The Therapy Edit - One Thing with Dr Karen Gurney on why you don’t fancy spontaneous sex

Episode Date: December 23, 2022

On this guest episode of The Therapy Edit, Anna asks Dr Karen Gurney, Clinical Psychologist, Psychosexologist and Couples Therapist for her One Thing to share with all the parents.Karen shares her thoughts about why parents shouldn't worry if they never feel like sex out of the blue. Dr Karen is a recognised national expert in sex and relationships and the director of The Havelock Clinic www.thehavelockclinic.com. Listeners to this podcast can use the code ANNA20 for 20% off Karen's online workshops found here https://havelockonlineworkshops.teachable.com/coursesAs part of her mission to educate, inform and challenge widely held ideas that harm people’s sex lives she has done two TEDx talks and the bestsellling book, ‘Mind The Gap: the truth about desire and how to futureproof your sex life’. She uses her Instagram account @thesexdoctor and online workshops to make sex therapy accessible to everyone, and to translate ideas from her sex therapy clinic outside of the therapy room. Mind The Gap: the truth about desire and how to futureproof your sex life is available here https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mind-Gap-truth-desire-futureproof/dp/1472267133/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=Karen's 2 TED TALKS are linked here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krA8-_iXptEhttps://www.ted.com/talks/dr_karen_gurney_the_power_of_orgasms_to_address_gender_inequality

Hello and welcome to The Therapy Edit with me, psychotherapist's mum of three and author Anna Martha. Every Friday, I invite one guest to tell me the one thing they would most like to share with mums everywhere. So join with me as we hear this dose of wisdom. I hope you enjoy it. Hello and welcome to today's guest episode of the Therapy Edit. And I am really excited that I have with me today, Dr. Karen Gurney, she is on Instagram as the sex doctor. She is a clearly called psychologist, a psychosexualist. That's a bit of a mouth form. I'll say that one again, a psychosexologist and a couple's therapist. She's got a book called Mind the Gap, which is about the truth about desire and how to future proof your sex life, which is amazing.

I'd love to hear a bit more about that. She is a TEDx speaker. One of the talks you must check out is a surprising. truth about desire. Everyone needs to know. And the second one is around orgasms in gender inequality and she has just informed me that it has gone on the global TED Talk platform. I think it was yesterday. So you must go and check that out. She has free resources. She runs low-cost online workshops and she is just passionate about equipping people with information that will just inspire them and just start stripping away some of that shame that so many of us have around sex and relationships. So, hi, Karen. Welcome. Hi, Anna. What a lovely introduction and thanks for having me. So excited to be here. Wow, it's great. Happy, how are you feeling today? I'm feeling

wonderful, actually. The sun is shining. It's, you know, it's a glorious day. I'm happy to be chatting with you. It's all good. Oh, you know what? I've just done the school drop off. And there were so many cobwebs, kind of in all the fences and the gates that we saw. And they were just kind of, it was amazing. They were kind of glistening in the sunlight. It was just. I'd like to join you in that, but I am really spiderphobic. I am not keen. It's not a good time of year for me. I did not see any spiders within them, fortunately. But no, I'm with you on that. The cobwebs are beautiful. The makers of the cobwebs. Not so much. I wish I could say the same. I wish I could say the same. So Dr. Karen, thank you for joining us and the question that we ask all our guests

here is if you could share one thing with everyone listening, what would that one thing be? It would absolutely be, don't worry if you never feel like sex out of the blue. Oh, brilliant. So don't worry if you never feel like sex out of the blue. Yes. Tell us a little bit more about that because I think, you know, I talk to my friends quite openly about sex and desire, whereas I don't think my partner, my husband, talks as openly to his friends. So I might get that, that reassurance that, you know, feeling full of desire at the job of a hat or total lack thereof is, I'm not alone in that. But whereas I think there are many people, my husband included, that don't have those kind of open on this conversation. So I think

this is going to be so important for people. Yeah, absolutely. And concern about how much you feel like sex, so concern about desire is the number one reason that people seek sex therapy. So come and see people like me in therapy sessions. It's the biggest reason. And we also know that about a third of women in the UK and just under one in five men are really worried that they're not feeling like sex enough, particularly in long-term relationships. And just to kind of add insult to injury, we also know that when people have got kids under five at home, they see a massive drop in sexual satisfaction. So it's the hardest time when you've got young children to kind of maintain a good sex life and feel good about your sex life. So concerns about desire and

concerns about sex are massive for new parents, massive for people anyway. And one of the biggest challenges is that the way in which we've been sold an idea that desire should work is dramatically different to how desire actually works. And that's one of the key reasons that people worry that they're not feeling like sex enough. So we're being sold this idea, this ideal of how, of how it should be. So we're there thinking there's something wrong with us. And what kind of statements are people coming, kind of concluding about themselves and their relationships from this kind of misconception? Yeah, no, it's a great question because that's often the crux of it. It's often not about the amount of sex that they're having, but it's about the meaning of not

feeling like sex within that relationship. So people are often worried that they're broken, that there's something wrong with them, there's something wrong with their bodies, there's something wrong with how they relate to sex or they're worried that they are no longer attracted to their partner when they kind of know that they are, for example, or that there's something dramatically wrong in the relationship. These are the things that people worry about when in actual fact there is zero wrong most of the time with them, with their desire, with their bodies or with their relationships. And what's actually happening is that we're seeing a normal change in desire that happens in long-term relationships. So when we've been with someone for, you know,

18 months or more, we tend to see a drop in what we call spontaneous desire, which means out of the blue desire. So feeling like it for no reason. We see a drop in that. We see a more significant drop for women than we do for men, although it happens for men too. And what we're generally expecting is to always feel some sort of desire out of the blue. That's what we're sold an idea of, aren't we? That if you love someone, if you're in a good relationship, then you should just feel like sex sometimes. And so when people don't feel that, they get really worried. There's something wrong. And their partners often get really worried that there's something wrong. And then sex can start to feel awkward, can start to feel like the elephant in the room.

People start avoiding any kind of physical affection in case it looks like a sign they want it to go anywhere and because they're not feeling desire, they don't want it to go anywhere. So before you know it, you're starting to feel really uncomfortable around sex and your relationship. So if I'm really honest, Dr. Karen, you know, sometimes I feel a sense of resentment towards sex as a whole. It feels like there are so many needs as a ma'am. So to give you context, I have a three-year-old, a six-year-old and a near eight-year-old. You know, there are so many needs coming towards me that it just feels like another one often that you have to tick. And because my husband's an adult, he's not, you know, he's not a child. Often I feel like, well,

actually, you can, I'm not, I'm not even going to try with that one because there are so many needs around me that are more kind of pertinent or coming from children that actually that's one that can, can go. So then it creates this dynamic and then you have that whole unspoken conversation. And then it becomes, and so many people, my friends, you know, we talk about it when it becomes a, it's, it becomes a thing. Yeah. A thing. And that's like a hope that you feel coming towards you that actually can then spark resentment.

And as you say, kind of sometimes avoidance. So we try and speak openly about when it feels like it's becoming a thing. But, you know, what you're saying really, really resonates. And I think there'll be many people just feeling really relieved at him. hearing that, but also wondering then where to go. You know, I think we can look back over years and think actually that that was a really beneficial part of our relationship. There is something good about how sex can connect us. So there can be this awareness that whilst it might be lacking or less than we maybe expect or would like, there is something good about it as well.

So where do we go from this place of accepting that desire kind of unprompted is low at this stage of life? But actually, there is something good about it as well. So where can we go with that? So there's a couple of things I would suggest. The first is it's quite important for us to recognize the role that sex plays in our well-being and in our relationship, well-being and satisfaction. So we know that sexual satisfaction is highly linked. to relationship satisfaction and so for us or our partners to feel that that part of a relationship isn't working so well does tend to have an impact on relationship satisfaction and our

well-being so it is important that we can pay some attention to it although it does not need to be the biggest priority when there's other things going on so that's one thing it's useful to understand about ourselves and our partners the role that sex plays for us particularly because we've been socialised to think that desire is this urge, this thing that we just have and we're just having sex for a recreational pursuit just for the idea of having sex. Actually, it's more usually about meeting psychological and relational needs and it's worth understanding that about each other. So, you know, when we're not having sex, how does that impact us? Do we start to feel less close? Do we start to feel less connected? Do we start to feel undesired? Do we start to

feel not so strong as a couple. And understanding these things about ourselves and crucially, our partner, can really help us navigate the times when sex slips down the priority list for good reason. So for example, if we discover through talking to our partners that the reason that they like to have sex is because they really want to feel that they're still attractive to us. That's the key reason, their key motivation. Then we don't need to meet that. We don't need to meet that need with sex, we can find other ways when sex isn't happening to help them feel that way, for example. And for those of the listeners that are in heterosexual relationships, there can be a bit of a risk, especially with male partners, of assuming that men just want sex for the physical

release of it or just want sex for sex's sake. And men, of course, have the same psychological needs and relational needs around sex than women do. So it's important to understand. those. So that would be my first thing. Understand the relevance of sex in your relationship, both for overall satisfaction and for personal and relational reasons, and then find ways to navigate that when sex isn't happening. The second thing is understand how desire works. Desire can feature as much as you want it to in your relationship when the time is right. It just needs nurturing in a situation of low pressure. So, as you mentioned, mentioned earlier, when you feel someone's coming towards you, wanting some thing, that's a time when

our desire gets extinguished. So pressure is not good. And high sexual currency. And sexual currency is a term I use to describe the charge between us. And so when we back off from each other physically, when there's very low physical affection or very low sexual innuendo, very low flirting, that's the hardest time to feel sexual about someone else. So desire can be nurtured as much as we want it too. But it's important to note that sometimes in life there are other priorities. And having young children is a perfect example of a time when there is quite a lot on the to-do list, isn't there? We all know this. Yeah, I'm nodding away. There's a lot on the to-do list. Because we understand desire better now in sex science and we know that desire is less of a

physical urge and more of a motivation. We have to have enough to motivate us to move towards sex. So sex has to be rewarding. It has to be fun. It has to be as much for us as someone else. But also, we have to not have a really high to-do list of other things because we're not going to be motivated towards it if we're distracted by a million and one other things that needs doing. And that's normal. That's not a problem with you or your desire. That's normal. And you know, you mentioned earlier about having, you know, three children and a partner who's an adult.

And it really got me thinking about lots of conversations I have with women with male partners who say, I actually feel like I've got four children because I feel like I run the house and I have to pick up after them and keep charge of everything in terms of thinking about that life. admin more than anyone else and when your head is full like that of other priorities when the burden falls on you to remember kids birthday parties to remember to be on all the WhatsApp chats your brain is too full for desire to be nurtured and that's really normal well this you know this is so helpful and I think what strikes me is about the intentionality of having these conversations around desire and having these conversations around what that means to you. These are conversations to be had, aren't they? And I think, you know, there needs to be that intention that this is a relationship

that needs to be nurtured. And if we want it to go from here to here, we need to do things. We need to, we need to talk. We need to have that kind of emotional openness and honesty before we just expect that that sexual spark will be there. And I think that second thing about intention. intentionality is, is, you know, that sexual currency of choosing to do things differently or just to extend a hand to touch a back or an arm or, you know, just to move that few inches closer on a sofa. And I remember going to a wedding. This was years ago before I've been married for kind of 12 years myself. And this was kind of even before then. And I remember someone saying, you know, love is, is a feeling. But it's also something we know,

need to act lovingly to create the feeling of love. Love is a decision. She said love is a decision and sometimes we need to decide to act lovingly because we will not always feel in love. And I think that this is reminding me of that is that desire to have that as part of your life. You know fundamentally that you care about the person. You might feel that loving feeling. You might feel that kind of fundamental attractiveness. But then there's the decisions that we make on top of that, that nurture then those feelings that come. So it's that intentionality. Intentionality is such a good word for it because, you know, I often say that if you choose to be in a long-term monogamous relationship, which many people do as your

relationship structure, it's really important you understand that that's not the best conditions for sexual satisfaction long term unless you have some intentionality. Intentionality about it. So, you know, it's normal for our desire to drop off in that context. It's normal for our brains to need quite a lot of novelty and unpredictability to keep us sexually interested and that can be hard to do with the same person. It's absolutely possible to have a brilliant sex life with the same person that lasts for a lifetime, but not without intentionality, not without understanding desire, not without understanding each other, not without nurturing the aspect of the relationship, that absolutely means, that it absolutely doesn't mean that you have to have sex

when you don't want to. In fact, having sex when you don't want to diminish his desire over time. We know that to be true. But it does mean thinking about sexual currency. It does mean thinking about the meaning of sex for the relationship and what will happen if you don't nurture that sexual currency. And in my experience, actually, of working with lots of couples around this, when couples increase sexual currency so when the culture of their relationship moves from friendship to flirtatious kind of you know the odd kind of bum grab or the odd kind of wink or a bit of a sex text it doesn't have to mean any sex but when the culture of the relationship changes people feel sexually satisfied whether they're having sex or not because those reasons that they want to have

sex for the first place to you know to feel close to feel attractive to the other, to express attraction, to feel like a strong couple outside of parenthood. Those reasons are met by sexual currency. Yeah, this is brilliant. And I think, you know, that intentionality can feel like a bit of a heavy word for those who feel like there is already so much on their shoulders, you know, that sense of, so it's another thing I've got to be intentional about. It's another thing I've got to be proactive about.

But then I think about parenting. And for me, you know, the bigger picture of parenting means that I will have these conversations with my husband to make sure we're trying to be on the same page. Or if one of us has read something, we'll share it with the other around different techniques. And it's hard, but I'm thinking about the bigger picture. And the bigger picture means enough for me for those to be doing those kind of day-to-day things that sometimes do feel a bit sacrificial, actually. Yes, absolutely. It does, it can feel sacrificial. And I think, you know, when I apply that to what you're talking about, and I think if we, and this is the powerful thing is it, if you can be on the same page and to be on the same page means to have these conversations, then you don't feel like you're carrying in all of that intentionality is sitting with you. Because I guess that's when that resentment can can creep in for people. So it's, yeah. And also, you know, to bring that intention. to conversations around these are the things that support my desire being nurtured and make me feel

sexual. These are the things that don't and really extinguish it. That's a really important conversation to have. So, you know, it's, for example, it's really hard for me to prioritize sex when I'm the only person doing the laundry, the washing up, all the WhatsApp groups, my head is full. That's a really important thing for somebody to know to be able to support moving forward with your sex life as a couple yeah and the vulnerability that this can you know it can feel like a very vulnerable thing i think explaining and exploring these things and and recognizing that you're not the same as your partner so and looking at perhaps the places where you've assumed that they're wired a certain way or that their desire is prompted by

certain things and actually you know having these vulnerable and open conversations probably then going to lead to more that sense of connection. Yeah, absolutely. So helpful. Thank you. I think the thing I'm going to take away is just that is that intentionality and thinking about the bigger picture and where you'd like to be and how sometimes it is it is about prioritising and that can feel sacrificial time, energy emotion wise. But if you're both working towards you know, you're both aiming for the same thing to feel safe and loved and connect. whatever that might look like then it can be done

it can be done absolutely and if people want I've got some free resources on how to have these early conversations on it's there's a link through my Instabio but I've got free resources around that if people want to have a couple of questions and sit down together

and use the questions to guide the conversation yeah thank you so much for those I read on your website about how passionate you are about equipping people with some of the tools that, you know, often is behind a pay barrier of private therapy or couples therapy. And actually, you know, this is what you do. You're putting many of these out there for people just out of that kind of love and passion for them to feel, yeah, more seen and heard and connected. So thank you so much, Dr.Cham, for everything that you do.

Pleasure. So to finish off, I've got a few little quickfire questions for you. Okay. So what is a motherhood high for you? Motherhood high for me is our boys are now six and ten and of an age where we can do really fun stuff with them, like days out activities. So basically going out as a family, having a great day, going somewhere new, exploring, those are the motherhood highs for me. I love that. I love that.

And I think for those in the trenches of those early, early kind of months and years, that will be so affirming to think that that. But that is ahead. And we're experiencing that. We're starting to feel that now. And it's, yeah, it's wonderful. It's wonderful. It is. It is. And what is a motherhood low for you? It's so funny you should say what you just said, because I remember at the lows, which were definitely the early days, you know, the lack of sleep and all the trials and tribulations of those early few months. I remember my partner saying to me when I was having a particularly bad day, remember at some point in the future, we're all going to go kayaking. And it's going to be a sunny day. And it's going to be a sunny day. and we'll all be on a river kayaking and it's going to be wonderful and I remember that vision

pulling me through and now I feel like we're at that stage so have you done it yet at the kayaking yes we have oh wow oh how lovely for anyone who's in those dark early days of no sleep and little little reward and it gets better yeah daydream about those things in the future and keep moving towards them and what's one thing that makes you feel good for you kickboxing oh wow yes love it lose myself in kickboxing i love that i have no coordination so whenever any move like that comes up i'm just i might as well just stand there and do star jumps so i'm always in such admiration for for people who can who can do that and finally how would you describe motherhood in three words three words okay i'm going to go for challenging

a privilege and fun. Challenging, a privilege and fun. Yeah, it's a real high and low mixture. Yeah, but mostly high. Yes, yeah. Well, thank you so much. And I love that tip about the kayaking for you and thinking what that might be.

So thank you so much. Thank you. And people can head to your Instagram. That's a great place to go. And then you've got the link in your bio and that just will take people to all of the different resources and TED Talks and work that you've got out there and a different access point. So thank you again, Dr. Cairn.

Thanks for having me on. Bye-bye. Thank you for listening to today's episode of The Therapy Edit. If you enjoyed it, please do share, subscribe or review because it makes a massive difference to how many people it can reach. You can find more from me on Instagram at Anna Martha. You might like to check out my three. books Mind Over Mother, Know Your Worth, and my new book, The Little Book of Calm for new

mums, grounding words for the highs, the lows and the moments in between. It's a little book you don't need to read it from front to back. You just pick whatever emotion resonates to find a mantra, a tip and some supportive words to bring comfort and clarity. You can also find all my resources, guides and videos, all with the sole focus of supporting your emotional and mental well-being as a mum. They are all 12 pounds and you can find them on Anna Martha.com. I look forward to speaking with you soon.