The Therapy Edit - Ask Anna - my friend is ghosting me

Episode Date: December 2, 2024

In this Monday episode of the brand new Ask Anna series, Anna is joined by Cat Sims, Content Creator, Author, Podcast are Writer.Together Anna and Cat tackle the following question: "After a lot of discussions and a few incidents, a very close friend of mine sent me some very clear messages that she's distancing herself from our friendship - I'm only going to see her at group gatherings like birthdays or Christmas. This was over a year ago that this all started and I still cry most times I think about it. I decided to have children, she's doing the career thing."Do you have an Ask Anna question you'd like to submit for future episodes? Or an anonymous confession? Visit the website to learn how Learn more with Cat at the following links:Substack: You're Never the Only OneTikTok: Not So Smug Nowinstagram: @notsosmugnow

Welcome to The Therapy Edit. I'm your host, Psychotherapist and author Anna Martha. I will be bringing you bite-sized episodes twice a week full of tips, wise words from expert guests and insights to support your mental well-being. Hi everyone. Welcome to today's guest episode. It's an Ask Anna episode of The Therapy Edit. And I'm really excited to have Kat Sims with me here today to answer this question all about, it's all about friendship. So I'm going to, we're going to play that in a minute. But I just want to say how grateful I am to have Kat on my social media feed in my little corner of the internet. Because, I mean, we've just, before we even clip record, have had a really open and honest frank conversation about parenting and neurodivergence. And it's that that she brings is just honesty and such relatability and such brilliant humor. But not only that, she's also an author.

she's a journalist she's a podcaster and a content creator amazing contact go and find her and she's also it's my new exciting thing that I'm really into is she's on substack as as life to the letter and she and her podcast is called you're never the only one and just expect honest warm humorous words that have you that have your shoulders dropping because you just think oh thank goodness it's not only me but not only the that. She says the things that we often don't want to say out loud and it's just so permission giving. So Kat, I'm grateful for you. I'm grateful for the chat we've already had. So I can't wait to bring more of your words to the pod. Anyway, how are you? You've got a nice cupper.

That was one hell of an introduction. Thank you so much for that. And I could say exactly the same for you in terms of that permission giving, that kind of recognition that as mum's, we are human and we've got our own emotions and our own things to manage and you make that okay. There's none of this like perfect parenting rubbish nonsense with you. And it's such a, you know, people have a lot to say about social media. But there are people like you on there that this is why it exists to make us all feel better and more seen. Oh, thank you. Well, I think our hearts are both similar in a similar space in that, aren't they?

And I think the more honesty you put out there and it can feel like a bit of a risk. Because I did something last night about feeling mothered by a man in W.H. Smith. Oh, good Lord. Yeah? Right. And I, I mean, this is where my mind goes, right, but I was at the checkout and I had a bag of minstrels that felt very important to me. And my train was about to go.

But I needed to buy these minstrels. I'd been dayduring about them. And I just stood there staring at the self-checkout being like, why doesn't it want my money? And he came over and he goes, don't worry about it. And he put his arm over and he bypassed a screen that was basically telling me to put my minstrels in the shopping area because that's just. I just hadn't done it. I was just too tired. And I was like, oh my gosh, he's just made the path smooth for me. He's seen me standing there, gormlessly looking at the checkout and just

be like, here we go. Pate your minstrels. Off you go. God. God love the humans that do those things. Yeah. I love it. And I felt like really mothered in that moment. I was like, this guy has just done something really kind of gentle. And off I've popped with my minstrawls. and did you make your train though I did I think I'd eaten them by the time I actually got on I inhaled them but I just thought those little moments that just make me feel mothered and I think sometimes we're like I want my mom

but actually there are these little moments and I threw that on Instagram and I thought people are going to be like what the hell are you talking about but they shared all their moments and it was really beautiful so I think there are people like you and I that take that risk of putting the stuff out there that we could get judged for and we could get misunderstood, but really it gives people an opportunity to come back.

Yeah, exactly. But how are you? Tell us how you're doing and like substack. That's really, I'm loving it. Yeah, substack is sort of my joy, my happy place, really, because I am at my core, a writer. That's where everything comes from. So to have substack there, and also to be able to curate not a completely set, safe space, but a safer space behind a paywall means that I am able to talk about things on there in a way that I would never talk about them on Instagram, just because that's not

what people come to me on Instagram for, right? You know, like, I don't think it makes sense for me to switch from making stupid videos in my dressing gown on a doorstep to suddenly discussing, you know, politics. Nobody cares on Instagram. But on Substack, I've been able to create a slightly safer space that allows me to explore kind of slightly more tricky subjects. And through writing, I think that I'm always way more comfortable doing it through writing than through like a story. Like, you know, I'm always going to mess it up if I get on there, you know. So anyway, sub-starts great.

I love that. Yes, we've got podcast season two of You're Never the Only One is launching on the 20th of November. that the first season was just me but I've brought in an exceptional co-host Emma Nicolet. You may follow her on Instagram as well. We are basically very much about what you were saying before. It's cordial never the only one

because it's all about sharing people's stories to make other people feel like they're not on their own and we've not got guests mainly because there are a million people doing great guest podcast, yourself included and there's no reason to think we'd do it any better. And also because we wouldn't be able to get necessarily any new guests that anybody else hasn't already heard. But what we can get is the voices of the audience and the people who listen. So a bit like you, we've got voice notes.

We've got vox pops. You know, it's really audience listener-centric. So that launches on the 20th of November. And then there's lots of exciting stuff I can't quite talk about yet. But hopefully in the next week or so, there'll be some nice announcements coming up. Oh, I love that. And I've watched some of the little reels. actually with you and Emma. What I love is just the openness that you have between each other.

And there's like a warmth and a chemistry, I think, when you have two co-hosts who really, who know each other and can feel quite safe with each other. So I'm really looking forward to the conversations. A very funny one about pooing in the woods, but we'll let people find that one. Yeah. Go and hunt that one down. Go and hunt that one down. Right. So shall we bring the question and the listener question. And we're going to play the voice note now. After a lot of discussions and a few incidents, a very close friend of mine sent me some very clear messages that she's distancing herself from our friendship. I'm only going to see her at group gatherings like birthdays or Christmas. This was over a year ago that this all started

and I still cry most times, I think about it. I decided to have children. She's doing the career thing. How do I accept this and move on? Right, so yeah, what your first thoughts as you heard that voice note? My heartbreaks, you know, I think that there's a lot of us that can really relate to losing a friendship or having a friendship evolve as we get older and as our circumstances and, you know, our situations change. I've been ghosted by a friend, which was incredibly painful. I've chosen to distance myself from me.

friends and I think what I have had to hold on to and I and I sort of really want this is the kind of thing I want her to walk away from this what I want her to take away from it is this isn't about her like I don't know it doesn't say what's happened or why whether it's just that they've made different decisions between family and career but sometimes we have to give people the grace to make those decisions and accept that we don't have to always understand them. And it's really not easy. It really isn't easy, but it's helpful to know that it really isn't about you. And I think your only responsibility in this is to really look at how you can take this going

forward, like what is the lesson that you can learn from this going forward? You know, sometimes we don't get to understand everything, and that's really painful. That is so, it's really painful. You know, whether it's estrangement in families or whatever it is, we don't get to understand it. And sometimes we just have to hand it over, accept that there are other things at play that we may or may not know about. And check in on ourselves. You know, check in on ourselves, be honest with ourselves and say, was there a part that I played in this? you know, is there something I've done that I could have done better?

It may be that you can't fix that relationship, but going forward that's the thing that you can take on. And that's the only thing that you can control, right? You can't control her or her decision or why she's done it. You can't convince her that she's wrong. All you can do is look at what part you may have played in that and how you can change going forward. And I think that it sometimes we,

I think sometimes we expect or we hope that we can eliminate the pain or understand the pain and actually sometimes you just have to feel it. Oh gosh, you're so right. So uncomfortable. It's so uncomfortable. It is. It's grief. And I think one of the things, you know, in recovery, I'm, I don't, you know, I've been clean and sober now for three years.

And one of the things in recovery that they say is the good news is you get your feelings back. The bad news is you get your feelings back. And it's, and it's really true. because we spend a lot of time for me it was drugs and alcohol but for other people it's exercise or it's spending or it's sex or it's whatever it is but we spend a lot of time trying to find things

that will help us feel something else other than pain or discomfort or those horrible feelings that we don't want to feel but actually sometimes you just need to sit in that pain and you just need to sit in those feelings and you need to let them be because the more you try and understand them away or act them away and make a decision to change the way you feel,

it's still there. It's going to be there and it's going to sit there. And that's why I think down the line our behaviour becomes unkind sometimes or erratic or emotional. And sometimes you just have to accept that these feelings are ugly and painful and there isn't getting rid of them. There is just getting through them. And that's, but it is so hard to lose a friend.

And you know, I was talking about this the other day with another friend. We have so much language around romantic relationships breaking up. But there is no language for a friendship breaking up. So true. You know, there's nothing. And that in itself means that it's very hard to talk about. And when we don't talk about it, we don't share, we don't connect. don't learn how to deal with it.

And I don't know what the answer to that is because there just isn't any language. I wonder if the Germans have a word for it. I feel like the Germans have a word for everything. They do. A beautiful one. They must have some sort of word for it. But there is no word to describe that friendship breakup. And I think that's really sad.

I think that's part of the problem. We don't have language with which to process these feelings. Yeah. And I'm wondering if there's something that's unsaid then. for this, for this listener, I mean, not only on the part of the friend that's kind of distanced herself, because it says she sent me some very clear messages, and I don't know whether they're kind of physical WhatsApp messages, but there still seems to be a lack of clarity here and a lack of the why or a lack of a conversation, but also maybe there's

something that's gone and said on the listener that maybe she just wants to communicate, Hey, look, I know a year ago you expressed this to me and I completely respect that. But I just want to let you know that I, you know, I felt quite hurt that there wasn't a conversation. You know, a conversation about it. And I don't know. It's like, is there something that maybe she just needs to express? Otherwise, it must be so awkward seeing each other at group gatherings when there is. Yeah, I think you, I mean, I think you can.

You can sort of say it really hurt me. You know, I think sometimes it's that acceptance and it is just granting them the grace of making that decision and just being like, you know, I've heard you and I'm sorry that it's turned out this way, but I'll respect your decision. And taking your power back in it because if you're like it really hurt or, you know, you're asking for an explanation, you're sort of going, tell me why. Whereas if you're like, I respect it and I'm always here, but I respect your decision you've taken your power back in that and it's not easy no it's not easy to do that um because sometimes it's not about you like sometimes you are just collateral damage in another

person's experience and that's not fair but it is yeah and you're sometimes just the you may never know and the wider context of and being okay with that is the hardest part of it all but i also think you know when she says I've sent me very clear messages or very direct messages like if they are very clear WhatsApp messages that say I do not want to be you know as close with you anymore we have whatever it is great but if those very but if those very clear messages are just things that you have picked up on yeah then they're not clear like and then aside do you want to get read do you want to get together for coffee oh yeah yeah sometime but never giving a date like that kind of Totally. But also don't, you know, don't rely on telepathy is not a reliable form of communication.

You know, reading body language, reading between the lines, not reliable forms of communication. So, you know, it's really possible that there may be something else going on that hasn't been clearly conveyed. And, you know, it may be that there's something else. Only the listener will know, right? Only the listener will know if there's something else going on. If there's something that they, if they're really, really honest, they may have a part in the whole thing. What that is, can they put it right?

Do they want to put it right? Is there room to put it right? The only thing you have control over is really identifying that and making an amends for it if you can. But, you know, in amends saying sorry for something, if there is something that you feel that you've done does not require the other person to be okay with it.

You say sorry for your own sanity. You say sorry to keep your side of the street clean. You don't say sorry so that they say sorry back. You don't go into an apology with an expectation that they're going to give the same thing back to you because that's not how it works. You don't get to control that. So I think if you, you know, whatever it is,

is when you make an amends, if you need to make an amends, you go in there knowing that you do the right thing so that you can keep yourself sane. It's like releasing. That's what I'm hearing what you're saying. It's kind of releasing, you know, saying sorry if that's what needs to be said. And then just kind of releasing that sorry. And I think data gathering is also really helpful.

So find ourselves ruminating over, you know, and becoming quite maybe a little bit fixated on, why did you do this? What have I done? You know, actually just data gathering and looking at the other. the kind of longstanding relationships in your life that you enjoy? Yeah, because if you get the, yeah, if you get the hint that you have done something wrong, you're going to, you're immediately going to go out and look for evidence that that's the case or that you've handled something about

or you're a bad person, whatever, you're going to go out and look for evidence and you're going to find it. You know, you are. So it's about how, where your focus is. Okay, this relationship may not have worked out as you wanted. That might be because of some big drama. Chances are it's probably just because there's an evolution that's happened that has just taken you on different paths. You know, like you say one of you's into career and one of you've chosen family, the listener chose family and her friend chose career.

We don't know, you know, that these women who aren't having children, that whole reproductive thing is a very, very emotional, spicy area. We don't know what's going on with her. I'm not saying she didn't choose. that she may well have chosen not to have children but it may well be that she didn't and being around families is too hard for her you know we just don't know and um the releasing you just totally the amount of energy and time we put into trying to understand somebody else's stuff so that we can feel better about ourselves actually the only way we can really feel better about ourselves is assess our

part in it make that right if we need to and move on everything else is nothing to do with you Oh, it's so true. And it's something, as you speak, I've got this metaphor in my head of like a hot air balloon and it's like trying to fly away, but you're kind of like, you're holding onto one of the ropes with everything in you and you're just not wanting to let it go. But actually, sometimes we have to keep choosing to let it go. We have to keep, we can look down and find that actually our hand, our fist is like round that rope again and we're choosing again to kind of keep letting it go.

So maybe that's like a little visualization that the listener might. find helpful is that as she finds that kind of feeling and that that that may be desired to kind of change the situation or just to kind of grieve because in the grieving and in the sadness we're just kind of again we're just letting go of that that grip loosening and it's the consciousness around that as well so even just recognizing that you could let go of this if you wanted to means that that is an option the next time you feel it you can go hang on a minute

you can stop and break we say in like because I'm sober we say it stop observe breathe evaluate respond and so you give yourself that pause to go okay the only thing I can control

about this feeling is how I respond and react to it so I can really lean into this anxiety and this sadness and this grief or I can accept it as not nothing to do with me. Like it's a decision that we are giving her the grace to make.

And, you know, friendships ending can also mean that you, I do believe everything happens for a reason. I do believe that something that feels really bad at the time turns out to be something that needed to happen. And maybe this is that, you know, for whatever reason. It could be that it just helps her reassess. her approach in relationships, that would be a great, you know, that would be a really positive outcome that you go, okay, hang on, I realize now how I mishandled certain things in this.

I'm not going to do that going forward anymore. That was, what is it teaching me? That's always the really, like I try and ask myself that question. When things go tits up, I always try and go, okay, what is this teaching me? What can I learn? Because then you're not like the victim. You don't feel like the victim with the circumstance as much because you're looking on what's going on instead of feeling like the victim you're thinking okay what can I get from this what can I be given by this situation that I can take forward and also it's you know in a relationship to people you're never without fault like you're not not fault that's because there's a difference for me between fault and responsibility you're never without a responsibility in that in that dynamic so

it might not be your fault that something's happened, but you do have a responsibility within that to manage whatever's happened in a way that isn't dramatic or inflammatory, you know, and if that's your only part of it, which is I'm not going to cause the drama around this, then you're doing that. You may feel like they're getting away with it. You may feel like they're getting away with bad behaviour. But actually, the real thing is, is you're not getting in the ring. You're not going to have the drama. And that is, like, write a letter. Like, right. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, not sending it. You know, just writing a letter, a therapeutic letter, burning it if you want, or having a little ceremony in your garden where you tie it to the end of a helium balloon and off it goes, maybe not helium. I think that's not right. I was about to say, you've already got, yeah, I was about to say you've just riled up a load of environmentalists. Sorry, no, no helium balloons. No helium balloons or tie, or lanterns, none of those either. Write it on toilet paper very easy to disintegrate and bury it. Yeah. Or you can do what I do, which is go for a walk and talk to myself. I have the conversation.

I love that. So good for the environment. Externalising. A couple of things you have to note, though, is that you do have to have your headphones in because otherwise people think you're just talking to yourself. True. Which, of course, you are. But with your headphones on, it makes them think you're on the phone.

So that's great. And when I say I have the conversation, I have the conversation and I leave gaps for the person to speak, to say the things that I think. And it's a really, that's where the drama. is for me. Can you get quite heated? Yeah. I always win those conversations. I love it. I always win those. I sort of behave in a way there that I know I cannot behave in real life. You know, so if I feel the need to get that out, that like drama, inflammatory, fuck you attitude, I'll do it walking around the woods. People walk past me and I'm like, I don't think you understand just how fucking awful you can be sometimes, you know. and I'm not talking to anybody.

This is, it's so therapeutic though, I think that external processing. And as we speak those words out, we're hearing them as well, which gives us another opportunity to validate them. And maybe it just starts taking a little bit of that pressure off to feel. Yeah. And also you can stop and start again. Yeah. You know, if you say something and you're like, no, that's not right.

You can say it again. You can get it. It's honestly, it's the most therapeutic thing. And nine times out of 10, when I'm finished with my conversation, I feel far more peaceful about it and I've probably identified my part in it. That's so good and it gets it out and I think that's what I'm hearing in this voice note

is there's stuff in her. You know, it was over a year ago and she still cries. You know, the crying is the getting it out so it's showing us that there's still stuff in there. So maybe going, getting the AirPods, going out on a walk and having and saying that and giving voice to you

and words to your part so that it's externalised. And you know what, as people kind of moving out of our lives, what it does? It creates space. I'm just wondering what other relationship she has in her life that actually maybe she's got a tad more kind of friendship resource to focus on some of those relationships that actually feel really, like really good. Nourishing and whole, yeah, totally.

And that goes back to. saying that these things happen for a reason and it may mean that you are able now to build stronger relationships with people that you are aligned with. And that's all this is. Neither of you are horrible people. It sounds to me more like it's just a natural evolution of people's lives for whatever reason. I don't think, you know, I don't think anybody in this situation goes out of their way to be hurtful, but sometimes the decisions that we have to make for ourselves can have painful consequences for other people.

That doesn't mean those decisions are wrong, you know? It doesn't. It just means that we have to accept that decision as part of a bigger whole. But it is, you know, I think it is easy to think that it says, a friend who moves away from a person, It's very, very easy. The natural state is to go, well, it must be me. There's something wrong with me.

And it really hits your, it really hits your confidence. You know, and I hear that a lot. That's a lot of where the tears come from as well. It's like, I just don't understand what have I done wrong. That's a devastating place to be in. But I just want to reassure you that you will know if you've done something wrong. If you're really honest, you'll know. Yeah.

And you'll say it around you, won't you? other relationship patterns and maybe you look around, you think, you know what, actually this is not the first time friends have taken steps back. And what might that mean? And if you haven't done anything wrong, then it's none of your business. And you just don't know the full story and you may never. Yeah. Oh, so there's so much good advice in here.

So we've got, like, recognising it is a kind of grief and to try and allow yourself to sit with some of those emotions so they can kind of move through you rather than any of those numbing, distracting behaviours that we so often lean towards. If you really feel like there's an apology there, then give the apology, but with no strings attached, no expectations attached. Have a conversation with that person on your own. Externalise it, get it out. Talk to yourself.

Talk to yourself. Look around you and just see those other friendships, date together. You know, is this a common dynamic? is this a common narrative if so what might that be telling you but but actually if if it isn't then you'll see that as well so yeah and yeah and then it's none of your business then it's none of your business let go we want it to be hot air balloons but keep letting go oh do you know the amount of times I'm like calling friends going this happen this happened she's like it's none of your business I'm like yeah but yeah but she's it's it's none of your bit what I'm learning in

sobriety is 99% of stuff is actually none of my business. And that's been so freeing. We have to keep reminding ourselves, don't we? Because especially when there's an emotional impact or something inside of us, we know is responding or being triggered somehow. You know, we feel very much like it's our business. Yeah.

And it's not your trigger is your business. Your feelings are your business. But what caused them not necessarily your business. You know, that's really... So confronting. I know. It's so true. It's so true. And it's something constantly need to remind ourselves of. It allows us to take back our power. Totally. And it feels, like I said, it can feel like you're letting people get away with things.

You know, and that pride of like, but you shouldn't be allowed to do that. You're right. They shouldn't be allowed to do that. But you don't get to say whether they do or not. You just get to say how, whether you choose to respond, react, engage or not. And chances are you're always going to be better off if you don't do. any of those things, just walk away. Like, just recognize that we can't control people, places and things. And in this instance, your friend is a person and you can't control her and it is what it is. Yeah. Thank you so much for your wisdom. I've absolutely loved this chat. Me too. I love, every time we chat, I love it. You're just a little human sunshine. I don't think my kids would agree this week. It has not to be in a good week. I have not to be human sunshine. But You know, we all have our moments.

But thank you so much for your wisdom. I think friendship is something that is not spoken about enough. And I think, yeah, you've given us so much. Brilliant insight. So thank you very much. And everyone go and find Kat. Go and find that cat on Instagram. Go and find her podcast.

You're never the only one. Especially listen out for the new series because I've only seen snippets, but I just love the chemistry between the two of you. And then, yeah, substack, which is kind of like a newsletter that you can sign up to, but it's got loads of extras as well. Yeah, it's like a magazine, basically. You can sign up for free and get one article a week. This is mine, or you can sign up and get two in a mini pod

and various other bits and pieces. So, yeah, it's only $4.99 a month for mine. One of the cheapest on there, I'll be honest. It's cheaper than mine. Life to the letter. Thanks so much, Kat. I've loved chatting to you. And I hope that was helpful for our lovely guest

and tons of other people, I'm sure. Thank you, darling. Thank you for listening to The Therapy Edit today. If you enjoyed it, please do take a sec to like and subscribe so we can share the words further and wider. If you have an ask Anna question or an anonymous confession for the Confessions from the Therapy Room episodes, head to Anna Martha.com and click on the podcast tab to submit. Want more? Grab a copy of my most recent book, The Uncomfortable Truth.

Change your life by taming 10 of your mind's greatest fears or enjoy some of the video and downloadable resources on my website. website tackling everything from burnout to driving anxiety. So until the next episode, goodbye.