The Therapy Edit - One Thing with Joeli Brearley on why the Motherhood Penalty is not your fault

Episode Date: September 8, 2023

In this guest episode of The Therapy Edit, Anna is thrilled to chat to campaigner, author and founder of Pregnant Then Screwed, Joeli Brearley about her One Thing; that the motherhood penalty is NOT YOUR FAULTJoeli founded Pregnant Then Screwed in 2015 after her own experience of pregnancy discrimination. She writes for the Telegraph, is the winner of the Northern Power Women Agent for Change award, is an Amnesty International Human Rights Defender and a member of the United Nations Working Group: Women’s Human Rights in the Changing World of Work. In January 2021 she took the Government to court for indirect sex discrimination due to the way self employed mothers were being financially penalised by the income support scheme. Her debut book: ”Pregnant Then Screwed: The Truth about the Motherhood Penalty, and how to fix it’’ was published on the 4th March 2021. In 2022 'The Motherhood Penalty: How to stop motherhood being the kiss of death for your career' was published. You can visit the Pregnant Then Screwed website here Follow Pregnant Then Screwed on Instagram here

Hello and welcome to The Therapy Edit with me, psychotherapist, mum of three and author Anna Martha. Every Friday, I invite one guest to tell me the one thing they would most like to share with mums everywhere. So join with me as we hear this dose of wisdom. I hope you enjoy it. Hi, everyone. Welcome to today's guest episode of The Therapy Edit. Now, my guest today, I have been just, I've wanted to get her on for ages because I've been following her journey on social media and the absolute, like, she is changing and challenging the tectonic plates of mothers and how we navigate kind of life and the juggle and work and pregnancy and motherhood. So if you haven't worked out already, I have Jolie Brearley here. So where do I start on Jolie? She founded Pregnant Then Screwed in 2015. And that was kind of, that came out of her experiencing pregnancy discrimination. Now, pregnant then screwed is the leading charity, working to end the motherhood penalty, just striving to benefit all of us

from the generations to come. And they are doing it. They campaign for the issues impacting pregnant women and working moms, offering meaningful advice whilst campaigning for change. So she literally campaigns tirelessly. Her social media is just, I mean, just if you don't follow already do because it's amazing to see people and her team that are just fighting for change and they are, they're getting change, they're making change and it's going to benefit us all and our children and, yeah, for years to come. So there are 54,000 women who are forced out of their jobs each year because they dare to procreate and the three quarters of mothers who face workplace discrimination. And that will be many of you.

listening. Jolie is also the author of Pregnant, Then Screwed, the truth about the motherhood penalty and how to fix it. I mean, I could carry on. I could list all the amazing things that you've been doing, Jolie, because I'm just so grateful every time I see anything pop up of yours, just knowing that this is going on. And I've signed many a petition and shared many a post to encourage other people to get on board. So thank you so much for joining me. How are you today. Oh, thank you, Anna. That was a lovely introduction. I am, I'm okay. I'm going to give myself a five and three quarters out of ten, I think. I'd probably be a six and a half, but my partner shrunk my favourite cardigan in the watch this morning. So how did he break that to you? He thought

it was, he thought it was funny. Oh. Didn't read the room. It didn't go down very well, but he will be buying me a brand new cardigan. I've already sent him a list of cardigans that I quite like to replace the shrunken. Anyway, I've been so excited to have you on because you are someone that all of us, you know, have something to thank you for. Because when, you know, there are so many different frustrations. I think all of us have sat and chatted with friends if we don't have stories ourselves of discrimination in the workplace and just feeling misunderstood and overlooked. and to know that you and your team are just doing something about it and inviting us to

and giving us really tangible ways so that we can, you know, we can fight for equality for mums and pregnant women to get what they need and deserve as, as colleagues and employees, you know, so thank you. Oh, again, that is lovely. I mean, when it happened to me, I got pushed out of my job when I told my employer that I was pregnant and it just felt so completely lonely and isolating and so the first thing that we did was start to post stories of other women's experiences and although it can be quite traumatic reading we know that for a lot of women it really helps them to know they're not the only one and that this

is happening across the board and gives them the strength to fight it because then you're not just fighting for your own rights you're fighting for other women as well to make sure it does happen to anybody else. Yeah. And you are literally fighting. I mean, you're going into, you're going and debating and going into government and you are, you know, you're there on the front line, fighting, literally fighting and, yeah, and changing things.

So thank you. So I would love to hear the one thing that you have then, Jolie. Like, what's the one thing that you want to share with all those moms listening today, whether they're pushing buggies around the park or they're, you know, just getting stuff done at home or having a few moments peace, what's the one thing that you'd love to share with them? When women get, from the point that a woman gets pregnant or when she has a baby, they will more often than not experience some form of discrimination, whether that's as extreme as my scenario where I got pushed out of my job, or whether it's bullying or harassments or

demotions or being sidelined or being made redundant. There are over 70,000. of women experience some form of discrimination. And what I hear the most is women believing that it's their fault, that they have created this problem because they dared to procreate and therefore they feel that they are a burden to their employer. So I suppose what I want to really convey to mothers is it's not your fault. It's not your fault. We've been having babies for, what, millions of years? Like, this is not a new thing. And so, and employers really should have adapted and should understand that if they have female employers, they may at some point have a baby. And this, this bias sort of infiltrates all employees, whether they be

male or female. And then the impact on you can be absolutely enormous. I've spoken to women who've lost their homes. I've spoken to women whose mental health will never recover. But you really need to understand that none of this is your fault and that it's the system that needs to change, not you. And I think there'll be, there's, yeah, such a sigh of relief just hearing that. And it can take a while to sink in, can't it? And I think, especially if you're in a situation where you're having to really advocate for yourself

and the other party are trying to make out that it is your fault in some way or another, and that is the attitude that's coming towards you. Yeah, and that's what they will do because, of course, they want to push the problem back onto you. And it's also often really hard to prove when you've experienced some form of discrimination because it's often not avert. It's very subtle. It's a drip feed process of bullying and harassment.

That's the most common. and it's done behind closed doors with the curtains drawn and emails vanish and papers are shredded and it's said one-to-one in meetings, it's not documented. And so you feel like you're going mad. It's gaslighting in its finest form. And that will inevitably send you to a place where it's really hard to advocate for yourself.

So if anybody who's listening is experiencing anything similar, then please call us. We have a free advice sign and we will support you through that. But just know that you're not going mad that this actually happens more often than many of us realize. So if someone is listening, you've got a helpline and you've got people there just manning it and giving advice. And so if I was calling you and I was saying, I feel like I'm nervous to talk about my pregnancy. I feel like I'm really scared about sharing that news with my employers. I've waited as long as I can.

And now I've got to tell them what support is there for me. What can I do? If you tell your employer that you're pregnant and the response is negative and you start to see a shift in the way your employer behaves towards you, then the first thing you need to do is give us a call. So we've got an advice line. It's 0161-2-2-9-879. It's the only phone number I know of by having it. I've forgotten all of them apart from my childhood one. Yeah. It's not even live anymore. No. And we can talk you through it. You also need to contact ACAS. That's really important because you have a certain time period in which you can actually legally do anything about it. So just contact ACAS to register that something's happening. So is that ACAS? Yeah.

Yeah, ACAS. Okay. You have three months to raise a tribunal claim from the point that discrimination occurs. So by contacting ACAS, that helps to ensure you're not going to go over that time limit in case things get really nasty. And then we would really highly recommend that you advocate for yourself, that you make it very clear to your employer that you know your legal rights and you challenge them on their behaviour. because what we find is that once you make it clear that you're going to stand up for yourself, actually employers tend to back off. They don't always, but in the majority of cases, they do.

But that can be really difficult and understandably, really terrifying to say to your employer, look, mate, I know what my legal rights are, stop dicking about. But we will be there to support you through it. And also in larger companies, you may be able to find other. mothers who've experienced something similar who can mentor you and support you through that process as well. So reach out to other women within your organisation to ensure that you get the support that you need. So call your helpline and go on to ACAS, ACAS and start logging that. And this is such helpful information because I think sometimes, you know, it's the kind of things that are

disclosed in friendships, isn't it? You know, I've just told my boss this and this is how they've responded and we can tend to rant to our friends but actually to has something to say to a mate if that's if they're sharing anything of this sort with you that there are some steps you can take to learn how to kind of navigate this and advocate for yourself and get what you legally what you legally deserve and can you tell us about some of the changes that you've seen over the recent years of campaigning? What has been that fuel for you that you've kind of held on to? The thing that, as well as pregnancy and maternity discrimination

because of my own experience and supporting women through that, that's been a really cathartic process for me. It helped me recover from my own pain of what happened. And the messages we get are just wonderful. they keep you going, you know, and things are really tough, knowing that we really genuinely are supporting women on the ground. The issue that really, I think, will be lifelong work for me, I would say is childcare.

And the reason why I care about it so much is because it's indicative of how, as a society, we really undervalue care and the care work that women do. We know that the majority of people that work in childcare are women. and many of them are black and brown women. And they do such a difficult job. I mean, I could not do what they do. They are the people who prop up our society and our economy. They do what is the most valuable job in the world,

caring for and educating most vulnerable youngest people in society. And yet they are paid so appalled. appallingly badly that one in nine news food banks. And that to me is an absolute disgrace. And until we fix the problems that exist within our care sector, not just childcare within other care sectors, then I think we will continue to undervalue work that is done by women. And so that's the reason why I'm so obsessed about it, as well as the fact that parents are paying extortionate's amounts of money and it's pushing them out of their jobs and pushing them into poverty. The central focus to me is this undervaluing of care that I find so deeply upsetting.

And we've seen a shift since we've been campaigning on childcare in the way that childcare is talked about. And we've obviously seen a big investment from the government recently, although there are many problems with that investment. We still saw an additional four billion put into the childcare sector, which is a step in the right direction. but there is so much more to do. Yeah. And as you're talking, I think what you'll be doing is, as with many of the posts that you write and the articles you write,

is stirring up rage. But not that kind of rage that just has you ranting and raving, that kind of rage where you're also saying, this is not okay, know how not okay this is, but here is what we're doing. Here is how you can get involved. Here is how you can help us fight. Here is something you can sign that actually.

adds up to make a difference and start chipping away at this really systemic issue. So it's this rage, but it's this passion-fuelled rage for justice. And I think anger is such a beautiful emotion. Can be. It can be. It's so, you know, we talk about anger as if it's a bad thing, but actually it's a trigger for change. It's, it's something, if you feel angry about something, you know something's wrong and it's the fuel that you need in order to make the changes that will make things much better. It's such a beautiful emotion if you can harness it effectively and it's you know, I spend a lot of my life angry. Very, very angry. And invoking an inspiring anger and other people, but the anger that is changing things, you know, it is chipping away and it is

changing. So if people have been listening and they too feel that flicker, or maybe it's already an absolute roaring fire of rage and injustice that they've been feeling. Yeah, just those flickering embers perhaps of listening to you and thinking, yeah, this isn't okay. She's so right. What can, what can we do, Jolie, to get on board and help you and your team and be the, you know, the crowd behind you that are cheering you on and actually. doing along with you what what can we do well there's there's lots of things that you could do and i mean in its most basic form following us on social media so you can see we often ask people to take specific actions whether that's writing to an MP writing to your local counselor

joining a march and signing a petition there's all sorts of different actions we're constantly asking people to do and we channel that through social media and through our newsletter you can become a member. We have a membership scheme, which is £3 a month. And that, of course, keeps us going financially because, you know, it costs money to do this work. And as part of the membership, you are part of the group that feed into our strategy and what we're going to do in the future to make sure there is change and momentum. And we do, we will be doing again, and hopefully,

another big protest. And the protest that we did last year, March of the Mummies, was so impactful. It made such a difference. We had almost a thousand pieces of press and media coverage off the back of it. We know for a fact that that March helped to trigger that investment, that four billion investment that we saw in childcare. And we know that because I was invited to a meeting directly after that money was announced by the Minister for Education, who asked me if I was happy and how our community felt would feel about that investment.

So there is a direct link between us, getting out the streets, demonstrating our anger, coming together as a community and saying this is not okay and change happening. So please, please just join us, be part of that force.

Yeah, I think you'll have a few, I think you'll have a few new members now after sharing this with us. So thank you. And also, people can grab a copy of your book, Pregnant, then Screwed. And what I love about your book is that, you know, the title itself is pregnant then screwed. But actually, what it's all about is the truth about the motherhood penalty. So stirring up that righteous anger for equality and justice.

And then it's all about how to fix it as well. So it's that kind of stirring up and then those practical ways that we can join together as mothers and do something about this. And that is what you are doing. So thank you so much for, yeah, for everything, for everything that you do and all that rage that you inspire in us that is that beautiful kind of, yeah, tectonic plate shifting rage. And so thank you.

I'm loving these tectonic plates. I know. I don't know what's in my head today. I must have like been watching some science show with the kids. But it is, you know, it's these plates that I just think we've just lived. on for years and there it takes a lot to move them and sometimes those the shifts can feel so small but everything is starting to to move along with them and it it's disturbing but you're doing the best kind of disturbing yeah I quite like the metaphor of a lazy Susan though along with

you've got the tectonics a difficult shift and then the lazy Susan just go around in the You can get your hoistin sauce in seconds from Iran over the other side. I love it. Well, I have got some quick-fire questions to ask you to finish off. Jolie, what is a motherhood high for you? Oh, when my son asked my partner if he pays me for making dinner every evening. And then when he said he didn't, he suggested that he should start paying me because that was work. Yes. And not in cardigans because that that's that's his fault. Yeah.

So it's not, yeah. In cold hard cash. I love that. I love that. And they asked him how much my dinner was worth and he suggested about 80 pens. So highs and lows. Oh, okay. Yeah.

That, yeah, that compliment and then just, yeah. Yeah. And in motherhood, low, what's a, what's a challenge for you? Oh, I mean, there's so many. The motherhood law would have to be after my second child was born and he woke every 45 minutes of his life until he was 14 months old. And I was so desperate and so exhausted that I walked into A&E with both of my children in Manchester and said, I'm not leaving until you fix this baby because he's clearly broken.

and they they after four hours of sitting there they call me in and then they threw me out with nothing and there's nothing and I never felt I mean I was hallucinating yeah I've been there yeah he had silent reflux that went undiagnosed yeah yeah excruciating the same with jack and and just you know with hindsight looking back and knowing that that that knowing that that could have gone horribly wrong and they left me with nothing and just threw me back out on the streets. That makes me really upset and angry and is the reason why I'll never have another baby? But it's also, it's so similarly to what you're talking about in, you know, the challenges you face when you became pregnant and you and you lost your job,

is that is that fighting for those women that are at the end of themselves and they feel just, they are hugely overlooked and misunderstood and you're giving people somewhere to go where their stories will be validated and they'll be handheld and you'll be supporting them and advocating for them. And I think there's so many, I know when I, and I know you talk about this a lot, Anna, and the stuff that you've talked, particularly about intrusive thoughts, validates women's very isolating experiences, doesn't it? You know, I went through a period of of having intrusive thoughts all the time. You know, I want to drive into a wall with the kids in the car,

thinking about throwing my baby out the window, you know, I remember pushing him along with the pram and imagining somebody was going to just come over and stab him repeatedly in the pram. And at the time, again, you think you're going mad until people like you talk about it. And this is perfectly normal. Yeah, that's your mind playing with risk and responsibility

and power and vulnerability. and when we're tired and exhausted and sleep deprived or hormonal and our lives have massively changed, it's so harder to rationalise those thoughts. We're going to question ourselves. So just knowing that we're not alone, you're not alone in the pregnancy discrimination. You're not, there's nothing wrong with you. It's not your fault, as you say, and you're not alone in the intrusive thoughts. There's nothing wrong with you.

It's not your fault. There is help out there and you are providing that. You're providing that feeling of being known. and validated. So thank you so much, Jolie, for joining me. I can chat to you forever, but I encourage everyone to go over to Pregnant and Screw to follow along to start staring the rage and moving those tectonic plates and spinning those lazy Susan's. Thank you so much for joining me.

Thank you so much for listening. Please do take a moment to subscribe, rate and review as it really helps get these words out to benefit more, struggling parents like us and head to annamartha.com to find my resources on everything from health anxiety to people pleasing starting at only 20 pounds and finally don't forget to pre-order my new book raising a happier mother how to find balance feel good and see your children flourish as a result I can't wait for you to have that take care and we'll chat soon