The Therapy Edit - One Thing with Harriet Shearsmith on navigating estrangement or dysfunctional relationships with your own parents

Episode Date: April 26, 2024

In this very special guest episode of The Therapy Edit, Anna chats to Harriet Shearsmith about how listeners can navigate an estrangement or dysfunctional relationship with their parents, especially when they're trying to break the cycle in their own parenting.Harriet is an author, empowerment coach and podcast host of Unfollowing Mum who focusses on cycle breaking parenting, navigating estrangement or toxic relationships with your parents and healing childhood trauma. Follow Harriet on Instagram here.Listen to her podcat, Unfollowing Mum, here.Order Harriet's book, Mumming ItVisit her blog

Hello and welcome to The Therapy Edit with me, psychotherapist, mum of three and author Anna Martha. Every Friday, I invite one guest to tell me the one thing they would most like to share with mums everywhere. So join with me as we hear this dose of wisdom. I hope you enjoy it. Hi, everyone. Welcome to today's guest episode of The Therapy Edits. I'm really, really excited to bring this episode to you. I think it's a topic that is so not often spoken about. And I have got Harriet Shearsmith here.

She's on Instagram as Toby and Rue. And I have actually been following her. Honestly, Harriet, I think you were probably one of the first people that I followed when I started out on Instagram. So years, really. Yeah, years. And Harry is an author, an empowerment coach, and a podcast host of Unfollowing Mum, which we'll talk about in a minute. And she focuses and is absolutely passionate about cycle-breaking parenting, navigating estrangement or toxic relationships with your parents and healing childhood trauma. So we've already been chatting, and I should have just clicked record, to be honest, right from the off about the topics that you discuss on Instagram and how.

how needed needed they are. Oh, thank you so much for having me. Thank you for having me here. I think that's exactly it. It is so needed. It's such a taboo topic. And I think it's one that it surprised me quite a lot when I first started talking about it, how very much it relates with so many people. Like I thought this was, you know, quite isolated and that I was probably going to be talking about something that not many people would get. But hopefully the people that did get it, it would be helpful for them. no, this is something that affects so many people and it's just so shrouded in shame that we don't discuss it. So we all think that we're alone with it and we're far from it.

Yeah. And that's the powerful thing, isn't it? When you do start kind of speaking out about, and for you, it's talking about kind of parenting estrangement. And then you do, other people start opening up. And that's when the shame does start getting chipped away at. And that's why people, I would say, where there is help, there is hope. That's where people know that there are they're not alone and as a psychotherapist and I think on social media there is often so much chat around instilling boundaries in relationships and seeking respect and respecting yourself and you know instilling and addressing kind of dynamics so that they're that a bit more healthier when actually sometimes in reality in action that can mean that that other person

isn't able to honor those boundaries isn't able to respect your need and desire to be respected. And I think this is often unspoken about that sometimes the good work that we do in ourselves and the standards that we learn to expect from relationships that are maybe much healthier can lead to a rupture of relationships. It can lead to the fact that other person isn't able to kind of meet you in that. And that is what you talk about. And that is what I think, yeah, needs to have a bigger voice. So I'm grateful. Oh, thank you. I think you're absolutely right. I think we talk so frequently about boundaries, about self-respect and all of these wonderful things that are very important. But what happens when you get

to that ultimate boundary where you have to say no more and someone can't respect you and won't do the self-work, won't be accountable for the things that have happened and meet you in a place? Because you're not asking someone to come, you know, when you look at parental estrangement and the people that I've worked with, both as a coach and throughout my community that I've chatted with, in my own experience, you're not asking someone to come the whole way and saying to them, you know, we need to have you repair all of this. You've got to do all the work. You're saying meet me halfway. And when they're unwilling to do that or unable to do that, that's when that ultimate boundary comes in. And that's so difficult for people to accept sometimes that that is

the ultimate boundary, that that is a difficult place that people find themselves in. Yeah, absolutely so with all of your knowledge and through your experience but also the coaching that you do what would you love to say to those listening maybe it might be very personally that some people are resonating with what you're saying it might be actually they've got a friend or they know someone well who is estranged from their parents or has a really kind of difficult dynamic in that relationship and they've never quite understood maybe maybe why so what would you love to say to those listening wherever they're listening from. Do you know, I think that's so difficult to narrow it down to just one thing because there's so many things that I would love to say. But I think the underlining factor of estrangement and of being a cycle breaker is this sense of guilt and this sense of shame. And that actually you do not owe a relationship to anyone,

regardless of who they are, whether they are your parent, whether they are a family member, you don't owe a relationship to any of these people. if they can't respect your boundaries and if they can't treat you with that love and that compassion that you deserve and that you're willing to treat them with and that working on yourself and growing and evolving and changing as a person, becoming an adult, stepping into your own identity, that's not disrespect, that's not betrayal, that's not anything that a healthy parent would push against. They're things that we encourage in our children. And accepting yourself as you are is a really powerful place to be in. And if other people can't do that, regardless of who

they are, they may not have a place in your life. And that's okay. And I think to people listening who have not experienced this, but who are either know somebody who has experienced it or often find themselves sitting in a place of judgment and thinking, well, you only get one mom or how could you step away from a parent? You know, it's such an important relationship. It isn't an easy decision that someone comes to. It's not, you don't wake up on a Tuesday and go, do you know what? My mom doesn't respect me and I've decided I'm going to cut ties with her. This is a drawn-out process that can take years, decades sometimes to come to a conclusion that absolutely nobody wants to get to. I have never spoken to anybody who is estranged, who's cut contact with a

parent whose choice would have been to essentially orphan themselves, to not have that parent in their life. Everybody wants that extra support. Everybody wants that person that they can turn to when they're having a bad day and ring up and say this or that person that they can ring up and say, hey, mom, I've passed this test or I've done this. This is amazing. Or, oh, my baby walked for the first time. Nobody makes that decision lightly. And it's come after years and years and years of trying to rebuild a relationship to trying to repair that rupture and just not being met in a place that facilitates that. So finding compassion in place of guilt perhaps and judgment, whether it's towards yourself or other people. And I think what you said that,

I mean, it was a bit of a might drop moment, to be honest, and I'd love to repeat it because I think it will be so relevant to so many, if not in the in this context. maybe in other context, maybe in a work context, maybe in a friendship context, you do not owe anybody a relationship. And that is just, and that is just so powerful and affirming and disturbing in one of the best ways because it goes against one of those biggest shoulds that I think we often carry is, but I should invest in this person, but I should share this about myself, but I should when actually you're saying you don't owe a relationship to anybody, regardless of who they are, what place relationship they have in your life. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's so

important and so powerful to be able to accept that and to say, I don't owe this person a relationship. We often hear in difficult family dynamics of people saying, and even in normal family dynamics, I think it's something that most of us have heard that grew up of our generation, that after all I've done for you, and oh, you're so ungrateful, especially towards teenagers and kids growing up, it's something that I myself have heard pop out and thought, oh, no, we don't want to say to them, you're being ungrateful for the basic things, because they're my responsibility as a parent. and they don't owe me anything for fulfilling those obligations as a parent. Does that mean I don't want them to say please and thank you? Absolutely not. Of course not. But in terms of owing me that

relationship, if I can't respect them, then no, they don't owe me that and I don't owe it to anyone else. It's a place that is earned in your life and that you have to keep building on a relationship to take work from both sides. If we're not willing to do that, then our trust, children, and we as children of our parents have a right to protect ourselves from that. Yeah. I think this will be, yeah, just speaking to so many people, what would you say to the person listening who is stuck in a really painful cycle? And that should, you know, I should be, I should be, keep this relationship out. I should be grateful. I should maintain that contact, contact and they haven't perhaps thought that there could be another way. What would you,

what would you like to say to that person who's, yeah, just had that light bulb moment of, wow, I hadn't actually even thought that a stranger could be an option. That's a really difficult realization to come to and I think it is such a big powerful one. So go gentle with yourself is probably the first thing that I would say because when that light bulb moment hits you, I think there's a lot of self-shaming and self-guilting of why did I allow this to continue on for so long? And I know before we hit record, we were talking about that hope that keeps things going and keeps you hoping that if you just say this in the right way to your parent, if you just explain to them why you need to put this boundary up and that you're not upsetting them because you're doing X, Y, Z, be it moving on with a partner or going on holiday without them or whatever that might be, then they will be able to understand. that and that the problem must lie with you. But you do not have a responsibility to anybody. And equally, it's not your responsibility to change anyone else's behavior. That's not within

the realm of your control. So if you step back from the situation, look objectively at what is within the realm of your control. You do control whether or not you continue in this cycle. You do control whether or not you should yourself into having this relationship. I remember somebody telling me once that should is just another way in which we scold ourselves. And that's always really stuck with me that should is such a scolding word. It's when we're berating ourselves, when we're forcing ourselves to do something we don't necessarily want to do or that we feel obligated to do. If you can remove that should and step back from it and say, what do I want in this? What's within my control? I don't have to have a relationship with this person. And it is

not my responsibility or within the realm of my control to change the way that they are behaving, to help them to grow, to help them to see how their behaviour is impacting our relationship, then you can move forward as you want to proceed. And yes, there might be guilt and shame around that, but that is where that inner child work comes in, that shadow work of saying to yourself, okay, whose voice is it that's making me feel guilty? Is it mine? Or is this from a parent saying to me I should do this, that I'm being ungrateful, challenging those narratives and sitting with them and saying, well, actually, I'm allowed to want to progress in my life. I'm allowed to want to be happy. And this relationship is making me unhappy. And it's okay for me to choose to step away from

that. Yeah, really, permission, giving words. And actually speaks to another question that I had in mind as you were talking. As children, we're egocentric, which basically means that we think the world revolves around us. And if parents feel angry or upset, we tend to think as children that it's got something to do with us, that it's our fault somehow. So therefore, when there is really unfair treatment or abuse, it is very common that children feel like it is somehow their fault and that can be really hard to shake and often ends up with adults feeling like yeah taking a lot of responsibility for how other people feel and respond to them even when it is absolutely not their fault so what would you say to the person who is recognizing that actually

the way their parent has treated them or responded to them is different and as they've grown up, they've recognized that there are differences in those family dynamics to maybe what they see around them. But they still struggle with that feeling of maybe, maybe it was me, maybe it was my fault. I think that's such a common thread and something that I relate to so heavily. I am still, it's still an inner child wound that I have and that I have battled with of saying, you know, someone's angry. Could that be my fault? Have I done something? and always worrying that it's me that has caused the problem when it has nothing to do with me. It's not your fault if your parent chose not to do the work and chose not to break the cycles,

chose not to work on their own traumas, their own experiences, to be able to parent you in the way that you needed. That's not your fault. That's not your responsibility. And reflecting on your experiences, more often than not what we see is a pattern. of behavior where you've continually jumped through hoops, trying to please, trying to be the good son or daughter, trying to fulfill whatever it is that your parent wants of you and always falling short no matter what. And that's not on you. That is on the continually moving goalposts. And they will always continue to move. There nothing will ever be good enough if you have a parent who is of that mindset that you are not enough.

but you are enough and that's okay for you to be able to let go of that feeling that you've created this because you have not created this. This is not something that is your responsibility and it's not something that was your responsibility as a child to fix. It's never your responsibility as a child to fix. The responsibility of creating the foundation of a relationship is on the parent and that's something that I have had to accept as a parent and as a child that that responsibility to create that foundation was on my mother and that she couldn't manage to do that and that she weaponised that.

And that for my children, it's my responsibility to create that safe space, to co-regulate with them, to navigate this relationship with them. But it's my responsibility. And as an adult child who's had to step away, one of the biggest things is saying that was not my fault. And it's okay for you to acknowledge that

to accept that that that was not your fault and nothing you could have done would have made that any different. And you must have to say that quite a few times to that inner child of yours for that. Oh yeah. And maybe you always will to a degree, but I just, yeah, it's a really, really important and powerful and life-giving place to get to and thing to start saying. I feel like you're just speaking. You'll literally be speaking directly into the ears of people.

that absolutely need to hear this and I would love you to tell us a little bit more about the podcast so and any other resources that you have that you would love just to kind of point people towards who have been listening and you've just been speaking straight into their situation they're thinking my goodness where do I go now what what can I do now from here yeah so my podcast unfollowing mum I set it up because I wanted to be able to give a voice to people who've had different experiences surrounding a toxic family dynamic, estrangement who are working to break generational trauma, and not everybody who comes on there is estranged. Some episodes are solo episodes where I talk about

my experiences or the things that I have learned about toxic family dynamics, about narcissistic parents, and all of these different things that relate to my situation. But I also speak to people on a fairly regular basis about their experiences. And what I've found is that there is this real sense of community and of community healing in recognizing that we're not alone in this situation. It's actually quite a common situation for people to go through and stand-alone charity, who are the charity that deal with estrangement. They often work a lot with students and support students because there are financial implications to estrangement there. They have studied and come to the conclusion that there are roughly one in four people in the UK who are impacted by

estrangement. That's an astronomical amount of people. So having that space on the podcast where we can share our experiences, where we can share what we went through as children, but also what we've done now to overcome that and to move forward in our lives has been really powerful. And I also recommend for anyone listening who loves a good podcast, there is Insight Pod, which is with Helen Villers and Katie McKenna. And they specialize particularly in narcissistic parents and narcissistic abuse. And they've been, yeah, they've been brilliant in helping with my recovery and helping me to step forward into myself. And I know that might sound like a bit of a kooky saying to step forward into yourself, but so often when you've experienced parental

abuse, you are not allowed to develop a sense of self, not allowed to be you and to develop you as an adult, as somebody who has their own identity, their own autonomy. And that was my experience. So the more healing work that I've done, the more that I've been able to create a foundation of me and find out who I am. And I think that's been one of the most powerful things for me. And that's been really helpful, those podcasts. Amazing. Thank you so much for your compassionate, grounding, empowering,

validating words that I know, you know, I encourage listeners to send this episode onto people that would benefit from hearing Harriet's words. So I'd love to finish off with a little quickfire question and ask you what is number one a parenting high and number two, something that makes you feel good? A number one parenting high is seeing the way in which my son, my eldest son, who turns 13 in a week,

is able to challenge me and hold his own boundaries and take me to task when I get it wrong. And that might sound like a bit of a strange parenting high, but that was something that I never felt able to do. And it really makes me feel proud. of myself as a mother, that I have created a safe enough foundation for him, that he feels that he can challenge, that he feels that he can have his own, say, his own voice and that that will be respected. Even if when it comes to homework, it's not necessarily always greedy.

There are going to be those moments when he's got to get on with it anyway, but he can say what he needs to say about it. And he's not told, don't answer back. He's not told you're not allowed to have an opinion. He is allowed to have an opinion. It's welcomed and it's respected. That is amazing. I just want to, yeah, I mean, that is incredible. And it just shows that that breaking of these kind of sometimes generational cycles and how it's hard, but you're doing it. You're not only challenging and working on how you were parented and the implications of that, but you're also very proactively parenting in a different way to that which you were parented so it's like a double whammy and it's so again it's just another incredible legacy that

that you are giving your children that they will experience very different to that which you did but a lot of time energy and effort I imagine oh very much that's love that that is love isn't it it is and it's difficult to um be able to step out of the blueprint you were given in parenting when it's not a healthy one and to challenge those things and recognize that they're not necessarily healthy and to be able to create a whole new type of parenting that I'm going to get wrong sometimes

but that's where the rupture and repair comes in and how important that is and how hearing my children when I do get it wrong really matters to me. And something that makes me feel good. Oh, on that one I think having a nice cup of coffee It sounds really cliched, having a nice cup of coffee, being able to do some journaling in a morning and just have five minutes on my own and reading a good book. I love reading. And they're things that make me feel good. So I try to incorporate them every day. I love that. It's the simple things that we can tend to try and wedge in somewhere that make us feel good. But Harriet, thank you so much for joining us and for sharing what you do so generously. It undoubtedly makes a difference.

so we're grateful for you. Thank you so much, Anna. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of The Therapy. And if you have enjoyed it, don't forget to subscribe and review for me. Also, if you need any resources at all, I have lots of videos and courses and everything from health anxiety to driving anxiety and people pleasing nail all on my website, Anna Martha.com. And also, don't forget my brand new book, Raising a Happier Mother is out now for you to enjoy. enjoy and benefit from. It's all about how to find balance, feel good and see your children flourish as a result. Speak to you soon.