The Therapy Edit - One Thing With Kate Moyle on what does normal mean when it comes to sex?

Episode Date: July 26, 2024

In this final guest episode of The Therapy Edit before Anna takes a well deserved break, she chats to Kate Moyle, Psychosexual and Relationship Therapist, about her One Thing: what does normal mean when it comes to sex?Kate's book The Science Of Sex is available to buy here.  You can also enjoy Kate's podcast The Sexual Wellness Sessions - And of course you can follow her on Instagram.Photo © copyright Matt Writtle

Hello and welcome to The Therapy Edit with me, psychotherapist's mum of three and author Anna Martha. Every Friday, I invite one guest to tell me the one thing they would most like to share with mums everywhere. So join with me as we hear this dose of wisdom. I hope you enjoy it. Hello, everyone. Welcome to today's guest episode of The Therapy Edit. I have with me, Kate Moyle. Now, Kate is a sexual and relationship psychotherapist. She is the author of the amazingly informative, thorough, warm, just brilliantly helpful, the science of sex

book. She's also the host of the sexual wellness sessions and she's actually got series five of that podcast coming out really soon. So look out for that. And she is the UK sex expert for Laylo. Have I said that correctly? Lilo? People say it all sorts of different ways. Lilo, Laylo. But the great thing is that I actually worked with Kate

years ago. I think it was 10 years ago, wasn't it? Kate, probably around. It was definitely pre-kids for me. And we worked in the same practice, so we worked alongside each other. Yeah, it must have been about 10 years ago, I think. It feels like another lifetime ago, doesn't it? And I think that must have been just after weed or drawing training or something because we had to have different placements, didn't we,

and kind of rack up those hours of being a therapist. And so we worked together then. Yeah, we did. And you've been, you've been so busy. I literally see your name popping up everywhere. You've been on diary of a CEO. You've got your brilliant books. So I see you in different press things.

You're in magazines. You're in everywhere. And all just kind of getting the word out there around sex. Because we've got always got so many questions and they're often really unspoken. So what would you say your main passion is? You can hear the cat in the background. We're just going to choose to ignore him. But yeah.

The cat's here to talk about sex. That's fine. The cat can join. I think for me, one of the biggest things, my therapy practice is obviously my priority is why I do, what I do, why I love having these conversations. And as you know, as a therapist, you're invited into people's worlds in a way which is so intimate and particularly when we're talking about sex. And that, that for me is just such a great privilege. And I love my job and I love my work and every day is different. But I suppose the segue or the thing that's happened as a result of that is taking the conversations about sex out of the therapy room and putting them into the mainstream.

And a large part of that I kind of talk about the irony of that is that I'm trying to almost do myself out of a job because I believe that a lot less people would be in psychosexual therapy if we were having the conversations in a more normalising, kind of less stigmatized, more, just more everyday way, then a lot of people wouldn't feel the way they feel and wouldn't be experiencing such high levels of dissatisfaction with their sex lives and therefore wouldn't need to come to therapy in the first place.

So it's an ironic way of kind of trying to get people into therapy less by taking the conversations from outside the, inside the therapy room to outside of it. So I think that's brilliant. I mean, how many people are trying to do themselves out of a job? But you're so right in educating people through your book. And your book is detailed. You know, it's got, it's really educational. And the things that we maybe don't even know are normal.

or maybe aren't so normal and we deserve to seek support about our own bodies and about a part of our lives and our relationships as we understand these things then these topics are less taboo and perhaps it starts kind of breaking down some of the shame that we have around sex so yeah educating people and having some of those conversations that you know are on in everyone there's so many people's heads. Yeah, and I think the whole thing about the book is it's what we call a biopsychosocial education, so understanding the physicality, the psychological, emotional parts and the social parts of sex. And for so long, you know, education and conversations have just been that sex is, this bit goes there, you do that with that, this is what to do, this is what

not to do. And we know that sex is a highly emotive, highly subjective, experience for people that is way more than which body parts you put where and the practicalities of what you're doing. And the book is rooted in statistics, in research, in science. It has everything from explaining the anatomy of the body to how our brain works, to hormones, to how we think and feel about sex. And I think it intends to answer a lot of the questions that we'll have. And you know, one of the big things I talk about is education across the lifetime. So as adults, even if we feel like we aren't educated to the level we want to be, we can go out and get that at any point. Yeah. Yeah. And I think as we challenge it and start breaking down some of the

shame, the silence for ourselves and start having more of these conversations and removing that taboo, then we're more likely to have healthier, more productive, less kind of tinge with shame and awkwardness and like cringing conversations with our kids as well, aren't we? Because we can pass that shame on. Because if we're kind of evidently, oh, this is really hard to talk about, let's just talk about it in terms of birds and bees and stalks and, you know, then actually we're saying this is something to be, you know, this is something to talk about in weird terms. This is something to be embarrassed about. So we're doing it for the generations to come as well as we as we do this work and as we learn. Totally. Because.

so many of us are getting the education, particularly of us at home, but from the generation before. And every generation, you know, we know that the internet and smartphones, social media, all of those things are changing the landscape so quickly. And we feel so ill-equipped, I think, as parents to know how to have those conversations. You know, I'm a parent and I still kind of worry about getting the answers right or the questions right or my reactions. And I do this for a job and that's that's a normal kind of realistic worry because we want to do best by our kids we want to equip them to know how to navigate these parts of our lives but without the fear of okay well the stakes feel high if I get this wrong in both directions and avoidance as we

know is such a natural strategy for feeling anxiety that we'd rather just to kind of ignore it all together but I think equipping parents is a big part of it and I've had a a lot of parents get in touch who said they brought the book to educate themselves so that they feel better set up to have those conversations when they kind of come about. Yeah, it's big stuff. And I think, you know, your book, The Warm Education, the kind of like the total lack of judgment, just, yeah, talking about some of the nuances around sex is an amazing way to equip ourselves, both because we deserve that.

We deserve to strip some of that shame away. We deserve to have some of those questions answered and to remove some of that to be and to know what feels normal and what doesn't and what we can do about it. But yeah, the natural side effect is that we can then be more equipped to talk with our kids. So with all of the conversations you've had with clients over the years, the book that you've written, the podcast, the conversations that you've had on there. What is the one thing that you would love to share with everyone? everyone's day. So the one thing that I chose for this was based on the fact that I think that

this is the question which is underneath every single other question about sex or kind of underpins every other question, which is, am I normal? And when it comes to sex, the only thing that's normal is difference and how different we all are. But we are also so obsessed with this standard or idea of normal and comparing ourselves against that and that's one of the biggest things that I think trips people up when it comes to their sex lives

because there isn't a magic formula there isn't a way that we can kind of be good at sex that can then be universally applied to every partner that we have and this idea of normal means that so many of us pigeonhole ourselves into being a way that we think we should, be rather than the way that we want to be, but also the flip side, which is, okay, if I don't

feel like I fit this idea of normal or these versions of normal, and again, normal in inverted commas, then I feel like there must be something wrong with me or I must be the problem. And actually, when we flip that, I think that we need to think, what is it about our culture and our society or our conversations or our lack of conversations? that makes talking about sex so difficult for the majority of people because we don't experience it in the same way with many other things in life. Oh, I think there is such comfort isn't there when we know what's normal and we know that we take that box and it kind of says, right, I don't need to do anything or worry about

anything or change anything or challenge anything. And I think, yeah, knowing that difference is. the thing that is normal means that our sex lives are another part of our relationship that need conversation and need work sometimes or need nurturing or need a bit of time. And I think, yeah, normal says that we can put it in a box on the shelf and just kind of not worry about it, whereas just like communication and just like, you know, hobbies and the thing likes and dislikes and how we have to fit around each other. and work with each other in relationships,

and we know that that takes time and effort, you're saying, you know, sex is, it deserves that conversation and that, yeah. It deserves the same treatment, yeah. And, you know, the basic examples, but I often use kind of food analogies, and I'm talking about sex. Another food analogy.

If someone was in your house and you said, do you want a cup of coffee? And they were like, oh, yeah, it'd be great, thanks. You wouldn't just plonk it down in front of them, without saying, how do you like it? You would want to ask them a question or, you know, even if it's, is it coffee or tea? How do you like it? Would you like milk?

Would you like sugar? And then within that, there's further variations. Some people like to do things like put the milk in before the tea bag or some people like it extra hot. Some people like it, you know, frothy. Some people like four sugars. Some people like none. Some people prefer a sweetener. I mean, there's so many options.

Just in that as one brief example. And we have no problem. accepting difference in almost every other part of our lives, apart from sex where we're all expected to be the same. And actually, I just don't think it makes any sense. But it's because we're so restricted. And we have historically been so restricted and we have this kind of ambivalence around sex where we really want to talk about it, but also we don't, but we only talk about the right type of sex or the sex that looks right or the one we see in the movies and then I don't look like that so what's going on here and there's all these different kind of contradictions we're allowed

to have people kind of writhing around basically naked and perfume adverts but we're not allowed to have comprehensive kind of inclusive sex education conversations and these two things don't really match up and then you know people feel embarrassed for buying condoms but buying condoms is a way of taking care of your health and having safe sex, but we feel embarrassed to buy them. I mean, there's all these kind of weird contradictions. So many contradictions, and I absolutely love the coffee analogy. I think that's so great at illustrating how used to difference we are

and how accepting a difference we are. And we make space for it and we invite it and we, yeah, think about how we can work around. it you know have I got that herbal tea they like no but I don't have that but would you like to try this and I think I think one of the one of the questions that when it comes to difference that I'd love to hear your thoughts on that so many parents when I speak to them in the therapy room obviously I don't work with couples but is often around and a question that you know my husband and I talk about is how often and this is where the word normal isn't helpful how often is it normal

for parents to have sex how often and then you get the should should we'd be having sex. And you might hear that so and so who's got so many kids are having sex this often and then you're thinking, oh gosh. And it's again, this pursuit of what is normal. And if we totally sidestep that whole conversation, we can end up just not having it at all. And if we think about what the worry is underneath that question, the worry is, are we doing okay? How are we doing in comparison to everyone else? And, And the reality is, people could be having sex every week, but if the sex isn't satisfying and enjoyable and it's doing nothing for them, why is that a good, reflective measure of

a relationship or of a couple's physical intimacy? And, you know, again, I think we've become so obsessed with objectively measuring sex, which is, okay, and that's the amount of sex or regularity of sex. It's the only one of the only ways we can do that. But wouldn't it be much better to say, are you enjoying the sex that you're having? And what we see is that regularity becomes this, this kind of big focus when we're talking about our sex lives, because it's often about the negotiations between two people, whereas actually we know that couples who prioritize and intentionally put effort into this part of their lives are the couples who are reporting the best satisfaction when it comes to sex. And that often people have sex when they are particularly

are parents of young kids, as and when the moment is right. So we're both in bed and we managed to get to bed before 11.30, might as well tonight. It doesn't feel, you know, it's not this kind of really romanticized view of sex that I think we've held on to for so long. And we have to sometimes recognize that and that sex can be different things at different times and different moments. And that's okay. It's meant to be this really variable part of our lives.

It's not meant to always be the same and happening in the same way at exactly the same moment and to give us the same thing every time. Sometimes we just think an orgasm before bed would help us to sleep better and that's a really nice thing. And sometimes we want to feel really connected and close to our partners. And one of the things that we know particularly about parents is that the Gottman's who did longitudinal research on couples found that relationship dissatisfaction was highest. for the, I think it was something like 67 or either 73% of the couple surveyed in the kind of first five years of their children's lives because there's so much stuff which eclipses our coupleness at that point. And we have to work really hard in a way that we didn't before to hold on to some of that. Absolutely. It takes a lot of work and conversations to be had, I guess,

because we can read things into the gaps, can't we? And we can so often make assumptions as to how the other person is thinking and feeling. And I think what you said and what I've heard you speak about before, and I think probably even conversations that you and I have had is about, you know, the importance of connection and not just seeing sex as this kind of black and white binary penetrative act is that actually there is so much more that can be around it

that can lead to that, that is around connection and touch and having needs met and feeling kind of emotionally kind of intimate as well and how, you know, it's so easy just to look at an act and you find out your friends are doing it this many times a week and goodness me, what does that mean about us? When actually when you focus on connection, you focus on feeling heard and seen by that other person and giving each other, you know, not, yeah,

so it's not just a bang, one out, like out of the blues the only time we're like physically intimate in the week. it's actually there is so much more that can feel sexual or can feel physical connecting and emotional outside of that as well that in time can maybe lead to to sex or more sex or yeah so often we kind of sit and we wait for the changes to happen they're not going to happen we have to make them happen we have to go and just take tiny steps you know a conversation with your partner sharing an article listening to a podcast sharing podcast Listening to other people have these conversations is a big, you know, a big thing for me,

which is the complete reason that I started the podcast. But starting it, because so many people come to me and they say, I just thought that this was going to work itself out. And these things don't, because we all feel a bit awkward and uncomfortable. And we just have to sometimes be a bit brave and say, okay, what can we do differently here? And it's not jumping into trying something wild and sexually kind of adventurous that we would never have dreamt of is the little things. It's the, okay, how do we spend,

you know, two minutes a day, just being physically intimate, which isn't sexual but is a way of us touching each other. How do we say we're going to sit down and have a glass of wine and talk about this or choose a sex toy together or give each other a massage or run you a bath or whatever it is?

There are so many tiny, tiny things that we can do that can have an impact. Brilliant. Thank you. Thank you for bringing those conversations and that wisdom out the therapy room for us. So we can take those tentative steps of, yeah, in a really comfortable way, learning, learning more and having more of those conversations, both behind closed doors and with friends as well. And yeah, it's a big topic. And you have the most amazing, warm, accessible way of talking about it.

so grateful for you. And I encourage everyone to grab a copy of the Science of Sex, Kate's brilliant book and also to tune in to the Sexual Wellness Sessions podcast and Lookout Series 5. But before you go, Kate, I'd love to hear what is one thing beyond your work, beyond sex, that makes you feel good. One thing that makes me feel good. Do you know what? I just love nothing more than sitting with a friend.

having a glass of wine talking about nothing. It brings me real joy. Nothing and everything. Yeah. I love that. It's so therapeutic, isn't it? It really is. Again, another one of those things that we have to be intentional about sometimes because those things just won't happen of their own accord anymore, do they? When you've got kids and you're juggling. We have to really be intentional about that too. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you for all that you put out into the world, Kate, in your, like, that is passion, passionate and compassionate, and yeah, we're grateful for you. I am so excited to announce that my brand new book, The Uncomfortable Truth, Change Your Life by Taming Ten of

Your Mind's Greatest Fears, is available for pre-order now and is out on the 8th of August. And in this book, we tackle some of life's big, unavoidable, uncomfortable truths such as some people don't like me. I am going to fail. Life is a little. there, bad things will happen. And in this book, we tackle these big, uncomfortable trees that rob us of so much headspace and energy as we try and control and avoid them. And as we move into a place of radical acceptance of these truths, you will find yourself living more freely and intentionally with more presence and confidence than ever before. So come on this journey with me and pre-order now at Ward Stones and Amazon. We can celebrate together.

You know what I'm going to be.