The Therapy Edit - One Thing with That Darn Chat on dividing unseen labour at Christmas

Episode Date: December 2, 2022

In this guest episode of The Therapy Edit Anna chats with Fair Play Life Facilitator, Laura Danger about the Christmas motherload and why now is the time to address any inequalities in who does and receives what within a family partnership. Laura is a certified facilitator of the Fair Play way of thinking where the time of both parents or care givers in a relationship is given equal value; regardless of whether it's paid or unpaid.Laura is a big believer that domsetic labour is labour and should be recognised as such. She's a huge sensation on TikTok at ThatDarnChat and you can follow her on instagram at @thatdarnchatYou can also visit her website and find out more about her work at www.thatdarnchat.com

Hello and welcome to The Therapy Edit with me, psychotherapist's mum of three and author Anna Martha. Every Friday, I invite one guest to tell me the one thing they would most like to share with mums everywhere. So join with me as we hear this dose of wisdom. I hope you enjoy it. Hi, everyone. Welcome to a guest episode of The Therapy Edit. Today, I've got a brilliant episode lined up for you with. Laura, Danger of that darn chat talking and addressing the big topics in our family lives

behind closed doors and relationships around kind of domestic labour and resentment and those conversations that often are had without words and often evoke kind of frustration and hurt. And we're going to delve in. And I'm so excited to be talking about that with Laura. So she, Laura's a life coach, Laura Danger, a life coach, an educator, a community advocate and a certified fair play facilitator. And on her website, I pick this out because it's just so powerful. She has written, you deserve to feel empowered in your role and you deserve permission to be more than your roles. I reject the social expectation that success should be measured in dollars and cents. I reject the idea that parenthood requires martyrdom. We can live the values

we want to see in the world. All time is created equally. Domestic labor. It is. is labor. So powerful, Laura. I'm excited to have you here. How are you today? I'm great. I'm really excited to be here too. I really appreciate the platform and the time to connect. Well, thank you. Thank you for joining. I think the sentence in that, in the bit that you'd written there was around kind of rejecting the idea that parenthood requires martyrdom. I think that's going to be ringing in my ears and often so kind of systemic and deeply set. And just amazing to just draw attention to that and challenge it in ourselves. And yeah, so thank you for joining us.

And Laura, the question that we ask, our guest here, if you could share one thing with all the moms, what would that one thing be? Okay. So my thought is the holidays are a huge deal. And when I started talking on TikTok and Instagram, one of these themes, that I saw recurring around the holidays is the idea that a lot of moms wake up in the Christmas morning or in holiday and they don't have any gifts. No one has thought to fill her stocking. No one has thought to pick something out that's thoughtful. You know, sometimes they get

like a robe or something like that. Like it's something, there's the Saturday Night Live skit where all the moms just get a robe. Like, of course, no one has any idea what mom like. or she wraps her own presence. And so something I, the advice that I give often is to, you know, set the stage ahead of time and actually have these clear conversations with your partner, with your family, that includes extended family, about what makes your holiday time special. And, you know, this isn't just Christmas or whatever wintertime, you know, you know, where I am, wintertime holidays that you celebrate, but this is any.

It could be, you know, Halloween for us is coming up. What does it or the, we do Easter, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't matter what you're talking about. But what I like to ask is, what do you remember from when you were a kid? What were your fondest memories? What were memories that, things you would like to avoid? Maybe. Like, oh, boy.

really hated having to do this or the cranberry jam. I just really like I don't want it on my plate. What are the things that make it special to you and talk to your family? And, you know, we we head into these holiday seasons assuming that we know what our partners will find special without ever actually asking them. And it's a way of elevating the holidays and You know, I like to say it's like trimming the fat, like get rid of the things that you feel obligated to do and actually prioritize the things that make it special. And sometimes that means asking up front in maybe July, August, September, October and saying, I want you to look around the house, notice the things I like and pick like 10 things and put them in my stocking because it feels really special to know that you notice. me. And then it gives them time to really, instead of saying, here's the thing, a lot of times

we hear this, just tell me what you want, I'll buy it, make me a list, I'll buy it. And that's not, at least for me, that's not what the holidays are for. My birthday, I'd rather have a card you think is going to make me laugh than like an iPhone. I can, we have a joint bank account. I can buy an iPhone. Yeah. Yeah. So working on those assumptions. I love that. And also just not assuming that because perhaps there's a certain event in the calendar that normally you would just let slip by because

it doesn't matter to you, just choosing not to just jump to that assumption that it doesn't matter to your partner either. Exactly. It is those conversations, isn't it? We just have to, I have this really pertinent memory and this is probably about six, seven years ago now. And we were going to the theatre and it was Christmas Eve. And it was all, you know, everyone was excited. I think my son was really excited. And my husband ran back to the car to get a coat. And he came back and he looked really sad. I said, what, like, what's happened? And he said, well, I just saw this mom. She was loading the car with the bags and she just looked really, really grumpy and upset. And I said, you know, can I help you with anything? Brilliant. Lovely. But what did she turn

around and said, I just can't wait for it to be over. And he said, it was just so sad, Anna. She couldn't wait for Christmas to be over because she was so stressed. And I said, I understand. What? I understand where, you know, he, he found it sad. I found it. I was like, I see her. I get that. And I think it sometimes the resentment can come when we don't feel seen and all the list that we've got in our heads and all the meaning that we might. be applying to things or the meaning that we're trying to apply for our family and it can just feel like a lot. So I think having the conversation, so these things are known and seen. It's not such a secret, kind of behind the scenes. Exactly. Exactly. And like you said,

you know, it can feel overwhelming. You can build resentment when it feels like, like why isn't why isn't my partner prioritizing this? Shouldn't they know that this is really important to me? They see how much effort I'm putting into it. But if you're not clear about why, you can be telling yourself stories. And I say that like, we put a lot of energy into making a nice meal. But at the end of the day, I don't actually care about the meal. Like I was doing that out of obligation from social expectations. And so when we finally had the conversation, why are we making this huge meal? I would rather go and get takeout on these days so that I can just enjoy each other.

I don't want to cook. So it was stressing me out. I hated it. So then when I finally had a chance to talk it through, that was like a way. off my back. Yeah. Yeah. So talk about it. Yeah. And you might assume that just because you know someone very well and they know you well, they know what you're carrying. You know, I could be sat in the safer watching a program. At least my husband might think that I'm watching the program, but going through my mind are a million things that I need to organize the next day for the

children. And that's unseen. And I, you know, 10 minutes before I might have sat there watching the program. So I can't expect him to to see that. Yes. And it is, yeah, it's having those conversations, which is about intentionality, isn't it? And I think that sometimes is a hard thing. Explicit, explicit communication. It's not even just around the expectations, but, and it might not mean that when you have these conversations, your partner takes on more or you, you know, it might not even change the dynamic. Like you said, it's about making those invisible tasks visible and actually saying, here's what I'm putting into it. Here's why. Your spouse might have said, like, why is she so stressed or I don't understand. I feel really

sad for that woman. But I feel like when I grew up, Christmas just happened. It was like all of the plans were made and I could I would just go to the store with my mom and I'd pick stuff out for all of the family members and there were presents on Christmas morning and there were plans made and there were dresses bought and all of these things the house mud like cookies like somebody did that it doesn't just happen somebody and when you talk about the fair play method which is what I use and the principles of that I carry through what I talk about online is yeah, you decide who is going to anticipate the need. You never, how did we come to this place where I'm the one noticing how to make Christmas magic?

And when my husband and I started talking about this, we started using the fair play method a couple of years ago. And like just last year, we finally sat down and dug in. into the holidays. And now he does gifts. I'm totally okay. Like I can buy some gifts if I want, but he's the gift guy because he's a sucker. He'll buy the kids like a $100 huge that he loves it.

But also both of us were responsible for bringing like some sort of Christmas magic. And so he bought walkie-talkies and like I've got like a recorded Santa on his phone and would like go out and get something in the garage. and then would have Santa call the walkie-talkie. And so my kids would be like, what? Oh, my gosh, Santa's there. And my husband would come in and be like, did I miss Santa? And so without having the opportunity to talk about that,

I don't think he would have, like, felt responsible or empowered to come up with all of these like fun he it's like his thing now and it's really special for him to just do that and it's like his superpower he's so good at those creative things so when you talk about them it also like gives you space to come up with awesome ideas yeah yeah that's so i love that taking ownership of and it's it's really rewarding as well it can be really rewarding i think when you do feel like you've got ownership of something and you can put your spin on it but what happens for those who feel that their partners would not be willing to have these conversations, or perhaps there's a lot of kind of layers of hurt and resentment, or maybe, you know, I often think the traditions are only

really serving us if they're still serving us. You know, but what if actually one tradition is just utterly exhausting you and you do not enjoy it and you want to get rid, but that's not going to go down well. You know, what about, yeah, what about when we face kind of hurdles in in these conversations that we might really want to have, but the other person, not so, not so much? I would say something I've learned is that when you don't ask, you're saying no. you're your refuse when you refuse to have the conversation it's an automatic no and that is where resentment lives so it's that part um you know there's like the cycle of boundary breaking and it's rumination resentment and then often rage or you know you have a fight but when you sit

in that rumination, like, oh, I know he's just going to say this. I know she's just going to say this. It's going to be way harder to have this conversation. I'd just rather not fight about it. You're fighting with yourself. So might as well find a way to talk about it. Yeah, that's so true. So it's suspending, it's suspending again, that assumption that they might respond in a certain way. And it's an opportunity, isn't it? I mean, if we, is in a relationship, if you're both wanting to work for that common goal of having good communication and, you know, a relationship that is thriving, then that does mean having some of these difficult conversations. Right. It's investment in the future. Yeah, absolutely. So it's just thinking how,

what conversation might I need to have around Christmas coming up? You know, how am I feeling about it? What, what am I excited about? What feels too heavy? What, what actually really puts a dampener on it? And how might we talk about that in a way that doesn't seem attacking or argumentative? Because I think sometimes, especially if there's a dynamic that's gone on for a while, it's very easy to perceive everything as an attack. You know, well, you're saying that I'm doing it wrong. You're saying that I'm not doing enough. And actually, if we can just come at that and say, we need to address this for our family so that we can find a way. for this to be a really lovely and enjoyable time rather than what it might be sometimes,

which is heavy and potentially a bit fraught. Yeah, and to your point, I do hear this a lot, which is, you know, I don't want to do it your way. I don't want to sit down and just hear you tell me how you want to do the holidays. And that's the important piece of this is it's not about telling one person what to do. it's saying what what is your holiday magic what does what feels amazing to you and then who can take ownership of what and what can we leave behind it's a conversation it's not it's not one person directing the other yeah and it's an invitation isn't it it's yeah what's what's what's your

magic you know what's meaningful to you and that isn't that isn't kind of confrontational isn't it's it's not attacking. It's actually inquisitive and it's showing a willingness that you're wanting to get creative with Christmas around what makes your spouse happy, what makes them feel joy at that time. Yes, exactly. That's brilliant. Well, I love that. So it's an encouragement to think about what those things might be, to approach that conversation, not to just play out in your mind beforehand, assuming that you know how it's going to end up, to use those, you know, to use the we instead of the you can be really helpful as well, can't it? It can be quite disarming because I think sometimes it's easy to forget that you're on the same team. Yeah. We're on, we're on this

team together. It's our, you know, it's our family. It's our Christmas and it's the collective, isn't it? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Well, that's so helpful. Thank you, Laura. I have got some quick-fire questions for you. You didn't want me to let you know them ahead of time. Some people like to know what are they going to be so they can have a quick thing, but you're coming in, you'll come and clean into this. What is a motherhood high for you? Motherhood high.

Seeing my kids make jokes. I love watching my children's quick-wittedness and humor develop. That's been the best. I love that. Yeah. And what's a motherhood low for you? Here in the States, we have very little support of maternity leave and maternity care. And so I think the first year of really having to balance healing while nurturing my children,

I think that was a low. It's hard for those things to run in parallel, isn't it? when you're you're needing at a time that you're just giving so much. Yes. Yeah. And the space and the rest that you might have needed was probably not, is not easy to find at that time, especially when support is lacking. And round two was much released on round one with my oldest.

It was, I had a little bit more space in time, but the second one, when you have a toddler and an infant, it's a lot. Yeah, space and time is very sparse and hard to come by, isn't it? In that kind of in the thick of that time. And what's one thing that makes you feel good? Walking. I am a huge fan of walking. I have a beautiful, I live in a big city, but I live right by a river,

and it's a beautiful river, and there's lots of wildlife. So I put my headphones in, and they tune out, and I listen to audio books. or music, and I walk for miles and miles. Yeah, such therapy, isn't it? Just to get out, and it's almost hypnotic sometimes, just in the movement. I love that. Flow state. Yes, the flow state.

I'm with you on that. And finally, how would you describe motherhood in three words? Oh, in three words. Oh, boy. motherhood is raw tender and warm and warm warm tender and raw warm tender and raw yes i hear that well thank you so much laura for all that you do in equipping us and just inspiring us to have these conversations that really do just find a way through. I think sometimes those things that feel like we're just coming up against them all the time. So finding ways to really address

those often unspoken dynamics that can fuel so much sense of feeling unheard and unseen. So thank you for that. And people can go and find you. You have a website that darn chat, but you also have Instagram and you've got little bits of pieces in your bio. that people can access and you do one-to-ones and you do, you've got some courses there as well. So that is all there for people to find and benefit from. So thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for having me. It was a great chat.

Thank you for listening to today's episode of The Therapy Edit. If you enjoyed it, please do share, subscribe or review because it makes a massive difference to how many people it can reach. You can find more from me on Instagram at Anna Martha. You might like to check out my three books, Mind Oath and Mother, Know Your Worth, and my new book, The Little Book of Calm for new mums, grounding words for the highs, the lows and the moments in between. It's a little book you don't need to read it from front to back. You just pick whatever emotion resonates to find a mantra, a tip and some supportive words to bring comfort and clarity. You can also find all my resources, guides and videos, all with the sole focus of supporting your emotional and mental well-being as a mum. They are all 12. pounds and you can find them on anamara.com. I look forward to speaking with you soon.