The Therapy Edit - One Thing With Ruby Warrington on the stubbornly taboo topic of women without kids

Episode Date: May 12, 2023

This week, Anna is joined by editor, author, book doula and creator of the term 'sober curious', Ruby Warrington. In this episode of The Therapy Edit, they discuss Ruby's One Thing: how society must turn the tables on their approach towards women without kids.Foregoing motherhood has traditionally marked a woman as "other." With no official place setting for her in our society, she has hovered on the sidelines: the quirky girl, the neurotic career obsessive, the "eccentric" aunt. Instead of continuing to paint women without kids as sad, self-obsessed, or somehow dysfunctional, what if we saw them as boldly forging a new vision for a fully autonomous womankind? Or as journalist and thought leader Ruby asks, what if being a woman without kids were in fact its own kind of legacy?We hope you find Rubys words insightful.You can find Ruby on Instagram hereOrder Ruby's book 'Women Without Kids' here.Order Ruby's book 'Sober Curious: The Blissful Sleep, Greater Focus, and Deep Connection Awaiting Us All on the Other Side of Alcohol' here.

Hello and welcome to The Therapy Edit with me, psychotherapist's mum of three and author Anna Martha. Every Friday, I invite one guest to tell me the one thing they would most like to share with mums everywhere. So join with me as we hear this dose of wisdom. I hope you enjoy it. Hi, everyone. Welcome to today's guest episode of The Therapy Edit. I've really been looking forward to this one. we are speaking with Ruby Warrington. She is an editor and a speaker. She's the author of three,

but very soon to be four books. And she's a book dealer, which totally intrigued me, someone who guides people through the literary process, which is such a process. And I really could have done with that in the early days. Now, I know Ruby through her work with encouraging us to re-evaluate our relationship to alcohol, which I found really pertinent in my journey over the last couple of years when I've really become increasingly uncomfortable with the mummy wine culture and have made some significant changes in my life. Ruby is the creator of that term that we now use often in our discussion around our relationships with alcohol. The term sober curious and she is also the author of the book by the same name. She also has a podcast and this has over a million

downloads and it is also called Sober Curious, where you can go and really just delve into your relationship with alcohol and hear those different stories there. She also has a new book coming out called Women Without Kids, The Revolutionary Rise of an Unsung Sisterhood, a personal look and an anthropological dig into a stubbornly taboo topic. That is actually out now. It is out now as this episode is out. So hi, Ruby, welcome to the podcast.

How are you today? I'm doing good. Thank you so much for having me. It's so interesting that you use that line about this subject, women without kids, being a stubbornly taboo topic. Because I thought that writing a book called Sober Curious, which was basically encouraging normal social drinkers to perhaps look at their drinking, you know, people who didn't have to get drinking to sort of re-evaluate. I thought that was a taboo. But actually, this subject, women without kids, it seems far harder

for people to talk about or to really kind of like look at close up. And I just think there's so much in it. There's so much in the whole conversation about what it means to be a woman without kids that just, I don't know, people don't really even know how to go there or how to talk about this. Yeah, I think there are often so many questions that come up in people's, in people's minds when they have a friend that hasn't got children. And it might be, you know, is that your choice? Are you on a journey? Have you struggled with fertility? And actually sometimes these questions we don't even ask because there's fear around around that. And I think it's really good to be sensitive and tentative, but there is a whole conversation that is clearly not being had

here. And you're having it. You're saying, let's talk about it. Let's peel out the layer. Let's let's dive in. Let's stop it from being taboo because there are experiences and stories that will be being unheard and voices that, yeah. And you know, it's so interesting. You mentioned there's a lot of fear, am I going to say the wrong thing? If one of your friends hasn't had children, there can be fear around, like, is it going to be painful for me to bring it up? Is it too private to ask this question? And then at the same time, when we have, like, even just this week that we've been recording, Nicola Sturgeon went on loose women and was talking about having had a miscarriage. Now, Nicola is, you know, a woman without kids and has used her time and sort of used her energy

and her output in other ways to have a massive kind of like influential role in society. And so many people were celebrating her for speaking up about having had a miscarriage. And similarly, like when Jennifer Aniston finally kind of like revealed her IVF journey, people were just so grateful to her for sharing it and being honest about it. And I think this shows that we are actually, people do want to have these conversations. They want to talk about this hugely impactful decision or not decision, you know, circumstance, whether or not you can have a child or whether or not you want to have a child. at the absolute heart of our lives as women. It's probably the most important decision that we

could make or have made for us. And I think people do really want to talk about it. And yet there's so much fear and trepidation around bringing it up because it might be too painful. And I think, you know, anybody who's invested in their healing work, in their personal development, will probably get to a place where they realize that actually it's only by looking at the painful stuff, that we can actually start to process it and move beyond it. Otherwise, we're just going to keep holding that pain in our bodies and ourselves, and it will keep impacting our lives in kind of unconscious ways. So I think people really are ready to talk about it. And yes, of course, there's like a time and a place to bring things up and a way into these

conversations that's respectful of people, of where people might be at. But I don't, I think, I think shying away from having the conversations ultimately does more damage and causes more separation. Yeah, it gives that sense of shame, almost, and fear. And actually, I know you said about the, you know, sober curious movement being, being a to be one, but that feels so commonplace now in our society. And I, and I think through your book, wouldn't it be amazing if, you know, down the line, this isn't, this doesn't feel taboo either. And actually, people will be asking questions. So the women coming up beneath us will be asking questions as, to is this is this the right route for me that perhaps is another way you know i'm not even sure

if i ever questioned whether or not i would like to have children it just felt like this is this is the path this is this is this is the way and i think sometimes we you know it's we can give ourselves a credit of actually digging around a little deeper in some of these big things that feel like they're almost just kind of automatic and accepted that we might desire these things for our lives and how it's okay if not it's absolutely and i think there are i mean i think we're seeing it in the number of people so the most recent research on this like is about 10 years old at this point but it's as good as we've got and basically it sort of says that of all the people who don't have children about 10% are childless not by choice they've had

fertility issues and have had a very painful sort of experience of not being able to have the children they want. About 10% are childless by choice. They absolutely determined the new this is not for me and I'm choosing another path. And then that leaves 80% of people who don't have children who are childless by circumstance who thought that they probably would have children, whether it's because it's something they actively wanted or whether it's because that's sort of just what's expected. But circumstances have meant that it hasn't happened for them. This could be due to their relationship status. It could be due to financial issues. It could be due to, you know, having a passion for a certain career path that has meant that they've needed

to stay engaged in their career at a level that has meant they haven't been able to focus on having kids, et cetera, et cetera. So many different kind of circumstances. But for all of those 80%, I think as much as we can say, yes, I'm childless by circumstance because this, this, this, there is also the fact that you're probably not prioritising having a child. If you wanted to have a child and it was the thing you absolutely wanted to do with your life, then it would be easier to prioritize that over following a certain career path, living in a certain expensive city where you're going to do better in your career, or there'll be more opportunities, for example.

you know, choosing a good enough partner rather than kind of really holding out for like, this is the absolute right partner for me, you know? And so I think that for that 80%, there is some questioning of, is this absolutely what I want for my life? Or are there other things that are more or equally important to me? And I think it's very painful actually to be in that. It can be very painful to be in that questioning place to not know, do I want this? Don't I want this, is this really that important to me? Is this thing more important to me? And I think that the more we can openly just talk about that inner turmoil, the questions that we have, the choices that are available to us, the regrets that we might have, the more we can empower people to feel

confident about the choices they're making, whether those choices ultimately lead to them being parents or not, you know? So yeah, this book is speaking to, I mean, it's speaking to anybody who identifies as a woman without kids, regardless of where they fall on what I've turned the motherhood spectrum. You know, this is something I brought from my sober curious kind of take or perspective, I suppose. I was sort of thinking about how we have this, we have had this very binary idea around motherhood.

You're either a mother or a non-mother. And if you're a mother, you have done the right thing. You are legitimately a real woman. you have tipped the right boxes, you will not have any regrets, your life will be fulfilled, your children will complete you, almost. And if you're a non-mother, something has gone wrong. You're sad, dysfunctional, selfish, don't know your own mind, and not with the procreative program. And yet, actually, I think that most people probably exist somewhere in between those to extremes, even the mothers who feel the most fulfilled and most secure and certain that

this is my path will have moments of doubt, we'll have private quiet moments of, did I do the right thing? Why did I sign up for this? Did I really want this? You know, and so I'm speaking even to those moms who sometimes feel that and think, God, how awful. I shouldn't be feeling like that. This is everything I ever wanted for myself. How dare I, you know, how dare I want. other things for myself as well as motherhood. Well, actually, thankfully, we've been raised at a time and in a culture where we have been encouraged to want other things for ourselves. So it's perfectly natural to question whether motherhood is right for you, you know, wherever you fall on the motherhood spectrum. I love this way of looking at it. It just makes it a little less black and white,

but also draws our attention to the fact that there's a, you know, we need more insight, I think, as a mum just to have that insight into some of the people that have chosen a different path or don't feel like they've had the choice and how might I remove some of the barriers perhaps that stop me from reaching out or connecting or some of those assumptions that might be around or they don't want to hear about, you know, this friend doesn't want to hear about the boring parts of my life or the challenges that I'm going through with my kids and just to, yeah, think a little bit more about some of those dynamics. And I'd love to hear of the back of this what the one thing you would love to share with the motherhood community would be.

Well, I think something that I've been thinking about this, and I think there's this perception that once one of you has kids, it's sort of the end of the friendship as you know it, or as we know it, you know, you've maybe been best friends since school or best friends since college or your best work buddies. When one of you has kids, is this the end of the friendship? And it can sometimes feel that way, you know? We kind of like bond with people over our shared experiences, right? And so becoming a mother is obviously a whole new world of experience that whoever is the non-mother is not going to have any reference points for. And I sort of feel, like, yes, there can be a sort of a separation or a reorganization of the friendship,

I suppose, but it doesn't have to mean the end of the friendship. You know, that's something that I've really come out of this book with for myself and something that I really hope readers get from the book is like, we have this real kind of false divide that I kind of set up a bit earlier between like mothers and non-mothers, almost seeing ourselves as living completely, living in completely alternate realities. And I'm sure. sure as a mum that can sometimes feel that way, like you've been swept off into kind of like mum land and everything is now about being a mom and your kids, particularly in the early years when the kids really do need you to be much more hands on. And it's also new, you know, I can imagine

it's very kind of consuming. But one thing I got in my research was speaking to moms and mum friends about what they saw as my kind of role as a non-mother in their lives. Like what was the value of maintaining a connection with someone like me who doesn't have. kids. And what I heard a lot was, I really love hanging out with you because I can forget about being a mom for a while, you know, I really like having the opportunity to kind of like touch back, touch base with the woman I am without my kids. I don't want my whole identity to now be so-and-so's mom. You know, I still want to be Anna. I'm still Anna and I still have Anna's interests and hopes and desires and dreams and spending time with my non-mom friends means I get to kind of

touch base with that part of me and then kind of like go back into mum mode. And I think as well for women who don't have kids, being included in whatever way, shape or form in our mom friends' lives is so comforting and nourishing, especially if, you know, we did want to have children and we sort of wanted to have that kind of warm family, like to create a sense of family for women. without kids, like our found family, our friendships are so, so important. And to feel left out or cut out, potentially, as you said, around fear of like, oh, I don't want to, you know, if this person's had challenges with fertility, for example, I don't want to rub my kids in their

face kind of thing. You know, I don't want to upset them or it might be too much for it. It might be triggering for them. And maybe it will be sometimes if it's very fresh, the pain of not being able to have a child, for example, in that kind of situation. So again, and thinking about like what would this, what are our needs in this kind of like interaction and how can we just be conscious of where each other are at, but to not, to not shut women without kids out to invite us in, in whatever ways, feels right, you know, and respectful. Yeah, because there are so many stories. I mean, we all tell ourselves stories, don't we, of the assumptions that we have made over how someone might perceive something

or, oh, that person, no, they wouldn't want to be invited to my kids party. Oh, they wouldn't want to, you know, and actually, if we're not even putting it out there, we're not even extending that opportunity, we're kind of halting it right there, aren't we? We're limiting that relationship. And I think also, as you were speaking, I was reflecting on the kind of the, the martyr mother that I do so much work, especially when I'm working one to one with people, this kind of belief that many of us have perhaps been brought up with that to love, you have to give yourself away to your children until you've got nothing left. And a lot of my work is around

actually really just reclaiming yourself and your identity and your likes. And that would definitely include those relationships outside of, you know, those little kind of tight-knit motherhood circles, because as soon as we start allowing ourselves to know that we are so much more than a mother, that invites us then to maybe re-engage with people a little bit more outside of those circles and to broaden our kind of world view and our, and challenge some of those stories that we tell ourselves that perhaps aren't even true. We need to give them an opportunity to be challenged. Exactly. And I think, yeah, there's a couple of things there that you stood out to me. One, it doesn't make you a bad mother not to want to be a mother 100% of

the time. It doesn't make you a bad mother to want time away from your children, to want a break from motherhood, to want to escape back into your quote-unquote old life. You know, I managed to lure a mutual friend of ours who was a relatively new mom at the time. I managed to lure her away for two nights in Abitha. It was going to be three. She narrowed it down to two. She's like, I don't think I could do more than two nights. And she expressed while we were there that she was so, it just felt so good just to have a moment to breathe and to remember who she is beyond being a mom. And yeah, by the end of day three, like as we were traveling back, she was really aching, aching to get back to her kids, but just to have that breather and that kind of moment of like,

and of course, as her non-mom friend, I can be the one that encourages that and sort of invites her into that, you know? And again, you said something as well about assumptions. Oh, God, we can make it's so, it can be so damaging to make assumptions about what people need and what people feel, even if we think that we're kind of like doing the most respectful, most sort of empathetic thing. Until we actually ask somebody, we have no idea how they feel. I'm throwing a party for my two-year-old. Would you like to come? I appreciate X, Y, Z, but I'm extending the invite.

And if you say no, no hard feelings, if you say yes, then brilliant, perhaps you could bring this and definitely don't feel like you have to stay for the whole day. But I actually have the conversation. That is an example of inviting somebody into your life, you know, and somebody not feeling excluded versus and you can almost feel the difference in. Oh, they've been going through, they've just been going through a tricky IVF cycle. They might not want to be included. I'm just going to like, I'm just going to leave it. I'm just going to let them be them. It might feel like it's coming from a loving place, but it's so much more loving. Hey, I see what you've been going

through. I love you and I'd love you to be here to celebrate, but I completely appreciate it might be too much. Why don't you let me know, you know? Thank you. I think, yeah, I've, I've absolutely loved, love this chat. And do you know what? I think I know that you said your book is, you know, for those who have chosen or aren't in a situation where they, where they have children, that this is who this book is for. But I honestly think those, for moms as well, reading this book when without kids to really, just to really get this incredibly valuable insight into how we can still stand alongside each other, right? than find ourselves off in different corners of, you know, the room and society and we need

each other. Exactly. So thank you. I have got some quick fire questions for you. What is a high for you at the moment in life? Doing this podcast with you. Oh, thank you, Ruby. It's been really fun. And it's so, as an author, you know, you're sort of working away on this project and it can be years in the making. It's so private and internal. And then actually getting to be out in the world talking to people about it is just really it's it's wonderful so yeah today this podcast with you thank you and as a book do that it really is a birthing isn't it it's a birthing of creative passion and research into the world and what is a low for you at the moment oh a low for me at the moment um you know what this book brought me very close to a lot of like a darker sort of

of reasons for me not having kids. And as I'm talking to people about it, that's all sort of surfacing for me, you know? There's a lot about sort of family dysfunction and, yeah, just the really oppressive structural issues that are faced by mothers. And that's painful stuff to be with. And so I've been really present to that. And that's, yeah, tinging my excitement about the launch with quite a lot of sadness and even grief, as you mentioned.

So that's really present for me at the moment too. Yeah. I mean, it's a real, yeah, I think it's a real generous thing to face those things in writing the book because people will benefit from your explorations, as you say, it's not only looking at culture and the anthropological side of it, it's also deeply personal as well. And what's something that makes you feel good? Oh, getting a really great night's sleep. Oh, yes. I'm just never, it never gets old. Like, how? Having a really full deep eight hours uninterrupted sleep,

which is like, oh, God, it's blissful. It's heaven. Heaven. I just, sleep is just one of the most important commodities in life. I swear, just enables you to respond so much more intentionally, less reactively. Oh, my whole body just feels, we slept well last night. That's why I'm like, oh. I slept well, I slept well last night.

And I mean, honestly, my heart goes out to moms who's sleep is compromised. for so many years in the early years and it's just wow yeah hats off to actually getting through the day with crappy night's sleep dragging yourself through well I've got an extra spring in my step today like you well thank you so much and I encourage people to go and find you on Instagram to go and just you know definitely explore your work around the sober curious movement and that incredible kind of just revolutionary thing that you just kicked off getting people to question their relationship with alcohol and Yeah, grab a copy of the book, learn. Let's gather together as a sisterhood of women.

So thank you, Ruby. Thank you, Anna. Thank you so much for listening. Please do take a moment to subscribe, rate and review as it really helps get these words out to benefit more juggling parents like us. And head to anamatha.com to find my resources on everything from health anxiety to people pleasing, starting at only 20 pounds. Finally, don't forget to pre-order my new book, Raising a Happier Mother, How to Find Balance, Feel Good and See Your Children Flourish as a result. I can't wait for you to have that. Take care and we'll chat soon.