The Therapy Edit - One Thing with Anna Williamson on getting more sleep

Episode Date: July 1, 2022

On this episode of One Thing Anna chats with fellow Anna, Anna Williamson on the topic of sleep and how our thoughts about it and the hours we get, change as we become mothers. Anna Williamson is a mum of two, television presenter, podcaster, author and dating expert that you might recognise as the presenter of Channel 4's Celebs Go Dating. Anna is also a big champion of maternal mental health.You can follow Anna on Instagram at @annawilliamsonofficialYou can listen to her podcast, Breaking Mum and Dad here https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/breaking-mum-dad-the-podcast/id1334745121And you can buy her book Breaking Mum and Dad, The Insider's Guide to Parenting Anxiety here https://www.amazon.co.uk/Breaking-Mum-Dad-Insiders-Parenting/dp/1472953355

Hello and welcome to The Therapy Edit with me, psychotherapist's mum of three and author Anna Martha. Every Friday, I invite one guest to tell me the one thing they would most like to share with mums everywhere. So join with me as we hear this dose of wisdom. I hope you enjoy it. Hello and welcome to today's guest episode of The Therapy Edit and I'm really excited about this one because I am chatting to Anna Williamson. Hello. Hello.

Hi Anna. Fellow Anna. Great name. Oh, it's a double Anna. It's an Anna squared today. It really is. For those who do not know you, I mean, that may have been hiding under a rock. And you are a TV presenter, a dating expert.

I love celebsco dating. Thank you. You have a podcast called Luanna, which I listened to, saying a moment ago, I listened to in the car when the kids aren't in there. Yes. And I just, ah, laughter is such a therapy to me. Thank you for that. And you have a podcast called Breaking Mad.

You have books, many books, including breaking mum and dad. So thank you for everything that you bring to the world, your wisdom and your humour. Oh, my gosh, thank you. Well, the love is real back. You know, I'm a massive fan. And yeah, when you list everything, I think to myself, my God, you know, in my 23 years of being a working, I've not said working mom, that's such a lie. I've not been a working mum for 23 years. I've been a mum for five years.

But yeah, I would say, Jack of all, master a nun. I like to learn. I like to learn and I like to keep moving on, you know. My nan always said to me, she went, you're a long time dead. So I think I just try and pack a lot in. I love that. I've been thinking a lot about the word someday recently. You know, we'll do that someday. I'll do that another day. And actually, we don't know how many Sundays we have. Love that, Anna. So you're doing all the Sunday things. Yeah, I love that. Love that thought process, actually. You're right. The putting it off to tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? Who knows how many tomorrow's we got. It's a It's a depressing thought and...

And also a positive one. Yeah. But you're right. I think, as you say, we sing from the same hymn sheet completely and I think that's it. It's how you frame it and as opposed to a old, you know, macabre way. It's just a kind of what can I embrace today? What can I do today? Yeah.

I had a bit of mantra once. Again, it sounds a bit awful, but I found it really motivating. I would just wander around and go, I'm going to die. And it would make me just think, that's the truth of it. all. So how can I be a bit more present in my life with my kids? How can I accept some of those or seek some of those opportunities of the things that I've always wanted to do? And just not, yeah, and just, yeah, but it is, it's a flip between, it is quite macabra. But I've never said that word before. Macabra. Macabra. Yeah, macabra. But also, I don't often use that word

myself. No, but I think, I think you're right. And actually, talking about death is a really, like, there's a lot of stigma around that, isn't there? I'm pretty sure neither of us expected to come on this podcast and dive straight in with death. But I think it's really important to be okay about that and normalise it. It used to be an enormous fear of mine. A real trigger of my generalised anxiety, actually, was that whole mortality thing. But I think it's important to, as you say, try and frame that in a way that isn't so scary. So to move on from death and living, we're talking about it in a positive way, as well, won't we? Anna, what is the one thing that you would love to share with all mums?

So as a mum of two, those that don't know me, I particularly bang the drum around maternal mental health, as I know a lot of us do. And it's super important. And I, my one thing I want to share with mum, so this might sound really obvious, but sometimes it is the obvious things that we often forget to focus on or even give the time to think about it or explore it more. And that is the importance of sleep. And as parents, we all know that it's the number one holy grail obsession, isn't it? You know, getting enough sleep, feeling sleep deprived. You know, we all know how awful feeling sleep deprived can be. And when I had Enzo, my son, I've got a daughter Eleonora, who's two, I was really, I had a, unfortunately, my anxiety disorder, perinatal anxiety

flared up in pregnancy, but I remember a huge trigger of my anxiety has always been around sleep. And it stems back to in my 20s when I was diagnosed with GAD and panic disorder because it was a lot of it was triggered around the middle of the night, you know, having, it's a very lonely time, isn't it, the middle of the night, especially when you're suffering with panic attacks and stuff. So I was really worried when I was pregnant with him about what this sleep thing was going to look like because it was incredibly triggering for me. And how many of us can be guilty of this when someone's pregnant or they're having a child or they're thinking about it? And I've probably done this as well. I really don't do it now. But people kept saying to me, oh, better get the

sleep in now. Because when they arrive, you can kiss goodbye to a good night's sleep. You can bank it up. Yeah, right. In a savings account. Right. Exactly. And for me, that was so triggering, and especially with my anxiety starting to flare. And I, because I remember being absolutely terrified of, well, how am I going to cope? Because if I don't sleep, I know my panic attacks come on and I know I can't function in my anxiety. So anyway, I had, fast forward, you know, I had my son and I did have a rather challenging bout of post-sacal depression and some birth trauma thrown in for good measure. But what I absolutely now, with the benefit of hindsight, recognised was how important that I did everything I could and used every resource that was

even vaguely at my fingertips to enable me to get enough rest and sleep. And sometimes sleep is not possible, but rest may be a little bit more achievable. Because the more sleep deprived I was getting with having a newborn, the worst my mental health was becoming. It was then fueling my anxiety. It was then fueling all of the symptoms that come with my anxiety, which is I can't eat. And it spirals out of control, as you all know, Anna, you know, about, you know, everything kind of, you know, cause and effect and all that. And I recognized, well, we recognize very late, really, with who knows, particularly when you have a first child. I remember being 10 days in and I was frantically Googling sleep nannies and maternity help and doleers. And

does anyone to just help me, you know? And it was a bit too little too late. But we did identify, you know, and we were very lucky that my, and I know a lot of people aren't as fortunate to have a good support network around you, but I guess the one thing I want to kind of share with everyone today is to perhaps look at what that support network could look like for you, you know, where, what resources do you have available to you? So my mum ended up coming to do an overnight babysit for us on a Saturday night when, which, which was probably the best gift anyone could ever have given me. Truly, in that moment, if someone had said, have a million pounds, or someone looks after your baby overnight,

it's your husband and you can get a full eight hours in. It's the sleep every time, right? And what that afforded me was the rest. And in rest, obviously, means you could become healthier and more well and you're able to function more, you know, happy mom, happy baby and all of that. And then when I had my daughter, because I really, it really took a while for us to consider having another child. and we always wanted several children but because it had been such a full start for us I really had to think about how I was going to have a second child if I was fortunate enough to have one

and before I even conceived her I had made some very definite decisions around my birth choices I wanted to plan section I didn't want to go through any of the uncertainty and the trauma around a natural labour again and sleep was a huge part of it and now this might feel really controversial to a lot of people

and I would like to heavily caveat this and equally there's also nothing wrong with this I don't have banks of money. My husband and I aren't rich. You know, I might be on the telly, but trust me, you don't earn, you know, the millions of the pounds. That's the Holly Willoughbees of this world. But my husband and I very much made a decision that, well, I did, and he just had to come on board with it, but he supported it, that we were going to have some help with overnights to make sure that I had enough sleep in the tank, which would then keep my anxiety disorder at bay, because I had obviously a three-year-old to look after as well. So we put aside

the Dosh to have a maternity, a sleep nanny, three nights a week for the first 12 weeks of having Eleonora. And I can't tell you, Anna, how life-changing it was. I mean, we thought it was either have a holiday, family holiday, if, you know, a couple of ground or whatever, or we invest in a sleep nanny. And for me, that was the important place for us to spend that money, you know, into a portion that money. You know, we could just have a staycation. And it was an absolute game-changer, Anna, having that luxury of having some sleep, fortunately, I didn't have post-ental depression second time round and I truly believe that noticing the importance of it and doing everything we could to make sure there was enough sleep, kept our relationship a lot

healthier and happier and less snippy with each other than we were first time round. And I'm delighted to say I didn't spiral into a mental breakdown second time round. Amazing. Amazing that you can you could make that connection so strongly between the sleep or lack of and and yeah the mental health challenges and I absolutely identify with that I had a silent refluxy second child didn't get any sleep and I remember I think kind of my husband was desperate to kind of take the baby for me and I'd kind of banished him to another room because I was in a right state and I could barely face the thought of him seeing how much I struggled in those nights. And I remember kind of relenting and just being at the end of myself and getting some sleep. It was this

absolute relief that, but also this kind of realisation, this start realisation about utterly important sleep and rest is. Yes. It's so important. And I so identify with what you're saying. And I think a lot of, the reason I wanted to kind of mention it, you know, as my one thing today on your fabulous podcast is because I think, I think we, society trivializes it a little bit when it comes, especially to having a baby and to becoming a parent, oh, you never sleep again as well as you did before, you can kiss goodbye. You know, and yes, we can all have, you know, on one hand, it is good that we're all in the same trenches together with that. You know, we all, I think are very empathetic about everyone looking a bit knackered, you know, needing a

barocca and a coffee to get them through the day. But then on the flip side, it is so important. myself and absolutely I really did make that link when I was sort of analyzing, you know, what I wanted to do differently the second time round. And sleep was a huge part of it. My husband actually came up with a, I would say, a kind of life-saving, relationship-saving idea first time round when we hadn't invested in some overnight help in that we would do sleep shifts, you know, and it was completely alien to us as a couple. You know, we were, you know, sit up, watch telly, you know, have a glass of wine, get to bed about 11, you know, like kind of lot of people do. That wasn't going to cut the mustard. And two knackard parents is horrendous

because you throw your relationship into that mix as well. You know, everybody is just flipping, you know, like a dark treading water, you know, where are we going with this? So we actually created a system where, and I had started to bottle feed, Enzo, which for me was really, was the best decision because it allowed me to give that level of control over to someone else and I could, you know, relax a little bit. But so I used to do the sort of seven o'clock evening feed and then I'd go to bed. And it was, but mentally, it was amazing because we gave each of that permission to switch off physically and mentally for that amount of time.

So I would go to bed at 8 o'clock and I remember he used to close the bedroom door. Oh, it felt amazing. And then I would then, my husband would stay up and do the 11 o'clock feed because we were quite regimented with our feeding. We're routine parents. It doesn't work for everyone, but it works for us. So he slept at the 11 o'clock feed, then he would go to bed, settle baby and go to bed. I would then wake up for the 3 a.m. feed, but I'd obviously been to sleep, hopefully, between 8.

So 8 and 3 is a big old chunk of sleep. And then he would go to bed after the 11 o'clock feed and then sleep through until 6, 7 in the morning. And, you know, we were passing ships for quite some time. But actually, it's what worked for us. And it allowed us both to get enough sleep to function and vaguely enjoy parenthood in those early days. Yeah. And how do you, now you've got to young. kids how do you prioritize sleep now because it's so easy i think i don't know about you but sleep is

kind of going to bed can so easily be one of those things that you just kind of put off to get that space or just watch one more thing or feel like you've got your time in your home without someone needing you or wanting you so how do you like prioritize rest and sleep now such a great question and i think we can all identify with that it's like and that's silly but it's like we all do a little little jig and skip once the kids are finally down. And then it's like, it's 7.30 or 8 o'clock, if I'm lucky. You know, what am I going to do with my evening? Like I can watch this. I can, you know, chat to this friend. I can maybe, but then there are some nights when it is like, no, I need to catch up on sleep. So I actually do make sure that at least a couple of nights a week,

I kind of follow the kids just to just to build up that tank. And I always ask myself, so as opposed to staying up late and watching this other. you know, one more episode of Selling Sunset, obsessed with, actually, what might that, how am I I feel on the next day? So I know that it's, it is as important as making sure I have a good meal at night, you know, getting into bed, you know, jammo's on nine o'clock, sometimes cautious to nine, you know, if I'm really feeling at eight o'clock, heaven. But it's really important. So I prioritize it like I would, anything else that is important in life, such as eating good food, taking exercise.

It's about filling that cup and it's important to prioritize. And also, I think for me, I've learned maybe age, I turned 40 last year and I found it really quite empowering. My days of people pleasing are gone. And that isn't in a kind of selfish, like whatever, but in a kind of, if I don't want to go out and stay out until midnight and drink alcohol, I'm just not going to, you know, and I, but I also manage those expectations of others as well. So if one is going out or if I'm going out, I'm not going to drink tonight.

guys, I've got to leave but this time, whatever. Because that's what serves me well and that's what serves me better, particularly when I'm working. I cannot do it all. I cannot do it all. I can't be a working mum and go out and get smashed. I can't do it all. So I have to prioritise. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. And actually I think, you know, that people pleasing or letting go of that isn't the selfish thing. It's actually you're then able to parent more likely in a way that you want to, to work in probably more likely in a way that you feel proud of and to relate to those around you in a way that is, yeah, exactly. And I think as parents, you know, as moms, you know, we're always, a lot of us,

you know, we're striving for, you know, what is that work, life, family balance? And I don't think there's ever a perfect formula for it. But I, and I hope this doesn't sound at all like, oh, yeah, check her out. But I mean, probably like you and I spend my whole life, you know, teaching others, you know, to have boundaries and to structure their lives, you know, accordingly. So I would be a bit remiss if I wasn't practicing what I preach. But I do. I make sure that I've always said, you know, my priority list, my priority list has always been,

because I don't subscribe to Mum Gill. I have my moments. Obviously, I think we all do sometimes. But on the whole, not really because I always say when I had the children, they are my priority. You know, they are my dependence. They don't, they don't function or survive without me or their dad. So I always put them first and then everything else comes underneath that.

So in my head, I'm like, as long as the children are taking care of whether I'm here or not today, who's looking after them, who's picking them up? Have they got enough food? Have they had this? Great. Kids are sorted. Then what's next? Now, that's not always easy. And I am fortunate. I have a freelance job and I am technically my own boss a lot of the time. But then, you know, not always, you know, when I work on celebs go dating, it's a very demanding schedule. But it's about being communicating with those people that need to be communicated with to manage their expectations. and also to lay down your boundaries. And that's really important. It's mutual respect, isn't it? You're respecting them. You're asking them to respect you. Yeah. So true.

So true. Well, thank you so much for your wise words on just, I guess it's all about prioritising sleep and rest. And even in those moments, I can't sleep for whatever reason. I always tell myself rest is beneficial. At least I'm resting. You know, because sometimes I don't know about you, but I can have anxiety around sleep.

where I get stressed that I'm not sleep, and then that kind of pushes sleep away. So it's that rest is beneficial. Get it wherever you can get it in the day, in the evening, just sit down sometimes, put the jobs aside, go to bed, prioritize that rest. Exactly. Rest is best.

So to finish off, I'm going to ask you some quick five questions. Yeah. What's a motherhood high for you, a quick one? Motherhood high. Yeah. Oh, the hands on face looking me right. in the eyes and go, mommy, I love you, unprompted. I mean, that's what, that's what I'm living for right now, Anna. Yeah, the caffeine, the little motherhood caffeine moment. You can bank those

up and then think of those in the moment. The shitty nights are worth it. When minute one of them does that a genuine, I love you, mummy, I'm, I'm there. I'm like, my work is done. Yeah. Yeah. And what's the motherhood low for you? Oh, gosh. Oh, well. I mean, I guess post-natal depression was was pretty crap. Awful. But I also am proof that it doesn't remain crap forever and just to ask for help. So that was a low, but asking for help and the help will come. Yeah, that's a lesson you can take on is the rest of your life really, can't it? Oh, it's life changing. Yeah. And what's one thing that makes you feel good? I was going to say sleep. You can say that. I mean, sleep does make me feel good.

Um, but also my family, um, it does make me feel good. I'm, um, you know, family is my number one value and, uh, as long as I've got my tribe around me, my stability. You know what? I'm the richest women in the world. That's all I need. Amazing. And how would you describe motherhood in three words? Challenging. Exilarating and, uh, overwhelming. Yeah. Yeah. Feel all of those. Well, thank you so much for your time, Anna. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks, fellow Anna. I will see or hear you very soon. Yeah, we'll do. Thanks, Anna. You're an absolute ledge. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of The Therapy Edit. If you enjoyed it, please do share, subscribe and review. It really makes

a massive difference as to how many people this podcast can help. You can find more from me on Instagram at Anna Martha. You might like to check out my books called Mind Over Mother and Know Your Worth and my brand new book called The Little Book of Calm for New Mums, grounding words for the highs, the lows and the moments in between. It's a little book. You don't read it from front to back. You just dip in according to what emotion you're feeling

where you'll find a mantra, a short passage and a tip to help give you some comfort and guidance in that emotion. I'm also the founder of the mothermind way. This is a platform packed with guides, resources and videos with the sole focus on supporting mother's mental health and emotional well-being. Have a good week.