The Therapy Edit - One Thing with MANtenatal on better ways to communicate as co-parents

Episode Date: June 16, 2023

In this Friday guest episode of The Therapy Edit, Anna chats to Gordon of MANtenatal whose One Thing offers us a father's perspective on how couples can communicate effectively and move away from the feeling we're nagging. Gordon created MANtenatal after attending two 'traditional' antenatal courses. The courses were ok, but they never seemed to give any real focus on preparing men for the amazing and sometimes difficult journey to fatherhood. It was time to act!MANtenatal is a fully digital platform, designed by dads and endorsed by the NHS in the UK, along with Midwives & Doula's from around the world. You get to select the course format that works for you. Do you prefer to chat live with other dads, or perhaps have a private 1:1? Some of you reading this may want to simply download the course and watch it in your own time. No matter your preference, we've got you covered! But that is not all... when you join MANtenatal, you automatically become part of a global squad of guys who can openly talk about MENtal health issues impacting dads too. This is a safe space and nothing is taboo!You can find out more about MANtenatal here.You can follow MANtenatal on Instagram here.

Hello and welcome to The Therapy Edit with me, psychotherapist's mum of three and author Anna Martha. Every Friday, I invite one guest to tell me the one thing they would most like to share with mums everywhere. So join with me as we hear this dose of wisdom. I hope you enjoy it. Hi everyone. Welcome to today's guest episode of The Therapy Edit. I'm really excited today. I have Gordon from Mantonatal. Now, Mantonator is a fully digital platform offering online coaching for new dads, including live groups, one-to-one and also an on-demand offering as well. Gordon created Mantonatal after attending two traditional antenatal courses

that he felt didn't give any real focus on preparing the men for the amazing and sometimes difficult journey to fatherhood. Now, it is designed by dads and it is endorsed by midwives, dealers and also the NHS and the course invites dads to share hopes and concerns. You benefit from practical tips to help prepare for the arrival of your baby and also lots of insight into how to support mum. And he also covers what to expect afterwards exploring the roles that you play and focusing on bonding and ongoing support for mental health as well. Amazing. Gordon, I'm just, I'm grateful to have you here today and I'm so grateful that you're putting this out into the world. Well, let me start by saying the feeling is mutual.

I'm so appreciative of being here with you today. So thank you for that. I think hearing that bio spiel, if you like, about my business, like I don't take the time to step back and just think about what it is we're actually adding in terms of genuinely, yes, we focus on the dads, Nana, but what we're really doing is who benefits as well, mum, right? And then we talk about family instead.

of 99% of content always focusing on mum, there's very little that actually gets the dad ready. And if we can get them ready as well, then guess what? You've got a really strong partnership. Yeah, it's so important. And I have worked with many people whose partners have felt just unprepared for that sense of, you know, some said it's a sense of helplessness in labour and birth. And there's even, you know, the focus often around trauma is on the woman and birth trauma. But what about, you know, the partner that is. You know, the partner that is. their present and seeing all this unfold in front of them. So there are so many parts of the conversation I totally agree with you that have been missing and you're stepping into that

space and you are doing it and bringing it and everyone benefits when we turn our attention to supporting the men as well. I fully agree. I think one of the things that we're really, really focused on is we say to the guys, we don't want you to be a spectator and being a father or a parent is not a spectator sport, right? We want you off the bench and we want you to get stuck in. And the last thing we want is that daunting moment of when mum's in that place of pain and managing and she can't even communicate, that I don't want you literally just feeling like a rabbit and edge headlights. I want the guys to be confident and ready to step up. And I don't know how far I can go in terms of what I can say.

So I will moderate my language where I'll say, we even say to the guys, you're not going to be a real dad until you've got your baby's poo behind your nails, right? Because that's the dads we want, right? We do not want dads who say, that's a mum's job, that we need to break these generational trends. And I think that, like I say, we're tough on them, we're honest with them. And we tell them it's hard work. Yeah.

And things are changing. that generational change is happening. My wonderful father-in-law said to my husband the other day, we just didn't have the input that you do. It's amazing that you do. So he's watching my husband just get totally stuck in. He's always been really stuck in with all the nappies and stuff. And I think he's reflecting on his experience of early fatherhood.

So there is a shift. There is a shift happening. And I'm so sure it's because of the work that you're doing that is helping facilitate this. this shift. So thank you, Gordon. The question that I ask all the guests here is if you could share one thing with all the ones that listen on the school run, walking the dog, outpushing buggers with babies that won't sleep, what's that one thing that you would love to share? So for me, I would use that really work, that work that's overused, but we need to take time to go into it,

which is communication. And what I just want to qualify that a little bit by saying, communication is not just about talking. It's also about listening. So I think in terms of listening, one of the things that I think that mums could perhaps think about doing, and again, I don't want to add more to the mental workload, the mental life load that mums have got to do it, because I promise you, like I've said more than once, the guys get some tough messaging to. But perhaps it's reframing the feedback piece, right, in terms of perhaps you're not doing enough. or I'd like you to do more nappies. As soon as that word you comes out,

for whatever reason, some guys can feel they're being nagged at. And I know that that's crazily enough. Women get frustrated that they feel they have to nag. Right? So it's a bit of a double-edged sort. So perhaps if we rephrase that slightly by saying,

I would like us to be more present together, I would like us to play much more active role together, then there isn't that feeling of criticism. And I think when you become a parent for the first time, whether it be mum or dad, a huge part of that, Anna, is in that communication is encouragement, right? Because you're going to make so many mistakes, right? No one's going to get it all right. And I think there's the encouragement when you put the nappy on wrong and the poo leaks out

the side or the wee comes out. It's like, do you know what? I didn't get it right. But at least I'm trying, right? And I want to get better at it. And I think if we reframe the word you to I, it can maybe take. some of the heat out of those conversations and then it kind of leads me on to

talking when things are calm right is just magical versus in a pressure environment so when you've been up throughout the night and you've had the night of hell and we've all been there trying to have a dialogue about ways to make it better

it's not on a solid foundation right it's on a foundation of lava right it's moving it's hot it's it's difficult right i've got memories of arguments that have happened at three a m and yeah you're right it's not there's a lot of you language going on back and forth and it feels like you feel a bit tact don't you yeah i think i felt that and i'm sure my husband has felt that you do and and so one of the things that we try to share even with the dads in the course is is trying to have a dialogue while it's calm but we bring it to life and we'll say why not hit pause on that one night, right, put the kettle on, and just sit and say, we're going to create space to

actually talk, space to just have a genuine dialogue, but then you know this, right? It's about active listening as well, right, and improving your listening. And these are all skills that just take time. But if you don't keep that communication channels open, it can be a really pressurized environment, and it's never going to be a positive outcome, or very rarely it is a positive outcome. The other thing when I say communication about listening as well

one of the things that guys do more often than not and of course I'm admitting this live with you is we do go into solution mode right we do go into that place of right so if mum wants to tell me something my brain even as you're

talking is thinking do you know what I've got a pragmatic way to try and do something to fix and perhaps perhaps and again not adding to that load if sometimes

if those conversations are framed better you can have a better outcome right so what I mean by framed is if mum just wants to get stuff off her chest and vent and everybody does right not just mum's guys do too right maybe at the start by saying

this is a moment where I don't want you to solve this is a listening moment then the guy isn't going down that road there will be times where of course when says, you know what? I need you to help me and come up with a solution on X. But if at the start of that conversation, and you know in that fourth trimester, there's a hormonal roller coaster, right? And if mum wants to just say stuff and can be emotive, it can be energized, if you just say at the start, this is a listening moment. Guy won't jump into solution mode. And if you say that

it's one of the two, it's almost like putting a subject field in an email, right? This email is about listening. This email is about solving. Tell me that beforehand and I hopefully won't stand on the landmines. Does that make sense? That makes so much sense. And also an encouragement, I think this is just good in relationships, false stop, in friendships as well, just saying, kind of asking that other person, do you want what you look, do you want me just to be here or do you want thoughts and advice? Because yeah, that would just be so helpful if we just asked each other what are you wanting right now? What theory is it, right?

Yeah, kind of a two-way thing. So just, yeah, having that as an agreement almost in a relationship that if someone feels like they want to talk, how can you almost just come in with that question right from the off, just put on the table. You don't know, right? Yeah. Guys don't have a spider sense that says, do you know what, I think this is going to be A or B? Because the chances are, it's 50-50, you're going to get a long after time, right? so sometimes and it comes back to that whole thing around expectations as well is if you don't manage those expectations the chances are you're going to fail so in terms of like what are the rules of the game on so are the rules of the game that dad's getting up i don't know Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday and mum's doing the start of the week like if you don't have these we call them rules of the game if you don't have these at various points in terms of

your journey and being a parent, you're going to have expectations and you're going to fail. Because I don't know what your expectations are. We haven't talked about it, which goes back to what I've said at the start, communication. And the stories that we tell ourselves. So I might, if my husband's got this thing, he does and he leaves his boxes on the way to the shower, on top of the washing basket. And for ages, I started getting really wound up thinking he was just leaving them there, assuming I would then just, you know, finish. off the job and put them inside the washing bag. And I was getting increasingly annoyed. And then I spoke to him and I said, this is what I think is happening. He said, no, it's because often you're asleep

and I don't want to wake you up by making a noise in the washing basket with the lid because it's got this kind of lid. Yeah, it makes a bit of noise. And it was just that we just had a conversation about what was going on and what the story that I created that hadn't checked with him until that point. So I was then reacting to the boxes on the washing basket and he was totally non the words. But that little conversation just kind of laying it out and saying, what are we doing here? It just cuts some of that story out, that assumption, that confusion, that miscommunication. Yeah. And you know that's right. And you know that's Right. When you become a parent, it's a treadmill, right? It's going 100 miles an hour.

And if you can agree as a couple, these are the moments we step off it. And we actually have that chat. So that's when I talk about maybe you create calm moments because it's just relentless, right? Becoming a parent, it's relentless. It's 24-7. You're on call. So like I'll give an analogy and say pause Netflix, pause Amazon, whatever it may be. But maybe you've got to create those calm moments. And maybe you see. to each other as a couple, do you know what? No matter what, we're going to carve out, I don't know, an hour before dinner, an hour after dinner. Maybe if little one does sleep, we actually use the time for us, right?

I mean, the worst advice I ever heard as a parent was sleep when baby sleeps. Good luck with that when you're on the motorway doing something. Oh, gosh, yeah. Are you in the supermarket? Yeah, good luck with that. What I'd rather say is when little one sleeps, focus on what you guys need and prioritize that. because if not it is 24-7 and what about those moms that are listening thinking

this is amazing I in my wildest dreams I'd be having these conversations with my partner but he just doesn't want to talk he doesn't want to talk about emotions he doesn't there is no way that he'd want to stop watching whatever series are watching to make space for this how can I

let's start these conversations off I think one of the first things I'll say is there is an official statistic that says one in ten new dads will suffer from some type of mental illness, whether it be anxiety, depression, but I'm also the first one to say I don't believe the stat. I think the stats higher. Yeah, I do agree. I think it's so much higher because it relies on a dad admitting that, you know, I need help. I'm struggling. And not every guy does, right? And it relies on a partner identifying the trigger. or the signs where I think he needs help. And again, not every partner does. So when you put just those two variables and the number's massive, right? It has to be higher than one in ten.

And I think that one of the things that we encourage the dads to do and there's no reason why moms can't do this as well is ensuring that dads can open up, right? And it is okay not to be okay and to admit that things aren't perfect because there is so much. expectation on perfection rather than you know what we're just making progress we're surviving and i think admitting that we've all got flaws and i i've got many i make many mistakes right i forgot to hang the washing out this morning for example right um and yeah it's sitting there in the

basket it's like i don't even see it so i think um i think encouragement is a huge part of it encouragement when when when things are going well when when dad is do you know what really stepping up and really giving it is all but yeah, he's going to make mistakes and removing the critique so that you can have that dialogue and encouraging Dad to talk to his friends and open up and have that

the networks of other dads that don't necessarily it's not about his friendship group because people are on different journeys, right Anna? So I became a father at different times to some of my best friends so I can't talk to them about some of the stuff because they can't

they can't live, they've never lived it, right? They can't share that experience. But maybe it's about creating networks outside from neutral bodies. So one of the things we have at Mantonato is we have a Discord server where any dad can go into, and it's available in his pocket 24-7. And maybe it's about pointing dad to these kind of services and things that are available to them where they can go and talk. Yeah. Sometimes just sharing what's on your mind can actually take a, and get an advice.

right so that's available 24-7 to any guy in the world and just saying why don't you look at that because there's things in there not just the fun stuff right like at baby announcements or recommending products you've seen on Amazon there's also a whole section on mental health there's a whole section on dad supporting each other so when dad's up at 2 in the morning having a nightmare Anna saying I need help I'm really struggling

another dad will be up somewhere else in the world I'm up mate how can I help you And you and I talked about it just before we went live, right? It's for whatever reason, right, it's got to be something in here, right? It's got different power when it comes from a guy. Yeah. It does. When guys talk to other guys, especially about fatherhood, it just lands differently.

I'm not trying to be sexist. It's just a fact it is. Yeah. Yeah. And actually the other week, I remember we had a really full-on week. And my husband, he's often not around in the weekdays. So the weekends is when, you know, we're together as a family. And I kind of breathe a sigh of relief because there's another pair of hands and it's not, you know, the buck doesn't stop with me.

And he had planned half a day, half a day of golf or something like that. And there was a part of me that was just like, oh my gosh, why are you leave like you're going off on the weekend and this is our time and I need you. And then I remembered and I think often about how men. often communicate, enjoy communicating alongside one another. So when the focus isn't just on conversation, I'll happily go for a coffee with a friend, sit opposite, have a good chat. Whereas I know that he will talk with another guy alongside doing something else, often sport. Yeah. Let's face it. Watching sport, engaging in sport, golf. So I just, yeah, had this part of me that was like, no, why are you doing this? And then this other part of me,

that was fully aware that he needed to do that and I want to as far as I can facilitate him doing that and I will have my needs met with my friends and he is great at facilitating that but it is different and it looks different sometimes and we want our blokes to talk more but sometimes that needs to be in different context than perhaps us moms are comfortable doing.

Absolutely. And one of the, I remember I can tell a quick story here is, so I play football twice a week as well, right? And by the way, I also say to dads, it doesn't mean life's over, right? It doesn't mean you can't still do the stuff that makes you you. So I play a dads v. Dads football game twice a week, right? So it's, and I remember there was one time that things were difficult at home, and it came up that it was football that evening. And I remember having that conversation with my wife that, do you know what, generally mentally, I'm in a better place after playing that sport,

playing that football for an hour and a half. Just let me get it all out. And you are, you're screaming, you're shouting, you're having banter with the guys. But I said, then you get a better version of me, right? I get to come home and I've had that release, right? Rather when you're in work 9 to 5, et cetera, I said, but for my mental health, it's going to help.

And you know, like, sports got such benefits as well. But we encourage the dads to do stuff for them, but I promise you as I say more than once give mum the space to do the stuff she needs as well right it works two ways yeah and having conversation a frank conversation

with your partner about what that looks like for each of you and how you might facilitate that for the other person it's really important and that's by communication right you've agreed the rules absolutely yeah rather than just sitting there sometimes simmering with resentment

and frustration and yeah having those conversations and sharing some of those stories that you've got in your mind about the meaning behind these things and actually allowing each other to add their own voice to it and share, yeah, share the truth. So thank you. That is so, yeah, truly helpful, lots of practical insight and advice there. So really, really grateful. I have got some quickfire questions for you to finish off. What is fatherhood high for you, Gordon? fatherhood high is my children give me a perspective so no matter what noise um whatever difficulties

happening in happening in the day um that moment that you're running get the cuddle or you see the smile so the high is it's just it rebalances me yeah i like that and what's uh low for you a low is um when when they're poorly um and i can't fix it and again and it goes back to what we said is my natural instinct is how do I solve and can I take the pain away but you can't and you've got to go through that journey and that that's difficult yeah it is and what's something that makes you feel good besides football for you? I think seeing seeing my kids growing into into amazing little human beings that I guess it's a combination of our parenting styles that have played that part and hearing other people

saying, do you know what, they're polite, they're kind. And just watching them grow is incredible. And I always say that fatherhood is the hardest thing I ever did, Anna, but it's the best thing I ever did. Yeah, the hardest and the best. That definitely resonates. Well, Gordon, thank you so much. And thank you for everything that you're doing in creating a safe space for dads. You know what? What I would love, hint-h-hint, is if you could just write all of this down into a book that I could gift people and, you know, it definitely would have been one that would have ended up on my husband's bedside table. That would be amazing.

Is that something you could? Yeah. Okay. So I'll take the hint. And I can confirm that we are working on a book at the moment. We're over 15,000 words in. Amazing. But I'm conscious I'll be putting it in a format that's very much man friendly.

But we won't pull any punches. So yeah, maybe end at 23, something like that if we can. Brilliant. Well, I can't wait. I can't wait for that one. So thank you so much for your time. Everyone, head over to Mantonatal on Instagram where you can find out all about the different courses and resources and communities

that Gordon has passionately and compassionately set up for the dads in our lives. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. Please do take a moment to subscribe, rate and review as it really helps. get these words out to benefit more juggling parents like us and head to annamartha.com to find my resources on everything from health anxiety to people pleasing starting at only 20 pounds and finally don't forget to pre-order my new book raising a happier mother how to find balance

feel good and see your children flourish as a result I can't wait for you to have that take care and we'll chat soon Thank you.