The Therapy Edit - One Thing with Stacy Heale on how to talk to our children about loss

Episode Date: August 19, 2022

In this episode Anna chats to Stacey Heale about how to talk about and show all the hard emotions, grief included. Stacey's partner Greg died of cancer last year and she speaks openly about her experiences of death and grief talks and writes openly about the topic and how we can prepare for the emotions that grief will throw at us all at some point.You can follow Stacey on Instagram @stacey_heale

Hello and welcome to The Therapy Edit with me, psychotherapist's mum of three and author Anna Martha. Every Friday, I invite one guest to tell me the one thing they would most like to share with mums everywhere. So join with me as we hear this dose of wisdom. I hope you enjoy it. Hello and welcome to today's guest episode of The Therapy Edit. And today I have with me at Stacey Heel. Stacey is on the gram. I follow her because I love the way she talks so openly about something that has touched many of our lives, which is grief.

We find it hard to navigate. It can scare us when our friends are going through it because we might worry about saying the wrong thing. And she just talks about, she talks so honestly about her experience of grief. Her husband, Greg, was diagnosed with stage for bowel cancer back in the same. 2016 when he was only 39 and he died five years later in 2021. So Stacey, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us. I love how you, as you say, bring honest conversations about grief, loss and how to live well in the rubble of it all. So thanks for joining me. How are you today? Hi, Anna. Thank you so much for having me. I am good. Currently today, I am good. The sun is shining, which makes a big

difference to my mood, definitely. Yeah, and today, it's, you know, at the moment, things are up and down, definitely, but today is a good day, which I will take with both hands. I love that. It's about, you know, sometimes it's a bad moment, sometimes it's a bad day, but you know that that just changes and not to, maybe not to overthink it and try and do too much. about it. So do you find that you just kind of take it, take those good days, bad days, good moments, bad moments. Do you know what? You have to. I think with such a big seismic life event, like your husband dying and having two grieving children as well, as well as grieving yourself, it is, I think the word roller coaster is quite often bandied around for lots of different

topics but it is it very much is that kind of that that that high and that low that's that's continuous and I think that I found that on those very very low days or moments when you feel like you're at the top of the roller coaster like literally like about to drop that kind of feeling in the pit of your stomach the only thing to do in those times is is just hold on literally just grit your teeth and hold on and then when you do have those easier moments is just to breathe into them really and enjoy them because you know I suppose either way the good and the bad days they change so yeah enjoy the good ones while you've got them because they will change and just hold on hold tight with the bad

ones because that will change too yeah and that's such a lesson that's such a lesson for life isn't it and oh absolutely yeah it's the hot for life and there there is no one that will not be touched or has not been touched by grief at some point, at some point in our lives. So this is going to resonate. It's going to resonate for everyone. It's, yeah, it's, and it is interesting about grief. And it's only with, you know, I've experienced grief in my life, but nothing as, um, as important as Greg's death. And it's made me realize that of how insane it is that we don't talk about grief more. Because if we're lucky, we will live a long and healthy life

and if we have loved we will lose multiple people so it's not just as much as I would love to feel like this is my one time only this is my like my big thing there will be there will be other big briefs and I think it does us all a really big disservice when we we don't know how to talk about it we don't know how to deal with it within ourselves we don't know how to support friends and family who are going through it and and that that creates this void where like you said in the intro there's people don't know what to say so they don't say anything which which causes an even bigger void between people and leaves

people feeling really alone and quite ashamed of thinking i should be i should be okay i should be getting on. I can't let people see how I feel about this. And that whole shame spiral just kind of goes on and on and on, doesn't it? It does. It does. I remember, you know, as you were talking, I was remembering this moment. So my sister, many people know my sister had brain tumour and she died when I was 10. And I remember us walking down the road as a family in our local town and friends of ours are crossing the road away from us. And it, you know, it's the fear, isn't it? It's the fear of saying the wrong thing.

It's the fear of then sometimes choosing them to say nothing at all. And it's uncomfortable and it's hard and it's sad. And actually we give ourselves a gift somehow and we allow ourselves to be with it and look at it and not be terrified of it. Because it is, it is, it's huge. and it can be scary and that's what you do in your work is basically yeah just encourage those conversations and start stripping away some of that that shame and fear along with it yeah

yeah and i i hope that it connects with people who have have experienced grief but also that maybe there are some uh takeaways for people who haven't yet experienced grief because a very harsh reality is that it is coming for you if you haven't felt it yet. Be thankful, but it will be coming. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a harsh reality. And it's one that I think many of us spend a lot of a lot of time in our lives trying to not think about and avoid thinking about. And sometimes, you know, even having gone through grief and loss traumatically as a child, you know I've I had a friend who lost a baby and even then I thought oh my goodness I don't know what to say and actually just saying to her I don't know what say I wish so much that I could say something and it would be the right thing

and I think you know it's just coming to people with your your your desire to get you and saying that I don't know I care and yeah I absolutely agree I you would think considering the the the kind of kind of loss that I've experienced and also making a career out of writing about grief that I would know what to say. But even recently, there's been some diagnosis in my friend group. One of my really good friends is currently going through IVF and I've really had to think about what to say because I care so deeply and I'm so aware that I don't want to say the wrong thing. I want to say something uplifting, but sensitive. And I'm like, I've got to get it right. But then I thought, no, I've just got to be human about it and just say. And do you

know what the best thing to say is? Wow, this is fucking hard, isn't it? Yeah. This is hard. I see how hard this is for you and I'm with you. I'm just, you know, whatever is happening, I'm just with you. Yeah. It's that being a long side. That's all you need. That's all you need. That's all you to say is that I'm just a lot yeah I'm along for this ride on this awful roller coaster with you yeah yeah and I think as we before we click record you were saying about you know how in our culture there's so much that can be fixed you know fix this upgrade that replace that do it now do it tomorrow get it you know next day delivery but when it comes to grief we can't fix it for that person we can't make it better we can just be there and not to underestimate

the value of just being there alongside them. And also for a more prolonged amount of time, I would say, because I think in that aftermath, I think people really understand, maybe not the intricacies of grief, but that people will be grieving. But I think it's, you know, in those initial months, I don't know how you felt with your sister,

but there's shock. There is so much shock, even if you know it's coming and we're actually just coming up to nearly a year since Greg died, which is absolutely unfathomable to me because it feels like it was two weeks ago. And so now people might get the impression

that we're all okay, that we're fine, but actually what's happening is that the grief, that the initial shock is starting to wear off and the reality of what's actually happened to us and our family and the implications for the girls, it's really starting to hit home.

So I think it is understanding. Like you said, it's not this, oh, get the first year out of the way and you'll be fine. It's that actually that's when it kicks in. That's when you do need to say, oh, do you know what? I was thinking about Greg the other day and I was remembering this story about him

and I just wanted to see, how do you feel now? How do you feel today? How have things changed for you? And just realizing, yeah, it's not this. there's not this cut-off point. It's really, it's a lifelong, it's a lifelong thing. I will be, you know, I will be sad forever that Greg died. There will never not be a time, whatever happens in my life,

there will never not be a time when I will not be sad that Greg died. And you with your sister, that, you know, whatever happens as you go forward as, you know, with your family, do you build your own life? that will never not be there. And I suppose it's people understanding that you just build your life around it, but it doesn't, it doesn't go. And that's what you say about living well in the rubble. Like you will always be in the rubble.

There will always be the rubble of that grief. It's an integration in your life. You build your life upon it and around it. And yeah, that's a really helpful, kind of tangible tool for people. I'm sure it will prompt some text messages and some phone calls actually after. to listen to this of I hope so I hope so

and it really ties in I think you know with your one thing that you're going to bring to us today so Stacey what is the one thing that you would love to share with with all mums my one thing

comes from comes from like the essence of loss I suppose and that the hardest thing for me with grief has been how to parent my children, how to be a mother to grieving children whilst I'm grieving myself. It's an enormous task that I cannot even begin to think that I get right. It's as all motherhood is, it's trial and error and it's trying things that don't work, trying to make house.

My one thing is to show all of the difficult emotions within yourself to your children, to show them that they are all acceptable and needed and valid. So for me, I've done lots of research with charities like Winston's Wish, who deals with childhood bereavement. And they talk about giving children the space to fill all of their feelings. But obviously, as children, they don't have the right knowledge or the right ways of not right, but the ways of expressing how they feel. So they might feel sad, but it comes out as anger or it comes out as aggression

towards others. So my, for example, my youngest daughter, I think regressed probably about three years when Greg died. She became very, very toddler-esque and would have big blow-ups about things like the colour of plates again. I thought we were past that. She's six. But that kind of emerged. And I had to really show, not just say to her, it's okay to feel angry. Because we can say things to our children, but really they need to see it. They need to see that in me. So I have made sure that I've said to them, if I'm feeling just angry and frustrated, I will, I will show that to them and offer a space to them to say, what do you feel angry about? How does that show up for you? and because traditionally anger is not a very tolerated emotion in girls and women

and I want to show them that actually anger is a transient emotion but it is valid and we have we have routines now where if we're feeling angry we've got special toys and pillows that we will just go and beat we've got sticks that we will beat them with And I've even said to them at night, because nighttime seems to be when all there, all the emotion comes out in children, isn't it? And when we're going to bed, I'll say to them, right, if you're feeling upset or stressed, in this room, we're allowed to swear. Only for tonight, we can say whatever we want, which they think is like, it's like the biggest treat on a firm. But it's this, it's about saying, I'm feeling this. you to see that I'm feeling this. And it's okay that you feel that as well. And another one is a part of

that is crying as well. I felt very, very nervous, I would say, to start with of crying in front of the girls. It was always something that, you know, I went to the bathroom to do. I would do in the shower. I'd do in the car of, I don't want them to see I'm upset because it might, it might shake them. They don't want to see me upset. I've got to be strong for them. But actually, what that did was show them that if they cried, that was possibly a problem. And I think people are very keen. I have noticed this, that people are very quick to try to stop children crying. Even in grief, their dad has died. Let them cry. Because it's really, really sad. And they need to get that out. The last thing I need my children to do is hold that stuff inside

and watch how that comes out probably when they're a teenager and that will explode out of them. So I realised that really I needed to sit down and cry with them or if I was crying about something particular that happened, they would say, oh, mum, are you okay? And I'd be like, oh, do you know what? I'm just missing dad. I was just thinking about dad. And I miss him so much. And, yeah, just that to be the norm that I will tell them how I'm feeling and also offer some kind of resolution to it to say, like, you can cry, you can feel sad, you can feel angry. And then it goes. They can see that entire cycle of emotion in me.

They can see that it's okay to do that. and then it ends. It's not something that's so overwhelming that they will be consumed by it. I don't know if this is going to work out because I'm literally hot footing it. I'm literally learning on the job. But yeah, and I think that's probably important, not just in grief, but in all parenting. Yeah. Yeah, that's my one thing. And you've got a project in the background going on, haven't you, have a book, and it's not got a title yet, and it's not kind of fully formed yet, but I'm going to be looking out for that. And I just know that it is going to be such a powerful and valued resource for people. I hope so. I will send you a copy when it's done.

So thank you so much. And to finish off, I ask some quickfire questions. Okay, are you ready? What is a motherhood high for you? hi oh my do you know what currently it would be my children eating anything that i make them for dinner without without argument just it's it's endless and it is daily i would feel that i had won the game of life dancing around a kitchen and what is a motherhood low for you oh god there's a lot I would say suffering probably when I had my second daughter bay, I suffered from postnatal depression that I just tried to power through. I thought that I could just get through it and I had a moment where I had to take,

she wouldn't stop crying and I took her out for a walk in the push chair in the rain. And it was so terrible that I sat on the pavement and cried. and some school children who were just kicking out of school I heard them walk past and say to each other do you think she's having a nervous breakdown I was thinking yes yes I am yes this is what it looks like yeah

with a screaming child here this is what that looks like relatable relatable so Stacey what's one thing that makes you feel good Oh um well you just mentioned it dancing in the kitchen that's um that's one of my absolute favorite go-toes one of the things i did this morning when we were just um gearing up to leave the house on the school run tensions were high it was all about a lip gloss that they were fighting over whose was whose and i deflated the entire situation with a dance off i love it i love it how diffusing I think it was more just me. Well, it was basically me busting out some really quite aggressive moves

and then just knocked out of their anger by just the horror of what, like the embarrassment of like, what is mum doing? But it worked. It's living a best life. Exactly. That's what you're doing in the kitchen to the music.

That's brilliant. It's tactic I'm going to employ. And finally, how would you describe motherhood in three words? um pick your battles oh oh i like that sentence and true brilliant is well thank you for joining me thank you so much the wisdom and also some really amazing tips there i think for people to to hold on to and to utilize i loved yeah i loved i loved everything that you said and i think you're right we all we all need it or we're going to need it and that's just it's a fact you know

it it might feel like a scary fact but it is a fact of being being a human. So, so thank you for all you do to help people realize that they're not alone in that. So thank you, Stacey. And I look forward to your book. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to today's episode of The Therapy Edit. If you enjoyed it, please do share, subscribe or review because it makes a massive difference to how many people it can reach. You can find more from me on Instagram at Anna Martha. You might like to Check out my three books, Mind Over Mother, Know Your Worth, and my new book, The Little Book of Calm for new mums, grounding words for the highs, the lows and the moments in between. It's a little book you don't need to read it from front to back.

You just pick whatever emotion resonates to find a mantra, a tip and some supportive words to bring comfort and clarity. You can also find all my resources, guides and videos, all with the sole focus of supporting your emotional and mental well-being as a mum. They are all 12 pounds and you can find them on anamatha.com. I look forward to speaking with you soon.