The Therapy Edit - One Thing with Natasha Devon on parenting in a digital world

Episode Date: June 23, 2023

This week on The Therapy Edit, Anna chats to guest Natasha Devon who offers her one thing to mothers around the world who might be struggling with how best to approach parenting their children in a digital age; with curiosity.This episode is packed full of tips and advice and if you love what Natasha has to say you’ll want to get your copy of her new book; ‘Clicks; How to be your best self online’.You can also follow Natasha on Instagram here.

Hello and welcome to The Therapy Edit with me, psychotherapist's mum of three and author Anna Martha. Every Friday, I invite one guest to tell me the one thing they would most like to share with mums everywhere. So join with me as we hear this dose of wisdom. I hope you enjoy it. Hi, everyone. Welcome to today's guest episode of The Therapy Edit. When I saw this one pop up in my diary, I was so grateful and relieved because, and I know, I just know that you will be too. I'm speaking today with award-winning author, journalist, activist, and mental health campaigner, Natasha Devon, MBE. Now, I received her book yesterday and I just felt this huge wave of relief.

It's a handbook. It's called Clicks, How to Be Your Best Self Online, and it has just been published. It is out there and available to buy. It is an essential new guide offering teens, their parents and carers' invaluable advice on how to navigate the online world from a practical point of view. So we're going to be talking with Natasha Devon now about the book and about how on earth do we help our kids navigate this world of the internet and social media. So I'm so grateful to be talking to you today, Natasha. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

It's lovely to be here. And how are you? I was asked my guest, it could be as top line or as deep and meaningful as you want to be. How are you today? I'm good. It was Mental Health Awareness Week last week as we're recording this. And it's always a little bit of a strange week when you're in the mental health world because, you know, we spend 365 days a year talking about this stuff. And then suddenly there's this influx of interest and everybody's like, you know, that thing you've been saying about mental health for ages? Well, I'm actually listening now. And that can be quite intense. So I'm trying to kind of take care of myself a little bit this week. Good. Yeah, absolutely. No, and I'm, that resonates with me very much. Natasha, there are so many conversations I have with other moms and they often go a little bit like this. So-and-so is asking for a phone, oh my goodness, what are you going to say?

How long are you going to try and hold off? Oh, no. Can you even think about them finding Instagram? Can you even think about, oh, and we just go down this spiral and it ends up with us saying, I just can't even go there. I just can't even think about it because we, we've known the internet. I think it was at university when we kind of got access to Facebook, you know, and that was I remember that day. We haven't navigated a childhood online like our kids. It's so true. And actually

that's one of the things that I say in the book is that we are of the generation where we are definitely old enough that we remember life before this kind of technology. But we are young enough that when it came along, we embraced it and it was exciting. So you describing Facebook at university, I remember, I think I'm probably a little bit older than you, but I remember, you know, things like MySpace and how exciting that was and how we were all so enthusiastic about developing an online life. And I think that that's a really valuable perspective, but it's also one that when our generation die out, will never be had again.

I kind of wanted to commit it to paper because I think that there's a perspective there that we can offer younger people that will help them then with their reality, which is having been immersed in this world since birth, essentially. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So I'm really excited to hear what the one thing that you would love to share with all the mums that listen, who are thinking, help me. Help me, Natasha. So I think the, my number one tip for any mental health conversation is to approach it curiously, to approach it with curiosity. Because when I'm talking to teenagers, they, they always say to me, when I say, have you

thought about telling your mom or your dad or whoever's at home about this thing that you're sharing with me, they always say, no, they'll freak out. And I think that we have to, first of all, kind of assuage that fear. and you can do that by asking lots of open questions. And I think the rule when it comes to technology is broadly the same, that if you approach it curiously and say to them, okay, so what is it that you think you're going to get if you get a phone? How do you think your life will change?

Or what is this app that you're really into at the moment? Show it to me. Show me what you do on there. Or can I watch you play this game for a bit? And what you're doing then is you are getting to understand the technology better and you're also making them trust you through that conversation. I think it's a really useful way. There's a chapter in the book about teaching up,

saying to teenagers, your parents might not get this at all. The chances are they're on different apps than you are. So there's an opportunity there for you to show them. And that I think can be a really good bonding exercise, actually. Yeah, so kind of coming alongside them and inviting, just, yeah, seeking to be. a part of that learning so that you're teachable so that you're inviting your children to teach you

and then I guess you gain insight into what they're up to as well and where they're going with their questions and where they're going with their time. Yeah and also learning about the technology because so many parents say to me I just don't even understand and I don't have time to learn how it works but this is time with your child, quality time with your child, quality time with your child. So you're kind of ticking that box and they can teach you about the technology as well. Yeah. And your book, which I love just on the front, it says spot fake news, be an ally and beat the algorithm. So it's just a real invitation to, you know, we're going to be spending as teenagers, as, you know, as young adults, they're going to be spending time online. It's going to

happen. And I think there are parents who would just love for that never, never to be a part of the But it's going to be. And in school, some of the homework that my kids are doing are on websites on the computer. So they're already, it's part of their life already. They're learning, some of learning to write code. Yeah. And in terms of the content that they're exposed to, your child is only as safe as the least safe child in their class. Because even if they're not allowed social media accounts, they're going to be shown stuff. There's some really interesting research around when children are first exposed to pornography. And it's normally, they are shown it by another child in the playground. And usually to gross them out, you know, there's not a kind of sexual element to it. So even if you are putting in place really solid boundaries, you still have to engage with this conversation. Yeah. And knowing that rather than what can be tempting sometimes is just stick your head in the sand. But then, you know, thinking about you want to be approached.

to your child and I love the fact as a therapist I always say to my clients I actually genuinely feel pretty unshockable in my work you know in my work life but how can I ensure that my children get that sense of me at home as well so that they know that they can come to me with just the honest truth sometimes are perhaps things that they might be exposed to in their class and you're right it's a yeah we can put all of the parental controls on things and we can have all of the boundaries at home, but we can't control what happens on the classroom. So we need to be starting these conversations. So how would we, how do we approach this conversation? I think many people listening have got younger children who perhaps are just starting to show an interest in

getting a phone. My son is eight. He asks one. I'm pretty sure we're going to hold off until he goes to secondary school. But just the awareness of the internet and all that it can be used for and the highs and loads of it. Because social media, for example, I think it's one of the most incredibly supportive tools, but also one of the most destructive and dangerous tools. So they're going to get access to these things at some point. How can we start teaching them now? A little bit of awareness of what they might find and how to navigate it, even if it's not in our own home. It's the critical thinking skills that I think that parents can really help with. So understanding that people aren't always who they say they are online. Also, scientific literacy,

and this is something that I'm working really hard with teenagers on at the moment, that just because there is a study that shows, one of the ones I talked to them about, there's this study online that shows that people who drink celery juice are less likely to exhibit symptoms of depression than people who don't drink celery juice and talking to them about how that doesn't mean that celery juice cures depression and the difference between correlation and causation and looking at things like sample size, you know, just things like that so that they're not just accepting everything on face value, you know? Really, really interesting in different ways of, I guess different ways of experiencing

and interpreting information. So is that the kind of the fake news part of it, just getting them to just be a little bit more critical of information that they're coming across. Yeah, there's a fact that I always share with them. When I'm teaching a year group, I say, raise your hand if you live in a house with an even number on the door, you know, if your address starts with an even number. And about half of them raise their hand, because there's only two options, really. And I say, statistically, you are more likely to get better grades in your GCSEs than those who live with an odd number on the door. Now, to do the best you can in your exams is the solution to move. No. It's just that one was always going to be

better than the other because that's how numbers work. It's just getting them to think about those things and question because the research shows that it's less about the subject matter itself and more about who they're getting the information from in terms of young people and they'll have their trusted influences that they defer to for pretty much everything. And that's a problem because no one's an expert on everything. And one of the things I talk about in the role models chapter is saying, you know, you can admire an aspect of a person. But that doesn't mean that they have to be your personal guru and you have to buy into absolutely everything that they do. Yeah. So it's just a bit of discernment in a way, isn't it? Prompting a bit of discernment.

So what's your biggest concern as our children head towards the internet? And then also I'd love to ask what is your biggest excitement as they learn to navigate this world? Because I think there's a lot of fear in the mums that I speak to, but also they're going to be navigating this world. So it'd be great to hear from you what you think one of, you know, a couple of the benefits are going to be for them. So the fear and the benefits. I think that my biggest fear is how siloed we have become. And again, I talk about this, that it's, we're put into a slipstream of people with similar views and outlooks on the world as us and the importance of stepping out of your slipstream. I actually, I had an example of this recently where I've done an hour on Brexit. I have a show on LBC at the weekends and I've done an hour on Brexit.

And somebody tweeted me and said, can you give me one piece of evidence that Brexit, it has not been good for Britain. And I said, I can give you several. And I said, you know, his 5.5% loss of GDP compared to if we hadn't left and blah, about four or five statistics. And this person replied and said, it seems like you're using leftist statistics. And I thought, I don't know how you fight that. Like where somebody goes, well, I don't like those facts.

So I'm going to find a different set of facts to operate. on. So I think that's my greatest fear that because we have to have some agreed truths as a species, otherwise we're doomed, you know. And but then my greatest hope in terms of social media is it's a real, it's a way to plug into a community. And I think about all the young people who are, you know, queer but not out yet, or maybe they're the only one of their religion or their race or the only one with a disability in their school and the access that it gives them to people with a similar experience, people who are maybe a little bit older than them and have navigated it and have some wisdom to share, that's a massive advantage that is hardly

ever acknowledged when we talk about social media. Yeah, absolutely. And I think just those little pockets of community that in our present culture that we're, you know, the bubble of culture that we're living in and moving in, it might feel really niche. We might feel really misunderstood and people might feel really unseen. And then to be able to go and find a community where you feel really validated

and understood and seen, absolutely life-changing for some people to have that place to go if they can't find it in their day-to-day life. And yeah, on that fear as well, the fact that you can go online, you can find people who totally agree with what you say,

and affirm it and actually our view can just be narrowed by that and just being teachable keeping that teachability open just because that's what you think it doesn't mean you're right just because someone doesn't agree doesn't mean that they're wrong and even if you are right I still understand the other person's point of view you know and I describe it like a maths problem if you can see someone's workings but you don't agree with their solution okay you know there's some value in the workings then. Just take a look at it. And if you are as right as you think you are, it won't change your conclusion. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So just being, yeah, being teachable and being open to learning from other people, just to broaden, broaden that wide view.

So what are three tips then for those with, or one tip for parents of teenagers at the moment, alongside just learning from them and inviting them to teach you. And then a tip for parents who aren't quite there yet and who are looking ahead. Okay. So a tip for parents of teenagers would be try if you can not to take away technology as punishment. Because there's a charity called Childnet who do incredible work in this area. And they, did some research that found that teenagers were less likely to speak to parents if they were being radicalized or they were being pressured to send naked pictures or they thought they were being groomed. They were less likely to confide in the adults around them if they thought that the

consequence would be that their phone or tablet would be taken away from them. So if you can think of a different way of, you know, punishing them or regulating them, that's good because it kind of assuages that fear. And then for parents of younger children, I would say, look at your own relationship with social media first. You know, if you're, if you think it's good not to have phones at the dinner table, for example, that's a rule that you should be following. And that, there's a whole generation now of parents who are completely addicted to technology because technology is incredibly addictive and we didn't know how dangerous it was when it first came into our lives who are now trying to raise children. So I think that the most helpful

thing that you can do is address yourself first. Yeah. I try and remind myself to let my kids know what I'm doing on my phone as well because sometimes I just pick it up and they don't know what I'm doing. As far as I'm concerned, my attention has just moved to my phone. So therefore, it must be really quite wonderful and interesting and desirable if it takes so much of my focus. So I try and remember to just say, I'm just adding carrots to the online shop. I'm just messaging Daddy and see what time he's getting home. So that they, that I try and make it purposeful as to why I'm picking up my phone. And I try and I've got this brilliant app that I downloaded the other day and it's called one sec. And all it does is you apply it to

different apps that you find yourself compulsively going on to. Have you heard of it? No, I haven't. It sounds great. It's great. So I put it on Instagram and my email because those are the ones. I'll go and put the carrots on. I'll find myself scrolling, God knows what, cats or something, you know, reading someone's live story, immersed in someone else's story whilst trying to cook dinner. And all it does, it just makes you take a breath before you go onto the app and it just pauses you for five seconds and it's got this sort of visual way of inhale and exhale and then it says do you still want to go on and often you're like no I actually don't know why I was checking my email in this very moment in time so it's just a bit

just prompts you to be a bit more mindful I guess of why you're using it and and asking yourself what am I teaching them about technology because it is useful and it is you know, it's needed and it's part of our lives. But yeah, questioning our own relationship and what they're seeing of that. So thank you so much. And no nonsense guide on living your best life online from Natasha Devon, youth mental health advocate and social media enthusiast. So I love that what you've written here is don't put your phone down. This brilliant book is packed with tips and tricks for healthy social media habits that will teach you how to make the internet work for you. So whether you've got teenagers or children,

with phones who are navigating this online world and also just I think as as parents as well just grabbing hold of this book and engaging in it and questioning your own relationship with it and garnering some tools so that when those conversations do arise and when the relationship with our children and their phones because it is a relationship isn't it that we need to navigate and be mindful of and evolves that we've got some tools and yeah conversation starters to have them. So thank you. Thank you so much. So valuable and so, so flipping needed. And I'd love to finish off, Natasha, with a couple of quick-fire questions. What's a high for you in life at the moment? Anytime that a teenager says to me, wow, that was really relevant. That really resonated

with me. I'm super mindful of the fact I'm in my early 40s now. So the gap between me and the teenagers I work with is getting wider and wider. And I think, oh, what if I can't speak to them in a way that chimes with them anymore. But they, I often get that feedback of, oh, that was actually really relevant. So yeah, that gives me a little pep in my step. Oh, it's hit. It's hit them somewhere. They're going to take that away and think about it. Something shifted in them. I love that. And what's a challenge or a low fee at the moment? I think the mental health is really tied up with structural inequality, and that is getting worse. And so there is only so much you can do, you know, when you're talking to people about tips for managing their own well-being

and places where they can seek further help, support and advice, you're kind of giving them the sun cream, but then the sun is getting hotter and hotter and hotter, and that's really frustrating. Yeah, yeah, you do. We do what we can, but the kind of, yeah, the structures, the still there and strengthening along the way. It's a battle, isn't it? And finishing off, what's something that makes you feel good, BG? So I have really, really got into yoga and I absolutely love it. And I never thought of myself as a yoga person. Because I had this idea in my head that you had to be a certain type in order to get into it. And, and anybody who does think that that's nonsense it's it's just it's just stretching in a way that makes

you feel really good yeah i love it and i think sometimes it's so it's so challenging that you have to just focus on what you're doing don't you yeah as your muscles are shaking and you yeah just it's like um really mindful um what's that uh twister yeah if you're like put your left foot here and your right hand here and you're like okay i can't worry about anything else right now Yeah, it just draws you in, isn't it? It's so good. I've rediscovered it recently as well, so that really resonates with me. But thank you so much for your time, Dana, Natasha. Thank you for encouraging and equipping us parents and our kids as well. It's great to know that you're there and you're having these conversations and you're starting them and you're

helping parents have them as well. So thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for listening. Please do take a moment to subscribe, rate and review as it really helps get these words out to benefit more juggling parents like us. And head to annamartha.com to find my resources on everything from health anxiety to people pleasing, starting at only 20 pounds. And finally, don't forget to pre-order my new book, Raising a Happier Mother, How to Find Balance, Feel Good, and see your children flourish as a result. I can't wait for you to have that. Take care and we'll chat soon. Thank you.