The Therapy Edit - One Thing with The Mumologist on how we can parent ourselves

Episode Date: April 28, 2023

This week, Anna is joined by clinical psychologist, author, speaker and campaigner Dr Emma Svanberg AKA the Mumologist, fresh off the press tour for her new book 'Parenting for Humans'.In this episode of The Therapy Edit, they discuss Emma's One Thing: how we can look after our children when we still, at times, feel like a child ourselves.Consciously or unconsciously, we all carry a small child within us and what we experience in childhood actually shapes and determines our entire approach to life as adults - and to the way we parent.Dr Emma shares some brilliantly practical advice on how we can parent ourselves so that we're better able to deal with those moments in parenting where we feel vulnerable, overwhelmed, like a failure, so that we can bring calm to the situation and respond in a better way to the challenges of raising children.We hope you find Dr Emma's words helpful.You can find Dr Emma Svanberg on Instagram hereOrder Dr Emma's book 'Parenting for Humans: how to parent the child you have, as the person you are' hereShe is also the founder of the Psychology Cooperative - a collective of expert practitioners offering mental health and wellbeing support to parents - and co-founder of the Make Birth Better community.

Hello and welcome to The Therapy Edit with me, psychotherapist's mum of three and author Anna Martha. Every Friday, I invite one guest to tell me the one thing they would most like to share with mums everywhere. So join with me as we hear this dose of wisdom. I hope you enjoy it. Hi, everyone. Welcome to today's guest episode of the Therapy Edit. I have with me today the wonderful doctor. to Emma Spanberg. She's on Instagram as mummologist. She is a clinical psychologist, an author,

speaker and campaigner. And she works predominantly with mums and mums to be. Although she does work with dads and partners too, she campaign to make birth better. Now, this started as a social media campaign, raising awareness of birth trauma and became an amazing community interest company. She has a book, which is out now called Parenting for Humans. I love this subtitle. How to Parent the Child you have as the person you are. So that is out now and absolutely worth a read. So the little write-up for this, I also love, so I'm going to read it out for you. There's always a moment that as a parent when you feel like no matter how hard you're trying, you just can't quite get it right. But the fact is parenting is hard. And once we know this and why, we can forgive ourselves for finding it a

struggle and start to look for the things that make parenting a joy. Just full of hope and tools. just that kind of that invitation to give yourself a little bit of compassion for finding hard things hard. And finally, she is a founder of the Psychology Cooperative. This is a collection of expert practitioners offering mental health and well-being support. Check it out because they're also hoping to offer low and no-cost therapy and resources. So there we go. Dr. Emma Spanberg is wonderful to have you here. How does it feel having all that read out like a little verbal CV. Oh, it's quite a lot, isn't it? That's probably why I'm feeling a bit tired today. Yeah. But yeah, lovely. It's kind of really lovely to sort of have it all bullet pointed like that.

I think about all the things that we've been doing over the past few years. Yeah. And I was asking just so we click record. I said, I found you on a podcast. Do you have a podcast? And you said, oh, no, gosh, not a podcast as well. I think I think you've got enough going on. I think you've got enough. Yeah, but actually, it's sometimes a really great thing to search for someone in podcasts because, you know, you've been on a good few. So if people want to listen to more of your amazing wisdom, because these are so short, then head and find you there as well. But how are you today? I'm good, Anna. It's really lovely to be here. Thank you for having me. I've been talking about the book a lot for the last few weeks. So it's really nice to be here to talk about kind of one very specific aspect of the book, which I think is probably the bit that

I'm most passionate about. So I'm good. I'm a little bit sick of the sound of my own voice at this point. Well, we are not. So, you're welcome to carry on chatting. Do you know, I'm with you on that. I hate listening to my own voice. When I listen to the podcast back,

because I love kind of listening to them before I share them on social media, I always have to listen to it on one and a half speed. So it doesn't quite sound like me. Yes, I've been listening to my audio book because I wanted to just to hear what that sounded like. And it's very slow compared to my usual speaking voice, which is usually a bit too rapid. But yeah, it's a very strange experience. Oh, I haven't done that. Oh, I haven't done the, I haven't listened to my books. That is brave. I think I can, maybe I sit through the whole thing. Yeah. Oh, well done. No, I think it's such a gift to have to have your book out in the

world. So thank you. That must have been, yeah, one huge project. Was it feel like now it's actually out there? It feels really, really lovely. I think like I was saying to you before we started recording, it feels like now that people have started reading it, it can be a conversation. And as you know yourself, when you're writing, you're writing in isolation, you know, sitting in the same chair for long periods of time. And you're very much kind of with your thoughts. And what I'm really enjoying is the fact that people can now ask questions. They can, you know, ask me to expand on certain points. They're giving me feedback about how they're finding it. So having that, you know, I've been really waiting for that opportunity, I think, for people to then have a

discussion about it rather than me just kind of talking about something that I'm interested in. Yeah. And what a powerful thing to be talking to parents as they are rather than, you know, I think so often the focus is on, it is on being better. Yeah, I think this is it. And this is, you know, the book came out of this idea that, and something. that I've seen, and you've talked about this many times as well, you know, the kind of idealisation of particularly for mothers, but parenting in general, this sense that we always have to do better, we always have to do more, we have to be more, and that the way to get there is to look for more tips or strategies or solutions. And I think in many ways over the years,

what I've really seen in my clinic space is just people kind of coming with almost like this extra anxiety of parenting is tough. and then there's all of this other stuff that I should be doing that I'm not. So in some ways, the book really, I wanted the book to be an antidote to that anxiety that actually, once we tune into who we are as people, not just as parents, then the whole idea of parenting becomes so much easier because we understand ourselves and that really helps us to see our child through the lens of who they are, not through the kind of prism of our own experience.

Yeah, what an amazing thing to be able to bring that. clarity to people to start stripping that away so that energy can go into yeah finding ways to make things a little bit smoother as they are rather than putting all of that energy into this ideal this idea of where we should be and I guess all that guilt and self-criticism that comes along with that because we're we're never we're never there so let's work with who we are and how we are and how our kids are now so thank you so much I encourage people to go and grab a copy. I have had the privilege of seeing a PDF copy, but I cannot wait to get my hands on that very soon. But the question that I would love to ask you today, Emma, is if you could

share one thing with all the mums, what would that one thing be? So it was really difficult to think of just one thing, obviously, but for me, it's about how we can look after children when we feel like children ourselves. So those moments that we all have frequently through the day where something touches us so deeply that we feel like we've just come back to being a toddler. You know, our emotions get the better of us and it's almost like we're two children in the same room. So just thinking really about how we can, how we can look after the little kids that we carry within us when we're parents. Oh, that's so, oh, it actually really makes me emotional thinking about this one moment where everything was going on in our house and my husband had to leave

for work to get the train and I stood on the doorstep and I cried as I watched him go down the road and I felt like a child. I felt like, you know, I've got to go back in the house and bring some kind of vague order to the morning so I can get people off to school where they need to be but I wish I had a parent in this moment and sometimes we have to be that parent for ourselves but we need to realise there is that dynamic like we are also children. We are and I think that when we become parents, it brings up all of that stuff from our own childhood experiences that maybe we thought we dealt with, and often we have in some way, but when we're faced with our child with all of their very raw, you know, impulsive, urgent emotions, it brings up that

real depth of the feelings that we had when we were their age or the kind of dynamics that we had with our own parents or caregivers. And, you know, what I often say to clients is, it's not like it just comes up, like it doesn't just arrive in your body. It slaps you in the face. It's like, right, remember this. And it's not, you know, kind of thought through conscious experience a lot of the time. It's something that we feel in our bodies. It's something that we feel very strongly in our emotions. And because parenting is often so urgent and so relentless, we don't really have the time then to process what it is that's going on for us. So we can feel very flawed by our own emotional experience. But also then, because we have so many stories

about how parents should be, how parents should behave, they can add, like you mentioned that before, that kind of guilt, shame, those feelings of, well, I shouldn't be responding like this. So what's wrong with me or, you know, what is it that I'm doing wrong? And we can end up feeling quite broken or like we're failing at this task that we have. What we tend to then do is we sort of push that away because it can feel just too much, right? When you're kind of cooking dinner and you're trying to get kids to school and you're trying to get kids to bed and also doing a million and one other things as every parent is doing to actually pause and look at where did that come from? Why is it that that moment triggered something that felt so fundamental in me? It can just feel

like too much. So in some ways for me, that's a really essential thing that we all have to do as parents to be able to pause, look at ourselves, explore some of these things that are coming up for us. But it is a very hard thing to do because, you know, we don't have a lot of headspace when we're parenting. And it can also be very painful. And I think that's, that's a reality that we have to really acknowledge that looking at these things can bring grief. It can bring feelings of loss. It can feel like actually that's just going to disrupt the status quo. Like, let's just kind of keep on going like we're going because I'm managing just about okay. But actually the benefit of being able to pause and look at what's there means that you can

sort of unpick things that have probably been there for a long time that you've been carrying around for a long time and have been kind of popping up in other ways. And you can almost kind of put them to bed. But it does take a bit of work and it does take a bit of soul searching. And for some people it will also take some tears and some reorganisation of relationships team. Yeah. So, I mean, it might be helpful for people to, to use that little example that I shared of me just kind of crying on the doorstep, seeing my husband disappear off towards the train, you know, feeling just really kind of angry and upset and like that child. So I guess the hard

thing in that moment would have been to ask myself what's going on here. But I guess we could probably do it later down the line, couldn't we, when things had moved on and calmed a little bit perhaps we have some breathing space or some head space. So what would I do? Ask myself, how would I reflect on that in light of what you've just said? Kind of ask myself how I felt. What do I need? What do I need? Right now, what do I need? And I think that, you know, in the moment, we talk about it for our children all the time, right? So if you think about all of the examples that we have access to now about how to help our children with their emotional regulation, You know, that's a really hot topic. We have loads of information about that.

So most people will be quite familiar with the concept that if a child is having a bit of an explosive moment, that in those moments, it's not that productive to try and talk them around. We just need to try and soothe. Often that can be around co-regulation, just using our own bodies, using our own kind of sense of security and safety to help them calm down. and actually for lots of kids kind of trying to talk things through or rationalise in that moment is just impossible because they don't have access to the rational parts of their mind. It's exactly the same for us. You know, when we are in that state of really high stress or we're feeling really distressed,

we don't have access to the parts of our brain that help us to rationalise reason things out. We just need to feel safe. So in those moments, what I would suggest usually is something very physiological, So it's not about thinking, it's just about calming down. You know, like I think you mentioned, you know, you just took a deep breath and you thought, how am I going to go back into this house?

So you do that generally quite naturally, right? Well, we'll take a moment to ground. If we don't do that, that's what means that we're going to end up screaming at the kids or we're going to end up doing something that we really wish that we hadn't in whatever way that looks. But just taking that pause, taking a deep breath, you know, grounding our feet on the floor, telling ourselves some really soothing, compassionate words. You can do this.

It'll be okay. I really like the phrase this isn't an emergency just because it can really speak to that kind of nervous system response of like, oh, this is all awful and I'm never going to be able to do this. Having that compassionate voice to go, it's okay, this isn't an emergency. We'll just help to soothe your system again. That's helpful. I'm going to use that one.

It's not an emergency. It's an easy one to remember and it can really speak to that sense of urgency. But later on, and this is a book that's really important for us, and for our children, it's then about coming back into that and thinking, what, what was that about? You know, why was it that I had that response? What did I need in that moment? What does that say about my own experience? You know, where is there information there about things that maybe still feel very fresh for me that need to be looked at? And it might not be in any way kind of complicated. It might just be actually, I really need, there's a part of me that really just

needs to feel looked after. Yes. Maybe I feel really alone. I felt really abandoned. I felt overwhelmed. So if those are the things that I feel, what do I need to be able to speak to those feelings? And maybe it's very simple, a hot bath,

or speaking to somebody who feels really safe and you know we'll say you're doing a brilliant job and you're doing the best that you can. Or just even I'm here. I might not be there with you physically, but I'm here. I'm thinking of you. You know, having thinking about why it comes up

means that we can think about what we need to reconnect with ourselves again. Yeah. So there's kind of it's almost three steps there, really isn't there? You know, in that moment, just trying to calm that nervous system response with a deep breath or two. And yeah, you're right. I think sometimes that does happen kind of almost instinctively. We recognize that that energy, that anxiety, that stress is kind of building up in our body and that kind of calming, grounding breath, perhaps that we learn in in all of those, you know, pre-labour, whatever it was that we listened to and never realised how useful that would be in parenting. Oh, absolutely.

Like all those hit no birthing scripts and things, yeah. But then later on, not in that moment necessarily trying to entangle that because you might not literally have the capacity and the ability to kind of access that and be that reflective. But later on, just to make sure you're giving yourself a moment to think, what was I feeling? And I think you, you know, hit the nail on the head there.

I think there was feelings of abandonment. which I could probably reflect back on my childhood and work out moments in which I felt emotionally unsafe. And then, yeah, off the back of that, or what might you, how might you honour that, now you know that, how might you parent that child in you that was feeling scared and abandoned? What do you need? Who can you speak to? What might you do that makes you feel nurtured and seen and validated? Yeah, it takes a little moment, doesn't it? Yes. And lots of moments and really important. And I think it's also important to say that it's a very normal part of parenting. You know, this is not something that happens because we've had a really traumatic childhood. We all have experiences where we have felt abandoned as children. We all have experiences where we have felt alone. You know, there are moments of rupture in all relationships. And, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean that it needs to be pathologized. And I think that sometimes people can be a bit scared. if I go back and think about this, what will it mean about, you know, my childhood? Will it change my relationship with my parents or caregivers as they are now?

But it's a very normal part of being a kid, right? There are going to be moments where you don't feel like you've been really heard or listened to or seen. And that might be in your family, it might be in your community, it might be at school. You know, we all have those moments of disconnect and discord. It's more about, you know, as you've talked about many times, you know, what does that leave you with in terms of your beliefs about yourself, about your safety in the world, about your relationships with other people. And, you know, if that's the case, is there stuff there that also needs to be updated? You know, if I hold a belief about myself that, you know, if I'm on my own, I can't

cope, for example, then what do I need to allow myself to see that that is a belief that can be updated? And, you know, you can do a very clear sort of evidence gathering exercise or you're thinking about all of the times that you've coped really well. Or you can just think, yeah, I'm having a really hard time and maybe I just need to be a bit kind to myself about the fact that this is a hard day and it was a hard morning.

And, you know, I don't need to feel overwhelmed by that. I can allow that to be there. Yeah, so really compassionate, but also looking at what, like how we can move forward. So thank you. And I really encourage people to head to your nearest bookshop or online to, get parenting for humans, how to parent the child you have as the person you are, as

Dr. Emma Spanberg, so kindly said that this is just one, you know, amazing part of the book. So it just shows us that there is so much more there for us to delve into. So thank you so much. To finish off, I have a quick fire question. Is that okay? Yeah. What is a motherhood high for you at the moment? I think for me, it's around seeing my children just change, like on a daily basis that I feel like you kind of have these loads and loads of little relationships with different people. You know, you think back to when they were tiny and, you know, they're just like these different people entirely. So it's that, it's the kind of curiosity, I think, of who they are now and who they're going to become. I love that. And what's their motherhood low for you at the

moment? I think just the general kind of lack of space around parenting, which is something that I know lots of people well resonate with. Yeah, it's not much of that around is there. And what's one thing that you do to make you feel good? At the moment, it's rest. I think that we've been through so much with the pandemic, with, you know, for all families, there's been such a lot going on. So really deep rest, like mind and body, switching off, no phone, just be allowing myself to kind of be in silence. That's something that is really helping me to feel restored. Oh, yeah, good for your old nervous system as well. Set you up for those moments of stress that arise that we've just been talking about

when your nervous system is in that slightly healthier, calmer place to begin with. And finally, how would you describe motherhood in three words? Unexpected, joyful, and, oh, what's my third word, going to be ever-changing? Changing, unexpected and joyful. I love them. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Emma. It's been an absolute pleasure and a privilege to chat with you today. Thank you, Anna.

Thank you so much. It's been a joy. Thank you for listening to today's episode of The Therapy Edit. If you enjoyed it, please do share, subscribe or review because it makes a massive difference to how many people it can reach. You can find more from me on Instagram at Anna Martha. You might like to check out my three books, Mind Oath and Mother, Know Your Worth, and my new book, The Little Book of Calm for New Mums,

grounding words for the Highest, the Lest, lows and the moments in between. It's a little book. You don't need to read it from front to back. You just pick whatever emotion resonates to find a mantra, a tip and some supportive words to bring comfort and clarity. You can also find all my resources, guides and videos, all with the sole focus of supporting your emotional and mental well-being as a month. They are all 12 pounds and you can find them on anamatha.com. I look forward to speaking with you soon. Thank you.