person and if some relationships go by the wayside then they should maybe maybe it's time for that relationship to go by the wayside

I think what's important is your this new self that's being created and as I said for me it was like getting rid of the old David Harewood and sort of getting to know the new David Hairwood. Yeah yeah a real shift oh my gosh i relate to so much of what you've said and the cats the cats come in for you said that you've got

your cat's coming my dog's coming here he is here he is um yeah i i think sometimes when i when i look back before my absolute crash you know that sense of life being simpler actually it could so easily look like that when in truth so much was repressed like there was so much that was swallowed down so much so many difficult conversations that just weren't had so we didn't have to face confrontation so in a way that looks simpler but it obviously came at a cost and I had very I just had no boundaries so everything was a yes so you come up against less resistance so that can look simpler but I think there was obviously something about all of our lifestyles and the way that we approach things that wasn't sustainable and just

kind of erupted and these things can seemingly come out of nowhere where in truth there have been kind of narratives or habits or habits that we haven't instilled or boundaries that we haven't held that have slowly been chipping away at our resources and our mental health and so yeah sometimes I think it's possible to look back and think well things were simpler then because actually holding boundaries and advocate for yourself and saying no sometimes and having difficult conversations, that's not simple, that's not straightforward, but the payoff is better mental health, more resources, more joy, more presence and, yeah, clear a mind, as she says.

And I think sometimes relationships, they're challenged because actually people can really like us when we don't have great boundaries and we live to please. will do things without kind of letting other people see the cost. Like it can be quite attractive and easy for other people. So when I know when I suddenly started holding boundaries, certain relationships, they just, they couldn't exist in the same way again because people quite liked the fact.

The more passive, Anna. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I realized last year, I know what he's been a sort of happy-go-lucky, easy come, easy go type of person. But a couple of things happened to me last year when that was really tested. And I realized, again, with my therapist,

I see a therapist every week, and I've been seeing a therapist ever since I did that documentary where I sort of rediscovered all the stuff about my breakdown. It's been incredibly helpful. where you really sort of examine yourself and you know you go back to that we've all got an inner child right and um i i realize that i don't take care of that little boy i didn't take care of that little boy i didn't take care of him he got hurt quite a lot he and i now all i'm working on parenting that the little boy that's within me

and actually when I think of my adult and it's very easy for me to get upset it's very easy for me to get you know to get knocks but I now when I feel that I saw I think into my adult brain I try to involve my adult self and that's really been helping me through

and as I said there's a couple of examples last year people really tested my boundaries and I thought to myself I'm not having that whereas before I would have just lay back and just taking it I'm not having that now and I let people know that a boundary has been crossed and that they can, you know, slinging it.

I'm just not having it. I'm enforcing that bad. And actually I feel better for doing that. Yeah. Yeah, maybe more respect for yourself. Maybe that inner child feels a little bit safer because I think there's always a cost. When there's a boundary,

either we absorb the cost because we feel hurt and disrespected and maybe resentful by someone else crossing a boundary that perhaps they didn't even know was there. But when we do hold it, we're kind of honouring a part of ourselves and actually letting other people sit with some of the fallout is, yeah, it's uncomfortable. And we don't always do what each other wants us to do and we can't always say yes to everything. And that really needs to be kind of something that we can move to accept rather than feeling like we always just have to make the way smooth for everyone else.

but at great cost. And it takes courage. And, you know, this person who's in, you know, I mean, I wrote in my book that my breakdown was a bit like having my brain ripped out and somebody putting it in a blender. And it really felt, I mean, it was an incredibly powerful experience. My psychotic breakdown was an incredibly powerful experience. Some of it was fantastic fun.

I have to be honest with you. Some of the thoughts and the, you. no sleep and the racing thoughts and the dopamine and the ideas and the mania was some of it was really thrilling but the other side of it was just like a ghost town it was as if there was nothing in my head as if all my thoughts had been just stolen and i just remember sitting like a vegetable thinking i hope i get back to some sense of normality and i very quickly did just gave it time. Just gave it time. That's hard though, isn't it? Do you think sometimes our culture it's like fast-tracks everything. You don't have to wait for anything anymore. You don't,

everything can just be a media. You don't even have feel things because you can numb it. You can zone out. You can, you know, it's actually what you're saying here is it takes time. Like let, let the doubt, see how things, you know, and I think sometimes, I remember when I got massively burnt out and I was really humbled by that experience because I could just not function in the same way at all and it was so humbling. I had to completely rebuild and as you said it, you know, it takes a long time and I'll never be the same and actually I wouldn't want to. Despite the fact that some things seem simple. I knew really what the cost was. But yeah, that sense of just, just letting things settle, letting things in a culture where we talked to

go, go, go, go, drive, push, read this, do that, you know, create this new routine. And it's all kind of this harsh productivity. And there's not much kind of trusting. So it's, it is a, it is a, and you say that everything's sort of immediate. And I was thinking the other day, and I don't particularly, you know, love Jeff Bezos, but, you know, I get things on Amazon all the time. And you just think, okay, I'll order that. and I have to go to the shop

so I can wait a day or two can wait till Friday I know it's just going to come through the door it's great and that sort of delayed sense of delayed gratification that I don't need it now you know

there was a time and I'd have to run to the store and go and buy it now and sometimes it's lovely to go and be able to do that but the time it's just nice knowing it's on its way it'll come, it'll arrive and I'm doing my best

at the moment to not which is extremely be difficult, but just to not stress. Try not to stress. And whenever I, which is hard because can you come to this event? Can you come to that event? We're going to meet the, and so-and-so's going to be there. Can you come here? Can you come there? And I sometimes have to just say, you know what? This is all getting a little too much. And learning to say, as you said, say no. And for me, learning to say no was a big plus. Because it just takes a huge weight of you. thought I had to do things.

I'm David Hare, but I have to do that because I'm champion of mental health and of black rights and I have to do this. No, I don't have to do it. And it's been enormously, you feel, it's been enormously satisfying to take the cape off and not think that I have to be Superman every two minutes and fly off and save something. just don't have to do it. But maybe when everything feels like it's been so stripped away as it often feels like in a breakdown,

that it's recognising that I cannot be who I was to everyone. So therefore, maybe that can't be my entire identity. That can't be where I get that sense of worth from. And as you say, kind of learning to re-parent that inner child, what you're probably saying to your inner child is, you know, it's okay. you're okay you don't have to do all of these things you don't have to flatten your boundaries for that person you know it's about kind of respect and honor for the self and then that identity isn't so like we don't need those external things to do everything to be

everyone to everyone to feed that sense of kind of self-worth and self-esteem and 100% and I'm really kind of checking it was something it was it was at it was a It was awful what I found in your book, you know, which I really enjoyed reading, actually. I found it quite challenging. And I think there was a, I think I got to the end of the first chapter and you said, make sure you read it slowly or something and read it again. So I thought I was reading this chapter. I was in a really good place.

And I was sort of thinking, no, I don't agree with that. Don't agree with that. And I thought, let me read that again. And just because my circumstances shifted slightly, I found myself really challenged by it, particularly about that chapter where there are people like you or why do you do things for people because they like you

and I was in a place where I was on a film in a film set and sometimes very difficult when you're abroad to maintain your own space because everyone's going out of pub or everyone's going for a meal everyone's going for you

are you coming so and so is waiting for you can you get it I just felt myself just being pulled out I thought, I don't want to go and have a pizza. Actually, I'm really interested to go and sit in the sun and just have 20 minutes reading a book. So I really tried to enforce that without stepping on anyone's toes.

Everyone's going, oh, he's weird. He's a bit moody. Say, no, no, no. I'm just doing what I want to do here. I need to just finish this chapter. Or I need to finish what I'm doing. And then maybe I'll meet you later. And it was just that way of navigating that space of,

everybody what are you doing what you doing what you're doing what you're doing what you're doing what you're doing what you're doing what you're doing you go and do what you got to do yeah I might meet you there later I need to move in my own time and that's quite difficult to do that because you've you feel like you're letting people down you feel like you're upsetting people I don't care I'm just like I need to do what's good for me right now and that's a really really important thing yeah but also inspiring for others that I remember about It was about 15 years ago, and I remember sitting at a desk in an office that I worked in, and someone was asking a colleague, can you come to this thing tonight? And he turned around and he was like, actually, I can't. And I was like, what? He just, he, what? And I was so enthralled and envious and shocked that he just stood there and said, he said, no.

And it really sparked something off for me so much so that I remember it all these years later. Is that you never know is you hold these boundaries for other people who may well just be going along thinking oh my gosh i just want to sit in the sun for 20 minutes you know you never know what you might be what gift you might be giving to those around you as you do that and i think as we care less about what other people think we know that we can be kind and respectful but beyond that we can't take responsibility for how how someone or feel yeah yeah oh my god can't do that thank you so much i think we've you know you've just given such rich rich insight and honesty and i just yeah i think for this person alone but also for those listening that it's kind of giving permission

just to slow down i think you know what you've been through this massive shift and probably very painful and very just like everything's just being thrown up in the air and give life time to settle and time is such an advocate isn't it of these things and I think in a culture year where we're often like right next day next day why won't when we don't have to what can we do actually sometimes

it is just seeing how seeing how things fall and as you say kind of parenting that in a child in maybe a more kind of passionate way and holding some of those boundaries and seeing that actually people can many people can withstand them

and if some people are struggling with this different version of you then it doesn't mean that this version of you is wrong it just means that perhaps they're struggling with the shift in maybe what they benefited from and knew and was familiar to them beforehand and it's just it's transition and it's taking away to that more more clarity and yeah as she's saying I'm feeling better in myself and more clarity and maybe that's because you're not harboring all of the cost I want to wish you I want to wish

you the best of luck who ever asked that question because as I say I think I've never felt better. And I think, I really do think my breakthrough was one of the best things that's ever happened to me. Yeah. That resonates whilst at the time, probably the hardest thing. And maybe it points the darkest thing. But can you tell us about your documentary? Because that's really relevant.

And your book as well on this so that people can go and explore those and hear more from you? Well, you can find my book in any good bookstore, as they say, or you can order it. It's called Maybe I Don't Belong Here. And that was written in lockdown, actually. So lockdown was a challenging time for everybody, but I had a wonderful time. I wrote a book, which is a memoir, but it really details, talks about why, I think, why I had my breakdown and what the cost of talking about it has been, which has been quite difficult. But now that I've got through, as you say, those dark days, I think the questions that arose during the writing of it has really benefited a lot of people. And they keep telling me that. And my documentary on Psychosis and Me

is available. I think it's on Sky. You can look at it on Sky. You can find it on the BBC website. on eye player and that's called psychosis in me. Brilliant. Well, thank you. And it sounds like your breakthrough was an unexpected gift, but also, you know, the way that you speak about it in that openness and vulnerability, which, yeah, that's a massive gift as well.

And, you know, the ripple effects of that will be impacting people far beyond the emails that you will get. No, that's good. Get comfortable with the uncomfortable. that's what my therapist is. Absolutely. Absolutely. I, yes, yes to that. So thank you so much for your time, David.

I'm so grateful for your warm wisdom. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to The Therapy Edit today. If you enjoyed it, please do take a sec to like and subscribe so we can share the words further and wider. If you have an Ask Anna question or an anonymous confession for the Confessions from the Therapy Room episodes, head to Anna Martha.com and click on the podcast tab.

to submit. Want more? Grab a copy of my most recent book, The Uncomfortable Truth. Change your life by taming 10 of your mind's greatest fears or enjoy some of the video and downloadable resources on my website, tackling everything from burnout to driving anxiety. So until the next episode, goodbye.