The Therapy Edit - One Thing with Hollie McNish on how to talk to our children about sex

Episode Date: November 4, 2022

On this episode of The Therapy Edit, Anna chats with poet Hollie McNish and asks her for her One Thing. Holle's One Thing is that as mothers we shouldn't pass on our feelings of shame to our children. Listeners of this episode will be treated to Hollie reading aloud her poetry on the subject.Hollie McNish is a Sunday Times Bestselling poet. Her books Slug, Nobody Told Me and Antigone are available here https://uk.bookshop.org/books/slug-the-sunday-times-bestseller/9780349726359You can follow Hollie on Instagram at @holliepoetry where you'll also see her upcoming live events around globe.

Hello and welcome to The Therapy Edit with me, psychotherapist, mum of three, and author Anna Martha. Every Friday, I invite one guest to tell me the one thing they would most like to share with mums everywhere. So join with me as we hear this dose of wisdom. I hope you enjoy it. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Therapy Edit. I have got Holly McNish with me today. She's on Instagram with Holly Poetry, which is how I found her.

Holly is an author and a poet and a mum. She has written many books. You probably have seen her poetry kind of shared on Instagram. I have been watching, and we've had some technical difficulties over here. And in the meantime, whilst I was waiting, I was watching Holly on YouTube, read out some of her poetry. Oh, my goodness, I highly encourage you to go and have a listen to some of her amazing spoken words. words are thoughtful, articulate. They often leave us with something, sometimes uncomfortable, stirring, jarring in the best kind of way, things that make you think, things that make you

just go, yes, oh my goodness, you've explained exactly one of my experiences and just absolutely beautiful and powerful. And Holly is here with me today. How are you, Holly? I'm good. That was such a last thing to say. That's the best introduction I've ever heard. You've listed your books. You've got Plum, Nobody Told Me, which is on Poetry and Parenthood. You've got Antigone, Cherry Pie and Slug, which I'm hoping I might hear from. Anyway, I've interrupted you. How are you? That's all right. I'm doing very well, thank you. Really good. Brilliant. You've literally run upstairs and grabbed a new laptop to replace your 10-year-old one.

So it's, what are the cool kids say? It's box fresh. It is box fresh, but I've not done an unboxing video yet. So you're going to have to pop it back in there. But thank you. So it's an honour to have your laptops very first outing for this podcast. But basically, Holly, we would love to hear the one thing that you would like to share with all of those listening. So seeing as you talked about poetry, I'm going to share one thing through the medium of poetry. And I hope that is all right.

Yes, it is very okay. We've never had this before. My one thing that my daughter's 12 and going into sort of teenagehood, which I'm actually loving, but it's just to remember that your shame is not their shame. So it's really easy to pass, shame about things that we were made ashamed of or embarrassed about or made to hate about sexuality, our bodies, sex, all of that sort of stuff, which was quite strong in my school in my childhood and that they don't they don't know that yet so we could yeah so they haven't learned the shame so they haven't learned it yeah they haven't and they don't have it do they

they don't have it about stuff that we do that I don't think we should have and so this is called stealing their innocence and I wrote it after getting letters from the school basically talking about whether it's all right to use the word vulva in the classroom which I really feel is amazing that we're still having that conversation. So yeah, here is my poem. I told my child that I bleed every month, that this started at 12, maybe 14, showed her cups and tampons and pads. She stood by the sink, watched as I washed blood from my hands, wrung out the towel, pink circles, marbled the drain. She asked if it hurt me. I told her some days it feels like I've eaten my own weight in muscle. Some days I feel faint. Most days it's okay.

We spoke of wombs, building walls every month. She yucked at the blood, and she still did not stop. I told her, I have a vulva, I have a vulva. I repeated the word as much for myself as for her. She giggled, repeated a yuck. I said, that's what great-grandma means by front bum. She giggled again, and she still did not stop. I showed her a drawing of labia and clitoris, hood and urethra.

I told her in puberty the clit will get bigger, the hood might ease off. She giggled, said, mum, too much. information and she still did not stop. I told her her body was hers and she still did not stop. I told her that sometimes when I touch my own body in ways that I like, I feel tingly inside, like a bubbling bath or a really good poo. She laughed at that too, asked at what age that started to work. I said it depends and she still did not stop. I told her no one should touch her, that inside her pants was as private as minds. She sighed, yes, I know, I was told that at school. your own hands accepted I said yes she said yes and she still did not stop I told her that adults do not just have sex to make babies despite what so many will tell you and she still did not stop I told her that grown-ups play each other's bodies like harpsichord strings that sex can be rainbows of songs that under 16 is illegal non-consensual is illegal and wrong that feelings she might have a perfectly normal and she still did not stop she still did not stop she still did not stop she still did not stop she still did not

stop, playing dollies and train sets, kissing teddies each night, picking conkers from forests for more conquer fights. She still did not stop watching cartoons on TV, giggling at farts, begging for ice cream, holding my hands and looking both ways before crossing the road, dancing round chairs till the party tune stop, because that's not how a child's innocence is lost. Wow, tingling and stirring and emotional, I think, to think about. how we pass can so easily pass on and inspire shame where it is not. Yeah, I think so. And I write often, well, more often than not, about things that I want to be okay with.

So it's not like I find it funny when quite often people are like, oh, but I find it really hard to like talk about this stuff or I find it really hard. I think that, like the word vulva, I still find it hard to say, but it's such a big thing at the moment that it's like this is just a body part. Like we just need to say it. And then kids don't know that for hundreds of years it's been banned. Like they don't know that and it changes within like one generation. And I think it's been strange as a, well, as a parent or a carer, like having a kid and it taking me like such an effort to talk about things because you've just been told constantly not to talk about it.

So I remember the first time I thought, like, asked me what a tampon was or asked me what my period was. I was like, oh, and then I just told her, and nothing, like, nothing happened. I think that was the main thing. Like, there was, I think there's the idea that, I guess, like in the poem, that if we tell them things about sex or tell them things about genitals or masturbation or whatever, I think is a weird one that we're so weird about turning kids, even though that's, like, the safest, safest, safest way that they can, you know, know about their bodies before they

maybe do things with other people. But they don't, it doesn't stop them from, I guess, like, what I was worried about, it would make her then be obsessed, obsessed with sex or obsessed with periods. And then she'd be like an adult. It's such a rubbish. That's not. That's not what happens. Like she doesn't care. I was like, well, this is this. and, you know, your womb does this and then there's blood and there's, you know, explained like the menstruation cycle, which I don't really know about and sort of found out about in order to explain it to my daughter

and she's like, oh, and then doesn't care, like goes off and carries on watching cartoons. Like, it's not, it's made into such a big deal in my head, but for them, it's just, it just keeps them protected as well. Like adults, not awful adults, really prey on kids' ignorance. And the less they know, the better for people that want to take advantage. of it. So I think that's what sticks in my head all the time. This is actually protecting my daughter from harm, from predators, from like unpleasurable, unsafe sex when she's older. It's actually

protecting kids. It's not damaging them. It's doing the opposite. Yeah. And I think I was reading an article that you contributed to. And I think it was you talking about a family member that had shared experience and you spoke to loads of people that had shared experience of grandparents, not having ever talked about kind of postpartum bleeding or kind of periods and their husbands, their kind of life partners, didn't even, weren't even aware that these things were going on sometimes. And, you know, we've come from this generation of, you know, as we were saying, like the front bum and all other kinds of names. And if, and we're kind of standing in this gap where we're, we're almost choosing to take that hit of,

trying to address our own shame and like push through our own openness and even if it feels weird coming out of our mouths saying the proper kind of anatomical words for the parts of the body that we've always had and that we've come from. You know, we've got a choice whether we change this for. Yeah. And you don't have to act like you're fine with it. You know, I said, I sit in my door sometimes, oh, it does feel a bit strange talking about because I've been told not to. Do you know what I mean? It's not like you have to walk around. stuff as a clear-offs all the time. So I'm like, yeah, we are in a really weird time of parenting, I think. Also with the internet, like you can't not, like there's so much kids

can find online. Some really good stuff and some horrendous stuff. They're not going to not know stuff if you don't tell them. And it was never good not to know things. It's never good as a kid not to know stuff. Like it doesn't help them at all. It is tricky. I remember how in conversation with my son one night. I put him to bed and then he kind of paused and said, Mommy, how baby's made. And I thought, now, really? I probably need to go and like read some books or something. I remembered, yeah, I remembered someone. I remembered reading about how we pass on that shame, you know, how we can so easily ignite that by the way that we talk about it. So I just started talking about it really matter-of-factly. And then he goes, oh, I said,

what? He said it's boring. It's boring now, mummy. And I thought, wow, boredom is not the response I was expecting, I think, because like you, I'd thought, you know, I'm just going to get so many more and more and more questions. It's going to become this kind of big topic. But actually, I just explained it. And he, abhorred him. I find that we've like disgusted in my daughter. Like she's just, because she asked me about like, what sex is. That was my question that was a sudden, so what is sex? And I was like, this is what

every adult is trying. And I was like, well, for me, it's when people touch each other, but when the genitals are involved we call it sex. So there's loads of different types of sex. This is this, this is this. And there's much safer ways and, you know, but when it involves the genitals, then

it's sex, basically. And in my head, I was like, yeah, like, yeah. Like, yeah, that is what it is. And then And then she was like, why would you, why are adults so weird? God. And then she's like, have you done, have you like touched someone's penis? And I was like, yes, I have. And that was that my massive one was when she asked me if I'd done it. And I thought I'd read that the worst thing is that a lot of people see their moms as this like holy virginal angel, obviously from like, you know, the virgin mother sort of. Yeah. this is the perfect woman and that you don't want to tell your kid that you enjoy it. I remember at school with girls, it was worse to say that you enjoyed doing stuff than you just did it. Like that was worse that you enjoyed it, which is really messed up.

And I was like, yes, I have. She was like, why? And I was like, because I really wanted to. It felt really nice. And we both wanted, you know, all this sort of stuff. And she was just like, oh, and having your kid look at you with disgust is quite hard to take. And to not be like, yeah, yeah, you're right. It's totally gross.

Yeah, I shouldn't have done it. does be like, my name, because I fell out and I chose to do this. And I really enjoyed it. She was just like, adults are the weird, like the weirdest. And that was it. And that was like. And that was that. And that was that. Yeah. That was for me. That was the hardest. Have you? Have you done? Have you? No, no. No, no. No, no. No. No. No. No. No. Oh, not me. Just other people. Just other people. Or maybe just the once, but I did not enjoy it. And that's how you're here. And that was that. End of story. Shut shop forever. I could enjoy it.

It's like that is definitely worse. But it really, you know, those moments we're faced with our own, you know, we're faced with their questions, but what comes up first is our own response. Yeah. Our own reaction to our own kind of emotions

or shame or, you know, that's what we're suddenly met with, aren't we? That's what just rises up in us in that very moment where we pose these questions and it's so revealing. we almost have to, you know, look at that for ourselves and think, yeah, what do I, you know, where am I with this?

Totally. Do I have shame? Yeah, yeah. It makes me really question my own. And my mum was saying the same thing because I've started writing about this stuff. And then my mom's like, God, I sound like a terrible mom. I didn't tell you anything. I was like, no, it's not about you.

It's about the culture. Obviously, you didn't say things, but then your grand didn't say stuff. And so my mom and me keep having conversations, she's like, just if you're, you just, you just, you just can't, like, you just can't believe your own reaction, can't you? Because stuff that I still, still get embarrassed seeing people breastfeed, for example. Now, I've written so much about it. I've breastfed my daughter until she was nearly two. And I even feel weird saying that. And always, I'm like, but it was like once a week. And I always can be, oh, and I was going on a long flight. Two seconds. This week. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. She was eating up. But, and I still find it,

I still find it weird to see someone breastfeeding. And I'm, like the biggest advocate of like helping people to feed their kid however they want and having way more support. So just knowing that my body's reaction, that isn't, that that shouldn't like inspire your thoughts about stuff just because you find something awkward. It's not necessarily because it's wrong or it's just because it's not normalized for you. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. And being honest with ourselves about that, as you say, like just noticing that embarrassing. that you feel, even though on one level you know you're fine with it. But it's, it enables us to think about where has that come from? Where is, you know, what message has kind of been embedded

in us, you know, culturally or kind of generationally. And it just invites us to think about that. Because even as I say vulva, vulva, you know, there's something in me that's like, no, don't say that. And I know, you know, and it's where, where's that come from? Because either we let that stop us saying these things altogether or we come out with it really awkwardly and it gets tangled up and then you know our kids grow up thinking that sex is I don't know literally a burden a bee and you know and it's all very confusing or we just notice that in ourselves even if it's conflicting with where we know we're at. We know that we want to be talking about these things. We know it's important to be talking about these things but sometimes we need to acknowledge

and admit that there is like a little conflict inside of us. Yeah, and that's all right, and not to blame ourselves. It's like hundreds of years of history. I remember someone online saying, oh, I just find it really difficult to say vulva and clitoris especially, as if you're teaching your child that they have this, like, devil's body body. Like, the idea of saying to a kid that they have a clitoris seems loads of people are so not okay with it. But it is a body part, and it's a really important body part for most women, most people,

with glitterses and it's just like yes it's it's fascinating but i don't like it from people are very i get quite a lot of different reactions online and people blaming themselves oh this is so stupid why can't i just say it's like it's like it's not stupid this is very very like you said so deeply embedded and then other people like oh for god's sake you're an adult of course you should be able to say it's like okay well that's not going to help is it shaming someone for being ashamed of something that we've been made to be ashamed of it's just shut up yeah it's really yes And it's annoying because this is a very, this isn't the stuff that we should be concentrating on. And this shouldn't be such a problem.

Well, hopefully we, you know, these conversations and your poetry and, you know, all the different kind of research and encouragement around kind of naming and the benefits of naming body parts and just sharing the facts without shame and addressing our own shame, you know, hopefully we are that generation of adults who are taking that and, you know, kind of moving through that for the next generation and beyond and beyond. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. And I absolutely encourage people to go and get a copy of Slug and other things I've

been told to hate. I just love the titles. I love the titles of your book alone. But, yeah, and go and dive into Holly's poetry. And if you've got a minute, go on to YouTube and you're, I say a minute, you won't be able to stop. You'll just be doing the one after another after another. I just listened to one about strawberry yogurt. Not one about strawberry yogurt.

I love it. Oh, yeah. So go and find Holly's poetry and enjoy it and let it stir you and make you think. And she's on Instagram as Holly poetry. So to finish off, Holly, I have got some quick five questions for you. Are you ready? What's a motherhood high for you? Hi, sharing food with my daughter, like eating with her. We both love eating and love most food. And it's just great. Mainly eating nachos with her is probably my mother.

Or nachos. Do you have the toppings on? Do you have the cheese and there? Yeah, like once we have nachos, basically, just make a message off of them with loads of alacado. That's such a good idea. And you have that for a meal or a snack? Oh yeah, it's like looks really unhealthy but it's actually got loads of like lots of chopped up stuff on the top and then we just sit with it on our laps and eat it. Oh my gosh, my kids would love that.

I'm inspired. I'm getting a bit stuck in a rut with the old meal planning so that's going on there. Thank you. And what's her motherhood low for you? Currently, definitely getting letters from the school telling you to tell your kids to watch out for predatory men that are like driving around trying to get the girls into their car just things starting again that I remember starting at that age and I don't want them to start again for her and they are that's really really awful I'm not enjoying that I get to in touch her like vulnerability of being a

woman that's rubbish being alive yeah oh and what's something contrary to that what's something that makes you feel really good I'm doing anything that I enjoy that doesn't involve my looks jumping into a swimming pool, going on the wrong, skates, masturbating. All of those things. Touching, getting a massage from my boyfriend. That's a highlight. Oh, brilliant. Right, and finally, how do you describe motherhood in three words?

I wrote them down because I changed it about 500 times because that's a very difficult question. So the first one was turbulent, I wrote. second one was tiring or boring and then I scribbled out boring because I felt guilty about it but sometimes it is boring but I think tiring a description sometimes it is boring yeah of course and incredible was the last one lovely yeah turbulent tiring incredible

well thank you so much for joining me on your brand new sparkly laptop and it's been an absolute pleasure to hear your words what a privilege it is to have your words out there for us. Well, I feel the same about meeting you and being on here, so thanks a lot. Oh, thank you. Thank you for listening to today's episode of The Therapy Edit. If you enjoyed it, please do share, subscribe or review because it makes a massive difference to how many people it can reach.

You can find more from me on Instagram at Anna Martha. You might like to check out my three books, Mind Oath and Mother, know your worth and my new book, The Little Book of Calm for New Mums, grounding words for the highs, the lows and the moments in between. It's a little book you don't need to read it from front to back. You just pick whatever emotion resonates to find a mantra, a tip and some supportive words to bring comfort and clarity. You can also find all my resources, guides and videos, all with the sole focus of supporting your emotional and mental well-being as a mum. They are all £12 and you can find them on anamatha.com.

I look forward to speaking with you soon.