The Therapy Edit - One Thing with Emma Gannon on taking a year of NOTHING

Episode Date: May 24, 2024

In this guest episode of The Therapy Edit, Anna chats to the incredible Emma Gannon about how she took an unplanned year off to address her burnout and enjoyed a year of nothing.As one of the top writers on Substack with The Hyphen, Sunday Times bestselling author Emma Gannon is well known for writing and podcasting about career/wellbeing however her latest book A Year of Nothing, couldn’t be more different.In this memoir, release by indie publisher The Pound Project, Emma reveals what happened in 2022 when, despite having an award-winning podcast Ctrl Alt Delete and ‘not even working crazily hard’ she suffered a breakdown brought on by existential burnout. Unable to look at a screen or even walk down the road, the famously productive entrepreneur then decided to take an unplanned year off. During this time Emma, who is also happy to speak about being child-free by choice, kept a diary and discovered how the most mundane parts of life were not only full of wisdom but also the most fun to write about and formed the basis of this new book.A Year of Nothing, is available to buy for a limited time only between May 14 and June 4 through The Pound Project website.You can also follow Emma on Instagram

Hello and welcome to The Therapy Edit with me, psychotherapist's mum of three and author Anna Martha. Every Friday, I invite one guest to tell me the one thing they would most like to share with mums everywhere. So join with me as we hear this dose of wisdom. I hope you enjoy it. Hi, everyone. Welcome to today's guest episode of The Therapy Edit. and I have with me today, Emma Gannon. Now, I just had to click record because we were, we've just been chatting away for the last 10 minutes and I just, yeah, didn't want to lose out on the gold. But Emma is someone who has so much gold to give. She takes her life experiences and

turns them into books full of wisdom. I've got many of her books. I've read her book called Disconnected, how to stay human in an online world, the success myth. She's, she's written as well, how to let go of having it all. She's also written sabotage because this is a topic I love thinking and talking about as well, how to silence your inner critic and get out of your own way. She's also got, she's an absolute book machine. She's also got a novel called Olive. Now that's about four friends kind of navigating parenting. That's one of the friends that is childless. So it's all about the dynamics around that. And yeah, just go and immerse yourself in her brilliant book. She is one of the top writers on Substack with the hyphen.

She is a Sunday Times bestselling author, and she is well known for writing and podcasting about career and well-being. And I was fortunate to be on her podcast in lockdown. I vividly remember recording it and chatting with her. And her latest book is a year of nothing. And it couldn't be more different to all her other books. And I can't wait to get my hands on it. And it's a memoir.

And it's released by an indie public. the Pound Project, and she reveals what happened in 2022 and despite having an award-winning podcast, Control or Delete, with over 30 million downloads. And not even working crazyly hard, she suffered a breakdown bought on by existential burnout. And we have, that's what we've been chatting about together and before we hit record, because I massively relate having gone through burnout. And she says that she was unable to look at a screen or even walk down the road. And as a famously productive entrepreneur, she then decided to take an unplanned year off everything. And during this time, Emma, who's also happy to speak about being child free by

choice, kept a diary and discovered how the most mundane parts of life were not only full of wisdom, but also the most fun to write about and form the basis of her new book. Now, a year of nothing, which is an absolute must have, I feel for all of us who feel like we're living on that treadmill that is going slightly too fast and we don't know where the slowdown button is, is available to buy for a limited time between May the 14th and June the 4th. So we're going to be linking that through the Pound Project website. So Emma, it's so lovely to have you here today. I feel really privileged to have you on my podcast. So welcome. Oh, thank you so much. And you are a master at this because you've just summed up the last five years

basically so neatly. So thank you for doing that. I mean, there's still more to say, to be honest. But you are someone, I think he just observes your own life and mind and what's going on around you culturally. And you have the most amazing way of articulating it and having us think as well in a really challenging way around how we navigate the online world because you've worked in the online world for almost like all your working life, really, haven't you? So you've kind of grown up on the internet. And yeah, just challenging our need to have it all.

And yeah, that cruel often full on, not so nice inner critic. So, yeah, just really grateful, really grateful for you. Thank you. I think it's funny you say that I do, I am very, a very thinky person and I'm very, I try and be self-aware, but I think the common thread is I always have to have a lesson from everything. Yes. Which is probably a bit of a flaw as well, because it's like, why can't you just let it be. But that's why I write so many books is I'm like, well, if it's worth sharing, I will. And I think the worth sharing bit is really important because

no one wants to read someone else's diary. It's quite boring. But if there's lessons in there, That's why I'll always publish books, I think, because sharing is really how the world progresses and how we evolve, I think. Yeah. And it's a generous thing to do to kind of share some of those internal thoughts and grappling with people. But I think that's it. And I completely resonate with wanting to share the lessons from it. But yeah, it is hard sometimes, isn't it? Just to think, you know what? Maybe we just feel like this because I just feel like this. And for that to be enough, I'm with you on there wanting to make sense of it a little bit and challenge it a little bit. Yeah, I think there are pros and cons to being a creative person because, you know,

my imagination on one hand is an amazing thing. I've just finished writing my second novel and I've made it all up and how amazing is that. But then my imagination is also a curse because I can imagine, yeah, the world's burning to a crisp tomorrow and, you know, get myself into an anxious spiral. So it's the same really with that need to share. It's like, I'm quite jealous a little bit of my friends and some of my siblings who just live their life and have a glass of wine and just don't overthink. But, you know, this is my path and I'm grateful for it. Yeah. And it comes at a cost, but I think there are many, many, many people out there that are also grateful. Grateful for it being your part. I hope so. I hope so.

Yeah. So I would love to ask you with all that you've been through, all that you've thought of, all that you've written, all that you've journeyed through in burnout. I'd love to know what is the one thing that you would like to share with everyone. So I wanted to share the importance of being childlike. And it feels different from being childish and immature. It's like a very specific way of embracing the world where you let yourself be the big kid that you are. And it's something that really came out so strongly during my burnout episode, which was this cry from like inside.

I'm not going to use the word inner child, even though that's probably what it was. I feel like that's been so Americanized and like made into this sort of cliche. But I think we squash that creative playful side of us when we turn into adults and I try and hang on to that. That's so interesting. I think especially, yeah, as we grow up,

that kind of gets lost along the way, is it almost like beaten out of us and we have to be grown up and we want to be grown up before we even grown up and we want to have responsibilities and then actually I often find now I've got a ton of responsibilities sometimes I think I don't want to be a grown up anymore so what does this look like for you and tell us a little bit about yeah is it if you always recognize that is that been a conclusion that you you came to in that time of burnout or and how has that manifested in you What does that look like? Yeah.

Well, I think the reason I burnt out so badly was for so many reasons, and I'm honestly still trying to unpick it because it could have been just, you know, going into my mid-30s, it could have been acknowledging that I'm going to be child-free and actually grieving the life I could have had. It could be the fact that, you know, I was overworking in a way that was unproductive to being sustainable. I wasn't exercising.

There was so many things. Like, I've totally changed my life around. so I'm thankful for it. But the main thing I think is I was not having any fun. I just wasn't laughing. I wasn't being silly. I was being so serious. I couldn't remember the last time I just,

I don't know, like did fancy dress and went out and had fun. You know, I'd really lost that side of myself. I was taking my career just super seriously. And it's not even a serious career, you know, it's fun. So that was what was crying out really was, you know, I couldn't do anything. I couldn't even look at a screen. I couldn't even make toast.

I couldn't get out of bed. I couldn't even walk down the street without everything feeling really like the upside down in stranger things. Like it was horrific and weird. And I thought I was going mad. But, you know, as soon as I just lent into it and stopped trying to force another way, you know, I watched the Disney Channel. I borrowed a friend's dog. I wore fun clothes. My sister made me this pasta dish.

that she used to make me when we were little, this like really cheesy pasta bake. I really just craved all the childlike stuff. And I do think that's where the healing comes from. And also, this is so embarrassing to share honestly, but I bought myself a cuddly toy. And I bought it from this shop in Brussels when I went on a little solo trip.

Because I was like, I just want it. And it's like the inner me, like the kid me wanted it. And like my husband was just like, oh my God, that's not going on the bed. But it was just funny. I love this. Oh my gosh, it's making me want to go and get a snuggly toy. But tell me, did you feel like these things had been lacking before your burnout? Did you feel like, gosh, I haven't like belly ate laughed in a while. I haven't had fun or done anything silly or just for the sake of doing something fun. Did you feel like that was missing? Were you aware that that was missing? I wasn't consciously aware of it, no. And I think we can really beat ourselves up, I think, when we get ill or something happens because we're like, why didn't we know? And actually, the people around me didn't really know either.

And only you can really figure it out in hindsight, I think. But if I look back, I think I was being, because I believe we all, we all have different parts to ourselves. And my work side or my serious side or whatever, I call it my performer side, like I was performing being me rather than being me, which takes a lot of energy, hence why I needed to sleep all the time. So yeah, I felt like I was performing myself, which is an element of my job. You know, I go on stage and I record podcasts and I host things. So that side of myself was taking over and I think the fun side of me was like, please can I have some of your time? Wow. That's so powerful. I think there'll be so many or light bulbs going off at the moment.

Did you feel silly? Was there a part of you that was battling with that, that more childlike part of you as you started kind of leading into it? Or did it just feel like actually this is what I need to do? I'm not over, I don't have the energy to overthink it. I'm just going with it. What was it like?

Do you know what? It's funny because it felt a lot deeper than also just being silly and putting on dopamine dressing clothes because I went to a workshop with Elizabeth Gilbert. This was actually not that long ago, but it was like the sort of tied the bow on it all, where with your left hand or your non-dominant hand, you write yourself a letter like from your younger self.

And it's in bad handwriting, so it feels really interesting, the part of your brain that's writing it. And essentially then we had to write back from our older self all the things our younger self would love to hear, like I'm proud of you you're doing really well um you know I've got you because I'm 35 now I can I can hold that younger me and be like we're cool I've got this like I've got a good job I've got a nice house like things are going to be okay um and so the childlike thing you know

it's like giving space to that part of you that's like I don't know if this is making sense but just connecting those two sides of you basically. I read this book a while ago actually called The Way of Integrity by Martha Beck and it's all about just we just want to be whole. We just want all sides of ourselves to feel part of the party, I guess. Yeah, so just kind of recognising

those little opportunities then of where that part of you is saying, I wouldn't do that, I want that snugly toy, I want a hug, I want to eat cheesy pasta and just welcoming welcoming her to the table rather than shutting her down. Exactly, because

you know, there is no real difference between me now and me then. Like, I like buying stationery. I like reading books under the covers. I like watching films and like eating popcorn. Like these are things that bring me so much joy. Like I remember when I first read Matilda by Roaldahl when I was like six years old or something.

And that same feeling is the feeling I get when I go into Waterstones. Like nothing's changed. It's just that we kind of squash that side of ourselves down. So I'm really trying to embrace that side of me, but also like be a responsible adult at the same time. A difficult balance sometimes. I'm trying to do this as well. And I never forget my birthday and my husband bought me a micro scooter.

Like a grown-up scooter. Yeah. Not like one with a, you know, a motor on or anything. And the funny thing is that he didn't realize is that I'd seen this woman micro-scoating past my house numerous times and I'd thought, goodness say, you're a grown woman. And it was almost at this, I think this judgment that was actually fueled by envy of the fact that she was whizzing around on a scooter for fun with her kids and she was doing that. And I for some reason didn't feel like that was a grown-up thing to do.

and I had, maybe this judgment was showing something of my, you know, envy that she could do that. So he gave me this massive parcel and it was a scooter. And I absolutely fippin love it. And I will offer anyone a ride that looks at me funny. I'm like, oh my gosh, you need to go. And it's like that in a, that part of me that is saying, yeah, this is fun. And it's silly and it's therapeutic. and maybe we need more of that.

Like maybe just whizz down the shopping aisle with your trolley and do that thing where you kind of jump up on it and you glide and look for those little chances. So Emma, this has been just so lovely to think about. What about that person then that's listening thinking, I just haven't done anything fun for me for the sake of it. Maybe it feels pointless. Maybe it even feels selfish.

but it's hard to kind of justify and it's hard to even work out what that might be. What advice would you like to give that person? Well, firstly, it's really important to do these things because even if you might feel it selfish, if you really want to reframe it as being for others, like you can do that too because when we give ourselves this energy and this time and creativity or whatever you want to call it, like we are better friends, we are better parents, we are better people, we have more time. Like when I'm in a good mood, I give so much money to charity. Like all these things are really good for us and we should encourage it in society. So I don't know if anyone listening has heard

of Julia Cameron. They probably have the author of the artist's way. But she is like the creativity godmother to so many of us. And she, um, she calls it the artist date, this idea of taking yourself on a date and it doesn't have to be like candles and wine and that sort of date. It's more about just take yourself out on, you know, a little excursion and it doesn't have to be very long either. It could be half an hour or an hour or whatever. But she just says, go and do something different and don't put too much pressure on it. Like take yourself to a museum, go to a zoo, go to a stationary shop, go to a new restaurant, go and get a coffee in some way you've never had a coffee before, take a new route on your walk home, sit in the garden and

like Google what the plant is that you're looking at. Like it could literally start so small. Like this doesn't have to be, I need to go to a theme park and be crazy. Like it's so small. And I love her for that because there's always an entry point. Like it's so easy. I love this. And I think what you said at the beginning about how, you know, do it for other people. and how it actually gives you the resources to put more of yourself out. And yeah, what you can do and what you can give into the world when you have a bit more energy in order to do so and to start small. And also what you said about how maybe encouraging people to do it as a bit of an experiment. Like if you don't actually think that it's going to help you, just suspend that judgment for a little moment and just think, right, okay, for a week.

I'm going to spend so many minutes a day or half an hour a day doing something fun for the sake of it. And I'm just going to see if it makes a difference. Because I think you and I would both agree that it really does. And we deserve to have fun. We do. Well, I would love to finish off by asking you about a year of nothing and just telling us, what is the feeling that you hope people will come away with having read a year of nothing? what the feeling yeah well i hope they feel inspired maybe to take more risks in doing less

which sounds countercultural because we're meant to take risks and grow a big business but i think it's risky to step away and do less and do do nothing sometimes um but i hope it's comforting and soothing it's quite a relaxing book at the at the top of each chapter there's like a to do list and my to-do list is like go and see my mom and, you know, watch a film. Like it's, it's basically all these things I never did because I'm such a workaholic for the last 10 years. I'd never really watch TV or do, you know, I really was terrible at doing the small things. And so it's like an anti sort of to-do list book. It's sort of just seeing where the day takes you. And I feel so lucky I've got to say because because of my job I did have savings. I'm also child free so I don't

have like a lot of outgoings necessarily in that department. So I was able to take some time off. I also sold a load of my clothes on Vinted and just like squirled away all this money to like basically pay for my my time off. But yeah, I just hope people feel like really relaxed when they read it and really like they're doing they're doing a good job as they are. You know, know, like the small things are really everything. And also I hope they feel like maybe they could write something because my book is, it's really about like the mundane of life. So for people that are like, oh, I can't be a writer because I've got nothing important or exciting to write about. It's like, no, everyone is a writer. Like you can write about nothing. I guess that's the point. I love this. Oh, it makes me drop my shoulder that she just even as you speak thinking about the simplicity. I feel like I've just got rid of half my house sorting through everything. and it just feels so much lighter and so much better. And I think often we think the answer to the challenges that we face internally and externally is, you know, I need to add more, I need to resource myself more,

I need to read more. And actually, sometimes it's just stepping back and stepping down and breathing deeply and slowing where you can. And that's the answer. But it's not as, you know, commercial and it's not going to get a load of money for different businesses is when actually we're pulling back. So it is really difficult. Yeah.

And it's hard. It is hard to do. But I think the other learning was when you pull back, you are letting more come in. Like for all those spare time, like spare hours I had, life happens to you as well as you going and getting life. Like you don't have to smash the day because the day will bring you things. Like there will be times where I would just be cooking and there'll be a knock on the door. and it would be someone from my street who in the past I would just want them to go away. But we would chat for like 15 minutes and then that would spur an idea of where I might go on holiday next.

Or, you know, life is just so rich when you just let things, yeah, come into your life rather than going chasing it, I think. That's amazing. Oh, thank you. So inspiring. I'm so grateful for you, Emma, and all that you share. So thank you so much. I'd love to finish off with a quick fire question. What is one thing that makes you feel good at the moment? You've given us some, but what makes me feel good?

Saying no, I guess. Oh, yeah. Because it's a new thing for me, honestly. I still feel really awkward saying it. But yeah, saying no, it makes me feel really, really good. Yeah. You're saving something of yourself. Brilliant.

Well, thank you so much for your wisdom, and I encourage everyone to go over to, the Pound Project website and grab a copy of a year of nothing between May the 14th and June the 4. So it's only available for a limited time. So you must put a reminder in your calendar and take advantage and feel yourself inspired and give lots of permission just to pull back, slow down and live a little bit more as a result. So thank you, Emma. Thank you so much. I love your work too. And I loved interviewing you a few years ago and what you're doing is amazing. So thank you. Thank you. Mutual appreciation.

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