The Therapy Edit - One Thing with Kate Silverton on why there's no such thing as naughty

Episode Date: October 21, 2022

In this guest episode of The Therapy Edit, Anna chats to former BBC newsreader Kate Silverton. Now training to become a children's counsellor, Kate's one thing is that there is no such thing as naughty when it comes to your children.A mum of two, with a BSc in Psychology from the University of Durham Kate's experience as a mother has encouraged her to return to her academic roots in child psychology and psychotherapy.You can find out more about Kate at www.katesilverton.com and you can buy her book, There's No Such Thing As Naughty here https://www.waterstones.com/book/theres-no-such-thing-as-naughty/kate-silverton/9780349428529You can also follow Kate on Instagram at @katesilverton

Hello and welcome to The Therapy Edit with me, psychotherapist, mum of three and author Anna Martha. Every Friday, I invite one guest to tell me the one thing they would most like to share with mums everywhere. So join with me as we hear this dose of wisdom. I hope you enjoy it. Hello and welcome to today's guest episode of The Therapy Edit. And my guest today is the lovely Kate Silverton. Now, I recognise Kate initially from the TV. Kate was a broadcaster and newsreader for the BBC,

but now she is a children's counsellor. And she's also a number one times bestseller right there. And rightly so with her brilliant book, there's no such thing as naughty. The groundbreaking guide for parents with children, age nought to 5, so good. I've recommended it to so many friends. I'm a fully paid up member of the,

there is no such thing as naughty approach, which has been so incredibly helpful in my journey of parenting. She is, she shares her own experience as a mum and also kind of weaves in insight from different kind of world-renowned psychiatrist, neuroscientist and psychotherapists as well. So really encourage you to look that up. So Kate, it's so good to have you here today. Thank you for having me. And it's so good to see you. I've been looking forward to this day. when we were going to do this. I love your work. Oh, well, we've connected a little bit over Instagram, haven't we, over the last year? And so I've been really looking forward to hearing your one thing.

So with the book, it's just so ground and compassionate, it's tangible. I also listened to a podcast that you did where you kind of shared even more of your experience of parenting and how you're using there's no such thing as naughty approach. Have you got anything else in the pipeline because I want more? Well, I'm working politically now with. in a primary school and a secondary school. So that's incredible to be doing the work clinically and mummying, obviously. My husband works away a lot, so I'm solo parenting, so I come a lot from that perspective at the moment, which is also the reason. So there should be a second book

already handed in, but as you and I both know, writing a book is quite lengthy and time-consuming. So the second book is, you know, for the older children, I have to say the first book, does cover all ages, really, but it looks at the early years. So the second book, really looking at the primary years and for children sort of five to 11. So I've written tons. I've just got to sit and do the editing. But at the moment, on overwhelm, I've just said, the book's got to go on hold, something's got to give. And I think that's an important lesson, isn't it? It's a hard one. It's a bit like turning an oil tanker, and it's taking me a while to get to this point, but I just thought, I can't do it all right now.

And so if anybody is out there listening and thinking, I can't do it, or something has to give sometimes. And do you know what? When we make that big decision, which for me was quite big with the book, the space opens up and then we can just really enjoy moments like this talking to you and just getting my daughter off to Bushcraft at camp this morning without that terrible rush and jumble that can sometimes happen when we're trying to juggle so many balls.

So, yeah, there's a lot there. but right now it feels like I'm in a nice spatial space. I like that. I think it's so right, isn't it? There are definitely times in my life where I explain that I'm living like I'm being chased. You know, sometimes I'm literally running on my workdays from one room to another. And then you've got the, you know, the demandingness of parenting and all of the other different kind of things that are coming our way. So to put that on hold must have been a big thing, but it sounds like the right thing for now.

Well, I will patiently await and then I will pre-order as soon as I see any news. But Kate, the question that I ask our guest here, and I'm so excited to pose it to you, is if you could share one thing with all the mums and parents out there, what would that one thing be? Well, I've been thinking about this long and hard because there's so many things, but I guess I would come back to the title of the book, which is there's no such thing as naughty. and the reason why I named the book that, and it came to me when I kept thinking, look, our children are not naughty, they just have needs. And the reason why I think, when we're stressed out parents, it's really easy. And believe me, I still do it. And I can happily share an anecdote

from last night even when you kind of go, oh, really, this is just not acceptable. And then you ask the question of yourself in that moment of thinking, okay, hang on a moment. He's not normally like this as Wilbur last night was sort of having a bit of mayhem. And I think he's not normally like this. Okay, so what might be going on for him right now? And that's thing of being curious.

And as a parent, it can take quite a lot of energy when we're on our knees exhausted and the children are doing things. We'd rather they don't. But just stopping and thinking, are they feeling connected enough to me right now because they're looking like a flapping saying, in the wind, as I call it in the book. You know, is something going on for them. And stopping,

as I did with Wilbur last night, and say, look, is, you know, is there something I can help you with, Will's? Because your behaviour is testing mummy at the moment. And I really need to be helping Clemency pack her rucksack for school. And I can't do that when you're running around. And in that moment, and because I've been doing this, and it is like a muscle that needs exercising, exercising, for your child then to turn to you. And he burst into tears and said he was having difficulty at lunchtime. I never liked talking too much without thinking about it, you know, in terms of breaking confidences. But he basically, he'd struggled that day in lunchtime because his friends weren't playing a game and he found himself on his own and he didn't have

a book to read. What might seem like small things to us? And he said to me, I think I've been holding that in all day. He's learning, isn't he? He's learning that of awareness. And it's just wonderful when we can see, like another example, when he was a bit younger, he'd come running into my bedroom. He's a bit more fizzy than my daughter. And I think boys can sometimes at this age. He's now eight. So between that five to eight. And he's come running in. I've just made my bed. I'm trying to get out of the door on time. I've got the puppy downstairs. So what I call the baboon, you know, our limbic system is quite on high alert. And he comes in and jumps on the bed, jumping up and down. You know, and I'm like that. So it's not like I'm this parent that goes, oh, darling. don't worry about the bed. I'm like,

Wells, you know, don't jump on the bed. And so, and he's looking at me, and then he jumps again, and then, you know, you can, it can escalate. Now, I sat him down and would just say, look, well, his mummy's just made the bed, sweetheart. It takes me time to do that. Can we just find another way if you're feeling fizzy of just telling me what's going on? Because I think there's something going on for you, but, you know, and over time he's been learning to actually voice and name what it is going on for him inside. And the day I knew that I sort of was making progress was the day that he ran in, jumped up and down on the bed, looked at me and then went, I'm feeling a bit insecure about my

play date later. Oh, wow. So it really is a teaching and education and a slow kind of learning. Yeah, just if we can trust and have faith, and not to sort of plug the book overly, but, you know, because I explain it from a neuroscientific perspective, why our children's brains are not as developed as hours are. So they don't have the ability to self-regulate in the way that we do. And frankly, when we're tired and a little bit nervous and running from room to room, we are not brilliant all the time at regulating. So to expect our young children whose brains are still developing and will continue to develop until they're near a 30, which I was thinking is an amazing thing, we can't expect them to behave the way that we do. So to call it just to dismiss them as naughty is

really missing the point. And if we can get underneath the behaviour and think, what might be going on for you right now? And really crucially, how can I help? We actually, what we do in that moment is build a bond with our children because they can turn to us, as Wilbur did last night, and trust that rather than being sort of that fun sponge mummy who's kind of going, just get to bed, is actually mummy wants to listen. Is something going on for you right now? And I guarantee you, I guarantee every single time. it might be that they're missing you, they haven't had enough of you in the day, they're feeling a bit wobbly because their best friend doesn't want to play with them anymore, it might be something else entirely. But when we can build up and come from a place of, you know, I just want to sit with you right now, can you help me to understand what's going on for you? And when our children do that, and we can start really, really young with them, then we build a bond and communication that lasts for life and that behavior dissipates. It goes away. way doesn't mean doesn't still have outbursts every now and again but that's because they're still children they're still learning their brain is still developing but so i would say i'm going to

come to a close because i could just sit and top no i know it's amazing i'm just absorbed it all just to sort of be curious and and really be you know compassionate with ourselves but with our children and think what might be going on for you that's underlying that behavior and trust me as a parent we can always always help yeah and when we think about you know there's no such thing as naughty and perhaps we ourselves have been given that kind of that label as children and we remember you know you're just being naughty and when I take that approach and I definitely did earlier on in my parenting before I had access to this completely different way of approaching parenting and I do think it is it's a newer way of approaching parenting isn't it? You know a lot of

what I was taught originally was you know it's it's kind of that telling off you know you have to do it like this and that is, then you will get my approval. If you don't, then you're going to get my discipline. And actually, you know, we think that's quite manipulative, isn't it, really? And it's, if it's parenting, yeah, it is. Or I don't like you. Basically, it's the message that our children get rather than working together. I mean, it doesn't mean that we still don't have boundaries. You know, it's not acceptable to paint our hands red and stick it on the newly painted white wall. You know, we do have boundaries. And I talk a lot about that in the book and how we can lay them, but we do it as a process together.

It's a connection from that place of connection rather than kind of towering over with that discipline. And naughty, you know, when we say that, if I was to say, you're naughty, you're just being naughty, I'm completely removing myself, I'm taking no accountability for any of my, you know, what I might be able to do. I'm basically relinquishing myself, aren't I, saying, you're the problem. I'm currently a victim of. your naughtiness when actually you're right so much gets missed and what do you end up learning

when you when you when you just learn that it's you know it's the grown-ups way or the highway we grow up believing that actually the way to make it through life is just to please people and do what do what they want to keep everyone happy and then we know so much you know so many the people I see in therapy is it's kind of unpicking that you know and reminding people that their experience is valuable and valid, and it's not just about pleasing people. Yeah. And when we show our children, I mean, all of that, absolutely. Amen to that. And on the labelling, actually, because there's the other thing I talk about in terms of labels, like we've got to drop the labels, because if we say you're naughty, it's essentially that what a child is taking on,

I'm a bad person. So if we can, we can talk about behaviour, we can say that behaviour isn't acceptable. We don't accept that behaviour. So we can label the behaviour. I would still not the word naughty because it's sort of, as you say, that dismisses what's really going on for a child. And I think that communication between parent and children that my children, they'll call me out on stuff. So if I'm, they'll say, Mommy, that wasn't, you know, that was wrong. You've just, you know, told me off for doing X. And I didn't mean that. And I'm really, you know, it builds up a much more sort of respectful relationship. And I do mean that in terms of respectful. But your children will then, children want to please us. They really do.

do. We are the sort of gods, as it were, in their relationship. They want to please us. So if something, if they're acting out in a way that is not acceptable, that might be telling me that they're trying to get my attention in the only way they know how. And that's on me to be investing more time. And I've had that when my, and I'll say to Will's old clemency, like, it seems to me that you're really trying to get my attention. It's just not the best way of doing it. And then Wilbur, he'll quick as a flash turn to me and say, Mommy, can we play? which tells me, that's on me, I need more time with my child for him to feel connected that he doesn't need to be big in his behaviour, to see him. So that's on me.

Yeah, they're taking that responsibility. And that's hard. You know, that's heavy. And it is, I find this way of parenting a lot harder, to be honest, than they're right, go and sit on the naughty step, go and sit on the thinking step, go and, you know, then that kind of that manipulative or that fear-based, that fear-based way of parenting, you know, it's easier in some ways because it does work. You know, it does work when you rule by fear and you rule by discipline, it does work. I find this way of parenting requires so much more of me because I'm trying to contain my own emotional response to them and I'm trying to calm myself down so that I can be that, you know,

that grounding container that explores rather than just coming out sideways myself and having my own grown-up tantrum. And I find that this way of parenting requires me so much more to think about my own resources and my own energy levels and how can I refill myself so that I'm not coming out sideways as well. Really interesting. I started the second book talking about parental stress precisely because as you say, if we're depleted and running on empties, it's really hard to have that massive sort of capacity of compassion for our children. So two things on that, I would say, that the more we do it, it is hard sometimes. And, you know, I'm not perfect at it either.

Like last night, I was just in my head going, oh, for goodness sake. But as soon as you ask that question and you get this sort of crumpling of your child, like, coming in from a couple because they've had a really tough day. You go, oh, and that is the building blocks right there. And every time it happens, I'm like, oh, this is, because sometimes you think, is this is the right way? And then you go, it really is. And it becomes quicker and easier, the more it happens. So my children now, if they'll have a, because I really encourage big emotions, you know, they're still so young. I'm like, if you're angry, show me you're angry, not in using your fists or anything, but with your words. So it's okay to be angry. Anger is a valid emotion if you're disappointed or whatever. But show me, but now they will go, oh, mommy, I'm just so cross because. And inside I'm like, yes, because, but it takes time and it does take energy. And I don't always get it right the same way that we could say there's no such thing as perfect either, which is. both know. But that's fine because then we can apologize. But you're right, it does take

compassion and a lot of energy. But it also, I think it makes parenting easier because you get that really quick resolution. So if we sort of tend to use that naughty step approach, that the anger and the sort of the bad feelings can simmer for a long time. You know, nobody goes feeling happy if we've had a big row. But doing that sort of coming in at it with what's going on for you. I call it the soothing stair rather than the naughty step. So we'll sit on the soothing stair rocking backwards and forwards, that lovely somatosensory sort of rhythmic,

bringing ourselves back to balance and kind of go, what is it, sweetheart? Can you just tell that? I love this idea. And we just sit there. And now my son will, like, you know, last night he actually said, mummy, and he curled into my lap, and we sat there rocking back and foot forwards with a kiss on the head.

And that is where that beautiful, big burst of oxytocin comes in. And we all sit on the bed, Clementsy's got a rack sack sorted. We all sit there and Will was like, can we download our day? That's another thing that we do. We sit there and we download our day. So, yeah, you're absolutely right. I love that. It's effort, but trust me, it becomes a hell of a lot easier.

And you'll have a teenager that is going to be amazing because they'll be able to talk to you rather than, you know, everybody going into that big limbic baboon behavior. Yeah, this is lifetime investment, you know, and I absolutely love that idea of the soothing, you know, that soothing space. I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that. And I think, you know, I often say it's really hard to give what we haven't had and what we're not giving ourselves. So, you know, it might be that we're, you know, kind of coming at it as this might be a fresh approach to some parents

if there is no such thing as naughty. But then we also have to think about how we are parenting ourselves. You know, if we're saying to ourselves, I am this, I am, you know, what whatever that label that you might be applying to yourself, how can you perhaps, you know, ask yourself what's going on here or give yourself a little bit of that compassion so that then it's, you know, it comes a little bit more familiar. Yeah, and giving that out. You have to have that compassion. I mean, we both know Joe, Joe Wicks, and Joe said the book had changed his life because he said the way, and he's been public about this and he's spoken on record about it, but he said he was, you know, his dad shouted a lot when, when he was a child and he said, I felt like,

I was becoming that dad. He said, and I hated it. I'd shout. And then I'd go back into my children's room and lie on the floor and, you know, and feel really bad. And he said, now I can understand, you know, I can have compassion with myself. I can sort of sort of sort of myself out first. Go in. I can say, I can always repair, you know, that rupture and repair that we talk about in therapy.

And apologize. And then that behavior, when we're aware of it and being much more self-aware of like, oh, I'm building up. But that's because I'm tired. I'm depleted. so I need to do a bit of self-soothing in a healthy way for myself if I'm going to give that to my children. And that means time in for us too if we can squeeze that in the day. But yeah, we've got to. Well, this is life-changing and thank you so much for bringing this to us today. So incredibly helpful and soothing and hopeful. And all of those things, yes, it takes a lot,

but we're investing into these relationships for life. And children, you know, that will grow into adults that won't be just kind of tied to that people-pleasing. I've got to make people happy so that they're not cross with me that will then later need unpicking, but we'll be able to have these kind of internal conversations with themselves more compassionately. And maybe then with their children. So this is, you know, it's a legacy thing when we address this.

So thank you. Okay, I've got some quick five questions to finish off. Yes. So the first one is, what's a motherhood high for you? Oh, oh, gosh. Gosh, there's so many. I think giving birth, actually. Yeah. Oh, kissing my baby's heads. Yeah. Yeah. They never smell that good again, do they? No shampoo can ever bring that scent back.

And what's a motherhood low for you? Oh, well, whenever it gets past 8 o'clock and I'm on my knees exhausted and want to weep with exhaustion and the energy just isn't there to be that compassionate mom that I strive so hard to be. and those are the times when I just, you know, but yeah, I'd say when you're on your knees exhausted and your parenting solo, I think I'd give a big shout out to anyone parenting solo. Do you know what? We're just as a society. I don't think we're not meant to be alone in this. Community is so important, not not meant to, but you know what I mean, that actually we need to be able to help each other so much more. So also ask for help. That would be my other little tip because I'm glad to doing that. Anyway, sorry, these are meant to be good. No, no, I love it. No, I like that.

I like that you slipped an extra one in there. Very grateful. And what's one thing that makes you feel good? Oh, when my children turned to me and like they did last night and we have that bonding moment when I know that I've got it right, just a little bit of listening, compassion, curiosity, and I've helped my children go to bed without any worries in their head. Yeah, and with less of that, oh my gosh, I'll try, I'll do better tomorrow, that kind of that lingering shilt, that we're almost excited for them to wake up.

Yes, yes. And finally, how would you describe motherhood in three words? Exhausting, exhilarating, magical. Oh, I thought you're going to give us another E there. Exhausting, exhilarating and magical. Yeah, ecstatic or something. Ecstatic is an extra one. So thank you so much, Kay. I highly encourage people if they haven't already. to get a copy of your book. There's no such thing as naughty. I've got a three-year-old,

a six-year-old and a seven-year-old, and I can wholeheartedly say that all, everything in there is so relevant, both parenting them and also, you know, reflecting on how we've been parented and how we internally parent ourselves. So thank you so much for everything that you bring. And it's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you. It's been so lovely. I love your work as well. I'll be watching you. And thank you very much for having me on. Thank you for listening to today's episode of The Therapy Edit. If you enjoyed it, please do share, subscribe or review because it makes a massive difference to how many people it can reach.

You can find more from me on Instagram at Anna Martha. You might like to check out my three books, Mind Oath and Mother, Know Your Worth, and my new book, The Little Book of Calm for New Mums, grounding words for the highs, the lows, and the moments in between. It's a little book you don't need to read it from front to back. You just pick whatever emotion resonates to find a mantra. a tip and some supportive words to bring comfort and clarity. You can also find all my resources,

guides and videos, all with the sole focus of supporting your emotional and mental well-being as a mum. They are all £12 and you can find them on anamatha.com. I look forward to speaking with you soon.