The Therapy Edit - One Thing with The Sleep Mums on boundaries that benefit our mental health

Episode Date: April 7, 2023

In this guest episode of The Therapy Edit, Anna is joined by baby sleep expert Sarah Carpenter and parenting journalist Cat Cubie, AKA The Sleep Mums, as they discuss their One Thing: the importance of setting boundaries to support our mental health.We tend to be good at setting boundaries for our children, but when it comes to taking care of our own needs, we often fall short.This episode encourages you to think about what it is that you need in order to feel happy and fulfilled and provides valuable advice on how to go about setting boundaries so that we can protect our mental health and in turn, model this healthy behaviour for our children.Find Sarah & Cat on Insta hereCheck out The Sleep Mums podcast hereBuy their brilliant book 'Sleep Better Baby' here

Hello and welcome to The Therapy Edit with me, psychotherapist's mum of three and author Anna Martha. Every Friday, I invite one guest to tell me the one thing they would most like to share with mums everywhere. So join with me as we hear this dose of wisdom. I hope you enjoy it. Hi, everyone. Welcome to today's guest episode of The Therapy Edit. I'm really looking forward to today because I have two guests. me. This is really rare. Often I'm chatting to one person, but I have with me the sleep mums. I have

Sarah Carpenter and Cat Cubey and they are the sleep mums. They have a podcast. You've probably heard of it. I've shared it. I've been very privileged and fortunate to go on there and have a chat with them. It is a podcast for parents, by parents, humans who miss a really good night's sleep and they have a new series out now. So go and check that out. They also have a book that was out last summer. It's called Sleep Better Baby, the essential stress-free guide to sleep for you and your baby. And I was having a little look. They have got some amazing five-star reviews on Amazon from really incredibly grateful parents. One of the reviews said that it's warm, lovely and full of great tips. And someone else said, it's down to earth, no judgment help and advice. So welcome

around the topic of sleep, which we all want more. If we want good quality sleep and our kids need good quality sleep too. So welcome Sarah and Kat. It's so lovely to have you here today. We've had some technical faffing, but we're all in one digital room together finally. So how are you both today? We're good. Yeah, I'm delighted to be here. Thank you for having us. And Sarah, you do lots of one-to-one work with people and Kat says you're a miracle worker with sleep, but you were working last night, won't you? You had a little baby last night. I'd have a little baby who was actually incredibly well behaved last night and much to his parents delight so yeah it was a a good night all round amazing so sleep yeah huge huge topic isn't it and you're you're just out there with all of

this incredible advice and practical tips for people how do you both sleep are you quite good sleepers we have it in our head that sleep specialist will be the best sleepers are you how's your sleep last night that's quite a funny one because um well we're sort of a bit ying and yang which is maybe why the podcast works quite well i love sleep i need my eight hours like um i yeah i really dig it if i could go to bed at the same time as my kids i'd be delighted whereas sarah manages to cope with about four hours sleep a night i don't know how she does it oh that makes more coffee just sharing that i'm much better on less sleep if i get the eight hours and i'm pretty grumpy so i've broken four and yeah lots of coffee works better for

me. Wow. She's like SES material I think. Yeah. Who Ders Wins thing. That would be amazing. I view sleep as one of the most important parenting commodities. I feel like I'm a better parent, I'm a better person, I'm a better friend if I have got some rest behind me. So yeah, all for the sleep advice. But we're not actually necessarily going to be chatting about sleep today, are we? Because I've had a little. But it's connected. It is so connected. But I've a sneak preview into your one thing and I'm really excited to chat about this but Sarah what what is that one thing if you could share one thing with all the mums what's the one thing that you two have chosen so we're going to talk about boundaries around mental health amazing so tell me a little bit

more about this I think that you know setting boundaries is such an important tool for like our kids to feel secure like that's why we use it but also for us as adults and I think that quite often we, you know, we maybe do think about it around our children, but we don't think about it so much around us and about how we model that to our children, which is obviously equally as important. Yeah. So what does this look like for you as an example? What has it looked like for both of you with regards to setting boundaries for your mental health?

So I think, well, on you go, Sarah. No, I think it's actually really difficult when people are faced with having to think about it like that and decide what their boundaries are going to be. And I think as parents and humans in general, you know, it takes time to really establish it. But Kat and I were chatting recently. You know, this does relate a little bit back to sleep. But I do survive on very little sleep. But for my mental health, I've realized that I do need to put things in place during the day.

And one of those things was, as Kat suggested, having like a little bit. a bath when the kids were at school. And that's made a huge difference to me. But I think for a lot of people, you know, just across the world, there's so much guilt around prioritising yourself. So it's finding the things that you can do that you don't feel guilty about putting those boundaries in place. So that bath has been something that you've, that you've put in place. And I guess the boundaries that you've had to build around that might be, you know, I could do this female, but actually I'm going to, you know, I'm going to protect the bath. I'm going to protect the bath because I know that that is important to me. So that's kind of the boundary, the boundary

building around, around doing that, you know, feeds back into your mental health. I think it's quite hard as well that, you know, often we feel super guilty about taking time for ourselves, which Sarah's saying in terms of baths, but that might be, it might not just be taking time for ourselves. It might be going out to work. Like Sarah and I were also talking about this, you know, that the kids are there in or even partners or friends kind of giving you grief if you're if you're trying to do um if you're trying to go out and work and do something that impacts their lives and so it's about being kind of clear I guess with yourself that you know that it's not clear with yourself and with those around you that it's it's okay yeah yeah because I guess some sometimes there

is resistance against the boundaries that we set for ourselves because we know that this is important and it feeds back into our family life and our mental health. But yeah, there can be resistance and confusion around that, you know, like, why do you need to do that? Or actually, that's not really convenient for me that you're prioritising that. And I think as well, like, I mean, you know, we struggled to not bring this back to sleep, but sleep's a really, really brilliant example for all of these things, you know, that for me getting my kids to go to bed and go to sleep to allow me to have some time with my partner or just some quiet time is a really, really important boundary for me. And some, you know, it doesn't mean that we don't go past those

boundaries, like if they're having a crap day and they need a bit more. But having kind of having a routine that allows me to do that is very important to me. And that's not important to everyone, but I know that's a personal one for me. And I think we talk about a lot like this lack of judgment towards parenting, particularly around sleep, because people will have different needs and different boundaries and it's okay to have them and sometimes I think we can feel really super guilty about having those cut off points I guess you know and same way as like whether like we're talking about having kids in our bed last night just before we started recording but you know some for some people the boundaries is that they want them there and for others it's that they really

really can't because they don't sleep and then they feel like they're less good parent I guess so all of the being kind of consistent i suppose knowing what your own limits are and of course as parents or as people as partners you know those those lines have to be a little bit soft sometimes because there are going to be things that get thrown up but on the whole having those kind of limits i think is a really really important thing yeah definitely and i think sometimes they require discipline though don't they yeah actually thinking you know in that moment what's more important is this need that's kind of popped up, actually. Is that a good, a good reason to to kind of make this boundary a little bit more flexible? But also, as you were talking about that

time in the evening, that I value so much and I've got kind of boundaries around bedtimes and things that we try to keep to as much as possible, but also boundaries myself around how I use that time. Yeah. Because, you know, we could just sit on the safer and just scroll the evening away, for example. But that's also okay. If that's what you need. Yeah. Yes, it is, but I recognize that that sometimes really affects the quality of my sleep, if I'm doing that. And, you know, I can be, I'm quite an emotionally sensitive person. I can scroll past some really sad stories sometimes that, you know, when you start kind of jumping into that story and imagining it as your story and that what it would be like,

and then you're kind of in this emotional state that actually isn't really conducive to sleep. So I find it, I have this boundary that I have to try not to go on my phone within an hour before going to sleep. so I have that kind of window. But that requires so much discipline because there are so many reasons to go on my phone. Oh, I'm going to add this to the calendar. Oh, I'm just going to check that. Oh, who used to be married to so-and-so

that I've just seen on tell you. You know, these kind of things that suddenly feel really pressing that you almost have to parent yourself and go, Anna, no. Go to bed. Yeah, so sometimes those boundaries are like, they require a lot of, they require us to discipline that child in us, don't they? Yeah.

I'm completely the same, like, I think not just, before bed but also in the morning Sarah and I talk a lot about morning routines and I think that's so important I used to work in a kids telly news show and they did all this research about and we had to be so careful about the information that we put in this news show for that reason

everyone's really sensitive in the first hour that they wake up historically that's also why morning news was always lighter and fluffier and I feel like in recent years it's all got you know we used to have like Mr Motivator So everything's become a bit more hard news in the morning. But the reason that it used to be softer and funnier is because emotionally it's tough for us. But we've completely bypassed it in terms of telly because we just pick up our phones.

And as you say, gets thrown into very heavy news stories or very emotional things on social media. And it can completely throw you. So I think having boundaries around that is so important. That's so fascinating. So we're often more sensitive to what we're consuming in the morning and the impact of that. So whilst we can't control what we're exposed to on the TV, you know, if that's turned on, perhaps, you know, we can control whether we turn the TV on at certain points of the day. We can control whether we had social media at certain points of the day.

But those are so much harder to act upon when we're tired. So much harder, yeah. Because, I think because you kind of automatically click into things or, you know, both in a kind of literal sense on your phone and in a kind of world. old sense like I feel like we've really tangented or I'm tangenting so I apologize but I guess it is a bit of a boundary you know historically like my granny used to be like you know don't go to bed on an argument but I find it very difficult to have any kind of argument you know in that kind of evening space so I think it's actually sometimes better to go to bed on an argument so that

you can have it the next day because as you're saying you know you're emotional you're tired it's not a good time to be having like any kind of intense conversation or discussion yeah absolutely now I'm completely with you on that sometimes when you wake from the morning you know that argument that you could have had actually you wouldn't you wouldn't have had it or you see it in a complete different light or perhaps you're a little bit more softer to the other person's kind of point of view have a bit more clarity you're reminding me of um when i was getting married we decided that we would have no wedding conversations after six o'clock for that very reason. So that's quite a like heavy bonus. There's a boundary for mental health and relationship

health, isn't there? But what other kind of boundaries might we set? So we've got some of the kind of the self-care boundaries. I love that idea of day bath, which just feels so, oh, nourishing and like, yeah, I bet the school pickup feels a little bit different. So when you've had that, and you've had that moment to yourself. But what other, what other kind of boundaries do we think we might think about I think it's like the other really important one that I come across a lot with clients is the eating. People really forget to eat in the thick of it, whether it's because they've gotten from work late or, you know, clubs and classes for children that push into that kind of dinner time period. But I would say that is one of my top five pieces of advice that I give to clients is make sure that you have had dinner, whether you have to have a kid's tea like cat loves, you know, five o'clock dinner. or you can pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-it so that when everyone's straight to bed, you can have it then.

But it's definitely something that people forget and really putting those boundaries in place around meals is so important. Because if you're up in the night or if you're up earlier, if you've got a full-on day at work, if you're doing that after an evening of no food, it's tough going. Yeah. So how you're nourishing yourself. Well, really what we're talking about are needs here, aren't we? And that's the importance of boundaries. You know, you put boundaries in place because it's important that every. one's needs are fulfilled, whether that is sleep, as we've talked about, whether that's food and meals because nobody wants to be hungry, or it's time doing things that you enjoy or with your kids or with your partner. And I think that the boundaries are there exist to prevent the

kind of overflow into where you can't cope with things, essentially. And we're all quite simple beings in that extent. You know, the things that we talk about with babies about trying to ensure their needs are met over a 24-hour period is exactly the same for us as adults. We need our needs met. Yeah. Yeah, so start with the simple ones because actually when I do sessions with moms, you know, sometimes they say, tell me three things that you need and that's often the moment where the tears come because there's this recognition that they, A, the needs have been so overlooked and B, actually, they've been so overlooked, don't even know what they are? I was going to say that. I remember being asked, what do you like?

And after I'd had my second child and wasn't in a great place, and I didn't know. I said, I felt like a piece of lettuce, like kind of floppy. I mean, I know it's like nutritious. Like, I just felt like nothing. And a friend of mine said, we were messaging the other day, and she said, I found it quite amusing, but she was like saying to her husband or a partner, and she said, I'm sorry you don't have time to exercise anymore,

but I literally have no personality and that's that how you kind of feel that it's like yeah your needs aren't being met but you don't even know what your needs are yeah so what have a think about what they might be and what boundaries you might put in place

I think starting small is really really important you know so it might be kind of like it's too big a deal to be like oh I'm going out for dinner I'm going out with friends because I need that space or I'm going out to do these things you know I think a day bath is a really good small space to start.

But it might even really simply be going to the toilet in peace because we know as parents that often that is not somewhere that you have your own space. So, you know, it can be little things like that. Only you know what they are going to be, though, I guess. And that's the difficulty of other people setting them apart from these needs of food and sleep and space. Yeah. So, yeah, so much.

think there about the boundaries that we set for ourselves. So an invitation to just consider your needs, even your basic needs. Start with those. Are they being met in your day? How are you acknowledging and respecting and honoring those basic needs? Where might you need to place some boundaries? Whether it's things that you start doing, maybe that daytime bath, maybe you just feel that actually I just need to make sure that I'm having a lunch of sorts rather than half a bag of Carrabo. Might it be around that evening routine, what might that be for you and how might you strip it down so it's small and doable and start there? Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you so much for joining us. I really encourage people to go ahead to get your book, Sleep Better Baby, the essential

stress-free guide to sleep for you and your baby. If that is something they need and stress is and sleep is one of those boundaries that needs to be addressed in your home. But I have some quick fire questions. Oh, here's the book. Kat's holding it up. Amazing. It's beautiful color as well. It's kind of that calming, greeny blue color that, yeah, we love that color. Yeah, I love that color. As you can see, my house is kind of dress. Yeah, you've got a lot of that color going on. You've got a lot of that color going on. And your nails as well. You're living, you're living the brand. Yeah, exactly. But I have got some quick fire questions to finish off. I'd love to ask you, Sarah, what's a, what's a motherhood high for you?

motherhood high gosh I think my biggest motherhood high came from my lowest motherhood high and that was when my middle child was really resistant to go to school when he studied P1 and then seven or eight weeks into the term my two boys got out of the car and my eldest one grabbed the little one's hand and said it's okay buddy I've got you and they held hands all the way into school so it was the most distressing time for us as parents because he really was not a happy bunny but in that moment just hearing it's okay buddy i've got you oh heart melted so yeah that was a high coming from a low and they're speaking out the words that they must have been spoken to which is amazing when you see them start like doing that little kind of parenting each other in a way that they have learned to which is wonderful i always think that thing my voice is their voice is such an important thing it is a real important thing but cat what's a motherhood low for you. Well, I was sort of struggling to think of one, but it also connects to being a high.

I don't know if it's a lower or a high. It was actually quite recently we all had that vomiting, but I'm sorry to talk about it, that it was kind of going round. My daughter painted the bathroom, and at that point, it decided to attack me, and I was cleaning it up as I was also. Sorry if anyone's got a vomit, a phobia. That's a terrible story. I do apologize.

But it just felt like that strength, you know, know, because like you can never imagine that you would be doing that before you have children. And then those, yeah, I know we've been talking about the importance of needs and things like that. But sometimes to kind of overcome your own for your child feels like such a straw. If it can feel like it's coming from a pace of strength and also amusement, because it became quite a good story. Sometimes you do have to laugh, don't you? And you come out the other end of those things and you think, wow, we made it, we did it. exactly what a battle we fought there in the bathroom and Sarah what's apart from the daytime

baths what's one thing that makes you feel good at the moment that you do um watching the little ones at their sporting clubs and classes like all three of them are just really come into their own personalities which i think again is really important when you've got lots of um children it's nice to see them finally be their own people and my three are so different but I've all now found their little bits of enjoyment from life. And just seeing them blossom is just amazing for me. Oh, what a wonderful thing, yeah, to see that. And Kat, I'm going to ask you that question as well because we've heard a couple of

Sarah's, but what's something that you do that makes you feel good? Well, I mean, the bath kind of originally came from, I would have a bath every day. If in doubt, take a bath is my kind of personal. yeah totally and also recently I've been I've been trying to force myself a little bit away from the scroll and read things whether that's magazines or just even even if it is like online to away from work things or parenting things or anything just stuff that I'm interested in and that feels quite nourishing because for so many years it has been all about parenting and then I'm interested in and that feels quite nourishing because for so many years it has been all about parenting and then or work or things like that. So, yeah, finding little things that are just interesting to me. Yeah, discovering what they are. Well, thank you so much, both of you for joining me.

It's been an absolute pleasure to chat with you and have a little thing about boundaries that we set for our mental health. So thank you. Thanks for joining me today. Thank you for having us. Thanks for having us. Thank you for listening to today's episode of The Therapy Edit. If you enjoyed it, please do share, subscribe or review,

because it makes a massive difference to how many people it can reach. You can find more from me on Instagram at Anna Martha. You might like to check out my three books, Mind Dave and Mother, Know Your Worth, and my new book, The Little Book of Calm for New Mums, grounding words for the highs, the lows, and the moments in between. It's a little book. You don't need to read it from front to back. You just pick whatever emotion resonates to find a mantra, a tip, and some supportive words to bring comfort and clarity. You can also find all my resources, guides and videos all with the sole focus of supporting your emotional and mental well-being as a month. They are all 12 pounds and you can find them on anamatha.com. I look forward to speaking

with you soon.